The Truth About Fearful Avoidants: Why They Send Mixed Signals in Relationships

[00:00:00]Let's talk about the fearful avoidance nervous system. Very chaotic, >> extremely chaotic. They're [music] very deep feelers. They know exactly why they're feeling what they are. They can describe it [music] accurately.

[00:00:12]>> Doesn't mean they will act >> appropriately.

[00:00:15]>> But it does mean they understand what they're feeling [music] and why they're feeling it and they can put words to it like very very quickly. FAS are fighters.

[00:00:22]>> They may hold it in, hold it in, hold it in, but eventually [music] it's going to explode.

[00:00:25]>> They're going to crash out.

[00:00:26]>> They're going to crash out and have a a grievance list. Yeah, >> fas are fiery. They're spicy. They can be coercive. They can be controlling.

[00:00:33]They can be manipulative. Not all of them.

[00:00:36]>> There's a degree, right? It's [music] it's always on a spectrum.

[00:00:39]>> If you're the partner of a fearful avoidant, what are the mistakes they're [music] making with that fearful avoidant partner that they can, you know, work on.

[00:00:46]>> People aren't random. They're incredibly predictable. This is a show about the science of human [music] behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us don't [music] even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern, you can finally change it. I'm Dr. [music] Sarah Hensley. And I'm Raina Butcher. You think your life is random.

[00:01:10]It's not. Welcome to the Dr. Sarah Hensley Show.

[00:01:17]What if the person that gives you the most mixed signals is actually deploying a very predictable survival strategy in relationships?

[00:01:26]In this episode, I really want to break down fearful avoidant attachment because it is the most common attachment style I see in my practice and also the one that people understand the least. Most people come in thinking they're anxious, preoccupied. They're like, "I have anxious attachment." And I'm like, "Oh, you've been listening to some dude on the internet who >> so and so >> had no formal training and is still dichomizing anxious and avoidant and leaving out an entire group of people that have their own unique wounds, their own unique needs >> and who can be either anxious or avoidant >> and uh it's really unfair.

[00:02:02]>> Yeah.

[00:02:02]>> For fearful avoidance to just be lumped in to the other two attachment styles without any unique designation cuz they are so unique. Well, and that's what I was going to say. You know, it's interesting that that's the case because they're the most complex >> definitely >> and the hardest to I think understand >> for sure.

[00:02:22]>> Um, so because there is so much confusion around the AP, anxious, preoccupied, and the fearful avoidant, break down the differences.

[00:02:32]>> Yes. Well, in order to be categorized as a fearful avoidant, you have to show both activating and deactivating behaviors. So, people think attachment style is all about what you feel. Oh, I feel anxious.

[00:02:46]>> Dismissive avoidance can feel anxious.

[00:02:48]>> Mhm.

[00:02:49]>> It's the strategy they use to get rid of that anxiety that determines what the attachment style is. So, attachment is based in your behavior, not in how you feel. And social psychology is the science of behavior. So if a dismissive avoidant, for example, has anxiety, they're going to pull away and isolate and shut down in order to try to cope with that. They're going to go internal.

[00:03:11]They're going to go into themselves and try to cope. So that's actually deactivation from anxiety. Whereas the anxious, preoccupied person activates as a result of their anxiety. The fearful avoidant can do either one. And so in order to be classified as FA, you have to have behavior that shows pursuit or activation or seeking closeness and behavior that actively distances or deactivates pushes someone away. And a lot of very anxious fearful avoidance cuz we have fearfuls that lean quite a bit anxious and those that lean quite a bit avoidant >> and they just get dubbed avoidant or anxious.

[00:03:52]>> But it doesn't mean they can't switch sides. Yeah. Right. And so we can have very anxious FAS that just don't recognize their avoidance. And I would say that is extremely common in my practice.

[00:04:02]>> Yeah. And I have a a question about younger people, right? So say it's a younger person who's in their very first romantic relationship. Yep.

[00:04:10]>> And they really haven't had a chance to deactivate. They've only lived in that anxious space. What's a good way to tell whether you're FA or AP? I would say if you find yourself getting hurt over a lot of things and you really want to talk about it but you don't you hold it in.

[00:04:35]>> Um >> and then you feel this urge to kind of push away but maybe you know it's so new you're just kind of questioning that.

[00:04:44]APS don't really get the urge to push away. Yeah. They get the urge to continue to come close, explain themselves, want to settle it. If you're just like, man, I really kind of want to run right now.

[00:04:55]>> Mhm.

[00:04:55]>> But eventually you will.

[00:04:58]>> Yeah. And I think, >> you know, eventually you'll run.

[00:05:00]>> Yeah. And conflict, I think, is always a telltale sign, you know, cuz I would think that in any case, whether regardless of your age, whether you're young or older or you know, in multiple romantic relationships or not, that it really it really does like, you know, conflict is the AP just wants to avoid it and fawn and the FA does have Yeah. Yeah. They're >> Yeah. So let's talk about >> wounds and needs you know >> so the primary wound for fearful avoidance is betrayal >> and this really comes from this idea of the fright without solution paradox in childhood where there is a caregiver or both caregivers are a source of pain as well as a source of love and survival for their child.

[00:05:51]>> So most of the time the fearful avoidance that I see have some kind of big tea trauma. Not all of them. Some of them have more persistently little tea traumas in childhood, but the majority of them have something like a nasty divorce and then they just never saw one of their parents again. Maybe like very very infrequently, right? Maybe dad moved out and they only saw him >> every once in a while in the summers and holidays >> or a parent that was just really harsh in their parenting, borderline abusive, yelled, spanked.

[00:06:22]You never knew what their mood was going to be. mood was very liable or unpredictable for the parent, parent with a substance abuse issue, abuse in the home. I've never seen someone experience sexual abuse, you know, and disclose that to me who did not ultimately get categorized by me as fearful avoidant.

[00:06:42]>> Sexual abuse is one of the most traumatizing things anybody can experience. And even if it happened outside of the home, the subconscious blames it on the parents because it's like, well, you should have been able to protect me from these bad things in the world and you didn't, right?

[00:06:56]>> Even though consciously they may know my parents couldn't have done anything, they couldn't have seen it coming, >> it still gets imprinted as a betrayal by the parents >> in the subconscious mind. So this idea of betrayal is just a really unique psychological injury. It's very unique.

[00:07:14]>> How so?

[00:07:16]Because especially in childhood, your caregivers are your source of survival and they are supposed to love you in a safe way.

[00:07:25]>> And children inherently know this.

[00:07:27]>> They look at families. They understand what a family is supposed to be. There's a mommy, there's a daddy, and they're supposed to love me as the child. And they're supposed to love each other. And when that parent becomes a source of significant pain in the child's life, they both have to have an approach strategy which is rely on the caregiver for care for survival. They still want love from that parent, but also they have to withdraw at times to protect themselves from the dysfunction and the pain that that parent brings. So this unique psychological injury of I have to love them but I also fear them at the same time gets transferred into adult relationships where I both want love from my partner but I also deeply fear being hurt and deeply feel like closeness ultimately does bring harm.

[00:08:17]Gosh, when you explain this I feel so many sensations in my body. Like I get goosebumps because I feel it I'm it's just so relatable to my life for sure >> and I know yours too just because we had um in your case your dad in my case my mom who were wonderful people God rest their souls but they were these like my mom for example was extremely loyal. She never missed any event that we had. She always showed up. Um, but she also was just teetering constantly on this line of when she was going to lose her temper or when she was going to be okay.

[00:08:59]>> Yeah.

[00:08:59]>> And that was my dad.

[00:09:00]>> Yeah. And it was hard.

[00:09:01]>> My dad was not loyal.

[00:09:03]>> My dad was my mom out.

[00:09:05]>> Um, which I think also [snorts] was painful >> to have a parent >> that because the FA's deepest need is to be known.

[00:09:16]>> Yeah. known deeply, known, heard, understood, seen, validated.

[00:09:23]And so when I felt like my dad didn't know me, it was so painful. Yeah.

[00:09:27]>> And I think that that is where all of my negative feelings from my dad came from.

[00:09:32]He didn't know me and he didn't see the pain that he caused our family. He caused our family so much pain and distress.

[00:09:40]>> Yeah. So I was very very defensive of my mom >> and living lived in victimhood.

[00:09:47]>> Yeah. And my mom lived in victimhood.

[00:09:48]Love her to death.

[00:09:50]>> But in a lot of cases, she was a victim of my dad, but she just didn't know how to set boundaries to get over it.

[00:09:56]>> And that's the paradox a lot of fearful avoidance end up in. See, the subconscious seeks the familiar >> always. Doesn't matter if that familiar is good for you or not.

[00:10:06]>> The subconscious is going to seek it. So if the familiar to you is that love is pain, you are going to seek that out.

[00:10:14]And that is not going to change just because you know that it's there.

[00:10:17]>> Yeah.

[00:10:17]>> It only changes when you change those patterns deep in your nervous system.

[00:10:21]That is why I try to pound it into the ground. But you have to do the deep work at the level of the nervous system to change these imprints in order to be able to attract someone secure. Fearful avoidance are notorious >> for attracting very dysfunctional people.

[00:10:38]>> Really bad boys. [laughter] >> Yeah, narcissists. If anybody's going to attract a narcissist, it's going to be the FA create the most pain.

[00:10:48]>> Yeah. And I find it interesting that people get this wrong, too, that most of the time people think the DA is the narcissist, but most of the time FAS >> Yeah. The base attachment for narcissism really is FA because it comes from it comes from significant dysfunction in childhood. Now, I will say this, DAS with trauma overlay >> can develop narcissism. So, FA isn't the only attachment style that can turn into narcissism. DAS can too.

[00:11:18]>> Yeah.

[00:11:19]>> It's just that it's less likely.

[00:11:22]>> Yeah. Let's talk about um I don't know.

[00:11:25]I don't want to say your theory, but you've talked about it in the past on other episodes, but I find it very interesting and very spot-on about your theory, your quotations, um, cuz you can validate that, but about the narcissist and how narcissism is formed. Yeah. So, I think there's a number of conditions where narcissism can be formed and it can look a little bit different and that can end up determining whether it's more covert narcissism that somebody has or more overt narcissism that someone has.

[00:11:56]specifically around overt narcissism. I think they most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time had a parent that was dysfunctional or very neglectful and disconnected with a parent that overvalued them or overpraised them. So there was sort of this I have this one parent that is rejecting me, but I have this other parent then that I run to who soothes me. Mhm. And in the case of particularly male narcissists that are of the overt type that are chronic cheaters, because that is a very typical overt narcissism profile for men. They tend to be serial cheaters, serial liars, master manipulators.

[00:12:40]>> They usually had a a female caregiver in their life. That could be grandma. It could be mom. Most of the time mom >> that really overvalued them and a father that rejected them.

[00:12:52]>> Yeah. Overcritical father.

[00:12:53]>> Overcritical father.

[00:12:55]>> So my father criticizes me or he neglects me and that wounds me. So but then I can run to mommy and she praises me and she soothes me. So that makes them absolutely dependent upon the validation of women to feel okay in the future.

[00:13:09]>> Yeah. It makes so much sense. You when you've talked about this in the past I was like it clicked. I was like, "That's it."

[00:13:15]>> Yeah.

[00:13:15]>> And just in reference to my own experiences, you know, with specific people, it >> Yeah, it is >> spot on spot on to my experience as well.

[00:13:25]>> But again, there's a lot of different sort of narcissistic presentations and newer >> diagnostic criteria focus a lot more on vulnerable narcissism or covert narcissism, >> which I think is something my father struggled with. I don't know if he would have made the criteria for full NPD. I I debate that within myself all the time is, you know, was he fully NPD?

[00:13:47]>> Maybe.

[00:13:48]>> But he's definitely had strong vulnerable narcissistic traits. And his mother, in my opinion, my just personal lay opinion, not clinical diagnosis, >> I don't do that, >> was a full-on vulnerable narcissist.

[00:14:02]>> Um, and so he was raised by a narcissist. Therefore, he had some narcissistic tendencies. And that can be how narcissism is passed down as well.

[00:14:10]um you have a parent that's narcissistic and of course we always either observe >> and then seek out the behaviors of our parents or we absorb them and we actually act them out ourselves.

[00:14:22]>> Interesting.

[00:14:23]>> So we either seek it or we become it.

[00:14:26]>> Yeah.

[00:14:26]>> And that has that is true for attachment as well as narcissism. That is why it's so important to do the work because you can't just know I should do better and then do better. But yeah, fearful avoidance are are particularly prone to attracting narcissists and are most likely the ones to become them.

[00:14:43]>> Yeah.

[00:14:44]>> Eventually.

[00:14:44]>> Yeah. I want to go back to, you know, um the FA AP difference.

[00:14:49]>> Okay.

[00:14:50]>> Um I know the wound around betrayal is more prevalent in the FA.

[00:14:55]>> Yes.

[00:14:56]>> And I really want you to break down the biggest differences between that betrayal wound versus the abandonment wound.

[00:15:04]>> Yeah. For the FA, betrayal is you don't know me.

[00:15:07]>> Mhm.

[00:15:08]>> You did something that hurt me and you did it because you didn't know that would hurt me. Or you did know even worse, you did know that would hurt me and you did it anyway.

[00:15:16]>> So betrayal is really any disappoint to the FA any disappointment.

[00:15:21]>> Yeah. And it could be >> any inconsistency, >> any misatunement, right? So they're hypervigilant to like being hurt at all in any way. The AP is like, I'll take whatever you give me, just don't leave me. Mhm.

[00:15:34]>> So they are much more hypervigilant to just cues of abandonment versus cues of all harm.

[00:15:40]>> Yeah.

[00:15:40]>> So and they have this unending I always equate it to like the Energizer Bunny >> effect of I can get you to love me. Just give me another chance. I if if you let me if you let me have a chance, I'll try harder. I'll do better and we can make this work.

[00:16:00]>> Mhm. Whereas the FA is like, I don't even know if [clears throat] I want to make it work.

[00:16:03]>> Yeah.

[00:16:04]>> Like, yes, I want you, but then I also debate because you've hurt me, I don't know how I could love you back. So, there's this constant push pull with the FA, even if it's just internal. Like, if we have a very anxious FA, they might constantly be pursuing, >> but it doesn't mean internally they're not suffering over, but I don't know because you've hurt me so much. Whereas the AP is always like, no, I definitely want to be together, >> right? You know, no matter what.

[00:16:28]>> No matter what. Yeah, >> it an AP only ends a relationship under a few finite circumstances. One, they have somebody else lined up that they are very sure they can walk into a relationship with. So, they don't have to have any gaps in having a relationship because the AP gets a lot of validation from being in a relationship, a lot of their self-worth from being in a relationship. So, if they have somebody else lined up, >> like maybe it hasn't been technical cheating, but it's been close enough, right? and they know, okay, I can walk straight into this other relationship.

[00:16:58]>> That's >> not feel abandoned because of that.

[00:17:00]>> The other way is they get broken up with >> and they don't really want it to end.

[00:17:05]>> Mhm.

[00:17:05]>> The third option is it is so bad. It is so abusive. It is so horrendous that they just even they have reached a limit. And I would say that's the most rare situation.

[00:17:18]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:19]>> But it exists.

[00:17:21]>> Makes me sad. An FA is much more likely to run.

[00:17:24]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:24]>> And then immediately regret it and want to get back together. That's what I used to do. I used to break up with people >> and then immediately regret >> like, "No, I I'm No, I'm just kidding. I want you back."

[00:17:35]>> Yeah. So, I would be like solid in it for like a week, but I was really as an anxious FA desperately hoping that they would come back, apologize, >> make it right, >> wanting to chase you, chase me. Yeah.

[00:17:47]Chase me. And if that didn't happen, >> then I was psychologically just I would just break down >> and I would be miserable and anxious and obsessive and >> I don't know how many times I did that.

[00:17:59]I broke up with somebody because they hurt me in the moment >> and I was like, fine, this is over.

[00:18:03]>> Yep.

[00:18:04]>> Only to be like, oh crap, what did I do?

[00:18:06]>> Yep. Done the same thing. [laughter] >> And then be like, I shouldn't have done that. Oh no. But then there would be a part of me again that would be like, no, but I had a right to because they did this thing that hurt me.

[00:18:16]>> Yeah. So it it it's definitely more of a push pull with the FA whereas the AP it's just >> the push.

[00:18:23]>> Yeah. And since we've talked a little bit about the AP and FA differences, let's talk a little bit about the FADA differences.

[00:18:29]>> Yes. This is I think even more confusing for people.

[00:18:33]>> Oh my gosh. Every This is crazy. So my Tuesday and Wednesday are my coaching days where I see individual clients.

[00:18:40]>> Um I only see individual clients on those days. Every single client I had on those days >> came to me and said, "I have a DA partner." And I was like, "Are you sure?" And they were like, "I think so.

[00:18:56]Let's talk about it." And then they totally described an FA. And I was like, "I really don't think you're dealing with a DA here."

[00:19:02]>> And they're like, "Oh, well, it's because, you know, they pull away."

[00:19:06]>> Well, FAS can absolutely pull away and they act in opposition to their partner's attachment style. So those clients were the more anxious one in the relationship, which is automatically going to put the FA in the more dismissive or avoidant position in the relationship.

[00:19:23]>> So they're going to act very DA, but there's some characteristics. DAs aren't huge fighters. Yes, can they get defensive, frustrated, irritated? Yeah.

[00:19:31]But they're not going to you generally be screaming at you >> and lowblowing you unless they have major trauma overlay, which is a small percentage of DAS.

[00:19:40]>> FA absolutely will do that. Oh yeah, they're fiery.

[00:19:43]>> They're not going to come running and chasing you when you pull away. That is that is like the key. If you pull away in the relationship, do they automatically activate into their anxiety and come seek you out?

[00:19:53]>> Characteristic textbook >> FA.

[00:19:57]>> DAs don't do that.

[00:19:58]>> No, >> they're going to wait it out and then they're going to mosey around and maybe kind of like start normal conversation but still be pretty distant.

[00:20:06]>> Yeah. This is why it's so >> They're a slow The DA is a slow fade.

[00:20:10]>> Yeah. And this is why it's so important too, I think, to not take some online quiz, right? Because people are such BS.

[00:20:16]>> People get it wrong more often than not.

[00:20:19]Do you know every person comes to me and goes, "I took an online quiz and it said I was secure, but I just really don't think I am." Or, "My partner took this online quiz and it said they said that they were secure, so they don't want to do your program."

[00:20:28]>> Heavy sigh.

[00:20:30]>> Major heavy side. I'm like, you mean those psychometrically invalid quizzes that are for educational purposes only and actually measure nothing and might as well ask you your favorite ice cream flavor and >> say that measures attachment.

[00:20:44]>> There's just sometimes no replacement for human Yeah. for having the the human or the coach or the therapist.

[00:20:50]>> That's why I do an interview >> because I can poke where I need to poke.

[00:20:54]I can find the nuances. I can find the complexities.

[00:20:57]>> And you're going to tune in real time, >> right? And I'm and I'm submitting a paper right now to psychological review that we need an updated assessment, an updated qualitative assessment. The AI just doesn't capture everything. So I that's why I use like >> the p a lot of the primary components of the adult attachment interview, but I also ask some of my own questions and I really want that to get into public domain science because I think I have great theoretical justification for it.

[00:21:21]So I'm submitting that paper right now.

[00:21:22]>> I love that. Um, and we'll see we'll see if where it's its journal home is going to be.

[00:21:29]>> Um, but I think we need a new qualitative and we also need a new updated quantitative measure as well.

[00:21:35]>> Um, and so I'm creating one of those good >> as well. So that way we can have, >> you know, validity. There's certain types of validity where we look at two measures and see how well they correlate, you know, and and I think we need a new qualitative measure and a new quantitative measure. Those online quizzes aren't it.

[00:21:52]>> No. The process of creating an assessment for attachment is years >> because [clears throat] it requires tons of research.

[00:22:00]>> Yes. You have to get it to multiple populations over time. Then you have to do validity analyses, reliability analyses.

[00:22:08]>> We do factor analysis to see what underlying factors are there. Then we whittle down the questions and we give it to another population again. And we do this process over and over until we have a final set of questions that we think tap into that construct the best.

[00:22:22]Right?

[00:22:22]>> You don't just make up questions that sound like they measure something and then we expect it to measure that psychological construct. That is not science.

[00:22:30]>> And unfortunately, people use it as clickbait to get people in the door. And it's not uh it's not science.

[00:22:37]>> Yeah.

[00:22:38]>> So, I want to go back to the fearful avoidant and let's talk about the fearful avoidance nervous system.

[00:22:43]>> Very chaotic.

[00:22:44]>> Extremely chaotic. They're very deep feelers. The more anxious ones are like an M5 Mac or an M6 Mac. I don't know if an M6 exists, but like an M5 Mac processor, which is a a very new Mac computer.

[00:22:58]>> They know exactly why they're feeling what they are. They can describe it accurately.

[00:23:03]>> Doesn't mean they will act >> appropriately, >> but it does mean they understand what they're feeling and why they're feeling it and they can put words to it like very very quickly. The more avoidant FA, they still feel very deeply, >> but they can't necessarily articulate it as well and as eloquently as the more anxious fearful can.

[00:23:23]>> And they might not be as comfortable with the vulnerability as the more anxious FA is.

[00:23:28]>> And again, people can swing from anxious to avoidant, but generally if they lean one direction, they have sort of that more inherent dichotomy of >> I can process really quick. I can say it really quick and I expect everybody else to do that. That's what the anxious FA is sort of expecting out of others.

[00:23:47]>> Debt me.

[00:23:49]>> Same sis. Same. [laughter] >> Um, but I know other FAS that lean the other way. I I'm thinking [clears throat] of others. And I don't know if you guys would as you listen, are you thinking about the people you know in your life? So you're like, "Yep, yep."

[00:24:02]>> So the more avoidant ones can be >> equally as difficult, high emotions. FAS are fighters. Mhm.

[00:24:10]>> They may hold it in, hold it in, hold it in, but eventually it's going to explode.

[00:24:13]>> They're going to crash out.

[00:24:14]>> They're going to crash out and have a a grievance list >> or they can kind of come out of the gate hot.

[00:24:20]>> Those are the more anxious FAS. They tend to come out of the gate hot.

[00:24:22]>> Yeah. It takes me a while.

[00:24:24]>> Yeah.

[00:24:25]>> But as I get older, um, you know, I I tend to I've gotten better about, you know, keeping it keeping that fight that fire under wraps a little bit. Just don't wake me up, right, babe? Don't wake me up. Cuz then you know if you wake me up, I'm going to fight.

[00:24:39][laughter] I'm going to fight you.

[00:24:41]>> My husband is going to get you if you wake up.

[00:24:43]>> Love him. But I guess that that's probably from being in the army.

[00:24:46]>> Yeah.

[00:24:46]>> When he had to sleep when he could sleep and he didn't want to be woken. Um [snorts] >> No, but FAS are fiery. They're spicy.

[00:24:54]>> They can be coercive. They can be controlling. They can be manipulative.

[00:24:57]Not all of them.

[00:24:58]>> There's a degree, right? It's it's always on a spectrum. The more milder FAS may not be coercive and manipulative. the more, you know, um, what's the word I'm looking for here?

[00:25:10]The more significant the FA attachment, the more severe the FA attachment, >> the more fiery and spicy.

[00:25:17]>> Yeah, talk about that. Talk about that because you know in terms of maybe some new listeners that we have, talk about the spectrum of attachment.

[00:25:26]>> Yeah. So we do have categories >> and unfortunately so in statistics we have types of variables like categorical variables like if I ask you what's your favorite ice cream flavor and you say chocolate well we could have vanilla we could have strawberry we could have rocky road right >> it's baseball nut from BaskinRobins if y'all are wondering [laughter] >> okay [gasps] >> good to know good to know Josh good to know um >> yeah that's categorical variable right there's no like number spectrum. We can put that on, >> right?

[00:25:58]>> Okay.

[00:26:00]Then we have what we call continuous variables. Continuous variables mean there's this sort of unlimited amount of measurement numerically, right? And then we can chop it up as finite as it could possibly go up to infinity. So like if I say for example age >> like age is a continuous variable where it's like you could be zero years old you could not exist therefore you could be like >> if you could been have been -4 years old right because four years before you were born >> that that's you being negative4 right >> interesting >> mhm >> and then you could be zero years old and then you could be one to potentially the pot it's not about how long you will live it's the potential right to go to infinity right we know you won't live to infinity but like it just keeps going and then we can break your age down to like milliseconds >> right you are you are 44 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours I don't know all the way to like >> trillc exactly so that's a continuous variable >> and then we have like this discrete sort of variable where it's like it's I only give you a finite amount of responses, but it's still on a spectrum.

[00:27:23]>> Okay, this is kind of what attachment is. It yes, there are these categories, but within these categories, we have sort of mild to severe, >> right?

[00:27:33]>> Which it's like you can be kind of close to secure. It's what I call pseudossecure where you can understand what secure attachment looks like. You can even employ some secure behaviors, but if you're triggered enough, you're going to slide up the spectrum and your attachment dysfunction is going to start to show.

[00:27:51]>> And so, and then we have people who kind of inherently are very severe. So, they just always sort of exist more on that severe side. So, it's it's a little bit more fluid than people make it out to be.

[00:28:04]>> Yeah. Yeah. And what's happening at any given moment in the relationship can change that fluidity. It can change how you sort of slide among that spectrum.

[00:28:13]So it's sort of >> especially with the fearful avoidant.

[00:28:15]>> Oh gosh. Fearful avoidant has the whole spectrum.

[00:28:17]>> Right. Right.

[00:28:17]>> They can be 100% avoidant and then come and be like crazy anxious.

[00:28:22]>> Y >> it just depends.

[00:28:25]>> So I think it's just the internet trying to oversimplify things where it really is complex and nuanced if you understand it.

[00:28:33]>> Yeah. And so the fearful avoidant, yeah, the fearful avoidant can just be all over the place. Their inner world tends to be very chaotic. They would they would score higher on what we would call neuroticism, which is a personality trait that really is sort of like unstable mood.

[00:28:52]>> So they they tend to have more unstable mood.

[00:28:55]>> Yeah.

[00:28:55]>> Than the other two attachment styles. Um and again they have this disorganized pattern of relating. And so it used to be called disorganized attachment when describing infants and then that term kind of got you know mapped to adults where sometimes they can really come close and other times they can push you away.

[00:29:16]>> So I think the more anxious fearful avoidance >> act a little bit more AP like.

[00:29:22]>> Yeah.

[00:29:22]>> Where they want they want closeness.

[00:29:24]They want deep intimacy. They want to be deeply seen and known. They want people to kind of split them open, see the inside of them for who they are. They want people to study them, to know them, to meet their needs without having to ask their partner to meet their needs.

[00:29:43]>> The more avoidant ones are both hurt and will withdraw because of being hurt. So, they can get hurt very easily, but also are more likely to withdraw from being hurt than the anxious ones. The anxious ones will maybe it'll take a couple of times for them being hurt in the same way before they withdraw.

[00:30:00]>> Um the more avoidant ones are more likely to withdraw like immediately >> after being hurt. Um and then also they're more prone to the overwhelm which is a characteristic they share with the DA.

[00:30:13]>> Right.

[00:30:14]>> So intimacy in and of itself can be overwhelming for the more naturally leaning avoidant, fearful avoidant.

[00:30:21]>> Yes, I see it in the person that I'm thinking of. I want to ask you too, what's the what do you see with >> do you see most um neurode divergence with the overlay of FA?

[00:30:33]>> Yes. But I don't think it's true neurode divergence. I think it's a factor >> coming from complex post-traumatic stress disorder which inherently overlaps with fearful avoidant attachment.

[00:30:44]>> Complex CPTTSD >> creates executive dysfunction.

[00:30:48]>> It does. It creates executive dysfunction and I think we label that as ADHD especially.

[00:30:54]>> Um sometimes even mild ASD and I think the DA sometimes gets labeled as mild ASD.

[00:31:00]>> Mhm.

[00:31:01]>> Because they have problems relating to people.

[00:31:05]>> Yeah, for sure.

[00:31:06]>> But it's coming from a different mechanism. So I think >> attachment and neurode divergence overlaps and we need a lot more research on that.

[00:31:13]>> Absolutely. I agree with that. That's just a question I see so often >> in your messages. you know, about neurode divergence and attachment and the overlays between the two.

[00:31:22]>> For sure.

[00:31:22]>> Um, so if you're the partner of a fearful avoidant, like what are the most like what are the most often mistakes you see of people that come into your practice other than thinking that maybe they have an a more dismissive avoidant versus the fearful avoidant? Like what are the mistakes they're making with that fearful avoidant partner that they can, you know, work on?

[00:31:40]>> Getting defensive.

[00:31:41]>> Yeah. Number one thing, defensiveness will make >> the FA go crazy because their deepest need is to be understood.

[00:31:50]>> Yeah.

[00:31:51]>> They want validation. They want to be known. They want their pain to be understood by their partner. They want their position to be understood by their partner. They want their reality to be acknowledged and understood sometimes even to the point of being agreed with.

[00:32:04]Like they're the fearful avoidant. They have this toxic trait where it's like their reality is the only reality.

[00:32:09]>> Yeah. And it can really be hard for them to let go of their reality. And then they can be very defensive because if they feel misunderstood, they want to jump in there and correct the story. No, no, no, no. Here's how it here's how it is.

[00:32:21]>> Mhm.

[00:32:22]>> It's tough. They get defensive for a different reason than a dismissive avoidant does, >> right?

[00:32:27]>> Um, but they can still get very defensive. But your own defensiveness is really going to trigger them >> because they want you to understand them. So being able to validate, acknowledge, and what I teach people all the time in conflict resolution is that you don't have to agree with your partner's reality, but you do have to try to understand it, empathize with it, and accept that it exists in the first place.

[00:32:49]>> And what does that usually look like?

[00:32:51]>> It looks like being like, "Hey, I understand your position that when I said or did X, it made you feel why, and that that did not feel good to you. and that you have interpreted it as I was rejecting you or I was blank.

[00:33:05]>> Um, and I know that feels really bad to you.

[00:33:09]I know that that it it doesn't work for you.

[00:33:12]>> That is not you saying and I agree I rejected you and I agree you should feel this way.

[00:33:17]>> But it still provides so much comfort.

[00:33:19]>> It does. Right. And then you can say and in my experience my intentions were XYZ or in my like I I apologize for that impact. I didn't mean to impact you that way.

[00:33:31]>> Yeah.

[00:33:32]>> And in my experience >> I feel something totally different because the other person's reality is valid too.

[00:33:38]>> Sure.

[00:33:39]>> And most of the time what we're arguing about is subjective reality.

[00:33:42]>> Yes. It's so true.

[00:33:43]>> There's no answer, >> right? No right or wrong.

[00:33:46]>> There's no he's right and she's wrong or vice versa. It's here's how you viewed the situation and what you felt and what you experienced and here's how your partner viewed the situation and here's what they felt and what they experienced.

[00:33:57]>> And then fearful avoidance will get so caught up in just claiming their reality as the winner.

[00:34:04]>> Yeah.

[00:34:04]>> And we've got to have an opportunity for both people's reality to be absolutely laid out on the table. Both deserve equal attention >> and acknowledgement and understanding.

[00:34:16]But then what you actually have to agree on is what are we going to do to move forward in a way that works for both people.

[00:34:22]>> Yeah.

[00:34:22]>> So maybe you don't agree that your partner should have been hurt by what you said. You don't have to agree with that, but would you be willing to say it differently next time >> because that would feel better to them.

[00:34:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. It I mean you think it would be worth it, right? Like it is worth it.

[00:34:37]>> Yeah. It's absolutely worth it. And speaking of that, like you know, for the FAS that maybe do have really deep trauma, >> you know, healing, let's talk about healing a little bit in that space. And you know, is it possible?

[00:34:52]>> It is possible. I wouldn't be sitting here if it wasn't possible. And do I still have little FA behaviors that sneak up and then I have to correct them? Yes, that is part of earning your security. Nobody's 100% perfectly secure >> after their healing journey. It's a matter of can you catch it? Can you correct it? Can you try to take accountability for it >> and can you try to keep working on it moving forward? That's what makes somebody quote unquote healed, right?

[00:35:16]>> Is that they're on a continuous healing journey.

[00:35:18]>> That's right.

[00:35:19]>> And so, yes, absolutely. Um the hypervigilance will get them in the most trouble.

[00:35:26]>> And that is something that lingers.

[00:35:28]>> It does.

[00:35:29]>> It's just can you can you be like instead of being like, "No, I know you're mad at me. You took a deep sigh.

[00:35:34]>> Can you just do a check-in? Hey, just curious if everything's okay."

[00:35:37]>> Right? Curiosity is your friend.

[00:35:39]>> Curiosity is your friend. But you have to be regulated to have curiosity. You have to be regulated in order to be open to somebody else's perspective. You have to be regulated to be mindful of the words that you're using. That's polyagal theory.

[00:35:52]>> And that is why people can know that they need to do those things but not be able to execute them in real time because their nervous system is still responding in a threat state.

[00:36:03]>> And you have to condition that out of somebody.

[00:36:06]>> Yeah. You have to condition it out of them and you have to also simultaneously work on their cognitive and effective schemas, their thoughts and emotions >> that are are driving those things. So that's where my capacity building tools come in. And then that is why we also work on reconditioning behavior in my program.

[00:36:23]>> Yeah. Which is great. And I know that you probably see the F, you said this at the beginning, you see FAS probably more than you see any other attachment style.

[00:36:31]>> It's selection bias because they have the most pain. The people that are in the most pain are the most most likely to reach out to me, >> right? And they're mo the most emotionally aware. So they're more likely to seek help, >> right? And they're the most likely to go, "How can I fix myself?" The anxious FAS, the avoidant FAS are a little bit more resistant. I actually think >> fearfuls that lean dismissive are the hardest attachment style.

[00:36:53]>> Yeah, I can see why. I can see why.

[00:36:55]>> But only if because again, fearful avoidance have such high trait variability, meaning one does not look like the other. So one fearful avoidant who leans dismissive might not look like the other. One might be mild, the other might be more severe. One might have more manipulative traits, the other might not.

[00:37:11]>> And so there's kind of this special category of fearfuls that lean avoidant >> that are the hardest. If they have high manipulation, high defensiveness, high likelihood to withdraw, they share more of a defectiveness wound, >> then we have somebody who's both high conflict and high resistant to change.

[00:37:33]>> But they're only a small like category, right?

[00:37:37]>> Cuz again, fearful avoidance widely diverse.

[00:37:40]>> Mhm.

[00:37:41]>> But if I get one of those, >> I'm like she >> I've seen them. I've seen them. Yeah.

[00:37:46]>> High conflict, high resistant to change.

[00:37:48]>> Mhm.

[00:37:49]>> DA is just high resistant to change.

[00:37:51]>> Yeah.

[00:37:51]>> Right.

[00:37:52]>> They're not they they hate conflict.

[00:37:54]They don't want to fight.

[00:37:55]>> So, they don't always have that spicy throw it back in your face manipulation below the belt punches that can feel very devastating.

[00:38:04]>> I know there's been at least twice that side story that you've had to fire clients and it's guys, this is okay.

[00:38:12]Like sometimes sucked.

[00:38:14]>> Yeah. But >> twice. It's happened twice.

[00:38:16]>> And they were the exact person that you're describing it. High conflict, >> resistance change. Yeah.

[00:38:24]>> And it does say in my terms and conditions, if you start screaming, cussing >> at your partner or at me, I end the session.

[00:38:32]>> Your behavior has to remain respectful.

[00:38:34]Absolutely.

[00:38:35]>> You can get upset, >> but you can't scream and cuss and throw things. I had one person punch the camera.

[00:38:40]>> That's crazy.

[00:38:41]>> Punch his computer. That's >> like punched me through the computer.

[00:38:44]>> Oh my gosh.

[00:38:45]>> So that so I had to fire that client.

[00:38:47]>> Yeah. Um it's worth it to fire clients sometimes for your own wellbeing. You just have to >> It's in my terms and conditions. You can't you have to >> I Yeah. I can't put myself in a position to be abused. I won't. I refuse.

[00:38:58][clears throat] Those are my boundaries.

[00:38:59]I would be a hypocrite if I didn't do that. And then I had another client >> that was just >> verbally he wouldn't let his partner get a word in. He was cursing. He was demanding that I give an that I make his opinion my opinion and I disagreed with him >> and he was like if you don't tell her this blah blah blah like he was trying to manipulate and force me into telling his partner something that I didn't agree with >> and I just had to say I don't think I'm a good fit for you.

[00:39:31]>> Mhm. Yeah.

[00:39:32]>> And and that was my choice.

[00:39:33]>> Absolutely. And it's fair.

[00:39:34]>> Were they both FA? For sure.

[00:39:36]>> It's fair. Yeah. Um, sometimes it's funny cuz Sarah, our lives are so different even though we're so enthralled in this business. And sometimes I'm like, you know, maybe I would like to go back to coaching. And then I hear stories like that and I'm like, no, I'm good. I'm good right where I am. I'm good. [laughter] >> Like, should we switch places for a day?

[00:39:56]Uh, no. I'm good. I'm totally good. Cuz that would be I would feel so disregulated after if I had a coaching session like that.

[00:40:03]>> I would really struggle afterwards. See, I have I always say I don't have great dissociative ability, but maybe I do when it comes to those types of situations because or maybe I've just I I've learned to process it and just realize that that's not my fault that I show up as the best version of myself and my goal is to always help the client to my maximum capacity, but sometimes people don't have the capacity to even be regulated enough to engage with me and that's not my problem, >> right?

[00:40:32]>> Or my fault. So, I can just let it go.

[00:40:34]So true.

[00:40:35]>> Because if I know that I showed up with respect, with professionalism, with a good heart, >> I'm off the hook.

[00:40:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. Amen, sister. Amen. So, for all of our fearful avoidance out there, we love you guys so much.

[00:40:49]>> We do. And just because you might move the goalpost >> and you remember like an elephant, you never forget. Maybe >> you never forget. Maybe you keep score in your relationship. Maybe you bring up the past. Maybe you beat the dead horse in conflict. Mhm. Mhm.

[00:41:04]>> Maybe you will protest and pull away and give people the silent treatment and simultaneously want them to poke at you >> and find out what's wrong.

[00:41:13]>> We see you.

[00:41:14]>> Yeah, >> we hear you.

[00:41:15]>> Gosh, I feel you. I I feel and see you in in the depths of my soul. Cuz >> maybe you run when something starts to get really close >> and you feel overwhelmed by the very thing you think you want.

[00:41:26]>> There's all sorts of FA presentations out there.

[00:41:29]>> Yeah.

[00:41:29]>> And uh we're here to help.

[00:41:31]>> Absolutely. And so if you're looking for help, uh first off, we got to give a shout out to Rachel at the Honest Jeweler.

[00:41:39]>> Absolutely. Let's talk about her.

[00:41:41]>> She's a listener and she sent us the most beautiful bracelets, guys. Um so they're curated with little specific statements on them. I have mine on right now. One says, "You are loved." And the other one says, "Let go. Let God." That one's always such a good reminder for me. Um but yeah, she sent us these beautiful bracelets. She sent me two and Dr. Hinsley, too. And we're just so appreciative, Rachel, that you sent us your art and your creativity. Beautiful.

[00:42:09]Um, and we're just so grateful for listeners who are willing to send us little gifts.

[00:42:13]>> So, check out the honest jeweler.

[00:42:14]>> Yes, the honest jeweler at the honestjuler.com.

[00:42:18]>> All right, guys. Thank you guys so much as always for tuning in. We love each and every one of you. We are so excited again for season 3 in our new studio.

[00:42:29]There's so much more to come. Um, you know, we are getting everything just topnotch for you guys.

[00:42:35]>> We're going to have top-notch guests.

[00:42:36]Um, we're going to figure out how to do call-ins. We're working on that technology right now.

[00:42:41]>> Which is going to make things really fun.

[00:42:43]>> My husband's in the studio or the network room right now going, "Oh gosh."

[00:42:47]Okay. I got to figure that out. Okay.

[00:42:48]Okay. I'm going to figure that out.

[00:42:49]>> We're going to figure it [laughter] out.

[00:42:50]Josh has time. It doesn't have to be tomorrow.

[00:42:52]>> Yes. And we figured out so much to this point. Like, I'm just so incred I'm so proud of us, too. I'm so incredibly proud of us. I told you when it all began, I was like, if there's four people that I that I'll bet on, it's the four of us.

[00:43:06]>> That's right, sis.

[00:43:07]>> Yeah. So, I'm super proud of us and I'm super proud of each and every one of you for tuning in every week, for listening, for trying to heal yourselves. Stay tuned and until next time, peace, love, and perspective.