The New US Immigration Policy on “Green Card” | Attorney Sarjo Barrow

Added: 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]Washington and welcome back to another episode of the band dialogue. It's with me Ibrahimo and today uh we're starting slightly I mean late. I was meant to have some gentlemen as I advertise but I do not want to continue to keep you all waiting when I had given you a time in terms of when we intended to start but all of them are not here yet. Um, I was meant to have, excuse me, Melvin and also Omar Malmo Sambu, both of them to join me to talk about the nomination of the Inspector General of Police uh, for the Father Network um, heroes award ceremony that's coming up and I've sent both of them the link. I haven't seen them yet. I'm hoping that they will join join me as soon as practicable uh, so we can have this conversation. But if they don't want this, we can have uh other conversations that are going on in the Gambia too and I'm happy to adjust accordingly. Uh but I'm just going to wait for them a little bit to see whether any of them would come up. Um again, we meant to have Omar Malmo together with Melvin with me. I've sent both of them the link to join me for us to have a conversation on the ongoing IGP uh nomination controversy for the Heroes Award, but major follow. So, I'm just going to give them a couple of minutes to see if they join me. That was also meant to have a surprise appearance for Sergio Baro who is an attorney here and a former judge that he was meant to join us to talk about the recent immigration policy from US immigration service you know court to break all of that down for us. So you know again I apologize for the late start. I hope my colleagues can join me as soon as possible for us to have a dialogue, but if they don't, then we're going to adjust because there's definitely a lot to go through. There's a lot to have conversations about, too.

[00:01:56]Malmo fell a message real quick. So, I'm just going to listen to that and then we're going to continue.

[00:02:03]So, stick around all of you and we will be right back.

[00:02:41]Anyway, I just got notification from Malmo that he will join me in a bit. Um, Melvin I I don't know. I've sent him the link a while back. Hopefully, he's also able to join me. Uh, but you know, if you're in the comment section, too, you want to come up to have a conversation on some of the issues that we want to talk about, too. Feel free to leave a message in the comment section and I'll send you a link to join us because again Saturdays are mostly bandabas and I like to open this for all of us to be able to have conversations and dialogues and things that are going on in the Gambia.

[00:03:15]Now obviously there are big things happening especially from our neighboring country Sineagal which we had intended intended to talk about also here in the United States just as of yesterday a big immigration policy came out that radically shifts in terms of adjustment of status in the United States and what that meant and I've invited my good brother Sajanan to break that down for us uh on what that means um and uh together with the IGP nomination controversy that also we know uh is shaping the conversations around our social media. So there's a lot to talk about. So if you're definitely here and you want to be part of that dialogue, you know, I don't mind. Just send me a message or leave a message in the comment section and we'll make it happen.

[00:04:07]Let me message S real quick and see one one more time.

[00:04:13]Okay.

[00:04:17]So, Saj will join us in about 10 minutes and then, you know, we'll try to have this conversation going. But again, thank you all for being here. Once again, uh thank you for being part of the dialogue, being part of the conversation. I think there are important things to talk about and I've tried to bring the people that really matter cuz you know my opinions don't matter so much but the people that really matter that have expertise on certain areas.

[00:04:42]to break certain things down for us, you know. So, it is my hope that they will join me as soon as possible. If they don't, we'll still make it work. But enough respect.

[00:04:54]Seu Seiko, thank you for being here.

[00:04:56]Thank you for being here. But again, you know, there's a lot of things going on.

[00:04:58]Yesterday, I conducted a Tik Tok live and we had a dialogue about the viral video that accuses Gambian men of being lazy uh compared to our West African counterparts. And I thought that was pretty um interesting. There are a lot of people that say different perspectives as to what they think, whether there is any substance to what the individual said or whether there was just an overgeneralization without substance. Uh in fact, whether there is any evidence to suggest that Gambians are lazy among other things. Uh so I I really enjoyed that and it was also my hope that today that we could have some bit of that conversation about what do you think Are we in fact lazy compared to our other West African counterparts or that is just a fallacy? There is no truth to it. Let me know in the comment section.

[00:05:49]Um but also in terms of the IGP's nomination considering IGP uh is being the one that oversaw the arrest the rearrest of Usenu Bjang when Usenu was acquitted and discharged recently and now the same IGP of police has been nominated for an award for the heroes award and you know depending on who is arguing it I think people have different sides of looking at it there are some who will tell you that is selective outrage you know in terms of just not talking about other issues and We're talking about the IDP's nomination and there are some who will tell you that is no way uh on that this IGP should be the one to really win uh an award or even be considered for an award. So I thought that's an important conversation that we could have but also you know what is happening in our neighboring country Sagal is pretty telling and very interesting too. uh Usman Sonko and Jamai Basu Jamai have finally separated uh officially uh also dissolved the Seneagalles government and what we're seeing now I think is something that all of us have been expecting for a while because it's been brewing and it has finally come to come to life because at the end of the day um you know this is not new and it's not also unique to just Sagal. We've seen this happen um all around Africa including our own little Gambia where President Baro and his political godfather as he described him Davo had a political separation in the past and then eventually formed his political party after starting as a political movement to what we now have as the national people's party which has become the biggest political force in the Gambia. So Sagal fang is not any different. Sagal for a while.

[00:07:35]when Jamai is Jamai Moy Jama we used to remember that and Jay precisely became president in the name of Osman because Usman and Jamai both um you know after they got released I think campaigned together 10 days after they've been released before the elections and eventually won the elections and so far I think this has been in a way for a lack of better word it has been philosophized and pro prophesized that is going to happen and it did end up happening finally as of Friday. You know, I think these are even though I think fundamentally and philosophy wise too, they all come from the same party.

[00:08:15]Uh they all work in the private sector.

[00:08:18]uh and then they all part of very important figures in past defe especially Usman Seko and then you know for a while we've seen how their public engagements and interactions and the criticisms from people that look at Usman Seo as you know sort of somewhat a turbulent figure this radical figure who would not bend to any form of pressure especially from the west and Sagal is experiencing an unprecedented amount of debt crisis which is not entirely uh the fault of this current government because they've inherited a lot of that problem.

[00:08:54]If you want to satisfy everyone and you become a hypocrite, I don't even know what you're talking about Muhammad. But you know I Sagal is experiencing almost 10 I think 32% to I mean to its GDP which is an astronomical number and they also have about 1.3 billion of their part of their loan scheme from the IMF that is also been stopped u because of some of the findings that they've you know obviously discovered from the current government which has nothing to do with this current government right from the past government which has nothing to do with this current government. So there's a lot going on in there. Um so it will be interesting to see what comes out in the next few days and weeks and months to come. Sagal is already negotiation with IMF to make sure that they still have access to some of those uh resources to alleviate the depth crisis that they having right now because synagogues are struggling just like Gambians are struggling. I think people generally in most economies are just struggling and sank on one hand is telling them no we're not going to acquisense or agree to the conditions that the international financial institutions are giving us and then s I mean Jamai is more st like Jay has been um I don't get man, you know. So, Omar, are you here?

[00:10:50]Omar, listen.

[00:10:51]But hopefully he's back on also, you know, you know, is it's changing at such a fast pace. It's insane.

[00:11:08]I cannot even tell you even for some of us who uh um you know train legal persons, it's hard to keep up, you know, and it's hard to understand it. And so I think to to help a lot of people understand you know, explain in terms that I think a lot of people would benefit, especially what all of that means because it's a significant change, you know, it's going to affect a lot of people, you know, and putting before anybody makes very rash decisions, I think it's important to understand what the policy means. But Omar, welcome.

[00:12:15]Okay, that's gone.

[00:12:16]>> Yeah.

[00:12:18]>> Okay.

[00:12:23]He just gone, >> which is funny because and then now I'm just like, okay, cool.

[00:12:37]Are you guys you want to dialogue or you going to publicly go after each other?

[00:12:42]What's going on?

[00:12:45]That's not so you know IG nomination is certainly where I want us to start right obviously you guys all of you know Omar you know we're here every Saturday and the reason Omar usually joins us from the car is because but he still makes the effort to be here uh on Saturday so I just want to acknowledge how appreciate I am that he's always available for us to dialogue. But recently controversy came up on Gambian social media as it relates to the IGP of police and other security off security leaders in the Gambia who are nominated for a category in the fat networks um heroes award ceremony. Um and the inspector general of police currently who also oversaw the the rearrest of us Bojang is one of those figures who is nominated for that award. And so the question is, is the IGP deserving of that nomination or is that nomination not warranted at all? And that's one of the things that we really want to dive into today and we've sort of because Malmo had a disagreement with uh Melvin Roberts and we've invited Melvin to come and he had agreed to come but for some reason I've sent him the link and he's not here. He's not also communicating. I hope he's okay and everything is well with him but left for us to start the conversation from there. Mo, if you can tell us, you know, what is your position? Why do you make the case that IGP should not even be considered uh for this nomination at all? And what is your point of difference, if any, with people like Melvin who are on the other side of the argument?

[00:14:31]>> All right. Thank you very much. You know, I I I had actually taken a you know, a decision that I'm not even talking about the police again because the police is an institution. is not an individual and again you know uh to avoid people misconstring the perception that you hate this particular person or you dislike this person that is very common of Gambians that you disagree with people on a particular subject they think it's you know out of malice out of hate or out of dislike or it is a constant vilification of an individual or you knowh disagreeing to something is basically what they would refer to as you know simplistic thinking and all of that yong I don't I don't get into all of that but my position is and remains that the position of the IGP is not CD Mutar as a person this is a phenomenal person allrounded very experienced you know officer who had worked you know several years in the immigration has heard a lot of international experience even within the police force I do believe he's you know doing one thing or another that would deserve commendation but in the generality of that position position and of course the leadership of the police force not him as an individual but the trajectory of the Gambia police force giving its leadership that accolade is it simply and squarely you know validating everything that the police are doing in the Gambia. That's my position.

[00:16:14]Moreover, if you look at it from the 365 days that has passed, it's within those days that we've we over you know, we saw you know not just the rear arrest of us that was illegal and and and the sister and and the subsequent you know you know return of this personnel into mile two prisons without any court order. You know that in itself that alone for me it's something that the entire police force should be giving a red flag to. So when I speak of the force I'm not talking to an individual because this individual heads this institution.

[00:16:46]Therefore he is the reflection of the entire institution. So what people do on the ground they either they do it on his behalf or not. He is directly or indirectly the responsible authority of that institution.

[00:17:00]>> Mhm. Now where you give let's say you know we are giving you an award of you know the best alo in the community that means everything that is happening in is well it's good and well we will not agree to that because but the whole point now becomes that not only was this rearrest that is in my view illegal and of course you know the inhuman treatment of those people their subjugation and public embarrassment but within this period we we've seen a lot of young women being killed in the streets of the Gambia that is not security now our internal security should be led by these police the police force in spec to be specific so now tell me what exactly have the police force done count them in numbers and tell me this is deserving of a heroes award we've seen how They continue to maltreat the young people of these countries whose only crime are and not limited to asking for you know transparency and accountability. You know gathering to celebrate an anniversary going out to demand from their officials you know you know you know matters relating to corruption allegations here and there.

[00:18:19]But the police continue to clamp down on them trying to shut them down trying to actually you know you know you know make sure there are no descending views in this country that people must all become conformist and we've seen how the rights of these personnel have been abused time without number that these people are arrested persecuted and so on so it's not about the individual I have no no look if we are to tell the truth to each other you know >> I even feel like you're being patronizing because suddenly in public service you know the same way we try to hold bar accountable for some of the things that happened alamakunda in terms of corruption allegations or you know malpractices public malpractice among other things I think it's also fairly legitimate to also question if the leader of the Gambia police force is deserving of any award or some recognition or even nomination because if it is in your tenure that certain discret certain discretion or arbitrariness happens then certainly I think That question is legitimate for people to ask including the arrest of an individual who has been acquitted and discharged by a court of law.

[00:19:26]>> I let me let me let me honestly tell you that I know the IGP had no hand in that rearrest whatever you know there are powers and there are superior powers in this country. You know the person who is the most disgusting in my view terrible person in Bar's cabinet is basically his minister of interior and this person had served as IGP in this country very condescending and compromising of the current IGP and knows it and everybody in the country knows it but whatever because they fear people that they cannot tell them the truth all the criminal criminality and banditry in this country are masterminded by people in our uniform.

[00:20:04]or some of them who had who had just left the force and of course they are giving other positions in the country those people must have minded the arrest of these persons but IGP the responsibility is not on the minister of interior to demand the arrest of anybody it's on the soldiers of the IGP >> yes >> so the IGP in my view should even arrest the minister of interior because beyond just the arrest of these persons a lot of things are happening in this country that that person has a hand simply because maybe our relatives or you know you know one region or whatever when in reality we know the things they are doing to the nation. These people are destroying this country beyond repair. They run you know you know vehicle companies when in reality they were just police officers. They actually mastermind the killing of their own men.

[00:20:58]They mastermind the real arrest of people and they continue to subjugate our people simply because they think they have position of authority. So that is why in my view the current IGP of the Gambia police force need to stand up to his grounds. He need to stand up to his ground to ensure that the people that are even working within and around him he needs to know who is right and who is wrong because some of them are only there to compromise his leadership and we cannot actually you know you know give accolades to such a leadership that under which the some of these things are happening.

[00:21:26]go be cool. It has been a terrible institution and this person had you know in my view you know taken over a very very very very [ __ ] institution in terms of leadership that was completely compromised and destroyed because its former leaders were people who run drug cartels you know you know you know you know deals in this country.

[00:21:52]So if you come into an institution like that, >> yeah, I feel like you know all of what all of what you're saying I don't disagree with. I think my only point of difference is the fact that you know the same way you know when we we establish a TRC part of the problem that we figured out was because a lot of people were arguing oh and we had to go execute it and we totally negate the fact that look you have an option to either do it or not to do it. you are under no duty or no obligation to execute an unlawful order.

[00:22:24]Right? You and I know that very well.

[00:22:25]And so I feel like the IGP of police always have an option. one to either refuse to execute that order or two to actually walk away resign in protest and let the public know because I think also we need to interrogate that the problem in Gambia is because so and so instead of just having some level of spine and dignity and walking away we want to continue being there because you know all of the other opportunities but I don't think it's Right? Because I don't as much as you try to pin it on the interior and other just bunch of people me and they are not really good people. The IGP I think also had to take some responsibility because >> again again if somebody who is the minister in a way there are other people that believe that this particular person as IGP was never a police officer is dealing with the interior is dealing with some other people within the police directly and of course before the IGP would know they went on to execute a particular order and then of course if if I am the IGP and I came out to say you know what this is not right should they actually resend this decision and it comes to to to that rescending or whatever. But the whole point is I'm not even making any excuse for anybody until the whole point has been the police as an institution from its former leadership to this inherited leadership of you know you know CD Mutar or whatever I have nothing against the person but the totality of you know the things that are happening within the institution. I have every every problem with it and I have every red flag towards it aspect giving you know the police force as an institution an award.

[00:24:01]This award is not being given to Siri Mutar as the person he is. He's is basically as the head of the institution and the head of the institution here we are talking about what the head of the Gambia police force. So that means the entire police force is being represented in this case. So whatever that we say the police are heroes, it trickles down all to to the the most junior person in the police force, including those who are torturing and maltreating people in the streets, including those who are actually rear arresting people and of course disobeying court orders, including people who are sending people back to Mile 2 without any court order.

[00:24:32]So why would I actually glorify people who disrespect our laws, who are expected to be people who should be abiding by the laws and of course you know the custodians of those laws because they should be law enforcers. So law enforcers turn out to be law breakers and you want us to give them you know you know you know you know accolades and of course give them heroic awards in in our country. What kind of a country are we turning into? So it's not about the person of the IGP but it's about the totality of the institution that is leading and the activities of the personnel under his command. So if that command responsibility trickles down from the eye because he's the head.

[00:25:03]So you cannot say that oh we are giving the award to the most junior person in the in the in the in the in the police force. If you are giving the police force, you give to the its leadership and the current leader there is IDP.

[00:25:13]That is why his name is there. So it's not because they like the person or the people think he's doing something extraordinary as an individual. No, it's the totality of the institution. That is why you look at the other heads that are on that you know whatever you know poster is the immigration and of course you know the fire department and they do not put their junior staff. They put the heads of the institution. So they are a reflection of those institutions. So if you are going to vote for these people or you are going to give them awards, you look at the totality of the activities of this institution towards the public and the delivery of service to the people of this country.

[00:25:56]People must have that guts to tell people the truth irrespective of who they think they are. So it's not about the persons. I respect the IGP because they went to, you know, his uncle went to school with my, you know, my dad's brother in the 80s in New York.

[00:26:11]So I could sit and say, you know what, you know, you know, we do our things all the way here. But when it comes to country, people need to distinguish the fact that relationships don't work when we are discussing matters of our republic. And when it comes to country when people discuss subjects or topics it's not about the individuals who are in those capacities but it's the institution.

[00:26:34]So people cannot you know you cannot inject your personal feelings and emotions on institutions you cannot personalize that. Yeah.

[00:26:49]>> You know, when it comes to the other side, you know, I I don't I don't I one thing is I don't publicly criticize people I consider friends. Even whereas you write something that I do not agree with. I would just read and say okay I form my opinion in my head and I just leave it at that. But you publicly attack me and facate. I have one thing in life. Life is reciprocal. Respect for respect. any other thing for any other thing. But it's good to see. I think that looks like the lawyer guy. I like him. I listen to a lot of a lot of things. Is it DO or something? I'm not sure.

[00:27:23]>> Sio.

[00:27:26]Right. Right. Right.

[00:27:27]>> This is Yes. So, welcome to the show.

[00:27:32]I was just going to really pick your brain on where Malmo ended in terms of because I'm I'm pretty sure even you're a lawyer of amazing experience but you do know a little bit about awards too and what they mean but also the distinction between public institutions and the figures that head those institutions and I was wondering whether you have any opinion you want to share in terms of uh the police as an institution and also you know sort of giving an award to the leadership of the police that is somewhat it's not even somewhat I think is complicit in terms of human right violations that occur in the Gambia.

[00:28:06]H it's a tough decision and then it depends but to be honest I don't know the category but I think what I do saw was security of the year person now I will suppose or there's some kind of presupposition that it's based on service with the police or with the security uh institutional for whatever he uh have done for the institution whether it's through reform or what not. Now um if you are uh giving him that award it represent him and the institution he represent if bifocate know you cannot do that because uh that award uh uh is predicated on the service he did for uh the institution. Now monkey head he had no responsibility. It might not be much of a problem unless you had a form of personal conduction.

[00:29:06]But if you sit at the head of an institution Gamb there are two ways where uh uh uh you could critique the uh nomination whether you agree with or not and then whether he deserve that uh criticism uh that is directed to him. from my point of view uh I think uh um I read that from u I'm not so but I think uh uh someone said in our group and then I read it whether uh Dr. Malmo's take and then Malmo's argument the the reason why I agree with him from this point of view the problem in race and then uh his sister told her that they were acquitted by the court and then they were rearrested and then it happened under the IBP command for market personally but he's the head of the institution the young man in combo may A coronas inquest just ended.

[00:30:06]Yeah, I understand. He passed away to a point where we have to set up a chronous inquest. All these thing happened under his watch. And then uh another issue I think he sited I can't remember. All these things happen under his watch.

[00:30:21]Omar uh reservation has merit in the sense that all this independent act nika even though the IGP as an individual at the market or even let's assume because I don't know the facts that he's even unaware it's not the uh uh the fact that the conduct happen is when the conducts came to his life the action he take to correct that that will show the kind of leader he is now uh let's start with the young man that passed away in that uh combo village police far the narrative that came out because in internally from the police you would know there will be a briefing right especially something of this magnitude someone actually died so you would actually believe that the IDP will be briefed on this matter so the narrative came to you and then you believe your men and women in uniform that whatever the story is and then you believed that and then all of a sudden a corona inquest happened. It proved otherwise. Leadership require right away you issue a public statement, distance yourself from that information, fire the officers uh involved. Hold on one second.

[00:31:38]You move those things uh right away that would show uh leadership happening when sister were rearrested. There are process to do that.

[00:31:51]If you are not involved and then you hear that that is something serious because you are undermining court whether you agree with their decision or not. I sometimes disagree with our highest court but you have to respect that decision. uh what leadership require is you do a press release you let people know oh uh this is not on your authority you will investigate and then you s leadership now because none of those things happen anytime these mistakes you don't come out and then correct it and then me duma they are not found wanting to a point it has to lead to a public backlash for chief justice inquest the finding came out and then even when that finding came out we know it was handed to the Please no subsequent statement you are always on the defensive and then you expect people to separate your leadership from the institution you represent. So intelle and then the criticism would have merit and then people have real concern.

[00:32:52]Having said that uh award them nomination them >> I uh uh uh the people that are uh nominating these people I'll give them the different score they independent they think independently they looked at everything and they see who deserve it those things I don't know but it's fair you cannot claim because uh the conduct that happen every time issues happen that would fall squarely on him. Had he separated himself, you cannot unfairly blame because we understand police is an institution.

[00:33:36]Gambia, we came out of a dictatorship and then there's a reform going on. How he could have separate himself from the institution he represent. If you want people to give credence to your leadership would have been uh when the mistake happened with us you come out acknowledge the mistakes and then those responsible committed it's not a command responsibility you saw leadership because that was wrong it's basically it's kidnapping what happened these people lied under oath and then there has to be some kind of disciplinary action and then to assass confidence in the law enforcement then I would have state Malmola critic is a little bit unfair because he's unreasonably tying the conduct of the institution to a man who publicly denounced that and then he is in a position to correct that action and then he in fact is correcting it. So you cannot separate from the that's where the facts known publicly from the incident. So I will agree with his submission for me. It actually makes sense. So it's going to be difficult to defend. I'm not saying you cannot have an opinion but you undermine or dilute his position. I may raise >> Thank you very much. S just to add to that too Omar before you come in. It's also like two police officers are still killed. We don't know who killed them.

[00:34:57]These are police officers from the state's security outfit. The police officers who died, their case is still pending and we don't know where that case actually is. But we also know it's because of um Usenu's aquidan discharge.

[00:35:13]Now we have no idea who killed us because Usenu has been the one who has been pinned to have been responsible and the courts have cleared him for that. So I I feel as there's just so many things that are pending with the police itself as an institution such that this is somewhat taking us away from those very pertinent issues that we need answers for for the purpose of public transparency and accountability. That's one. Secondly too in terms of the award generally too I it just occurred to me just how much we centralize just so much on the heads right you want to tell me the IGP works harder than that police officer who is on the streets in Briama Silkang and is trying to get the drivers to drive safely and I like and all those things why should it always be the top of the institutions for us to always recognize but we forget the individuals who are in the middle and the lower level. I thought that's always interesting too. But Malmo, please.

[00:36:13]>> But but that that that's basically what I'm trying to tell you. It's not the person of the IGP. Many of times when people want to give awards to institutions, they just personalize it to the person heading the institution.

[00:36:24]Otherwise, if you want to look at it, there are seasoned police officers who have been working in the police force for the last 35, 40 years. This person has probably left immigration and went to police less than 3 years. You know how about the people who stood wore our uniform went out there to defend you know the colors of this country and somebody walked from nowhere and killed them. Are they not deserving of national awards even though they are no long they they are no more who is more deserving of a security award than a person who was killed in his line of duty. But again even if this person should deserve this award we're talking about two police officers who actually were stationed by the Gambia police force and got killed in their line of duty. But the people that came out to tell the nation what is not through is the same police.

[00:37:10]But even after telling us all those things that are in their totality on through a change of leadership happened there, the new leadership could have actually gone down to get to the bottom of that. Ask his former deputy why did you say that you use codes to get this person when in reality that does not exist. We have seen in this country where you know the deputy head of the police was subpoenaed to court. We've seen the national security advisor subpoena to court, the government spokesperson and all of them dying in court. That is publicly embarrassing.

[00:37:55]They should be investigating the death of their own men when out there to format's phone. That in itself is enough not to give the police any accolade in this country that the police could in my view criminally connive within themsel to get the phone of a suspect and to format it just to actually pin a particular crime on him and then allege him of terrorism. the same police actually went to use Mama Jabi and then came to court, you know, compromised in a way or another with the Ministry of Justice to tell us that the audio that you said is the incriminating audio is lost after transcribing it over three times at the police headquarters and noticing that there is nothing incriminating in it. So what what exactly in this particular case was the interest of the police and the government in totality? The same government told us that the person that I grow up with in the community works for the UDP at Briama area council. He's a member of the UDP. He was at Yangubados's court case. All of these things were said to us by the Gambia police force. That is the force we want to say that they are heroes. Even though when that was happening, this IGP was not there. But the police for me for the next 5 years, nothing heroic should be said of this police until meaningful reforms are done there which I don't see happening. Moroing that they are persecuting every day. Their only crime is to ask for accountability and transparency in our governance system.

[00:39:22]And then you don't want young people to ask questions about transparency and accountability. And you continue to, you know, harass them. You continue to intimidate them. You continue to those inhuman treatments that are on camera every day. and you turn around and want to tell somebody in the village that of course this person is a hero or this institution actually the way they're conducting themsel is quite heroic if we cannot vilify the police we cannot in any way glorify them at this point in time and way the way things are happening in the Gambia I don't think they deserve that and again you see all these young women that are actually being killed at home other people killed at their workplaces other people killed in the streets who is responsible for our internal security so in terms of security the police In the Gambia, young people are just killed haphazardly in the streets of the Gambia. Again, in terms of, you know, even territorial integrity, internal security in an attempt to get into the boats and go to this illegal migration. Where is our internal security?

[00:40:28]Where is our internal security? Yeah.

[00:40:30]>> So, all of these things in their totality, nobody seem to care. You can tell me about reforms. What kind of reforms? reforms should reflect in the realities of society and society need to feel those reforms and the impacts need to be felt by society. What impacts have you felt in terms of reforms from the police force as in as in the ordinary person in the streets of the Gambia?

[00:40:49]>> You know, if it's not worse today, it's not better.

[00:40:52]>> You know, as you're talking, I'm just remembering part of what honorable usab said, I think in his last interview. He said, I think individual security is perhaps at an all alltime low in the Gambia. But I think generally in terms of national security, in terms of our borders, I think the government has I think somewhat been doing fairly well.

[00:41:10]But Sio, I also want to pick your brain on this as a last issue as we wrap up this particular topic before we jump to the next one is how significant is you know security sector reform. How important is it to ensure that we have a a system of laws that are clear that are um you know that are concise but they're also not contravening other laws that we have. you know on one hand you know we know we have a constitution and you have the public order act you have all of these things and so there's almost a constant bottleneck of legal problems that we're facing such that you know sometimes it's hard the IGP get you always hear we get an order from the top you know so I think it will be really important if you can walk us through the importance of how say from your experience in the United States how police how institutions operate the laws that guide them how important they are but not specifically to use what is here but how do we make sure that we have a system in ours that is workable that is fair that is um it also humanize the people that it is created to serve because I think that is extremely important >> yeah I I don't think as a yard stick anymore is more of a democrat anyway But uh uh security is a very complex area. And then uh I remember when I was doing undergrad until I major was in criminal justice mostly uh criminal justice uh uh uh policy undergrad kia police. One thing uh if they want to do their job right policing rely a lot uh working with the community in tandem.

[00:42:55]Information from the community uh good old policing just information from the community that's how they get it. It's not extraordinary. They rely on people to uh get information uh detect crime, prevent crime.

[00:43:09]Uh if it is broken, it become very difficult for police to do their job.

[00:43:13]But nine out of 10 times Gambia police intelligence is if they want to do things right way, intelligence is good.

[00:43:19]I genuinely believe that. And then u in the dictatorship area, I cannot speak of that. But some of the things I experienced personally from uh people that are much older than me C back in the days before uh the cool happened or before security sector become u more paranoid. Gambia police uh they're really good at investigation they may not have the equipment and the resources to do their work the way they wanted to but when it comes to raw intelligence they receive that.

[00:43:51]Now that presupposes they could get the right. I I I still believe that to be true. The problem is right now the relationship is broken to a point because of what we live through the dark days that the uh the community do not trust the police and then the police are not helping to build and repair that trust. And then uh Dr. example side with the gala if you are frustrating law-abiding citizens on things that are even nonissue was doing a one year these people have gone there nobody even know what's happening but police they unnecessarily bring attention I don't know it's cost but it's the system why you bring attention on yourself so uh that goes to leadership police require reform because right now no one feel you are serving the constitution because I don't know how Gambia police the academy is but uh when I wanted to uh be a cadet officer with the NYPD we have to go through they have those program it never pan out but one thing I know police here in academy they learn fourth fifth and sixth amendment it's important they have to know in order to interact with the people so I also suppose Gambia the fundamental rights police are taugh about at the uh police academy they teach about the uh the fundamental rights search seeso arrest and then how to interact with people basic human rights. So not every order should be followed.

[00:45:25]There are lawful orders, unlawful orders. Understand the system would protect you then they will do the right thing.

[00:45:35]Yep, that's better. All right. Um what we keep seeing is uh uh uh police keep announcing oh order come from the top because no one know what the top is.

[00:45:45]Everyone is insecure. There is no clear process. So I think uh uh that would require actual reform within the security sector. But the to a larger point why problems and others Gambia itself that has nothing to do with the police in as much as we need reform in the security sector. So we also need legal reform. The problem is uh uh uh most of our laws we inherited from the uh uh colonial system now criminal statute.

[00:46:17]Most of these laws even uh when I had to do a recite in the case look at what I mean by private practice this was very old I came to realize that Muslim marriage acting they call it Muhammad and act can you imagine tell us how we should govern the mar it it's mindboggling to to to read some of our legislations they all predate even the first constitution but to make matters worse 96 Gambia fundamentally change how we uh government. Yeah. Jambe gave us a republican uh uh constitution and then uh he also gave that's one thing you know like the guy is not my bread bread and butter but what I know from a legal point of view Jambbe actually gave us judicial independent I don't know that I never even know that that was a thing he's a brutal dictator but the guy was smart enough to know what self-government means he studied that's what I genuinely believe the guy reads he land on the job so uh uh he gave us But the problem was most of the architecture of the law they predate the legal we inherited whether they in compliance with the constitution we have we come back and then you know it's like we go and then pick one legislation oh no or sometimes if it is convenient we maintain it that's the problem we have never truly audit our laws on the books.

[00:47:48]So the the best reform may happen at war is the uh criminal justice uh uh uh reform for lack of better word is the uh criminal code act and the criminal procedure act 2025 and then that's the only new law mayor long uh new post 97 constitutions at least we reformed that a little bit but we still maintain the same architecture prior to 97 like trial in Gambia to Marmo's point the reason why you have us na sister stay in prison for two three years because the criminal procedure act is designed in such a way it's not defendant friendly and then to the this is I disagree with it but this is the understanding in Gambia on Gambia students on the procedure almost uh uh some people I don't want to overgeneralize There are people who believe it's not the right way. But this is how people practice it.

[00:48:53]They don't have enough evidence.

[00:48:59]And then the system would keep you locked. You cannot do anything. The first opportunity you have is a no case submission which would be at least maybe a year or two outside. You cannot even test the probable cause of that complaint. You cannot even test the sufficiency of that. That is wrong.

[00:49:16]I I fundamentally disagree with that. If I practice in Gambia, I would have filed motions to dismiss or even test probable cause because there's a difference between reasonable it maintain the same system. So how do you expect those balance to uh change?

[00:49:45]So we have to be uh somewhat brave except that some things have to change and then we change them all the time. So I think Gambia uh reform is not only limited to police uh it require even uh legal reform legal reform in the sense that we need audits of our law to make so they are in line with even the 97 constitution amen but most importantly they are true to modern times and then they also give but we are not talking about that and then in as much as reform the instrument that governs them is not reform it's going to be very difficult yeah so I think issue.

[00:50:29]>> I think last time Omar made an important point. How can we be in a democracy when we have a constitution that was dictatorial in every sense of it? You know, I think that kind of puts a lot of it into perspective too. But Omar, if you have want to share quickly um any thoughts that you have because I'm going to have S to walk us through.

[00:50:56]So I think that's something if you have any thoughts you want to share.

[00:51:04]>> I think I think that concludes on the point I made the last time. You cannot run a democracy on a dictatorial constitution at the end of the day just like Bar continuously would brag to Russ you know threatening the people. So it's like he's indirectly telling you I could also use them. So you know many of times we change leaders and we think oh no this person was a dictator but what have we changed from the dictator's playbook?

[00:51:26]because it's the same playbook that we actually using. It's the same laws, the same constitution. So it's always of convenience.

[00:51:34]You actually inject those one and where you feel or is not. So I think you know we fantasize what we call a democracy and often I keep telling people the soal you know you know new Gambia is basically you know its strength lies in its vakeness. Well in the many times when people see certain things happening they would just jump and say oh this is not what we voted for. But what exactly have we voted for? We've seen a regime that was supposed to be primarily on reforms to put this you know country on a you know new setting and of course on a new trajectory and of course on a democratic pathway functional democracy but Gambia has a fantasized democracy which is not functional because there is no way in every sense of it that one can run a democracy on a dictatorial constitution so I don't think the laws actually you know they meet the test of time and the reality of our societies they are not there is a m mismatch and that mismatch is deliberate and intentional by the regime that is in place because it knows that those laws favors them against the citizenry. So until the citizens understand that power resides in the people and the people must actually champion that change and of course the desire for a new constitution that would actually be reflective of the realities of our society and modern day you know you know you know rule otherwise you know it will just be you know actually you know change the law several times probably Bar and others would also do the same and then any other person who comes next if you are not democratic and unrealistic to yourself or power greed he will also do the same because it's always about people maneuvering to just entrrench themselves in power. So you know I think that's just my take on that but thank you very much.

[00:53:09]>> Yes. So thank you very much Malmo for sharing that. So on the second issue, it's funny because you know maybe that's why I don't know but also because I have a platform but I think I understand what comes with that too but I think for the It's impossible to keep up immigration system.

[00:54:09]because I think all of that hopefully we'll ask some questions for him to help us walk us through that entire process. But S Please by all means feel free to go ahead.

[00:54:42]>> Thank you.

[00:54:47]In my personal capacity, I'm actually speaking for myself and then I'm not speaking for any institution. That's important because someone actually this is not the right form but let me put that out there and then uh brought my attention to an article in Gambia In as much as I would want to take credit, that wasn't me. Yeah, I understand.

[00:55:15]But somehow, you know, I don't at first it doesn't bother me that much, but uh someone also brought it to my attention in local language. Oh, you know, so now it's blurring the line.

[00:55:31]So that's why I wanted to make this even with that article the one on standard or mea with the local language uh um I cannot take credit for something m as much as uh I may have my disagreement with uh uh barola government but uh that statement wasn't me so I think it's important to at least correct that >> and come back to do that I speak a lot I'm not afraid to speak but I speak for myself yeah so if It's not like I think no I'm not worried about that.

[00:56:14]I think the antidote to free speech is more but also responsible leadership require you correct it. Yeah, I understand. I'm not faltering them. So uh but I just want to make sure that was in me and but I just wanted to put it out there next time you know you could take a pause >> but having said that coming out immigration changed in the big beautiful bill America immig immigration law substantatively among the last time changes was 1996 during the Clinton time the illegal immigration and immigrant responsibility acting fundamentally before that was the primary immigration you know the main couple of early 912 was the most fundamental change Then 200 ID driver 2005.

[00:57:41]So states anyway institution. So for finally I think last year final phase almost 20 years. So finally last until Thank And then immigration I'm talking about legal lawful immigration growing only basically family based you have parents you have adult children over 21 and then you have siblings brothers and sisters they are filing family petitions and then you have employment employer is either sponsoring you with the categories of visas there those things are there and then you have what we call protection basis asylum within the country refugee system outside but asylum also not allowed then we have what we call special immigrants those are the people embassy for certain number of years or parents also don't know siblings you know s what we call special visas and then create more and then you also have these religious visas apost they all under that and then finally lottery green card lottery these are the five unlike other countries at any given point somebody has to sponsor you either family when it's refugee asylum that family or maybe employ.

[01:00:16]No, no worries. Go for it.

[01:00:33]You know >> you got to keep up bro.

[01:00:40]So to come back to your point yesterday basically traditionally how does that mean at some point or what? Let me put it that way.

[01:01:03]And then you are considered an immediate relative.

[01:01:09]USiz 21. Yeah, understand.

[01:01:21]spouse whether husband or a wife of a US citizen unlike Europe that's what distinguish Americal right to apply for discretion.

[01:01:57]Yes, legally requirement to get our not only discretionary because it relif Let's say because of that what they call serious crime because we don't want every other paperwork is discretionary form of relief. So that's what it is.

[01:02:46]The default should be they're not saying the plan was even.

[01:03:04]So what they are saying in not so many word is within that four years you fell in love.

[01:03:24]uh let's say you know Dr. has expertise or skills in certain area for green card.

[01:04:00]So that's what they trying to change. So they want to make it as a default.

[01:04:10]There's a reason why let me put it in analogy after 30 days as a guest anymore. They are basically like they have some rights.

[01:04:31]They're not only visitors anymore.

[01:04:35]You have to follow certain process. I don't want to go anywhere.

[01:04:40]I don't want but I just want to give you so they have no right to complain and social med.

[01:05:27]So that's the basically just new and then a lot will happen. Is it little bit alarming? Yes. And then uh what it means is sign if you are going to apply for green card it's high important experienced attorney consult you understand what the risks are but most important you still have protections that would be even more dangerous.

[01:06:18]Yeah. So basically you look like okay different levels different you know durations here and there it's just your initial application that you'd have to go out and probably wait because I know Europe, you know, I I was still a permanent resident of a European country. But with that, I had to go back to Gambia. I was not really living there. I was in the Gambia and the application had to come to the Gambia, go to the Belgian embassy in Dhaka. They send the whole file to Belgium, take a decision, send it back to Dhaka, and then I have to travel to Belgium, go to their town hall, you know, you go to and all of that. They do everything.

[01:07:18]There is no way you can make any complaints. Look, we are in your country. Stay there.

[01:07:27]So, so if they do that, is it going to be at the initial stage of your application or at every level of your application? You got to be, you know, in the initial level because technically that's a good point.

[01:07:47]permanent res I tell people this is the biggest misnome there's nothing permanent about permanent residency I don't know why they name it that way but in terriment so they believe so a way to cut We going to give you understand that way they could intouse.

[01:08:40]So put that over your head. We are going to create in 2000 they created what they call physally because you have to stay in that relationship because you felt like there's no hope. So then they create more waivers allow you to selfis.

[01:09:28]So there are a lot of nuances out there.

[01:09:33]They don't put those restriction. You automatically get your permanent residency. There's no basis and then you get it for the first time.

[01:10:00]You were admitted as a permanent res.

[01:10:19]It's very consequential doesn't have a constitutional due process right to have their spouse in the United States.

[01:10:30]>> Wow.

[01:10:36]A parent has a fundamental right to the care, growth and everything of their child.

[01:10:42]The whole issue was whe >> So, so we be with the application of where is it? Is it going to apply retrospectively to a lot of all of that? How is the applicability going to be like and and also discussion? So get a decision on their case. That's major policy change in law. It doesn't go retroactive. Yes. Yeah. The problem is green card but I legal time but let's call it green card green card file unless until you approve rather it's a continuing application.

[01:11:56]It's a continuing application at the time adjudication the laws in place that will apply.

[01:12:21]They are silent about it. They just tell how could you know that? So let's say like this is how it's supposed to go.

[01:12:36]They're not saying because Congress has already spoken on this issue. You understand? In fact, Congress knows about this. Congress of a US citizen, a parent of a US citizen, a child of a US understandific.

[01:13:11]245.

[01:13:17]All right. Thank you. You got it. All right. So I accept those things. Yeah, I understand. So uh but for whatever reason we left change signal likes being on the show does I I have a lot of engineers some of them will tell you I have to go out you know I have to go to India I'm like bro why can't you do that over here so understand why some of those people need to go so it's like okay okay anyway you know figure it out >> yeah I think sometimes I'm will talk about this a little bit too but I think sometimes to adjust to a different visa And I think what's going to happen is now can you imagine H1B that's going to be a significant economic damage to the United States.

[01:14:53]So they work.

[01:14:55]>> That's that's why I'm thinking industry like you know literally if you look at heavy civil in America it's run by people that are not like among you know it's mostly European and you know uh uh uh Spanish and most of these engineers are Indian or whatever.

[01:15:13]So the industry is such that you know the whole industry needs to go out for status adjustment and come back in even though we are having those difficulties you have a couple of Indian engineers and at the same time and they all need to go out and come back that's already a burden >> it is >> you know and and and and not only does it have just economic impacts on the infrastructure but also even the business because in terms timeline because it's like you're going to prolong this job because of you know some of these you know you know you know paperwork and all of that. So even cities and states would definitely challenge some of these things like significant economic I think they trying to walk back or clarify certain things and significant economic benefit is one issue especially that's going to be adversely um you know it's going effect affect our economy a lot in this country. So to what extent would that apply to you know if you just have an ordinary job or high but you still have a pending case it relates to adjustment of status anyway it is due as one of the most complex area of law next to bankruptcy here it's purely codebased every year you have over 70,000 regulations Yeah, immigration is very complex. Any map will be able to you felt like you you get lost. You have to learn again.

[01:17:20]It's highly codified and then it interact with the constitutional law with national security law at all time.

[01:17:27]Those two intersections you cannot impute a requirement congressman even though they have a plenary power discretion to break. Let me put it this way.

[01:17:44]The issue is not coming.

[01:17:48]The question is whether you are discretion even.

[01:18:08]So you go back to what we call congress reportress we know what's there I don't want to get into that so the issue is coming is just a little bit more conservative I want to create an interpretation issue let me create an interpretation For instance, when it comes to regardless the cameur 50 years later, Just like privacy.

[01:19:33]Let's forget about that because we have reconstruction amendments. the 14 15 and 16 amendment but let's just come to Brown v of education before that we have vaginaral it's perfectly okay we understand that but in this case no one is fighting for new qualifier apply the question is how do you evaluate discretion for instance let's say back to question you are going to make that as a very significant factor instead of going back when they have no notice whatsoever than any other equity so they are saying you have to so you are deserving of that discretion in extraordinary circumstances you cannot put something on a discretion case in point I don't want to get too philosophical but uh uh it happened before in asylum context you understand in in the in the 70s there's a decision a board decision m of let's say refugee. Just to put it in context, we know they mean different things of the US.

[01:21:21]So let's say there's a problem in understanding it over Whatever guy came a negative discussion.

[01:22:26]going to cut out entirely especially in all the other just because I'm battle and then that might be one factor severity of persecution family that is more on a balance discussion one single factor. So that law has been settled in but policy decision the decision actually itself was a decision matter of blast but you have to look this case is an outreent So he did not leimony.

[01:24:07]Okay, I know you are deserving of a serious negative discretion. I'm not going to reward you for destroying a family.

[01:24:17]So negativeity this is the extreme outlier but in going to reward that we know how it will come probably Yes, I can get here.

[01:25:28]>> Yes. Do you have another question or I should fire?

[01:25:33]>> You can go ahead. You can go ahead like you know I could only speak of the industry that I know. We have a lot of Indian you know but Indian civil engineers and many times you know you know I need to go back to do my either visa or whatever. Why do you need to go back all the way to your country to do whatever to come back in here or I need to you know permit is ending and I need to get out to go and do that. So are those different visa categories that you need to get out of this country and come back in and people in between they want to change to this EB you know whatever you know into different form. So how does that work within the time you able to you want to change it through a different process would you now with this law go outside visa visa is a generic term but it has two categories it's not permanent student visa B2 visa regardless of That's the promise.

[01:27:03]You have immigrant visas.

[01:27:12]Asian country. They are highly good at STEM area. So they might start with A1B which is a non-immigrant visa. It has a dual intent. You understand?

[01:27:23]Because coming back to family, You must maintain lawful status at all time.

[01:27:59]Give you a grace period of 179 days.

[01:28:01]What they call non technical violation.

[01:28:18]They do what they call optional training to keep them in status.

[01:28:31]There's a number of visual understand you have to be selected in that for the next you have to find another way. You can always change your status from one to another.

[01:29:04]So immigration history and then what strategies they looking at there's always a visa available but every other category employers there's a limit on the number of visa deal let's say a million this year for legal migration like Gambian process could take anywhere between two to five years because now visas have retrogressed they only have 200 I think 235 or 275,000 visas are allocated for that level of visas green cardi 21 they have less than 300,000 visa allocated for that. So they have to wait until next year. So unlimited number of visas because they don't have to wait at all. The question is applic And then other military process within 30 days because those kind of things complicated and then so we have some comments in the questions in the comment.

[01:31:21]of those. But I have my own personal question which is say for example you know a few days ago well not even approved because you go through then you also file ready. So now they completely from doing that for people to understand that heavy discretionary negative discretionary factor.

[01:32:17]Are you working too balancing Tesla and then immigration to your question?

[01:32:44]That's what it is to create a visa number for you.

[01:32:47]So to move from that non-immigrant status so basically I130 is just a vehicle.

[01:33:02]So that's how it is. So an ideal scenario would be you will sit realistically under this policy.

[01:33:20]What do I have going on for me here? Am I someone may have been productive in the community other than the only negative discretion decision to file my paperwork here in state outside of that negative discussion as a negative discretionary factor and they were going to make it very high aside from that are there any other negative discretionary factor going on for me for instance through a visa you know that's okay am I someone who violated the terms of my visa am someone.

[01:33:58]So you you look at it and then stack it and then see you know those kind of decisions. That's what you're going to see. Do I think is more than my negative? So with their policy discretion favorable in my case are some of the things they don't tell you. Let's say visitors visa you have 6 month to stay not exceed 6 month now you start acrewing what we call unlawful present unlawful until one year from 180 days 6 month to one year you trigger what they call a mandatory if you are unlawfully present for more than a automatically booby traps.

[01:35:07]So, you have to apply for a waiver outside which could take a year or two.

[01:35:37]So those options are there some negative interaction with law enforcement and then they might compound some other issues.

[01:35:56]>> Okay. Well, so some comments. What if you file concurrently? I answer. If you file concurrently, I think it's the same.

[01:36:03]They're still going to apply the discretion. Negative against uh positive, you know.

[01:36:15]2019 and after marriage, I was approved.

[01:36:18]But I for the Yeah, it's still the same.

[01:36:20]I think just watch the video. I think you know of course when in reality the system is just ignoring you but looking at you. And they could just put all that out there.

[01:36:54]and positive.

[01:36:58]What general advice would you give to people and then you know at all times you know what would be the general advice to the to the to the people not just Gambian but generally is and then it doesn't have to my advice would be because it's like almost 20 pages.

[01:37:40]They also assessing what we call public charge.

[01:37:47]Instead of being productive, you are inadmissible.

[01:38:20]You have to prove because the burden is on you to liability.

[01:38:42]Somebody is also asking visa suspension whether it's the same thing andh Uh uh we'll see next month. 180 days reassessment.

[01:39:08]>> Okay. Well, finally last issue I want to pick all of each of your brains on is Sagalin.

[01:39:19]Finally, I think what a lot of people have prophesized have come to life.

[01:39:24]They've seen um his service has been terminated by Jamaifi. uh two brothers that we know started the struggle together. Uh went to jail together 10 days before the elections. Um they came out of jail and they in fact won the elections together.

[01:39:39]Jamai became president, Sonka became the vice president. But as of Friday announcement came that the cabinet has been dissolved, the government has been dissolved and also has been relieved of his duty. Uh what are your thoughts?

[01:40:00]But this is what I do know and then let me put it this way from my point of view. This is how I see things in our local med.

[01:40:14]But let's say we all know we know where they came and then constituent that's our idea >> they get to the palace and then in our first meeting because structure governance structure is a little bit different. It's not like prime minister little bit heavy.

[01:40:51]So in that first cabinet meeting I would have close relationship agendas 2 that's what we talked about and then are we don't know and then I have it you understand to me we are only going to do one and two with A and B I don't sign up for that I disagree and No matter how difficult it is with the information we have president will have that discussion is your government it's your legacy this is how you see from my point of view what I would have been more prudent I would have resigned uh from my position I'll come back to past this is what we campaign this is what we agreed come this is what he wants to do and then I cannot be married to a government with that policy when that's not our agenda.

[01:42:02]So I am outli we not going to support that we are for one and two that's what we'll campaign and then I'll do my public what I find unacceptable here from working in all kind of institute one thing I know is you cannot disagree let's say at fault I'm putting this is the default everything is the good guy What is from my point of view unacceptable especially in position you cannot disagree with him but every day you undermine him ministries and other agencies would be like why should we care they're not going to at some point in time it undermines your leadership because people thinks that you are not decisive or you cannot make decision or some is the leader it would force you to act even if you don't want to act to me some kind of war that's just okay it's just unacceptable even at employee places you could be the most brilliant guy if they think you are not personable or you cannot bring the team together because you need to know how to get the best out of people you understand. So that's my publicly disagreeing you have the party everybody know that so I don't know if you think there's something fundamentally wrong and then you are making this public out it behooves me to come resign you understand you have the support if you believe in your project resign but you cannot continue to do that you don't show me what the justifications are and then in a position of leadership you you leave him that way because it undermines him.

[01:44:08]That's not leadership anywhere regardless of right or wrong. So I'm pushing him to fire me in order to get sympathy vote. I don't know how politics works but for me if I am an electorate you will have some questions on h questions you have to answer for me in order to get that vote from me. you're not going to get a sympathy vote because I want to understand why uh you continue to marry to that system. If you think there's a fundamental disagreement regarding how the government should be run and let's say he doesn't give you the way you want to do things and then you cannot work with him is incompatible the prudent thing is you getting the privilege but you also either agree everybody would agree on everything but on the fundamentals then I can understand the fundamental principle let's say is doing the project they asked for but the issue is some other things is unrelated to governance and impersonal I think that's just immaturity from both side but uh we wouldn't know or maybe I don't know because I don't follow their product >> you know Omar it seems to me like one of the fundamental problems or difference that they both have Jamai and Sonko is the issue of debt crisis that Sagal is facing I think almost over 132% uh debt to their GDP ratio and Sonko has his ways of how to tackle that which is different from how Jama wanted to handle that and so they have ongoing conversations with international financial institutions including the IMF and part of that is coming I think first week of June as well because obviously Sonko does not hide away from the fact that he's not interested in so much of pandering to the west and this um sort of um you know radical populist I mean figure that is also like pretty eminent in Africa that aligns a lot with say the EFF in South Africa and you know this idea that I think in many ways a lot of people why he's so popular is because he wants things to be done our African way which begs the question what is the African way how do we make sure that African economists are independent of the west that we are not relying on foreign um donors and sponsorship for us to do certain projects that we have but the problem Sagal is facing right now is they inherited a debt of over I think 1.3 billion or something that is not entirely theirs from Maki Salah that they discovered. So they have a problem with their economy right now and how they both want to go about it. I think it's a huge problem. But memo I want to ask you specifically. You see Gambian community is also divided on this and I think right rightfully so because Sagal is so close to us and we're so connected to them in many ways. But what does this mean to Gambians especially when people have this conversation? How do they relate it to what happened between say Adamu and Dabo for example in our Gambian context?

[01:47:09]I I think I think for the most part you see I see politics from a different view and more so when it comes to leadership you know if you if you look at how lions live they live in territorial protection there are no two male lions in one territory and there cannot be two male lions in one territory simply in political terms you cannot have two presidents of a nation >> you know no matter how you come together as you know we are we are coming together as a team or whatever. One has to lead and one had to allow the other to lead. You know, you can have a joint project and your your views might be different, but at some point one had to allow the other to actually, you know, rule. You cannot have two rulers at a time. That's one thing. But one thing that I view the Seneagalles political you know you know context is that you know uh they inherited a lot from Maki which is bad in terms of debts here and there but the problem is specifically and squally on Jai's intention to retain the position for the next term. That's one fundamental problem that these two have.

[01:48:23]Jeremiah had already left left past. Oh, since he came to power, he was already trying to consolidate just like Barrow started. You know, Bar and UDP the problem is UDP thought they were helping Bar in his own view.

[01:48:39]That was what was happening. So, Sonko and Jay said that okay, I believe in this person, let him do whatever. But you cannot be in the government. And of course you're publicly criticizing the government that you are ahead of because in Seneagali system the prime minister is literally you know the one who is uh running the soul. So if you are running that government and you believe the approach and the method that the president wants is not what works for you. I would agree with Sergeant that you you you rather leave. But again he felt that no I brought this government into place and we were supposed to follow the pattern of our project and then if you actually deviate from the project it becomes our responsibility because remember during their campaign they said if you leave the project we will try to bring you back on the project because you are not here to actually rule on your you know personal ideas is on what we all agreed on is on the project but nobody rules on a project of the collective. A leader must always exist and that leader at one point will have discretional rights to say you know what this is how I want it and that is how it will it will go even though I don't agree with it sometimes it happens that way but the whole point is that John has in my view you know deviated from the past agenda the agreement that brought him to power and now he's you know more so looking into consolidating himself you associated himself with the people that were subjugating you know their party members and of course the people of you know you know you know Sono and Sona is in a person too. So there is no way you can tell me just like bro you know going to bed with the APRC. Wow. Wow.

[01:50:20]>> You know, >> so so even though in the Gambian context people try to look at it as, oh no, it's just like what you know, you know, you know, Barrow did to the UDP is very different.

[01:50:30]Of course, Dao was in prison, broation brought him here and there, but that was supposed to be a transition of 3 years.

[01:50:38]Even though other people told us that he could stay for five years, but other people also went down and told you could stay beyond five years. So that is exactly a replica of what is happening in Sagal. Now the opposition that was ousted is hijacking the change.

[01:50:53]Hijacking in the sense that they're telling you know you know Joai you can stay beyond just this 5 years that these people want you because they are your party members they you can have a second month a second term. Now this is what happened to Bar. People told him oh no 3 years and all of a sudden UDP said no you can do five years. Other people made him believe that you can do 10 and beyond. and the APRC in a way or another Singinja left that party deliberately and intentionally. This is my view that that was you know you know you know collaboratively done with Fabaki and others. Leave the party go claim some association with this person and bring him to us and then that partnership is what get the guy a second term and that is why in my view literally the APRC runs the government cuz APRC runs the parliament and then if CD could say that I tell bro you know who to fire and who to promote and who not to that is clear to all of us that who runs the government. So now you could see the people that Jama is meeting now. The former prime minister of Makisal, you know, the person that is leading his coalition is Makisal's former prime minister as well and of course was, you know, leading Makisal's campaign, you know, for for parliament not long ago. They had a fallout simply because he was not made, you know, the the the speaker of the assembly. Like all other people that are part of that, you know, Joe coalition are from the Makis, you know, camp. So in short, Marqueis camp is hijacking government and s of course like you said the reason why he would deliberately not resign.

[01:52:20]You know there are issues of principle issues of professionalism and of course issues of politics it will be his campaign but politically it would help him because You have to put social context to it.

[01:52:53]So the whole point now is firing Sonko was Sonko's deliberate making. If you listen to his speech in the National Assembly yesterday, I was following that. There were two things. Joai was deliberately frustrating Sonko to resign and Sonko actually battled him out in the game by deliberately provoking him in some of his statements at the assembly yesterday and that brought his you know sacking and of course you know you know you know you know the solution of the the government but again now what would happen is Sonko knows he has the majority in parliament and now you you could tell from the beginning Joai wanted that coalition to go into parliament so that tells you that from the beginning this guy was already calculating. These people were playing mind games on each other from the get-go.

[01:53:38]I am already president. How do I consolidate? You're president. You're supposed to be here for a period and you got to be out. You become president by default. So you cannot remain. So there have been that political game among these people. It was just a chess game.

[01:53:53]>> So for I will not resign for people to say father.

[01:54:02]But again, while this person is ding and whining with the opposition that were subjugating Sono, jailing him and accusing of all kind of things, that is not really something that Paste would want to see. But again, firing even some of his closest associates from government is another thing that he would definitely not like.

[01:54:21]>> Yeah.

[01:54:21]>> And where people are accused of corruption and Tonka publicly talked about it and the president said, "Damn it, I don't care."

[01:54:28]So all of those things we are just compounding issues that we are you know you know bleeding past to that you know very angry point that you know what this guy does not want to focus on the project. So he's forcing us in a different light to resign and we will not give him that privilege. So we will stay until he asks us out. I think politically that is smart in terms of development and realistically for the nation's progress is not >> but then at the end of the day Sonko get what he wanted because those provoke yesterday like if you listen to him and some of the things he was saying you cannot say that to the president that you walk under as the prime minister you're supposed to come and defend that you know you know you know you know government and if you believe the government is doing right where you believe it's not doing right you resign but where you did not resign and you come to the assembly and said I disagreed with the president on this and this and on this and this I think the president made a mistake on this and this I think the president is wrong.

[01:55:23]Cannot do that.

[01:55:24]>> Yeah, >> there is no way I can work for a company and then go out and say you know what my my project executives are all wrong and everything they're doing is not right.

[01:55:31]>> That is deliberately calling for my firing. So was deliberately calling for his firing while the president did not want to take the responsibility of so now everybody's like and then politically when that is mentioned of you know what when that tag is on your name it become very difficult to cleanse that so now he will rely on Maki's people to seek his re-election and the seneagalles people will always reflect on how he came to power.

[01:56:06]>> Yeah.

[01:56:06]>> So those were the things the political dynamics were things that Sonka understood very well and had to play his cards in that light. Not to say that is why when he came to the assembly it was intentional to speak of the ills within the government that he was serving so that this guy could actually be compelled to fire him because Jamai's intention was never to fire him was to leave him and to continue to frustrate him within the system.

[01:56:33]Okay.

[01:56:34]>> So, those are the two things at play.

[01:56:36]>> S finally, finally, if we can wrap up with um you, I'm curious to ask you, you're a lawyer, you're not a politician. In fact, you know, most lawyers that I know, they try to completely stay away from that territory. But it's also not surprising that most presidents around the world are also a lawyer. So, I think there is a great correlation uh between law and and and politics. Um and so in parliamentary systems for example I think one could make the case that coalitions for the most part work greatly you know like you take an example of which is a crazy example for me to even mention but Israel is another example where you know the system that they have you know the coalitions work very well parliament you know you go to in England as well you know and most countries that have a parliamentary system I think for the most part it works but I think in our context that has a mostly a predom dominantly presidential system of government. We've seen time and again where partnerships are created, coalitions are created with the sole purpose of having access to power or becoming uh the incumbent and then once they settle into power this crack starts to show up and our case is not um you know Gambian case it's a case in point for example and also now we see Sagal and so I'm curious to ask you you know is there anything that is different to say a parliamentary system to a presidential system such that you know one of them coalitions could work and on the other hand in a presidential system it's just so hard for coalitions to work and we have December elections coming you have all of these conversations that are ongoing and we know for sure because at the end of video what ends up happening is the country suffers you know nothing gets done the sagal currently is experiencing an astronomical problem of debt and they cannot figure out a way because their politicians are fighting so the ordinary persons who don't have access to power continue to struggle while politicians fight among themselves. So how important is it for us to learn from these lessons such that we don't replicate the same mistake that we did during the 2016 coalition conversations?

[01:58:43]It's going to be difficult but it requires civil education awareness I am not too I don't fancy parliamentary system of government like and then uh at its core uh if things are done right it's supposed to be a representative government meaning the people have power even more than the courts and uh in UK system uh parliament can in fact overrule their Supreme Court. They don't have a constitutional democracy or constitutional supremacy. Supreme Court override. They can do that because at the uh core of it, they believe the people should have that power to do that. Uh I'm a fan of a constitutional republic.

[01:59:31]The problem is even with uh a constitutional republic Africa, we give too much power to the executive. There is no balance. And then uh even personally I would admit uh uh we never take national assembly to be an important house. Uh uh I think Gambia we uh uh never realized the work they can do how important they are in holding the president to check until it is late. And then the fifth legisl legislature for me in Gambia was a wakeup call. this idea of okay we always fighting and thinking the right person we always forget to ask the question I think that's where the conversation should focus on my my my thinking is a lot of these university students they graduating I I employ them I in fact them people that actually know what is happening. We cannot continue to afford to have people in the house.

[02:00:43]You need to know your role.

[02:00:52]But ni check and balance into accountability like I'm going to give my agenda to him.

[02:01:12]It's insane. So uh uh parliament cried about this thing. I think that's where we have this analogy and then uh in sagal it goes to the same thing.

[02:01:20]President has the power to dissolve the parliament. That's insane. That should never happen.

[02:01:27]Why would that happen? What we should have a recall system where there's a threshold they not happy with you they recall you hey California you can recall the governor that's how he came into power if we even want you can put that we have 30% of the electorate the vot register want to recall the president okay fine we can do that if you think you're not doing right we cannot wait for another five years But president that's where the problem is but president hold to account even in Gambia system it doesn't matter who came in coalition if they want to re on their powers but the people that can hold them to account is but you need people there to understand role is to serve as check and balance to the government is calling you with old you are going to testify in front of a committee but the moment they put you under oath you know what that mean they can come back to you have I don't recall I don't remember those are two So Gambia is the same thing. National Assembly have this enormous power but I don't even think they know they have it to put the president at check like what happened with the movement inquiry on the commission that was commendable but they could have done that you know they have the power to censor ministers to require the ministers to be fired you president they have a lot of power and then they asked for independence in 2018 in national assembly service National Assembly, they're supposed to have policy makers.

[02:03:31]They're supposed to have economist meaning one thing I would want to see Gambia want to see from our law.

[02:03:42]How much will it create?

[02:03:45]How much will it add on the budget?

[02:03:48]You have congressional budget office.

[02:03:50]Every bill is get legislated.

[02:03:53]I I gave private member like who tell you you're going to bill they actually believe they supposed to pay for their own private member bill like where do you see that line because there's no orientation and then the people that supposed to train them that's your role so they are of the idea that neither see as represent come from ideally your job definition.

[02:04:32]Go to the office, make it a policy for me and then bring the bill. You get support and this whole idea of if reform is going to happen, no bill should come from the executive. All bills should come from National Assembly. Bill number one, you have an agenda.

[02:04:58]Go to your majority.

[02:05:07]You could work behind the scen.

[02:05:15]But every time they have to bring it to you, they have to explain it to you because they bamboozle you. You don't even understand the terms that are there.

[02:05:25]Debate is very fast. So uh it's going to be very difficult in check because everyone think how many times do we see calling proators talking to them or bringing ministers having public hearing scrutinize you we don't see that so uh I think that's where it's changed even for Gambia you could keep doing cosmetic changes unless institutional movement movement you start doing that uh there will be this uh power imbalance where the executive will always be powerful and most importantly to all we see government as a mean and a way out when private sector should be that so Gambia the inverse is because you see something that is wrong, you want to change it and then you want to provide for your people.

[02:06:35]It's going to be difficult to keep that and then so that require anyway it's been over two hours. I don't want to keep any of you longer.

[02:06:50]and but I just want to quickly tell both of you say to both of you thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much for your contributions sar and I appreciate you being here. I'm sure Omar is finally excited to meet you also virtually, you know. I'll I'll put you guys in touch too, you know. That's that's part of the things that I like to do, you know. But we really really appreciate you being here.

[02:07:14]>> Thank you so much. Thank you. And nice meeting you virtually.

[02:07:19]>> Yeah, nice talking to you, man.

[02:07:23]>> Yeah, all of our our audience as well.

[02:07:25]You guys don't forget to subscribe on our YouTube directly space podcast and share the interview as well. Um, thank you all very much. You all have a wonderful Saturday. Bye.