The National Assembly's Executive Undertakings and Petitions Committee, constituted on March 4, 2026, establishes a formal framework for monitoring ministerial commitments made during parliamentary proceedings and processing public petitions. Executive undertakings are defined as any undertaking, assurance, commitment, pledge, or promise made by a member of the executive during a sitting of the National Assembly, which the committee must track through a register and report on twice yearly (March and September). The petitions framework, adopted in 2024, requires petitions to be finalized within 60 days including tabling of reports, with the committee having powers to recommend petitions for house debate and refer matters to other committees. The committee operates under Rule 67, which grants it the authority to call members of the executive to account for unfulfilled commitments.
Executive Undertakings and Petitions, 14 May 2026追加:
Thank you very much. Um, for those of you who haven't met, uh, Porsche, please introduce yourself.
Good good evening members. My name is Porsha Davi. I am the acting uh committee secretary. I currently um work also work as a committee assistant for the portfolio committee on employment and labor. Thank you.
>> And if we could just have the presenters um introduce themselves. Thank you.
>> Thank you so much chairperson and members. My name is Tanya Lines. I'm the under secretary for house plenaries at the national assembly.
>> Um good evening members. My name is Pisak procedural advisor. I work under Miss Lions National Assembly table.
>> Good evening. My name is John Mang. I'm a pro advisor in the National Assembly.
>> Good evening honorable members. My name is Maka Pao. I'm the internet administrator from ICT. Thank you.
>> Thank you very much to everybody and thank you for being here this evening.
It's the only time we'll hold an evening meeting I think. Um and hopefully in future we will be able to do more of our sessions uh virtually. Um sorry Dr. Men isn't here yet. I gather he's on the way. Um so good evening and and welcome to this it's the first meeting of this committee for executive undertakings and petitions uh since we were constituted on the 4th of March. Now there was a landmark constitutional court ruling in 2012 when the late IFPMP Dr. Mario Orani Ambassini caused the court to declare that the NA rules governing the then committee on private members legislative proposals and special petitions that it was unconstitutional.
And even though the committee wasn't officially shut down, there was never an announcement, never a formal closure, it did cease working uh pending the rules update and they've never been updated and here we are 13 years later. So no one has been able to lodge a petition in the National Assembly for 13 years.
Petitions have only gone to the NCO. So it's quite embarrassing I think for the National Assembly that that we've had nothing for so long. Um so we are actually starting completely from scratch. Um we we've had the executive undertakings added to the mix. they have a like committee in the NCO with executive undertakings and we'll go into that. Um, and yeah, I I I do look forward to a committee which unlike its predecessor will never be accused of being the committee where good ideas go to die because that's was the case 13 years ago. Um, so we don't want to stifle parliamentary debate. Um and we've providing for an entire element of public participation that's really been missing for a very long time in the National Assembly [clears throat] and this committee was promoted uh to promote public involvement in the work of parliament and that is via their formal request to the institution to intervene in a matter or red address a grievance and the committee now has an oversight role in terms of executive undertakings. that would be undertakings by ministers uh speaking in the national assembly. Now to my mind the executives is of ministers although I have seen in one presentation they've included deputy ministers which is no longer the executive. So I'll need an explanation for that. Um and they will now be given in writing a finite time within which to update this committee on just how far along their promise entity or undertaking in terms of completion be it a school or specialized units or suspension of a particular staff member any undertaking made to the nation we have to now follow up on and see that it actually has been dealt with completed etc. So um most formal petition systems around the world um have very common features such as an admissibility check um the reviewing of petitions to ensure they follow certain rules before you can accept them. Um there are subject restrictions. Uh they really must be about matters of public interest or policy and on the whole they look to redress grievances. Now in our constitutional democracy uh anyone may petition parliament and we look forward to this committee further allowing South Africans to exercise their constitutional rights. Uh petitions do foster public participation and they allow members of the public to directly communicate with elected public representatives and further allow them to make requests and voice their grievances about government policies, programs or structures. So that's a whole different section. They're two completely separate entities that we have to oversee. Um and we will we will run through them now. We will we've brought in various experts in in the various fields. And um just to bring you up to speed quickly with what has happened since we was we were uh put together as a committee uh we've held various EXCO meetings in relation to the hiring of staff, the sorting of admin and the budget and what is expected of us because it was all very vague. And so these experts are going to to fill us in with their various presentations this evening to show us where we're going, where we should be going. and yeah I I've met with various heads of departments um and our our computer team are creating actual computer systems to to log and sort the petitions on the one side and the executive undertakings on the other side. far greater need for the latter because of the far greater presentation list by ministers to the National Assembly. Um so I think um unfortunately Dr. Manen isn't here. He's uh on his way I gather and he's the head of the the committee division as such and uh he's been he's been a great source of guidance for us and of course the under secretary of the NA pleneries Tanya Lines is here with with her team and presenters. So yeah I think um let us let us head into the the presentations.
Um, which one do we have up first?
>> We have the head.
>> Uh, uh, good, good evening, uh, members.
We'll have the one on executive undertakings first. So, could we, uh, we go ahead with the one on executive undertakings, please? Just put your mic on.
Um, >> thank thank you.
>> Apologies. Please go ahead.
>> Okay. Thank you, Sh. Once again, my name is Pis.
I thought uh I should just preface this uh few slides on executive undertakings by stating that um the committee has two streams as the chair has already indicated uh executive undertakings and petitions.
Uh so the two of us sitting here are focusing on each of uh those streams and the new rules which have established this committee um are put together uh in a sense combining both the two streams. But at the end of the day is this this committee which will settle what would then become the guidelines regarding executive undertakings and what is uh has already been discussed at length and Mr. Mayanga will speak to that which is guidelines with regard to petitions. So I'll be speaking on executive uh undertakings.
Um as the chair has uh already indicated every time we speak about providing mechanisms uh for ensuring government accountability, executive accountability, a reference point is always to section 55 of uh the constitution. So executive undertakings is but one of the many and I suppose one can call incremental ways in which uh parliament the national assembly in this case is seeking to exert and strengthen its mechanisms for holding the executive to account.
So the rules of the assembly as recently established have added that particular function and have established this particular committee to have a specialized and focused attention on that.
Uh this uh next slide um next slide.
Um I would like to just skip it for now because I will speak about it when I get to the guidelines themselves. Go to the next slide.
So as indicated um the the rules establishing this uh committee are quite clear they are already in our uh collection of newly established uh rules and uh just to uh reemphasize them so that they are quite clear what what uh the role of this committee is uh the executive undertakings and petitions committee it function um must be to pursue the implementation of undertakings made from the floor of the house, to report to the house twice a year on the extent to which executive undertakings have been implemented and where implementation um is lacking uh and where time frames are not clear to actually pursue that with the relevant member of the executive counc.
to consider and report when called upon on petitions referred to it by the speaker in accordance with the rules on petitions the guidelines and the parliamentary petitions framework that Mr. Many will talk about in detail.
So the important part is to recognize that this committee may recommend guidelines for adoption by the rules committee regarding the execution. So what we are presenting today is not a set of guidelines that have been adopted. It's a draft for discussion which at some point I think the committee will settle uh with um what they may want to see added on this particular set of uh uh drafts. So it is this uh committee's role to make these guidelines. From time to time there may be changes required as the committee progresses with its work to reemphasize the point. The guidelines are draft. They have served before the subcommittee of rules.
Um and that's where the basis of this discussion uh is. The subcommittee of rules was presented with this uh guidelines and um they were recommended to the rules committee for uh forwarding as a discussion document which needs to be settled at some point by this committee.
So the purpose of the guidelines is to provide a framework for decision making uh where decisions are made the role of the speaker visa v the committee itself and how within the committee itself uh it will be interacting with the relevant member of the executive to whom a set of undertakings have been identified. side have been ascribed and have been communicated.
So the committee it will help the committee to ensure that actions uh of the committee are consistent with established standards and uh best practices.
And talking of uh best practice, it must be um emphasized that we didn't seek to reinvent the wheel in so far as the executive undertakings are concerned. As the chair has indicated, there is already an existing select committee in the NCO which has been uh running with this particular function for some time. So um some of the proposals that are are here are taken from uh what uh is prevailing in the NCO. But of course at in the national assembly it is this committee which will shape what uh goes forward because uh of its own peculiarity.
Um so uh the definitions uh uh if you look at them indicates that an executive undertaking should mean uh any undertaking assurance commitment a pledge or promise made by a member of the executive during a sitting of the national assembly.
uh I think that's important uh aspect in the guidelines themselves but later on I will uh speak to just a set of particular expressions which could uh constitute what an undertaking is. So in terms of the definition, a register would mean a register of executive undertakings which this committee uh will from time to time work with and it will be a register which uh will be used to follow up uh with the relevant member of the executive in terms of uh implementation and if uh at a particular point the committee feels that the matter has been closed it will be sort closed but uh and I think on a continuous basis the committee will will communicate with the relevant member of the executive uh on uh issues or matters that have still outstanding in terms of the commitment made in terms of the proposals. Um, And when we write or the speaker writes to them uh ascribing what they have said as a pledge, they may want to redirect that uh clearly indicating that the area or the specific actions are actually following within another member of the executive. So they would have the responsibility to forward the matter to the relevant member for consideration.
But they would still have to report back to the speaker to say I have um acknowledged receipt of uh your correspondence regarding an undertaking that I may have expressed but in reality it falls within the area of responsibility of uh minister X and therefore I have forwarded that uh because it would be important for the speaker to know at all times where a matters.
So an executive undertaking should be monitored during proceedings on questions and members statements and related ministerial responses as these are most likely areas where undertakings would be made. This statement uh chairperson and members is important to contextualize that um as a starting point in this particular uh function area you may want to focus on a particular uh sittings or sessions or proceedings of the assembly um instead of the entire of the assembly.
sittings uh because in that case it might make the work of the committee unwieldy. But at the end of the day it is this committee which will say okay we hear you. You say you want to focus or we should focus for starters on questions meaning the responses commitments that are made in response to questions and if you see and you know we've got quite a substantial number of question sessions uh to which there are responses and commitments undertakings made. We also have member statements the seven opportunities for responses as a target area that the committee could but in addition to this the committee might want to say we want to focus or add another uh area where we believe we should derive um our undertakings.
And of course uh this speaks also to the capacity to be able to uh draw out these undertakings because what will uh happen the capacity of staff to be able to draw out what will happen in terms of uh the identification of these is that the table meaning officials in the table will be responsible to draw out from their hands what would constitute what in their understanding based on the guidelines would constitute undertakings. uh put them clearly uh and contextualize them in such a way that there is no ambiguity about the fact that that is a clear undertaking made by a minister. So um the table uh would be responsible for scrutiny of the relevant part of the answer. In this case, we have proposed questions and member statements and related ministerial responses to that.
So upon such determination by the speaker. So this once they've been identified, presented to the speaker by the table, they must be tabled um by the speaker. In other words, the speaker would like with most referrals uh put on ATC uh and clearly indicate and ascribe the relevant undertakings identified uh refer them to this committee and also at the same time write to the relevant identified members. mber of the executive to uh indicate to them that on sitting such and such you made this particular undertaking assurance.
Um the assembly would appreciate a response on that uh or a commitment to response at a particular date uh that the minister may have indicated in the undertaking because some undertakings may have timelines in them. commitments that have timelines, but others may be um commitments, pledges on something that would be done in the medium to long term. But the speaker would still uh require some kind of indication as an initial response from the relevant minister on a possible date where such implementation will happen. So uh undertakings will not at all times be as clear as that. But the speaker should be able to set some time some kind of a time frame if the member of the executive is not uh committing to a particular time frame.
um once the report if there is a response um because as I indicated you might have a commitment from the minister that says in two weeks time we will be uh doing such and such at a particular uh location as part of our delivery process.
um or in the fourth quarter we will be tableabling before parliament this uh draft this policy or whichever the the undertaking might be. So the speaker once that particular undertaking has been identified communicated to the minister um the referral to the committee would be for the purpose of ensuring that in terms of the response uh the response by the minister uh actually speaks to the commitment as made Um and of course as to how the committee uh will do that will be dependent actually on the nature the content of the interaction between now the committee and the minister to refer to request further action or further information.
Uh the committee must keep a register of all undertakings. Uh the register of course will be uh something that the table from an administrative point of view will keep but that will be the property of the committee because it will be tabled from time to time on this committee. so that the committee should be in a position to know where things are. I will just show I think you probably already have seen a proposed tracking for register.
So as I indicated we have looked at uh the NCO as a starting point in terms of best practice. They have developed a set or a standard set of expressions that would constitute executive undertakings. That would h this would help us especially as the table but also members um in drawing out from the hansat and saying for sure that this is a commitment and assurance a pledge that has been made and therefore requires some kind of action and and response.
Um if I may share uh this uh and I don't know whether you are able to see go into the next slide please this would be a proposed tracking uh register um and again uh it's it's it's a it's a draft you may want to say uh we want certain aspects to be reflected.
Um it will identify the minister and deputy minister chair. Uh earlier on I think you made the point. We we recognize that u the cabinet is cabineting it's purely uh ministers and not deputy ministers. But our understanding is that when you talk about the executive, you would include uh deputy ministers who for the most part would also uh be responding when the minister is not there because they are talking to the functions of the department.
Um so for that reason we have used a broader term that says executive would in this instant include a sitting where a minister makes that commitment or a deputy minister because we have a lot of deputy ministers that have responded to questions on behalf of the the department the ministry or responding to um member statements. So we would then in column three uh put the undertaking in a drawing straight from the handset sometimes to clearly uh indicate the the the verbatim what the minister said. But we will of course to be able to manage this particular register only uh draw that which may be relevant because it can end up being a very unwieldy document itself but um it's the date of the sitting itself so that we are very clear when it was made the date it was communicated to the ministry the letter from the speaker to the minister uh the date uh to be communicated when it was the date of response. If there is any response, we can expect an initial response as I indicated where the minister uh clearly uh responds and acknowledges the speakers and owns up to the commitment and provides either a a definite response on certain aspects that are for which the minister is very clear at that time and and implementation probably has happened. but also maybe a response that includes some date in the future where a commitment would be realized. So uh when we look at responses and as part of the scrutiny of this committee, it would look at at at at the content and what the minister is saying because those responses will be referred to the committee for scrutiny and to ensure that uh um um what the uh response says deals with the commitment as expressed.
The date referred to the committee. Of course, this is the referral by the by the speaker to the committee to consider that and there will from time to time build be ATC's which will be clearly indicating a new undertaking that has been communicated and referred and then the committee report. I think in the in the guidelines we we we spoke about the committee uh reporting I think on his overall work twice September and I think March. But it may well be that in between those those times the committee may also want to to uh table a report on a specific uh on a specific um commitment.
So and then we would obviously make a reference to the ATC where that report is. These reports obviously have to also and I think as the the ones relating to the overall work of the committee in terms of its progress in getting things uh done and pushing the ones that would be in in September and March because this obviously will be a rolling work over time. the this register itself if you look at it we've uh we'll be doing it based on an annual session January to to December and the next year January to uh to to December. Um I think the last slide says that the the committee in terms of its accountability first it has to keep a register and secondly it must report to the house in March and September of each year. I will uh and I gave Porschia if you can flight that list of expressions just quickly.
Okay. I think while Porsha is looking for them, I can just talk to what I have here. In the NCO they have u as part of their guidelines a standard list of statements or expressions that would constitute executive undertakings.
The list itself is not exhaustive. Um and uh as this committee you may want to look at it and say uh this is a good starting point.
uh we must follow suit or we want to add so on. It's a very long list uh but as I said it's not exhaustive.
When we look at the answer uh we will look at words like the matter is under consideration that may well be uh responding to a particular straightforward question. Uh so we will look for those with expressions like that. I shall look into it. When a minister says I shall look into it is making a pledge a commitment to a member that I we will look into it and that it must be very clear in the identified what it is. Inquiries are are being made. I shall inform the honorable member and I'm just going through the list now. This is primarily the concern of the department.
I shall write to the department.
I assure the house all suggestions by honorable members will be carefully considered. I can imagine um the concerns raised either as part of the uh statements or member statements or budget vote debates uh where members raise issues uh that need to be considered when a an assurance of that nature is made. Um for us that would constitute a an undertaking. I shall study the the conditions on the spot during my tour that could probably be about a delivery point. I shall consider the matter. I will suggest to the department. We'll put the matter in the shape of a resolution. I shall see what can be done about it. I will look into the matter before I can say something. So uh let me not run through the entire set chair but it just gives you an idea of uh when we put in the register and when we identify for the speaker's purpose uh to to say this would constitute an undertaking this is what will guide us from from gleaning the answer this is and this was what u we'll be coming to so um I will not as I said go through the entire I will uh just pause here and uh um for the chair to take >> members I think shall we do questions right now while it's fresh in our minds let's let's take any questions for any issues that that come to mind in relation to that particular so go ahead thank you very much Just one question um which is the guidelines um outlines the process uh where the speaker writes to the member of the executive to say this is an undertaking that you've made in the NA and we would require you to provide update on the implementation of that commitment. Now the question I'm asking is that in the guidelines is there any provision that is provided that that uh determines what happens if the minister or that undertaking has not been implemented. So what then happens?
So we just write to the minister the minister responds and that's it.
>> [clears throat] >> So cuz I my understanding is that the objectives of this port of this committee is to ensure that commitments that are made are actually implemented.
So then what provisions do we have in our hands as a committee or the office of the speaker uh to ensure to hold that member of the executive accountable if that commitment has not been implemented.
>> It's not the same.
>> Okay. Thank you. Mine is linked to the question that has just been forwarded by honorable Joy to say what tracking mechanisms are there to ensure that the undertakings that have been submitted to the executives are implemented and where perhaps the reasons are be because there is lack of perhaps proper legislation or guidance. What mechanisms are there for this committee to ensure that we then influence legislation in that particular portfolio so that they can be there can be an implementation because at times it might be that these were not implemented because legislation lacks or there is regulations that lack or policy the policy environment is ambiguous perhaps then what does this committee has in terms of mechanism MS that they can then for example write to the or engage with a petroleum or electricity committee to say start working on this legislation to so that you you are able to then implement this coming from the public based on the lack of a proper uh legislation within that space.
Thank you, chair. Um, chair, I would like to say thank you very much for the presentation. I think it's been quite useful in terms of us understanding the the direction on where where we're going. Um, I also believe that this committee has the potential to become very important in terms of accountability if implemented the consequences where that there's been a delay not only to us as a committee but also then to the speaker otherwise it's an indefinite length of time for one to to work in. Um a big one for me chair is has sufficient administrative and research capacity been allocated to monitor all proceedings effectively. Um all good ideas do come to an end when there isn't enough tools to do the work.
And then I think also quite importantly is how will the commit this committee coordinate with the portfolio committees um in order to avoid duplication of oversight work. Thank you very much chair.
Were there any further questions?
No. Uh I had a couple of my own.
Um there there is a there was a suggestion um that we focus on only perhaps questions and answers at first and I I totally disagree. Uh we can't cherrypick what we do. Um I think uh we need to ask the table um to to look at everything that has happened since we were constituted on the 4th of March. Troll through see if there were any executive undertakings from that time and we need to deal with them. We we can't say well there were two months that they escaped us or we were only doing this and not those. I don't think that's acceptable.
I think we need to to ask if that can be done. Um, and I also, and this, as you say, is a a proposed layout of how the system will work. That's how I see it. It seems to me it adds a huge workload on the speaker who now has to to write to the ministers to say, well, you just said this. Um, when in fact, this committee could do that very easily. Um so we have a committee formulated to do exactly that to do the oversight. So I would propose that we we um acknowledge the the executive undertaking with the relevant minister as it comes in. We ask for feedback by a certain date that we determine and we ask for a proposed completion date and we work on that. But if it's the if it's the speaker having to ask for extra things, then we're we're doubling down on what the speaker is doing and it just seems to add us massive workload on the speaker when we have a full committee that is that is uh has been asked to do this job. So I would ask if we can maybe revisit the actual timeline of what needs to be done. Um we're not simply a storage unit. We're we're supposed to be an active committee. Um and just speak to me if if deputy ministers respond on behalf of ministers does that count as an executive undertaking? It does. So it's because they are in the pos in the shoes of the minister as it was as it were. Okay. So that makes sense. Um and then when we give feedback twice a year as a committee, do we do it as a committee? In other words, each each party gets x minutes to do a statement on it or a declaration on it or what what is the layout? Um, it surely can't just be a report presented by me. It's got to include the members. So, could you fill us in on that? Um, and yeah, I was interested in the standard list of phrases, but I assure you we will no doubt come up with our own. Um, so thank you very much for that. So yeah, um I'm interested the the the questions that have been asked by the other members are ones that have been going through my mind. So I'm very keen to hear the answers. Let's go through that before we move to the next presentation. Thank you very much.
Um the first that I noted um on uh will there be a research team to work assist uh the committee in its scrutiny work and I think it's uh was also asked um on the sufficiency of capacity to deal um yes My understanding at this point is that from the committee section side there is an allocated researcher who has uh also experience with working with the select committee that side of the parliament. So they have a background in terms of how they would uh uh deal with researching areas that uh have been identified as uh undertakings and therefore require require to be pursued. um on the side of the table. It's really to pour through the the Hansert in identifying uh these uh and secondly keeping a register that is consistently updated and coming from time to time to this committee to to then also speak to items or issues that the committee may want.
And then there's a I think this committee secretariat um sufficiency can never be you know 100% but at this point um there's a secretariat that will keep the record.
There's a content uh that will uh from the table that will ensure that there is a levels of accuracy uh clear articulation of the that particular undertaking um in at first instance with the with the um executive through the speaker but I'll come back to what what the chair has that um I think the the referral the referral will be um by the speaker if you would notice uh when matters are referred to the committees they are placed on the ATC and that clearly identified so we will have a a set identified approved by the speaker of undertakings and it may be a set that relates to three, four or five ministers from a particular sitting or sittings depending on the on the time. But the standard time for communicating uh which uh we will probably want to keep from the NCO is that within a 7 day maybe 10 day period after the sitting ever constitutes has been identified as constituting that first instance communication from the speaker must be to the to the executive.
uh clearly identifying the date of the sitting. So you don't have long periods of time before you can say uh a communication on a um undertaking has has been made. So there will be from an administrative point of view uh a time period within which this has to be uh communicating communicated. um referral coming back. Yes, it will be on the ATC and then referred to this particular committee reporting by the committee should identify. Okay.
Yeah. the the committee should have the ability in terms of its powers as it scrutinizes the responses because what's going to be referred is not just the what is it the undertaking the responses received to an undertaking will also be referred back to the committee and that's where the interrogation and the scrutiny at committee level uh looking at the response against it that where it will happen and that's where the researcher's work will also uh come in and chair that's where the interaction with the minister going forward is between the committee and and the minister in terms of sufficiency of the response or time frames that may not be uh h met but I'm distinguishing that communication from the initial communication by the speaker and I I'll come back to that the mechanisms to influence when responses are not are not clear as I've I've just said uh as part of the scrutiny and interrogation when the matter has been referred uh the committee should be in in a in a position to influence either speeding up. But this being a transversal committee, there is a provision in our rules that clearly allows conferral between committees. So you may want to confer with the relevant portfolio committee which may have more in terms of their they are either their archives um regarding a particular matter. uh so as part of the mechanism to influence there might be a need to to confer with the relevant portfolio committee and that's permissible in terms of of of of the rules but as I also indicated chair the uh researcher role should also be to identify whether the response itself is consistent maybe with what has previously been said. Um the written response is it consistent with what has previously been said by the minister maybe in the same house but on another platform or made to the uh portfolio committee. So that level of uh work I want to believe should come into into the picture to assist the committee uh as part of its scrutiny of the responses.
Um the register will it be accessible?
I want to believe this being a register that will be kept by the committee.
It should be as accessible as committee documents are accessible. Uh so um we don't see a problem. How do we deal with delays?
Um there will invariably be u responses which by their nature uh clearly respond directly that I said in October this and that will happen and in my response I should be in a position to uh point whether this and that has happened.
uh and if this and that has not happened clearly give a a a reason but the the first instance of communication as I said chair from the speaker uh will be and depending on the content of the commitment itself will be such that the speaker is able to identify whether the commitment has a time frame which was said or not and if there's no time frame frame. The speaker will request the the the relevant member to provide a time frame by which that particular commitment will be uh undertaken. Um and the referral will obviously be to to to the committee to pursue further. Um so the response by the minister might will probably be say yes I did make the commitment and this is the date by which I I I I believe uh uh it will materialize or it will be implemented and the committee has to hold the to that particular date going forward. Um but of course I think things will depend on the dynamism between the the committee itself and the relevant member of the executive in terms of the correspondence uh going forward. Um I've noted that the chair has indicated that the focus area can be only on uh what we've suggested which is currently uh cautioned all caution sessions um as well as member statements and responses there too. this uh we had put as a from practical point of view for starters not that it's going to be the beginning and the end uh we want to believe that uh uh from also a capacity point of view we should work incrementally um because working on a hsack for every sitting will require a a an entire unit on its own that will be pouring on on on on on that and that is um something that uh we wouldn't want to make at this particular point a commitment that will be we we will be able but we here and I think Miss Lions is here uh that the committee would like to widen the scope of the focus areas um And I also have heard the chair that it is the committee that should be identifying the undertaking or uh communicating the undertaking. Um instead of getting the speaker in the picture.
Um we have found that uh with uh for instance house resolutions that uh there is more of a response when formal communication comes from the speaker. Um and we don't necessarily say uh chair correspondence coming from chairperson is not responded to. I want to believe that it is responded to but the speaker also has the responsibility to ensure that the system does work. So that's why she we we thought as part of the the guidelines for now at the first instance she should be in the picture refer the matter to the committee leave it to the committee to work through it up until and the committee will in the interim either make reports or at defined times in this case March and September provide a bigger report which I will then talk to.
Uh so the chairperson in terms of your your suggestion we will also note that that uh shouldn't we be making the the committee the the first instance of identifying and communicating with the with the with the minister the relevant minister reporting by the committee. Uh how okay the understanding is that the committee will be reporting in in these two periods on progress that has been made with regard to uh ensuring pushing forward implementation and they will also as part of their report be in indicating meeting where there's probably ministers who are ignoring who are ignoring correspondents who are not making clear commitments commitments to implementation.
Um the committee will give an overall picture of in a given period we had x number of undertakings referred to us.
we've been able to pursue to our satisfaction uh these uh uh undertakings because we have received what we consider to be sufficient responses.
uh in this same period we have had difficulty maybe with particular ministries uh and I I would want to believe that you want to report that to the house in the house it is a committee report like any other committee it's a committee report delivered by the chair and the members of the committee will be as part of the speaking list I'm sure be speaking uh to that because they will be articulating their experience of uh the breakings of the of the system uh and the interaction with the so it would be done in the same way like any other uh committee report. Um but I I I I did say that I I foresee the possibility that you may feel that uh reporting only in September and March might be too too too long a period. Um it might depend really on on on uh the the content that comes back and so let me stop there. I have noted the areas that you really have made strong point about being uh that need to be consider reconsidered as part of the but it is this committee that will finally define the the final set of uh of guidelines. Before I move uh to to the under secretary, just just one point of clarity. Um you said that you would keep the list and I'm arguing with that.
Um I think we need a full list that we keep as a committee so we can go anytime. You said you you would have a full list you would show us once or twice a year. That not going to work. uh we need the full list of undertakings on our own system so we can we can monitor and I've asked the IT buffins to come up with a system that will show us yes we wrote to them on this date this is when the response is due Heather responded it's got to be a whole system tracking system um which we certainly I mean you will have your own list but we we certainly need our own um system so if I may hand over to the the secretary.
>> No, I think you you had asked the initial question and I did not get a sense because uh it's going to be too cumbersome for the speaker to write politicians make promises every day. So but if there is dedicated someone somewhere with a content advisor who follows up from a particular point moving forward it can possibly be easy.
So I didn't hear you what you said because the speaker won't write to those people. You might end up not having issues. But secondly then the other committees that we serves in we serve in they've got certain vested powers that we use when things don't happen. So we asked the question without asking directly. what powers do this committee have to sanction where things or promises have been made and not deliver has occurred over time. So we just want to get that sense from you.
Thank you.
I think I I'll leave the the the question that you have directed to the under secretary but in response to honorable Msina um certainly the this committee enjoys all the powers under rule 67 uh which includes the ability to call um members of the executive to account, including for their appearance before the committee to account for um things that uh may have been promised, pledged, committed to and which the committee has [clears throat] uh uh corresponded with the minister and there's no so there is that power which is a common power shared. So it could definitely the committee has that particular uh and when I said the speaker will be the speaker doesn't this the speaker secretariat under Mr. which is the table in this case will be the ones I um and when I say identify it's providing a secretariat uh service because I do not see the committee sitting going through a a a handset to identify but it is this secretariat which will pull out and uh put together letters communicating communicating to the relevant member to do that first initial. So we do that in terms of the speaker's communication with the executive on an everyday basis maintaining the register itself. The register belongs to the committee and the committee will have it at any time.
populating and updating it administrative will will be our um uh our responsibility.
Um but if it's about if the question is about we want to be the the the first identifier or the primary identifier of what constitute done that's a different uh question al together but then I I think I will I had already responded to to to that one but the secretariat service on behalf of the speaker is there all the speaker say is uh it's clear because it will be based on the guidelines and to the relevant member of the it is the responses that are referred to the committee. It is the referral that is made to the committee and from then on the interaction the interrogation the re and the follow up is with the between the committee and the minister and the minister can also be called there the committee the speaker is interested in seeing that the committee as per the the the guidelines reports in March and in September to indicate where the system is working, where it's not working, and why it's not working.
But in between, you have the power to really call the ministers to account for things that are not happening and to >> there's a question on my left.
>> Thank you very much. I think I'm I'm I'm building on on the question and the responses you're giving. So look, it's confusing. I understand the secretariat role that will be played by the office of the speaker which of course they've got that capacity and the hindsight and listening to the hindsight and identifying in terms of our guidelines what is an undertaking and listing them down so we have an NA they list them down then you are saying immediately from there the office of the speaker writes letters to the members of the executive to say you've made this undertaking will require you to respond in this number of days. That's where for me a problem starts. A problem starts in this in this h in this h format.
As a committee, we would want to determine the parameters of the for example how do you determine the time frame? So a member of the executive says we are committing to go and um ensure that we create 10,000 jobs.
N now we want to determine okay you've made this undertaking.
Can you in a period of 3 months come back or respond to this committee on how many jobs you've created thus far and that work done by the secretarate that for me is problematic.
I understand a part where the secretarate does compiles based and identifies what is in an undertaking and then does a list and comes to the committee and say here's the list of the undertakes undertakings that were made.
Then the committee says on the undertaking number one this is what we want then we write then you write to the member of the executive but what you write to the what you communicate to the member of the executive is guided unless if you are saying the first interaction is to source an acknowledgment from the member of the executive to say yes I did make an undertaking then that's fine for me that's fine. If that is the first instance, it's fine. And then after they make the acknowledgement, then we start then I'm happy with with that. Then I'm happy with that part.
>> I agree absolutely that that's the general feel is that okay acknowledge you've acknowledge it written to the minister. You've said X, we've noted it.
it's now gone to the committee and we could then say what is a reasonable time by which this particular undertaking they should give us a feedback on so I would be much happier with exactly that sort of system um may we take your in oh sorry was there another question >> the member to go first apologies >> okay I just want to find out in terms of maybe um assist me here Previously for anything to be binding or any decision that the minister or the executive has taken in a committee or in any public platform, the committees had to bring it through the ATC of the National Assembly for it to be enforcable or for the speaker to be able to follow through that was the procedure and now here we are as a committee.
H ministers will make undertakings maybe in an imbe or any undertaking that comes through their um functions and areas of responsibility.
This committee will it not also have to follow the same process to allow it allow the the undertakings to be tabled before the NA and B8 seat so that they can be enforcable or how will the committee enforce its own uh processes in terms of the executive undertakings.
>> Thank you. Before that's answered, could I just ask for clarity? Um the member mentioned an undertaking made during an an imbiza. I don't I thought in the rules it said only an undertaking made in a sitting of the national assembly which of course would include portfolio meetings but but not outside of parliament. That's what I if you could clarify.
Um so firstly honorable members our understanding well the rules say and it's on the floor of the house so we're talking about in the national assembly itself not necessarily in a committee meeting we're talking on the floor of the house and for that reason we were proposing that it's important to look at areas where ministers are most likely to make an undertaking.
which would be you know if you debate a report a committee report more often than not the minister is not part of that but in specific instances of questions the minister has to answer the questions on member statements the min the ministers are responding to the to the members so it is likely in that event that that is where you would get an undertaking and what was saying Mr. Naki was saying um when we are are saying we are proposing an incremental approach to the work we're looking at how to make the work the most effective and that's why we've looked at members statements and questions as a start and the committee can then uh in time say but we want to go broader or we've noticed that there are these undertakings being made in certain debates things like that. So it is it is within the ambit of the committee. The guidelines are within the ambit of the committee. Uh we also want to strongly uh advocate for this committee to have appropriate capacity because for the table yes we we are the secretariat to the national assembly but we have a vast range of functions as well. So this committee does need to be appropriately um capacitated as other committees are with research and with uh uh secretariat support of their own. The part of the reason why we are uh advocating that this goes from the speaker is because this emanates from the house. it. So it gives it that authority when we write initially to the minister because it's something that's emanated from the house. It also closes the loop in terms of responses because you don't want an issue where the response comes in somewhere else and it's not tabled. So the response comes to the speaker, the speaker tables it. So that formalizes it. it's a record of its own in the ATC gets referred to the committee. So to close that feedback loop, we we propose that it starts with the speaker as the honorable member said as a a very basic letter saying this and this was said this is what was the this was the undertaking made. This has been referred to the committee on executive undertakings and petitions for monitoring.
So that that assists um the the tracking mechanism that uh currently it would be manual that would we have but I know my colleagues from ICT are working on something that is also something that the secretariat of this committee could have input onto. So if you receive feedback they you know that you can that that register is something that you can also feed back on and access and see. so that we could put in things if we receive them. So those are all possibilities that we can look at in terms of compliance. I know there was a lot here about compliance. This is also why we we proposing the incremental approach. There are certain mechanisms that the national assembly has developed over time. When it's when it encounters a problem um a delayed responses to questions there is a mechanism developed within the national assembly so that we monitor the response rate to questions and we report on that and that gets published. So depending on what you encounter through your work, you could also advocate for a rulesbased initiative to to look at how do we comply or what mechanisms can we put in place if a minister simply doesn't respond. So you could have something where you would in some instances have a reprimand in the house to ministers for not responding to questions.
that would require rules but it is something that you can consider in future depending on the experience of the committee going going forward into this into this new area. So from from our side this is this is what we would would would propose um and the the rules the rules are available. You also the rules also state that um you are you may submit these guidelines to the subcommittee to the national assembly rules committee and it'll probably go to the subcommittee.
So if you we've given you the proposals as developed by the subcommittee on the national assembly rules for your consideration and if you are of the view that there's other ways that we should do this or other things that we should look at this this can then go back to the rules committee and with your proposed guidelines. So that is provided for in the rules of this of this committee. I can just um read it to you.
Okay. [laughter] Um, in terms of retrospectively starting, I think it might be problematic for us. Uh, we would like an indication as to when you would like to start so that we can also prepare. We're now in a in the budget vote cycle. But if if this committee gives us an indication um because you you know that we always sit at the table. So our un our intention is that we would keep a manual register at the table for when this happens. But this does not mean that your committee secretariat and your researcher should not also be monitoring proceedings or going perhaps and getting the hunad or going to the YouTube and having a look as well in case we miss something. We shouldn't miss something.
We because part of our our mechanisms will actually be not to only rely on the actual team at the table to write it but to go back into the hands and pick up what what was said and see if it was an undertaking. So that is something that we will do administratively from our side.
But if for any reason you know it could be also assist us if your researcher is also especially in the beginning part of that process because if you are going to develop something like the list of uh expressions that constitute a undertaking it might assist you to to have have looked at what what what came out of of those sittings and how was it phrased.
uh because it's not always going to be as clear-cut as I undertake too. So there might be, you know, uh other other phrases and other things that might constitute an executive undertaking. So from our side, this is what we are proposing to begin with on this on this item. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Obviously, we need to do and expect what is possible and not say, well, we want the moon, but you're not going to deliver. So I understand the that perhaps we do have to do as you're asking. I'm very relieved to hear that that we could actually ask for a formal reprimand in the house where the minister must stand up in the house and explain themselves and also that we can we can certainly report to the house more than twice a year. So if we're having a particular problem with a particular minister who's not responding at all um we can actually go to the house and raise it there. So, I think that that gives us some teeth. Um, which I'm very happy about. Um, according to staff, we were told I was told we would have four staff and right now we have one. And I hear from her, she's an acting staff member. So, things are very fluid at the moment in terms of a researcher and content advisor etc. But, but I'm assured over and over that they are working on that. So once we have a full team we will do exactly as you've suggested. Um >> sorry just to >> I don't know what's happening So, >> okay. Are we happy with that presentation? Shall we move on to the petitions one, please? Thank you.
>> Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
And good evening honorable members.
Uh maybe I should start by indicating that the the National Assembly has been receiving petitions and what we call answerist submissions for for a long time now including the past 13 years.
uh as recently as last week Thursday, the National Initial Assembly considered two pet two reports from the portfolio committee on transport on two petitions that had been referred to it and the same happened uh a couple of months ago.
We we keep on um having our portfolio committees considering or maybe tableabling their reports on on petitions from members of the public.
So this this committee is not starting something new. What it is doing or what it seeks to do is to streamline the petitions process so that instead of petitions being referred to all manner of portfolio committees out there, they get referred to one dedicated committee which will specialize on petitions. So uh petitions have always been streaming in and we have always dealt with them.
Now the first thing here that I would like to talk about is the is parliament's petitions framework which came out of the public participation framework which was adopted by the ch by the uh speakers forum in 2013 and which created standards that all legislators had to adhere to in processing or understanding what uh petitions are.
So the national parliament, this parliament of ours, it adopted its own petitions framework in 2024.
And this framework seeks to to ensure that the two houses approach petitions the same way, with the same definition and with the same timelines.
of particular importance in in the framework to this committee is that a petition that comes to a committee must be finalized within 60 days and this 60 days includes tableabling of the report.
So um the framework is is um is divided into two parts.
It deals with the process that starts upon receipt of a petition.
The uh the chair referred to this in a introductory remarks.
She spoke about um what we call a validation phase where a submission will be taken and assessed in in accordance with the rules and the requirements and all that until we say this qualifies as a petition.
And from that point then uh we draft and advise the speaker tables the the petition and refers it to this particular committee.
Now um looks like I'm not going to be very long. So the when this committee receives a petition there are things that it has to do.
These are its functions.
It considers the petition properly submitted to it and within the time frame provided for in the petition's framework.
So properly submitted to it will mean a petition must come from the speaker via the ATC where it is tabled and referred to this committee.
Now, if it refers a petition to a member of the executive no committee decides to send a petition to the member of the executive, it has to direct a person to whom it is referred to consider the petition, make a decision or recommendation in respect of that petition or otherwise dispose of the request or complaint raised in that petition.
It also needs to request a person to whom the petition is referred to finish the committee within a specified period of time of that referral with a detailed report on the steps taken by that person or body to address the complaint to address the request or recommendation or instruction by the committee.
The committee can also refuse to consider the petition but in that case it will have to inform the petitioner of that fact and the reason for his decision not to proceed with the petition.
The committee must finalize a petition within 60 days as I said including recommendations when necessary.
In the event that the committee is unable to finalize within 60 days, it must seek approval of the speaker for an extension and inform the petitioner accordingly.
Now, it can also comment on delays in resolving petitions referred to other stakeholders.
So, what are the powers of the committee in respect of the petitions?
Now the committee will perform its functions in terms of roles applicable to committees generally roles on petitions petitions guidelines these guidelines and the petitions framework. In addition, the committee can recommend that another parliamentary committee investigates a specific problems that it has identified.
If it looks into a petition in an area covered by another committee, it can notify and where appropriate consult the chair or chairs of the relevant committee of committees before it takes any evidence written or oral on the substance of a petition.
It has the power to re to report or make recommendations on the efficacy of the petition system or adequacy of interventions by the executive.
I think this part this this part was conversed very broadly through the questions that members were asking in regard to the um executive undertakings.
Now the committee also has the power to recommend a petition for debate by the house.
The um members may may have um realized as I was speaking that when um a petition goes to it comes to this committee and a report is generated within those 60 days and tabled then in after tableabling that or in that tableabling the rep the um the committee has the power to recommend that this particular committee must be considered by the So that will be all about petitions.
>> Just clarify for me if if the committee is unable to complete within 60 days.
Did you say the condonation has to come from the chair of chairs or the speaker?
>> From the speaker.
>> Speaker.
>> Thanks. Seeing as it is the speaker that refers the petition to the committee.
>> Yeah.
>> Questions.
Yes ma'am.
>> Okay. Firstly, this thing is too loud.
>> Okay. Firstly, can I understand in terms of the budget that this committee will be given for its work?
Because experience tells me that in an event where there's a petition or parliament is petitioned, members of this committee will have to travel to that area and do their own verification or do the work on the ground and then but at times committees are limited based on the budget allocation.
H and experience tells us that also the house chairperson responsible for oversight and committees at times would be the one that does not give um authority for committees to travel.
So that in itself may just hinder the work of this committee in terms of its real tangible work on on the ground rather than working here in the corridors of parliament. That's just for insight. If maybe you can share with us how will this committee's budget be shaped like will it also follow the same 3 million allocation for the normal committees you know or this one because it's a it's a special committee with special functions how will it be resourced thank you >> I if I may answer that I've been informed that we have 3 million rand that's it Um, however, travel I'm told, um, I'm not sure if it's overseas travel or local travel is looked at separately. So, I absolutely agree. If someone comes with a petition about some catastrophe and they've gone through the processes, they've gone to the council, they've gone to the to the legislature and still had no satisfaction, then they come to us and if if needs be, we need to get up and go there and find out what on the ground what the real situation is. I've got no problem with that and using the budget for that, especially if we do a lot of meetings online. Saves us a great deal of budget. So uh that as far as I know is the situation but again hello um you know we have here two staff members who are kind of acting maybe loan to us not sure and we're missing two so we don't have the researcher we don't have the content advisor they keep saying we have a person in mind but I have no people in the room so I'm working on that uh but I agree with you absolutely getting out there looking for ourselves is is absolutely paramount.
Thank you.
>> Please go ahead.
>> Uh so I just wanted to get clarity if I totally understand. So the petitions framework that was adopted in 2024. It also outlines um descriptively um what is the threshold of a petition, what threshold a petition must meet for it to be declared a petition. And I'm asking this because speaking from experience, the office of the speaker earlier on referred what he said is a petition to the basic education portfolio committee and it was about an infrastructure issue in a school in one school. So we dealt with it and we had to go to the school and I went to the office of the speaker and said if that is a threshold for petitions then we are going to be visiting schools every day because we receive a lot of letters about infrastructure challenges in many schools. I did not think that was a threshold to be a petition. I think it's something that the portfolio committee could have simply written to the MEC in that province to say can you address this matter and respond to us.
So I want to know if that framework does descriptively h outline what are the like I think the chair when in her opening remarks tried to highlight some of the the the the factors that must be considered. Uh so I just wanted to check so that we are all clear on when we assess a petition that comes to us, what are we going to be looking at to to declare that a petition or if it is an issue that we should just refer to the executive or just refer to the confer to a specific portfolio committee to deal with.
>> Thanks. Um I I I sense a conflation of two things.
We we have what happens before we decide that this is a petition, right? So in that case we will be using our rules and then we the rules will determine how the petition should come to parliament right and signatures and all that and then the guidelines will then indicate what the petition should be about like things like it should be on a matter that the national assembly is competent to deal with and it should be a matter that has been taken to all available um um like avenue news and the people failed so they come to parame last resort such kind of things so that is what we do by the time this thing gets onto the ATC we have done the validation phase we are sure that this is it reached the threshold then how the committee then decides the process of dealing with this petition whether they want to travel or whether they want to refer this to and and that organ or that person that that is something that the committee decides that is the process the community size it uh from from where I'm sitting it is not a validation issue it is not a threshold issue it is the processing issue by the committee >> thanks no >> okay so now I'm I'm getting you are saying the validation process is done by you >> yes >> okay I'm sorted I'm sorted >> think it would assist if we received copies of those regulations etc that you go through.
>> Yes, we will we will make them available.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> And then we can go through and say okay they've gone through this that I I had an idea that they had to have gone and prove that they've gone through every possible step. We are the last resort.
We're not the first resort. So you know one doesn't want to even you you can't ATC something that hasn't gone through the processes. So that is determined by your office. Am I correct?
>> Yes.
>> So, by the time we receive it that we are satisfied it's gone. They've that petitioner has gone through all the processes. So, we're good to go.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. I think we're happy with that.
>> Yeah.
>> Anyone else?
No. I think if we can move on to the I beg I'm so sorry I didn't see your hand.
>> Thanks. Thanks. Um thank you chair and good evening honorable members. My name is Chili Roman.
[cough and clears throat] I'm I'm the e one of the acting unit managers responsible for this committee.
I wanted to comment on the issue two issues that's the budget as well as the human resource capacity for this committee.
Um one in terms of the budget the the chairperson made mention of 3 million allocated to committees that that was what was allocated to committees last year. This year the process of finalizing budget is not yet concluded but what I can say is that this committee it's just like any other committees of parliament. So if the decision is taken to say that committees will receive 3 million it will be 3 million. If it's four 4 million it will be 4 million. But then what happens is that three or 4 million whatever the amount that will be allocated to individual committees will take care of the work of this this committee including if the committee decides to do uh study tours and things. So the the funds for international travel will still come from that that amount. The consolidated budget uh does not will not cover the the the international travel by this committee. It's a point I wanted to clarify.
The next the another issue of importance is that this committee just like any other committee will have to develop its its program that gets approved by the by the house chairperson and I think the staff allocated this to this committee will assist. Then the next question is the chairperson is correct in saying that and and everybody knows this is a new committee and recruitment process take will take a bit longer and we we do not intend to make it longer than it is necessary but what has happened is that the committee section has identified colleagues who will be assisting the committee one is nomu who's doing um committee assistant work and Porschia who is a standing secretary acting then we have the research unit that has allocated Miss uh Mala who is not here today I'm yet to find out why she is not the po position that we struggling at the moment to find somebody to support the committee with is the content advisor to this committee there are two colleagues that you know we are working on but that's something that I'm not able to commit now but as it stands now you do have three um people that their names are available for for this committee.
Thank you.
>> Thank you very much. I I must admit I've had a number of meetings with the executive as it were um and I have yet to meet or see um our uh researcher who I gathers off with another committee on oversight somewhere. So it is difficult uh thus far but um I have to leave it to you guys. You've got to come up with what a plan that works. Um but but we certainly can't be short staffed as you see. We have a great deal to do.
Um once we get into the swing of things, we will need the the bodies to help us.
Uh we just can't do this on our own. So thank you very much for the input and the sooner we hear from you the better.
Thank you.
>> Yes, please go ahead.
>> Mr. Chairperson, I I omitted to mention that there are already four petitions that were that have been referred to this committee.
>> Certainly. Then then you'd better forward them to us. Thank you, >> chair. I think at uh our last uh uh executive or support staff meeting, I did indicate that there's a correspondence that was received from uh a party to the speaker uh requesting uh that a particular commitment that has been made be followed up. Um the the view taken has always been that uh the committee should not and cannot um be working retrospectively that uh uh it should be looking at its work especially after having had this particular meeting where things have been clarified with regard to the the guidelines. lines. So that uh because if you do retrospectively then you can have a a what is it a deluge of uh um requests that we believe this is a commitment that it should be followed but also to emphasize the point that uh um in the guidelines it's provided that um the determination um once made uh through the speaker and referred to this committee through a process of validation. That's when it's uh uh the work following that commitment will start. But uh the speaker will respond accordingly uh uh to the correspondence with regard to that particular uh request which was prior this particular meeting and process.
>> Thank you.
>> Anything else before we move on to our IT people? No. Please uh if you'd like to do your presentation Okay.
Please just introduce yourself again.
And uh and Uh, good evening members. My name is Mao. Um, I'm from ICT.
Just a moment.
Okay. Thank you very much. Um, so on on this document, this is the the petitions framework. Um, >> please speak to the mic, please. Please speak to the mic, can't you?
>> And um >> I hope I'm that way and then hold it like that. How's that?
>> Thank you.
>> You can shift it over. [clears throat] So this is the the the petition framework that Mr. Myangi has presented. Um this is just a workflow to show um um what happens when we receive a petition. So initially the the petitioner will upload or um submit a petition um through um our website. Um then once we receive the petition we then send [clears throat] an acknowledgement to the petitioner to say uh we have received this petition um and had been referred to to to the committee to look to look at it. Um so then once that is done the the the NA table will then look at the petition um to check for validation. So they'll do the validation checks and once they are satisfied that the um this is a valid uh petition um then they they can either refer it to a committee um if they feel there's not adequate information in in the petition. um they can um request for additional information um of which we will alert the petitioner um um send them an email to request them to upload um additional information.
Um once um the information has been submitted then the committee can still redo sorry the any table can still redo the validation and once they're happy they can um um prefer it to a committee.
Um once the petition is at the committee level um the the committee as well may request for additional information uh in case they they feel there's something that is missing in the petition. Um um if they do that, we send an email to the petitioner. Um once they submit the evidence or the more information um then the committee can then work on on the uh on the petition.
Um once the the committee has worked on the petition as per the the framework um and complete the the work in 60 days um or before then then can adopt um the the report and then schedule it to the the house for for for table and consideration and once that goes to the house then we can have a house resolutions um emanating uh from the house um and that house resolution then gets communicated um to to the petitioner. Um throughout all these um stages the petitioner is is um informed one by email and by SMS uh to make sure that the the petitioner at all times knows um what's happening um with the with their petition.
Um, this is I'm not going to go through all of this, but this is the how the system looks like um that the the the petitioner will will use to launch a petition.
Um, so we've got a a five-step um form where initially the user will put in their petition details or title and specify which house they they want to send the petition to. Um um we understand that at times the petitioner might not know um which house might be best to to deal with with the matter. However, once we receive the the the petition, the the house, sorry, the the table that received it, if it's not meant for that house, they can refer it to the relevant uh table uh to deal with it.
Um the next phase is um where you'll describe the the details of of the the petition, what the complaint is about and what intervention you uh requesting parliament to do.
um for you.
Um next you indicate if whether you're submitting representing an organization or um it's just an individual um and where have you went before coming to to parliament and if you went to an institution [clears throat] um did you get any responses um from those institution and what were those responses then you can upload upload those um if there's any other documentation you want to add as supporting evidence to or information to the petition, you can also upload it there. And and then once you are there, we've got our security option to make sure that um robots don't um uh submit lots of petitions and and um deny our our systems availability. And and then once you do that then the petition then gets um submitted and we then send an email to to the petitioner and then it goes through the the process that I've just outlined earlier on the the petitions framework right um secondly we built a [clears throat] just a a dashboard right where we we show [clears throat] um this is all data but um this will illustrate to what we've received for instance in this instance we've got about nine documents uh which we've got six petitions and three um house resolutions so at any point in time you can be able to filter to say um for this time period how many petitions have you received and down here you can be able to see um either a house res resolution or a petition and the status um where it is. So um this is what we have um currently. So once we the the undertakings framework has been completed and completely defined uh we can be then be able to map out the the stages to say um once the undertaking has been identified. Um then how do we then capture all that information >> and what alerts can we send to to the ministries to remind them to send responses um uh before the the expiry date. So so we can be able to do that once um all of that process um have been defined. Thank you.
>> It looks wonderful.
>> I'm most impressed with that. Thank you very much. Um I think it's excellent.
The alerts obviously must come to the committee as well saying have you written on this date the person undertook to to give you feedback within 3 months. Have you received it? You know we we can't expect a single staff member to to monitor all of this. So if it pops up automatically with your magic system I think that will make our lives a lot easier. But I think it's looking wonderful. Thank you. Any questions?
Yes, ma'am.
>> Okay. Just for my own h clarity in terms of the petitions that are sent between the two houses. Maybe just lift so that we can understand which ones would be because the NOP has already an established committee and then we are starting and then is there a a situation where a petition cut across a for example where the two houses will have to maybe come together and process such if there is something like it and then at times as members of parliament we are abused.
I remember there was some some incident that had to deal with the committee of honorable manil.
The person was just not satisfied with the process and send all of us. Okay.
Sent me because I was in petitions, you know, in ethics, you know, sent me every day complained about a committee that was not looking into their dealings. You know, the person was robbed somewhere in a in a in a be it deal. How then do we cushion ourselves as members of parliament from all these people who are going to because they know that im immediately we the committee starts working parliament system tells them that honorable mubella is serving in that committee and they will be spamming you with all sorts of petitions and information that they would need they want your attention as much as they would have sent the information to the relevant a speaker's office but they also have the tendency of also sending us in the morning evening you know any time of the day depending on their their level of frustrations. How do we get cushioned ourselves as members from those things?
>> I I think that will be very difficult uh to cushion members. Um once and I understand what will happen. It will go through here and they will say this is not acceptable. It it doesn't meet the threshold. We will not accept it as a petition. They will then try it through the back door to all of us saying but but but but some guy says it's not okay but you you'll get it in I'm sure and I understand that but that frankly is what always happens in every committee everywhere. If they don't get an answer that they don't accept they will try every other avenue. So, I'm afraid I I don't know if anyone else has a bright idea of how to pate um unsatisfied citizens, but I fear this is the the nature of the beast. Um if you just say I am forwarding this to the chairperson, then do so and they will get off your back and get onto my back. Um but I don't know if we can firewall MPs. I don't think it's a possibility, I'm afraid. Um, but we'll have to take each one as it comes. And if it becomes abusive, we just block them immediately.
I won't allow anybody to abuse an MP or any public rep. It's unacceptable behavior. Um, best we can do. Anyone else?
Yes sir.
>> Thank you so much, Chair. Um, my name is Naml Kasam. I'm also from ICT. Um there was also another question which was um posed by the member. So I just wanted to try and respond to that. Mr. Mayangi will also assist me um with this one because it was um around if there's a petition that comes in and um maybe the petitioner is not aware in terms of um which um house it falls in and also if this petition maybe um reaches or needs attention of both um houses either the NA or NCO. So um there is an area which also f filters um and also takes a decision where does this petition needs to go to which is once it comes through the system then it's going to go to either the NA table or the NCO um then once it gets there then they get to first decide firstly is it a valid petition that we've received and then also then where does this petition needs to go then from that perspective before then it reaches is um the this committee it has already gone through that filter to ensure that it is the right petition and it's referred to the right committee.
>> Thank you. May I just ask in terms of the four petitions that you say you already have for the National Assembly?
When did they arrive? What are the deadlines? Has have they been around a long time, etc. I think we need to know that as a committee. I don't want to fall foul of the 60-day limit at this stage on our very first moment. Please fill us in.
>> Um chairperson um our turnaround time at the NA table is seven working days but normally with petitions we as soon as they are approved by the speaker because they need to be tabled under her name they approved the tableing is approved and the referer we refer them immediately.
Right.
uh we we trust that our colleagues in the committee section will go through each ATC every morning because that's that's how they get to see what business has been referred to their committee.
So, so I wouldn't know if people who are operational in this committee from the committee section are aware of this. But then I know that I I personally put about four the last one I think it was today. Four petitions to this committee.
Yeah. Thanks.
>> We'll have to attend to those. Thank you. First I've heard of it. But we'll we'll pick it up quickly, I assure you.
Anyone else have a question for our our uh experts in the field? No.
[clears throat] Well, then let me just say good night. Thank you very much for staying. I know we started very early, which means we've ended very early. Um, thank you all for attending at this literally last moment uh exercise, but I think we it's given us a good idea of what we have to tackle going forward. Um it's very difficult until we get the full staff contingent to move forward.
But we will have to look at the petitions that I gather have now been lodged. Um and the last thing we need to do is to try and determine when we can meet because I know full well many of you meet on a Tuesday morning, many of you meet on a Wednesday morning. Um and that basically leaves us two options.
That will be a Friday morning or it will be an evening meeting. I doubt many of you do what I do and start things at 5 in the morning.
So those are our options. So what I would like you to do if you wouldn't mind is put on the group. You don't have to do it now. Put on the group I I'm available on this day. Um be it a Wednesday morning, be it a Friday, whatever. Because we have to determine a day when everyone is available. Um, as I said to you earlier, we'll try and do as many online meetings as possible. I gather even the sittings going forward are all going to be online um so for the rest of the term. So, we'll do as much as we can online. Um, but if it comes to to having to read through copious huge documents, we'll have to do it in person. Um but if you just give us an indication of when you're available u put it on the group and then we'll start distilling and come up with a day when the majority of us are available. I hope that suits. Yeah. So there's food outside, tea outside, whatever. Please help yourselves. I'm sorry the meeting was inside out and back to front, but that's what happens when members of parliament walk out of the house. So thank you very much and uh we will chat to you soon. Thank you for all your input and to the to the brain trust that came here and and gave us all this information. Thank you so so so much. It was enormously helpful and I'm sure we'll put many more questions straight to you to answer in in the future. Thank you very much.
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