Science fiction is fundamentally defined by cognitive estrangement—using scientific or rational innovations to create alternate worlds that allow readers to view their own reality through a new critical perspective. The Culture series by Iain M. Banks exemplifies this by presenting a utopian post-scarcity society of humanoid aliens and AIs, yet its seventh book 'Inversions' deliberately obscures its science fiction elements by being written from the perspective of characters on a medieval planet who are unaware of the Culture's intervention. This demonstrates that science fiction is not defined by spaceships or lasers, but by the underlying speculative elements and the questions they raise about society, ethics, and human nature.
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And I believe we do be live.
>> Awesome.
>> So, hello. Welcome to a wonderful chat with my wonderful sci-fi buddy read friends. You will have seen us all over on Richard's channel at VintageSf.
But these are special circumstances today as we are talking about about a culture book which is obviously an area that I am super interested in being Ian Banks being my favorite author of all time and the culture being my favorite sci-fi series of all time. So they volunteered me to host this live and thankfully I had Richard to help me last week. um baby me into being able to do live streams. So, here we are. So, I think we may as well just start like I'm sure everybody knows you guys.
Um sorry, one sec. Oh, something's going on.
>> It's good to be live.
>> That's not right. That's not right either. Okay, we're good. We're good.
So, please can you introduce yourselves?
Like I'm sure everybody knows who you are, but just in case somebody has subscribed to me and for some reason not you guys, then it'll be good for them to know who you are. So maybe we can just go uh clockwise. So start with Whitney.
>> Right. So I'm Whitney. I'm from Secret Sauce of Storycraft. Um what else do you want to know? I do a lot of Hugo videos.
I'm almost done with my Hugo videos.
You are uh exclusively sci-fi on your channel.
>> I am. I I have a couple of videos on fantasy, specifically nollas, but mostly sci-fi. Yep.
>> Cool. Yep. That's the expert on Hugos right there. Anything you want to know about the Hugo Awards, >> go to her channel.
>> And the sickest editing you'll ever see.
>> Oh, guys.
>> Uh so, Richard, next.
>> I'm Richard. from Vintage SF. That's science fiction. Someone said today because I happen to be reviewing a fantasy novel that it's secretly fantasy is what it stood for.
>> Uh I thought that was a little bit clever. Um so, uh I'm excited to be here live and I love just uh doing buddy reads together with these guys and talking a lot about the science fiction or is it science fiction of some of these books.
and Mr. Bart.
>> Hello. Hello. So, I second what Richard just said about the buddy reads. My uh favorite part of the whole experience is talking with you guys and also with everyone in the comments. Uh so connecting is the reason I'm here. And uh I will say if you're not subscribed to my channel but you are subscribed to Sam, probably waste the time to subscribing to me because we have exactly the same reading taste. Like if Sam likes something, I will like it too.
We have found this to be true again and again. So um yeah, I'm here just like a imitating Sam, I guess.
>> Uh maybe I'm imitating you. You were here first after all, >> both on the on the planet and on YouTube.
>> So I'm, you know, I'm copying you >> certainly on the planet.
>> You know, thankfully thankfully we do we don't read exactly the same books all the time. So, that is both reason to be subscribed to both of our channels, but also it's fun because we can watch each other's videos and we basically know how we're going to feel about the books. It's very handy. It's very handy.
>> So, you're secretly the same person. Got it.
>> Pretty much. Yeah, >> pretty much.
>> By the way, something I learned recently from the other person that we have in buddy read, his name is Dale. um he does something regularly with our channel and I didn't know a lot about that until about a week or so ago or maybe a couple weeks. And so if you're watching this video afterwards, be sure to hype it. Uh that's going to help uh views get to Sam uh that way. And it works. Uh there's more hype points which supposedly will get in front of more viewers uh for the smaller a channel is. Now, I know that Sam's growing. Uh, you topped 2,000 just recently, didn't you?
>> Oh, yeah.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> I'm basically famous now, >> but I'm pushing that you like, hype, and subscribe and and uh hey, if you watch us live, we'd love for you to say hello.
>> Absolutely. Yeah, please do comment if you are watching on anything we're saying or just say hi. Let us know where you are in the world. Obviously, this timing is a little bit weird for some people. Uh, I'm the awkward one here living in Europe while the rest of these guys live in the US or Canada. So, it's like midafter afternoon on a Thursday.
So, understandable if not many people are here, but say hi and say where you're from. That would be awesome.
Um, so we might as well get talking. I first wanted to bring up the culture because I think this book in the culture is quite unique within the culture. So I think it's important to have some kind of context around uh what the culture is so we can kind of discuss that in both non-spoiler and spoiler ways as to how this book is different and important.
>> That makes sense, right? It does make sense. Yeah.
>> So, do I have any volunteers who want to talk about the culture? Hey, Dale's here.
>> Yay.
We just speak of the devil. Here he is.
>> Hello, Dale. Nice to see you. So, if anybody wants to volunteer anything about the culture, go ahead.
>> So, uh maybe I'll I'll say I really like the culture books. I've read seven of them now. Uh I'm not sure how many Whitney has read. I know you some have finished all of them. Um, but three for Richard. And what about you, Whitney?
Are you up to eight?
>> I I don't know. I only have three left.
So, >> okay. So, like me, so seven. So, we're we're even Stephen on that. Uh it's basically then in broadstrokes culture is kind of this utopian post scarcity uh society of humanoid aliens and also artificial constructs uh AIs that are supremely intelligent that coexist together in perfect peace like I said post scarcity so anyone can pretty much do anything that they want there is very little in a way of like law enforcement within it people live their best lives uh they usually live their their planets, but most of most people live on these ginormous artifacts in space. Um, sometimes on huge ships that are incredible. The fun thing about reading culture books is to me that each book is unique uh is different uh from from the other ones. Uh and and this one this one certainly is the one we're going to talk about. But that's culture, you know, humanoid post scarcity utopian kind of socialist. Um, fun in space.
>> Whilst we've got you talking, but there's a question here in the chat.
>> Well, there was Ira who Ira started for two years. He wore a freaking hat every day and then >> and then he dropped it. So, I don't know. Like, you got to have See, I live in Colorado and it's sunny here over 300 days out of the year and I'm bald. So, I have pretty much all the time uh including indoors.
But yeah, I have a nice collection of hats. Somebody in the comments suggested I do a video just showing my hats, and that would probably do better than any of my science fiction videos.
>> Probably.
>> I'm not going to lie, I would be very interested in that video.
>> I do a sequel of >> you could do a sequel of your t-shirts and your sweatshirts as well.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I have some, you know, I have some hats that maybe even are worth something. I don't I have like a New York Giants uh Super Bowl winning from 1989, I believe. I don't know which Super Bowl that would be, but they're they're winning. So, I have some some nice ones. Maybe I'll do that video.
>> It was uh probably over a year of knowing you until I actually saw Under the Hat.
>> You wear hats.
>> That should be the name of the video.
>> That's great. That's genius. Oh my gosh.
It's good. It's good to have something that makes you stand out, I suppose.
>> Good evening. The Bionicle fan.
>> Bionicle fan. Isn't that a toy and a series as well? Bionicles.
>> Yeah.
>> Any more thoughts >> on the culture? Yeah. But just by the way, when you touch your camera, it's very noisy, just so you know.
>> Oh, sorry about that. No stress. Any more thoughts about the culture?
>> They seem to come into contact with a lot I mean I've looked at three novels.
Each novel has been come into contact with another planet which is not um in alignment with the culture and their values. and they seem to have uh a motive of trying to alter planet's destinies to more align with the cultures values.
>> Well, I was going to say this this comes up later, but unlike other sci-fi series, never does it just kind of tell you out and out what the culture is.
Banks leaves it to you to sort of experience it as you go along, which I think is very unique. I really do like that. Um, but it's not something that's like really difficult to figure out. You just get a little different um, like bits and pieces as you go along. I also think that there's a very similar theme in most of the books that is actually in this book maybe more overtly than all of the other books. Um, that I think makes it such a good culture book. So, we'll have to get to that too when we're talking about it. Yeah, it's interesting point you bring up because this series is about it is called the culture, right? But most of the books are really looking at things outside of the culture or on the fringes of the culture. We never really get stories about people just living their lives on a ship, right? It's never it's never about that. is about some kind of outside context that you know Richard was saying that they're kind of trying to bring them into the fold or something along those lines. So they they outwardly show themselves as this benev benevolent >> uh society that helps other societies increase their like level of technology or access to resources or whatever to be able to um potentially either lift them up or bring them into the culture and incorporate them within. So that's a lot to do. Sometimes they even decide that these societies aren't ready yet and they leave them for a while and they say we'll come back here or we'll just ignore them and leave them to see if they come um back themselves. So that is where a lot of the stories lie.
>> Uh somebody somebody has a question for you in the comments.
>> Yeah, it's a good question.
>> Did Banks name the series Culture from the first book? Uh I honestly don't know. Um, >> based on >> maybe somebody watching those, they can tell us.
>> Based off of uh a quick Google search, it says yes, the first novel was considered going to be part of his series. And it doesn't say whether he named it on on the first book or um when the second book was written.
>> Yeah. I mean, certainly um certainly the society, the culture existed in that book, right? Even though it's somewhat of a prequel in a way or as in it's not set quite at the same time as the later books and from a different perspective >> consider Fleas takes place dur during the the war II war I think it is and it's it's before most of our books and and it's interesting again you know with the with >> with Banks um each culture novel is distinct and he does these stylistic experiments also which is evident uh in a couple of the book's use of weapons a great example but so is the one we'll talk about today but so is consider fiba starting a series about culture with a book uh that is set outside of it with someone who is actively fighting against the culture with that perspective is a very unique choice uh and I think I think also that's why some people may say that it's not the best book to start even though it's book one consider many will argue that it's not including Sam I think that it's not the best book perhaps to to introduce the culture society because of the fact that it's maybe not the strongest but also it's not uh looking at the culture directly.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, and and based off of what this you know quick AI Google search is telling us because you know I believe the internet every time, right? Um, but it it does say that um it looks like he he kind of formed the culture almost in the way that Brandon Sanderson formed the cosmir in that it was a particular universe that he was writing in and not necessarily a considered series because there is no um consistent characters throughout the series or the stories which is why a lot of people say you can start in lots of different places but there are some places where you should definitely start and some places where you shouldn't. And I also think that makes it a particularly unique series because a lot of those people out there who are diehard publication order might continue to not actually gain anything from um reading them in that order. And if anything, I would argue that you might even have um a harder time getting into the culture series because if your first taste of the culture is considered Fleebus and you don't like it because you think that's what the rest of the culture is going to be, then you may not read a series that you might actually have loved because that first book was so different than the rest. Um, and that's my that's my like 10 cents on the culture because if I had started with consider Flee, I would not have continued.
>> Yeah. I mean, you both brought up things that I wanted to say or make sure were said in that this series is not like a normal series.
Like you did air quotes when you said series because it isn't a traditional series in the way that the story carries on from each other. The culture is so big. It's like galaxy spanning that the whole point of that is you can't possibly look at all of it. Do you know what I mean? Because it's so big. So these books take little sections that um are kind of big events within this society's history and looks at those.
And so they're not really connected.
They're only connected by the fact that they are within the culture. Like you say, there's no continuing characters.
There is actually one continuing character. Um there's a character in state-of-the-art that is in another book that we have uh all read actually. So that but that's the only one. And the only other things like later in the series they there are references to the events that happen in book five but they don't affect anything in those books and also the Ider war is always referenced as well and those are the only linking things. So they are kind of standalones in a way as well and that's why this question happens of where do you start and it's it's a tricky question starting with book one um if someone was to say should I start with book one I would say it's not the best place to start but you can but just be aware that it is very different to everything else and it you may not love it so Don't make your judgments from book one. It's hard.
>> If I remember correctly, Bart, didn't you start with it?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Exactly. That's why I was just quietly raising my finger like, "Yeah, no, no, it could be." It worked for me.
Uh I liked consider Flebas. I was looking forward to reading culture for for some time when I finally got to it.
Uh it was I was should I start with Player of Games, which I think most people I think the consensus might be that that's the book to start with. Uh or should Yeah. And you you did that Richard as well, but I've heard it from many people. I think Whitney would also agree that that's a good start and I agree as well having read it. But I did end up starting with Consider Fleet and I really liked it. Now having read more of the books, I do see that it's not as interesting stylistically. It's not as well written, but I actually liked the action. It was uneven, but there was a lot of crazy stuff happening uh in that book. Um gruesome moments, funny moments. Um, and to me it was a fantastic introduction to the culture because I was more excited uh to to to to continue the series after having read Consider Fleas. So it worked for me. But now having read seven books, I would probably say also like you just mentioned that because it does feel a little bit different and it approaches the culture kind of from the side uh that it not that it's definitely not the place where I would recommend uh starting but it worked for me. And Dale thinks I should uh recommend an order um because I suggested on the buddy read that you should read some Sorry, something's happening on my computer.
Gone. Um yeah, so I would say honestly you can't go wrong with reading either player of games or use of weapons first. And I would just say read those two first and from there you can basically go anywhere. That's how I would recommend it.
>> Would you agree?
>> I would say I would say this book I would keep this book off after you've read a few almost, you know. I think I think it would I would not say you could go anywhere after you read Player of Games. I would say anywhere but inversions. I think inversions like once you've been kind of soaked in the culture excuse me for a few books maybe like Richard at least you know three books uh in um wait have you read three or you read three with this one >> three including this one >> you gave me that recommendation to start with either player of games or um use of weapons I'm actually really happy I started with player of games because I think that that actually was >> a better introduction to the culture for the first a third of the novel or so before they went off to a planet. Uh and use of weapons is a structural experiment in terms of how the story is told. So I' not I would prefer if I was recommending that people look at player of games first. Now those are the only three I've read within version. So I don't know about the other ones. I agree. The use of weapons is maybe a little bit too experimental and may put some people off. Uh and that is the most experimental in structure. So if people read that first, maybe they'll expecting that kind of experimentation later, but it's not like that. He experiments with every book. Every book is unique, but not quite as drastic as that. But what I meant before, Bart, was I think you should read those two and then go on. I think you like like Richard has done, you could read those two >> and then go in any order.
>> I honestly don't think that you have to read Use of Weapons before you read Inversions. I think if you read any of the others, like I read Hydrogen Sonata, I think we read uh Look to Winward, I think all of those would be just as good. As a matter of fact, um I know a couple people who um have asked me some questions about it and they wanted to save uh use of weapons as the last book because they they heard it was the best.
So they wanted to save it, you know, to to savor it at the end. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
No.
>> Um if that's what they're looking for.
So >> uh that's kind of why I intentionally didn't read Excession with Bart because I am trying to save it for the end.
Excession is an interesting book. It's it's it's not my favorite. It was great read. I'm gonna have to reread it and probably soon. It was a bit of a tougher read. It's interesting because you go excession and then in order inversion is right after that and it's like a different author wrote these books. It is really mind-boggling that the same author could have wrote a book um that is so um different. I mean so is this one in a way. We'll talk about it soon.
Uh that yeah that from one to the other.
What a 180. Yeah.
>> Mhm.
>> This is why I love the guy. He is really he he has such range but excession is probably the most challenging read I would say out of them. Um quick question for Bart and Whitney because I know you've read it. Would you say for example you could start at Look to Winwood?
>> Yeah, >> I think you could. I think you could. I I think yeah I think you could.
>> Yeah, I kind of think you could as well.
>> I think for the reasons that we mentioned I think maybe and and I think Richard brought up I think maybe even look to windward uh is maybe a better choice than use of weapons as the first book because use of weapon is so structurally challenging. Uh but use of weapons I think is a good book to read prior to inversions because use of weapons kind of revolves around special circumstances. uh these agents so uh quite heavily. So it kind of and informs a lot about what happens kind of what's hidden in this book, what we don't hear in this book, but it's hidden behind a veil. Um so it's very interesting. Yep.
>> Well, I'm going to be interested to see what the other books bring because as it stands right now and me not knowing those last three books, which is Accession, Surface Detail, and Matter, those are the three I haven't read. I would almost recommend Inversions for the last book just because um I think it finalizes the theme of of this of the series very well. Um but then it also does so inverted and lots of hints. So I I would so far I mean I might change my mind. We'll see what the other books bring. But I would almost consider this one as a really good end to the series for people who like love it, you know, than than something to start.
>> Got a few comments I want to highlight.
I only read the first book. Consider Fle and I guess the bad ending let me down so much as to not bother reading another in this series. Mhm.
>> Uh, understandable, but I would say give another book a go because it it is they are very different to that one. I would definitely recommend player of games next >> before you pass the final judgment.
Then here, not read any culture yet. I read Fearsome Engine in February.
Enjoyed it a lot. Going to read The Bridge by Bank soon. Apparently, there's a blink and you miss it. Reference to the culture. So, um, I don't think any of us have read Fearsome Engine yet, and we're talking about >> potentially doing it as a buddy read, which would be cool.
>> Um, and I also like that you brought up uh, The Bridge. I haven't read that, but it's one of his non-ci-fi works, what he called uh, There's Fearsome Engine, Beautiful Coffee. Um, what he called his mainstream fiction. So he's got 14 of those as well and they are all equally or at least I've read six of them. One was a a dud. The rest were all equally brilliant and all equally different. So I do recommend to those people who read outside of sci-fi as well.
>> So >> can I ask you a question before we continue, Sam? Because you mentioned at the beginning of the live you said that Ian Banks is your favorite author period. Right.
>> Yeah. But but but you said culture is your favorite science fiction series.
>> Yeah.
>> So your fa your favorite author but not necessarily favorite series.
>> Uh is is Wheel of Time. Is that it? Is that your favorite overall?
>> It's still there as my favorite. Yeah.
But it's it's close. I mean >> it shouldn't be.
>> They're both your children.
>> Yeah. Wheel of Time just has such an important place in my reading journey, in my heart, and I do still think it's a fantastic series. Even with its flaws, I still love it. So I But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, right? I only really kind of made that list for YouTube, my first ever video, and oh, >> it could flip any day really. It doesn't really matter. I love them both, and that's what matters.
Bridge is certainly speculative. It's not fully SF. Okay. Hm. Interesting.
>> Ah, by the way, David Pringles, both 100 modern fantasy and also the one that he did on science fiction, those are great lists if you're looking for books to read in those categories in those genres.
>> Nice. Uh, recommendations, by the way, if anybody's interested for his non-cifi, The Wasp Factory is his most famous really tiny book. abs. It's It's >> They do.
>> I I trigger warnings. It's uh pretty pretty gnarly. Uh but it's fantastic.
What mindblowing ending and I would say The Crow Road as well, which is like kind of like a family drama almost uh revolving around the death of somebody and there's uh suspicious circumstances.
>> What's What's the What's the dud? It's called Canal Dreams.
>> Oh yeah. Uh you can you can skip that one. I I did that for you. You can skip that one. Uh so shall we talk about in versions?
>> Book number six in the culture.
>> Have a nice copy.
>> You've got three different covers. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I am going to uh return the favor now.
and say, "Richard, would you like to describe what this book is about?"
>> Ah, did I do that to you last time?
>> Good stuff. Well, you know what? This book is about a planet, but we really don't get off this planet or we don't even see it really as a planet. We just see as more um a land and ocean and other nations. And this is set I would call it the the the time period feels like a more of a medieval middle ages type empires of kingdoms. Uh and we have two protagonists and the chapters alternate between these protagonists.
There's the doctor. This is a female character and the story is told by her apprentice or servant. Um starts with a prologue by that uh apprentice servant by himself. Olaf um Ol. It's a tough one to pronounce. O E L P I think it is Ol.
And then it goes into that alternating structure. The second story apparently came to Ulf um either in journals or other forms and he puts it together with the doctor's story. So the doctor has a story where u she is in a kingdom and she has to she's attending to people.
Sometimes she has to go to a torture chamber to attend to a person there. But her ultimate responsibility is to the king himself. and she she's got this special relationship with the king. On the other side, we have um the oh, what was his name?
>> The bodyguard. The bodyguard. And once again, it's a connection with a king, >> but more so really with the king's son and one of the uh um king's concubines, I guess you could say, or part of his herum. And we see these two kingdoms and we contrast these two characters in the way that they care for but influence also the people within these kingdoms. And the suspicion is there and it's fairly well confirmed that they're both people from offplanet that they're from uh the culture and that they are potentially agents of the culture on the planet. And so we have the suggestion that they are trying to influence and form uh each of these kingdoms in ways that could move in what would be considered positive directions.
But it's very tenuous and we do not actually really get science fiction elements except for a couple mysterious things that seem to happen around each of them. uh primarily around the doctor that if you've read other culture books, you're pretty sure you understand what's going on. And so the contrast between the two and how they deal with influencing the kingdoms and the people in there and wonderful characters well drawn out um and how they start to care for people that they are influencing and care. There's a particular really poignant uh relationship between the older doctor and the younger uh Olaf Olaf and um how they care about each other too and grow closer. And because Olaf is telling the story, it really begins bring together uh towards the end uh some thoughts in terms of relationships and how that works. I think I should leave it there if we're not going to do spoilers at this point. Great.
>> Well, round of applause.
>> Perfect explanation. Would you like to add anything to that?
>> Uh, yes, maybe. Maybe. just uh I think Richard described the book perfectly laid out uh the story of these two. It's a I mean overall it's a very character-driven I think that needs to be said. It's a character-driven right.
>> I love trying to corral the humans. Yeah.
>> Well, where was I? Uh, character-driven, right? So, it's a character-driven uh narrative, and it focuses on this this idea of uh of influence of kind of advanced agents in a medieval world, and there's a lot of politics, a lot of a power struggle as well. Um, and and I think I think the interesting thing in this book is just the way you look at those science fiction elements. So, Richard mentioned that they're um you know, they're non-existent or very tenuous, I think was the word that Richard used. I would say the way I read this book, they were overt to me. They were apparent to me. They just weren't apparent to the guy who was writing the book, but to me, there was science fiction everywhere.
uh not everywhere of course I'm exaggerating a bit uh being dramatic but all the actions that pertain to these two people the war and Dr. vessel. Um they're aliens on this planet. So everything that they did uh the ways in which uh they got rid of people, there's there's definitely a mystery also in this book. Uh it's fantastic. And I think the interesting thing is if I I imagine someone if someone just picked this book up randomly like a beach read, has not read any science fiction before, has never heard of culture, they could finish this whole book and not realize what's going on, right? not realize anything about special circumstances agents. There's not a single mention of culture in this book. But we with the knowledge we have, this is the fun thing about reading this book. I was reading it as a science fiction novel with great fun trying to figure out how was it how some of these things were done. Uh whereas our author of this of this book um has no clue. So we have we have more knowledge about what is going on than the again the author who's writing this book uh on this medieval world. And I think those reveals were fantastic and to me this was very much a science fiction book.
>> Yeah, it's a good point you make because this is why you absolutely cannot read this. Well, you can read it but there's no point in reading this book >> if you've not if you don't have the context of what the culture is. And I think that's why uh our friend Dale may have struggled with it as well because if he'd maybe read a couple, he would um be excited like us to find out what these connections are. Um, >> I would also say that >> the if I was reading this and hadn't read any other book in the culture and perhaps didn't even know it was science fiction, although by the the book itself, the delivery of the book, I should know.
There's a couple sort of mysterious things that happen that don't get explained that I really wouldn't, you know, I'd be scratching my head. How did that work?
uh a mystery that sort of um behind the scenes we kind of figure out how that would happen if we've read other books.
You really don't get well explained here in terms of a certain murder.
And so, um I really do feel as you were saying that at least one other culture book perhaps under your belt would be very useful before you hit this one.
>> Yeah. Uh, we'll get to that soon, Dale.
>> Yeah, there we go. Good job.
>> It's It's interesting because um I kind of wish Dale had stuck it out because I would have loved to have heard his reactions to those sections. Do you know what I mean? Like, >> yes.
>> And and the whole dynamic of the body read might have changed because we might have had to kind of keep our mouth shut a little bit. Do you know what I mean?
It's kind of not >> explain explain a little bit more about what is going on behind the scenes. What is going on >> that the author again in quotations of this text does not realize is happening.
>> It's fascinating. I I don't know if you guys have read anything that sets up a situation in this way where the where we are reading a book writt that's that's easy. Well, I haven't read it yet. Um, okay.
But but is it is it is it done the same way where where it's like where the >> It's It's even worse. It's even worse.
You're going to love it, Bart, because I really don't like it.
>> But we we both like this.
>> I know. I know. But I'm just saying that um I think I think Banks does it better than Gene Wolf, which I realize is going to get me crucified on the internet very >> that's fine by me. That's fine by me.
I've not read it either, but that's fine by me. You can say that all you like.
Dale brings up a good point here, though. There may be some triggers to this book that may uh that some may not like as well. It's pretty pretty rough from the start. Um you have scenes of torture from the very beginning. uh you well you don't >> you you have scenes of the resulture becoming post torture right so yeah but there are definite but but like I think we've talked about this there are many books that I think are more gruesome than this one um I just read tender is the flesh and Dale stay away from that book tender is the flesh is so difficult beginning till the last last sentence in that book.
So, yeah, this was mild in comparison, >> but I would say Banks doesn't shy away from uh nastiness.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, in in Dale's defense, I will say the first couple of chapters of this book were incredibly negative. They were incredibly focused on suffering, especially that of children and injustice of what's happening in the planet. It looks to me like he was trying to establish that this is a very primitive culture and this is what a world would look like without culture if you know what I'm saying. Like wink wink, right? So I do think that um he's he's making you like kind of disgusted and unhappy with this world and this situation from the get-go on purpose, but again without the context of what the culture does and the questions that it asks. That's why I think this book is better for significantly later in the series.
>> Sure. It's definitely about the abuse of people physically, mentally, and and uh sexually that is set up as what they are trying to move or influence or change these societies forward or away from these trying to say this, you know, is torture really necessary? Um, is it actually doing what you think it's doing? Uh, and it's, uh, yeah, so subtle suggestions pushing it away from these these practices. It's almost a light spoiler to say, so close your ears, I guess, but I don't really think it matters, that the doctor, there's evidence of her kind of changing things for the good because she has a conversation with the king about torture and its efficacy and how it isn't effective. um it's it's a pointless tool and people will just say anything when they're under torture to make you hear what you want and which may not be the truth. Then later something happens where the king could have easily put people under the screws um but he doesn't because he says he even like it's quoted that he says nothing more would have been learned.
So, it's these kind of like really subtle um pieces of influence that these people are trying to do rather than like saying, "Oh, look, here's a drone. Look what I look what I've got. Look what my society can do." Cuz they're not ready for it. They need to gradually build them up to this kind of level. So there's these levels of complexity within the culture where maybe a society is further along and they have some kind of robots or some kind of space travel or anything and they be like well you're doing pretty well but have you seen this? And they that can be a lot more overt then. But they in this culture, this society, they have to be a lot more nuanced with their influence and say, "Have you thought about thinking about things this way? That that might that might change the society for the better?" Because there's other subtle little ways that she managed to change the king's mind. And that was the the kind of genius of it, I think. And the nuance also was because it was a female doctor that they're not used to respecting a female in a position of authority of any sort. And so that took a lot of convincing for many people within the book as well. And the king was kind of unusual in that he had great respect for her. I think that she'd earned though through her her uh practice and through her actions.
>> Yeah, there's a really good point.
There's a especially with uh not even say I think even in both sides there are a lot of um explorations of this kind of medieval misogyny I guess I don't know what you'd call it like this kind of ridiculousness that people used to think about women like there's and also in the bodyguards story a lot of what women go through Well, and I would almost describe it as just an immature society, right? Yeah.
In the same way that we kind of view our middle ages as immature and we we hadn't gone through the social, cultural, and civil revolutions that we have today.
Which is why sometimes looking at those older vintage science fiction books, especially those that were written before we went through those revolutions, you can forgive some of the things that were written that you cannot forgive if it was written today, >> right?
>> Um and and he does it in a very nuanced way. And I think the nice thing is it wasn't overly detailed in this story and it wasn't um it was all done for a very specific purpose to try to compare and contrast the cultures influence and why they are trying to influence those societies around them.
>> Yeah.
>> And go ahead. I just wanted to jump in with that that Banks has to establish uh the darkness in this society uh and torture being one of them in order to then show how these culture agents are trying to sadly and softly uh affect change.
>> Well, and that brings us Oh, go ahead.
>> Go on. No, go ahead, please.
>> Well, I was just going to say and that brings us to maybe a good time to bring up this theme that we keep hinting about.
>> Brilliant. Okay.
>> So, I'm actually gonna bring up uh Dale's comment here. I would say I have a certain criteria for a book being sci-fi that probably wouldn't be met by this book.
>> So, uh, is this book sci-fi?
>> It's 100% sci-fi. It's more sci-fi than so many other sci-fi books in my opinion. You know, I mean, we treat all dystopian books as sci-fi. If if a book takes place on Earth 20 years from now, it's considered sci-fi. And no one argues with that. This takes place on a completely different planet with alien humanoid. But not the this isn't Earth.
They're not humans. Uh and then we have a two special circumstances agents on that planet infiltrating and affecting change through the use of with use of incredible advanced technologies throughout. Um so yeah they if you continued I think you would have met had a little bit of a maybe better perspective on whether this is science fiction but to me it's I mean it's part of the culture. It's taking place on another planet. Uh, and yeah, it was a very interesting science fiction book.
Like I said, I haven't read Book of the New Sun, and I know that's a little bit different. Takes place, you know, kind of in a regressed society. This is a much different setup, but this is not only science fiction, but it's also unique in the way it's done. So, for me, it's 100% science fiction. No argument.
>> So, as as always, Bart, as always, >> I will disagree. I it's not that I'm arguing that this is not science fiction because I want to be very clear. I think it is.
>> Okay.
>> But but I don't think it's very clear or obvious because I do think >> culture book.
>> Well, I I do think that if it wasn't listed as a culture book. I do think that if you had to read these subtle clues without the hints of the surrounding books around it, I think it would I it would be such a harder book for for me to >> we're we're in agreement 100. I think maybe you left what I said earlier if someone had hasn't read any culture books previously and just picked this up as a beach read, they they they wouldn't know what they're reading. But if you're reading this as part of the broader uh spectrum of culture books and understand that this is within the culture u society and this is what they do and now you're getting a book as an example of these agents infiltrating but it's written from the perspective of someone on that planet who doesn't know. It's fascinating. It's I think I think it's a I I mean I really like this book more than I expected actually. Well, I I will also second that I really did like this book and I I really do think that Banks does a better job. I know I'm going to be crucified. You're you're it's going to be a problem, but then Gene Wolf does because th these books require multiple rereads. This is not a spoiler. They require multiple rereads and even then you still have to have people who are experts in the field tell you what's happening. Like honestly, it's it's that difficult to try to figure out because you're supposed to figure out based off of a single sentence. Like, oh, this this gentleman um touched his wrist in a certain way in this particular scene and that means he's an android. And you're like, what? Convince me harder. I'm sorry. Say what? Like I So, I think you know the fun of these books is that I don't think anybody gets it the first, second, or third time without being told. Whereas, I think that Banks puts enough hints in there that we could figure it out as a group without having a second or third or fourth reread. We didn't have to go look things up on the internet. There were enough clues for us to figure it out.
>> But is it science? But is it science fiction? If you have to have read something else before you read it, >> uh, that's where I I kind of almost wonder about it. I I I do agree that it is science fiction but um the requirement and it's not stated anywhere. We've talked about how you could start anywhere in the culture.
You would come across this story and you just you know you would say this is something like um a Lord of the Rings fantasy land. There's no dragons or anything like that and it's more realistic. It's a medieval type story, but it's a f a fantastical geographic locations, but otherwise it kind of fits with what's on Earth. And you would just read it straight up in terms of the characters and and how there's some positive uh cultural influences on on in in the story that maybe are more u satisfactory to a 21st century reader.
Uh and so in that way I think it's oblique even if you've read the culture you are really working to try to piece together a couple of the things that happened and we had the benefit of talking the four of us daily about it.
Um whereas a person reading it on their own kind of has to go okay is so is that really something that's perhaps a science fiction element here that that's happened that there's no mystery really here that the that something has happened because of a science fictional meme that's never described within the book. So I I think that that's where I really scratch my head about um science fiction here. And I I'll say the same thing for an McAffrey for Dragon Riders of Per like planets that have those kind of things or Jack Vance with the dying Earth. Um you know just as many of those people argue about whether it's fantasy or science fiction. I get that feel here.
Although I wouldn't call it fantasy. I would just call it more of a a medieval fiction.
>> Well, I would just I would just quickly disagree even though you're absolutely right. I don't think anyone should read book seven in a series as the first book that they read, especially in the culture series. So, if someone stumbles by accident, they just didn't get the book. Tough, you know, tough. You didn't You didn't understand it. This is book seven in a culture series. Galactic.
>> Does your book have a number on it?
>> Mine.
>> It doesn't. I mean, does it is it says it's a culture novel.
>> Does ends game? I mean, I don't know if Dark Forest it says book two on it, but you you'd read that. Does it? I don't think it says book two on it. I don't know. We have to see. I don't know.
Sorry.
>> Just book seven.
>> Someone does read it as the first book.
You're right.
>> 100%. It's going to be opaque for sure, but uh uh whether there's science fiction, but they just didn't get what the author was trying to do. In order to get what the author was trying to do, you have to have some uh understanding of the culture and have read like we've already established a couple of books.
So out of context, this is a problem.
That's another >> I don't know because I still think that even if you hadn't gotten the culture and the science fiction elements, you still could have gotten the theme that I was referring to before, which is this idea of the storytelling and comparing and contrasting how each of the characters had influence on the king and they had different outcomes with the kings. They had different um situations in which they handled things. Now, while I don't think you would have hit all the nuances, I I think a particularly diligent reader could have still gotten a lot out of this book regardless of whether you picked up any of the other ones. Would they have enjoyed it? I don't know. Would they have gotten or like had more hard time scratching their head? Maybe. Um, I do think that there are lots of science fiction books that a lot of people talk about as science fiction that are on the cusp of science fiction, like barely sci-fi, which is a video I have wanted to do with Sam now for a while. But I would I would bring up um I would bring up um I who have never known men, which I think you've read, Bart. A lot of people argue that's not science fiction because you don't have to read anything else before it.
There's no aliens. There's no special technology, etc., etc. But >> 100 times more science fiction. This this is 10 times more sci-fi than than that book, than Hartman's book.
>> What makes it so?
>> What makes it so? The fact that it's on another planet with agents who landed on that planet from the culture who are using crazy technology to influence the society and to change it.
>> They were on another planet and I who have never known men.
>> We don't know where they are.
>> You're right. So, it could have been another planet. It could have been but here we know this is book seven in the culture. Here we know we have agents special circumstances agents. So this is more science fiction than I who have never known men. Their science fiction there is no science at all. Like I mean science fiction is supposed to at its heart like the purest form of science fiction merges two things fiction with some sort of science that we do not possess yet. Right? So that is science fiction. uh some >> not necessarily considered soft science fiction like psychology, sociology, biology. Some people don't even consider bioscience a as like true science. It's got to be physics, you know, that kind of thing. So, I'm going to say I who have never known men really plays with this idea of psychology and who you are outside of a culture. Not the culture, by the way.
um uh not related not not the same author here but um >> it's >> but but I think it's I think it's a sticky question and I love I love the argument I love >> so so for example one thing that I've always like wondered about >> and you know I've accepted it as science fiction but I can understand why people would say it isn't are certain types of dystopian fiction or even post-apocalyptic, right? Because there are plenty that are definitely science fiction. We just read Mockingberg. Mockingbird, right? 100% easily described as sci-fi. There are bloody robots, right? Uh but if you think about a 1984, where's the science >> news speak?
>> That's not science.
>> It's it's speaking inside your mind during your dreams. How is that not technology? What >> it I guess. Yeah. Like you were saying the the kind of psychological side of it then. Yeah. I guess. Yeah.
>> Well, and and there's surveillance everywhere. There's all kinds of surveillance that they dis that they talk about. I mean, the scene starts with her in a genetics lab making humans in a petri dish >> in 1984, >> I think. So, is that unless I'm getting that confused with Braden Bald?
I'm sorry. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the surveillance, but I don't >> I don't know the situation of technology at the time, whether surveillance cameras were available.
>> Well, I I >> No, that was 1948.
>> But I think a better example may even be a post-apocalyptic book that uh that many would classify as science fiction, something like The Road where there is no science at all. So science fiction like I said the purest form of it I'm not there's many others around it more and this is what I love about science fiction the variety but if we're talking about at its purest form you're supposed to have some fictional science and that's why it's science fiction fictional science uh then the road is as far away as it could be and here we're just not told about this science but there's plenty of it I mean we have agents who have landed on this planet and are using some crazy tech to uh to kill people uh and to affect change. So um yeah that's why and also you know book like Hartman's who have never known men that story can take place it doesn't matter where it's taking place like you said this is psychological story and psychological stories are not attached to science fiction by their nature they could they could you know you could you could experiment with those ideas within any um genre but uh but this is pure form of science fiction in my opinion and I'll I'll keep fighting for it. I think science fiction is a a genre that embraces all genres that it uh is a great mashup that with any genre at all and that it really at its base is still about ideas. Maybe the idea in influencing culture on a on a planet uh in a way that would be potentially the science fiction of this book or uh the science fiction of changing the psychology of a group of people or the science of you know being able to get to another planet. There's there's lots of different ways that the ideas can become forefront and often science fiction can be even criticized that it puts ideas ahead of people and and character development.
That potentially though is the uniqueness of the genre and that something that is the uh cotton candy to our minds of why we love science fiction. is because we love to toy with and think about these ideas.
>> I love what you're saying. Um, but I feel like it's almost like that kind of thinking is going into calling it speculative fiction, right? Which is another hot topic in this conversation of what is sci-fi because there have been authors who have said, "I do not write sci-fi. I write speculative fiction."
>> Yeah. um and they've made this distinction between the two. Whereas I would say sci-fi is speculative fiction.
>> Um I'm obviously talking about Margaret Atwood here. Yeah.
>> Uh because she said she doesn't write sci-fi, but she definitely does.
>> Sorry.
>> Definitely does.
>> No, I 100% agree. Um I was going to ask Richard, I'm glad you brought that up because there's a quote and I don't remember it exactly or who said it. Um, but I remember that um, Octavia Butler in her interviews talked a lot about it and it's this quote that um, kind of defined sci-fi in three particular categories. And one of the categories is if the theme of the book or the goal of the book is to get you to ask the question, what if that is the science of the science fiction? And and I don't know what the quote was. Do you remember?
>> You know what? I'm going to I don't know if this is it specifically, but one of the often uh quoted uh more academic versions of this is comes from a guy named Darkos Suben S U V I N. And I don't have it in front of me here. I guess I could look it up, but uh his Yeah, why don't you talk amongst yourselves and I'll look up his quote and I'll come back to you.
Well, I have I have one question for for for for you as we're thinking about this whether this is science fiction and that what Dale struggle with this. So, we know what what actually happens in this book. Uh we know that there are stones that fall on the previous empire which we can assume and and if you go online, everyone also assumes that it's cultures involvement that they actually affected change in a big way prior to the start of this book. these stones falling on the planet and uh so that we know about a lot of technology we know about these agents who have lended on this planet independently if instead of doing it the way banks did it which I love banks for it genius to give us just this behind-the-scenes look but if he just wrote he started this novel with just writing that these that they just lended on this planet does that then make it science because it's obvious or they just lended with this tech if he just gave us that you know a I don't know, two pages of of our protagonist landing on this planet.
Would that have helped? Now, now with science fiction, I don't think I don't think it needs that. I think the genius of this book is not for us to argue whether it's proper SF because we know it is because we know what happens. Um, even without those obvious tell, right?
>> So, I found the quote here if we want to go to it. Dark Suven's definition of science fiction is a literary genre characterized by cognitive estrangement where a noam that's a scientific or rational innovation creates an alternate alternative world that allows readers to view their own reality through a new critical perspective.
It's a realistic unreality.
I know that you know it's been the basis of a lot of people arguing on the term what is science fiction and there's lots you can pick apart there but noam would be that idea and cognitive estrangement is that it takes it a different place than our world already exists uh one step further from our world >> the um the quote that I found that Octavia is referencing is apparently a different one than that okay it was referenced I bet I guess to Robert Heinland who says there were three types of science fiction fiction stories. What if, if only, and if this goes on.
>> Okay. Nice. Yeah, it's it's a question that we're never going to answer.
>> There is no answer uh as to what science fiction is. Um, and I kind of been saving this comment by Goatman. I am easy on the subject. If one person thinks a book is sci-fi, then it's sci-fi. And whilst uh that might be going a little bit further than what I how I think about it, uh I I agree with the um what's the word I'm looking for?
The thought behind it. I don't know. I'm tired, guys. I have a baby. Um the baby excuse is out. I waited an hour. Uh to me it I kind of don't really care. Um especially as like I'm somebody who likes I I mean I don't read that widely. I read mostly sci-fi and fantasy, whatever those genres are and the blending of the two, >> but I do like to read outside of it as well. And so for me, it kind of doesn't really matter. And it's like it's just a useful label at the end of the day for finding other books or selling books in a bookshop. And at the end of the day, doesn't matter.
But that's just me. That's where a lot of authors didn't want their work listed as science fiction or even fantasy too.
They wanted to sell books and they felt that that was con uh that was narrowing their audience. Margaret Atwoods, >> Salman Rushy, >> another one.
>> I think that's I think that's too bad.
But I also think that if they look at the sales, uh, that has changed.
>> Absolutely.
>> So, bummer for them.
>> Well, it's also a history lesson in terms of how science fiction was uh regarded. um whether it was sort of something that was very pulpy. uh that uh and then when did it start to gain more of a a respect and a literary quality and how could those people who were giving a more literate um great pros good stories escape that pulp image and so over time yes that's happened and uh I think that we are approaching a period where science fiction can be considered uh respect >> almost on an even playing field. But I do see it >> almost.
>> It is interesting seeing some books kind of travel as I go to the big bookstores sometimes between the literary shelves and science fiction like Ishigura's work. Uh sometimes I'll find on either or like Clara and the Sun for example or Never Let Me Go. I've seen it in the science fiction but also more often I think on the literary shelves even though um it should be you know part of the sci-fi. Yeah, the Bionicle fan is agreeing with you that >> you know fantasy has a worse has it worse than sci-fi because I think >> sci-fi has a lot of books that are kind of Richard was talking about kind of sci-fi being seen as pulp or you know not a literary genre where you can really express yourself as a as an author or whatever but at least there are kind of a lot of quite respected authors within sci-fi, I would say. Um, >> you know, Ursa Ka Quinn pops off the top of my head as somebody who's >> been written about a lot. Um, plenty of other authors, whereas fantasy, I think that's even worse. There's hardly any that are kind of respected as like greats of the genre. Pretty much got Tolken and that's it.
>> That's not true.
>> Who else?
>> Robin Hobb. Guy Gabriel K.
>> No. But now, right now, historically, I I don't think anybody's like >> writing scholarly articles about these, or at least not as much and not in the at the same extent. I don't think they're kind of quite seen in the same way as sci-fi. It's changing, which is brilliant, but I think historically fantasy has had it worse. Well, now we're getting into history here because really in the 1970s was the first time that they really started to put on a book that was fantasy and not science fiction. It was all lumped together for a long time until I think it was Judy Del Rey. Um, Del Rey Books uh created the fantasy category and so it uh people would have thought uh you know that uh uh Tolken and others were who were telling even Norse tales were in the science fiction realm.
>> Yeah, it's crazy.
>> Yeah.
I run a book club as you guys know and we alternate every time between sci-fi and fantasy and we're always having the conversation so is this sci-fi or fantasy because sometimes it's hard to tell as well.
So this is another thing of those genre distinctions where sometimes it does not matter.
>> So and I haven't read as much fantasy as probably you guys have. I've read some.
But does fantasy require magic? Is that like the defining or not necessarily?
Could you have a fantasy book uh is a fantasy book for I know you're reading Malazan right now. Is there magic there or is it just >> Yeah, >> there is. Okay. I thought for some reason maybe there wasn't.
>> I guess it depends what you define as magic. Like is is a dragon magic?
>> Yeah.
I don't know.
>> Why is it magic? It's just it's just it's a like a a fantastical creature.
It's got nothing to do with powers or magic. So if you've got a dragon in a book, then it's fantasy.
>> Not burn.
>> Or like say you have >> consider that fantasy. P.S.
>> Yeah. Or say for example, you have books that have um gods that aren't ours and they interact with people in certain ways.
>> You wouldn't necessarily call that magic, right?
>> Maybe more subtle than that. like Guy Gabriel K has quite a few worlds where they're medieval. There's not really magic, but the the country in which it's happening, I'm thinking specifically of Song for Arbon, isn't doesn't exist. It's a fantasy world. It's a fantasy world because that country doesn't exist. It's a it's a non-existent country and it's in the medieval ages. Um, but there's rumors that people have magic and and stuff, but you never see it.
There's also books that are like this weird gobetween in between sci-fi fantasy, like a book called Memory Police, where it's taking place in Japan and for some reason the government that is is deleting words out of people's memories. Like, >> and is that technology or is that magic?
Mhm.
>> And I thought that that was like under dystopian novels.
>> Well, maybe, but it's still is that magic because there's no technology discussed. It's just this like it's I mean it's a it's a very cleverly like edged veil of discussion on Alzheimer's is what it is. But um it's still one of those >> you know which one is it? Is it? You know, >> the Bionicle says fantasy is when it's not based on explicable science or plausible according to what we understand. Uh, ghosts and vampires. And I was going to bring those up as a potential fantasy thing, but they're obviously put in the horror category sometimes. But what if you had a friendly vampire? Would it there therefore be a fantasy?
>> What if a vampire in space like Blindside?
>> Yeah. What if a vampire opened up a a bakery or a cafe and it was really cozy?
Would it be cozy fantasy or would it be cozy horror? Good question. Uh, >> depends for customers or not.
>> And I like a lot of the fantasy that's more very very very subtle. like uh a lot of episodes of Twilight Zone, the original one had just little tiny changes in the structure in our world, but had a little magical quality to it or fantasy quality to it that uh flip the story. And I kind of like those really subtle ones in terms of fantasy.
Uh I'm not big on elves and dragons, etc. And then we have uh so going by this definition explicable science or plausible according to what we understand. So therefore a science fiction book with faster than light travel not explicable not plausible must be fantasy.
>> I try to explain it.
>> Telepathy. Telepathy.
>> Telepathy is a classic one. Yeah.
>> Telepathy is a big fail failure. But uh but faster than light travel may be possible through the use of wormholes.
That that is a physical >> they they disproved that bar. They disproved it. They proved that faster than light travel isn't possible based off of what we know.
>> And at the time telepathy they thought was based on science just an extrapolation of what they were doing in their studies of the brain.
>> Right? They thought it was but it definitely is not. So >> no definitely that's not correct. The faster than light travel in itself is incorrect as you gain mass. But folding spacetime is physically possible and then if you fold space time through a use of black hole like wormhole like interstellar that is a possibility. So uh so that's why like you have these gates that are folding time there. You're not traveling faster than light. That's not possible.
You could approach zero, you know, to 999 point of like you'll never get there, but folding spaceime is still a possibility and travel.
>> And you could go between two places that are infinitely distant.
>> Yeah.
>> Another another um devil's advocate book is the first 15 lies of Harry August. A science fiction book.
>> Yeah, that's not science fiction really.
I think that that one isn't like this is 100% that one is like Or is Star Wars fantasy or science fiction?
>> At least at least >> definitely fantasy, but I love it.
>> Space wizards >> supposed to be fantasy in space.
>> Space wizards, >> but there's also a lot of technology in Star Wars. I mean, it's not, you know, some of it is magic. the the the Jedi powers. I suppose that's more magical.
But but lightsaber, you know, the the the >> hyperdrive, >> hyperdrive, you know, there there's science also.
>> Aliens, >> aliens, robots. Yeah, it's a mix.
>> I got to thank thank the Bionicle fan for giving me a term, low fantasy. I like low fantasy versus high fantasy.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I'm not the biggest fan of dragons myself either, which is kind of blasphemy to say as a a fantasy fan, but there you go. The Wheel of Time doesn't have any dragons in it, by the way.
>> Spoiler.
>> Well, actually, it has one, >> but he's a human.
>> Yeah, I was going to say he's >> have a character who never learns for how many books?
Uh 13 and a half I think.
>> Yeah. After a while it's a character with a bloody nose is what >> he's so lovable. Good old Brand.
>> I not for 13 bucks. No. No.
>> We all knew that was going to come up today. At least I did.
>> Thanks Brett. I'm glad we fulfilled our requirement.
>> I've seen time travel cathus fantasy though. That's another one because like >> this is another I I wrote down earlier >> kindred.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Same that's the same kind of thing as time and again in terms of how time travel occurs. There's nothing >> technological about it.
>> It's a fun question.
>> Yeah, it is a fun question.
>> We'll never answer it and time is getting on. So, do we want to speak any spoilers about Inversions or are you guys happy? Um, anything you want to bring up? Well, I I wanted to ask you guys which which character do you think manipulated their king better and which one do you think actually stuck to because we got a we got a story in this particular one about a a boy and a girl and how they argued about a different way of doing things. And I'm kind of wondering if the title inversions also has to do with the fact that when they were younger they had very clear values and then when they got older they switched they inverted and I kind of was wondering if that wasn't part of the title you know because usually Begs does a good job of making that very clear but this one he didn't clearly state it. So >> I was going to say we can just go into spoilers from now on. So, anybody watching now, if you're worried about spoilers, then thank you for joining.
But, uh, I really don't think it'll be that bad for you anyway, but just just in case.
>> Yeah, this story is more about the journey there. It's not necessarily that destination at the end that uh is the clear draw for the story.
>> Uh, any thoughts about what Whitney asked? I think maybe the doctor had a little bit more of obvious and we mentioned one with with the torture uh influencing the king. I think I think but uh it was very subtle. I mean the interesting thing about this book in uh as it shows us how these special circumstance culture agents actually work on a planet. Uh it showed us how how that job can be perilous. There are lots of dangers for them. uh and and but but the influence was pretty subtle. Uh and and it showed that it's it's not easy. You know, there are lots of failures. Um the war definitely had a big failure with his his love and we talked about that a little bit. Um so yeah, I don't know. I don't know if one of them was really that much more successful than the other. In the end, you know, she has to leave, fly back to to to culture. She gets picked up magically of of the ship. Uh and and and we don't know really what happens to him. There's some mystery perhaps that he does remain uh on the on the planet.
We don't know for sure, but I don't think either one was terribly successful, but it's small steps, you know. I think that's what it takes to affect change. Small steps.
It's it's an interesting question, Whitney, because if if he's doing what you think he's doing, and basically the war is telling the story of a boy and a girl, and they're philosophies about affecting change, obviously, uh referring to himself and the doctor.
Um, if you're saying that it's been flipped, then he's flipped the the the genders in his story, right? So, do you think he he might have done that? No, I think he told the story real, but I think that as you grow, you change your mind. Kind of like when she fell off the um the waterfall or whatever, she did the thing that she was so mad about. Right. So, I don't think he lied. I think that as they got older, they switched philosophies.
>> Sure.
What evidence was that with the with the doctor?
Um, the many many murders.
>> The many, many, many, many murders.
>> So, I read those at the time. Like, I guess it depends on which one. The torturer, she murdered him because otherwise she would have been tortured.
>> She tortured or she killed one before that too.
>> Mhm.
>> Who?
>> Right at the beginning. the one that was from the very beginning of the novel.
That one uh didn't make it very far, >> right? Yeah. She hadn't been she hadn't actually found out that she was going to be tortured by that point. Yeah, that's true.
>> The way it read to me, I I thought that there are drones that are kind of protecting them even when they're not aware of it. And it wasn't clear that she not 100% that she was the one directing and saying kill the torturer kill. It seemed like she when when she runs into to save whatever Walden whatever his name was who was killed as he was watching um a couple having making love to one another. Uh it seemed to me like she really didn't know about this like these maybe drones are in the background and just making sure that they're safe. the way it is in the culture, you know, when something bad happens, they can quickly swoop in and like save you. That's where I get it.
>> Well, so when I looked this up a little bit afterward, because I I agree with you initially, Bart, I thought for sure that she like maybe didn't know about it, but the knife that she has must be knife missile >> and the knife missile has to be directed by the person who holds it. So, she had to have known about it.
>> Okay, that's a good point.
>> Yeah. And it's told like the gems on the knife are kind of its ammunition or something in it.
>> And there was a very purposeful mercy killing at the beginning of the book too that showed us that she was ready to do stuff like that.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Well, I think that overall the most interesting thing about this book is thinking about ethics of intervention.
You they're trying to do the right thing, but is that >> should they be doing this? Maybe not.
Right. That's the big thing. The ethics of intervention. Well, >> that that plays the book right there >> that encapsulates the series. Yeah, >> I was just going to say that. I was saying that is what every single culture book is all about is this question of that I think he sometimes it seems like it's he's getting you to think one way and then the next book will be the exact opposite. And because there's so many of the books and you're not quite sure which way he wants you to go, I feel like he just plays with this idea and he can't decide either. And there is this like underpinning in the whole culture I think that a lot of people don't talk about which is this question of is the culture really that much better? Is it this incredible utopia or or it does it have questionable ethics? Um, I love that it's like not clear and I feel like a lot of people present it as a very obvious utopia and that's not what it is in my opinion.
>> The way I the way I read Banks is I feel like he set up a utopia that that a functional utopia because utopias usually don't function well. That's why they're called utopias. Um, but in this case it's a functional one and it's a beautiful one, but also it shows the cost of having and preserving that utopia. And a lot of a lot of uh liberal thinkers I think uh lean in one direction without acknowledging that there is a need for difficult things in the background to happen. And he is showing that hey you want to preserve this utopia. You got to make sure that these planets grow in a certain direction. You know there's the sublime that they have to deal with also which I haven't read much but I know it just mentions really of the sublime right these uh multi-dimensional beings. Uh, so I mean there's a lot happening in this galaxy. It's fascinating and I have a feeling this wasn't done. I mean he died very Ian and Bangs died very young.
He was only 57. So his vision for what this was supposed to ultimately be I think was grander than what we have. But I'm glad for what we got.
>> Absolutely.
>> I always think a little bit about uh I'm going to go to media here. I always think about Star Trek and the Prime Directive. how they weren't supposed to interfere with a planet uh is development and they constantly did.
That's the temptation we have here, right? Is that >> you don't want to have uh all of a sudden these people as they develop into space traveling, you don't want to develop enemies. Uh you want to see if you can prevent that from uh an attack being made on your utopia. Yeah, >> there's a lot. It's funny because Banks is also very funny. I think he he has great humor in his books. I feel like it was a lot less in this book. It was definitely there, but he is definitely funny. And one of the things I find funny about the culture is they say they're a peace society, a society of peace.
And yet in so many of their books, terrible things happen, wars happen, deaths happen. The culture doesn't have an army. It doesn't have um you know, like reserves of battleships, >> but it does.
>> Well, I think it's not it's not an oxymoron, though. If you want to have a peaceful society, you have to be able to preserve that peace. Otherwise, you will not have a society. They would have, you know, and this is the first book. I think this is showing it right off the bat. In the first book, Consider Fleas, we do learn about the war. So, they do have to be able to protect this peaceful society. They are peaceful, you know, they have no need for law enforcement, right, within their but the universe, the galaxy.
>> Who has need for law enforcement when they could just whip out a knife missile and kill everybody with special circumstances?
I mean, just point it out.
And and a lot of times the deaths in the books are like the ultimate ni nihilism.
Like that's the part that gets me that I hated so much about consider.
And I also have to agree with like look to winward and a couple of those other ones. Like when you get to the end, you're like, "Oh, and it didn't matter."
And you're like, "What? What do you mean it didn't matter?"
Well, I always question when you have to when you decide that you have to direct a society, that's saying we know better than you and that's taking away the uh uh the freedom of them to find their own way. And so once again here now we touch a little bit on colonialism or or that type of theme as well. And so in that way I don't feel that uh the culture is squeaky clean in any way. And that's one of the things that he's examining and throwing around, positive and negatives.
>> I do sometimes wonder if it's his kind of reflections on like the British Empire or something. the kind of work that they did where they say they're going over to Asia and on the surface they seem to be ostensibly trying to improve this this society by bringing in whatever that they have that is so much better than the locals have. But the reality is is that it's it's dirty and evil and it's all about money. Not that money matters in the culture, but you know what I mean. It's like some kind of parallel with that. I mean, he was British and some British people do um criticize the British.
I'm one of them. And especially he was Scottish. So maybe he hates the English.
>> Yeah, I was just going to mention that being Scottish, I think it's a little bit different uh different history, right? And some history of oppression within your own. So little bit different but but perhaps that's why he was >> you know reflecting on the colonial past of of of Great Britain or England >> with the empire where the sun doesn't set on the empire.
>> Yeah.
>> Self-determination is great until it butts up against someone else's self-determination.
>> Absolutely. Well, and I think that's why like why the book Inversion started out so harrowing and so primitive is to kind of get you on that side of well, yeah, you clearly have to intervene because this is an obvious terrible situation, but then but then you also have the ethics of imposing your morals and values on this culture so that way they can't do the self-determinism for themselves. So, I feel like it's still a really difficult question to answer. And he does a really great job of showing you it. It's not always that easy to figure it out.
>> Yeah.
>> Almost as difficult as figuring out what sci-fi is.
>> He's very good. He's very good.
>> Any any more uh thoughts on the book?
Any specific parts?
>> Well, I just want to make sure that it's clear. I really enjoyed it as well. Uh it and uh it didn't have to be science fiction for me to really enjoy the stories that were within. And there's a there's some side stories as well for each of the characters that go on. And uh a very touching relationship with the king's son, with Dvar, the bodyguard.
And a lot of the stories, the side stories that actually make the story very meaningful come by him telling this young child the stories. And I found those fascinating and lots of fun to think about.
>> Do we have a sorry go on >> I just want to say that there's a lot in this book. There's a there's love, there's betrayal. Uh and then a lot happens. You know we talked about ethics of intervention. There's a lot to think about. It's well written. One thing also to add especially after reading this post accession this is a super easy book to read also as far as you know smooth right easy to read quick >> um and um so all good but at its heart it's this unique structure that perhaps um no one has done better in a way of presenting us with this mystery and and unraveling and trying to find the clues about how this culture where the culture is popping up and uh we had some some fun also in the buddy read talking about this trying to and since you were reading this for the second time you picked up a few more than maybe we did and you pointed it to out to us so it's it's just got a lot of unique aspects I think uh but uh but I I really liked it and I would recommend it to anyone who has read uh you know maybe three four culture books um it's it's it's awesome >> I did find something really frustrating though >> and if you're watching here this one's a spoiler if you want to just turn it off for 30 seconds or skip up 30 seconds that the two story lines didn't come together at the end. Uh that frustrated me. I understand that it's a you know a compare and contrast kind of situation with the their two stories. Uh but boy, I was expecting some sort of interwining of their story towards the end. There is one connection >> and that's >> the fact that yeah the king in uh the doctor's story affected the death of the king in the other story through parent.
>> Mhm.
>> He he trained her to kill him basically.
I I kind of feel like it's very banks for them kind of not to because he's not going to give you the easy answer. He's going to make you do the work to figure it out. And um when they do come together, it's almost never as satisfying as you want it to use the weapons. So >> yeah, buy or beware.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
I think it holds a very unique and special place within the series and I think he was quite brave writing this in some ways especially after you he's already released six books in the series and they're all this kind of high space opera books and then he puts this book out which is like like we've been saying you have to work for it to to really find out how it's connected to the to the rest of the culture. So I think it's quite brave to do this kind of story, but I think it's really important to show the breadth of special circumstances work. So I think it's really a really interesting book in the series and a great uh just a great a great book. And if I may one more caveat about when to read this book, I would recommend also and this is not a must, but I think I think it it helps to have read book four in the series, especially state-of-the-art, which also has I don't want to spoil it for you guys if you haven't read it. But yeah, I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna say it, but it does pay uh because you get uh let's just add something something similar uh happens in that book, but it's it reframes everything for me personally here in Colorado.
>> Well, I I I am planning on going to get it and at least reading that one main big story >> for this context. Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's in my shelf. I'll sometime get to it.
>> Do we have a preference of the story?
Which which uh character story you um enjoyed the most or thought the most impactful or whatever you think?
>> Well, hands down, I'm going to say I love the doctor story. Um but I do like and it added a lot to the body god story that the ending was a little bit more nebulous. Like so you like read a little bit more into the end of the bodyguard story when um I I like at the very end. I think that he he did a good job with it at the end.
>> Absolutely.
>> That's one more experiment he threw into the book.
>> Yeah.
>> To give you two possible endings.
>> Also, I read something that was like an inversion between the two of them within the story. This is in my idea. I read this where the doctor she is she no one trusts her whereas with the war he doesn't trust anybody else. So that was an interesting kind of inversion between the two of them. Um but I agree I think the doctor's story was more interesting. I think the main reason for me, but I think the main reason for that may be the the author of the whole book, >> what's his name again?
>> He is physically with the doctor and he falls in love with her. So, I think there's this immediacy. It's we're closer to it than we are to the worst story. That's like being, you know, there's more layers there. Uh but >> but there is a lot of unrequitedness.
There is so much unrequitedness.
>> Yeah.
It's quite a sad story in many ways, especially on the doctor's side.
>> Um, but yeah, nobody really ended up happy on that side.
>> Yeah, go on.
>> I was going to say if I had to guess the I didn't look at the page count, but the page count I believe would be higher for the doctor story. I'm guessing it would be almost up to twothirds to one third because we had a lot of things going on in the doctor stories and Devoir stories were more him telling stories to a boy or him hearing stories from Perund and those tended to be shorter chapters at least that I can recall.
>> And so to me it's natural that the doctor story seems to dominate most people's mind.
>> That's a good point. I would just say I would say even though you you mentioned and I know why you said it Richard that that it wasn't satisfying that they kind of didn't cross somewhere that they didn't meet within the story or cross directly cross paths. Uh I think both stories um were interesting and added something uh to the to the reading experience and u and there wasn't a disconnect to me. I felt like they were both it because sometimes you'll get one point of view that you really like and you hate the other one. In this case, there was cons consistency I think of the themes in this ethics of inter intervent intervention that really made it you know work for me very well even though they never did meet. We we do know that they met years prior on some other planet of course when they were together. So um so that's the only meeting that they actually have. That's where they cross. It made me wonder if the two stories were written separate for a while and that all of a sudden he had the idea, oh, let's marry these two together in this novel.
I have no proof of that. It just crossed my mind.
>> I don't know. I think they complement each other quite well, but I can understand the the want for them to be connected and that it could have added some kind of catharsis of some sort or interesting conversations.
I like how banks leaves it up to us, you know, to kind of decide about things and how we feel about it as opposed to giving clear-cut answers where, you know, we're one uh, you know, side of the equation between the two of them wins and shows that this is the right way of intervening, the softer way or the harder way. Um, you know, we had that story uh about what was it the puppy peeing and sticking their nose.
you know, that's not pleasant, but you need to do it so it'll learn later on.
Uh, sorry, my phone is ringing. Um, yeah. Anyway, uh, I thought the boat stories were were great.
>> That's another Bank's trademark, by the way, leaving things uh, open to interpretation, especially in a sci-fi.
Although I do have to I do have to mention just because Bart mentioned the story of the puppy peeing and said and using that as an as an example.
>> Maybe you should say a little bit more about the story so people know what we're referring to.
>> Okay. So um he um uses this idea that you have to be cruel to be kind sometimes, but he's explaining it to a small child. So, in order to explain it a little bit better, he uses the example of a puppy and says, "Well, when you're training it not to potty in the house, you shove its nose in the pee and like yell at it. Even though that's not a very nice thing to do, it's better off so that way it can come into the house and stay with you and not pee all over everything."
This is the almost exact same argument that Robert Heleinland makes in Starship Troopers when he's arguing for lots of other things. And I just have to point out that that is a interesting parallel that I just thought thanks to Bart. Good job, Bart.
>> I gonna have to think about that one.
>> It's in chapter eight. Just saying.
>> You have a crazy memory. the same he uses the idea of the puppy punishment as trying to describe why people should go through corporal punishment and why young adults essentially don't have morality on their own. They have to be trained to be moral.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> Yeah. So anyway, fun. Interesting. I wonder if he read it. I wonder if he did it on purpose or not. Maybe not. I don't know.
Well, uh, any more thoughts before we say good night?
No silence. All right. Uh, so I think that concludes the chat. It's been another wonderful chat with you guys.
Thank you very much for having us. I'm going to copy Richard again because he is my role model and as my brother said, me in 20 years. Um, >> that was an awesome comment. It's so funny and I'm I'm honored.
>> Me too. Me too. Uh we'll go around the clock and say kind of what you got coming up or anything you might be excited you're reading or anything like that just to say goodbye. So Whitney.
>> Um well you guys know what I'm reading right now. Um >> a joy I'm sure >> I'm struggling pretty hard. Uh, it's a second reread of The Shadow of the Torturer, which I DNFED the first time, and I'm gonna make it through this time, you guys. I'm gonna make it through. Um, I've been convinced by so many people on my channel that I'm just straight wrong and that I will love it if I just give it another chance. It's not happening.
Um, I I do understand it better the second time around, like what I'm supposed to be like how I'm supposed to read it essentially. But I just I really have a problem with something that like I am just like not capable of figuring out what's going on until I read five books at least twice. I I just there's something that rubs me the wrong way.
It's very like not awesome. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but I I just I don't love that about the story.
Um, and it's kind of a chore to read, but minus that. Um, I don't know that that's that's like a quite a downer. I gota we got to come up with another buddy read that I'm excited to to pick up. So, >> I'll leave it to you, Richard.
>> All right. Uh, I just posted a video today about reading a fantasy book >> as a science fiction guy. Uh, it was recommended to me by a gentleman from Santa Fe, New Mexico who watches my channel, Paul Cooper, and he gave me this book and the two sequels as well.
And so, you can find that on my channel.
And I discovered I started reading the book from you as well. And and uh, so I reviewed that. So, I thought, okay, maybe May is just going to be recommendation month. So there was another YouTuber um Pope Mortm Jake who had uh put out a video about 15 books in his time on air here that he discovered in the pulp piles piles. Pulp piles.
Sure. Pulp that uh that were actually pretty good. And so I just finished this one. Um I might have a bone or two to pick with Jake on that. We'll see in an upcoming video. And I'm going to go and pick another book that somebody has recommended to me. I'll just sort of go through there. I vering is starting to talk to me. That that one that you gave me, Rainbow's End.
>> That might be the next one. We'll see.
>> Well, which one did you read of mine that you finished?
>> Oh, before the the one uh that was the video before was Oh, it was Remnant Population.
>> Oh, and thumbs up, thumbs down, halfway.
Okay.
>> Thumbs up. I compared it though to historical uh fiction where I had read something in high school or in junior high that I'm not sure that it really held up well because of the way it uh in it uh described indigenous people. It was called Light in the Forest >> about a child who was kidnapped into an indigenous tribe and then had to be returned and he uh obviously would rather have stayed with his indigenous family at that point.
The I was arguing whether science fiction can look at some of these things free a little bit from the datedness that can happen with uh the writing of of uh some of the events of our history or some of the ways we refer to cultural groups >> and remnant population does a pretty interesting job with a person who's doesn't become a a child of a tribe but becomes sort of a mother grandmother figure in a tribe of aliens.
Mhm. Have you read Word for World is forest?
>> I definitely have. H >> Have you read um Little Fuzzy?
>> I have not.
>> Little Fuzzy. That sounds like the kind of books I'm reading to my baby right now.
>> Read this one. HB Piper. I I don't think that's a kids book, right?
>> No, definely not. But I mean, maybe I think small kids could read it and still like it, you know?
>> It's got a lot of humor, too. It looks like as well, right? It does.
>> Yeah.
But >> so, uh, I'm reading currently, uh, one of your favorite books, Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell. I just started it recently. I had a lot of family matters to take care of my daughter graduated college.
Thank you. It was awesome. So, I've been reading a little bit less uh over the last few days, but I started Cloud Atlas and uh, yeah, the first perspective was a little bit tough. Not that it wasn't interesting to Sam, but it was a little bit tough just because of the language they really dives in and uses the proper language that at the time 19th century.
Um, so but I'm already hooked. I'm loving it. It's uh it's written so well.
So I'm having >> the second perspective now. Then >> I finished second perspective.
>> That's the composer.
>> That's right. Composer go from the Brit.
Yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic.
By the way, as somebody who complains a lot about the representation of music in uh fantasy sci-fi books where they just they don't understand what they're talking about. They use words that they don't understand.
>> Amazing. So so good. So good. So accurate. I loved it.
>> I I couldn't vouch for like you can because I'm not in any way musically inclined, but but it's written beautifully.
>> Yeah.
>> Fantastic. uh and intriguing and the connections are starting to take place.
So, Cloud Atlas, I'm hoping it continues uh to uh to inspire. It's it's good.
Very good so far. Um yeah, so that's what I'm reading right now. Read some great books last month. Was very excited about them. Put out a video wrapping up April. Six books and I really enjoyed all of them. Mockingbird being one of the books that I enjoyed even though I had some qualms about. That was a great video. The next video I haven't even started shooting, but I I think I had an idea for it to because I read Tender is the flesh. That was one of the books that I really liked as a loved actually.
I thought it was amazing, but it was such a difficult read and such a weird I had this weird feeling almost in my body in my bones as I was reading that book that I thought maybe I'll go through the shelves and like look at books that kind of make you feel something weird like ver Vermeere you know uh Vandermir I'm sorry not the painter like Vandermir I meant with annalation books of that type that kind of you know have something uh and that might be my next video but uh yeah otherwise just enjoying reading cloud Atlas right now and his pros is is really uh beautiful and um yeah having fun with it.
>> Well, Bart, don't forget we have to have conversations.
>> I can't wait.
>> That's right.
>> And I think I mean Tender is the flesh.
That's that's one book that I I would be curious to see if you Sam and Richard have not read it what you would make of this book. It's quite uh difficult, quite dark, but I think profound in a way uneven in the way it's written. Uh, it's a translated work by an Argentinian author. So, I'm not sure if the translation is great, but the the thoughts, the ideas, and the unflinching way in which she presents them.
>> Haunting. It's a book that will haunt you forever. And the ending, gut punch.
Oh my gosh.
>> Oh my god. Exactly. Impossible to forget. I think we're exactly on the same page with this one. We're not always exactly on it, but I think yeah, it sounds like and also I I read another one, Speaker for the Dead by Orson.
You know, the author is whatever, but the book is great. So, >> agreed.
>> Yeah.
>> Nice. So, I recently finished book five in Malazen Book of the Fallen, which was very good, >> which means I'm halfway through. So, I'm thinking about making a video about how I stand, my thoughts and feelings halfway through the series. And right now I have a book club on Sunday and we are reading Shroud by Adrien Chaikoski.
>> Yay.
>> So I'm read.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I'd be curious, Richard, to see what you end up thinking of it. Um it was it is on the Hugo short list, you guys. So maybe my vote did matter, maybe it didn't. I don't know. But um if TCowski didn't win for Children of Time, which I don't understand how that didn't happen, but probably my second favorite book of his is either Dogs of War or Shroud. I think he really did a good job with it. So, >> well, maybe the recommendations change for my next book here.
>> I'm enjoying it so far. Uh I'm like halfway through. I wouldn't say I'm like infatuated or anything so far. Uh, but I'm enjoying it.
>> Yeah.
>> So, um, >> have you read Pandora Star?
>> Me?
>> Yeah. You?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Um, >> I thought I thought this was Tchaikovsky's version of chapter 18.
>> Yeah.
>> Like the whole book is a version of chapter 18. Yeah. I I I literally thought that that these aliens remind me of of uh >> Morning Light Mountain.
>> Morning Light Mountain. Yeah.
>> Yeah. and not quite the same, but I get a similar feeling with the times as well. This kind of >> Yeah, it's just very alien aliens. If if everybody's wondering what we're talking about, it's very alien aliens. And if there's one thing he does, well, >> it is buglike aliens >> for sure.
>> Two things just quickly in Shroud that I liked, I'll just jump in. One is obviously what you're talking about the aliens and the difficulty in communicating but also uh I think he does an interesting thing where he shows the difficulty from the human perspective as they're trying and then he flips it and shows us what the alien is thinking about this thing that that the alien is >> or or trying to understand and that was done I thought very well but it's not a book necessarily that you're gonna fall in love with in the traditional sense >> but I thought it was perfection the way it was done in my opinion but just >> I 100% agree It's not mind-blowing. It's not going to be like, oh my gosh, the best book, super classic, but it was it did well what it did. Basically, >> I don't feel like the story itself is anything mind-blowing. I'm not gripped by what's happening or like I I've read plenty of books about difficulties of communication between aliens and that kind of stuff. So, that doesn't feel particularly new. But exactly what you said, B. In fact, I think my favorite parts are when I read from the perspective of the alien and seeing how they think about the actions of the humans. I think that's really interesting.
>> You know, based off of how you guys are describing it now, it would be a really interesting story to compare to the gods themselves.
>> Even Revenant Population has that kind of an aspect to it, too.
>> I gotta read that. It's been on my TBR for a long time.
It's a It's an easy read. The Remnant Population. I do recommend it.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I own it as well. All right. Well, it's time to go. I should probably go and uh be a helpful husband and father again.
>> Um so, thank you very much you guys.
It's been really fun as usual and uh I can't wait for the next one.
It's always so fun. We need to decide what we're reading.
>> Yes, we do.
>> All right then. Thank you everybody in the chat for watching and commenting and I will see you soon. We will all see you soon, I'm sure. Good night. Goodbye.
>> Thanks a lot, Sam.
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