The Future of Kalaupapa | KĀKOU: Hawaiʻi’s Town Hall

Added: 2026-05-31

[00:00:00]Broadcast of Kako are made possible by the support of viewers like you. Mahalo.

[00:00:04]And by Hawaii Catholic Community Foundation, creating a legacy that honors Hawaii's 200-year Catholic heritage while building a strong, faithfilled future.

[00:00:18]Hawaiian Native Corporation, honoring the legacy of Kalao Papa and the courage and resiliency of its residents.

[00:00:29]Since 1866, Kalawa Papa on Mulakai has been home to people living with Hansen's disease or leprosy. Thousands were banished there after being diagnosed with or even suspected of having the illness. Today, Ko Papa is a refuge for the few remaining residents, most who are in their 80s. So, what will happen next for this isolated peninsula?

[00:00:51]Tonight's live broadcast and live stream of Kako Hawaii's Town Hall start now.

[00:00:58]Aloha and welcome to Kako Hawaii's town hall live from the Harry and Janette Weineberg multimedia studio. I'm Yanji Denise. Palo Papa is one of the most isolated places in Hawaii. Surrounded by ocean on three sides and some of the tallest sea cliffs in the world. The peninsula on Mika's north shore became the site of forced exile for thousands of people diagnosed with Hansen's disease. Now, as the patient population dwindles, questions are growing about how Kalo Papa should be preserved, protected, and remembered. But before we look ahead, we must first understand its past.

[00:01:36]When the settlement was first established in 1866, there was no cure for the disease once known as leprosy.

[00:01:43]Fear shaped government policy. Families were separated. Many people sent to Kalo Papa would never return home. Over the years, PBS Hawaii's Leslie Wilcox documented the stories of patients, preserving firsthand accounts of how they lived.

[00:02:00]>> And in that time, you know, you you're here to you're exiled. You're here to die, never to see them again. So when when you have a funeral and you pass away, at least you have closure. But this to be living here knowing that you have children and family out and there's no phones before we just have the crank phone. We had no phone to call to Honolulu and we couldn't write letters.

[00:02:24]They stopped us. You know that >> they stopped you from writing letters.

[00:02:27]>> Well, they used to fumigate everything.

[00:02:28]You know the letters? They used to cut the corners and they used to fumigate it overnight in the fumigation room. And my father said all the times that they would sterilize them so they don't get children again.

[00:02:39]>> The suffering in Kalo Papa drew worldwide attention. Father Damian and mother Maryanne Cop devoted their lives to caring for patients there. work that would ultimately lead both to saintthood in the Catholic Church. But even in isolation, the people of Kalao Papa built community, forming churches, choirs, sports teams, and deep bonds.

[00:03:01]They created lives filled not only with hardship, but friendship, humor, faith, and resilience. What was it like living here when you were a kid? What was it like?

[00:03:12]>> It was all right. You know, nobody tells me what to do. We went to the beach. No fences around. I think we have to be home at a certain time. You know, there was a little bit little control on to stay up late. We we have to need our nap in the afternoon. You know, >> was good.

[00:03:32]I like it.

[00:03:33]>> Life in Kala Papa also meant living with the physical realities of Hansen's disease. Injuries that could worsen over time because patients often lost feelings in their hands and feet and many lost their eyesight.

[00:03:48]starting a blister and because they don't feel they keep using your hand even you have it dressed. Uh sometimes you get the pain but it doesn't last forever and then next thing you know you lose one finger, you lose the second finger and you always have these slits at the bottom bottom of the of the the base of the finger in the palm. and um also in the feet. So those two places on the body suffered the most uh damage.

[00:04:27]>> Effective treatments emerged in the 1940s and mandatory isolation officially ended in 1969. Still many residents chose to remain in Kalao Papa. It had become their home. Today, with fewer than 10 patients still living there, Hawaii faces the question of what should come next.

[00:04:47]Kako means all of us. And tonight, we come together to discuss Palo Papa's future. How should this land, sacred to Native Hawaiians and deeply tied to the history of Hansen's disease here in Hawaii, be cared for in the years ahead?

[00:05:01]And how do we honor the people who lived and built community there? We want to hear from you in our discussion. You can email or call in your questions. We're also streaming live at pbshawawaii.org.org and on our YouTube page. In our town hall tonight, we have government leaders, Native Hawaiian advocates, mulai community members, descendants connected to Kalo Papa, medical experts, and those helping to shape the future of this historic place. We do want to mention that Board of Land and Natural Resources Chair Don Chang did accept our invitation to be here tonight, but let us know a little earlier today that she was unexpectedly unable to attend. So let's begin now and I want to start with Dr. Khani Brady who's cared for patients at Kalo Papa for nearly three decades.

[00:05:44]Dr. Brady, when you think about Kalo Papa, what do you want people to most understand about the community that has been built there beyond the stigma of the disease?

[00:05:52]>> The peace and joy of the residents who had Hansen's disease in Kopa.

[00:06:00]They accepted their, as Boogie said on the few minutes ago, they accepted their uh place in Kalpapa. Kalpa became an ohana unto itself. Many if not most of the residents of Kalapa, 8,000 over the 150 years plus that we've had uh were oied by their families because of the fear and shame of the disease. the lack of knowledge about how it was spread and so their ohana their family became the other residents of the settlement and uh everybody was on a firstname basis. Kalo Papa moved as a unit. Uh we went to baptisms topside uh weddings, funerals and we were introduced this is Kalo Papa and we would all stand as one and uh uh that's uh how these patients lived. They uh accepted uh what had happened and they were remarkably joyful and peaceful uh and very very faithful. Uh almost all of them went not only to the Protestant church which had the first service but the Catholic church which had a mass 20 minutes after that everybody moved from the Protestant church to the Catholic church and uh every Sunday that occurred. And what is the community like today?

[00:07:36]>> It's a small community. When I started uh 25 or so years ago, uh there were parties every night. Uh that was the joy. Uh there was a bar that sold sold beer and wine. Uh Fuina's bar most recently. uh and uh it was uh a very active settlement. Now with the few that remain averaging uh in their 90s with a couple over 100, uh they are cared for and they are still close friends with each other and with the three koka uh of which I am a part uh that have taken care of them for 25 years.

[00:08:19]>> Oh, thank you for painting that picture.

[00:08:21]So descriptive. I think we really get a sense of what it was like to be there.

[00:08:25]Nancy Holman is the superintendent of Kalo Papa National Historic Park. Uh I want to show us a map here of the area that is under the jurisdiction right now of the park service. Uh because it really paints a picture. You can see that area all there in green encompasses Kalpa National Historical Park. And Nancy, when I think people hear that and especially when you see the map, you assume that the park service controls the entire peninsula. But that's not exactly how it works. Can you walk us through how the jurisdiction all works there today with the park service, the health department, and of course Maui County?

[00:08:58]>> Do you have a couple hours?

[00:09:02]Uh jurisdiction is complex and probably the easiest way to describe it is that um we have a different relationship to every land owner. Uh so the predominant land owners department of lands and natural resources uh that's about twothirds of the property a little less than a third correct me if I'm wrong uh department of uh Hawaiian homelands uh predominantly around the co settlement it's a little piece of department of transportation there's also privately held lands at the top of the poly belonging to RW Meyer and then there are three ecclesiastical organizations that have um facilities there as well so kind of private property um in holdings and then currently the park service and department of health co-manage the day-to-day operations. It's probably the easiest way to and it's own county.

[00:09:53]>> And if somebody were to want to visit, how does that work?

[00:09:57]>> Okay.

[00:09:59]Uh so when the National Park Service came in in 1980, so US Congress gave us a pretty clear rule book. Unlike a lot of national parks, ours is very specific public law. They cap the visitation at 100 people per day. Now, as far as I know, other than the canonization events, we haven't ever come close to that number over time. Um, and also there was a big nod to the fact that the patients have been running tours of Kalpapa for the public since the 1950s um through a concession contract with the state. Um so we extended that um in our enabling legislation holds that first right for commercial services for patients. Um up until just very recently there has been a patient who wanted to run those tours.

[00:10:48]>> Um Auntie Melly Watsoni is the last patient that I'm aware of who is interested in running public tours there.

[00:10:55]Um there are other ways to visit Kalapa if you're a descendant. Um there both the park service and kawana okopa uh both host people to come reconnect with uh the grave site if we are where we're at or where we think it is. Um you can be there if you are a guest and invited guest of a resident. So as the doctor was saying a lot of people used to come to Kalpapa because the patients were so actively inviting people down there as they age less and less. Um other organizations have been down in Kalapa lot so lots and lots of different ways to visit but currently um if you are a visitor like an actual park service visitor you have to be on a park service approved tour.

[00:11:39]>> Thank you for that. Dr. Diana Felton is the chief of the Hawaii Health Department's communicable disease and public health nursing division. Dr. the state health department has had responsibility for the patient settlement for its entirety. Under a bill just passed this legislative session. those obligations will change.

[00:11:56]Can you tell us a little bit about the changes that are that have now passed under this legislation?

[00:12:00]>> Certainly, the Hawaii legislation in Hawaii um that defines the Department of Health's role at Kalapa is really focused on patient care activities and taking care of the patients um and the individuals who live there. um at some point in the future when there are no longer patients there, the role of the department of health in in essential in essential goes away. Um and the changes in the bill really reflect that. So they'll go the way the bill is designed is that the changes will go into effect about a year after the last patient passes away. um and will transfer the last of DOH's activities and management activities to the other entities um at on the peninsula. And I think the most significant feature of the legislation is the county jurisdiction. So currently the department of health has jurisdiction and control of Kalo County which has co-terminous borders with the national park. Um, and it's just a really unusual uh set setup. There's nowhere else in the world where a health department runs a county. Um, and there were reasons for it for a long time. Um, but those reasons are changing and uh so in the latest legislation, the county jurisdiction will uh change to Maui County.

[00:13:28]>> Okay. Well, let's talk to the head of Maui County now, and that is Mayor Richard Bisson, who joins us here tonight. as the state does prepare for the transition that the doctor was just laying out there, what role do you see Maui County playing going forward? And and do you have a sense of I we know it's a year after the last patient no longer lives there, either because they've passed on or because they've moved outside of the settlement. Um but how are you preparing for this transition?

[00:13:53]>> Well, we're having discussions about this very thing. I think most people understand Maui is already made up of Mokai, Lai, and Kahave besides Maui Island. And so Kalbawo County is of course part of Malokai Island. And so I think it makes sense to most people that Maui County would would step in uh when the Department of Health is no longer um you know overseeing this. But as already mentioned uh the largest land owners there are DLNR and then DHHL. Um, so for us it's uh it's going to take a conversation mostly with our community and we want community engagement all the way through this. Uh we're prepared to step in um again if if there's no one else obviously uh willing to do it, but I don't want to make an assumption uh that we're the right group to step in without hearing from our community first. And I mean all of the folks on Mulokai and the descendants of those the Kahuana Kalo Papa folks that have been working on this for years. We want this transition to be respectful and collaborative and mindful of the preservation of of this very special aina. And so, you know, as the mayor, I I don't want us to sherk any responsibility should that be should we be the ones chosen to take it over. But I would have to say it's not an automatic uh decision and it's certainly not mine to make alone. Uh you know, we want to talk with our federal partners, our state partners, but mostly I think we want to engage our community uh and ask them who's best and if it's us, we're certainly prepared uh to step in.

[00:15:36]>> Okay. Okay. Well, one person of course who does represent those residents is Kani Rollins Fernandez who represents Mokai on the county council. Um, what are you hearing about from the constituents that you represent about some of their concerns about this transition? We know just based on some of the questions that are coming in and thank you for those who are writing uh that there's great interest in visiting the area. You know, how do you balance potential visitors uh and and given the historic nature and the and the specialness of this place?

[00:16:04]>> Yeah. Um, I want to thank Mayor Bison for always, um, you know, deferring to our community and supporting, um, you know, what it is that our community is asking for. Um, I think what we discussed was kind of first things first. Um, Department of Health's Kulana to the patients, um, you know, is is is coming to an end. Um, and we don't know when that'll happen. Uh Maui County is positioned to um you know quickly take over jurisdiction. Uh Maui County already has jurisdiction for uh the you know the rest of Mokai. Uh so it it makes sense. Uh we also have uhus with um National Park Service for fire and police that has existed and will exist for the duration of their uh lease with DHHL.

[00:16:59]Um there are some in the community that are interested in being a Mokai County.

[00:17:06]Um we have set up two uh departments under Maui County. The department of oe resources and the department of agriculture under u Maui County and it's it's taking you know several years uh to stand up these departments and to stand up a whole county Mokai County would take some time. Um, and and like I mentioned, um, we don't know when this one-year clock will start. And, uh, we we at Maui County would this wouldn't preempt uh, our community from becoming Mokai County if that's something that our community members would want to do.

[00:17:47]As far as public access, that's going to be a really big discussion that um, we'll we'll have after this. Do you think a year is enough to do all of the transition work that needs to be done? I mean, it sounds like a very heavy lift.

[00:18:00]>> So, we did ask the county um the administration and myself, my office did, um ask and work with Representative Mahina Poo Po to put in a two-year transition. Um and unfortunately, when the bill got to conference committee, it changed back from two years to one year.

[00:18:17]>> Okay. Um we've talked a lot about the land owners in this area. We want to show you one more map that really uh helps to illustrate just who owns the land in this area. If you can see here, uh the settlement itself is there in blue and you can see that's DHHL land, Department of Hawaiian Homelands, that's the settlement and cliff trail. And then there's another parcel uh over on the very side of your screen there. And of course, the Department of Land and Natural Resources uh owns the lion share of the peninsula and so they own that land. Department of Hawaiian Homelands does control roughly 1,200 acres or yeah 1,200 acres in and around Kalo Papa.

[00:18:52]Much of that under license of the National Park Service, the map that we showed you earlier in the program. Katie Lambert is deputy to the chair of DHHL.

[00:19:01]Katie, some Native Hawaiians see Kalpa as a place that should be ultimately under Native Hawaiian stewardship. What kind of conversations are you having at DHHL about the future of this place?

[00:19:11]>> Uh, yes. So we need to begin um consulting with our beneficiaries. So we are actually um the last island plan for Mokai because DHHL has its own planning process given the act. Um so it does engage with regional planning as well as island planning and the last Mokai island planned um was back in 2005. So it's overdue for discussions about what the community and our beneficiaries want with regard to Kalapa. back in 2005, um homesteading, that kind of things was probably not thought of. So, um the island plans didn't really talk about like the settlement area. It didn't contemplate, um what might happen if the last patient were no longer there. Um but there was community usage contemplated.

[00:20:05]um there was um you know an idea of having a community center built for historic and educational reasons. So we do need to engage with our beneficiaries again um update the island plan. One of the big topics will be um listening to our beneficiaries really really closely about how they envision the use of Kalapa um going forward. Um, you know, there is a desire to perhaps revisit homesteading in the area. Um, we just have to be really really thoughtful um about how we go ahead and do that post um transition when it is back in DHHL hands. And of course, we do have the general lease with um the National Park Service. And so they actually do manage currently day-to-day operations. So, it involves a lot of discussions with both our beneficiaries and then with the National Park Service as far as continuing our relationship with them for management.

[00:21:09]>> Yeah. And how long does that is that lease in effect? Is that something that's renewed on a regular basis or is that in perpetuity? How does that work?

[00:21:16]>> No, it's a 50-year lease and it began in 1991 and will expire in 2041.

[00:21:23]>> Okay, that was some good quick math there. I like that.

[00:21:26]Uh I mean that is very interesting if you think about first of all the sensitivity of the place but also just the difficulty of access. Do you think it's realistic to have homesteading there? Well, those are parts of the discussion and um we do have Mickey Allah here who's actually lived that life and so I think some of the discussions is while it is definitely something that DHHL and its officiary should explore um there needs to be some reality grounded because of the sacredness and because of just the logistics right I mean people who envision themselves living there need to understand that is not a daily commute back and forth from town in Kalapa and topside. Um, and just the fragileness of the area, right? I mean, there's a lot of environmental considerations and so you need you need beneficiaries who really understand that deeply, right?

[00:22:25]That it's not it's not homesteading in the way that we've known it topside, right? It's a very it can be homesteading of course but it's a different way of malama you know that particular area and we do have other examples right we do have other examples in places like Kahikinui um King's Landing of beneficiaries who are doing it in that um in that way um and so we just have to be really really um deliberate in our discussions and honest with ourselves elves about what's possible in >> Thank you for that. Degrade Vanderbilt is part of Kahana Okal Papa, a group of residents, descendants, and community advocates focused on preserving the history and future of this place. What would your group like to see happen there?

[00:23:18]>> Well, um I think what the group would like to see is what the patients would have liked to have seen.

[00:23:30]Uh, Kawahano Kalapa is an organization that was uh conceived and fostered by the patient residence. It is the patient residence organization. We're just I was a founding member but and I think we've put out we have a great website and one of the one of the brochures on there is the future of Kalapa and and the main sub subtitle will the voices of the people finally be heard and I think that's very important because for the last several years there's been a transition ition planning process being conducted and it's been by all government agencies. It hasn't included a topside community. It hasn't included the patients organization in Kalapa which has uh federal authorization to operate at Kalapa just like MPS.

[00:24:39]And so I think uh the mayor mentioned community engagement. I think that's still something that really needs to be done is to get community engagement and get the topside community and and others involved uh and not just the government agencies. And this new bill that passed 1432, it uh Senate Bill 1432. At the end of it, it said any further discussions on the transition planning of Kalapa will include Kahana Okalapa and a topside community organization.

[00:25:21]And I think that that's the the main thing that needs to be still done. And it's going to it's going to be a lot of discussion. It's going to take some time because nobody but the government agencies have been involved up to now. And uh there's a another great uh uh pamphlet out there called Machai Future of a Hawaiian Island. This was done in 1984 by a group of Machai people and it outlined the current short-term long-term goals of Machai map. And as you know, Machai is different from every island. They fought off all the development. Nobody messes with them now. But they they have a place where all the young people are coming back now because it's amazing that they're leaving big jobs on the mainland, coming back, taking over the schools and everything else. And uh uh I asked one girl about why she came back. She was making over $100,000 a year on the mainland. She's making $40,000 on on Machai. and she says, "You don't know what peace of mind it is to know you can raise your family and live a lifestyle and it isn't going to be changed by the influx of a lot of tourist or other government actions." So that's u that's where a lot of the discussion really has to focus on.

[00:26:56]>> Thank you for that. I want to turn now to another resident, Mikala Pascaya, a cultural practitioner from Mulikai. also has worked as an interpretive park ranger with the park service at Kalo Papa. From the conversations that you've been having, do you agree that the community has not perhaps had enough of a voice or how do you feel like these discussions are going and what are your biggest concerns with this transition?

[00:27:18]Um I think first off it's acknowledging that Kalo Papa the the composition of the Kalpapa community itself has been changing and shifting where there were hundreds of patients now we're down to a small handful and in that in the last 10 20 years it's really been all of the workers uh for the department of health and for the park service who have filled in all the roles in a community to keep the the fabric of the social fabric and that the the the mana and the spirit of Kalopa alive. And so I think um just recently with um the DHHL taking a different look at how they would like to manage uh their lands there was engaging the Kalopa community and starting to see them more than just workers in that with the park service at one time 75% of the staff were Mokoans from topside they're Hawaiian they were they all are considered homesteaders but I'm not sure how many homestead communities Everybody wakes up in the morning and says I my whole duty today is to make this place a better place is to honor the kuna and if you don't do your job you get kicked out you get fired and so kind of when you walk around Kalo Papa there's a pride and a dedication and if you live there and work there in a time where you had to look a patient in the eye and make a commitment to look after this place to remember them to to steward their story and make sure nobody forgets yet and to do things in a very particular way. They want the grass cut this way. Don't cut that tree. That's my They tell you all the stories. There is a sense of duty as a Mokayan that this is the mole of this aa before even this chapter of history. Mokai is centuries old and we're going to be around for a long time. And so the primary stewards of this story should be the people of Mokai. And so I'm gonna say that there need should be more conversation with the Colopa community because they're the ones there dayto-day but they also go back home topside to their families and they share a lot of conversation there. So there is a little bit of outreach but with the broader community there really needs to be a space where we can have safe conversation um while acknowledging the eha the kaha the sadness and the hurt um that is the legacy of the history of ko papa and that needs to be put in a very safe place so that we can actually have productive conversations about what that future looks like. Thank you for that perspective. And you did mention the history before it became a settlement.

[00:30:01]And for more on that, I want to turn to historian Devana McGregor who's a founding member of the ethnic studies department at uh Monoa. Professor, long before Kalpa became a settlement for people with Hansen's disease, this peninsula had its own history, its own communities. What can you tell us about what life was like there before the settlement and who may have been there?

[00:30:20]>> Yeah, thank you. Um, well, I just want to say I I came upon this uh doing more research into the history of Kalpa before the settlement. um when asked by the National Park Service to try to find descendants of the people who lived there before the settlement was set up uh because they acknowledged that those those descendants might also want to have a say in how the future of the uh peninsula you know shapes up. So it was an honor to do that and I I put out a um a broad uh a net to through the office of affairs quola and I I um I got all the names that I could find of anybody who had lived there at any time. So I all the people who had applied for land awards during the Mahel's time all the people who had paid taxes at any point in time these are all records that the park had collected and then I did additional research to see and so I put together all these names and put out a call and say you know does anyone you know have a connection and um you know it went over about three or four years time and I most of the calls I got back or the responses I got back were people who said, "Well, that's by name. I would probably be related. What can you tell me about my connection to this place?"

[00:31:45]And so, it seems that um a lot of the people who were originally there and then displaced and there was, you know, different stages in how the people were displaced, some went voluntarily when it was first proclaimed that this would be a settlement and they were offered to move away and they they had families on Kauaii or Oahu. So the the the families are all on every island. It's not just on Mokai or just on Oahu. And um but it seems that when they were dispersed that and then claw papa became associated with the Hansen's disease that um people lost that connection or no longer passed on the knowledge to the next generation.

[00:32:30]So there were very few people who came forward as I said um there is evidence that at in the last stages of the displacement there was land that the government acquired in Wala Puet on uh east end on Mokai and they um they had the the families could select which land they wanted to move in but there were maybe only about 20 parcels there and by then there were not as many people you a lot of them had already started the transition off Um and uh in the last stage in under the provisional government after the queen was overthrown and the provisional government came to power that's when the final eviction forceful eviction took place and and it also coincided with the policy of the provisional government to use the the designation and the declaration of someone as having leprosy as a way to isolate political opponents.

[00:33:27]And there's a lot of evidence in many stories that you hear from different islands that people were not really did not really have leprosy but they were proclaimed to have leprosy and and banished to Kolab I mean sorry to Kalpa as a political u uh move and you can see that in that you know now because they were going to expand the number of people they were isolating to the to the peninsula they needed to finally get rid of the last of the people who had lived there traditionally. But if we look at the the records of the of the of Kalo Papa, I I was you know kind of refreshing my memory. So in in the time um you look at the time before Kamehahha and who how the islands were. Am I something?

[00:34:12]>> Yeah, I think we're having a little bit of audio trouble here. So we just want to make sure that everyone at home can hear you just right. But but if you look at the time before Kamehahha um Mokai had been um uh fought over between um the chief of Maui at you know Kahikili and also before them and then the chiefs of Oahu and then there was also within Mokai there were there were conflicts between the chiefs on the windward side of the island which is where Kawapa is and why Kolu Pelikunu and then other chiefs on the south side and and they're they were contending over control of Makai and at one point the chief of Oahu aligned with the chiefs of the south and they they controlled Kalo Papa. So Kalpa had gone back and forth in the in the census in 1841. It showed that there were um 700 people living at Kalpa. And then um in 1853 which is when the Mahel rec was was going on and when the land award applications would have been happening there were 340 residents um in Claw Papa and many and those who you know among them making claims for their plots of land and in the land award claims they're talking about you know the cultivation of ko the cultivation of sweet potato you know growing of woke so it it was a it was a a threat thriving community prior to it being set aside as a leprosy uh settlement. And um there was even times where they I think even during the time of Hanses Mickey knows better, but they were even at one point they were exporting poi to the rest of the the north island north valleys on the on the island. So, Kala Papa and all of the northern valleys actually in traditional times were more populated areas because they, you know, they they they could support larger populations.

[00:36:12]And um so you know foreseeably clapa could again support a larger population although a lot of the streams and the changes in the ecosystem probably would un not couldn't support it as it did at the time but it was a very active and thriving community uh prior to it being set aside for that purpose.

[00:36:33]>> So so much history that we've heard about just in our you know initial discussion tonight. I want to get to uh some of the questions here and they really sort of explored the tension. Um so I want to read a few of this and and and Mike, I would like you to take this on. Um why can't I hike down the trail to visit? $5 million for National Park Service and no public visitation. That's from Steve. There are so many children across the state who don't know anything about Kalapa is part of the future plan to include educational materials, even trips to the peninsula. I wish I had learned more growing up. That's from Kristen. So there's a natural curiosity I think that we all have to this place.

[00:37:08]You see these idyllic video of what it looks like and and the fact that there has not been large-scale development makes it sort of you know this window into the past. At the same time um you know this this person is asking why can't I just hike down and and take a tour on my own? I mean how do we figure out what the appropriate level of outside interaction is with this place?

[00:37:29]>> I'm gonna say first off Mokai people are pretty protective of Mokai period. So they scrutinize everybody. Kalo Papa has three layers extra of scrutiny um because it's a special place and um also it's isolation. So first off the same challenges we have topside um roll over to Kalopapo with mochule uh very limited flight access when the weather is bad um that it's really hard to get in and out.

[00:37:58]So um access or you're going to be fit and hike down a three-mile trail. um that is very arduous. So it already the the access is already physically discriminating in a lot of ways and then on top of that the accommodations it's a very small place. We don't have a landfill there. So we manage trash in a very different so if you think of everything it takes to just live a day-to-day life. um waste management, septic systems, um uh emergency response and uh food, water, shelter, all of those things. Like there they are very very limited the accommodations. And so it there's as the population is diminishing that 100 uh visitor a day cap remains there because there needs to be all this support to ensure those things safety and um comfort for people are coming in.

[00:38:53]>> Yeah. Nancy, I'd love for you to to weigh in on that about the appropriateness of of having large scale visitation to this place.

[00:38:59]>> I think it's tricky. I I think I'd go back and also help people understand that the um access to the trail crosses private land. So, um those land owners are working through their own process and what it looks like to have visitors um cross their property from a liability standpoint. um I can't speak for them, but I can tell you that is um a pretty big issue and that parcel is partially outside the park service boundary. So our ability to to negotiate for that is somewhat limited. Um I think it's an interesting needle to thread overall. Um so I've been at the park about four and a half years. My background is in education. I think a lot about um remote places, how to share those places with people. Um I I think timelines have a big piece of this. The patients have told their own story um through this process. We have told a limited portion of that story because they were able to tell the story themselves.

[00:40:02]the park service itself, um the National Park Service, we protect very special land and things that um are either tied to really important stories or shaped by very important stories.

[00:40:17]So that piece of the puzzle of preservation has to be balanced with the education aspect. And again, Congress was pretty clear with us when we came in in 1980 that this is a site for inspiration, education, and research.

[00:40:33]And that's partially because it's been so protected. Um, when I think about timelines like this place has been around for a long time, the patients were there for a long time.

[00:40:44]We're we're starting um the transition of management activities has been moving since the 90s. But that aspect of storytelling that's just beginning to transition. And what does that look like? What is the role of the park service in that? Like it is half of our mission. Um and half of the reason we were entrusted to come into this site and what that looks like in the future and which story is told and how that story is told and who tells that story. that's just beginning now as we establish all of these different um partners who have already been telling the story, people who've wanted to tell the story but don't think the time is right yet, the patients who are still alive and can tell their story. So, I think that's a really sensitive um thoughtful place that we need to step into and continue that public dialogue around and it's not just us.

[00:41:38]>> Yeah, Dra, I would love for you to weigh in on this.

[00:41:41]>> Yeah, I I would just like Community outreach has been a big part of Kaano Kalapa. Over the last few years, we've reconnected over a thousand families with their descendants at Kalapa and they've been just amazing, happy, emotional, uh, wonderful experiences.

[00:42:00]We've have traveling exhibits that have gone to every island. Uh there's a big one at uh uh Winward Community College now on the royal family's connection to to Kalapa. Uh we've gone to all the uh a lot of the Hawaiian immersion schools in every island with books and given out books to the schools uh on on Kalapa.

[00:42:30]And so that has been a big part of of of Kawhana's uh um mission is uh outreach uh and community education because you're right people you talk to people 40 50 years old ask them about Kalipa and they they kind of draw a blank and uh because it's just not taught in the schools and that's the other thing we're working on now uh is to hopefully get it into to the schools.

[00:43:02]>> Dr. Felton, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well.

[00:43:04]>> Yeah, I just wanted to briefly mention about access and the restriction of access because we understand this is a concern for many community members. And while we're talking about the future of Kalapa, I do want to just remind everyone that we still have patients living at Kalapa. and given their history and their wishes and the history of Hansen's disease and the stigma surrounding it, privacy is a really really important thing for people that have experienced infectious diseases like Hansen's disease and particularly that one in particular and the patients really value their privacy and I think we would be remiss to not mention that a big part of the reason why there's such restricted access there is because that is the wishes of the people who live there and who the place is currently for and that they are very protective of their space and privacy and we we really value that on their behalf.

[00:43:58]>> Yeah, that is a very important point.

[00:44:00]Please ma >> build off of that. Um there are a lot of etiquets that the community has been exercising that are or some of the rules that they're hard soft rules and hard rules but a lot of that was founded upon caring for and respecting patients and their wishes and not wanting to traumatize them because of the way we live life the social way we live life today. So example um they used to get py they used to get punished for not having their shoes on like we saw in the opening clips where they talked about the damage to their their hands and feet because they didn't have sensation and so they would be scolded and made sure that they had footwear on so they wouldn't get hurt. And so we always walk around with our shoes on um so that it doesn't trigger for them memories of either some unfortunate incident happened to a loved one or to them themselves. So there's a lot of things that just being part of the community that's just how we just and people when newcomers come and they're like why you guys do that and we're like that's just how like and and so we explain oh because the patients used to always make us do this or that and we honor and alohim and it's hard um to bring that out to a bigger society who believes in their rights and democracy and they just think they need to have a say and you know like it's we're taking a vote and we're like no we just going do them like this cuz that's how auntie like it you know and if she says no then it's no and tomorrow she might change her mind and so that fluidity um and it's just grace and aloha and when you come to live in Kalapa you embrace that so now we are thinking what are the things that make Kalapa Kalapa is it just the history is it just the landscape is it the physical reminders you know the the buildings and and the grave markers Or is it people who are really living the history and the story and able to share that authentically? Because when you get there, you feel that you feel the stories coming still being perpetuated and living and breathing around you.

[00:46:11]>> Yeah, that is such a beautiful description. Thank you for that. Dr. Brady, there's a question here from Eric and Kyua who says, "Can you share with us your interactions with patients as they transition to the next chapter? How closely are you working with the families and and how is the community coping with those transitions?

[00:46:28]>> The patients are part of the family and I'm u tremendously privileged to be part of that family. So the things I've heard from patients are a good deal deeper than uh in a traditional uh continent.

[00:46:50]Uh Dr. patient relationship. Um, their concerns, their joys, their fears, and their ohana, for those of them that do have Ohana family, uh, are part of that interaction. Uh, usually very supportive. Uh, >> thank you.

[00:47:15]>> Everybody is by first name. Uh, I'm just Khalani. Uh it's not Dr. Khani, it's not Dr. Brady, it's just Khalani.

[00:47:26]Uh when the canonization of Father Damian uh was anticipated uh a group of Kane uh came to my office and uh walked in and said, "Khalani, we're going to Rome for the canonization.

[00:47:48]are you going to Rome for the canonization?

[00:47:52]And I sort of fibbed. I said, I think I'll watch it on television. And it was like I had insulted their mothers. And everybody left silently. About two minutes later, the leader of that group came in and said, "Khani, you are our koka.

[00:48:14]You take care of us. We are going to Rome.

[00:48:18]you are going to Rome to take care of us. And there were about 15 of them. Um, Robert Casemiro, a very, very good friend and I put on a gayla fundraiser in Wiki Ki and raised a lot of money because of course the do can't pay for their room trip. Um, and they can't pay for their room trip. Uh, so we raised a whole bunch and Bishop Larry Silva from the Catholic Dasis. uh covered our airfare, our hotel, our daily tours, uh mass, uh visiting uh in St. Peter's for the canonization, meeting the pope, um it was just one group. There were also 550 pilgrims from Hawaii, from all the islands that went as well. But um we were one family and uh very close.

[00:49:20]>> Thank you. Um Katie, this is a question uh that says and and this kind of dubtales to what Professor McGregor was sharing with us about who the descendants are of this place before it became a settlement asking shouldn't the descendants of those who were removed from that area have first dibs and if not why not? That's from Kayone. Can you trace the lineage of of the you know of the folks who are on the list to the actual places? Do you know who are the descendants of that place?

[00:49:49]>> Um the department wouldn't necessarily have that information. The department actually is engaging in administrative rule making processes. So currently um with the exception of LAI which is kind of um where the idea came from there's a wait list right and the weight list um for fairness purposes goes by oldest application date right um there are older versions of how the weight list works but modern it's it's an islandwide weight list um so with regard interestingly enough with regard to certain areas like Lai has a specific specific weight list just for people who live already on Lai um uh or were connected to Lai. So that idea is being carried over because we do have other communities where lineal descendency or a connection to that place is really really important. Um so for example that's discussions with actually also on Malokai um our King's Landing community um in Hana we want to develop and it's really important that basically people who already are living in Hana and understand the conditions much like Kalapa um have priority. So there's actually already movement um and amendments to how we um manage our weight list to try to accommodate lineal descendency. Um but it wouldn't necessarily like the department wouldn't know that, right? So if once the rules are promagated um it's like at the administrative end of it, my understanding is that it's with a review and then it has to go to the gov. But once they're final um you know and there's opportunities presented those who do have um claims to certain areas they would need to show us how right and it would be part of um the intake process right so just like um needing to qualify your blood quantum right so there's a process and there's paperwork and so that would be an additional step for um beneficiaries who are interested in and have lineal links to those areas and want to be considered for those areas.

[00:52:16]>> Thank you. We got some practical questions here for the mayor. Um, this one comes from Trent. Is the county ready to assume responsibility going forward with fire recovery and transition of water rights and constant flooding problems seems like a lot to handle. Sheila is asking, "Is Maui County ready to handle this transition?

[00:52:32]What are the costs? Who pays? Will our property taxes go up?" Yeah, those are all the questions that I meant uh when I spoke earlier about the decisions that have to be made. As pointed out by council member, it would be logical that Maui County, which is already Mokai Island, except for this one portion, uh would be the one to step in.

[00:52:55]Uh but of course we got to talk about all of the revenue sources, the funding sources because right now um obviously the park service puts in uh the lion share. Uh will that continue? That's a conversation we'll need to have with the National Park Service. The department of health was a huge part of the funding that was going on there. not just for salaries but just you know in addition to that uh if they're no longer connected you know will they continue to contribute to that um you know DNR DHHL they are two major land owners are they going to you know support uh funding um and so I think all of those questions are fair questions which is why we're going to have community engagement and sounds like it's starting with those questions because um there are people who are gonna who are going to bring that up and we want to hear all of all sides Uh this isn't an easy decision. Um and as far as timing is concerned, we don't get to choose when something like this happens. Uh you know, when you're government, you just have to, you know, take on the next thing that comes your way. You don't get to say, "Wait, wait, we're not ready. Give me that next week or next year." Um you know, there's certain things I think that we can control. Uh but in this instance, uh this has been talked about for a while.

[00:54:12]This has also been uh anticipated that this would happen. Uh but what we haven't done is filled in the details.

[00:54:20]And of course, we're just as curious about all of those things as the other.

[00:54:24]And and that's why I I tried to preface this in the beginning. We're not here to say, "Hey, we're here to take over." And it's and there's nobody else in the conversation. We're like, if you folks want us to do it, then let's talk about all the things that are going to require us uh or make us able to do it. Um so that we're not jumping into something that we're not ready for. Um but again, this is the start of the conversation and as we've talked about, it's mostly community engagement, listening to all of our partners at whatever level they're at. you know, we've got tremendous support from um you know, Senator Shots, from Congresswoman Tokura who've been very active in this. You know, maybe they can help us with the funding piece. I mean, there's so many uh things we haven't yet explored, but I think the overarching theme for tonight is just the respect that we need to have for this one-of-a-kind place. There's no other place in the world like it. And recognizing that should guide how we move forward.

[00:55:23]>> Okay. Council member, I would love to have you weigh in on this as well.

[00:55:26]>> And um the mayor is absolutely correct.

[00:55:28]It's it's going to be like a constant uh conversation that we'll be having um with the with the larger community. Um I started to have this conversation um with the different state agencies after department of health introduced um SB1 1432. Um and in my council committee, we did have uh two meetings. Um one last year where I invited the departments to present their kana and what you know that transition looks like for each of the different state agencies. Um and then this past January, we had another meeting on Mokai and Kukakai. Um and again invited the state agency, the federal agencies uh to um you know speak to what the transition would look like, who would take on the kulana as uh department of health transitions out. Uh National Park Service would be uh taking on or continuing uh the work that they're doing with managing the the roads and the um uh the water um the structures and those types of things that they're already doing. Um and for the county as I mentioned earlier we already have anou uh to provide additional you know uh service with fire and uh police and those are already in place. So whatever it's, you know, costing the county, which I think is minimal to to nothing, um, right now that, um, but that support to NPS is already in place even before, uh, Kalawal County is incorporated into Maui County. And what I wanted to also share a little bit earlier to the question about access. I know national parks when we talk about parks there's an implication of recreation and as everyone saying here like that is not this space. This space is for spirituality for reverence of the history of this place. It's for connection and for healing. and it it's not for extraction.

[00:57:41]Um, and so you know that that kind of conversation about when Dr. Brady is describing how he's part of the family.

[00:57:48]Why? Because he's been contributing.

[00:57:52]He's been giving more than he's taking and they want him to be part of that community, part of that family because he's given so much. And so when people are thinking about, you know, access and and going there, are they thinking about giving and contributing or are they only thinking about taking? So I think that's like a really important question that folks have to ask themselves.

[00:58:18]>> Yeah. I mean, I think that you're absolutely right that the idea of a park, we do think it is a place to recreate and go have fun. And this is a very different kind of park. I I know you want to weigh in on that and then I I want to get to uh Dr. Felton in a minute.

[00:58:30]>> A nice queue up. Um, so I I do want to get in Congress when they establish the park, they establish it specifically for inspiration, education and research, >> not recreation. Right? So I think it's really important to understand like that is the sort of rule book that we were given as the National Park Service when we went in and that remains. Um so the National Park Service, we have a lot of things that we do because we represent and we protect these places for all future generations of all people. Um not just a certain small group. So it's really important that when we're doing work, we're thinking outside of like all of the stakeholders, right? Not just like a handful. Um so it's really important as we go into planning process um we have to include all that. So there was an over 10-year planning process to create the general management plan for the park that speaks to that idea of uh kokua to the place that if you can you come experience the place be inspired by it but there also is a vision in that plan for an opportunity to be there in a way that does give back to Kalapa. I think that's a real nod to the history of the place and how people have given to that place over time, the patients themselves, the community as a whole, the um individuals that came in to take care of the patients and to take care of the land and the infrastructure around the PA patients. That's been going on for 150 years, right? So, um again, that plan exists. It was signed in, uh 2021.

[01:00:07]It's on our website. Always happy to talk about it. As a matter of fact, talk to your friends, neighbors, and family members. they probably work for us if you live on Mulai. So, um, talk to them if you have questions about that plan, but it it's out there.

[01:00:18]>> I want to get to Dr. Felton. Um, and just for, you know, sort of a clarification, when the transition fully happens, what will the Department of Health's role be, if anything? I mean, given how long that you have been stewards of this place, what will the level of involvement be or will there be none?

[01:00:34]>> Yeah, that's a great question. You know, we care for the patients, but we care about the patients. We care about their legacy. Um we are ready and planning to support uh you know the jurisdiction, the county, the national park service.

[01:00:49]We intend to be able to continue to provide the historical uh knowledge and experience. Um but many of our activities will decrease. For example, we will no longer have um sort of the authority to run a store um which we do now. Uh we will um and there are numerous other activities as has been mentioned. Many of the larger activities that used to be done by the department of health to manage the place have been solely transitioned to the National Park Service. Care for the electrical system for example um the water, the waste, um so many different things that the Department of Health now does not do and is just there to support. Um we think eventually over an extended period of time but eventually we are unlikely to have staff remaining living um on the peninsula. Um we do have a number of environmental um remediation projects that are expected to be many years long um that we will continue to manage um you know help to fund with um state resources as they are now. Um, but these are big projects that will take a long time and require, you know, added state resources to resolve. So, we'll definitely still be involved in sort of repairing environmental um damages and fixing some of the areas um and as support and as much as we can do to help maintain the legacy and the sacredness of the place.

[01:02:24]>> Degree, I know you wanted to weigh in. I um uh I just wanted to let you know that um Kawhano Kalapa was formed by the patients uh especially Bernard Punikaya. He took the lead on that because he wanted an organization in place made up of residents, the descendants, and longtime uh uh friends of the community because as their numbers grew smaller, they needed an organization in place that would make sure that their voices would continue to be heard and the legacy they wanted for the future of Kalapa would be uh obtained and and continued in perpetuity.

[01:03:09]And in 2008, um the Senate Concurrent Resolution 208 was an apology resolution signed by all the senators to the people of Kalapa.

[01:03:23]And yet the organization that they formed and uh so their voices would continue to be heard. They were not even included on the transition planning team. So it's really important to uh seek the knowledge of the residents. There's so few of them now. There's only two left.

[01:03:48]Uh and uh and if you wouldn't mind, could we have a minute of silence for me Watu Nuki who just passed away. Her funeral's tomorrow. Uh she was one of the last three living at Kalapa. The remaining two are hund 102 John Aruda and Winnie Herata who is 95. So, as Maybison said, you can't just wait around. You don't know when you're going to have to act, and it could be very soon. So, >> thank you for sharing that with us.

[01:04:26]>> If if if we could just have a moment of silence for me, I'd appreciate it. Is that possible?

[01:04:34]>> I I think I think it's possible. Um we we have a limited time, but I do I appreciate you raising those names and sharing those stories with us tonight. I think that's very important especially you know given what the mayor did say that there is um you know that we don't get to choose the timing as you acknowledged and that it could come soon and you know given the bill uh a year after that it turns over to the county and so these questions have to be addressed but thank you for sharing those names with us and sharing those stories with us. I do want to make sure that we include enough of the audience tonight and um professor I would like you to take this because again we are getting so many questions tonight about access um and there is this real tension because we know this has the potential to be a place of learning but of course we've heard a lot about having to respect the place and all the traditions that that you outlined for us. So uh professor McGregor if you would sort of give your thoughts on this. This person is asking, "Will annual passes be available to go to the national park?

[01:05:30]Seems like a wondrous place to visit and experience the beauty, but also learn the history." Some people feel like they need to be in the place to truly understand it. A niece of the patient says, "I go there every summer. I would like to see the future of Kalo Papa remain Kalo Papa allow families that loved ones there uh had had loved ones there visit and participate in caring for the Aina. Kala Papa should remain untouched." That's from Teresa on Kauaii. you hear in that, you know, how do we balance Kalapa is, as the as the mayor noted, very unique, but there are a lot of spaces in Hawaii that have deep history. Um, and we are figuring out this tension between giving people access, having them learn in the place, but also respecting the place.

[01:06:11]>> Well, I think we have to look at how the patients had wanted the uh area to be managed and to be accessed and respect that. I I think that resonates through out the whole period of uh the planning process that the park had undertaken and the patients were very concerned that the sanctity of um claw papa be uh protected and sustained and I you know the when the park I was part of those I mean we the whole community I was living on Mulikai we all took part in those discussions and I thought it was good because they had three options. one was very limited access just for research and for um you know I think families to go and reconnect with their their their places where their loved ones were uh rest and then there was more uh expanded access I think sort of along the way along the lines of what is now existing with with you know a limit I don't know if it would still be a hundred or more and then there was where there was you know just open access and and no limitations I don't know what where it landed. But I think um those are those are the options that you know are still coming coming in from the responses we heard tonight. what is the appropriate level of uh access to still maintain the sanctity of Kalo Papa and respecting the patients who who live there and you know who were not you know were isolated there was they were there by you know they didn't go there by choice but they they were forcibly isolated and and um to this place so we have to respect that and honor that going forward and continue to you know, how how would we treat uh the graves grave sites of our loved one? You know, our cemeteries are not parks. They're not places we go to to uh to have recreation. And Kapas, I mean, most every place probably has someone who passed and who who lived there and was was is now there in in the ground. So it it really is a a lot a heavy responsibility that we bear to honor those who are resting there and who lived there and and passed on there.

[01:08:28]>> Can I just add something to to what Diana said? Uh I think Nancy mentioned that uh you know we we have a hundred 100 per day limit on people coming into Kalapa and it hasn't reached that. And actually when Father Damian was canonized and Mother Maryanne became a saint they said it was going to be overrun by people. they were going to come in by the droves and it never did really get over more than 25 a day.

[01:09:03]So now why is that? So you got to factor all these things in. Uh it's just a very expensive place to go now uh and hard to get to and uh so it's it's going to be a real challenge especially on where's the money going to come from. Yeah. Mielle I would like for you to take this one from Eva says the history is difficult to hear but it must be acknowledged and learned from from what will Kalo Papa be in a hundred years from now when you look into the future what would you like to see this place in a century >> that's a tough question I've seen so many change just in the last 15 years um I happen to be the Le Cahoo of Kanano Ho Congregational Church and inheriting the responsibility of look of holding that role in the in the community is really really important because and while the patient members have all passed away and we don't have new members joining the church it's not that the church doesn't have a role like people still come on Sundays visitors come people just daytoday need a place to come and pray or just to have quiet time and meditate or come and hear the history and since especially since covid um we had a lot of transition happen in our community.

[01:10:24]Um but when the bar shut down, all the gathering and people would um play music. We had to move that over to the church facility. And then we used to have a craft shop where the patients would um engage in all of their um art and would socialize and then they started selling, you know, little thing, their artwork to just kind of put into the the fund, the craft fund. But that has now gone away. And so now just for the community, every holiday, every time we need to make a birthday gift or Easter decorations, people come to the church. Um the library is now not really accessible, we've built a little library in the church. And so I'm seeing how just there's a transition, but what is it in the community that is really worth holding on to? Do you want to go to the library to look at it like it's a museum exhibit or do you want to actually have it functioning for the people who eventually come to live there? And so when you ask me that question, I hope a hundred years from now there's a community of people whoever they are that understand the specialness that want to hold and no matter what space you occupy, you're going to honor everything that happened in that space before you. So if you live in a I still live I remember moving into Auntie Miriam Mina's house. She painted the inside pink and yellow. It is like a little guava lilico cake in there like it is. So and the options are to paint it white and make it you know standard and historical and or you have to maintain what the last patient um you know had in place. And so we've chose to repaint it, continue and perpetuate the pink and yellow because that's just part of the the coolness of who Auntie was.

[01:12:08]And so are people who are wanting to move there um and imagine themselves in the future, are you willing to hold on to the historic uh structure and the you know people just want to change things all the time and you got to commit to holding on to and appreciating and not begrudgingly like I live in a historic building. So I cannot I like he railing or I like change the stairs. No, you cannot. Like one, it's the law. There's a historic preservation law that says you can't do that. But also like you really it's not just about the people who are coming in. I'm Malamarat house.

[01:12:43]So when Miriam Mina's family comes to see they can see that place that she and and hear that part of story and see it very clearly and vividly. And that's our gift and that's our kulana to the greater not just as a descend and I'm saying not just as a descendant of patients. I'm speaking on behalf of all the ohana even the ones who don't even know that they're related to former patients that they can come and that's up to the kuna to work their magic and that aloha and that mana will translate beyond the physical space.

[01:13:14]>> Yeah. Mayor, I would like to get your thoughts on on what you just shared because I think that what you're describing is a place that is full of life that it is not just a place I mean this is obviously going to be a place of learning and has been for many years um but it is also a thriving community and how do we do both >> you know I think it is so pristine and it is so um it's a it's a look back in time that you could never replicate and and and that's really one of things that that makes it so so special and and and able for people to learn uh to see what it is. So I would love to see a 100 years from now that it looks exactly the way it looks now. Whoever it is that's taking care of it, whoever it is that is that is occupying the space or doing things. Um, but for it to remain the way it is, there's it's so special that for people to see it, they will feel like, you know, obviously they've gone back in time and then to hear the stories, to learn the stories. There should definitely be an educational piece to this, but this is more Arlington Cemetery than Disneyland.

[01:14:21]You know, you're you're going to a place that has meaning.

[01:14:26]um not just for today but as everyone has talked about for what it stood for and you can imagine what everybody had to endure to be there. Um but it's beautiful. It's a beautiful place as is and shouldn't be changed again no matter who's managing whoever is in charge. Uh because again there's no way to recreate what's already there. And yeah, I definitely think people should be allowed to come and and have access as talked about in a in a limited way, in a way that's that's set forth by those who are managing that place. Um, but there's so much that the world can learn about our history and and our own people should learn about our history.

[01:15:07]>> Where's the deer?

[01:15:09]>> There's a lot of deer there that something has to happen.

[01:15:12]>> The whole insights on that one and >> we'll have to talk to D and I in detail about the >> plugging them again. Yes.

[01:15:18]Katie, there's some questions here about the National Park Service and the relationship and whether that lease will be extended. What are the conversations around that? Right now, >> I don't think we've had those um about extension. I mean, I can tell you that because it's a 50-year lease, um under the law, there is an option to max it out, right? You have under the law, it's a at the max it's 65 year lease. So there is an option to extend it, but I think one of the things that we do have to do with our beneficiaries is talk about um our relationship with the National Park Service because I think there might be some misunderstandings. I do hear um community, you know, our beneficiaries who um they they don't want, you know, the park service to be in the picture.

[01:16:13]And so we have to have discussions with our beneficiaries about why that might be. Um, of course from a department standpoint, right, an institutional standpoint, we really appreciate the partnership that we have with NPS helping with the day-to-day management, you know, so when it comes to the um question of cost, right, there's been a lot of questions to DHHL and the other state agencies like because the county wants to know and they want to kind of um quantify, right, what it means, but it's really hard for DHHL because currently we really don't have anything because a lot of that operational um uh cost is actually borne by NPS through our general lease relationship.

[01:16:59]So um you know so there are definitely benefits from a department standpoint with um the relationship and you know I think there is an there is a desire to extend it but there are we definitely have to be sensitive to our beneficiaries and have more engagement with them on that.

[01:17:22]>> Council member please weigh in. I wanted to add about five years ago there was a a group um of beneficiaries uh and you know DHHL did uh work together with the beneficiaries to explore um ending the uh lease with uh national park service earlier than the 50 years. Uh there was a desire to do that. I I understand that in n the the you know 1980 there was a feasibility plan and the u residents did of Kalpapa did support national park service um you know Congress designating Kalpapa National Park and then NPS managing the infrastructure the structures and there was a desire to or expectation of job creation for um you know folks uh at Kalpapa and topside Mokai Okay. Um I think one of the the concerns is um you know just as mayor was saying about you know protecting our place and then having um more decision- making at home and uh oversight over um you know some of the projects moving forward. Uh in 2017 there was a you know an effort to extend the runway. Um we know that there is a need for revenue.

[01:18:41]Um we know that there you know uh that tourism is a potential for revenue and so for you know those of the beneficiaries uh for the residents of topside Mokai um we like to keep decision making at at home as much as possible and if that decision making is all the way in DC then that's too far that it needs to you know be um home rule um and that's how we like it on Mokai and Mayor Besson of course supports you know, like that decision being um where the residents have that autonomy over our home and able to protect Kalpapa in the way that it should be.

[01:19:21]>> Dr. Feld, there's another question here.

[01:19:23]This is from Julian in Honolulu. Who takes care of the property and buildings once the department of health is no longer responsible? We know that you had said that a lot of those duties are already transferred to the park service, but does that ultimately go to the county then or does it go to the park service and the county? There's just a question about the responsibility of the buildings themselves of the infrastructure itself.

[01:19:42]>> Yeah. So the the buildings themselves are actually on owned by and on state agency land but DHHL and DNR land. So technically they are owned by those agencies um as much as land can be owned of course. Um but through their agreements with the National Park Service, the National Park Service maintains and manages those structures.

[01:20:11]So you know even now Department of Health uh only manages and upkeeps us really it's a small portion of the structures.

[01:20:22]It's the structures that our employees live in um and are that are our patients houses and the other structures um especially the historical structures are maintained and managed by the National Park Service. Um they have the expertise to um you know rejuvenate historically rejuvenate the buildings and have done just a fantastic job of bringing some of the particularly the more public publicly used buildings back to life. Um so in that sense really not too much will change. Uh we you know if department of health is is not present there eventually the maintenance and m maintenance of those structures and management of that will most likely um continue with national park service um depending on their agreements with DHHL and DLNR.

[01:21:12]>> Thank you. I just like to jump in really quick because I think there's a common misconception that again like I think it was really important that you shared that map at the beginning.

[01:21:21]>> So most of the infrastructure is on DHHL land but again they're like a third or less landholder and that location. So we only have a lease with DHHL as the National Park Service. Our boundary is much bigger. the um public law that's created a national park is at the US congressional level. So I think it's really important to understand that even if that lease no longer exists, the National Park Service presence still does. Now what the National Park Service presence looks like going into the future, there's so many options on how to manage a national park. And I don't think that is talked about enough because there hasn't really been that space. The general management plan really sets a vision for what it will look like, but it doesn't necessarily give a blueprint for how that work is done. And again, like out of over 430 sites across the country, there are so many examples of ways that parks are managed that exercise more local control that involve lots of different partners, universities, and land owners. So I think I think sometimes there's this misconception that so if the lease ends, we would consider that those inholdings of private property inside the park boundary. It just changes our relationship to that particular space of land.

[01:22:42]>> I think that's a really important clarification. I want to get to uh Professor McGregor briefly. We're almost out of time actually. It goes so fast.

[01:22:49]Uh the history and culture being shared tonight is captivating. I had no idea. I want to learn more. Where can I get this information? It should be part of Hawaii history class before it's lost. I happen to have a fourth grader and she's learning about this right now. But I do think that our understanding of these spaces is really sort of glossed over in elementary school social studies and then kind of moved along. Where would you recommend people go if they want to really learn more?

[01:23:13]>> I guess the websites but there's a book I can't remember it was written by the woman who's a daughter of a superintendent >> onway law. Yeah. It's it's a 650 page book on the history of Kalapa. It was book of the year in Hawaii a few years ago >> and it's written by anway law for forgotten >> and the beauty of it is she gives a lot of agency to the patients at the time.

[01:23:39]So a lot of the history comes down it it it's kind of skewed by the Catholics and the Christians and but this she looks at the patience and the agency that they had and organizing themselves and taking the the organization and the social power into their own hands. I think if we look at claw papa it has such a layered history. So the history of the people who first lived there, who cultivated the land, who honored their our gods and and lived there and you know lived in alignment with the land and then it comes this this it comes disrupted with with the patients this um this forced isolation of people the the the tragedy that they suffered the burdens and so this has also become a part of the land you can't go back to the original way it was because it's so overburdened. with this hundredyear history of the people who lived there and died there. And then now as we go forward, we have to be very conscious of that history. The other thing is we've been talking about Hawaiian control and do HHL, but the the peninsula is not just Kapa, it's also Makanalua and it's Kalawa. So Hawaiians can resettle the homestead there, but that doesn't mean that Makanua and Kalawa, you know, can have other purposes and other other functions. So the peninsula is much bigger than what the area that's called Kalpa and under department hine homelands and so when we look at the whole area we have to be mindful of you know the patients especially but look at that layered history and be very respectful.

[01:25:15]>> Yeah. Really quick, I just want to add that a lot of patients have written biographies, autobiographies or worked with. So, please read their stories first before you read people's interpretations of their experiences and start there. Um, be careful of fictional historical fiction because sometimes they're embellished. Um, and the ar the Hawaii State Archives just put online a beta access to Kalpapo records. So if you're looking for um your own family members like now there's a lot of things that are accessible online.

[01:25:47]>> I I want to stay with you for a second.

[01:25:49]I I would love for you to take this qu this question to kind of close us out.

[01:25:52]How many people besides the patients live in Kalo Papa currently? What do you want people to know about what it is like there right now dayto day?

[01:25:59]>> I think there's like 72 of us in the last uh tsunami evacuation exercise. Um and you all gota we got to take care of each other. I think um the people who are there now are the ones who are living at and and like stewarding this space on a day-to-day. They see the very incremental changes on a very Hawaiian level. Um that's that's just relationship and really the people over there most of them are very open with sharing those experiences with as many people as possible. But at the same time the thing we've inherited from the patients is care and concern for anyone who comes. We want to be hospitable. We want to make sure you are safe. We want to make sure that you are looked after properly. And so, um, we need to, all of these conversations are meant to help us figure out how to continue to provide that, um, and care for anyone who comes to Kalpa. in that same spirit. Um, real quick as I was thinking about you, uh, mayor, like as a Maui County resident, there are certain things that we expect out of our county, services that they provide, and we're looking at what is how does that translate to the residents in Kalpapa in the future. So, it's kind of engineering in both directions.

[01:27:10]>> I love our discussion tonight.

[01:27:12]Unfortunately, we're out of time.

[01:27:13]There's a comment here from Hank who says, "Do this program again once it is appropriate. Now that more people are aware of the situation, I'm sure there will be more input. We know that this is the start of a conversation, certainly not the end. Mahalo to our guests and to mahalo to you at home for sharing your perspectives tonight. As we have heard, Kalo Papa is much more than a historic site. It's a place that has been shaped by pain, resilience, and above all, community, and now a place soon entering a new chapter. The decisions made in the years ahead will help determine how Hawaii cares for this land, honors its history, and carries those stories forward. Next week, we are back to insights, kicking off our election coverage ahead of the August 8th primary. We'll start with the Democratic candidates for state house district 28.

[01:27:56]That includes areas of Sand Island, Eive, and Chinatown. Please do join us then. I'm Yanji Denise. Until next time, thanks for joining us. Aloha and good night.

[01:28:59]This program was made possible by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you. Thank you.

[01:29:13]Local broadcasts of Kako are made possible by the support of viewers like you. Mahalo. And by Hawaii Catholic Community Foundation, creating a legacy that honors Hawaii's 200year Catholic heritage while building a strong, faithfilled future.

[01:29:32]Hawaiian Native Corporation, honoring the legacy of Kalo Papa and the courage and resiliency of its residents.

[01:29:49]PBS Hawaii celebrating. eding.