Ep. 7 - Different Cult, Same Playbook? | The Way of Escape

[00:00:02]There is [music] a way out, a way of escape. I'm Ron Rickman, former Remnant Fellowship leader and [music] way down staff member. Join me and other survivors as we share stories of faith and of hope and of healing from spiritual [music] control. This is the way of escape.

[00:00:23]The stories shared on the way of escape reflect [music] my personal experiences and opinions and those of my guests.

[00:00:30]They're [music] told for healing, awareness, and truth from our own perspectives and memories. [music] Hello and welcome back to the way of escape. You're doing double take cuz this is the second episode. But Julie and I, Julie Dro, in case you just logged on to this one as your first one, make sure you go back and hear her story. We wanted to talk about instead of someone's story or how things, you know, what we saw transpire. We watched The Vow on HBO Max. And I don't I didn't watch it. When did it come out? In 23, maybe.

[00:01:05]>> 2022. Well, maybe. I don't know. But this is the fun one. Enough talking about myself. This is >> No. So, Julie watched it. Got finished with it before I got finished with it.

[00:01:16]Adam and I were watching it. And OD watched a little bit, and he would be like, I cannot listen to this. It's way too much. So anyway, as we were talking about it, I'm like, we we have not I have texted her about it, but we have not verbally sat and just talked about how crazy that show is.

[00:01:32]And HBO, we're giving you some kudos and hopefully some views if you haven't taken the time to watch it. But Julie made a list while she was while she was watching it and she was started reading it to me while we were took a break and I was like, don't read it anymore. Let's just talk about it on here. Somebody told me there were a lot of parallels and when I started see I was watching it I was like jotting it all down in my notes cuz like oh my gosh I have probably over 50 things but for you that don't know what this is the vow is an HBO series featuring the people that did a little bit culty podcast and book >> Sarah Edmonson and Nikki Ames >> they yeah and so Michael Shamlin was recently on their podcast and um >> they wrote a book called A Little Bit Culty, too. And it's really it's really well done.

[00:02:24]>> So, they were in the Nexium cult, which is not a religious cult. It's more of a self-improvement type cult, but it's crazy all the similarities. I encourage you to go watch it.

[00:02:36]>> It's so good. It's maybe it's not as shocking if you haven't been in a cult, but if you've been in one, I'm telling you, it is crazy. So, you have to watch all the way to the end because it's really interesting to see. Maybe you guys that are still in Remnant should watch it, too. Just see see if anything kind of clicks with you. But if you're not still in Remnant, you'll definitely be able to relate to a lot of the things. I I thought HBO did a really good job. Uh the very first episode, I was like, I would join this thing. Like, this looks like it.

[00:03:10]>> Although I'm never joining anything again. [laughter] So, >> I know. But it, you know, it it looked like a thing that was really helping people.

[00:03:19]>> It looked like people that had money, people that looked good, people that were educated, they were all getting involved. So, >> a lot of people from Hollywood, there were people that were in movies and stuff, actors. Well, you find out later on that that's purposeful, you know, >> right? Okay. So, tell us some of your questions that you started with.

[00:03:36]>> Read my thing. Okay. Read a couple of them. Let's talk about it.

[00:03:39]>> One of the things that stood out at first, well, yeah. One of the things that stood out at first is you you see why they joined the thing. You know, you're it's it's a painful problem that you want to overcome, whatever. Similar to way down, you you're looking to improve yourself. They did get recruited. They promised them, you know, this is the answer to all your problems or whatever. But, um, >> if you want to be happy, you can be really happy. If you want to have love, you can have all the love. You know, it was it was a better better yourself >> type thing.

[00:04:10]>> Type thing. Yeah. And then you moved up in levels and >> so it was multi-level marketing after the fact, but they didn't know that's what they were getting into originally.

[00:04:19]So, so what were some of the things that you first started noticing that were parallel?

[00:04:24]>> One of the main things that stands out right off the bat is this their leader, this guy Keith can >> Reeri.

[00:04:31]>> Keith Reeri. Yeah. how they treated him.

[00:04:33]It It was so interesting because they he he was a person that liked to sit around and talk about his ideas about things and people would circle up around him and just trying to glean wisdom from him.

[00:04:47]>> He like like he required the focus on him and he didn't want side conversations going.

[00:04:53]>> He wanted everything to be about him and what he was talking about. And even if it was just a waste of time, but all these people, men and women, would come and gather around him, just to sit closer and be so excited just to glean any information.

[00:05:08]>> Yeah. And that's how it was at Remnant.

[00:05:10]For those that haven't experienced that, even if you've just come to a wedding, you can probably remember if Gwen was dancing on the floor or Elizabeth was dancing, everybody was supposed to move out of the way and watch them. or how we would all pull up chairs around her and just sit and listen to her talk and she would always have gather people around her and just sit and listen to her. I mean, like about things that as as a grown adult like you should be able to kind of discern, figure out on your own, but it's like >> she must have some wisdom on what to do about this certain thing. And we listened because we had fallen for the the initial thing that produced fruit, I guess. So, we had lost the weight or we had become nicer to our children or we had, you know, stopped talking so much or whatever. That that was shocking to me to think. Yeah. Like Adam and I watched it together and he would go, "Oh my gosh." They're like, "Oh." They all just went up there like, "Mom, how can this be?" So, because what we knew about Nexium, just the overtone was that it was a sex cult. But but that wasn't the a control cult. It's a Yeah. And he he had a group of leaders that he he chose his leaders >> that he had around him, all of his Yes, people that he gathered around himself.

[00:06:28]Yeah.

[00:06:28]>> And he had a tactic of being able to like call them at 3:00 in the morning and have them go for a walk with them and they would answer the phone and they would get up and go. And I I I would have done that for them. I I remember someone saying like, you know, we got invited to do something with Gwen or something at one point and I was like, "Oh my gosh, we have other plans. You know, we've already made these plans."

[00:06:50]And they're like, "If you get a call from the prophet, you drop everything."

[00:06:56]And that's how they treated this guy.

[00:06:59]It's like it doesn't matter if you get a phone call at 3:00 a.m. And and the other the reason why we know all this stuff is because they recorded everything, all the conversations, audio recording, video recording for future generations. That was when I was like, my gosh, literally everything was recorded. So, like if he called at 3:00 a.m. and you were, you know, he would meet you and go on a walk to talk about your pride or your things, you'd be recording it >> because he might he might tell you.

[00:07:29]That's what Gwen always said. She might tell you how Jesus when Jesus is coming back. If you don't have a recording, then nobody else would know.

[00:07:37]>> Yeah.

[00:07:37]>> Mhm. For future generations or for the next book or something, you know. And it was it was like they had to take these classes. They had these modules that they would go through and it was all kind of like psychological stuff, how to think about things differently. There were people that were helped like it sounded like a good thing that people were helped to come out of their shell and things like that. A couple of the people that like remained faithful to the end were people that had Tourette's really bad. One guy described it as with Tourette's you have an itch that you have to scratch. With this program, they helped them realize that you don't have to scratch the itch. You disassociate the itch from the scratching and then you don't have to scratch the itch.

[00:08:23]>> And it was like Gwen gave us, you know, some tool like you just cut your food in half or >> just wait for the growl.

[00:08:29]>> You just wait for the growl and then all of a sudden we're like worshiping this person because they saved our life, >> you know, >> and that is and and giving her that was the other thing I noticed in there is all credit is due.

[00:08:41]>> Yeah. and and Keith got all the credit like so it could be somebody was just a great business person and they had great skills or whatever and but they would have supposed they were supposed to give that credit back to Keith. They would say you know and that people got in trouble at Remnant for not giving credit to Gwen or Elizabeth. I mean my OD got text messages from Elizabeth herself that said get up on stage and back me up. I remember so many times she would text me because OD hadn't paid attention to his phone and I would say, "He's in his scrubs. I don't think you would want him up on stage." And she's like, "No, no, I think that'd be cool. Like, he needs to just get up there in his scrubs." So, that brings another thing.

[00:09:23]>> Yes. It's that they recruited and attracted people that were had position or power to legitimize their cause. And they also attracted pretty people. They went after the pretty people. I remember so many times them saying something about >> they go after the capable successful people to give it credibility.

[00:09:44]>> That's who they want to be their leader and they go after the beautiful people too is what she said.

[00:09:50]>> Yep.

[00:09:51]>> In that for sure. I mean it's just so many correlations. I mean and that's that's why it's so shocking that you can get involved but I think that's why watching it was kind of a relief even though it was so disturbing cuz you're like oh my gosh. But it's like these people are really intelligent and they got messed up in this really messed up thing because to me it seems almost more messed up than what we were involved in because but people that are watching this are like that was messed up. Why did you get in trouble by grown adults?

[00:10:18]You were a grown adult. I was saying to somebody, it's so shocking how it was line by line. This man is exactly like Gwen and Elizabeth. He does the exact same things to people that Gwen and Elizabeth does did. And I'm like, how did did she know? Did she follow this guy?

[00:10:38]>> And someone was like, it's narcissists.

[00:10:40]It's what narcissists do. It's what a narcissist does.

[00:10:44]>> It the whole entire world surrounds it.

[00:10:48]It's all about you. [snorts] It surrounds you.

[00:10:51]>> And so, how did So, of course, >> self the center, >> right? And Elizabeth learned that from watching Gwen be in the center. So, then that's all she knows to do. And that's all her yes men know to do too is to push her in to her and prop her up.

[00:11:04]>> And that's what they did with Keith. I mean they went way far on the things that they did but it so did people in remnant and things were hidden. Almost everything was hidden in >> covered up covered up and the people that were closest to him were sent out to like put out fires to uh damage control. Right. Then in the end, this this lady was like, literally, I was used for damage control.

[00:11:31]>> I related to her so much.

[00:11:32]>> I know. I knew you would, Nancy.

[00:11:34]>> And and I was I was talking to somebody else about it the other day. And I I just think you just thought you were doing good. You thought you were doing something good. So, you worked harder.

[00:11:44]If things were falling apart or people were figuring things out, you didn't think at the time like, shoot, Julie and Harold figured out that she looks goofy in a chair spinning around and that's our preacher and that's weird. At the time, you just thought we need to make sure they don't say that to anybody.

[00:11:58]Like, you're not thinking, is there some validity to what's being said? Just like when you all left.

[00:12:05]>> Well, they didn't Matthew 18 it. Yes, but that does not negate the fact that there's validity to what they were saying. They brought up real issues.

[00:12:14]>> Right. Right. Well, so anyway. Okay.

[00:12:17]>> Okay. Let's read some of these things.

[00:12:19]Yeah. I shared about the documentation.

[00:12:21]You're subjecting yourself to an authority, someone to hold you accountable to accomplish your goals.

[00:12:27]And so, you know, we submitted to accountability because we wanted to do the things. But then accountability became a means of control >> or a means of the small group leaders.

[00:12:39]even being accountable to your small group leaders. Small group leaders became a means to gather information.

[00:12:46]>> What what they call it in the vow is or what Nexium's theory was or EXP or whatever or ES >> ESP >> was that they called it collateral and they would get something they would know something about you. You would have to give them collateral in order for them to move on to the next thing and to move further up into the system. And I was sitting listening to it and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, it sounds crazy." Because you're they're doing something like telling something a secret about their life, their past, sending a picture of themselves, something they would never normally do. And so maybe we were never asked for that. We were never asked for we never were like where they say, "We need you to give collateral to move on up, Ra." But we were asked to share why was it hard to do this or that and what was >> your guidance was used against you >> and then all that was documented and kept in a system to where they could look back on it. So even when I wasn't Julie's small group leader originally, I could look back in a file on the computer in outreach and see what Julie's things if I didn't know her as well, you know, what her things were, her issue was or what this was hard or that was hard or this really hurt her feelings cuz it was all documented and written down. And they did that too where they kept up with >> everything. I don't know if Michael did a really good job of covering. I mean, I knew about this because I was a regional rep. And so anytime I called a person, reached out to a person even in way down, not even a member of the church, you you logged in, you went to their file and you wrote down everything that they said or any anything that they said that was maybe questionable or anything that you told, you know, whatever kind of guidance you gave them >> or if it was any kind of correction >> or if they were going to be hopeful exiles like they might actually want to join Ren. And in that file, it says how many times and what dates they logged in and if they webcasted. And I knew that also because I had there was somebody several years back that they were trying to get kicked out. And I was like trying to help this person stay in. And then I got a phone call from Ted that said, "No, Julie, we want some sometimes we just want people to leave. We just want her to leave." And she's not even really webcasting anyway. She's only logged in one time, you know, >> so I knew that.

[00:15:15]>> Yeah, you could look up there was a way to look up in the guidance report what who had webcasted from where they had webcasted if it was from their account, their husband's account, their whatever.

[00:15:26]It was it's a it was a lot of information. We after Michael exposed that on the Phil Williams special from the Super Bowl that year, we deleted all that supposedly. But there were other things that was deleted and stored in people's >> been deleted.

[00:15:41]>> Well, it was deleted from where we other people could access it.

[00:15:45]>> Only certain people were given access.

[00:15:47]Probably the four guidance ladies.

[00:15:49]>> Yeah.

[00:15:50]>> Or Yeah. Only certain people >> done maybe so he could help keep it going. But >> your stuff has not been deleted. They know. And the things that are used against you like anything that you were trying to get help with, you know, even personal things. Uh well, you know, that person had a problem with porn or you know that person it's used against you to assassinate your character. And then also, I don't know if you guys know this, but there are ex members that their video testimony from the You Can Overcome Show was used against them in divorce court to make it so that they had to Did she have to get Did she have to go into an inpatient treatment program or did she just have to get she had to get mental health before she could see her children because she shared a testimony on the >> anxiety? about having anxiety on the you can overcome show and talking about having overcome her anxiety and that was >> I didn't I didn't understand that as much in remnant that they could really use that even though I would hear that I heard Michael bring that up before I left that they use your testimony against you and I was like what is he even talking about my testimony until I left and then we left and I know that Elizabeth had meetings at Ashelon and she told them someone stood up for John Hullbrook and said, "Hey, the Brickman's used to be good like a week ago and all of a sudden you want to >> everybody respected them a week ago."

[00:17:19]Yeah.

[00:17:20]>> Yeah. Now all of a sudden we're supposed to think they're bad. And I then she said, "Well, there's some things about the Rickmans that I've been helping them with or I am the only one that's privy to." Which whatever. What is that? I don't even know what it was. But it was just to slander us and make us feel like we were let, you know, make people think we were not above par or whatever so that they wouldn't trust what we said.

[00:17:42]>> It's a diversion so that nobody looks at what you actually said, >> right?

[00:17:47]>> You know, it's like shoot the messenger, >> right?

[00:17:49]>> But the same thing was done to us.

[00:17:52]Friends of ours told us, you know, that they were like, but these are good people. We know Harold and Julie and they are good people. And Tish and Mark said, "Well, you know, there's been a lot of guidance over the years for Julie and Harold." And they said, "Really? Are you sure about that?" And Tish said, "Well, I don't actually know if that's true, but you know, so once you question them on it and they they backtrack, but initially what they're trying to do is assassinate your character."

[00:18:25]So that's basically what happened in this cult, this Nexium cult is if anybody tried to leave, they were destroyed >> and they held their collateral over them that they had given. Then they they were worried, oh my gosh, they're going to expose that I said something horrible about my parents or about my sister or about my husband or whatever. And they were going to ruin their lives is what they thought. They will ruin my lives if I leave. So then you feel trapped and you stay. You stay.

[00:18:51]>> Yeah.

[00:18:51]>> Yeah. Every day they would go over their day at the end of the day and make a list of all their failures. So you're like you're always needing more help.

[00:19:00]You're always under >> and you and you were never good enough.

[00:19:02]>> You were never good enough.

[00:19:03]>> It's kind of like what you talked about in the last >> obedience is weaponized and it becomes obedience to the rules of the institution over obedience to God. I mean uh pride is used against you. Pride just means you think for yourself or you have a differing idea or a differing opinion than you have. They said pride.

[00:19:23]Keith the leader guy would say that person has pride when he was actually the one that had the most. But he always called it out. And I think I think that that correlation with remnant became so clear. I I just remember like almost every day I would text Julie or somebody and say, "Oh my gosh, I I didn't realize that everything that was preached like the counterfeit church, you know, do not associate with the counterfeit church."

[00:19:52]>> Well, it's exactly what remnant was at that point. They were they were unlike any other.

[00:19:58]>> All the things she said about the other churches is exactly what we are and >> what we were. the parallels too to the musical like the some of the things Michael was saying >> were jaded I think I think >> stand in line whatever whatever that song was there was like whole lines where I'm like oh my gosh >> yep I think that >> not allowed not allowed >> yep there was a lot and I I think that why it was shocking to watch it on the vow was it I was just like oh my gosh they actually said that wait we actually did that like I actually the verbiage.

[00:20:35]>> I'm like, okay, we told people that like the pride thing was so like they just have so much pride. Well, they don't want to do what we said. Have they listened to you yet? Are they listening to you? You know, like are they go getting under your authority would be what we would have said, you know?

[00:20:48]>> Yeah. The leader only cares about people as much as they have value to the leader. Once they no longer add value, they're discarded. Like, what can you do for this movement or for Gwyn? You know, for sure they were propping Otis up or she was lifting Otis up because he gave credibility to her organization. We need a doctor saying way down is great.

[00:21:09]>> Yep.

[00:21:10]>> And you know, >> for sure, for sure. And then they just work you to death for free and but you want to work because you want to be accepted and you want to make it to heaven. I mean that the whole is like these people in the in on the vow wanted to be successful. They wanted to do what was right. They wanted to be successful in their own careers and things, but then when they joined that, they gave them up.

[00:21:34]>> They left. They gave up their careers.

[00:21:36]>> They gave them up. I'm like, how are they living right now? Intensive workshops for 5 days straight. They would have intensive workshops for 21 days straight. Like, let's see if they can.

[00:21:46]>> And then they began working for the organization to build up the organization. And they used people's gifts to benefit the organization. And they used people with lots of money. So they had >> to finance it. To finance it.

[00:22:00]>> Yeah. So the the one lady had millions of dollars and she would pay for a special thing >> and paid for their lawyers and things like that for lawsuits and stuff >> and then she would pay salaries. She was the one investing so much money.

[00:22:15]>> She she was the aist to some liquor company. She was like an aist to that.

[00:22:20]>> And and that same thing happens in remnant too as well. you there's certain people that >> people paying for your rent or paying for >> and to keep you held in there. So when you when you feel like you owe someone because they gave you a place to live or you lived with a family >> or paid for your groceries or or paid for free so you could have three jobs or whatever. You feel this devotion to them or they answered your call >> and you're indebted.

[00:22:48]>> Yeah. I know people that when I was living in Minnesota like they were indebted to the leaders of Minnesota which were Sarah and Elden because they were always available to take their call and to counsel them and it was it's such a interesting thing to watch like just that devotion. It I think it was it's kind of interesting to get to watch it for a different cult because you get to see how good people get messed up in something even if it wasn't for the weight loss like like I don't sometimes you question yourself. You're like, "Oh my gosh, am I what was wrong with me that I went? What was wrong with me? We went all in. Like why did you spend 12 years there and then all of a sudden leave?" You know, like like it's just or how I convinced my husband to do this.

[00:23:29]You know, it's just so weird. My gosh.

[00:23:30]>> The lady was talking to a psychologist or whatever. And she's like, "But you know, I believed in the program." And and she's like, "I don't know if he was always if it was him that was bad. if it was him that was always bad. Start out good and then it turned bad.

[00:23:47]>> I don't think it was the program itself.

[00:23:48]I think it was just the devotion to Keith that was bad.

[00:23:51]>> The hallmark psychological tactic for manipulation is to tear someone down, then you provide the answer to fix them.

[00:23:58]>> Mhm.

[00:23:59]>> And so that's what this guy did. He would belittle people publicly, embarrass them publicly and shame them publicly, make them, you know, stand up and give a public confession about, you know, and they're apologizing for having pride or, you know, I'm going to get this right and and be so sad. The the women were ultra devoted to Keith. There was lots of men that were, too. But he got he had the persuasion, I guess, the narcissistic skill set to to really convince somebody to do whatever it took. And it's a test to prove your devotion, >> right?

[00:24:32]>> It's there's test and and and he would he had so much collateral on each person that they were scared to leave and they knew if they left they weren't going to have their friends that they had now devoted their whole life. They've already given up.

[00:24:46]>> You think about it. Yeah. Your friends that our friends that we had or family that are still in were used as collateral against us as well, >> right? And and people even say that like there'll be somebody that wants to leave and they'll they'll be like, "I know that I won't have the friends I have anymore." Well, that's because that's weird, you guys. Like people my friends won't get to be in my wedding.

[00:25:08]>> Yeah.

[00:25:09]>> Well, are they really your friends then?

[00:25:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. you and I I think that that >> if they don't go to your wedding when other people are allowed to go to weddings now at other churches, then maybe they're not really your friends if they don't go to your wedding, >> right? It's and or maybe they are and they're just as scared.

[00:25:26]>> They're trying to stand up.

[00:25:27]>> They're being manipulated.

[00:25:28]>> They're so devoted that they they don't want to the collateral that they have that somebody has on them is bigger, you know?

[00:25:34]>> I don't know. I I think I think it was just shocking. You sat and watch this and you're like, "Oh my gosh, these women would do anything for him. How gross." and he he wasn't attractive and they would still, you know, just be so bend over backwards and then how how gross it got the further it got involved. I think while I was watching that I was like that is what it felt like to me like so yes was it messed up at the beginning I I guess it was you know did I want to admit that not really because I had convinced my husband to move here to join this place and I had raised my four children in this place so I didn't really want to be a failure I didn't want to have to confess that this has been kind of jacked up since the beginning I just fell for a lie but I also was the the coercion and the the people that I was surrounded with, I wanted to be I wanted to be better. It was like it was the whole self-help theory is that so so every time I pointed out somehow something that I had done wrong, I wanted to be better. And so then I would just tell myself why why you doubt it is because you weren't better yesterday, you know, and so today you're going to be better and you're going to work harder and you're going to listen to the correction better and all that stuff. So, not only do you feel like you have to confess that you made a really bad decision 20 years ago, you you that's really hard to do that like I fell for crazy, but you also then have you're fearing losing your friends.

[00:26:59]You're fearing losing the connections you have that the busyiness and the things that you thought were so real.

[00:27:05]>> Yeah. The the crazy doesn't come out in the beginning. The crazy comes out later. It's it's like you're you little by little give power over yourself. You are subjecting yourself. You're putting yourself under and you're you're relinquishing. You're outsourcing your critical thinking. They had the same ideology of punishment and accountability. They would do penitence.

[00:27:30]You know, like like some people having to sit out from church because they're being punished because they haven't lost the weight and they don't want to make the organization look bad. There was all there was a lot done in the vow as well for image. They had to protect the image where remnant is definitely those those guidance ladies work day and night troubleshooting um putting out fires and >> Yep. I I think >> to protect the image.

[00:28:00]>> You just said something that I hadn't thought of really. The devotion, the people, the it's all surrounded in the same thing. You know, his started with a 5-day intensive. I think it's like probably what your first class would have been or something. And then it moved up so that you could move up and so you could know more. When you do something really bad or you don't follow through that, well, a lot of them just got kicked out. But then like one of them got put into a room in her in a house for two years.

[00:28:29]>> They convinced her to agree to go in the room, >> right? And they took everything from her >> and convinced her her family members to okay this just kind of like how we I would be convinced that I needed to take everything out like like Joseph and Sonia Smith take everything out of this child's room because a mattress is a privilege.

[00:28:51]>> I was told that multiple times. If my kids were, >> well, you hold the you hold the keys.

[00:28:57]You you own the car. You own the phone.

[00:29:00]You know, this is leverage. And so, we were being trained how to manipulate our children, >> how to control our children and how to control other people. Adam told me the other day, and he would be great at explaining this better than me, but he said, "It's not as shocking to me because it's all I knew." So he's like, "It must be really weird feeling to know that you knew this wasn't the right thing. This isn't the right feeling.

[00:29:26]Nobody should feel like this." And instead you you to the kids cuz I'm just like I cannot believe I didn't you know your life was so different. And he's like it we didn't know mom. We didn't know it was any different. So it wasn't like it's >> you didn't know there was a world out there where you get in trouble every day and you weren't in trouble every day.

[00:29:45]>> You didn't have to open. weren't going to hell every day >> and there wasn't a hierarchy. I think that's what the vow also showed was where you had someone to report to like you had to tell your mom, but then you had to the mom had to tell the small group leader and the small group leader had to tell Naomi and Amy and Tish and Aaron or whoever it was. And >> that was the other thing, the turn-in culture. They had a turn-in culture, too. Ratten people out.

[00:30:07]>> Grown ass adults ratting people out. And then and then they they want to they want you to feel bad so that you you feel like the failure so that you need them more.

[00:30:19]>> And you and you think it must be me. I >> and then each time you just think, well, if I was more devoted or if I spent more time or if I read more or if I if I did another class, I just need to read the love book one more time.

[00:30:31]>> You know, like I need I just need an accountability partner. I need a stricter accountability partner. I need to give my food. That was the other They fasted and they gave food logs because this is a mind control tactic.

[00:30:44]>> Yes, that's what they said.

[00:30:46]>> Uhhuh. It's a well-known mind control tactic to starve people.

[00:30:51]>> Uhhuh. And then >> calorie deficit >> and it makes them dependent and feel as though because you can't think. And >> brain fog is a real thing, people. It's the weirdest thing. I know. It's like turns out women over 40 need protein and metabolism is a real thing. Oh my gosh.

[00:31:07]It could be measured biometrically.

[00:31:09]>> I think that just the shock of that we could have fallen for something. I I think that's what watching this show pulled me away from myself and had me have moments where you guys that have never been in a cult are thinking, "Yeah, I just wouldn't do that." Like, I would not have joined. Her hair was really tough.

[00:31:29]>> I like the comments on Rod and Real or whatever like, "How could somebody be so stupid?" Yeah. And yeah, you're like when I I I thought HBO did a really good job because I I would have joined that cult just by watching the first the first episode, I've been like that sounds good to me.

[00:31:44]>> They had so much footage and stuff and so many hours of information that was there.

[00:31:48]>> Huge footage and so many hours of information, audio recordings of meetings, all the stuff.

[00:31:54]>> Mhm. It's good stuff. I think that >> it's crazy though that the leader was like, "Are you recording me? The future generations need to hear this." And I I think that they thought they were having fun. So like some people at the end of the show that had remained devoted, you know, they thought what they had done was right. So they they were like, I'm not having a bad life, you know, but but it was heart-wrenching to watch. What cuz cuz I think that's >> what the guy did was used people's that was on my list. you exploited someone's strengths and weaknesses and used it against them and used it for your own benefit and that I mean like probably more so you than me but your you were exploited R your b your gifts were used your strengths were used your weaknesses were used against you to keep you subjected >> and that's what they've done to everybody like I could list I don't really want to pinpoint people because I'm just hoping someday they're going to go okay yes I'm ready. Like, it's crazy in here. Just so you can >> I'm sure I'm sure Amy, Naomi, Tish, Aaron Moore, all think they're doing what's right, but you're harming people.

[00:33:08]You're psychologically messing with people. This is what the guy said at the end. It was like I when he he read this in court, this was what he read at the sentencing. You made us believe we were constantly failing a standard you were wholly incapable of keeping yourself. You wanted to destabilize our psyches as much as possible so that in our growing psychosis, you would be the savior watching us only get worse and worse.

[00:33:36]That resonated with me so much. If you think you're crazy, you're not crazy, but you are in an environment that's making you crazy.

[00:33:45]>> Mhm. What one of the things that they said too was that um the antidote for pride is humiliation. And I was >> That sounds familiar.

[00:33:53]>> I was literally told that. I was I was told that, you know, you're going to be humbled and humiliated. More years of humiliation than humbling. And it's part of what makes you better.

[00:34:04]>> It's abuse is what it is. That's abuse.

[00:34:07]And churches, real churches don't do that.

[00:34:09]>> No. Huh.

[00:34:10]>> I mean, real churches don't do that. And people do not have that much overreach into somebody's life and they don't that is abuse. I'm just sorry.

[00:34:21]>> One of the things that Keith said at the end was synthesis. Someone needs to speak truth over the exaggerated craziness. And I cannot tell you how many times that that's what truth rises to the top was instituted for by Gwen because she was trying to push down what she considered the exaggerated craziness. And that's what Elizabeth's been trying to do too and all those people when realistically it's not exaggerated craziness. It's real. It's actually happening. What we are talking about not one thing we have said here is a lie. It actually happened. You know >> and while we're at it, the church paid $20,000 of your tithe money to promote the truth rises to the top campaign.

[00:35:01]>> Yes, they did.

[00:35:02]>> Yeah.

[00:35:02]>> Yeah.

[00:35:03]>> That's where your money's going. If you're struggling to live in Brentwood and have two jobs a piece and barely making it and you're giving tithe money to the church, your money is going to stuff like that and also to pay for housekeeping for Elizabeth, for the Stites family, to pay for yard work for these families that are high up that have the financial means to pay for their own housekeeper and have the financial means to pay for their own yard to be done, but their own dayare or or gifts given to the leader like a side by side or other things like that like >> this is where your tithe money is going.

[00:35:46]>> Yes. Money was spent on this website creation to that the marketing team did to try to get it to where when you Googled Remnant Fellowship that the first suggestion was no longer Remnant Fellowship Cult and it it was $20,000.

[00:36:03]They paid 10,000 for Gwen Chamblain, Truth Rises to the Top. It was called, the company was called Reputation Defender and I was part of that and they made these goofy websites that were just it was probably like AI back then, you know, ver like kind of regurgitating something we already had sent them and they just rewrote it or put different pictures or whatever and it was it was just the same thing over and over again to get a different website so that maybe when you searched it would come to the top of the page or whatever. But yes, that money was spent on that and time was spent on that. lots of time and lots of people and there was so many initiatives that we would we would call people. We would have our small groups get on and search and click on the Remnant Fellowship actual website so that the Remnant Fellowship Cult wasn't the first search. And so I have like a note that of the day that we were notified that Remnant Fellowship Cult was no longer the first search. And what in the world was I thinking that I never thought why is Remnant Fellowship Cult?

[00:37:05]Why is the Why do I type in REM N fellowship and the first thing that pops up on your Google search is cult? Why?

[00:37:15]Because it is and that people have written about it and talked about it.

[00:37:20]It's not exaggerated craziness. It's it's reality and real and you don't have to feel smothered and controlled and all the things in there. So that's I I just I I can't I I participated in so much of that. I mean I was helping with marketing so we thought it was a good idea cuz truth would rise to the top and you know truth wasn't truth rises to the top when it's truth not not when it's fabricated and created and paid to do it. You know, like influencers become famous because they had good stuff that was influential and it it they showed something that everybody wanted to remodel their living room like this and it just worked that day. It was the day it worked. And it doesn't happen because they made up stuff or that I mean maybe influencers do. I have no idea. I don't know how to do that. I I know that what we were doing was falsely boosting the internet so that when you searched you would never see the word cult in your search.

[00:38:22]>> There was another one another parallel that they talked about on the vow was a lot of time was wasted just talking about his ideas. Huge task groups just doing research for him. like they would have meetings for hours and hours about something and try and do something and then we're going to just go a different direction, you know, like you put so much effort into something and Gwen decided, you know, >> we're not doing that today. I remember just so hopefully someday I'll have Michael on my podcast, but he we would work so hard in a meeting on marketing something and we would just all be in there working to death and just researching, finding stuff, everybody on the marketing team and then we would be so gung-ho to start it the next day and then we I would reach out and say to Amy or whatever and say, "Hey, we're ready to go. We have a whole plan." And she's like, "Oh, I'm sorry. She called she woke up in the middle of the night last night and God showed her that that wasn't the best way to go about this.

[00:39:17]that we weren't gonna that's not what we're gonna do today. And I was like, okay, you know, like we're the church of change. We can just fly like the leaves.

[00:39:26]>> That's conditioning.

[00:39:26]>> Yeah. Church of change.

[00:39:28]>> We can just do like >> turn on a dime. The leaves do, you know, we just go this direction or go that direction or whatever. But but I am stubborn, you know? So I would be like, what? You know, we we invest all this time and there were times that I would call other people on the marketing team and be like, can you believe we like spent all this time? I mean, we were up all night ignoring our family. We didn't cook dinner. We didn't do anything. But it was just time suck. Time wasted on It was time wasted.

[00:39:56]>> Maybe we'll have to have like Buffy or some of those people on sometime to talk about all the research that they were doing.

[00:40:02]>> Yep. There was always something going on so that we could figure it out. Gwen Gwen having them research other cults >> or me personally getting to know what we considered Gordon Melton, the the cult expert that was supposed to make us look like we weren't a cult, but he's not even Google. His name's Gordon Melton, and he actually studies vampires. And >> but you paid him to say >> Yeah. Every time he came to town.

[00:40:30]>> Did he get paid?

[00:40:32]>> Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:40:33]>> The church paid him to say we weren't a cult.

[00:40:35]>> No, not only did they pay him, they they paid him a fee, but they paid for his flight, his hotel, his entertainment, his dinner, everything. And they had it all set up for people to go take him around some of the old he was older and they would have like some of the experienced crowd, take him around and take him to bookstores and make him normal.

[00:40:53]>> He's a vampire expert. [clears throat] >> He was He's on the on the Remnant Fellowship website. You can go to the where they counteract the HBO documentary The Way Down and he's on there to show that we're not a cult. So if anybody wants to go see that, you can see him and then go Google him, check him out. Okay. One of the other things was feelings, emotions, and physical pain are bad and it's selffocused and you're supposed to deny that like you know you you're not allowed to be sad, you're not allowed to grieve, you're not allowed to talk about your problems or that's selffocus. You can't you can only be happy and smile and that's it.

[00:41:31]Nothing but joy but everything else is bad. And you have to so you have to deny your feelings. You have to deny even physical pain. I remember Gwen talking about to the woman like how dare you >> manipulate people because you have PMS.

[00:41:47]>> You know you need to suck it up and deny yourself. You know like and so in this cult same things there are that was the other thing. There are no ultimate victims.

[00:41:57]>> Uhhuh.

[00:41:58]>> You are not a victim.

[00:41:59]>> You are not a victim. They actually said that.

[00:42:01]>> That is a control tactic to silence victims. Just telling you guys.

[00:42:05]>> Yep.

[00:42:06]>> You're not a victim.

[00:42:07]>> It's interesting when you watch it because you're like >> people, some people are victims. Child abuse is legit. And those people are victims. And >> children.

[00:42:17]>> Children. Yes. Child abuse and molestation. They're victims. Don't tell them they're not a victim. Let's validate people's feelings.

[00:42:25]>> All the women that were in abusive relationships or just down >> Oh my gosh. How many of the Bula women were in abusive relationships? That group was private so you wouldn't know the crap that they were being told. I actually got to go one time and I wasn't supposed to be there. But I had a recording of that too. I think I I >> maybe >> I think I deleted it. I think that um the shocking stuff the the reason we even watched it I think somebody started watching it and then I knew it was on and I watched a different the one with Leah Reiny about Scientology. I watched it before the HBO Weown documentary came out as an as a representative of Remnant and Weown because I wanted to see what was our documentary going to be like what were they going to say? How was this going to be and I was just shocked watching that one and I don't know if I just didn't watch the vow because I would it would have been well I didn't have time.

[00:43:26]>> I didn't even hear about it in the culture.

[00:43:28]>> We were so busy. Mhm. [clears throat] >> All we did was have meetings and talk on the phone and listen and just put your AirPods in while you walked around because you had to talk and discuss and I mean I was on phone calls and things discussing who dates who and which boyfriend's the best boyfriend and it was ridiculous about other people's children. It's crazy. I can talk a whole thing about that.

[00:43:51]>> So that's another thing where I mean maybe you weren't sitting in a circle around Elizabeth but she kept you on phone calls for hours and hours. to discuss is one boyfriend better than another boyfriend for grace, >> right? I think that people forget and I think that the heart of a person in there that's trying to keep it going is it's it's a good heart. You want what you think is good and that you've given your whole life to to be good. You want it to continue. Nobody wants to say actually I'm just going to give up and let's just fail. I mean nobody wants to do that or say that. So, you are trying so hard to keep this thing that it's not working and it's messed up and it's crazy, but you're just trying to keep it going so bad. And I I think >> yeah, you're you're facing an entire breakdown of your your entire belief system, everything you've invested in, everything you've sacrificed for. And what if it's wrong, >> right?

[00:44:49]>> What if you know >> Yeah, it's it's hard. It was hard for us to leave. It was hard for them to leave.

[00:44:55]It wasn't an easy thing, you know.

[00:44:57]>> It was hard and it's still kind of daunting sometimes. And so I get it. I get it. I But but I'm so glad to be fed and to have places to go to learn and to hear fresh and new information. And you know, I I think that I think it's just a time. There's there's it can't continue, you guys, you know, like it is. So >> the reason it this keeps going on is because people don't want to go on the record for exposing it. That was one thing they said. People are afraid.

[00:45:28]>> They have family in they don't want to their relationships are already being held hostage and >> um the family members that are inside are cutting people off. They don't want to go on record because you know one they could be embarrassed that they supported it at one time. It is embarrassing.

[00:45:46]>> Or they're afraid. The the fear is like an actual physical response from all of the conditioning over the years. Like I remember you being afraid like afraid of getting in trouble when rationally.

[00:45:59]That's it. It you know it's still it's still it was still like a trigger type thing >> when or even like me apologizing to somebody I didn't text back yesterday cuz I don't want to get in trouble. Like I'm trying to avoid getting in trouble.

[00:46:11]So I'm going to cover my bases. Like I'm so sorry. Sorry, I didn't mean to do that.

[00:46:15]>> Yeah, this too like your boundaries are completely eroded like they chip away at your boundaries. This especially in this Nexium cult, you know, basically, you know, you had to be submissive to the authority and and you weren't allowed to set boundaries, >> right?

[00:46:32]>> And then they would question your devotion if you set boundaries, like if you said no about something or if you didn't feel right about something. Mhm.

[00:46:41]That's what happened to me at one of the things at the end that I think the the words said by leadership was that I got my feelings hurt. I heard from someone because a lot of my friends left after that. But so they told me what they said. But but my my feelings weren't hurt. I was frustrated that I was that I was being said to be negative when I was just sharing reality. Like this is weird. No one wants to go. Her Facebook page is not even public. This isn't helping truth rise to the top. There's not a church steeple in sight. There's no scriptures and there are no of her children, no pictures, her husband that died in a plane crash. This cannot be good for the people. But I didn't even say it like that. I just said if she could just put some pictures of her kids like cooking or doing something like that, it would be so >> And that I'm not telling I'm not I'm not calling people and telling them that they have to go on there. Do you know that they're stalking your social media pages and if you didn't like hurt things? Or do you know that they told people that didn't have social media to like that they needed to create one or create one for their spouse without their spouse knowing about it? Like that is control that churches don't do that stuff, >> right? I I remember going to a church and then getting to talk to one of the pastors as I was like enjoying it more.

[00:48:04]or I wanted I had a million questions and I was so nervous and I was like afraid to get involved and or to go more than three times where they might think I'm you know involved. I don't know. It was just it was so weird. And I said, "How do you do social media?" And they were like, "What? Like what do you mean?" "Well, we have like a social media person, you know, that posted."

[00:48:21]I'm like, "No, like do does it matter what I put on my social media?" And she was just like, "No." Like why? What are you talking about? She could not wrap her mind realistically around that I had been monitored, told, corrected, sent emails, sent texts, sent that I had done it. I had done it to a million other people. I'd done it to Julie, to her kids, to >> Do you know what kind of manpower it takes to monitor people's every person's social media? Like no less than five times I got text messages about something Jenna liked on social media.

[00:48:58]Like she liked somebody with a bathing suit, a two-piece.

[00:49:01]>> She liked Taylor Swift one time. She liked a post from Taylor Swift. Her We got a phone call. Her and Emily got into trouble. They were crying for liking something from Taylor Swift. But it's okay for all those people to go to Taylor Swift's concerts. But >> no, it wasn't okay. We got corrected on what we wore to Taylor Swift's concert.

[00:49:18]>> Okay.

[00:49:18]>> Oh, yeah. now. But the manpower, I'm telling you, there was a whole entire probably still is a whole entire signal group of volunteer people that are called social media moderators and they will if anybody they moderate all the social media, >> but they don't call it that anymore.

[00:49:37]They don't.

[00:49:37]>> No, cuz I was involved.

[00:49:39]>> I was on the moderators thing and >> that was just for way down Facebook.

[00:49:44]>> That was for people that actually were trying to seek help. What we had were text threads that had better names like bird dogs.

[00:49:51]>> That reminds me of the um security thing.

[00:49:55]>> Yeah, we have to tell that later. We got to tell that one. You got to save that.

[00:49:59]>> People have different categories of >> I'm sure I'm in the worst category at this point. I have I'm not going to tear down >> raven or something [laughter] >> probably. I But what we the the whole deal here is that we wanted to share that this is obviously an issue. It's a real life thing. These things are way too >> I encourage you to go watch that if you don't believe us. Check it out for yourself.

[00:50:24]>> See for yourself. And if you've left and and you still are like, I just don't even know. I just want to ignore it. I just want to like wish it would all go away. It does go away as you get healthy and figure out, okay, well, when you talk about it and somebody validates, yeah, that was crazy. Or like when Julie will say to me, um, "Yeah, that was conditioning, Ra. She was already conditioning you." I'm like, "It was."

[00:50:48]But then I don't feel quite so stupid that 10 years later I was really doing everything because I'd been conditioned since day one, you know, to to honor her and to trust her. But we could go on and on and we we would love We should just do it where we stop it. We play it and stop it and say, "Here's another one of this."

[00:51:09]>> Yeah. We find every clip that's just so much like it. But we we really are praying for everybody to find a way out and to just to be free and to to get to live life. And our kids probably say it best that you know they they're they're free like like it's they are happy and and like at peace and there's some things that are hard and it's hurtful and you know missing your friends or knowing that you got a friend that's probably going to get married soon and you won't be invited or whatever but you thought you would be their best man your whole life or whatever. That stuff's hard. It's weird.

[00:51:45]>> Yeah. Your whole life is hijacked.

[00:51:48]>> Yeah, it is. But the freedom and knowing that you've done what's right. That God makes no mistakes in that for sure. And I know that that was quoted frequently there. But but probably more than not, we do the bless not cursed hashtag, you know, to each other like my kids will text me like something happened really awesome and they'll be like blessed not cursed. You know, you you you believe all that was programmed into us to believe it was we were going to fail.

[00:52:12]Yeah.

[00:52:13]>> And that it was going to be a curse. The framework is if you leave the church, you're leaving God. If you, you know, the blessings and the curses, choose for yourself, you know, life or death. And so if you left, if you left remnant, you're choosing death. And that's not true.

[00:52:30]>> Yeah.

[00:52:31]>> We're not cursed.

[00:52:32]>> And I think that it's hard to >> We're not rejecting God, right? Let me just tell you that. I'm not rejecting God. And God is even bigger in my life than he was in the remnant. I I believe too that that they say that the narrative has been all along since I ever was involved in any kind of leadership that a person that leaves and says I've been reading the Bible more than ever or I'm at more peace.

[00:52:57]>> My marriage is better than ever >> or I'm, you know, I'm at more pe I have more peace than I ever have. I'm sleeping better than I ever have or whatever that they're just making that up because Yeah. They're delusional.

[00:53:07]>> Yeah. They're because their life is so crazy.

[00:53:09]>> They're deceived. The veil is dropped.

[00:53:11]But honestly, that's why I think we just have to keep coming back to this is that I feel like I was sad that there were people that left in 2010 and if if maybe if they would have told the story, if they would have had a place for me to go listen to it, we probably would.

[00:53:29]>> People said they they tried to tell I remember Natalie Travoli. I am very, very sorry, but I look back and the Travolles tried to tell us everything about stuff that was going on, really bad stuff that was going on, and we couldn't hear them.

[00:53:45]>> We could not hear them, and we turned them in. So, I'm sorry for that. And I forgive people that turned me in. It's It's the culture that you were I forgive you, R. I forgive you, Ra. I forgive all the other people that turned me in. It is the culture that you're a part of.

[00:54:01]You're being used.

[00:54:03]>> You're providing information to the leaders that they could use against somebody.

[00:54:07]>> I thought of this the other night. Sorry to interrupt you.

[00:54:10]>> You're not an interrupt. Hey, the people that watch this, maybe we've drugg it on too long here, but the people that watch this, do you feel like you should tell on us or tell that you watch this and they're say that Ra and Julie are having saying lies about the remnant on a podcast or do you feel like you watch this and now you're scared that it might be true? or you're you're sitting there thinking I hope nobody sees me watching this like you have it on your phone or you just listen to it on audio because you don't want anyone to know that you have listened to these words but if you are doing that that is not a right feeling nobody should have to feel >> someone asked me can everybody see if I watch the reels on rod andreel or just the person that owns the someone that's a member right now said can everybody see if I view content or just the person that has the content.

[00:55:02]>> Yep. Just >> cuz they're afraid. I remember one time I accidentally clicked like on something on Michael Shamlin's page and I was like, "Oh, God. Oh my god." You know, somebody >> Oh, I've turned people in that's done it because >> Or even I accidentally clicked like on a pastor.

[00:55:17]>> Oh yeah. That was just like >> another Christian speaker that was talking about the love of God and I was afraid I was going to get found out.

[00:55:25]>> That is not normal. I'm just telling you, normal churches don't do that.

[00:55:31]>> Yeah.

[00:55:31]>> It's a high control environment that you're a part of >> that you've been conditioned. It's not your fault. It's it's what we were done.

[00:55:38]It was >> controlled by fear. You're being controlled by your own fears.

[00:55:43]>> When we first left, Julie was training to do this business model and she was in this business thing and it is so much like the Keith Reeri thing, the vow.

[00:55:54]It's so much like Remnant. It was just coercion and manipulation to you were recruited and influenced and all the things they used everything to get you in. What was the ABC?

[00:56:07]>> Oh, it Yes. And it was how to sk if you have an idea of business how to scale your business. And so it was ABC attract befriend convert. You need a painful problem that people are willing to pay for the solution. It has to be a permanent solution and not just a supplement.

[00:56:25]>> That's it. And that is exactly what they said on the voucher.

[00:56:28]>> You need a you need a face to your brand, not a nameless, faceless brand.

[00:56:33]So, you need a face with a backstory.

[00:56:36]And um you have to believe that you were called to this. And I was like, my gosh, Gwen had an idea that was common back in that day. intuitive eating or you know what are some of the other ones that were very similar intermittent fasting intermittent fasting hunger and fullness whatever there were other people doing that even Christian programs doing that she just knew she learned she probably took a business class in college and learned how to scale your business how to grow it >> and I think that's why it became more and more clear as time progressed because maybe she wasn't as talented at the business model anymore and and maybe Maybe like the women know how to do it because they learned from Gwen, but maybe Elizabeth wasn't as good at it, you know, or something and that's why it became more clear to us as time progressed, you know, we were like, "Okay, this the business model is falling apart, you know, this is messed up." But anyway, you do what you want to do, you do you. We are going to do us.

[00:57:34]we but if you listen to this and it it's helpful or you have questions or whatever I have had tons of people call me and not and I haven't shared who they are or what they've said. I have people I talked to that you would be shocked they left years ago and that I would have told >> hopefully someday they'll be on your podcast >> and I I would have told people back then I would never speak to that person you know because they had slandered Gwen and >> as what you were told they I question every narrative now I don't believe every narrative and pe you know like Ron would say I don't know I all I heard about that person was such and such and I was like yeah but that was the narrative that you were that we were all told about >> because if we would have gotten close to the person. So, like if Julie wouldn't have come and talked to me the day after we left and had her list of questions to ask me, if she would have been scared to get in trouble or scared of me because she had already heard Ron's crazy, she she would have never come to me. She would have we would have never discussed that and she I mean, she would have figured that out cuz she was figuring it out any she'd figured it out before me.

[00:58:36]But but I think the it's it's just such a mind game. I don't know. It's it's such mind control and I I do believe that it's very much correlates to other cults that we've all heard about along the way and so we're just learning more and more and we're glad to be out of there. So we we we're thankful for time to get to share with y'all and there I know there's tons of questions there there was this we want to get some other people on too but there was my very first podcast those four podcast one of them I asked you know is there something else you want to hear or you know is there something that's interesting to you and I cannot tell you how many people there's there was a common thread a lot of people wanted to know about weddings slashmarriages divorces so but but but a lot of them want to know how the weddings are set up and then a lot of people will know about Gwen's hair and a lot of people.

[00:59:28]>> That was a full-time job for you.

[00:59:29]>> Yeah, it was. And so there's a lot of things that we can share. There'll be more coming soon. So anyway, thanks for joining us. Have a good time. [music] Thank you for listening to The Way of Escape. Follow along for new episodes as [music] we uncover truth, heal from spiritual abuse, and find [music] lasting freedom. You too can find a way out. A way of escape.

[00:59:57]>> [music]