Why Did Mark Invent a Historical Jesus? Dr. Richard Carrier Explains

[00:00:00]Uh, next up we've got Filthy Heretic who had a couple questions maybe. Uh, what's up there Filthy Heretic? How you doing?

[00:00:07]Hi Neil. Hi Dr. Carrier. Can you guys hear me okay? Yep, we got you. Okay, that's awesome. I'm so excited to speak to you guys. It's such an honor to speak to Dr. Carrier. Um, so my questions surround Well, first off is Mark and the Pauline Epistles and the second is Mystery Cults. So, for the first question, in page 528 of On the Historicity of Jesus, before you talk about Ephesus and Colossae, uh, I might be completely butchering your argument here and I'm so sorry if I am.

[00:00:34]Please correct me. But, you seem to be implying that the verses that scholars usually use to defend Jesus as a historical person are ambiguous and this ambiguity is a problem for historicists.

[00:00:46]Uh, cuz we wouldn't expect this ambiguity, right? Uh, my question is that, uh, you say that Mark is a Pauline Gospel, right? Uh, you don't say this in the book, but you have said it on your blog and I completely agree with you.

[00:00:57]Yeah. Uh, and you also think it's soon after the death of Paul, maybe like kind of around a decade after 75 AD based on the parallels between Jesus and the nights.

[00:01:08]Um, Yeah. So, should because they're so close together, uh, I've thought before maybe a potential objection would be that, you know, shouldn't we interpret Paul through Mark if it's ambiguous and it wouldn't require this historicization model that you suppose? Uh, so, okay. If I understand Wait, did I lose my Okay, am I still here? Can people hear me? No, yeah, we got >> Okay, yeah, the audio changed in my headphones. Um, so let me see if I understand this. So, the the idea is that if Mark was reifying Paul or or why why would Mark reify Paul? Maybe that's your question. So, like why why If Mark is totally Pauline, why did he historicize Jesus? Is that Is that your question? Yeah, pretty much. Or like, uh, if Paul is ambiguous on this issue, uh, shouldn't we see Mark as representative of the Pauline school because of Yeah, okay. I see where you going with that. Yeah, okay. Um Yeah, so this this ties in with the question asked earlier about the rank Raglan role of this the the mythologization. And I do talk about this and on the historicity of Jesus. I can't remember if I also bring it up in obsolete paradigm, but the trend was so this is the Euhemerism point which it's element 46 maybe somewhere around 46 in chapter 5 of on the historicity of Jesus somewhere around there.

[00:02:23]We talk about Euhemerism where it was the standard of the time to take celestial gods or woodland mystical spirits or whatever and turn them into historical heroes. Like put them into history, make them kings or princes of particular places and so on. Even Zeus like they even historicize Zeus made him a king on an island somewhere in history and he was deified and everybody forgot that he was a historical guy.

[00:02:48]There was a trend to do this. It was actually the fashion to do this and in Jesus from outer space I use the example of Osiris cuz this happened to him.

[00:02:57]Where Osiris starts as a celestial god, but by the time that we get to the classical era, he's been converted into an actual historical pharaoh and in fact there are historians of that time trying to date him. Trying to figure out like well, when was he? Like where do you fit him into the chronology of the pharaohs of of Egypt? And now we actually have pretty good records of the pharaohs of Egypt. So we know there was no Osiris and there was this never happened.

[00:03:20]But the trend was to turn these guys into historical people and put them into history and then use that story to allegorize everything they did and everything they taught. And we have we're very lucky to have Plutarch writing a book to his friend who's a priestess of Osiris.

[00:03:38]It's kind of like mansplaining which is kind of funny. It's typical kind of like the sexism of the time. Where he wrote this elaborate book, but let me show you all the cool things I learned about your religion and and send you this book about your religion that suddenly I know more about than you.

[00:03:53]But anyway, he he does this and he's got his own little like pet peeves and stuff and he goes through all the different theories of of religion at the time and he goes through like allegorism and euhemerism he mentions. He goes through all these things and and he himself settles on demonic theory which is a whole it's a whole side thing. And I talk about it in the in Jesus from Outer Space, but what what you get from this is he talks he mentions the fact which he's writing to a priestess of Osiris, so he can't be wrong about it.

[00:04:20]As he says that that the real myth that priestesses and priests know and amongst each other is that Osiris was never historical that he descends below the moon, becomes incarnate and is killed by Typhon, their version of you know Set or the version of Satan that they had in that model, just below the moon and then he resurrects to glory and goes back. And in the Osiris cult this happens every year cuz they had cyclical time and the Jews had linear time, so they had it happen only once. That's totally explicable, but the the model is is that then then they wrote the stories about Osiris being a king on Earth and Plutarch says that that was meant to trick outsiders into not understanding the truth and to only and to convey the truth through allegory. So like the things that happen aren't really true, but you're supposed to understand the meaning of them and insiders would be taught the meaning.

[00:05:11]Anyway, so that's in that's in Plutarch.

[00:05:13]We have some other examples of this like Origen, the church father, he actually talks about this as how Christians do things. Just kind of giving away the game that the Gospels are like this that they're meant to be literal for lower ranking members of the church cuz they won't believe and or understand the fact that it's all allegory for something else etc. And then in Obsolete Paradigm I have a whole chapter showing that actually there's a lot of writing that's really attacking the people who are saying it's all allegory as immoral, vile, like Epstein Island people. Get away from them. Don't listen to anything they say.

[00:05:46]So there's this this push there's this war in the church between the allegorists and the historicists, or I should say historicizers really, cuz they're trying to turn this into an actual historical thing. And then shunning or banning and defaming the people who tell them that it's not historical. Anyway, that's the context, right? So that's why. So when when Mark decides to write an allegory for putting Mark putting Jesus in history to allegorize everything, he's doing exactly what every other religion of the time did, including the Osiris cult.

[00:06:15]They did exactly the same thing. Uh, and then he takes story like so he'll take for instance Paul's chapter 13 in Romans about basically you're supposed to follow just follow the government because God supports the government whatever yeah.

[00:06:28]He's got this elaborate stupid reason why you should not rebel against the state, right? This is just be a good lamb.

[00:06:36]And then Mark turns that into a story about Jesus doing a pithy thing about the coin of Caesar, right? Yeah, you should pay taxes cuz his face is on it.

[00:06:44]It's his money anyway, give it back to him. You know, that's dumb, but anyway, it's it's that's the myth that's a classic example of what authors of the time were taught how to tell a story to convey a message. So your message is yeah, you should still pay your taxes, don't be a rebel. And so you so you basically have this he creates a story about Jesus telling people in a village, here's here's the thing, here's the coin, yada yada. That's exactly how myths were constructed. Schools of the time literally taught you how to do that. That was like the whole several scholars have pointed this out like Brody and McDonald and stuff have done surveys of the educational literature that show that this is how you were taught to write stories exactly like that. And Mark kind of tells you this in Mark 4. So in Mark 4 he has Jesus is telling these parables, right?

[00:07:27]About oh, there's this guy and he did this thing and something happened. And then the disciples are taking a back and go, "What are you talking about? Who's this guy? What do you mean?" And he says, "Oh, oh, come on. Like are you guys idiots? Like that that's just allegory. Like you're not supposed to if you believe the literal story, you're an outsider and you're going to be damned.

[00:07:43]But if you understand the meaning of the story, then you're an insider and you'll be saved. And I tell this these parables so that they won't convert, right? Or they won't turn and be forgiven, right?

[00:07:53]It's like so you have to join us to be told the true meaning. And then [snorts] he turns around and says, "Oh yeah, the parable's not a real guy or whatever.

[00:07:59]It's it symbolizes this whatever moral message, right?" Um so he's kind of like telling you that the surface literalism is bogus. And if you treat it as if it's literal and true, you're one of the outsiders who's going to be damned. And if you understand what it's allegory for, like if you get the secret meaning of it, it's not really a historical guy running around, uh it's something else, then you're an insider and you'll be saved. And so anyway, that's like Mark practically says this, right? Uh so that's that's the model of it. As the gospels proceed, they become more and more historicizing.

[00:08:31]this little message of Mark, they they cut it. Uh they add more details that make it look more historical. And then by the time you get to John, he's outright saying, "You are damned if you think this is myth. This is freaking 100% literally true, and you're completely going to [ __ ] hell if you don't believe it." And you're like, "Wow, you're protesting a bit much, right?" Like the the insistence that the the art redaction of John has, that you better [ __ ] believe that this is literally true, is itself evidence that there were Christians going around telling you that it wasn't, right? So anyway, that that's the path that it took. Um and and I talk about that more in Obsolete Paradigm. I don't know if that answers your question. Hopefully it does. Yeah.

[00:09:09]>> bit long-winded. Oh sorry. Uh I'm really sorry, Neil. I know that I'm taking up time. Could I ask one more question on that before I get to Mr. Cole, so I will I guess. Uh yeah, you could Yeah, yeah, you can ask one more question as long as it's quick. And by quick, I mean half the time it takes to answer that last one.

[00:09:24]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, I'll be quick in my answer, too.

[00:09:27]Fair enough. Yeah. So uh yeah, so you say in the book that like, you know, theoretically there it takes there's like in theory, um it doesn't have to take any time between a celestial Jesus and a historical narrative, right? Like there is a bunch of time between, um, you know, myths of a celestial Osiris and then a historical Osiris.

[00:09:48]But, um, like if Paul if Mark is writing to a community of Pauline Christians in Rome, would they not like be a bit skeptical of Mark's presentation of Jesus or would they like recognize this practice? Yeah, good question. That ties right back into my previous answer, which is that the insiders, like Mark's writing for an insider audience, they would immediately know that this is allegory, right? Cuz they already know this. He's like, "Hey, look, I wrote this great allegory, just like the Osiris cult has. They make him a pharaoh or whatever. They allegorize this all the supernatural weird space [ __ ] Here you go." And the intention is to hide it from the outsiders who will think it's a real story about an actual Galilean guy running around. So, that's how. So, his his his his audience immediately knows that this is a fiction, like a Let's call it edifying fiction, right?

[00:10:34]It's It's like saying, "You know, Andor is a really great story about fascism and rebellion." And there's a lot of historical truths about fascism and rebellion in Andor, and you can learn a lot of things about human nature and government and how how you should behave and how how self-sacrifice matters. All this stuff.

[00:10:54]But, there's no Andor. There's no galaxy far away. Like it's all fake. But, if you think it's not, like if you're like the Galaxy Quest aliens who think it's real, then you're the outsiders, right? And what happens is that's how that's the audience Mark is writing for. Now, over time, decades pass, and more and more there are some Christians who are insisting that it's real, and they're fighting with the Christians who are saying, "No, you [ __ ] it's freaking allegory." And then eventually the historicists win. They they end up with more money, more members, and they kick the ass of the mythicists, shut them out, and they they don't grow as big, they don't end up with the the that are joining. They don't get the elite capture from the Elon Musks of the 2nd century and then you end up with you know the Donald Trumps of the 4th century selling historicism and banning everybody else. So like that's kind of the story of that. Anyway, that's my short answer.

[00:11:46]The long answer is answered in my books and stuff.

[00:11:50]I know how much time I just took there.

[00:11:54]Like can I ask question about Mr. Klose or would you like to get through some more people? Let me let me get through some more people. If if we work through everybody and you're still around feel free to request up to ask again about um That's a good way to do it. About it.

[00:12:07]Yeah. That's okay. Thank you guys so much. It's such an honor to speak to Mr. K. Thank you so much.

[00:12:12]>> Yeah, thank you. Good questions. All the questions have been good today actually.

[00:12:15]This is uh I know. This has been great.

[00:12:19]So let's see. I'm going to I'm going to drop you down there Filthy. You have a good night. Thank you so much. Uh >> [music]