Meet "The Godfather of Fermentation" Sandor Katz's Active Culture Kitchen Lay it On | Brad Leone pod

[00:00:00]Yeah. What's going I tell you what. Tell you what, it's beautiful out. Been doing a little fishing, doing a little bit of everything, I guess. A lot of baseball.

[00:00:06]Also, shout out to the Knicks, huh?

[00:00:08]Going to the finals. Taking game one.

[00:00:11]Hello. In in San Antonio. See you freaking later. All right. Let's keep it going. Let's keep it alive. Let's give it up for the boys in the Big Apple. All right. The whole gang. I do love Jaylen, though. All right. Class act. They all They're all good. They're all good boys.

[00:00:27]I tell you what. And I hope I hope we win. I don't like when people refer to teams as we, you know, but um whatever.

[00:00:36]This should be this is big. This is bake. Nick's uh game two is tomorrow, you know. They start at like 8:30. They don't go they're not over till like freaking midnight. So, you know, I record them sometimes, but sometimes I'm not going to lie, I fall asleep. But yeah, great story, Brad. Okay, what the heck? Garden's going great. garlic starting to get into the scape part of their um you know their growth cycle which means that's that delicious little crunchy garlicky part that is um I guess it'd be part of their reproductive system. All right. And it goes it's uh goes into it's like there it's when it starts to go into flour into seed and you snap that off and it allows the garlic to uh put more of its energy into creating a bigger healthier bulb underground instead of going into making you know little weird garlic seeds babies. Um so that's fun. You know there's they're always delicious. You know that's what you know that's what's great about the spring and the summer cooking seasonally seasonably. See, um, cooking within the seasons, you know, things are grow. We just had a bunch of radishes. We were eating radishes all the time. I got some tomatoes in the ground. I got eggplants, peppers, cantaloupe. All right. What else? I make blue fish dip. I was fishing with Ken and my friend, my buddy Adam, Uncle Doom. And, uh, Griff Cow caught a little blue. Nice old bluefish. Um, you know, actually, I I made the initial hook. I'm not going to lie on this one. Little asterric for the boy. But no, I'm just busting. I made the hook and I passed it to him and he fought it in. It was great. Nice size. You know what are we talking? 20 inches. Perfect. Brined it, smoked it, and uh mixed I sauteed some shallots and some um I I didn't have capers, although I wanted them. I used some cornishons and I blitzed them up with a little garlic that I sweat out and some cherry wine and then um some mustard, a little bit of mayonnaise in the roto in the rooou in the food processor. Made like a pate and it's delicious. And then I smoked the collars. Absolutely phenomenal. Yep.

[00:02:32]Pretty cool, actually. Love that. Uh, and what else is going on? What the heck are we talking about? I might try to bring We'll see. Griffin has um really talking about the fam, you know, today.

[00:02:42]The Griffin's got a freaking guitar lesson, but I kind of want to like spit and bring everybody out on the boat.

[00:02:47]We'll go to the little beach. I know the water is chilly, but it's nice out, you know. I I don't know what to I don't know what to do, but either way, you know, dogs are good. I'm watching my um my sweet partner in crime, Peggy. Her um dad uh has a dog. Her parents have a dog, Brad. Jesus Christ. And they're we're watching them and her and she's she's she's she's she's fine. She's great.

[00:03:12]She's a big ass like um doodle nofy Newfanland doodle things. All it barks at me all the time and [ __ ] We have a real like lovehate relationship, me and um me and Maggie. She weighs like [ __ ] 120 lbs. She's huge. She's got like weird eyes, like a little human.

[00:03:30]She looks at me all sassy and moody and [ __ ] She's eight. And my dogs are funny. They terrorize her and [ __ ] But I don't trust her, Maggie. She runs away, open the door, she plays little games. She thinks she's [ __ ] cute.

[00:03:40]She'll go like, "Come here, Maggie." And she'll just like run away, like look at you and just like walk away because she's kind of like a She's kind of more of like an insight. Yeah. She's got a little attitude sometimes, but you know, I can't have that on my watch. So I Peggy, that's on you. The dogs got to go out. You got to do it. I can't. or put it on a leash. I can't have it because it'll the Maggie will go running in the road. This big black dog at at dusk, you know, I don't need that [ __ ] on my watch. Dog getting freaking clipped by an F-150. Don't Oh, hey, Gordon. I got to make that phone call. We killed your dog, you know. So, you know, I mean, no, no, no, no, no. Shut that [ __ ] right down.

[00:04:18]All right, Maggie, you cannot be trusted. So, it's And she's fine with it. You know them that kind of dog.

[00:04:24]She's all about laying around all day and [ __ ] I let her out. Peggy lets her out. She's always yelling at her. She goes running away from her. It's all good, you know. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? We We'll try. We don't Great vet. Tell you that much. Well, I will try. Um but you know, worst case Ontario, you know, uh all we got to get the boys. We got to get the kid, the neighbors next door.

[00:04:44]Everybody's got to get involved. We got to dig a big hole. And you put Maggie in there with a couple of her favorite toys. Wrap her up in a in an old sheet.

[00:04:52]Wrap her up in her old uh old blanket.

[00:04:56]You know, some rosemary petals, some rosemary, you know, stems, what the [ __ ] right? Rosemary sprigs of rosemary. No, you don't need to do that.

[00:05:03]Maybe just some toys, a couple biscuits, you know, a fish head. Throw a fish head in there, whatever. Wrap her up, burrier, plant a tree over top. You know, we'll make a little gra a little stone, little grave site. But let's hope that doesn't happen. I don't want to dig the hole. I don't want to do any of that [ __ ] dog weighs 110 pounds. You know, how am I gonna I got to get a goddamn wheelbarrow. Mag is just going to stay the freaking side. All right. Or go on a leash. Got a great guest today, guys.

[00:05:29]One of my biggest uh a great inspiration of mine. Just an overall great guy. Um a real guru, a real uh a real OG in the world of fermentation. Um really excited to have a conversation with old Sandor Catz himself. But before we get into that, let's uh let's take a little phone call, see what's uh see what's in the old email. again. Send them in, guys.

[00:05:50]Videos. Ask me questions. Ask me anything. Tell me something. Just tell me something. Tell me where you're from.

[00:05:55]Tell me what's Tell me what's up. Tell me what's bothering you. Send it in to lay it on [email protected].

[00:06:01]And I swear to gosh, I swear to Maggie that I'll get back to you from Yash Patel. I'm a big fan of your videos and have so much fun watching your videos.

[00:06:10]Your energy is the best I have ever seen. Well, thank you, Yash. And yeah, you have a delightful name. Never heard Yash before. I like that. Battel on the other hand, I've I've certainly heard that one before. But Yash, it's a good one, bud. I had a question about sourdough bread. The first 15 minutes seem to help with both proofing and baking. I was wondering what uh what if we proof the dough separately in a chamber at slightly warm temperature with high humidity first uh for a little longer time. Yeah, proof your bread.

[00:06:39]That's a great idea. And then when you do it, when you do bake it at a high temp for the first clip, for the first 15, 20 minutes, you put the lid on on like a uh if you have like a Dutch oven or something like that, and it traps it, steams it, helps get that nice little outside crusty, shattery formation. Um, but yeah, proof your bread, let it know, let it be, you don't want to, you know, uh, proof your bread after you do like a retardation of the dough or a cold ferment. Um, yeah, I think you should proof it. You know, I'm just still all figuring it out there. But yeah, I think you're on the road there, bud. Um, Cash, love you. I hope that was helpful. Yeah.

[00:07:15]Yeah, it seems like you had the answer to your question yourself, but um that's what it's all about, buddy. You know, and and do that first bake with the lid on to get that little steam effect and uh and you stay beautiful, my friend.

[00:07:27]Okay, next call. Let's see. Oh, we got a video. Love that. Love that. Chris with a K from Sweden. Love you. Let's check it out. Let's get rocking here.

[00:07:36]>> Oh, hi Brad. Well, look at this whole.

[00:07:38]First of all, look at the frame on this.

[00:07:40]This guy, nice background. All right, carry on, Chris.

[00:07:43]>> First time caller, longtime viewer, listener, viewer. Uh, sending some greetings from the small island of Shern on the west coast of Sweden. Maybe I can do a little little animation here.

[00:07:56]>> Do you want to be my editor? But I felt a bit uh compelled to to call you actually because you had Andre Mack talking about his wine and how Sweden was one of his uh main export countries, the biggest one, one of them. And you had Tffy Stone headlining Sweden's biggest barbecue festival. And then you have the Swedish stallion himself, Dolph Lungrian, visiting you. So I felt as a Swede compelled to uh say hi. And uh to my question now, I kind of want to ask if you only could cook this one, the beautiful mackerel one way for the best for the rest of your life, what would how would you cook it and maybe why?

[00:08:40]And uh what do you think about an MLT, a mackerel, lettuce, and tomatoes sandwich?

[00:08:46]>> Oh my god, Chris, you're you're you're wonderful, buddy. That was a great that was a freaking phenomenal video, first of all. Okay. first of all animations, you know, and just let's give a nice little round of applause for taking the effort there, Chris. Love that. Um, yeah, I gotta get out there, man. I never been. Um, anyway, the mackerel, two things. Mackerel, lettuce, tomato, toasted white bread with some like garlic mayonnaise. Home run. Love it.

[00:09:13]You know, maybe pan fry it real nice.

[00:09:16]Oh, sounds delicious. I'd eat that right now. Oh, you bet your butt. I'd eat that right now. Um, but to answer your original question there, Chris, I think I would um clean it nice, cook it whole, maybe cut a little, you know, maybe even butterfly it and do a little quick brine and then and then dry it and then not dry it dry, but let you know, let it take it out of the brine or even just do some salt or something on there. Let it sit on salt for like a couple hours. Uh, and then I want to like grill it whole fire pizza oven or like over charcoal or over wood or something. Um, and just get it nice and blistery where the meat just pulls right off the bone. Uh, I could eat that every day. It's so freaking good. Rub it with a little fine salt and let the skin just blister up. One of the best fish out there, man. One of my favorite fishes. And uh, eat more bait.

[00:10:03]That's what I say. You know, that's there. And there's a reason. Chris, you seem like a heck of a guy. If I ever get out there, actually, if you um, do you edit videos? If you do, uh, I I you know, call me, bud. Well, maybe I'll have you edit something because you did a really nice job on that little thing there. Uh, hey Chris, thanks for calling in, bud. And uh, yeah. Heck yeah. We'll see you next time. For those of you out there that are truck guys, you know, like I'm kind of like me. I got a Tundra. I love it. I want to talk to you about Decked. If you don't know about Decked, well, they make bombproof draw systems to keep your gear organized and safely locked up in the back of the truck. tool, gears, packs can all get organized at the ready, so you don't got to go wondering where the heck everything is all the time. Squared away, tucked away, weatherproof. All right, don't be that guy. Things rolling around in the back, getting a little silly, getting a little stolen, getting a little unorganized. Okay, no, that's not what we're talking about. You can get the two drawer system for the dimensions of a fullsize truck bed or a single draw for a midsize. And maybe best of all, they're all made in the USA. Gosh darn it. So, get decked. Get after it. Check him out. deck.com.

[00:11:10]Always shipping is free. Always, baby.

[00:11:13]All right, let's get into it today. All right, we got a big guest. One of my favorite guys uh in the fermentation world. Been following him for a long time. Uh been, you know, reading his books. He's got a bunch of them. Uh some of them I consider some of the, you know, the the Bibles of fermentation, including his new one, Sandor Cat's Fermentation Journeys. All right. and he's, you know, he's got a handful of books and they've always just been kind of, you know, just classic staple bibles of the fermentation world and, uh, he's just an inspiration and has always been just a keystone in the in in the community of fermentation. So, uh, let's give a nice warm welcome to the one and the only, the beautiful Sandor County.

[00:11:57][music] Well, I'm so happy to be speaking with you.

[00:12:10]>> Hey, you're I the back where where are you calling in from?

[00:12:13]>> I mean, I this this is my home. I'm I'm in my kitchen. So, I'm in Tennessee. I live uh almost in the geographic center of Tennessee, southeast of Nashville in a in a pretty rural county.

[00:12:26]>> Pardon my ignorance. T is Tennessee.

[00:12:28]That is not Eastern Standard Time, right?

[00:12:31]>> Well, Tennessee actually is so long that we split in the middle. So, I'm actually I'm in central time. Um, but I have friends who live uh, you know, an hour and a half away who live in Eastern time. So, we are near the eastern uh, edge of the central time zone.

[00:12:49]>> That's pretty cool. Hey, so na Yeah. So, outside of Nashville, you said?

[00:12:53]>> Yeah. A good ways out. I mean, I live down a dirt road that the electric utilities never gone down. Um, so we're on uh we're on solar electrical. Um, and um, you know, it's a steep dirt road that um, you know, when we have a big rain sometimes is terrible for a little while.

[00:13:11]>> Um, >> so you got some woods around you, too.

[00:13:13]Sounds like a pretty great spot to be, huh?

[00:13:15]>> Yeah. Yeah, we're just in a clearing in the woods. Exactly. Um, no, it's really I mean it's idyllic here. like I you know like most days I just like walk outside my house and I just am like I can't believe I live in such a a beautiful remote place. Um >> again I wish I had a map in front of me but like when is the part of Nashville you're in is that still part of like does the Appalachian Mountains kind of kiss through there or the blue that what are the mountains in there? Are you more >> Well the I mean in East Tennessee we have the Smoky Mountains. Um, you know, I mean, we're we're more in like foothills. Um, so we live in a really hilly area, which and you know, part of the reason this area has never really been intensively developed is that land form is also steep. It's hills and hollows. So there's never really been any big agriculture here. And um, you know, there's no real like big scale real estate development.

[00:14:13]>> So probably some good foraging, some good mushrooms, and some good Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean lots of lots of mushrooms. Um, no, we we we we find a lot of mushrooms. Um, lots of um uh uh wild pimmens, lots of paw paws, um lots of ramps, uh lots of wild flowers.

[00:14:35]>> We I have a tree that was gifted to me.

[00:14:38]Um it was it was, you know, it was about three feet high and it's on its third year, but it never really, excuse me, flourishes. And I know they probably take a while.

[00:14:46]>> They they they they they take a while and they tend to grow in forested areas, so they like the protection of other trees, >> like a little understory tree.

[00:14:57]>> Yeah.

[00:14:57]>> Man, what a cool fruit, huh? It's a >> Yeah. Oh my god. I mean I I mean to me it's just so emblematic of out where we are with food that you know the largest fruit that's native to North America nobody who's not interested in foraging knows about >> and it tastes like it could have came from Jamaica, you know, like it >> it's like it's like a little tropical cocktail, you know? It's >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean it's a really I mean it's delicious and unique flavor and it's the only member of that family that's a that's a temperate uh uh fruit rather than a tropical fruit. So it really does have the feel of >> Yeah. Really cool, man. So you do any gardening down in you do any home gardening?

[00:15:43]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean I I'm actually uh I can actually reach over.

[00:15:47]I'm just like I'm curing my onions.

[00:15:50]>> Um we've just been harvesting onions. Um uh probably in the next week we'll harvest our garlic. Um and then all the summer stuff is is growing and you know within a few weeks we'll start having you know some basil, some cucumbers, some of the early >> You're a little bit ahead of me. I'm up in on the uh Connecticut Rhode Island uh border. Same with me. My garlic's just starting to get into some you know the scape spots where I'm Yeah. had have to clip those off pretty soon. And uh I I up my uh production this year. I I'm at 378 or six bulbs I put in. So, we got >> So, you'll have enough for one day every one bulb every day of the year >> and then and then a few left to plant for next year.

[00:16:34]>> And I expanded my uh genetics of it this year. I ordered a few from some pretty cool stuff some farms online that sent over some like, you know, some different unique uh varieties of it. some a Vietnamese type which actually grew or was a Thai type that actually grew quite a bit smaller than the ones that I've been growing and this big like Siberian one that you know yeah so it's kind of cool to see the different types of garlic and yeah I mean it's always fun to experiment with different things I mean I a couple of years ago I got seeds for this um Peruvian herb called wacate um and it's basically naturalized to my garden so I actually haven't planted it since But it just keeps on coming back and it's really really delicious. It's a mar it's a maragold family plant. It has this like very fresh bright flavor >> but it's it's it's different from it's not really sour like sorrel. It's maybe like >> you know a little bit minty.

[00:17:35]Um some people think it reminds them of cilantro. It doesn't really remind me of a little fresh zesty type.

[00:17:41]But it it's it's just got its own unique flavor. And I don't know if you've had the chance to to go to Peru, but you know, Peru has like some of the most wonderful food in the world. And um you know, that that herb uh uh hakate is very commonly uh used in Peruvian cuisine.

[00:18:00]>> I'm glad you brought up Peru because it's been kind of on the on the on the top of the list of a destination to go um for for many reasons, including like you mentioned the culinary aspect. I mean to to my understanding I think even like a lot of thing I mean I think it's known for potatoes right but I think like a lot of different varieties of of plants are it's a very diverse grow and a very diverse country. Yeah. I mean >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well certainly I mean I've had fun playing with the sort of fermented dried uh um kinds of potatoes that are the you know the precursors to the the the potatoes that we're familiar with. Um um but that's you know that's really a a cool thing that you find in in in market.

[00:18:44]>> Is it what a fermented potato?

[00:18:45]>> Um yeah yeah yeah sure. No it's um actually if if if I can like run off screen for 30 seconds I'll show them to you. So this will be a common product that you would find in a market and >> well I mean I don't think that like your typical [snorts] um you know like middle class city people in Peru are eating this but if you go um to the markets in the Andes um um you'll you'll always find these. And um let's see these are called chuno. This is from my my my fermented food museum. But here you can see like a little um it's like a little stone. I mean it's it's as hard it's as hard as a stone.

[00:19:28]>> Do you grade it?

[00:19:28]>> Um >> no no what you do is you soak it in water like you soak it overnight in water. But you know evidently these when they grow they're so bitter that you can't eat them. So, you know, the way they're um, you know, made to be palatable is, you know, at the high altitudes, at the time when they're harvesting them, the nights are really cold and then the days get really warm.

[00:19:56]So, they're freezing at night and then thawing and fermenting in the day and then freezing at night and then uh thawing and fermenting in the day. So you get this sort of like cycle of of um freezing and um fermenting and then in the end they dry because the air is so dry up there.

[00:20:18]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so they're then they become the the fermentation breaks down the bitter alkaloids that make it bitter in the first place. Um and then um you know the they basically become freeze dried. So then they're they're shelf stable. So, it's a perfect storage food. And then people soak them in water. But, I mean, it doesn't stay crunchy when you soak it in water. When you soak it long enough, you know, it it it it basically develops the texture of a of a typical potato, you know, soft and um >> and then you can cook it from there or add fat or, you know, whatever.

[00:20:54]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:20:55]>> That's that's really >> you know, I don't I mean, I don't know that much about how they're typically prepared, but the preparations that I had were not potatoes alone. They were potatoes cooked with, you know, fat and other kinds of seasonings. And >> that's pretty neat. Never heard of that.

[00:21:11]But like and it's I'm fascinated with you think like most things you think it happened by accident first like most fermentation processes. You they just they it was happening naturally in the Andes in the soil in those fluctuations of temperatures and then they kind of just found one that was dried like that and soaked it. Who knows?

[00:21:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I you know I mean I think that the origins of fermentation practices are are really interesting and of course almost all fermentation processes are so old that we don't specifically know anything about their origins but all we can do is speculate and so yeah I mean it seems like um you know a lot of the processes are so elaborate that it that it almost seems unlikely that people would have figured them out and yet they did. But it's easy to imagine with something like that. You harvest your potatoes, you leave them in the sun to dry off a little bit, then the night comes and they freeze. And you know, it's it's sort of easy to imagine how how this process could have come to be.

[00:22:21]>> Well, I noticed I got your uh your book that's coming out pretty soon. Uh you and Amazing.

[00:22:26]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, this this this book I actually originally came out um um in the pandemic in 2021. Um but now it's it's finally coming out in paperback, which um which I'm super excited about for it to be uh uh more available. And I mean, this really was my um you know, my pandemic project. um you know because my um you know in my in my charmed life I've gotten invited to teach in all these incredible places and then my hosts always take me to like learn about really interesting fermentation traditions in different places and so I've been like you know collecting information taking notes trying things when I get home um uh photographs and I always had the idea that I would like turn it into some sort of book and then when the pandemic happened and everything was cancelled Suddenly, suddenly I was like, "Well, I might as well work on this book." I had a great time to do it. So, um, so, so, so, so I did it. But I'm so glad that it's coming out in paperback so that it'll be more accessible for more people. And it's just about, you know, interesting fermented foods and beverages that I've been able to learn about mostly in my travels sometimes from um I actually am in the middle of doing one that's really fun that that's that's in this book and that is um so the other day, you know, every year I go to my friend's biodnamic farm and I harvest like a truckload full of dicons and usually some um >> Oh, it's a great operation. And he's got a That's a beautiful farm, huh?

[00:23:58]>> And then I had uh then I have this 100 liter vessel and I like I shred some veggies. I leave some of the veggies whole. I salt them. I fill up this this this this big vessel. Uh usually at the end of October or the beginning of November. Um and then I need to use it up by like June because my root cellar just gets too warm in the hot summer months. Uh it'll get soft and mushy. So I so I dug out the the the last of it.

[00:24:28]Um and here this is this is one of the the jars of the of the delicious radish kraut. But of course there's tons of excess juice. So this is a kraut juice.

[00:24:39]And I mean I do love to drink it. I actually went to my friend's birthday party the other day and I got everybody to do shots of crout.

[00:24:48]>> Perfect little probiotic bomb there.

[00:24:50]Yeah.

[00:24:51]>> Ah. Oh yeah. Wake up. I bet you that's fragrant the proc radishes. Every time I ferment radishes, they are quite uh >> I mean they're >> But what's really fragrant is right now I'm making crystal salts out of them. So I have my dehydrator going and these are little brine.

[00:25:08]>> Just evaporate down the the brine.

[00:25:11]>> Well, I mean actually the the technique which I explain in fermentation journeys is um you actually take your brine and you saturate it with salt. you add more salt until until you can't get any more salt to dissolve in there. Cuz if you take something that's like 2% salt or this actually is probably lower around one and a half% salt. Um >> there's less salt than other kinds of fermentation byproducts in there.

[00:25:40]>> Um so it doesn't necessarily crystallize. It'll you'll get more of like a sludge if you dry it all the way.

[00:25:47]Whereas if you saturate it with salt so that you definitively have much more salt than anything else, then you get these sort of like colored salt crystals um that you know they're they're extremely salty, but they also have flavor from the radishes. They have lactic acid. They have probiotics. They have they have they've got all all the good stuff. And so if you have brines of different vegetables, >> of different colors with different seasonings, you can have this whole like range of seasoning salts uh that you make with >> a great idea. A little kind of garnishing finishing kind of a funky little salt there.

[00:26:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I I actually learned this from a guy in the Netherlands who, you know, was at a festival that I was at and he was selling all of these different color salts and um, they were incredibly delicious. And then um, you know, I'd had a little bit of experience trying to dehydrate it and then ended up ending up with this sludge. I actually have a little jar that that's labeled crouch tar. That's um, that was one of my earlier attempts. But, you know, sometimes you just meet the right person who's done all of this experimenting and figured out the technique.

[00:27:05]>> I love it. Hey, before I want to talk more about your the book and just your overall journey of fermentation, but before that, I want where did you grow up, Sander?

[00:27:15]>> Um, I grew up in New York City on the upper on the upper west side of Manhattan. And actually, my brother still lives in the rent stabilized apartment. We grew up. So when I when I go to New York, I get to stay I call it my ancestral apartment. And um when I was there in you know a lot people always imagine New York as this just like trans transient place where people are coming and going. And of course that is true but there really are people who spend their whole lives in New York. And when I went to New York in April and I showed up at my brother's building, these two women who I've known my entire life and now they're now they're pretty elderly, but they were sitting in front of the building. So it was like, "Oh my god, so excited to see you." Um, so it, you know, it really was like a you know, like a small town uh uh >> Yeah. There's still a neighbor and like you said, man, some people like there's people in New York that probably have never left the burrows in their life, >> you know.

[00:28:11]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, actually I have a friend who's like who's who who's whose brother prides himself on never leaving Manhattan. Like he's been years and years and he's never left Manhattan.

[00:28:21]>> Well, that's a pretty pretty cool place to grow up then. Upper west side. You said upper east side.

[00:28:26]>> Yeah, >> upper west side.

[00:28:27]>> And um >> so was fermentation part of your like were your parents into it or how? No, >> not not exactly. Um, I mean, you know, my parents like to cook, so I I I certainly was expected to help out in the kitchen. Um, but I, you know, they neither of them was fermenting or or or anything like that. But, you know, I would say the childhood influence that really predisposed me to my interest in fermentation is pickles. And you know, my mother's parents, who we were very close to and saw all the time, were um immigrants from what is now Bellarus.

[00:29:05]And um you know, we just always had the Eastern European style pickles in our um uh in our in our fridge. And um you know, to me that was just a pickle. That was really the only kind of pickle that I that that I knew. But I loved them.

[00:29:20]And then later on when I went to college and you know I I I was no longer like you know in in New York um I discovered that people have a lot of different ideas about what a pickle is and um you know I mean I've actually never met a pickle I didn't like. I I like pretty much every style of pickles, but you know, the the sort of sweet like bread and butter style pickles, the you know, extremely sour uh vinegar pickles. Um >> you know, these all none of them tasted as good to me as the sour pickles of my childhood. Um, and so I was really drawn to this flavor that at the time I couldn't have named, but you know, now I understand that it's the flavor of lactic acid and that the style of pickles that my family was eating are basically just cucumbers fermented in a saltwater brine solution with dill and garlic and sometimes other seasonings.

[00:30:15]And so, you know, I I have become proficient at making these. Um, ironically, cucumbers are really the most challenging of vegetables to ferment, I would say. Um, and uh, you know, it it took me it took me some time to to get the timing right, especially here in Tennessee. I mean, because that's a you know, that's a tradition that like comes from Russia. And, um, you know, in Russia, the summer days don't get to be super super hot, but in Tennessee, your typical summer day is very, very hot. And even in New York, your typical summer day is very, very hot. So, you know, the the the trick, well, there's a number of tricks, but I mean, the ultimate trick is just you only ferment them for a few days at ambient temperature, and then once the fermentation starts, you move it to the fridge and let it continue more slowly at the cooler refrigerator temperatures, and then you can really maintain the crispiness. The big problem that people have is it's easy for a cucumber to get soft and mushy uh over the course of the >> a little low and slow cold there. It kind of really halts the whole rotting process, right? And um and you mentioned just being tricky to ferment for that reason there, right? Do you ever like introduce tannins like oak leaves or >> Yeah. Yeah, sure. So, I always use gra I always put in a handful of grape leaves when I do them. Um, you know, I always scrape away the um the the residue of the blossom. So, I kind of handle each cucumber and scrape away that that that residue because that's where you have the highest concentration of the enzymes that can break down the pectin and make them soft and mushy. Um, if they're not super fresh, I soak them in ice water before I begin the fermentation. So, you know, I have a few things that I do. I always use a pretty strong brine, a 5% brine to make to make sure it's it's um pretty salty. Um but I but I find that, you know, even with all of those pickles, if you leave if you left them for two weeks in a in a really warm uh like over 80°ree uh temperature, um they're just going to turn to mush there. But man, you're right. There's there's something something magical, right, about a garlicky just perfect half sour, even a little more s but just a nice garlicky pickle, right? Like there >> I don't get some people say they don't like pickles and to each their own, but I don't I I don't get it. They're perfect.

[00:32:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, hard for me to relate just cuz I mean, you know, I was the one in my family who like if the pickles were all gone from the pickle jar, they would all look at me like I was the the the prime suspect. Um, just because I love pickles so much and um, you know, I was always uh, I I was I was always >> So, New York, great place to grow up. I mean, I grew up in New Jersey, not too too far away there, about an hour outside of Manhattan. Um, >> what was was college uh, in the in the cards for you or?

[00:33:11]>> Yeah. Yeah, sure. I went to college not far from where you live. I I went to college in Providence, Rhode Island. I went to I went to Brown University. I majored in history.

[00:33:22]Um I I certainly you know I did not specifically get interested in fermentation at that time of my life. It was really you know and then after college I I lived in Chicago briefly. I was back in New York. Um but it was only when I moved down to Tennessee and started gardening and had like a practical reason to look into fermentation that I you know started learning about how to ferment things.

[00:33:50]product of necessity where you have this bumper crop something like cucumbers or zucchini or you name it you know where you could outside of just pressure canning or drying some some cool things you can do and I always tell people want to get into ferment make a kraut you know it's like it's the most rewarding and I dare I say easiest thing to do you know it's >> yeah no I totally agree with you I mean and and I mean sauerkraut was my gateway into fermentation and it's what I always recommend to people as a as a first step. I mean, for a number of reasons. I mean, one, it's pretty much foolproof.

[00:34:26]It's >> delicious.

[00:34:26]>> Um uh um it's incredibly delicious. It's um versatile. You can like, you know, I I mean, it doesn't have to just be cabbage and and and salt. I mean, you can you can mix it up with other kinds of vegetables, with with interesting seasonings, um with, you know, cutting the cabbage differently. um you know there's a there's there's a lot you can do to mix it up. Um and then the other thing is because so many people just have this like deep deep fear about fermentation and I I mean I have such a vivid image from the first time I I taught a sauerkraut making workshop was which was in 1998. I remember this young woman like holding up a jar of the vegetables that we' just been shredding and salting and she had this really worried look on her face while she was looking at it.

[00:35:17]And her question was, "How can I be sure I have good bacteria growing in here and not some dangerous bacteria that could make someone sick or even kill somebody?" Um, you know, because so many people have fears like that. Sauerkraut is a great first project because it is so so safe. Like food does not get safer than sour.

[00:35:41]>> Talk to me about that. What makes it so bulletproof? Is it the salt, the lactic acid, all the above?

[00:35:47]>> It's the lactic acid. It's the lactic acid. It's not I mean, it's not the salt. I mean, it's it's possible to make perfectly safe sauerkraut with no salt at all. I wouldn't recommend it. It doesn't taste very good. It doesn't maintain a very pleasing texture. But um um but the salt is not the thing that keeps it safe. It's the lactic acid that that makes it so safe. And so, you know, let's just imagine we had a a head of cabbage that, you know, had some cells of salmonella and eoli. Um >> because there are contaminants and things all over the place. I mean, like there's >> Well, sure. I mean, you know, every year we read about outbreaks of food poisoning stemming from raw vegetables.

[00:36:31]One year it was [snorts] red onions, one year it was lettuce, one year it was spinach. So, I mean, clearly there's there's the possibility of contamination in the field or in, you know, handling from people who have like failed to, you know, follow basic hygiene guidelines. But usually it's in the field. And usually what it is is a field uphill with animals like manure is washing down and um um getting on the vegetables. So I mean that definitely can happen and I hope no one who is um watching your podcast um is avoiding eating raw vegetables just because there is a greater than zero possibility of contamination of raw vegetables. Um but the point is if the cabbage or other vegetables that you're working with happen to have cells of salmonella ecoli once you create the conditions where the lactic acid bacteria which are always present on all plants growing out of soil on planet earth that's right >> once we set up the conditions where that can proliferate which basically means the vegetables submerged protected from the continual flow of air and oxygen um Then as the acidity of the environment increases because of the lactic acid bacteria metabolizing carbohydrates into lactic acid, the salmonella and ecoli can't survive in an acidic environment.

[00:37:58]So they are destroyed and it's just very convenient for us that acidification destroys the you know limited range of bacteria that have the potential to make us sick. So, it's a great great strategy for >> Do you think on an ancient level that's why we desire acidic foods and tangy things is because for for thousands of years it's been a sign of maybe a type of food safety.

[00:38:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. No, I I can I can totally um I can totally see that. or or you know or maybe even um you know because evolution is all about you know it's it's it's the best adapted that survive. But if like you know it's basically the people with genetics to be able to enjoy sour flavors >> just survived at a higher rate and ended up like becoming the the the the the norm. Um, but yeah, no, I mean, I think it's it's it's very convenient for us and of course, you know, those of us who, you know, fully embrace the flavors of of sour foods get to really enjoy the the benefit of that. I mean it's interesting because the you know there in the last decade in Korea there have been some cases of food poisoning related to kimchi but it's it's really because many young people in Korea like have rejected the sour flavor. So they're wanting kimchi that has barely been fermented or maybe not been fermented at all. So it's not that it's that dangerous to eat vegetables that have been fermented for a day. Um, but they still have the nonzero risk that raw vegetables have.

[00:39:40]>> Yeah, that's an interesting point and and that that fermented vegetables are safer. Not that it's dangerous necessarily, like you were mentioning before, but yeah, I mean, you are you're creating an atmosphere where the dangerous things can't live. And that that's that's amazing, man. It just so happens to also be very good for our for our gut health and for and just for table fair in general. Um, so what was the next steps for you as you got into like when did you start doing work? Were you working were you always in the food industry as far as job? No.

[00:40:10]>> No. I've I've actually never been in the food industry. I It's not not never. I mean, I was a waiter in a restaurant in New York for about six months. Um Um, but I've never I've never worked in a commercial kitchen. Um, you know, I've I've always loved to eat. I've always loved to cook. I've I've always been very interested in food. I as a as a young adult I was sort of obsessed with making things from scratch. Um I mean I remember in my apartment in New York I made paneer. I wanted to learn how to make sag paneer and I my first cheese making was um you know acid curdled cheese to make paneer so I could make sag paneer when I was 20some uh still living in New York. Um uh but then when I moved to New York, when I moved to Tennessee, I mean, first it was vegetables because, you know, there I was in the garden and I was like learning to garden and and um you know, grappling with um you know, seasonal overabundance, but then also, you know, that that same uh uh uh first summer that I was gardening, I also was learning about foraging and we had all these uh um elderberries, we had all these blackberries. So I started like you know looking at books about wine making and and and and figuring out how I could make wine out of these um abundant berries. Um we also had a herd of goats in the community that I was living in. So we sometimes had a lot of milk. So I started playing around with cheese making and making yogurt. Um uh I got interested in sourdough and I started my first sourdough starter. I mean, you made you made a point before that a lot of people and I've experienced it as well over the years are very intimidated or scared of the idea of fermentation, but when you really peel back the layers, it's kind of a all it's in every culture all around the world and it's also in just a lot of things that people like like bread like you know what I'm saying like a lot of things are fermented cheeses and >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because of what I do. You know, I I I call myself a fermentation revivalist. And um I mean, most of the people I meet, it's in a context where they're coming to learn about fermentation, but once in a while, I'll be like at a friend's party meeting a stranger. Oh, oh, what do you do? Oh, I I I I write books and teach about fermented foods and beverages. And there's this face that people sometimes make. It's like they're they're just like they're they're just imagining like the strongest flavored fermented thing that somebody tried to share with them or that they were afraid to taste and they just like as a category they they think that they reject fermented foods and beverages. And then you know my response is always like wow poor you that must be so hard to completely avoid all fermented foods. like no bread, no cheese, no vinegar, no beer, no wine, no chocolate, no coffee, no vanilla. And then then, you know, by this point they're they're like, "Oh, oh, I like most of those things." Um, you know, somebody once like tried to get me to taste the rogford cheese that was too strong for me or um, you know, once uh um, somebody somebody fed me some kimchi that was too spicy for, you know, it's always like something on the extremes made them feel like they didn't like fermented food, but once they're confronted with the fact of how integral fermentation is to their familiar um, um, you know, food universe, then they realize like, oh, they're certainly not avoiding everything fermented. I mean, it would take a tremendous amount of work. You think being gluten-free is hard? Like, you know, trying to be completely fermentationfree um would be really, really hard. Like, you have no idea how many things are marinated in a vinegar solution. Um, you know, it's just it's >> like I've always thought of it too as like um kind of the foundation of umami, you know.

[00:44:17]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:44:19]>> You know, you mentioned chocolate, too.

[00:44:20]I remember a bunch of years ago, I had this amazing opportunity to go make a video down in Ecuador and we got to go on to this um chocolate uh farm and see how it was processed and how I didn't know until then, you know, that it was a fermented product where they take those co, you know, the cacao the the nibs are covered in this it looks like an alien egg and it has this like sweet delicious like membrane surrounding the seeds and they piled them into these bins and covered them with banana leaves. And I remember visiting one of the bins and he said, "Stick your hands in there." And I had rubber gloves on because it was so acidic. Um, but it was like hot. It was like burning my hands because of how aggressively it was fermenting. And to my knowledge, I think like most except for maybe some like really aggressive commercialized chocolate process, I think is mostly fermented.

[00:45:14]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Because well well here's the thing is it's just you know each of the cacao seeds has a little pulpy juicy fruit around it and you know just the easiest way to break to to get that pulp off is just to let fermentation break it down. Um and so like juices dripping. Um that juice that is that juice is so delicious. The the fresh cacao juice, the fermented cacao juice is even more uh uh delicious. But then you know while that's happening which makes the process easier there it's also driving biochemical changes in the cacao uh um bean itself. And so, you know, part of the the flavor that we love so much um you know, is developing by virtue of the fermentation.

[00:46:07][clears throat] Um you know, it's very it's very rare that um that chocolate processing is done in the same place that the cacao is grown. But I did I also visited a farm in Ecuador called Mach Pi and they were actually making chocolate bars on the farm and some of the chocolate bars they were putting delicious um um uh pieces of the partially dried cacao fruit um which was a really beautiful uh combination.

[00:46:38]>> That was delicious. So it was like a dried little like dried fruit kind of leathery >> little nib in it.

[00:46:44]>> Yeah.

[00:46:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ecuador is such a beautiful country. I I would I'm I'm dying to go back. We spent uh we flew into what the the capital Kito, I believe, right? Where it's and I think it's like almost 10,000 elevation. And it was just I was just blown away with how beautiful it was and how beautiful the people were. Um >> yeah, and really varied topography. I mean, for you know, a relatively small country, I mean, they have like lowland jungles, they have incredible highland areas, and you know, I've only seen little bits of it.

[00:47:15]>> Same. Well, I've noticed, you know, in in your book there's you showcase a lot of fermentation from around the world and in different cultures of it. Um, talk I mean, what were it sounds like you've gotten to travel quite a bit and and learn learn a bunch over the years, huh?

[00:47:30]>> Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, you know, this this this book um you know, contains all kinds of things from, you know, I just I just opened it to um uh uh Croatian um uh uh whole sour cabbages and like in southeastern Europe where Croatia is like the I would say the former Yugoslavia lands, the Balkans, um a lot of the cabbage fermentation is done with whole heads of cabbage rather than shredded cabbage. Um, and then they might shred some of it and make sauerkraut, but then they peel the the big whole fermented cabbage leaves off.

[00:48:08]And um, that's the basis for Sarma. Uh, uh, their stuffed cabbage. So, you know, I have like I have directions in here for how to ferment whole cabbages like that and how to make um, uh, incredibly delicious uh, Croatian style uh, sarma.

[00:48:27]I have a lot in the in the book that I learned about in China that >> um and I I you know I did some traveling in China in uh in 2016 and just learned a a ton. So I have like some vegetable fermentation from China.

[00:48:45]Um a a poutai with a with a perpetual brine. I actually have a a poutai brine um you know here in my kitchen that is you know dates to 2017. So you know over time I I have to add more salt to it. I I add more seasonings to it. But you know the the basis of it you know is is is 9 years old now. Um, I also learned a little bit about um some ways that people in China are fermenting fish and meat using rice.

[00:49:19]>> And um and then you know this this sort of emerges as a theme because um when I went to Japan, one of my uh obsessive interests there was uh experiencing narushi which is sushi where the fish is fermented in the rice. And if you think about the sushi that's gone global that you know you have in Stonington and I have in Murreey'sboro, Tennessee, um you know that's all based on raw fish. And would you necessarily eat sushi in a sushi place that didn't have a refrigerator? Well, you know, up until a 100 years ago, nobody had a refrigerator. So, you know, the the more historical sushi is basically sushi where um u you know, the fish is preserved in a bed of rice that's fermenting and creating acids. Again, this issue of >> Yeah.

[00:50:15]>> cooked rice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

[00:50:17]Uh and then I and then actually the last recipe in the book is a Thai style of fermenting. Um it's called nem. Uh and I I'm not doing the word justice. I don't know the the correct Thai pronunciation, N Am, but it's basically pork ribs fermented in rice. And one of the amazing things about these these processes that you find like all across Asia is one of the limitations in trying to preserve meat or fish using fermentation is that the macronutrient that fermentss into acids that enable food to be preserved so effectively and so safely is carbohydrates. And um you know meat and fish uh have a lot of protein and in many places have a lot many many many cases have a lot of fat but they don't have much carbohydrates.

[00:51:09]So, the way that a lot of Asian cultures have dealt with this is trying to preserve meat in a bed of cooked rice with some raw seasonings that initiate an acidic fermentation of the rice to produce lots of acid in order to effectively um uh and safely preserve the fish or >> salt added as well.

[00:51:33]>> Um >> Yeah.

[00:51:34]>> Yeah. Yeah. There's always there's there's there's certainly always some salt in in that mix. Yeah.

[00:51:39]>> Well, that's fascinating because you're basically, like you said, using that rice to keep alive and thrive the good bacterias and without it, they probably would die off from starvation, allowing bad rot to happen.

[00:51:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, there are plenty of um, you know, wonderful examples of fermented meat and fish products that don't involve rice, but generally they involve, you know, some sort of a a pretty unique environment, >> whereas, you know, in a bed of rice, you can just do it in any kind of environment. So, you know, in a hot tropical place like Thailand, in a, you know, cooler temperate place like Japan.

[00:52:23]Um, um, so there's just like lots and lots of these traditions. And I really I I have a whole chapter delving into a bunch of different examples of this in uh in in in >> I love that. You could spend lifetimes, right, uh, learning and traveling in the world of food and fermentation in especially just in in Asia for that matter, you know, it seems like such a >> Yeah.

[00:52:46]>> Uh, yeah, sure. Sure. I mean I mean Asia is very rich, but I mean everywhere is very rich. I mean, I just was uh I was teaching last month in Portugal. Um, and um, you know, there's some really really interesting wine making in Portugal that's really different from what I've seen. I visited this this place where they're not crushing the the grapes at all. They're just ferment they're just putting the grapes in the vessel and letting them um um like fall apart in in their own time. And then the whole fermentation is with the grapes uh um with the skins and some of the stems in there. And then in the and and they do them in these big um ceramic like emporas and then the only filtration is they're filtering the wine through the solid residues.

[00:53:42]Um and so you get like little little bits and pieces in the in in in the bottle of wine. But um like I like I loved this style of wine and um uh you know it was just different from anything I'd ever seen before. And this is the thing with fermentation is there's just like there's so many different ways that that that that people do it. Um and um you know for me it's not even about like there's a best way. Like there's not a best way. There's just like so many different ways and each way you know offers its own advantages and has its own challenges.

[00:54:20]>> Yeah. Well said. And um and I just love how you just can always continue to learn with it too. You know, it's like I like you never I guess this can apply to anything, but you never really like master it or get bored because you can deviate from certain there's so much room to play.

[00:54:36]>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Totally. No.

[00:54:39]And I'm I mean, you know, even the ba even the really simple things. So, um uh uh last week I made some tempeh. Um, and you know, I I I mean, I I really I honestly have nothing against soybeans, but like I hardly ever make tempe with soybeans anymore. So, this batch that I made is made with um split peas. And one of the things that's great about split peas just in terms of the complexities of making tempeh is they're already split. If you want to make tempeh from soybeans, you've got to figure out a way to split those soybeans to get the holes off. So here this is you can see the split peas. It's split peas and buckwheat.

[00:55:19]>> Um and it's just really really delicious flavor. It's got like a lovely texture to it. Um I've been really I've been really loving >> How do you usually prepare it? Do you usually cook it?

[00:55:33]Well, so, okay, lately what I've been doing is marrying um tempeh with cooji and I've just been marinating it in with various cooji things. I've been using shioji and miso u mixing them all together um and just marinating the slices for a few hours at room temperature. And so, you know, cooji has all these enzymes that sort of break down more of the proteins into amino acids. You you use the word umami. Umami is the Japanese word for like the sixth flavor, the savory flavor. But umami is really the flavor of certain amino acids. And amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. So, you know, when you take a a a protein and break it down, you get more flavor. Um, and this is like, okay, this is the secret of so many cheeses. Like, think about >> dryaged meat. I mean, that's why people love that.

[00:56:35]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. But like the mild flavor of milk compared to the extreme flavor of certain um uh cheeses where you haven't added anything other than maybe salt um um to it. But it's because when you break down proteins, it just it just flavor explodes. Um, and the same with soybeans. Like, if you ever eat just a bowl of plain soybeans, it's it's pretty it's pretty it's a pretty mild plain food, but then it has all this flavor potential that becomes, you know, soy sauce and miso um um and all of these other sort of like umami rich uh uh uh foods. But um um you know this is the power of these cooji enzymes is it can break down uh proteins in ways that you know really unleash the umami flavor.

[00:57:27]>> Well hey what other um you got any projects going on around the house? Any long-term fermentss?

[00:57:32]>> Well I mean definitely in the cellar I have miso here. Actually I have a jar of miso right here. Um outside of my house I have these three chestnut trees.

[00:57:42]>> American chestnut. So, this is this is chestnut miso. Um, no, no, no. They're they're, you know, Chinese or European chestnuts. I'm not sure. They were they were already mature trees when I moved here.

[00:57:54]>> Um, >> that's probably delicious and very unique. But so what I do is I grow cooji on some of the chestnuts and then I steam more chestnuts and I grind them up and I mix the the chestnut uh cooji with the um just steamed uh uh chestnuts and uh and salt. So, you know, this this miso is really just chestnuts and salt um with no other grain or anything as a as as a source of the cooji. Um but I've been really, you know, I I guess I've been emboldened by just, you know, seeing all the experimentation on Instagram. Um you know, um um you know, reading my friends, uh Jeremy Mansky and Rich She's incredible book, Cooji Alchemy. But I've just gotten much more experimental in my um in my miso making. Um actually my most outrageous one that you'll appreciate is I've been making chicken chicken feet.

[00:58:56]>> Oh, go on Sandra.

[00:58:58]>> So um so my my friend who raises chickens, who I buy chickens from, um uh at some point I realized he was throwing away the feet and I asked I was like, "Would you please save me the feet? I'll use them." Um and mostly I make stock out of them. They just make the most like you know outrageous like thick silky beautiful stock. But then um you know after visiting Jeremysky and he gave me this this this this jar of chicken miso made from the residue of stock making. I decided to to take some of the um chicken feet after I um uh simmered them into stock and grind them up in a little meat grinder. mix them with cooji and salt and um chicken feet miso is just incredibly >> cartilagey little bone and all just gets ground up into >> everything. I mean cuz you know I've already I've already boiled it for like you know 8 hours something like that.

[00:59:57]>> Um so they just get really soft and once you run it through the the grinder and then it fermentss further with cooji it just gets smooth smooth like you can just you can just make a miso broth with it. It is incredibly delicious. And you know, because of that high collagen content, it's just like >> it's just like the silkiest miso I've ever >> It's like a little misoy type of And it's a paste. Is it How well do you grind it? Are we talking real fine or is it got some little texture in there?

[01:00:32]I mean, you know, I I wouldn't say I have like the I don't have the like the the finest meat grinder in the world.

[01:00:40]Um, but but you know, it it breaks it down enough in the grinding that it that the fermentation breaks it down further into something that's really very very smooth. I'm not going to say without any texture because there are like little little bits and pieces, but they're they're >> And like you mentioned, you boiled it already. It's probably nice and soft and and Yeah.

[01:01:03]>> Well, that sounds kind of delicious. I might have to >> And I've I've also been making tomato miso in the summertime when I have a lot of tomato.

[01:01:09]>> Tell me talk to me about that process a little bit.

[01:01:12]>> So, I basically like make tomato sauce.

[01:01:14]Like I'll I'll I'll remove the skins.

[01:01:17]I'll cook them down a little bit with some onion um uh and garlic and um and then once I have a a fairly thick paste, then I'll just mix that with um cooji and salt. Um and I do that as a shortterm ferment about like six weeks of fermentation.

[01:01:36]>> Well, I bet you the residual tamari that comes off of there is probably quite delicious.

[01:01:41]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh, I might have to have to try that this summer.

[01:01:46]Um, so you know, it turns out that that the, you know, the Japanese process for making miso, which, you know, is typically done with soybeans or other kinds of beans, is actually a very versatile process. Um, um, that you can do with all all kinds.

[01:02:02]>> Yeah. I made it, you know, with corn.

[01:02:04]People make you Yeah, you can make it with with all kinds of stuff. You're right about that, is it?

[01:02:08]>> Yeah. Yeah. I I've also been doing a a three sisters fermentation where I grow cooji on the corn. Um um and then I cook some beans and then I mix in some um some cooked squash and I make like a paste of beans and squash and the corn squash.

[01:02:27]>> Um >> Yeah. Yeah. That or something.

[01:02:29]>> Totally.

[01:02:30]>> Yeah.

[01:02:31]>> Oh man, I want to You've inspired me to get back on the on the miso horse. I've taken a break for a while because it but it is it's so fun and it's so it's so easy to use in the culinary world. like it's such a little secret weapon for anything.

[01:02:48]>> I mean, peop people are aware, you know, most Western people are primarily aware of miso as miso soup that you get served like, you know, with with sushi or at a Japanese restaurant. And I mean, miso soup is wonderful and and it's fun to make miso soup out of these different kinds of misos, but you know, miso has so many amazing applications in in marinades, uh, as a seasoning in dressings and sauces.

[01:03:17]Um, you know, it's as an ice cream ingredient and in cookies and cakes and, you know, sweet things. Um, I mean it's really really um, you know, so versatile. And I mean for me one of the fun things about, you know, doing all of these different fermentations is the way that it expands your culinary pallet.

[01:03:40]So, you know, I just feel like I have so many, you know, so many different things to to work with um, you know, in terms of like building flavor in um, in dishes that I'm that I'm preparing.

[01:03:53]>> Man, it's the best. And you know, every time I read your books or talk to you, I always get reminded and inspired again how much I do love fermenting foods and just having that, you know, just whether it's a kraut that a mixed, you know, a mixed garden kind of goulash of a kraut that you eat with every meal, which I love doing. Um, or just like, you know, getting inspired again to get back into miso making and uh and sharing. And I got a couple kids and and you know, just being able to get them involved and it's such a fun project, you know. I I found kids are very receptive to it as well.

[01:04:26]It's very hands-on. It's very uh science projecty type of experiment.

[01:04:31]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean sometimes when I've like made when I've made like kraut with groups of kids, like they're really impatient. They're like, "Is it ready?

[01:04:39]Can we try it yet?" You know, that crowd we made a couple days ago, is it ready?

[01:04:43]Um so I mean it's just great. I mean I but I but I feel like it's great. It's great to like, you know, once kids have had like their hands in it and that tactile connection, then they're invested in it. Then they, you know, then they're just like excited to try it. Um, and um, you know, you don't have to wait let you don't have to make them wait for a long time. Like, you know, you can start enjoying it after, you know, four or five days and the flavor will certainly continue to develop long after. That's what I love too about like whether you're making it because I love kind of a a young kimchi, but then I do love, you know, you make a big batch and that that first little like slightly ever still kind of crispy active ferment. I love that stage, but then I love it when it matures a little and gets a little a little softer and a little more deep and a little more a little more Yep.

[01:05:32]>> This is a kimchi that I made about two weeks ago um with um green shallots.

[01:05:38]It's it's whole whole shallots that I harvested uh uh uh from my garden.

[01:05:45]>> Uh so now it's about two and a half weeks old, but now it's really Oh, it's so good. Right.

[01:05:50]>> You know what I've really I do every year is do you guys get ramps down by you? Yep.

[01:05:54]>> Is it?

[01:05:55]>> Yeah, for sure. Oh, ramps crowd is amazing. best. I do a ramp, cucumber, a little bit of oregano from the garden, and it's just like something it's it's every year I look forward to making it because it's just so good, and they're so eager to ferment.

[01:06:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, actually uh um a year or two ago I I did a presentation at a community college in Nashville uh that has a culinary program and one of the students at the end gave me this compound butter >> made with fermented ramps >> and special.

[01:06:31]>> That was so so good. And it was a very sad day in our kitchen when we ate the last >> toasted up bread. Woo.

[01:06:42]Oh, I must be hungry because everything is sounding really good right now.

[01:06:46]>> Um, well, Sander, man, if I ever find myself down there, I'd love to get together uh and hang out and an open door up here if you're ever on your travels up to lovely New England, maybe c, you know, catching your college uh anniversary or something, you know, swing on through. We're right off 95.

[01:07:03]>> Okay. Well, I'm actually gonna I'm gonna be teaching at Johnson and Wales in Providence uh in November. Oh, man. It could it could happen.

[01:07:11]>> Yeah. If you're feeling up to it, swing on by. I'd love to uh we could do anything. We do some gardening. We can go fishing. We can go foraging. Hey, before you go, there was just a couple little questions I I forgot to ask, if you don't mind. Do you have a favorite variety of tomato at the moment? I I hate favorites, but is there just one that you're really excited for?

[01:07:29]>> I mean, I'm excited for tomatoes. I'm I'm excited for fresh tomatoes. I mean, I you know, I have like I don't know, seven different varieties in my uh in my garden right now and and like four of them have the word stripe in them. Um so, you know, I like I I mean I love I love something with a variegated color and [snorts] a beautiful pattern, but but really in a in a tomato mostly what I just love is like just like a vine deep rich flavor flavor. I almost I'm such a tomato junkie and I only want them two and a half months out of the year. I I like being excited for them. Um is almost the smell of the leaves. It's just such a it's like catnip for me. It [ __ ] me up a little, you know?

[01:08:15]>> I mean I do I use the leaves in cooking.

[01:08:17]I like I always put a couple of tomato leaves in like any any >> like a bay leaf type of application. Oh, I like that. Yeah.

[01:08:23]>> Um, do you have a favorite, Again, me with the freaking favorites style of pickle? Are you a half sour? Are you a full sour?

[01:08:30]>> Oh, I'm sour. I'm a sour guy. I'm a sour guy. I mean, I've never met a pickle I didn't like. So, I mean, I'm happy to eat a half sour, a quarter sour, a bread and butter pickle, any kind of pickle, but like a sour pickle is what I crave.

[01:08:45]>> Are you a coffee drinker?

[01:08:46]>> I am a coffee drinker.

[01:08:48]>> How do you prepare your morning cup?

[01:08:51]Is >> that a little road runner?

[01:08:54]Yeah. Yeah. Heck yeah. That's a road runner. Exactly. So, this is my this is my literal uh uh favorite cup, but I I usually use a um a French press.

[01:09:02]>> I know. Are you a dairy or a little little maple syrup or what are you doing? Black.

[01:09:07]>> No. No. No sweetener. But I do do dairy.

[01:09:09]I I I I love uh I love half and half or whole milk or >> um you know, some some kind of cream.

[01:09:16]I'm always if I'm ordering a coffee, it's cream, no sugar.

[01:09:19]>> That half and half. Superior. I'm a half and half guy. superior coffee product.

[01:09:23]Last question for you, Sander, and thank you again for your time. All right, the show's up, the gigs up. Uh, last meal.

[01:09:29]What are we What is Sander getting if we're going to, you know, uh, we're going to kill you tomorrow?

[01:09:34]>> I mean, it's all depends on all depends on what season it is and what's fresh.

[01:09:38]We're going to die tomorrow.

[01:09:39]>> I'll tell you in the summer, like I love pesto. Actually, I I the basil's not ready yet, but we just have an outrageous vet of parsley, and we've been eating parsley pesto, which I which I love. Earlier in the season, we were having chick uh um uh chickweed pesto, but um you know, we have a little saying in our house, pesto is the pesto. Um so, um um I do love pesto. Um I don't know, favorites are really hard for me because like I love food. That's how I got interested in this. like I I love food and of course part of what we love about food is how varied it is, >> but it might be pesto. Something pestoy is going to be involved. All right, good answer. And thank you for playing along.

[01:10:22]Um and uh again, thanks for chatting, man.

[01:10:24]>> So great to see you, Brad.

[01:10:29]>> This episode was produced by Brad Leone and Carolyn Gagnum in partnership with Studio 71. It was edited by Kate Brunaut with music by