Cognitive dissonance is the psychological discomfort experienced when a person holds two opposing beliefs or beliefs conflict with their actions, leading to stress, guilt, or anxiety that motivates individuals to rationalize their behavior or adjust their beliefs to reduce the tension. In religious communities like Mormonism, this manifests when members must reconcile conflicting teachings, such as church doctrines about health (e.g., Word of Wisdom restrictions on caffeine) versus medical advice, or when church policies change over time (e.g., LGBTQ+ inclusion policies), creating internal conflict that members must navigate through faith, rationalization, or questioning.
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Cognitive Dissonance in the Mormon Universe
Added:Hello everyone. Welcome to the Post Mormon Project. I'm your host Randy C.
Watts along with my co-host Jane Judson.
And we are in the virtual living room of Tim Wrathbone. Tim Wrath as he's known today, I guess. Um anyway, we have a subject that Tim has picked out for tonight. Uh Tim, you want to introduce your subject?
Can you hear me? [clears throat] >> Can you hear me?
[laughter] >> Wait, wait.
>> Let me do hand.
>> This is this way.
>> So Tim is giving us an example of cognitive dissonance where he's doing a show and at the same time he's not doing a show.
>> He's kind of whispering. I'm not sure why he's whispering, but >> um I'll show you the show shirt I wore today. I gave up eternal life for coffee.
>> Yeah. Can't [clears throat] be >> run one of your clips, Randy.
>> Okay, let's run a clip.
[laughter] What kind of clip?
Cognitive dissonance clips. Here's kind of a cognitive dissonance thing.
>> The Lord does not need your money.
[laughter] >> Me going this way.
>> Um, have you heard recently that um, >> I can hear you?
>> Oh, any Okay. Okay. Now you can hear us.
>> Okay. Now you can hear us.
>> Hang on. Hang on. Let me get out of this one.
>> Cognitive business.
>> Oh god.
>> Randy, I did the one that uh Tim, can you hear us now?
>> I can hear you now.
>> Okay.
Excellent.
>> That was weird. We're having trouble with the internet.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Today it's been going on and off.
>> Here's I'm weirded out. I just I'm using cell phone data. I just shut off the internet on both phones. And this one kicked me out. And then this one.
>> Okay, let me run another cognitive uh dissonance clip.
>> If a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.
>> Huh.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, that's a good one.
>> That's a very good one. Um, yeah. I think I'd maybe like to play something.
>> She claimed that the Lord will not keep me out of heaven for a little cup of coffee.
But because of that little cup of coffee, she could not qualify for a temple recommend.
And neither could those of her children who drank coffee with her.
[laughter] cracks me up every time.
>> Yes, >> my glasses are fogged up now that uh that [laughter] emotional experience.
>> Oh my Oh my [laughter] Oh my Oh my >> Well, Tim, you're gonna We were asking you if maybe you would introduce the subject tonight, what we're going to talk about, and why you chose that.
>> Why I chose it.
or if it or if you don't want to talk about it, I get it.
>> No, it's okay.
>> Yeah. So, tell us what the subject is, Tim.
>> Cognitive dissonance.
>> Okay. Tell us what if somebody doesn't if it's the first time somebody has heard that word, what does it mean?
>> It it is a difficult thing.
Let me see. Let me pull up the definition. two opposing thoughts.
>> Two opposing thoughts are in your brain at the same time.
>> For instance, let's say that your doctor, you visit your doctor and your doctor says, "You know what? I think you might have reduced headaches if you take take in some caffeine. So, try to drink a a diet coke every day or even a cup of coffee every day to get that caffeine to relieve your headaches. You've got the doctor telling you to drink a cup of coffee a day, but you've got the religious leader telling you >> society president, >> the Relief Society president. Sure.
>> That you >> telling if you drink that coffee, you're going to go to hell. But you know what's better? Hell or a migraine headache? Or I'll never forget on an episode of House where this guy came in and he was farting and House prescribed him to smoke cigarettes one a day to stop farting. And that's an actual prescription.
>> I looked it up. Well, everything on that show was real. I mean, everything on that show was real because David Sh was a doctor and he checked everything out, you know, and I blew blew me away. So, now that can't be real. and looked it up and it's real.
>> I thought you were going to say that he advised him to start smoking so it would cover the smell of the gas that he's passing. [laughter] >> Maybe.
>> Oh, cognitive dissonance is the psychological discomfort you feel when your actions, attitudes, or beliefs clash.
Because our minds naturally crave harmony, this mental friction causes stress, guilt, or anxiety. To relieve the tension, we often subconsciously rationalize our behavior or adjust our belief to match our actions.
So that's what cognitive dissonance is. And I'd say that most Mormons live in cognitive dissonance.
>> I think herism They have to because the church differs so much from what the outside world says and the church doesn't want to give an inch or change at all.
>> Change a thing. No, >> not a thing.
>> Not a thing.
>> And that's what this whole show is about. So people in the audience start thinking about the cognitive dissonance that you experienced as a Mormon so that uh we can add yours to the body of knowledge that we present here tonight.
Right.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm just going to change locations really quick because >> Are you going to your living room? I was I'm going to go to the living room because I was advised that this background is not doing a good job.
So, uh, while we're visiting, I'm just, you know, switching up a little bit. But, yeah, feel free to come into my living room.
>> Okay.
>> Okay.
So, one Have you ever experienced cognitive dissonance?
[snorts] >> Who are you asking? Tim >> Trevor.
So, a big one is the race in the priesthood ban.
>> That's a really big one. Um because you you have to right now we have to um you know accept all people and yet the scriptures say uh most people >> right [laughter] >> yeah there's a few groups that they exclude >> mark of darkness so that >> they're not um attractive to the whites in Book of Mormon, >> right?
Yeah. So, the white and delightsome people.
>> Okay.
How about this? The Earth is 6,000 years old, but science tells us it's millions [laughter] of years old.
>> Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Pretty brings up. Um there are people that have um spectrum of feelings about their gender and yet there's a from on high in Salt Lake says nope there's only two even though we know scientifically Tim that there are people born with all kinds of mixed um sex and people experience different gender expressions because of different hormones that go over our bodies as we're um >> experiencing things >> and then we have experiential things >> there uh there's a great deal of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the religious field also when it comes to the political field >> oh >> I think there's actually just as much cognitive dissonance there I think you came up with an example of that Jean in our last show we did that uh the president whoever that may be the name that shall not spoken.
>> Yeah. Um >> so there a lot of people think the current president of the United States is wonderful and is doing a great job and yet the price of gas is higher. The price of lots of groceries is higher.
there's, you know, unease across the world and um there he said that he would be the peace uh leader and he wanted a Nobel Peace Prize so badly and didn't get it. So he had a soccer club president give him a peace prize and um >> and took old gals real >> took somebody else's prize, right? And so >> yeah, >> all these things um people think it's a good he's doing a good job. So if that's a good job uh but >> and God God put him there because it says in the Bible that the Lord chooses the leaders, right?
>> Well, from my experience, God has never was a good economist.
[laughter] >> So we all grew up in a secular world.
Well, those of us who grew up in a public school system grew up with a lot of cognitive dissonance in science, mostly in science, >> right?
[laughter] >> The age of the earth, right? The dinosaurs, you know, all this stuff.
>> [laughter] >> And I the whole time Tim I was thinking you are so wrong. You don't know what you're talking about. You know, >> man, was I so wrong that saying she was so wrong or he was so wrong.
>> Well, I'll never forget in my junior high science class, they had a rock that they thought was a dinosaur turd.
[laughter] That's what my teacher used for.
>> There are so many dinosaur turtles around here.
>> Did it smell like dinosaur poop?
>> It didn't smell like anything. It was a rock turd.
>> But she passed it around one day and then she told us what it was.
I forget. [laughter] >> But it was just a rock. It was just really It probably really was dino dropping, >> but it just Yeah, >> fossilized.
>> Yeah, I thought you said turtles and you said turds. So my >> No, no, I meant turd. I meant stroke sh.
[laughter] >> I thought you were attempting a joke, Jane, when you said turtles [laughter] and sore turtles.
>> So anyway, a snapping turtle.
>> Tim, we have the whole program to get to all the things that you want to.
But since this is in your living room, let's say hi to Britty and hi to Dave.
>> Hi. Hi, Britty. Hi, Dave.
>> Hey, Britney.
>> Hey, Dave. Can you hear me?
>> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> You can hear me now, too. I don't know what's going >> Yeah, we can. [laughter] >> It was weird. Uh, anyway, >> speaking of fossilized dinosaur poop, I I heard that um Joseph Smith's chocolate sear stone could have been like a dinosaur gallbladder or something that had >> probably dinosaur poop. They think it was dinosa >> could have been poop.
>> Could have been >> I think it's a load of poop. [laughter] >> Might have been an ancient taper.
>> A big truckload of poop.
It would be a perfect thing if it was dinosaur [ __ ] >> An ancient >> led to Mormonism.
Go ahead.
>> Had a point. Maybe it's a taper turd.
>> Say Dave. Dave say >> what?
>> What were you saying?
>> Oh, tapier.
>> Tapier.
>> Tapira.
>> Tapier.
>> Tomato. Tomato.
Taper. Tapier.
Um, >> Tapier is classy.
>> Riddy, can you give us an example of cognitive dissonance in your life?
>> Either current or past.
>> Well, I had to look up the definition. A psychological discomfort. a lot of >> you know what it's it's like when someone tells you that um uh coffee I I just used this but coffee you need a cup of coffee every morning to stimulate your heart and to keep your system going properly the doctor tells you that but yet your prophet tells you don't drink a cup of coffee so now you're a little conflicted that is cognitive dissonance >> I have I got one for you. I would say like some of the big moments in my time as being a Mormon, like when I really started to question things, one of them was the November 2015 policy, which like banned children of gay parents from being able to be baptized and go on missions. And I was a really believing Mormon then. And I just remember thinking, this is not right. like how why would that that's not okay? And you know I had to take a few months of fasting and prayer and scripture study to try to figure out why this such a wrong thing is happening.
Um and I just came to the decision that it must be like a temporary which it was. So maybe I'm a psychic.
Who knows? Maybe I'm a prophet. I don't know. [laughter] >> You could be a prophet. I would vote you in if you run.
>> I'm trying to I am trying to start a cult. I'm building a temple on Sims 4 right now just for the fun of it. So >> Dave Dave had some cognitive dissonance when he joined the church because he was told if he joins the church, if he was a good boy, if he prays, [snorts] he will benefit. He will receive blessings.
And what did you receive, Dave?
>> I mean, I did in the beginning. That wasn't the cognitive dissonance. Like that's why I stayed in for a few years was because I was getting the blessings and the business connections and the all of that. I even had people in the church promoting my like Minecraft streaming.
So that was cool. Um no, like the biggest cognitive dissonance was that I was told I could keep my cultural traditions from like Hinduism because you I've heard missionaries say that.
You'll see people say that online. have people all around the world, you know, they join the church, but they could still keep their customs.
No, you don't. You can't.
>> Absolutely not.
>> It came from a a cult of naturalism and they said, "Come join the church. You can keep everything that you hold pure right now and come to church." You come to church naked.
That would cause other people some cognitive dissonance, I think.
>> Or at least wearing the emperor's clothes.
>> Yes, >> that's what I would say.
>> Indeed, indeed. Indeed, indeed.
>> Uh yeah, cognitive dissonance is really what I like to think of as a compass for us. You know, we we we run into it all the time and then we have to make the decision. Cognitive dissonance always requires a decision one way or the other.
Or at least I can't think of an example where a decision isn't needed.
If you run into cognitive dissonance personally, you'd better figure out what's cog and what's knittive and what to believe in.
Thanks Tim for that little courtesy laugh. You're welcome.
>> I'm processing.
>> We've all been We've all been there.
Come on. We've all been there.
>> My brain just broke. [snorts] >> Uh >> oh.
>> Just broke >> just now.
>> Yeah. Yes. [laughter] >> What the heck has been wrong with you for the last couple of years, Dave?
>> I met you [laughter] That's >> I love banter.
>> That's very hurtful. I I don't know. I'm >> My feelings are pretty damaged. Dave, >> are would you say you're experiencing psychological discomfort?
>> Some kind of cognitive crap. I don't know.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> You need to put it on the shelf.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just put it put it on under the shelf after you identify it as an unhealthy habit, moral conflict, or worse place or or workplace ethical failure, according to the internet.
>> Workplace ethical failure. Oh, >> I I I had to Google what cognitive dissonance meant before the show, too, because I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] I haven't I haven't I haven't heard that term in a while."
>> Like, I know the word show.
>> Yeah. It's not a word that anybody who is in the mainstream probably has even ever heard or thought about. But once you become a member of the EXMO community, suddenly you start hearing cognitive dissonance and uh it's like the shelf breaking. I didn't know what that meant until I >> The first place I ran across it was in Mike Quinn's post manifesto polygamy article. That's the first place I ran across it in print. And I remember asking Mike, what does this mean? And he told me and I went, wait a minute, I think I'm having that to happen to me.
>> I think you know a lot of people would would use the term conflicted thoughts or conflicted teaching >> because they're one half of their brain is telling them one thing and yet the other half of their brain is learning an opposite thing or completely different thing. And we have to use it all the time, by the way, with our LDS prophets.
And when I say our, I mean their LDS prophets.
Um, >> no, they're our prophets. They're the world's prophets.
>> Well, sure. Well, [laughter] I mean, uh, listen, >> they're everyone's They're everyone's prophets whether you believe it or not.
>> Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. It's like I watched those guys who talked about the shooting, the guy with the gun at Orin yesterday, and I'm watching these two guys talk and I could just see their cognitive dissonance in their faces. It was like, uh, how do we deal with this? Oh, well, I'm not going to obey what the church says. I'm going to I I'm open carry and from now on, I'm going to carry my gun with me in case it happens again. And I'm going, yeah, right.
And you could just there's a perfect example of cognitive dissonance.
>> While he's saying it, it's like I'm going to disobey what the church tells me to do. I'm going like, oh, you're admitting there's a problem.
I wonder, Tim, how many people experience cognitive dissonance when the prophet is teaching them that there's a community of people on the moon?
And who with their scientific minds back then, >> what kind of cognitive dissonance must they have experienced?
>> Back then, people were ignorant. So, I'd give that >> Well, not all of them. There were really smart people back then.
>> Yeah. But the people Joseph was talking to were not scientists. They weren't trained in science. They were >> Well, so just real quick, >> Trevor has a good point here.
So like um the people who think that Joseph Smith can do no wrong that now believe that he didn't practice polygamy because they think that polygamy is wrong.
They are experiencing cognitive dissonance because >> and so they deny the history because it does it doesn't fit in their brain to think that Joseph Smith could have done something that they think is morally reprehensible.
>> Okay. I don't know what happened from 1990 or 2000. See, remember I've been out since 2001 and I paid very little attention to what was going on in the LDS sphere until about five or six years ago. Okay. So somewhere along the way when the church stopped teaching about Joseph and polygamy because it was well known in my generation and then this new generation comes along and they claim they weren't told about they didn't know about it and I'm going then who were you talking to because my grandfather told me it when I was 12 years old something like >> okay well younger than that even you know My family was polygamous. My grandfather, my mother's mother come from polygamous union >> and how these people >> can't comprehend it. It just blew me away. Just like >> there it's a mental illness. I see them as mentally ill right now.
That's what I see.
>> Yeah.
Is this green cheese theory? Um, mean like the moon is made out of cheese.
>> Who's in the Is that Dave?
>> It's Kinder Kim.
>> No, because Dave >> Britty, are there people talking in the background?
>> Yeah.
>> Not in my background.
>> Dave is muted.
>> Dave, >> I don't have any people talking.
>> I can hear it also.
>> Yeah. Nobody's >> It's not mine >> here.
>> No one's doing dishes in my house.
What about Tim? Is anybody in your room talking?
>> I have No, there's just the cats.
>> Weird.
>> Just uh want to know how many there are?
At least five.
>> And so you haven't trained them to talk yet?
>> No, I haven't trained them to talk yet.
>> So that was weird. It was It was like some things were going on >> and uh >> Yeah.
Diamond Dave is muted and >> Tim's gone. Dave's back.
>> Now Diamond Dave's back, >> but I hear it again.
>> Yeah, I just got off the phone with a Mongolian therapist my wife wants me to try. So, we're going to see how that goes.
>> Oh, >> I didn't pay my counselor and boy is my therapist.
I uh I can't say enough good about therapists and the work they do >> because >> I've had really bad experiences in America with therapists. So that's why I'm uh >> reticent.
>> I am reticent and hesitant. So that that's why I bounced because I was actually supposed to call her at 10. Um, but yeah, so I was just like trying to get a greater of understanding of like what to expect.
>> Seymour Johnson, you are not connected.
>> I don't think you want to connect them.
>> Yeah, Seymour Johnson could be an adult film star.
>> I don't I don't want to see that, Johnson.
>> I get it. I get it. I see what you did there. So, >> Seymour Johnson, >> I didn't do it, but Seymour did it. But we'll see what happens. Where's Seymour?
>> That's hilarious.
>> You know, you can put any name you want in here. So, I think somebody in the chat is that same person.
>> Mike Hunt. Do we have Mike Hunt in the crowd?
>> I don't see it.
[laughter] >> Well, >> my cat I >> The cats are talking.
No, [clears throat] they're sleeping.
>> This is a good one. CS CMC.
[laughter] >> I hope so. I I would love to have them over to smoke a cigar with him or something.
>> Let's [laughter] do a commercial for Tim right now. If the SCMC is watching, please tell the leaders of the church that the most dangerous person right now is Randy C. Watts. And if you don't ex exc ex excommunicate them [clears throat] soon the whole foundations of the church will crumble >> if you do not heed the words in this room tonight [laughter] by Jean Judson.
>> The wrath of God will fall upon you.
>> You'll be in Tim's power.
>> Randy Yeah. You'll be in my power.
>> You'll be in >> Tim's power. in my power.
>> I think I think the SCMC does smoke cigars. Um Haley said they don't. I think they do because I literally uh when I was living at Provo smoked a cigarette like with uh we were at like a YSA like I forget what it's called like the family home evening, right? Well, the steak president was there and he was smoking with me and we're just sitting around a bonfire. We're just smoking and like just talking with with other people.
>> What in the hell are you saying, Diamond? That your state president and you smoked a cigarette together?
>> Wasn't my stake president because I mid singles. It was a stake president.
>> Smoking a cigar.
>> Cigarettes.
>> Cigarette.
>> Cigars are kind of kind of uh >> they're fancy. So, yeah, I could see the cigarettes. I mean, and if you think about it too, like it makes sense because like you look at anywhere in the world, right? Just pick a part where like alcohol is banned, you'll still see wealthy people or politicians with a brandy smoking a cigar in like Dubai and Saudi Arabia and like other like Middle Eastern countries. You will see that rules for me or no rules for thee but not for me, >> right? Which is also dissonance >> on the part about smoking. So my dad in the 50s and 60s, if you looked up Jack Mormon, you'd probably see his picture.
So he believed the church was true, but he was way better at sinning. And so he thought he had no chance of going to heaven, so he might as well smoke and drink because he just couldn't help it, right? So but he tried still. So he went to go see a a stake president and the stake president told him, you know, I have uh desires too like that, but may because maybe the guy used to be a non-member or or maybe he was an active or something like that, but he said, "You know what I do is whenever I feel like smoking or drinking, I go to the ice cream parlor and I have an ice cream." And my dad had cognitive dissonance at the time because the steak president was like 350 pounds.
[laughter] He was like, "How can that be healthier?"
And at the time he might have been 180 or something like that, right?
>> Swig.
>> You look at all these people who won't drink coffee, but holy [ __ ] I've I've had Swig and I mean I'll drink a couple two liters of soda in a day and like I had Swig and like I felt the sugar grind on my teeth.
>> Like have you guys had swig? Like >> no. And I do not ever desire to partake of what?
>> So here's the thing. I I'm going to say this and people could take it how they want, but I I I'm like 14 now. It's 14 years clean of heroin.
That's relatable. That's related because after having like one of the 32 ounce swig drinks, I was drinking it like a normal so soda. I [ __ ] you not. I don't care if you believe this or not. That sugar crash and the withdrawal symptoms from all that sugar was very similar to my heroin withdrawal.
>> Oh, sure. Sure.
>> It was bad. Like I I literally like I drank it playing video games. It was a weekend. got it with my roommate. I woke up and like my skin's itching. I'm hot.
I'm sweaty. I want to fight somebody.
Like, and I had no idea what was going on. My heart is racing. Like, it was bad, dude.
>> Yeah, withdrawal can be scary. Um, I'm on a I'm on a mood stabilizer.
>> Who is it? and and I tried quitting one time and I started pulling my hair out and I was going nuts. I didn't want to be in my body. You know, they talk about thoughts of offing yourself >> when you're on these particular drugs. I I never paid attention to that. But when I tried going cold turkey and just quitting, >> I was a basket case and I had to go back on them because I found out that it's the same uh intensity as a heroin withdrawal, a heroin withdrawal. And it was it was scary. Uh my son came over and took my gun and uh you know because I was talking to my sister and she thought I sounded like I might be you know have plans to live myself. But I didn't. But I mean, I I didn't want to be alive.
>> Mhm.
>> While I was going through that, but you know, >> I've had Yeah, I've experienced stuff like that. I get what you're saying.
It's nice that you had family that was right there and willing to like be there for you. That's good.
>> Yeah, >> indeed.
>> Yeah, you got to be careful going cold turkey off those things.
>> Well, and there's another example, Britty, of cognitive dissonance. uh you know the doctor says take this much morphine and this much uh hydrocodone uh and I'm like at the same time and he says oh you're going to need it because I had a real severe surgery on my elbow I mean on my shoulder >> and he was right it hurt but I'm thinking he's telling me to take all these painkillers I didn't because I knew that you get addicted to them physically you may not get mentally addicted to Um, but physically you need to keep taking them or you start going nuts.
>> See, >> to me that was totally cognitive dissonance. The doctor's saying this, but I know this from experience.
>> I'm I'm not addicted to soda. I skip the middleman and just every couple hours I go to the sugar bin and take a couple of [laughter] >> straight to the source >> and then I drink some water >> and then you don't have the artificial dyes. Like that's a really good idea. We should all switch to sugar.
>> Britty, it's not a good idea. He needs to use sugar cubes because they're so much more convenient.
>> How fancy.
>> It's It's like sugar pills, you know?
You just pop them in and nothing on your hands.
>> You could get the little sugar cube like uh what? Not tweezers. What am I thinking of pincher things? And then you could get like little >> tongs. Little tongs.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like a whole little setup. I love it. to Ry's point actually like so >> when I joined the when I joined like the Mormon church >> um and even like after I left like I've had doctors tell me because I've struggled with like addiction right one of the things is smoking right doctors told me to get these nicotine pouches right and I'm weaning off of those and >> what are they what are they called Jean >> Zins >> no these are each well they're zins Yeah. I mean, this is EGP. It's a different brand, but same thing, >> right?
>> I love Zins, by the way. I love Zen.
>> Yeah.
>> So, um, yeah. So, doctors told me to use nicotine pouches, >> but what they don't tell you is you get on nicotine pouches and it's actually like technically it's healthier for you because it's just a pouch with nicotine, but the nicotine is directly like on your gum, right? So, it doesn't like go through your whole body. it like goes it hit hard. So, it's actually harder to quit than cigarettes. So, they you know, by helping me quit cigarettes, it got me hooked on these. And now I just wish I stuck with smoking because the withdrawal symptoms are worse on these than cigarettes are.
You know, I have a quick story about that, Diamond Dave. I went fishing with my son uh this past weekend and uh we're out in the water and he pulls out some Zens and anyway I recognized them because I have a little thing of them. I just learned about him. So instead of smoking a cigar, I can take one of those and get a way better uh buzz. Anyway, um my son was in Germany and he had run out of sins and uh he was there on a business trip here a few months ago.
He popped into a store, a German store.
He says they carry everything >> and he asked if they had them and they said yeah and they gave them to him and she says very strong. And my son's like yeah I can handle that. And so, um, he put one in his mouth on the way out of the store and passed out in the street right there.
>> They were 300s.
>> 300s, which can't they can't even sell in the United States. It's >> 300. Wait, 300 milligrams of nicotine.
>> Yeah, my son does 15s and um, >> yeah, I do 14.
>> That about knocked me on my butt. But no, theirs were 300 mg. He put it in his mouth. And this is a Navy Seal, you know, he's he doesn't pass out for anything and he went down in the street, missed her flight and everything.
>> My my wife my wife actually tried us in and like she almost fainted and like she was like she was like having a hard time and like the interesting thing was cuz like she's never done any type of nicotine like whatsoever.
Uh, so like she tried a three mgram one, right? You know, and for people who don't know, like the nicotine pouches are not like dry. When you buy them, they're all like wet with the nicotine on them as well. And you put them on, it's it's it's a hit, right? She put the like the 3 milligram or five milligram as the lowest one and she almost went down. And I'm like, >> yeah. And she's Yeah. And that's Yeah.
Yeah, but I mean like she we're like working on me getting off of these so we're rationing them out kind of a thing. But these are 14 milligrams and I mean I could go through a can a day easy.
>> Well, send them to me and I'll just kind of hang on to them for you Dave and then when you're ready I'll send them back.
No, [laughter] no. I have to buy more to continue the rationing.
>> After I have a >> Well, anyway, so that's my cognitive dissonance with Zens is that or I mean with pain meds is that yeah, they're great at the time, but you know, even though the doctor tells you to take them, you're going to pay. So, it's either endure pain or endure withdrawal, but one or the other's going to happen.
And morphine, I think I think I saw Kim mention uh morphine. It is it is freaking I saw more hallucinations while I was on morphine after this surgery. I kept seeing people around my house. Uh across the street were a bunch of construction workers all dancing and uh I saw a guy looking in our windows through our surveillance cameras. And I keep telling my uh relationship at the time, you know what I see? And she looks out and she's like, "There's no one there." And I'm like, "How can there not be? I'm watching them. It's just the weirdest thing in the world." So I try to stay off of the pain meds as much as possible.
>> Wow.
Sounds like you have a bad reaction >> to morphine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could chew hydrocodone like it's gum, >> but I don't because then, you know, >> you get too addicted.
>> So, I just take, you know, eedrin or something like that.
>> Pro tip real quick. Pro tip. if you're like having pain, uh, if you take one ibuprofen with one Advil, it works really well together, >> right? And you're still within the dosage. And the reason is is because ibuprofen and um, like >> Well, no. So yeah, but it's like ibuprofen and acetaminophen. They target different pain areas and they function different, but they complement each other, right? Because I had four uh I had all four wisdom teeth removed in one shot and I refused. They want to get hydrocodone and codin and I'm like, dude, I used to be an addict. I'm not taking that. Give me something else. And so they gave me a prescription for like stronger ibuprofen that you can't buy in the store and stronger Advil and told they told me to take one at a time like that and I did that. Felt amazing.
>> I don't think that's crash.
>> Are are you do is that what you think Advil is ibuprofen? So >> no one else. Do you mean Tylenol or acetaminophen?
>> Tylenol. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Tylenol. So you mix it's it's one acetaminophen and one like whatever ibuprofen is technically called.
>> Yeah. That's what's in the eedrin except without the caffeine, right?
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, you know, uh medicine can certainly be a subject of cognitive dissonance and uh and it has been for me many times. healthc care in general. You know, my dad used to say that he had to have Dr. Pepper to keep his stomach from being upset, but Dr. Pepper was a no no, of course, growing up in the church.
But, you know, he swayed with the medical side instead of the church side. I think that was just his excuse to drink Dr. Pepper. There's that thing about caffeine.
>> About caffeine.
Vegan gently and quotable did a thing yesterday about Monster drinks coming to BYU.
>> Yeah. They're they're sponsoring the Big 12. So when I was growing up, I specifically remember them saying in priesthood meeting, no cola drinks, >> right?
>> My grand my grandfather was a patriarch and a bishop. They drank Pepsi.
>> We drank it sometimes. We had Coke in my house more than Pepsi.
So it wasn't a thing at the beginning of the 60s. All of a sudden in the middle of 60s through the 70s, it became a thing. and more and more progressing too. And now it's they're reversing everything that I learned in my childhood growing up. They're changing everything.
Every single thing they're changing.
They changing the endowment.
>> Changing church.
>> They got rid of the cool pantoimeings.
That's right.
Rather than do so and suffer my life to be taken. Yes, they're getting that [snorts] >> celestial cosplay.
>> I really hope they don't get rid of the baker's hats. I really hope they keep those >> and the and the pretty little baker's apron.
>> The apron.
>> I still have my apron.
>> We're talking about the word caffeine and the word of wisdom. So, I just want to share this. I think we saw it uh on Expositor, but let me play it for you here. This is so typical.
There's a couple of or a few LDS boys recording themselves and um >> they wanted to try an energy drink for the first time.
So, see what you think here.
>> Let's take a sip of an energy drink, guys.
>> Call my mom and see if it's okay.
I guess >> I just don't want to I just don't want to make like make her upset.
[clears throat] >> Hello.
>> It's okay. Hello.
>> Hey.
>> Hey.
>> How you doing?
>> Good. You?
>> Good. Um, I just [clears throat] had a question. I My friend gave me this Red Bull >> Red Bull Zero.
>> Red Bull Zero.
>> No sugar.
>> Can I Can I drink it or No.
That's garbage.
>> Oh, I'm not allowed to.
>> That is garbage.
>> Okay, >> I won't drink it then. I promise.
>> Just say no. Brandon, >> let's take a sip of >> She didn't say >> That's insane.
>> No, >> that's insane.
>> Is that real?
>> That's real.
>> Apparently, >> it could be staged, but it sounds like something that would really happen.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> That's what I'm thinking. It's like something that could happen, but that sounds staged.
>> That mom doesn't sound staged to me.
>> No, it sounds realistic.
>> Well, the whole moms can be cool.
>> Yeah, my mom was cool.
>> Yeah, moms can be cool. But I just I just wanted to emphasize what the church feels about energy drinks. If you go back or if you even Google energy drinks uh the LDS church, you're going to find all these articles that it's bad. It's bad. It's bad. But then Brigham Y Young University gets a million dollars from uh Monster uh and suddenly they're wearing Monster patches on their jerseys next year.
>> Not Not yet. It's not They haven't signed the deal yet, I don't think. I think it's just >> No, not yet. Yeah, they haven't signed it. You're great. They do have a Pop-Tarts logo on their jersey though.
So Pop-Tarts are okay.
>> Pop-Tarts are of the Lord.
>> Unless a Popart was a CGI. I don't know.
But >> it talks about Pop-Tarts in the Word of Wisdom, >> but it does not talk about beer.
>> We should have Pop-Tarts for sacrament, >> right? Cut them up. Heck yeah.
>> What do you got? What kind? Dry chocolate fudge I think would be good >> or cookie cookies and cream because the crust is chocolate. I feel like if you get just a crust piece you still got a good >> So pop-tarts for the bread and monster for the wine.
>> Right.
>> That's a way to start the week.
>> Right.
>> You know, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Well, I mean there's who's there's uh I think he's Strangite a Strangite Mormon but John Hajisk. He he actually he's been talking about that. Did you see his Facebook? He's like blasting caffeine.
>> He's saying how caffeine is like a dangerous mindaltering drug and people are debating it and I'm just like >> I mean by definition okay right? Yeah it does alter your brain chemistry just like eating food alters your brain chemistry.
>> Yes.
>> You know >> here here we are talking about drugs and Karl Mar said that >> religion was the opiate of the masses.
>> [laughter] >> But when you guys were talking about sugar earlier, I remember when I was a kid and I used to eat sugar cubes and stuff like that. And right now I apart I don't eat anything with sugar in it anymore. I try to use sugar as low as possible. I'll use honey before I use sugar.
>> That's right. Howie says beer is okay in the doctrine of covenants because that's what he is.
>> Is Jack Daniels in the doctrine and covenants >> make it only if it's from your own what brewery >> Joseph Smith was sure to exclude beer out of the word of wisdom by saying that barley drinks are okay.
>> That's right. I think you okay.
>> I found a workaround guys. I found a workaround.
>> Okay, what's the work?
>> And that is, you know how we're all allegedly one in Christ? Well, the brewery down the road is technically mine because we're all one in Christ.
So, yes, it does come from my own brewery.
>> Plus, I mean, you Jesus example, what did you do? He turned water into wine.
But remember, only Joseph Smith can turn wine into water.
There's a good example, Jean, of cognitive dissonance is the freaking sacrament.
>> Yeah.
>> What about those on the keto diet who know that they they that carbs are bad for them. They don't eat bread, >> but then you've got this kid passing it around to the congregation to take a piece of bread.
There's a little cognitive dissonance right there.
>> I'm glad you brought that up. for me like when I joined the church, right? It was I was told that, you know, the sacrament is a very spiritual thing and it should be a time of like, you know, reverence and closeness with God and reflecting on what God did. And then I saw two 18-year-old nerds stumble through the prayer, having to repeat it more than once because they couldn't do it right, and then awkwardly like walk around with the bread.
And for me that was definitely psychological discomfort.
>> Yeah. It's like is this um special ed day at the church >> and it's wonderre. It's not even like cool Catholic wafers. It's just like someone bought a bag of Wonderbread and they're like peeling it into pieces.
>> Yeah. The deacons or I mean the teachers who have been scratching their te test testicles all day then take this bread and when they squish it and break it up it turns kind of gray and it probably smells like like teacher crutch.
>> I'm not trying to be nasty. I'm just telling you I'm It is like what it is.
We used to wash our hands >> before we prepared.
>> Supposed to >> the teacher.
>> There was a place with a sink and then >> you washed your hands before you did anything with it. That's what you always did.
>> We didn't get that memo, Tim.
>> Spray. I feel like cognitive dissonance might also be something I've observed and Bri can correct me on this, but I feel like nursery for women because you know we've all heard that women are told that being a wife and a mother is sacred and it's joyful and it's wonderful and you'll love having children and then you get put in a nursery and the kids are screaming and half naked and everyone like the the nursery workers are like pulling their hair out because they don't have any support.
>> I tell you what, the first time they tried to call me to nursery, um, they didn't word it as like a call. It was more like, um, we're thinking of calling you to nursery. And I said, >> I don't think that's a good idea. I have really bad anxiety. Like, I didn't have really good mental health at the time.
And also, we were trying for more babies and we couldn't get pregnant. I didn't want to be in nursery with everybody's babies. And they were like, "Well, why don't you just try it for a day and let let us know what you think?" And so to me, it was such a spiritual experience that they didn't actually offer the call. So I didn't have to decline a call. It was more like, "Oh, like God must be speaking to these men for making sure they approached me that way." And yeah, I did cry within like two minutes of entering nursery and left.
Yeah, at my ward I heard cries and I couldn't tell if it was the babies or like the women working.
>> It's both because the children are on the tables. Why? Why are there three children on the tables? Oh my gosh, it's insane. And then like one one year everybody has babies and they all turn 18 months at the same time. And so suddenly you have 30 babies in there and two workers and like no. and no one's listening to you that you need another person called or nobody is taking up the calling. It's it's an insane experience especially when you're supposed to be very grateful and thankful for it.
>> Where in the church do you have 30 babies in a nursery?
>> Mine.
>> Really? Where was this?
>> I would say we definitely had 20 at least.
>> Wow.
>> That sounds like ours, but it's Provo.
So >> St. Charles St. Charles, Missouri, we had a year where I swear to God, everyone but me got pregnant. And then like I was like, what's in the water? Or what potent what potluck did I miss that everybody got pregnant? And then we also had people who would come in during the summer and do their summer sales or whatever, you know, and they would come in with their wa their wives are already pregnant.
>> Britney, I wish I would have known you.
>> General Potatoes.
>> Yeah. So yeah, it was a lot of pregnant women, a lot of baby showers, and I was just sobbing. I think I ended up starting to skip showers for a while because it was too much for me who my patriarchal blessing said I would have many children. I wanted every child I could possibly have and I couldn't get pregnant. So I must be doing wrong.
>> I wish like nursery but pure songs.
[laughter] >> Go ahead, Randy. Ryd, I wish I would have known because um I would have been happy to send you one of my sweaters because let me tell you, that's all it takes for a woman to get pregnant. If I hung my sweater next to my wife's, she'd end up pregnant. That's how fertile I seem to be. So, God, >> the minute I had as many kids as I thought I wanted, well, I can't do that, but I [laughter] >> at all.
>> I got I got neutered.
>> You took care of the problem. I see.
Okay. [laughter] Yes, ma'am.
>> So, Laura says, "People watch all of those kids for free." Not only that, you bring snacks. You pay for snacks and you bring >> Not only that, sometimes >> missionaries watch kids too. Like we had that at um our like where like the sister missionaries would help out at the wards. The sister missionaries who paid money to go on a mission paid to watch other people's kids.
>> It's fun.
>> Interesting. Yeah, >> I see that um Katie Ash commented and it was a story that I was thinking when I talked about uh special ed um not to be callous but in my one of my wards uh when I was young married the uh there was a kid up there who was um psychologically uh impaired or what is the word neural >> neur diver diver >> divergent Thank you.
>> He was autistic.
>> Okay.
>> And this poor kid, it took him eight times.
>> Eight times.
>> Wow.
>> Before before I can't remember if it was the bishop or one of his counselors finally went over and knelt with him and helped him through it. But holy smokes, you'd think that God would get it. You know, oh, they're blessing the sacrament. I I get what they're doing.
It's okay if he says a wrong word.
Somebody must have prayed for patience.
>> Must have because I was so embarrassed just for that kid. I was just so embarrassed for him.
>> I could never remember talking to the Lord after knocking three times what we're supposed to say. So I always had to have the helper help. as a health on the navl, marrow on the bones, strength on the loins, and in the same power in the priesthood >> be upon >> being me in my posterity through all generations of time and throughout all eternity.
>> Oh, very good.
>> Scared of you, Britney. Brandy.
>> Very good.
>> Went to the temple a lot and I've watched the video since then. So, >> yes, >> just for the heck of it.
>> Well, the cool thing is you don't have to do it. The helper will do it for you, it sounds like. right to help her.
>> What were you gonna say?
>> What were you gonna say?
>> Tim Tim uh sent Jean and I the actual transcripts >> for the temple ceremony.
>> So, you know, >> the most recent one.
>> Yes. 2019.
>> No.
>> Or is there a more recent one?
>> 1926.
>> I want to SEE THAT. OH, I'm trying to make a puppet show.
>> Okay. Well, um >> we might do a show on it. I I need your email >> after Sunstone >> so I can send you a link. Well, yeah, we'll talk about it at Sunstone. Yeah.
>> Well, I'm not in there, but I my my email is burdy the [email protected].
>> Oh, yeah. Next next week, Tim. Let's do Sunstone. That's our Tuesdays with Tim.
>> We'll practice.
>> What?
I need more definition.
>> So, we're going to talk about sunstone.
Okay.
>> And we're going to do our presentation.
We'll do some of the questions and we'll talk about what we're what we're doing.
>> It'll be like a commercial for Sunstone.
>> Give people a preview.
>> Give people a preview and um and we'll and it'll be practice for us.
>> Okay.
Good.
I've got a cat that will not >> So, I had cognitive dissonance when all almost all my blessings never worked.
>> Yeah.
[laughter] And I had some that worked.
>> It was good.
>> Is that your dog, Randy?
>> Wow, that was a big dog. [laughter] >> Whose dog was that?
>> That dog sound like it came from a Chihuahua. [laughter] >> You never know.
You never know.
>> Blessings. The blessings worked. They just didn't turn out the way that you wanted them to. That's >> isn't that what the church would tell you?
>> It's all learn.
>> You have to have the faith to not be healed.
>> You need to listen a little more to David.
I was gonna say David DVny.
>> I thought you were gonna say David Bowie. Honestly, [laughter] >> yeah. Bednar.
>> David Bednar.
>> David Bednar.
>> David Bednar. Yeah. Said that you had to have the faith to not be healed.
>> Yes. Actually 50 wish I was still going to church when he said that because it was like now you're talking my language.
>> Right.
>> I have the faith to not believe my blessings are going to work on you.
[laughter] >> Right. Right.
If if that okay, first of all, that would be completely unnecessary what Bedar said because if indeed the priesthood was the um power to act in God's name, why on earth why on earth would we need uh more than one blessing, right?
>> They come, they give the blessing, the the sick person gets up, and they're healed.
God's not going to say, "I'm gonna put a block on this one. I just want you to stay humble, so I'm going to let this one die."
And >> that's fits with um the the cognitive dis >> apostles can either speak as a as a prophet or a man. The prophet could either speak as a prophet or a man.
Well, no. If you don't know, then what good is it?
>> Correct. You know what?
>> Speaking to Ry's point, something that just uh I saw on like Mormon discussions and this is like so tragic and heartbreaking, right? Because you know, we all heard in Mormonism, you wear your garments, you you do the right things, and you have a nice happy life with your family.
the the family of the only survivor, that girl, they got washed away in the blood >> like or like even in like Nigeria where that major bus crash happened and like what was it like 38 people died including the driver.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Not that anyone talked about it.
>> Yeah. I mean I I honestly feel bad for that's got to be some major cognitive dissonance right there. I can't even like fathom. I can't think.
>> I'm sure they had a prayer.
>> Oh, Emily Smart, too. Yeah.
>> Yeah. She talked a lot about her stuff.
I watched her the recent documentary she did and um I think she was really well spoken in it and she's, you know, she talked I think a lot about the cognitive dissonance she that she had experiencing the things she was experiencing but having the only the knowledge she had was like of the gospel and like the church's view of virginity and like Yeah. And then having this guy tell you that he's the prophet. Like that's got to be so weird. So I can't even imagine.
>> Yeah.
>> I was Oh, I wanted to talk talk about something that's kind of on the same subject. I don't know if anyone saw this. I posted a video on my Tik Tok about it, but a man a a brother in some ward or stake, he posted some videos recently about how his local stake was recently decided to stop issuing sacrament in the foyer >> there. Yeah, I saw that.
>> No one can do that anymore. I I was like, okay. And you know people are confused and the you know like especially believers who know that that's not okay like just ban >> we had one sister we we had one sister in our ward she was a columnist her name was May man she was a Hollywood columnist she would always stand outside the if you're looking at the >> the chapel >> podium well no looking forward, she would always be on the left side, the right side anyway. And whenever cuz the there was a cry room in the Westwood Chapel. There's a cry room on that side of well my left, you know, chap. Yeah.
Anyway, I was going to say, >> so you opened the door and she would be standing there >> waiting for the sacrament. That's the only time we ever saw her at church was she would it was so funny. And one time I asked her, I said, "You only come for the sacrament." Well, she that's the most important thing to me that I get it every Sunday.
Okay.
[laughter] Just Yeah. So, but she won't be able to get it while she's gone now. But if you have somebody like that in your ward, how are they going to get it?
>> Yeah.
>> Right.
>> Well, you know, Megan Connor and I, Tim, uh, came up with a great idea for drive-thru sacrament. Yes.
>> Where you know, skip all the talks.
>> Drive through, they have little wafers.
They can give you a little cup of water >> and you can turn your radio on and it'll say the sacrament prayer.
>> Very hygienic, too.
>> Just Door Dash Wonderbread to your own house and do it yourself.
>> That's what they did in That's what they did in CO.
>> That's right. That's right. That's right.
Well, I wouldn't use bread. If I was at home, you can bet your butt I'd use either Pop-Tarts, like we talked about, Danish, even Captain Crunch. I'd make little Captain Crunch wafers.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Or even the thing with the right hand for the sacrament, >> right?
>> I mean, that didn't root in salmonic magic.
So, I'd like to everybody to thank Kinder Kim because this show is sponsored by Kinder Kim. So, I turned off >> Did you Okay, good. I was going to say, yeah, [laughter] >> and here's another thing. Um, Jason man said, "Oh, boy. The first time he saw hats in the temple, he thought it was a baker's convention. Nothing says loving like something from the oven."
[laughter] He had to hold the chuckle.
>> That's hilarious.
>> They were really They're really bad hats. Probably the worst. And why?
What was the purpose of those hats?
>> Why was that all trauma bond. You had to do something ridiculous >> because don't you know that the folds on the hat represent God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
>> Oh, they make that up.
>> And and the the the and the string that comes down that ties to your to your um sash, your robe >> would be communications from God to you, right? The folds mean something and these folds meant something. They all meant something, but nobody ever told you that. You >> to hear it from somebody else who knew >> you can't be a cult without silly hats.
>> That's right.
>> It's a good sign. Yeah. Good starting place.
>> Look at the pope. [laughter] >> Yes.
>> Now, to be fair, pop, it is a silly hat.
I mean, but also like the cardinals and the popes, they're at least cool.
>> If you're gonna get a silly hat, like go hard. And like the big like medieval collars that like go past your shoulders like >> the Jewish yamaka is kind of a >> very >> It's a good one. Yeah. It's a nondescript.
>> I like that one.
>> It's sort of like their unleaven bread.
It's a unleavened baker's hat.
>> Oh, see if I wore a yamaka jean, I'd put the little propeller on the top.
>> Yeah.
>> You know what I mean? Beanie.
>> Yeah. And >> and beanie and >> purposeful. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I actually knew about the temple rituals and saw the videos on that before I joined the church. The the the outfits didn't actually bother me. And I remember joking with another convert because we were gamers, right? So, for those of you who don't know, there's uh there's like a video there's a video game series called The Elder Scrolls Mororrow. Think Lord of the Rings on like a different planet, right, Britty? You know, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, >> it reminded me of the Imperial cult from that game.
>> You remember that?
>> I don't.
>> Okay, well, never mind. You guys could Google Imperial cult mororrow and and like the robes and everything. It's whatever. I just thought it was funny and we and we were like maybe this is a cult, but at least, you know, whatever.
Like we're getting stuff from it. We didn't know how bad it actually was. We just like, oh, okay. So, we get a nice community and then every so often we wear silly clothes and cosplay.
[laughter] >> Yeah, >> there's a there's a form of police in Spain called Laia Niona uh or no, Laia and they wear these triangle hats.
They're black shiny patent leather >> and they're triangular like pirate hats.
But you don't want to make any fun of those guys because they carry machine guns and they don't screw around. You smart off one of those guys, you're going to get beat up at least if not shot.
>> I mean, those sound like really good hats. like really I like those guys and I think their hats are really awesome and >> well their hats are >> it represents they can be backed up against a wall you know the flat side of their hat >> and still be fighting that it it won't stop them to be backed up against the wall >> who's not just throw the hat off >> the guardia in Spain it's the the uh civil guards.
Well, uh it's not the it's not the regular police. There's two forms of police. La polytheia, which is the police, and then which are these badass looking, you know, maybe maybe we could get Jean to uh uh >> find a picture >> and show you an image.
>> Okay, Jean, there's your assignment.
>> Okay.
I brought one home from my mission. Um, it wasn't the real deal. It was one that I bought in a store, but they're so cool.
>> You weren't able to steal a real one.
>> Well, you know what? Our our the branch president of the Mosto branch near Madrid, uh, he was a guardia. That's what he did for a living.
>> Wow.
>> But he never never talked about work.
No, we had a mysterious phone caller that was calling our mission pad and um doing all these weird voices and saying that she or he was going to commit Harry Kerry and you know uh we couldn't figure out who were make who was making all these calls and they were coming all times of the night and we told the branch president you know about it and it was shut down like that.
>> Good boy. He somehow knew how to figure out who was calling us and get to them and we never received another call. It was kind of like having James Bond as your branch president.
>> I wonder what happened. I want I'm curious because that's kind of like what happened here in St. Charles. The missionaries got like 37 calls overnight from somebody threatening them.
>> Oh, there was a story about that. So, >> yeah, I've been following it and going to their court hearings and stuff, too.
Uh >> um >> yeah, so far like no news. He's just in jail.
>> Maybe the branch president went to the guy's house and just unalived him himself just like Porter Rockwell would and just showed up. Boom.
>> He could have like >> if you're caught taking a picture of one of these guys, >> they because they're on horses. They're all on horses. Oh, I mean they have have them on feet, too. But they will march up to you, grab your camera, open it up, rip the film out, and drop your camera on the street.
>> What?
>> That's what happens if you're caught taking a picture of one of them.
>> What?
>> It's illegal. It's illegal to photograph them.
>> Okay.
>> So, the photographs I see, >> why don't they just not wear their hats?
That way, we don't know who they are.
>> Because then it's not as cool. No, it's intimidating to people to see these guys. I mean, they don't they're they're >> it's only >> every time we walk by, they >> they train their uh you know, machine guns on us just to screw with our heads, you know.
>> Uh they do that. They they are badass.
Uh like whatever you want to call them.
You don't mess with the guardia.
Did you get a picture of their hatching?
>> So, >> yes, you did.
>> I tried.
>> I have no idea. [laughter] >> I'm not laughing at the hat. Let's be clear.
>> I can't even That does. You can't even see that flat.
>> What is happening? What's on the >> I'm having a hard time finding a good picture that'll work. So, maybe you can go. Probably cuz nobody takes their pictures.
>> Well, yeah, they're not supposed to have their picture taken, but you're not supposed to record in the temple either.
>> Okay, Jean. Uh, let me find a picture of one while we're talking. Talk amongst yourselves. I'll find it.
>> Talk amongst yourselves.
>> It sound like the Philippine police in some respects.
>> What?
>> Did you see that, Randy?
>> Oh, yeah. There you go. That's a That's a great picture right there.
>> Oh, I've seen that hat before.
>> Yeah. See, they're they're round in front, but they they Well, you can see they You can't really see, but it comes It's flat in the back.
>> Yeah, >> I think they just don't want their picture taken because that's a stupid hat.
It >> must have some significance.
So you told [laughter] >> that's it.
>> It looks like if you turn it upside down it's something that old people pee in.
You know what I mean? The thing that sits like a bed like >> you Britney or Britty I don't know why I say Britty. Britty if you go to Spain don't mention that to him. [laughter] >> I'm not gonna >> There were a bunch of mouse ears that were defective and so they sent them to Spain. [laughter] This is all right.
>> Yeah, >> this is >> so those guys are very dangerous.
>> Yes, you >> this is cognitive dissonance right now. We have landed on the moon.
We are talking internationally on technology that human hands have created. And yet human beings all around the world enjoy wearing things on their head.
>> Yep.
>> Like wearing silly hats.
>> I mean, what is it? The the in London the guard.
>> Oh, the royal the royal guard.
>> They wear the big >> Bingham Pal. Yeah, the pal. There's the palace guard.
>> The palace guard, right?
>> The beef eaters.
>> The royal guard.
>> The beef eaters.
>> I want to see a chicken eater hat.
That's kind of funny. I don't even know why, but that was funny. [laughter] A chicken a chicken eater hat.
>> Yeah. For people that don't like red meat.
Well, see, now there's cognitive def dissonance, too. The whole red meat debacle, >> you know, the church says, "Don't eat a lot of it." And then you've got these carnivore dieters that >> eat a lot of it and they're healthier than any church member. So, what the heck?
>> My boyfriend went doing the kind of he did the carnivore well, he did his version of the carnivore diet for a little while. It was interesting.
He ate a lot of a lot of meat.
>> The word of wisdom, eat meat sparingly.
>> Yeah. No. Mor what Mormon do you know does that?
>> What Mormon do you know does that >> exactly?
>> No. They're meat eaters. Chicken eaters, too.
>> Yeah.
>> And fish eaters.
>> And they eat yak, too.
>> Diamond, you said you've never eaten yak.
>> I don't believe I have. I've had an assortment of meats here. I do not recall them being yak.
May have been especially during nut.
Well, yeah. So, like here's the thing.
Numm uh is just a national holiday that's like a week long. Everyone takes off of work. Everyone goes in the countryside. There's a lot of alcohol and a lot of food on tables. And we actually um I posted pictures on my Facebook, but um we stayed at like it's like a little it's a little um it's like a little resort thing where you could actually stay in a gear in a Mongolian yurt, right? And so like and then you pile into this, you know, like eating area. It's this long table and it's just piled of like meat and potatoes and all kinds of stuff. And the meat's mixed up.
So there's like everything from sheep horse and different kinds of meats too.
So there was like mutton, sheep liver, horse meat. There was argor milk that's fermented. There was beef.
There was chicken. There was fish. There was a lot of alcoh.
>> Yeah. It's just on one table. You go through and pick out what you want. So it's like in its own section, but there's just >> Oh, gotcha.
>> Yeah. So, it's like they're in their own section, but I mean, you're you're drinking beer with family all day and then you go and see a bunch of food. I have no idea what I ate. Honestly, not all of it.
>> That's weird because I was just craving a big tall glass of fermented horse milk.
>> It's actually really good. Um, >> well, that sounds like enough to gag a maggot. I'm just saying for horse. Sodas, caviar, salty fish eggs. Yummy.
>> Horse milk actually isn't different than cow isn't all that different than cow milk.
>> So, here's here's another cognitive dissonance thing. Section 132.
How you do polygamy >> that Joseph Smith never followed.
>> Joseph Smith observed polygamy.
>> Never followed it.
>> Never followed it.
>> Never followed it. That's weird that he didn't decide to follow that.
>> Maybe he didn't write that. I don't know what those polygamy deniers say.
[laughter] >> Do they think that he didn't write that?
I guess >> they Well, because it's there's a Kingsbury copy. There's two copies, I think, in different hands.
>> And supposedly Joseph burned it at one point. It was burn a copy was burned.
Was that the copy that the two little girls rescued parts of it from the fire?
>> No, that's the doctrine and co. That's the book of comm.
>> Okay. That's all my I know my Mormon stories better than the real stuff.
>> It's okay.
There's a story that a copy got burned.
Whether it was which copy, we don't know. But there were there are a couple of copies. Oh, somebody >> didn't like it.
>> Cognitive dissonance.
I forget who this elder was, but he gave a conference talk talking about how man would never walk on the moon. And then like >> Fielding Smith, Joseph.
>> Yeah. And then two weeks later, astronauts walked on the moon and gave him a plaque for >> walking. Was it a pl >> I don't know. Maybe he was right.
>> Maybe they never did.
>> Man was not meant man was not meant to leave the earth and travel in space. He said, >> "Well, how did the Quakers get there?
>> They were born there. Come on.
>> They didn't come from Earth.
>> Aren't men?
>> You mean they were seven feet tall?
>> You mean they didn't make a wooden boat submarine thing with two holes so they could breathe and just kind of scoot through space to get to the moon >> so they could breathe?"
>> Well, that wouldn't surprise me. That's probably in a different book. Uh, in one of the other worlds because you know that there's an endless number of worlds, Dave.
>> Then here's another one. The 2015 LGBTQ plus exclusion policy >> declared to be direct revelation from God only to be completely reversed. How many years? 3.2 years later.
>> Yeah. 2015 to 2019.
>> So God changed his mind >> cuz I was right. because I'm a prophet.
>> God God didn't like the hate comments he was getting on Earth and so he backtracked.
>> Nelson said they wrestled with it.
>> Huh. You know, that's that's something right there, too, as far as cognitive dissonance goes, is to try to understand how one being, albeit a deity, can hear the prayers of everyone on not only this earth, but the endless number of worlds he has, worlds without end, as the grains of sand on on the beach.
>> Mhm.
>> How does he hear all those freaking prayers?
>> Little faith.
>> Well, I can answer.
>> You saw the movie, didn't you? Diamond Dave, I I actually No, I'm going to say he didn't. He doesn't because I'm going to make a Star Trek reference. Star Trek Deep Space 9.
Captain Cisco uh basically gets electrocuted and he has this vision or this like whatever you want to call it, but he could see how all the planets in the known galaxy intertwined past, present, future, just like the aliens in the wormhole, right? Like his brain, his awareness went outside of that.
>> And he talks about how he could see the threads of the planets together. He couldn't see anything smaller than that like people like individual people because it's just so like one big thing. So I would argue that a dava or a dva a deity sure a deity could have created the universe but because the deity is outside of space and time and communication is finite they won't hear it.
Well, uh, thank you for coming to the deep end of the pool with me, Diamond Dave, because that goes deep deep.
>> But in the movie, he answered all the prayers at once. Remember, with the computer?
>> Yeah, but that was just from this earth.
>> That was just from this earth.
>> That's true.
>> We didn't include all the millions of worlds without end that he >> The angels have their computers, too.
They're angels and interns. the saraphim and the cherubs and all the angel classes are just >> he's got a lot of wives.
>> Yeah, >> a lot of secretaries.
>> Yeah, >> he may be assigning >> secretaries.
>> But do you think he has as many wives as he does worlds?
>> That makes sense. I mean, all the kids on one each world could be hers.
>> That's a lot of pregnancy. She spends a lot of time pregnant if that's magic pregnancy. Yeah, Matt, it's magic. It's fine.
>> Are you saying that each one of those pregnancies is um divine intervention type kind of pregnancy, immaculate conception, >> endless celestial sex, >> because the prophet has taught us that they have sex, >> real sex.
>> That's how they create spirit babies.
>> Pretend birth.
Maybe >> I don't know.
>> The birth doesn't hurt. The birth doesn't hurt though. We know. That's what I decided in heaven. That's what it must be.
>> Well, they just must plop out of her like nonstop. Just she hovers over that portal earth. [laughter] Just starts dripping in there wide open.
They're just zooming out. It's just But she's still she's still like this.
This is like [laughter] This is like I feel like we're getting into quantic mechanics here because in order for her to do that, she would have to simultaneously be pregnant. So, she's simultaneously pregnant while simultaneously giving birth >> while having sex.
>> She never stops having sex. See, >> while just think of all the cigarettes God has to smoke at the end of each one >> and oysters he must eat. [laughter] And that's another cognitive dissonance thing is that they describe a life where we have blood, where we have taste, where we have, you know, we're going to be resurrected perfect beings with skin and bones. Now, I know supposedly we won't have blood, but why do we have skin and bones?
If we're spirits, why is the resurrection necessary? Because the minute you get skin and bones, you're going to drop out of the heavens and come flying back down to Earth and splat.
Cuz you can't defy gravity like that.
>> Randy, you're being on a different planet, right? I don't know.
>> Yeah, it depends on what planet you're on.
>> The planet you're on has reverse gravity, Randy.
>> Yeah. I mean, if you're a man, you could pick your own planet.
>> I'm sorry. The planet I'm going to be on is this planet right here >> which is getting >> getting turned into the T >> paradise >> celestial aim bigger utter darkness all the way >> paradise goal glory >> I want to get my own planet and declare war on Jacob Hansen's planet and just like watch like I I'm gonna do what God did with Job in you know like God did with Satan in the book of Job right I'm literally going to cut a deal with Jacob Hansen and just be like, "All right, here's what we're going to do. Your planet can fight my planet." And we just watch [laughter] and watch. It's like they, you know, kill themselves and kill each other and make little ships and declare war on other people.
>> Little ships.
>> Oh, well, you know, uh I think that's a good idea. I've always held the opinion that we've each in the pre-existence, we all got to create one animal. And I'm sorry, but I lay claim to the black panther.
Y'all can have whatever animal you think you created. I created the black panther.
>> Which [ __ ] created the blobfish?
>> Right. Someone who was [laughter] >> Who did that? Your idea with Jim >> create we'll do a a a show where we >> what we would do if we when we create our own planet.
>> Yeah. Create our own worlds. What would it be like?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, there you go.
>> And that'll be a good thumbnail to work on. That'll be fun.
>> Yeah. So, another cognitive dissonance is uh where you when you learn you're taught that the church has an unpaid lay clergy and then you finally hear that the top guys make bank, right?
But right, >> the cognitive dissonance person says, "Yeah, but they would make way more money than that if they were a CEO of McDonald's or some other corporation that's just like the church." So the church is actually underpaying the Q15 and that's that's their sacrifice. They would make more money in the private sector. So that's the cognitive dissonance how you play with that.
>> Gotcha. Tim, can you put your hand up and click the button just under me to take me off camera for a sec?
>> There's a button just at the bottom of my cubicle here. If you put your hand up, dim your right hand. You just put Nope. Other hand. There you go. Just lift it up further. Nope. Other hand.
Other hand. No. Other. There you go. Way high. Way high.
>> Hi. Hi.
>> Square.
>> You got it. Thank you.
>> Turn them off.
So, I'll read this one. A major source of cognitive dissonance arises when members who sacrifice essential household funds for tithing under the banner of uncompromised financial honesty discover that the church leaders spent decades using dummy shell companies to hide multi-billion dollar investment fund money.
>> They didn't do that. People are aren't perfect.
Obviously, >> that's the cognitive dissonance part.
>> The Lord wanted them to.
>> Lying for the Lord is perfectly fine.
>> Of course.
>> That's right.
>> I think it would be good to do Tuesdays with them sometime on when is it okay to lie.
Because we all know that there are times where it's not only okay but highly suggested.
>> Like [snorts] Randy, you look great in your glass tonight.
>> Well, that hurts my feelings, J.
[laughter] >> You assume he was lying.
>> How about the clear look?
[snorts] >> I don't know.
>> The clear look.
>> I think the blue looks better on camera.
>> Well, thank you. I try to wear, you know, a variety of different colors.
[snorts] >> Capo's here.
>> What?
>> Hey, >> who?
>> It's Capo.
>> Capo?
>> Who's capable? As in, it's what you put on a guitar to change the key of a song.
>> Thank you, Kinder.
Yeah. Wow. Well, we boy, I'll tell you what. Time flies when you're having fun because um [snorts] it doesn't seem like we've been going for an hour and a half over >> say it doesn't seem like we've been having fun.
[laughter] >> I know. I I'm having a good time.
I'm surprised they didn't try to end the show after an hour. The Lord does not need your money.
>> Okay, Bedar.
>> He just I remember that >> your money.
>> Um, how about we know we haven't heard this one for a while.
>> If a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.
I'll never forget the talk about this guy. This is in the 90s. He was in Yugoslavia and he worked but he didn't get paid. He was waiting for the day that he would get paid so he could pay his tithing. I thought how stupid that person was.
Great. Waiting for the day when I can pay my tithing.
There's a story in general conference.
>> Oh, brother.
>> Well, we were always full tithe payers on everything, gift cards, whatever.
>> Yeah. Uh yeah, my mom would find My mom's not Mormon. She would try to find ways of giving certain gift cards to me that I wouldn't pay tithing on or like [laughter] >> Really? Yeah. Any increase. Yeah. So, there were days there were times we were shaking our couch out for money and we were still paying tithing first. That was our first >> course.
Yeah. Pay pay the Lord before you eat.
>> We took the financial like program or whatever to try to like, you know, get some help or whatever. And like Yeah.
That's the number one first thing on your budget. Tithing, >> right?
>> Hey Kendall, welcome. Glad to see you.
Do you have an >> Do you have any announce >> Do you have any announcements for us?
>> Yes. Yes, I'm engaged.
>> Congratulations.
>> That's awesome.
>> Yes. And she, unlike all my previous girlfriends, has fully left the church.
She She does not pay tithing. This one.
>> That's good.
>> But she still has her membership.
>> Well, I I haven't renounced my membership. I I'll still be connected to the church probably for the rest of my life. I I want to make it better, but I I'm not believing.
>> Please.
>> The cops hurt.
>> Tim was doing a show.
>> Another passing.
>> But yeah, guys, I just um I just came from um a meetup from the podcast um at Last She said it.
And oh my gosh, you so great. We talked all about I I believe today's uh theme is Mormons with a split mind. That's all we talked about for two >> really.
>> There were so many examples of like people that don't feel good in the church, but they still attend or they can't tell their spouses or whatever.
Like, oh my gosh, it was full of it.
>> That's exactly what the show's about tonight.
>> Something in the air. cognitive dissonance.
>> Now I It's been a week, so I'm a prophet.
>> It was my idea a week ago.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's all that we talked about. And like one person in my table, we had a lot of discussions on our table talked about like >> why we don't like be our authentic selves around people. like why we have to still kind of pretend a lot of church things and like you you know all the answers of like oh they can't handle it they treat you as a other they treat you as like an enemy or you have a virus like we we know all that but one person said something that was just totally different that I got to share if they knew my true self they wouldn't treat me like a person they would treat me like a doll they used to be in spot that that the doll occupies in the family. Like they would just you know that how Mormons are like superficial nice.
>> Yes.
>> It would transform me from a person with like emotions and feelings and ideas that they care to know into like just just a placeholder of someone else that I I I forget how they said it, but you kind of get what I'm saying of like you're not a real person, you're a doll.
You're saying that you become a pariah >> in your own family.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But it's not like some of them, I mean, some do overtly like disown you and antagonize you, but a lot of families, they kind of just like treat you like you're there. You don't count, but like you're still there. And they say superficial things. Oh my gosh, this is such a good part of the conversation of like, you know, they're still nice to you and they give you compliments, but the compliments change.
such that I one of the things that my family says to me is like, "Oh, Kendall, you're smart."
But like they never give any examples or like, you know, say what it was that was smart. They just kind of are superficial in general and never care to go into any depth because, you know, now I'm other and it's it's not safe.
>> Kendall has reached the other.
Kendall, the proof is in the pudding.
That's all I got to say. You're a good man. They'll see your example, and you know, they can't dislike you for your personal revelation that you're having yourself. You know, people >> Well, that's what my first therapist said. They said, you know, distance yourself that they're mistreating you like the ones that love you will come and find you. But I I have separated myself and no one has come looking for me.
That's right. They won't because they don't want to know what you know.
>> No, same thing as a family does if you leave the church.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I've learned, Kendall, >> you can only tell someone anything about the exo community if they ask.
Otherwise, you're shoveling [ __ ] against the tide.
>> Trevor has an example.
>> Kendall, he says what they're not saying is that you're smart. You're you're smart enough to leave the church. They don't say that part.
[laughter] >> No. Honestly, most of the time when it happens, what they're saying is, "I don't care to hear and understand what you said, but it sounded smart to me, even though I didn't understand it."
That's what I really think they're saying.
>> Yeah.
>> But that's the part that hurts is they don't they don't really care to sit there and listen and ask me a follow-up question or like, >> you know, what what am I learning about if has anything to do with other than church approved things that we think and are allowed to go into, you know, like >> how to influence and influence people is like an approved book. We can talk about that, but like anything that goes to the edges of Mormonism that isn't church approved, you can't talk about it.
>> They're saying if Kendall, if I wanted to be smart, I wouldn't be Mormon.
>> You know, Kendall, I I I gotta tell you, um, shoot was distracted for a sec. I'll think of it in a minute. But it was good. Trust me. Trevor said he had to try to reactivate him.
>> But yeah, I don't know if we can change the subject, but I need your guys' help.
In a week, I'm going to be on Kobe's podcast debating if Joseph Smith was a pious fraud.
>> Are you taking that? Are you taking that position?
>> Colby is taking the position that he was a pious fraud. I'm taking the position that he was just a fraud.
>> Just an outright fraud.
>> Oh, okay. That's interesting.
>> So, you know what?
>> Yeah. What What do you guys like imagine when you hear the word pious? Like, doesn't a pious fraud make it sound softer and he was a better dude than he was? I I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong.
>> Not necessarily. So, for me, I've debated this actually. I we all know Joseph Smith was a fraud but because he's a human being I personally believe that he had religious beliefs and spiritual beliefs and like many human beings across the world. He likely had some spiritual experiences which would fall under the term pious.
Now the fraud part comes in where he tries to weaponize and monetize those beliefs.
But I do believe that there's like something there. There there usually is to varying degrees.
>> Okay. Yeah. If you define it that way, I think I would lose the debate because you're kind of using it as whatever bad he did it. It is related to religion. It was motivated by religion. But that's not what I'm going to argue. I'm going to argue no. Pas has a certain standard.
Pas is someone who is self-sacrificing, who is humble, who cares about others, and would never ever do something at the expense or or harm of another person.
And I just see way too many examples >> where Joseph Smith that the type of broth that he did would harm people and he didn't feel bad. There was no remorse and he he perpetuated it without without the guilt that a pious person would feel. Here's humanity.
>> Sounds like this is going to be a semantic debate then because your definition as well as what I've demonstrated both are valid contexts for the word pious. Both of them apply.
>> So you [laughter] think >> you think that Joseph Smith showed a deep reverence and respect for God or religion and earnestly fulfilled his religious obligations. Is that what you're saying?
>> Diamond.
>> No.
>> No. So there's there's multiple contexts. And >> this is the definition of pious.
>> Having or showing a deep reverent respect for God or religion and earnestly fulfilling religious obligations.
>> Yeah, that's that's the top definition.
That's why I don't like the term because yeah, you can say, oh, a pious person can be corrupt or whatever, but that's not the first definition. That's not what you first think when you hear the term, >> right? And so what do you think? Wait, what do you think when you hear hear the term >> what what I think is someone like like exact they >> you're breaking up >> so when Kendall comes back out of the uh off the mountain that he's driving on >> abyss. I mean when you look at the definition like there's other definitions but he still has to technically believe in what he's proclaiming in my opinion then like maybe there is a difference you're pious if you actually believe it >> was David Caresh a pious fraud.
>> Yeah. And and think about >> Jim Jones a pious fraud. How many times have you heard the news whenever they're interviewing the neighbor of somebody that's committed a heinous crime or some other thing and the neighbor says they were such a nice person?
>> Well, my ex-husband was a really nice person.
>> You can I mean Jim Jones legitimately believed it. He went insane because of it. He was like so wrapped up in his own hubris and his own belief that >> like he was who he believed to be. He just went insane.
>> Maybe he was pious. But I I don't know.
I get the impression Joseph Smith was a fraud all through and through, but you never know. Maybe he I think he kind of grabbed caught on to it at some point.
Maybe he felt something and thought it was God. But I think he knew what he was doing was wrong. I think he knew he was tricking people, especially when he was taking all their money.
>> Yeah, that's what I'm going to argue is >> Yeah. I I think you can find examples where some of his perpetuated frauds absolutely had at least some element of good intentions. Sure, I concede that point, but there are way too many examples where he did things that harm people and he didn't care. And like I'm sorry, you just can't be pious when you're willing to cross that line. Like like who would feel safe giving their daughter into Joseph Smith's household?
a pious man, you would feel safe doing that. But Joseph Smith, you would not >> pious. So you're on the you're on the team, Kendall, that is he was not pious, >> right?
>> Right. Yeah. Correct. I think you were going >> for pious, but you're going for not pious, which I I totally concur.
>> Yeah, Kennel, I would get a whole bunch of pious things. I will argue against Kobe that he was just a fraud. And if you add pious fraud, you're kind of putting on kid gloves and being like, "Oh, Joe Smith wasn't that bad and he sincerely believed all that he did and like he was."
>> Well, I mean, you could also sympathize.
>> You could also make the claim. You could also make the claim it actually makes it worse.
>> Okay, so KD or let me see. Howie is asking, "Why does it matter how we define the man?"
>> Good question.
>> Because Colby has to have a show.
>> Howie, >> yeah, >> I understand that. But why does it matter? [laughter] Because I think what I would say to that is I I resent that we are downplaying his his heinous acts and his unethical behavior by saying like, "Oh, he wasn't a fraud. He was a pious fraud." And that's somehow better. And and I I I I'm open to hearing uh Diamond Dave's example of making it worse, but I I'm very skeptical because the first impulse you have is what is worse? A fraud? That man is a fraud.
That man is a pious fraud. I mean, one is softer and more allowing and apologetic than the other. That's my position.
>> I think I position my position murderer.
>> Well, I mean, my pos my position is that it would make it worse because if you think about the Catholic Church and the Catholics who in my opinion deserve to die in their uh in retaliation for their crimes, right? Because if you were if you we could point at someone in a bank and say that man is a fraud. Yeah, he ripped people off of money. Everyone rips people off of money, right? It's a common thing. But a pious fraud is someone who weaponizes religion and power and bastardizes an entire culture in the process of fake piety. Right.
>> Well, >> okay. Okay. But there you gave away you gave away everything. And you give away everything by saying fake piety. If he said >> Joseph Smith was a fraud that used piety as part of the fraud, I would have no problem with that. He was a fake pious fraud. No problem with that. But if you call someone pious, >> you have to go by Tim's first definition. And Joseph Smith does not match that definition.
>> Not at all.
>> If you want to go with that specific definition, sure. But as like Bry and I have said, there are other definitions in common vernacular. And this is why I think it may turn into a semantic debate because it's which which which context and which definition are you going to pick, right? If you pick yours, you have a point. If you pick mine, you have a point. If you pick someone else's, as long as it's grammatically correct and historically accurate, you have a point.
Maybe I just Maybe you have to define pious before you start the argument.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah, I've suggested that. But then >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But then it seems like it would go away because if you do define it the way Dave does, I I wouldn't have much to argue. I would be like, "No, there there's a good amount of evidence that at times, not all the time, >> but that he probably acted out of some, you know, good motivation and sincerity.
Like I I don't think I can disprove that. But if you look at the whole of his life and you're asking the question, what is the best descriptor of Joseph Smith? And your only two options is he was a fraud or he was a pious fraud. I'm sorry, but >> he is a fraud. Full stop. If you call him a pious fraud, you are downplaying for most people. for most people if you use the hierarchy of definitions you are softening the blow and making him more sympathetic than he deserves.
>> So like this is I do agree pious should be defined. I I honestly think the debate needs to be reframed because something that just occurred to me too is like what kind of fraud did Joseph Smith engage in? Well, he defrauded money. That's called financial fraud. He defi uh he defrauded people in real estate. That's called real estate fraud. And then a term you could use although it's not as common for defrauding using reli religion to defraud people is a pious fraud. Right?
So it sounds like if you look at it from that lens is okay what kind of fraud did Joseph Smith commit? Did he commit fraud of religion or did he just commit fraud?
>> Yeah. I also would concede if if we change it to Joseph Smith perpetuated pious fraud, I also would have much less of an issue with that. But was Joseph Smith a pious man? If you if you type into chat GPT right now, what are examples from history and literature of pious individuals, you'll you'll get a list.
Joseph Smith does not belong in that list.
Uh >> well, you will get Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa did kill people.
>> Hang on just a second.
>> Yes, she did.
>> Kendall, I would ask Colby what how pious was Joseph as he was negotiating with farmers to find the treasure buried on their lots and their property and collecting the money. How pious was he when he told him that the angels pushed it down deeper >> so as to not appear >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's one of my my points. Yeah. I I completely agree. Like he clearly was just frauding people. That's the best explanation.
>> Yeah. Come up with a bunch of other >> come up with a bunch of other things like a pious philanderer or a pious murderer or a pious and do a a list of things that are horrible and say how does that make it any better?
>> You just described the Catholic Church.
[laughter] >> Yeah. What's that new um Netflix documentary the the fundamentalist Mormon Samuel Bankman or something?
>> Yeah. Samuel Samuel Baitman.
>> Samuel Batesman. Yeah. So he was a pious frag, >> right?
>> Tim is a pious podcaster.
>> Really?
>> But you know, I always looked at pious as being a negative comment as I was growing up.
>> Yes. Exactly. when someone would say, you know, uh, oh, he's this pious, arrogant, you know, it just kind of fit in with the negative had negative context to it. Do you agree, Tim?
>> Yes, I agree.
>> Yeah, in my dictionary, that's definition three or four typically.
>> Gotcha. I >> that absolutely is valid, but I just resent it of like think think of it from this angle. This is kind of my main thing is like all of us in in the ex Mormon and Mormon sphere like you you kind of know Joseph Smith, but if you have no context and and someone is called a pious fraud, I I think that does have a softening effect versus like he was a fraud. And so for never Mormons, if that's their first exposure to a descriptor of Joseph Smith, I I just I I don't think that that um is fair. When you look at the whole course of his life, especially at the end of his life when his frauds were, you know, so sexual and selfish in nature, that wasn't piety. That was pure self-interest.
>> He wanted to be everything. He wanted to be the mayor, the president of the church. She wanted to control Nauvoo.
She was being a narcissistic megalomaniac basically.
>> Yeah. And a pious person would be like, "Oh, I'm reluctant to give get power."
You know, like that's piety, >> right?
He sought power.
>> Unless he's like Jim Jones or who was a guy of the Heaven's Gate that was called a pious [ __ ] >> Uh the I forget the name, but >> Heaven's Gate that was uh do Uh, >> okay. Yeah, >> Apple White. I >> think people said that about David, too.
>> Apple. Yeah, correct.
>> James, James Apple White.
>> Yeah, I think that was James Apple White. I think that >> Well, yeah. Talking with Diamond Day gives me an idea. This is going to be my my debate tactic. I'm gonna have Joseph Smith be a video game character and we're gonna give him points for the times where like I I really was moved by Ganesha and Kobe's recent podcast where when he was you know >> uh publishing the Book of Mormon like a lot of things that went in there like oh the Catholic Church is the [ __ ] of the earth like that was put in there to comfort German um the the Germans in his life that are like oh Yeah, we are Protestant and the Catholic Church is evil. And it's like, oh well, if that's how you feel, I have this answer for you. I want to make you feel good and follow me. That's the other part of my uh argument is like he was doing the pious things. Maybe you can call it pious, but even his pious things you could just as easily say is that he was doing those things to get more followers.
Everything he was doing was reconciliation within his own family >> and elsewhere but more with his own family with his uncle can't remember his name you know the one that was the athe >> he was trying to bring his family together the one that was universalist and this and >> okay that's that's the strongest argument I do I do if that's his motivation to write the Book of Mormon I I would concede that that is a pious act. What do you guys think about that?
>> I told the cop I was a pious speeder and didn't get out of the ticket.
>> Yeah, >> I don't know. A lot of weird stuff involved.
>> Did Joseph write like the Book of Mormon because he wanted to sell the novel?
>> Well, look at the Gold Bible Company, which was around in the 18 teens. We still we don't have that much information on it, but there was a group of people trying to start a company called the Bold Gold Bible Company.
>> Okay. Okay. Let's everybody give Brady the floor.
>> Yes.
>> Oh, I don't know. There's just so much that goes into it than more. There's so much more than him just writing the Book of Mormon. I think the whole thing just sounds like lies that became bigger lies that became bigger lies and then he figured out, hey, like I could I could really like come up with some weird stuff and con some people with this. And then he also got a wife out of the deal. I'm not really sure how that's involved, but I mean he kind of like snuck away with her. Not. Yeah. But you know, like at the beginning of it though, it makes me wonder if there was some reason he had to get married to get the golden plates or some, you know, it just makes me wonder how she was tricked in all this as well. Using women all along the way, using people all along the way. None of that is good.
>> Well, the angel told him that he should, the spirit told him that he should bring his brother. And then when he died, he was supposed to look into a glass, a mirror or something, and he saw Emma. So his next thing was to bring Emma, if I remember right.
>> So there's that.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. He he was a complex character and like I I still would concede today that like he and in his time was an innovator. He was progressive. He he gave a lot of uh more liberal and and compassionate theological answers compared to other Christian sects of of his day. Like I concede all of that. But he himself a pious man. Like >> I don't >> Yeah. I I just don't think he's a pious man. Like he he definitely kind of like what Britney was saying like I kind of view him as like he was a con man. He was a fraud. He used religion. Sure. But he was kind of surprised by his own success and he just kept on going with it.
>> Wow.
>> Laura asked >> Laura asked um what was it? Um did he buy what he was selling?
>> No.
>> Yeah. Well, probably >> because he knew he had to keep parts of it secret.
He kept having to change it. He knew.
>> I think we've had some great discussion on cognitive dissonance and we've got so time.
>> Okay. Yeah. To bring it back. Oh, sorry.
I was going to say one more thing about cognitive dissonance.
>> I I think we invent terms like that.
>> Okay. Okay. Go ahead.
Uh we'll have Jean put the link in the comments so that if you'd like to come on for the after show, we'd love to have you.
>> Uh and anyway, go ahead, Kendall. I say what you were going to say. Oh, to bring it back to cognitive dissonance, I I myself would use the term pious fraud in a context. For example, like if I if I was talking to a true believer, like I wouldn't I wouldn't out and out call him a fraud, even though I think that's completely appropriate and the best descriptor, like I I I need a way to still keep the dialogue going with someone who disagrees with me. It's a it's a useful term, but I don't I don't think Joseph Smith was a pious man. I think he was a narcissist and very egotistical and selfish and the opposite of the first definition of piety. Like if you go down to the fake bad one.
>> Sure.
>> Yep. So useful.
>> Thanks everyone.
>> Because true believers can't handle the truth.
We'll still continue this talk. We got um everything listed. So, thanks everyone for watching.
>> Come to the after show. Comes to our nation.
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