The REAL reason I didn't become Orthodox (ft. Voice of Reason)

[00:00:00]I came to a conclusion that the Catholic Church is the one true church.

[00:00:03]>> I saw you make a lot of sacrifices to do Roots of Orthodoxy. You sacrificed a lot and it's true like you lost a lot of money doing Roots of Orthodoxy because >> There is no grift. There is no >> Right.

[00:00:13]>> I'm not part of the CIA. I'm not part of the >> [laughter] >> KGB. I'm not a Mossad agent. Whatever these people want to say.

[00:00:19]>> It's crazy.

[00:00:20]>> to believe that the papacy [music] was an accretion. I wanted to believe that the papacy was manufactured over time, that it was an innovation, that it was the tyrannical Big Brother that wanted to usurp [clears throat] authority [music] all for himself. But that simply wasn't true. That narrative is actually false.

[00:00:35]All of the papal claims, they're actually right here. They're in the Bible.

[00:00:38]>> Amen.

[00:00:39]>> Saint Nektarios is a [music] saint that was heavily slandered where people were throwing all these accusations against him [music] and Saint Nektarios of course has more grace and more humility than I do. But it's very fitting that God had it be the case that this is the first icon that I received because it's very applicable to my story. It was a sign that you will be slandered by partaking this journey. They will hate you for it.

[00:01:01]>> You'll be betrayed. It's on you, man. I want I want to hear it. The audience must hear it. How did you come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

[00:01:11]Glory to Jesus Christ.

[00:01:13]You are listening to The Voice of Reason and Roots of Faith Roots of Orthodoxy Voice and Roots united. Roots and Voice together once again.

[00:01:24]Welcome. Thank you all for being here with us. My brother thank you for being here with me, man.

[00:01:29]How are you?

[00:01:30]>> Of course, man. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:31]>> Thank you for being here on Thank you for being here on your on your channel with me.

[00:01:35]>> Yeah, [laughter] no, no. I'm doing good.

[00:01:37]Yeah. No, thank God. I just had a my baby boy. He was just born last week.

[00:01:43]>> So we've been busy. No sleep. Little little to no sleep, but >> You look great though. How do you look so good without sleep, man?

[00:01:48][clears throat] >> It's honestly my wife. My wife has been holding it down.

[00:01:51]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:01:51]>> She's been holding it down, so she's let me get more sleep than her, so without her I wouldn't I wouldn't be here right now. So >> Bro, I think the whole both Voice of Reason and Roots of Faith with Orthodoxy, all of that is thanks to your wife, to be honest with you, bro.

[00:02:05]>> 100%.

[00:02:06]>> The only reason that we're able to do what we do is cuz your wife like lets us >> Yeah, [laughter] I know.

[00:02:11]>> She's so cool and she just lets us all the traveling that we've done for the last 3 years, bro.

[00:02:15]>> Dude.

[00:02:16]>> It's crazy and she's always >> It's a It's a sacrifice. You know, we I have uh two other kids, so I have three kids total. A lot of people don't know that.

[00:02:23]>> Yeah.

[00:02:23]>> I'm married. I have three kids and she holds it down. She >> She's amazing.

[00:02:27]>> She does it all by herself. So, I'm just like super grateful. Yeah, without her, I mean, I wouldn't be able to travel. I wouldn't be able to do this. I wouldn't have the time. I'd have to go, you know, work a regular job. So >> I know. Thank God. Well, God bless you and God bless all of the great wives and mothers out there that hold it down for their husbands so >> Amen.

[00:02:42]>> we can do our thing, but um so cool to be here with you, man. You've been making the rounds. You've been on tour. You've been I've seen you on all these different podcasts cuz you had a quite the announcement that you made recently.

[00:02:53]Now, here's the thing.

[00:02:56]I am not the type to say "I told you so."

[00:03:00]You know that I'm not the type to gloat.

[00:03:02]You know that I'm not the type to ever say "I told you I was right."

[00:03:07]So, I'm not going to say it.

[00:03:09]I'm not going to say it.

[00:03:11]I'm going to let you say it.

[00:03:12]>> Yeah, no. I [laughter] I am going to say it.

[00:03:14]>> I'm going to um Well, no. What I want is I just want you to share your story, hold nothing back. I want to know about I know cuz I was there with you, you know.

[00:03:26]But, this was a this wasn't just uh you weren't just like being a journalist. You weren't just going out and just uh uh you know, gathering facts and data and you This was actually a spiritual journey.

[00:03:39]>> Mhm.

[00:03:39]>> And I feel like I not even I really know the depths of of what you experienced cuz it's been close to 3 years.

[00:03:46]It has been close to 3 years. I'm sure everyone knows what we're talking about.

[00:03:50]You, Jonathan, the producer of Voice of Reason, a cradle Catholic, you went on a close to 3-year journey, >> Right.

[00:04:00]>> 2 and 1/2 year journey, actually discerning Eastern Orthodoxy.

[00:04:04]>> Mhm.

[00:04:05]>> Let me say right off the bat, cuz I want everybody to know, right off the bat, again, I'm not the type to say I told you so, I'm not the type to gloat anything, but uh I'm I was very happy and very excited for you when you went on the journey because I've known you for so long, I know your character, I know the type of man you are.

[00:04:31]I know that you are much smarter than me, and I know that whenever I say that you're like, "Nah." But I think now I think even now you have to admit that you can tell you're a lot smarter than me.

[00:04:41]And um because I know your integrity in the pursuit of truth, I knew, and I'm just speaking from my perspective, I knew that you went on this journey, I knew that I didn't have to worry about you.

[00:04:57]>> Mhm.

[00:04:58]>> I knew that because I know who you are as a person, I knew that you were going to leave no stone unturned.

[00:05:04]I know that you were going to be careful.

[00:05:06]I know that you weren't going to jump to conclusions. I know that you weren't going to rush it.

[00:05:11]I know that you like to take your time, you like to be careful, you like to make sure that you you like to make sure, you like to be absolutely sure.

[00:05:20]And I've always known this about you.

[00:05:22]And I already had uh a reason to know that you would because you came back to the faith when I I was pushing you and you were looking at Islam. I knew that when you looked into Islam, I knew that you would I knew that you would find the truth in in in Jesus Christ.

[00:05:36]>> Right.

[00:05:37]>> And I knew that when you looked into Eastern Orthodoxy, I knew that you would find the fullness of the truth, the fullness of the truth.

[00:05:45]>> Right.

[00:05:46]>> Because Eastern Orthodoxy has a lot of truth. The vast majority of what you find in Eastern Orthodoxy, the vast majority, is true.

[00:05:53]90% of it is true.

[00:05:55]But the whole 100% fullness of Christian truth you can find only in the Catholic Church.

[00:06:01]And I knew that you would come to that conclusion because again, I know who the type of man you are. I know your character. I know how you operate. I know how you think. I know how you work.

[00:06:10]I knew I said, "Okay, I And please tell me if I tell me what I'm telling lies. Stop me when I'm telling lies. Tell me if I'm ever wrong if if if I ever say anything that's not true.

[00:06:20]But I actually kind of took a step back.

[00:06:23]>> Mhm.

[00:06:24]>> When you went on your journey cuz in the because what I cuz I I knew another thing that I knew about you was that I needed to let you come to the conclusion on yourself.

[00:06:32]Because I would notice something when I I would literally give you like the I would literally just tell you. I would give you the the end of the movie. I would spoil it for you. And I told you in the beginning I said, "This is what you're going to find. This is what you're going to see when you read the Ecumenical Councils. This is what you're going to see when you read the Church Fathers. This is what you're going to find."

[00:06:49]But I noticed that I would say this to you and I noticed that it wouldn't register. And I'm not saying that as a knock on you.

[00:06:57]I'm saying it because this is something that all of us need to know. This is something that all of us need to understand is that sometimes all of us, just as human beings, sometimes we're not ready to accept the truth.

[00:07:09]Sometimes we're just not ready.

[00:07:11]>> Mhm.

[00:07:12]>> Because the truth can be overwhelming.

[00:07:14]The truth can be scary. The truth can be really hard to wrap your head around.

[00:07:19]Timing is everything.

[00:07:20]>> Right.

[00:07:21]>> Timing is everything. You're not always ready to accept the truth.

[00:07:25]So when I would present these things to you and I could see that there was something there was a disconnect there.

[00:07:31]That was when I said, "Okay, he needs to figure it out on his own."

[00:07:35]>> Right. Yeah, I'm the type of person if you tell me something, I want to make sure that I can come to that conclusion myself. Right.

[00:07:42]>> So, even people that I highly respect like you or Michael Lofton or Eric Ybarra, >> Yeah.

[00:07:46]>> like I'm not just going to take it at first glance. I'm going to take it with a pinch of salt.

[00:07:50]>> Yes.

[00:07:50]>> I'm going to go do my due diligence and figure out is this true because >> Yeah.

[00:07:53]>> all of us have a bias to some degree.

[00:07:55]>> Absolutely. All of us.

[00:07:56]>> We want to prove >> Every last one of us.

[00:07:57]>> what we believe to be correct. We don't want to be following a false doctrine or false belief.

[00:08:01]>> Yes.

[00:08:02]>> [sighs] >> So, >> Yeah.

[00:08:03]>> even for the Orthodox side, people that I deeply respect, Father Josiah Trenham, you know, Father Paul Chuga, you know, all of these great Orthodox voices.

[00:08:10]>> Yeah.

[00:08:11]>> I want to fact-check it first. So, I I I collect. So, you say this. Okay, let me >> me collect it. I'm going to I'm going to put a pin on it. I'm going to collect what they say. I'm going to put a pin on it. And then I'm going to go research, see if it's true.

[00:08:23]>> always been like that since I've when we first met, kindergarten days.

[00:08:27]You've always been that way. So, that's how I knew. I said, "Okay, I can I know that I can leave you. I could take a step back and I can leave you alone. And you'll go on the journey." And I knew that on the other side you'd come back out and I knew that you would come to to the conclusions that I knew you would come to uh cuz I went on the same journey as well, you know? And I knew that you would. Um so, I think that a lot of people might get it like a lot of people might have this wrong idea ever since you especially since you put out your video that maybe I was in your ear.

[00:08:57]Maybe I was like influenced. Maybe I was trying to like my hardest.

[00:08:59][clears throat] Am I Please tell me right now. You can tell me. You can tell the audience.

[00:09:04]I just said that I took a step back. Was that true or was that false? Did I let you do your thing or did I Was I hounding >> No, what 100%. So, you would tell me things about the papacy. You would tell me about the councils, about the fathers, about the readings from scripture.

[00:09:16]>> Yeah.

[00:09:17]>> And I didn't want it to be true. So, I said, "I want to put a pin on this and I'll come back to it later. I want to hear what the Orthodox have to say about these matters."

[00:09:26]>> So, I wanted to take a balanced approach, get the Eastern perspective, get the Western perspective, you know, Orthodox, Catholic.

[00:09:32]And yeah, you let me do my thing. So, you you left me alone. you let me go on this journey by myself, kind of figure it out, and yeah, you know, glory to God, I I came to a conclusion that the Catholic Church is the one true church.

[00:09:47]It was a It was a long journey. It was 3 years, nearly 3 years. I started a project, for those that are not familiar with it, I started a project called Roots of Orthodoxy nearly 3 years ago.

[00:09:57]It was a labor of love.

[00:09:59]It was a passion project. It was something that I wanted to do. I wanted to share it with the world. I didn't make money from it, and I didn't get famous from it. In fact, I don't even come out in the videos.

[00:10:10]I simply platformed the priests throughout the whole time. I never indicated an ulterior motive. I've always been honest with all of the priests that I work with. Uh to this very day, they all knew who I was. They knew I was Catholic. They knew that I was discerning Orthodoxy. There was a time where I was taking the inquirer/catechumen classes. So, there was a time where I was kind of a little bit more on the fence. I was uh taking the classes. I was taking it a little bit more seriously. But, I had to take a step back from that because my understanding is that the catechumenate period is like the engagement period of a marriage. Like, you already know you're going to become Eastern Orthodox.

[00:10:50]So, I I had to take a step back and say, "I'm not going to figure this out in 6 months or whatever until or 6 months to a year or whatever the case is for me until I get received into the into the Orthodox Church." That's just simply not enough time for me personally. Other people, that might be different. Some people might just need a week. Some people might be figured out on the spot. You know, like Father Seraphim Rose, when he first walked into Divine Liturgy, he said, "I felt like my journey was over. Like, I was home."

[00:11:17]I had that same feeling, but I didn't have that level of commitment. So, I took a step back from the catechumen classes. So, I wanted to make sure that I that I mentioned that cuz that that was as far as I got into being committed to becoming Orthodox. And then I took a step back and said, "You know what? I'm just going to be content calling myself an inquirer because I'm I'm not going to jump the gun too too too fast. So, yeah, I I I started this project and it was like literally just to give glory to God, to share the beauty, the truth, and the goodness that I found in the Orthodox Church. That I kind of fall here and there, that I get a little bit excited and put my YouTube plaque on my wall. Like, yes, I did. But, the whole project from start to finish was an effort to give glory to God. That's all it is. There is no grift. There is no >> Right.

[00:12:05]>> I'm not part of the CIA. I'm not part [laughter] of the KGB. I'm not a Mossad agent, whatever these people want to say. I'm not a government psyop. And if I was, praise God. You know, if there is a government psyop out there that is leading souls to Christ, praise God.

[00:12:20]>> All right.

[00:12:20]>> Go ahead.

[00:12:21]>> I remember one of the funniest things is something that I always remember. I remember we were I was with you. I think I was at your house. I had to have been at your house cuz your wife was there.

[00:12:29]And you were telling me about something crazy that somebody had said online that they accused you of basically making all this money off of or the Orthodox priests.

[00:12:38]>> Right.

[00:12:38]>> And somebody actually gave like a number like a like some ridiculous number.

[00:12:41]Like, oh, like you're making like And I remember you told me that and we all laughed.

[00:12:46]>> Right.

[00:12:46]>> And I remember your wife was like, "From his lips to God's ears."

[00:12:48]>> [laughter] >> But but I can I can actually um absolutely vouch for you and I can confirm I saw you make a lot of sacrifices to do Roots of Orthodoxy.

[00:13:00]>> Mhm.

[00:13:00]>> You sacrificed a lot and it's true like um you didn't make it you lost money doing Roots of Orthodoxy. You lost a lot of money doing Roots of Orthodoxy because I want everybody to understand and and please talk, you know, those of you that know these priests that have appeared on Roots of Orthodoxy, all you have to do is ask them.

[00:13:18]This man has never charged anybody a dime to interview them, for them to to on Roots of Orthodoxy. he has never charged anybody a dime.

[00:13:30]Ever.

[00:13:31]He has never, as far as I know, I don't think anyone's You always paid out of pocket to travel to go talk to these priests. You You didn't want them to pay your way. You didn't want them to pay like you never He never charged anybody a single dime.

[00:13:44]>> I had I had uh companies reach out to me and say, "Hey, I want to give you a special code if you promote our shop or if you come up promote our product and you can make money from it." And I said, uh give me give me some time. I want to find a charity where we can do this >> and give it to the charity.

[00:14:02]Um we we I didn't end up doing that deal cuz I didn't want to I just didn't want to get involved in it. But I did another one where I partnered with a coffee company.

[00:14:09]>> yeah. That's That's what I was thinking of.

[00:14:11]>> It raises money for uh students, Orthodox students for an Orthodox Christian school. I don't make money from that.

[00:14:17]>> Right.

[00:14:17]>> Um I have it on my link uh on my on my bio >> Yeah.

[00:14:21]>> and that helps support the mission in Kansas City, Missouri. All the Orthodox students there, I mean, you know, they've sent me pictures of the students like working and putting the tags for the Roots of Ortho I'm like, "This is This is awesome."

[00:14:32]>> That's awesome.

[00:14:32]>> But yeah, I don't make money from this.

[00:14:34]Like this is a it's silly, you know, it's a labor of love. It always has been. There is no grifts. Anybody that says that, I implore you >> It really bothers me. It really bothers me when people say that because I've seen again the sacrifices that you've made. I've seen you refuse money. I've seen you lose money. I've seen all of these things and that's why it really really really eats away at me and it really bothers me when people make those accusations against you because they are not true.

[00:14:59]>> Right. The only people that have helped me financially, uh Patristic Nectar when they've flown me out to do contract work for them.

[00:15:05]>> Yeah.

[00:15:06]>> So when they've hired me to be a video and a marketing person >> Which is what you've always done.

[00:15:09]>> Yeah. So that's That wasn't to do Roots of Orthodoxy. That's completely separate. If they need help something with an event like I've helped them.

[00:15:16]Um but yeah, other than that, I've completely stayed away from >> Yeah.

[00:15:20]>> I I think it's right to take money from a church. I don't think it's right to charge priests. I mean, this is a It's a labor of love. It's a it's a project that really inspired me and it's inspired, you know, thousands of people by the grace of God. So, I I feel very comfortable with my conscience. I feel very comfortable.

[00:15:38]People want to lie and slander and make things up. That's their prerogative.

[00:15:42]If anybody If I If I'm ever in a position where I'm slandering somebody, if I'm commenting on people's things, if I'm sending them messages and I'm saying grifter, that should be an indication that there's a spiritual malady >> Right.

[00:15:55]>> underlying my behavior. There is a spiritual infirmity. No spiritually healthy person does that.

[00:16:01]>> those things, right.

[00:16:01]>> No spiritually healthy person would So, I would just ask anybody, just examine yourself, talk to your spiritual father.

[00:16:07]There's no um there's no reason for anybody to be doing that, you know. But, go ahead, like people are going to say what they want, but I am very confident and happy with what with the work that I've done.

[00:16:18]It's been nothing but a a big pleasure.

[00:16:20]>> Yeah.

[00:16:20]>> All the priests that I've got to work with, starting with Father Jesse, all the way to the Metropolitan, Metropolitan Saba, the whole journey has been incredible.

[00:16:29]>> And and something really important that again the audience needs to know, you did not come to the conclusion that Orthodoxy is not true. That's not the conclusion that you came to.

[00:16:38]And and I know because it's the same conclusion that I came to. If you would have asked me, I'm not my my the whole thing isn't that Orthodoxy is not true. Orthodoxy is incomplete.

[00:16:50]It's incomplete. [clears throat] Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, it can't get you all the way there.

[00:16:55]Everything that it has is beautiful, it's good, it's true, but it's missing something.

[00:17:01]>> Right.

[00:17:01]>> And that piece that is missing, you can only find in one place and that's in the Catholic Church.

[00:17:06]>> Yeah.

[00:17:07]>> And and one of the things that uh another one of the the big reasons that I knew that I could leave you alone and I knew that uh I you can go you can go on the journey, you know, I I was always there if you ever had questions, which I don't know if you ever did. Maybe maybe a couple of the times you said, "Hey, I I read this what how what's your understanding of this?" There was a couple of times maybe when you would call me to ask me questions and I would tell you the the Catholic position on it. But, um one of the reasons that I knew that I could leave you alone is because I knew that your heart was in the right place because I knew what your true love was.

[00:17:40]You fell in love with Eastern Christianity.

[00:17:45]>> Mhm.

[00:17:45]>> You fell in love with Byzantine Christianity.

[00:17:51]And And correct me if I'm wrong, but I would go as far as to say is that you didn't fall in love with the Eastern Orthodox communion.

[00:18:00]You fell in love with Eastern Christianity, Byzantine Christianity.

[00:18:05]That's what you fell in love with.

[00:18:07]>> It It's It's partially true, but it's I I wouldn't say I didn't fall in love with the Eastern Orthodox communion because I do feel like there's something unique in the Eastern Orthodox consciousness that really attracted me. This idea that they were very aware of the fact that they are not Roman Catholic. They were very aware that their system, their ethos, their ecclesiology is not what is found in the Catholic Church. That was actually very appealing to me and especially me coming from a conspiracy theory like background. Like I was always really into these things. I wanted to believe that the papacy was an accretion. I wanted to believe that the papacy was manufactured over time, that it was an innovation, that it was the tyrannical big brother that wanted to usurp authority all for himself. But, that simply wasn't true. That narrative is actually false. But, the idea of it was very attractive to me because I wanted to do what nobody else was doing, you know?

[00:18:57]When I started Eastern Orthodox this project Roots of Orthodoxy it was nearly 3 years ago. Just within that time period Orthodoxy has grown tremendously. Just within that time period my first interview is titled The Original Christians You've Never Heard Of.

[00:19:12]>> Right.

[00:19:12]>> Now, this is a title I wouldn't dare put today because everybody knows about Orthodoxy.

[00:19:17]>> Right.

[00:19:18]>> But at the time it was relatively unknown, at least here in the West. I mean, that's just a fact, you know.

[00:19:22]>> [clears throat] >> And I wanted to be a part of something that was kind of like had this, you know, unique flair to it that nobody else was on and and maybe this was the true church that it would had just been buried by oppression and persecution and martyrdom. And the big brother, the the tyrannical Roman Catholic Church, you know, they've they've had the the joy of of of um of having, you know, this this really wealthy, almost enterprise, you know, where Catholic churches [clears throat] everywhere to be found on the entire planet.

[00:19:51]>> And I've always had that like underdog mentality where I'm like, I I just don't want to go for the champion. I want to root for the underdog. And the Eastern Orthodox Church was that for me. Um so, I I I did I wouldn't say I didn't fall in love with the community cuz I certainly did. And I fell in love with the saints that it was producing. You know, Saint John of San Francisco is a big saint for me. Saint Nektarios.

[00:20:10]>> Yeah.

[00:20:10]>> Saint um you know, who Father Seraphim Rose, who will be canonized as a saint. All these amazing figures, I fell in love with that that whole ethos.

[00:20:19]>> Me me, too, by the way. There's a lot of Eastern Orthodox saints from way after the schism that I really love. Did you watch the movie, the Saint Nektarios movie?

[00:20:26]>> I I haven't watched it, no.

[00:20:29]>> Saint Nektarios, pray for us.

[00:20:31]>> Yeah.

[00:20:31]>> I'm a Catholic and I can say Saint Nektarios, pray for us.

[00:20:34]>> Actually, real quick, I have an icon here of Saint Nektarios. So, this was the first icon that was given to me. It was given to me by a wonderful priest, Father Paul Chubenbach. And so, this is the first icon I ever received from an Orthodox priest or from anybody. You know, this was the first icon ever that I had. And when he gave it to me, I'm like, cool. Like, I I I appreciate it. I didn't know anything about who this man was. And I I didn't draw the significance of this until just recently. In fact, maybe just this past week.

[00:21:06]Saint Nektarios is a saint that was heavily slandered.

[00:21:09]>> Yeah.

[00:21:10]>> He was a saint where people were uh throwing all these accusations against him. And St. Nektarios, of course, has more grace and more humility than I do.

[00:21:18]>> He >> He took it with so much grace and and favor and and he he is the example. He is really and truly the example.

[00:21:28]And >> You You don't know the half of it, man.

[00:21:30]You got to watch the movie. Jelena Popovich put together a beautiful film.

[00:21:35]Watch the movie, man, because uh you you don't know the half of it, man. Like, the stuff that he went through.

[00:21:39]>> I heard yeah.

[00:21:40]>> Bro, bro.

[00:21:41]>> Yeah.

[00:21:41]>> He Oh, if we could be half as holy as a a small fraction of the holiness of that man.

[00:21:48]>> Yeah.

[00:21:48]>> St. Nektarios, pray for us.

[00:21:50]>> But it's very fitting that God had it be the case that this is the first icon that I received because it's very applicable to my story. It was a sign that you will be slandered.

[00:22:00]By partaking this journey, they will hate you for it.

[00:22:03]>> You'll be betrayed. He was betrayed.

[00:22:05]>> You will be betrayed by the people that were championing you. The people that uh that they want they wish that there was an ulterior motive.

[00:22:13]>> Yeah.

[00:22:13]>> All of this stuff about being an ecumenist and trying to subvert the Orthodox Church, all of it's nonsense.

[00:22:19]If you go to Roots of Orthodoxy right now, so much of the content is against the Catholic Church. It's against the Catholic Church. There's a wide spectrum. I interviewed conservative priests. I interviewed um liberal priests. I interviewed people that were in the middle. I interviewed people that are ecumenist minded. And I interviewed people that aren't that they're more traditional, they're more anti-ecumenist. It was simply platforming these people.

[00:22:43]And they started tacking on all these accusations. Like, he he there's a there has to be an agenda. There is no way that there exists a person that would give so much, that would sacrifice so much for something they don't even belong to. There's just no way that this person exists. Well, I'm sorry to say, like, that's me. Like, there was nothing in it for me. There really was nothing in it for me >> You were in love. than the experience and the love of doing what I'm doing.

[00:23:08]So, yeah, I mean that's that's pretty much it. Like, yeah, yeah, I I I truly was. I didn't want the papacy to be true. Like, I want I want to hammer that home.

[00:23:18]I did not want the papacy to be true, but the evidence was too strong. The evidence was far too strong. In fact, you don't even have to go as far as councils and church fathers and and church history, all of the papal claims, they're actually right here. They're in the Bible.

[00:23:34]When I started to read the scriptures for myself and I started looking closely and not what people were telling me, I was like, "The papal claims are literally in the scriptures.

[00:23:45]The papacy is imbued into the church, into the faith. It is right here." And we're actually going to go into it here in this video, but I want to hear what you have to say about that.

[00:23:54]>> The reason that I'm chuckling is cuz I remember telling you in the very beginning when you started this, I was like, "Hey, bro, if you read the Bible and read the councils, like, you'll see the Catholic the Catholics are right." And I remember you told me you were like, "Yeah, but I like to do everything backwards. So, I'm going to I'm like I know that's another thing that I've known about you, too. You love to do everything backwards. So, I'm like, "All right, go ahead." But, I told I was like, "But, just so you know, like, you can make this a lot easier if you just read the Bible and read like the councils, the ecumenical councils."

[00:24:19]And he's like, "Yeah, I know, but I'm going to do that last." And I'm like, "All right." And um >> I think it's more profitable for my journey to to learn it like I'm at my pace and you know, I think I'm glad I did that.

[00:24:30]>> And and I can tell that you're more of an experiential learner. So, you had to experience and it's beautiful because the the experience is >> [clears throat] >> necessary as well. Again, that's another thing that I want everyone that watches this cuz there's so many of you that are watching this right now that you have loved ones, friends, family members that maybe are not Catholic and you want more than anything for them to be Catholic.

[00:24:51]I want everybody to know, you you, audience member listening, you cannot bring anybody to the Catholic Church. I cannot bring anybody to the Catholic Church. I was I could not bring this man uh to I could not convince this man to stay in the Catholic Church.

[00:25:05]That's something that only God can do.

[00:25:08]But you have to remember that God is a gentleman and God cooperates with all of us.

[00:25:12]>> Mhm.

[00:25:12]>> God cooperates with all of us.

[00:25:14]And he meets us where we are.

[00:25:17]And he helps us slowly but surely he guides us to the fullness of truth.

[00:25:21]I could not speed that process up for for my brother. You cannot speed that process up for your loved ones. You have to let God do the work.

[00:25:29]It It's not up to you.

[00:25:33]But if you're patient and you just let God do what God does, eventually you'll see that it was a better It was a better that the that the person took their time >> [snorts] >> because I can imagine that if Jonathan would have just opened the Bible or read the Ecumenical Councils in the very beginning and said, "Okay, cool. Like All right. Catholic it is."

[00:25:54]There was all of these fruits that we would have missed out on.

[00:25:57]>> Yeah.

[00:25:57]>> There's so many good things that have happened to both of us because of Roots of Orthodoxy.

[00:26:00]>> And your faith isn't actually as stable.

[00:26:02]>> Yeah.

[00:26:02]>> If you didn't come to that conclusion the proper way where it is rooted in something a strong foundation, >> Yeah.

[00:26:09]>> it's a it's a lot easier to lose it.

[00:26:11]>> Yeah, you can Exactly. Who knows? Maybe if you had opened up the Bible and read the Councils today, you know, back then, 3 years ago, maybe today you wouldn't be Catholic.

[00:26:19]>> This is actually a good point that you bring up. So, I don't know if you remember this nearly 3 years ago we were with Michael Lofton.

[00:26:25]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:26]>> I was telling him this idea for Roots of Orthodoxy and I could just see it on his face. He's like >> [laughter] >> He's like, "What are you doing? Like You know, like why?" You know?

[00:26:34]>> Shout out to Michael Lofton. Love you, Michael.

[00:26:35]>> Michael Lofton is is awesome. He gave us a copy of his book, Answering Orthodoxy.

[00:26:41]I know for a fact, had I read that book back then when he gave it to me, it wouldn't have made sense to me.

[00:26:47]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:48]>> I'm actually glad that I waited until just recently. I just I just recently read the book maybe a couple weeks ago.

[00:26:54]>> Yep.

[00:26:54]>> Everything clicked. Everything clicked.

[00:26:57]I would not have that experience if I didn't do my project.

[00:27:01]>> And I know that.

[00:27:02]>> He prefaces the book with Proverbs 18:17. It says, "He who states his case at first >> seems right.

[00:27:09]>> seems right until the other comes and examines him."

[00:27:11]>> Yep.

[00:27:12]>> When you listen to Orthodox and the objections they make against the papacy and against the Catholic Church, it sounds true. It sounds like it makes sense. You pull up St. Gregory the Great, you know, "He who desires to be the universal bishop, let let it be known that he is the precursor to the Antichrist." Oh my gosh, like he's condemning the papacy right here. There is no way that he is not condemning what later becomes the papacy or the papal supremacy.

[00:27:36]>> Right.

[00:27:36]>> Then [clears throat] you actually look into the quote and say, "Wait a minute."

[00:27:38]>> Yeah, that's not what he >> saying that.

[00:27:40]>> Yeah.

[00:27:40]>> He wasn't talking about that.

[00:27:42]>> He was actually talking to, ironically, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

[00:27:46]>> that always wants to usurp authority for himself was the patriarch >> He was actually checking him because he was the one that was trying to >> John the Faster.

[00:27:54]>> Yeah, John the Faster.

[00:27:55]>> He wanted to become the single bishop.

[00:27:57]>> Yeah.

[00:27:57]>> He wanted to usurp authority.

[00:27:58]>> wanted to be Yeah.

[00:27:59]>> So, and and we can get into all these objections. I mean, there's plenty of evidence.

[00:28:04]>> Well, you're getting me excited now. So, let's just get into it, bro. Tell me tell the audience walk us through your whole journey. Tell us what you discovered, what you found out. I've been yapping enough. I'm done.

[00:28:14]It's on you, man. I want I want to hear it. The audience wants to hear it. How did you come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

[00:28:23]>> So, there are many areas that the Orthodox put us to shame in.

[00:28:26]>> Mhm.

[00:28:26]>> Many areas, you know, you have asceticism, you have this willingness and this this instinct for the preservation of tradition and the faith.

[00:28:37]You have the spirituality. It's very unique. It's very strong. It's very nourishing.

[00:28:44]What I found is spiritually the Eastern Orthodox Church was amazing. There's so much depth to it. There's so many There's so much treasure, so many riches, so many jewels.

[00:28:54]>> Yep.

[00:28:56]>> But I'll say what Metropolitan Kallistos Ware said, you know, and Lord willing one day he'll be canonized a saint. He said the inner sacramental life of the Christian is primary and the ecclesiological nature and external structure of the church is secondary.

[00:29:13]And I think in this statement sums up what we find in the Orthodox Church.

[00:29:19]Spiritually you're going to have a blast. It's going to be amazing. You're going to be invited into the liturgical cycle. You You really feel like you're a part of something, a living tradition.

[00:29:30]But at the ecclesiological level at the with when you take a look at the ecclesial structure, it's almost absolute chaos. And I say that with deep love and respect.

[00:29:40]But them not having a consensus on the primatial authority of their church. In fact, to this day, if I'm not mistaken, they have still not come to a consensus on what constitutes legitimate primacy.

[00:29:53]>> Good.

[00:29:53]>> Father Alexander Schmemann, who's an Eastern Orthodox respected theologian, historian, scholar.

[00:29:59]>> Scholar.

[00:29:59]>> He says it is a shame that we still haven't, you know, to this very day it's it's still hasn't been and he was writing in the, you know, 20th century.

[00:30:07]>> Yeah.

[00:30:09]>> And so it's really This is This is what you're going to have to This is the wall that you going to hit.

[00:30:16]Conversely, the Catholic Church almost seems to have the opposite problem. The hierarchical structure, the ecclesial nature of the church is very neat, it's very tidy. It makes sense. Everything You want your answers, it's there. You have an official catechism, you have universal teaching, universal doctrine, you have one faith.

[00:30:32]In the spiritual aspect of it, the everyday living, it's a little bit more challenging to find um a richer uh, And I don't want to A lot of people think I'm a rad trad. I'm not a rad trad. I I go to Novus Ordos. I love attend anywhere where Christ is, I love it. Um, but we have to call a spade a spade. It is harder to find certain things in the Western modern tradition, but here's what I found.

[00:31:01]The papacy was not something that could be ignored. In fact, it was by design that Christ established it for his church. It was by design that he instituted an office and a mechanism for the preservation of his teachings of the true faith. It was not a coincidence that this has happened.

[00:31:23]This is written in the scriptures. We can [snorts] open it up here in a second. But the papacy is true, it is biblical, and it is apostolic. In fact, it is the one of the most ancient apostolic beliefs. I think at first glance everyone's going to like be completely flabbergasted by that statement. How is this idea of papal supremacy and papal infallibility? You're saying that's ancient? You're saying that's apostolic? You're saying that this wasn't a development and innovation?

[00:31:55]100%? [laughter] It was there since the very beginning.

[00:31:59]We have to strip those two teachings, papal supremacy and papal infallibility. If we strip them down to their very basic and fundamental premise, we can just work off of those two definitions. And here's why we can do that. Here's actually why we don't have to prove Vatican I, ordinary immediate episcopal jurisdiction, you know, we don't have to we don't have to do all that.

[00:32:22]>> Even though we can, by the way. You can all of those things, the the I guess the most extreme version maximal and yeah.

[00:32:28]You can actually can prove that from the early church as well. But the but the whole point, the point that you're getting at is that it you you don't need to because there's something that's more fundamental that underlies all of that.

[00:32:39]>> Church is the only one that holds to.

[00:32:41]So, the Oriental Orthodox Church doesn't believe this. The Eastern Orthodox Church doesn't believe this. The Assyrian Church of the East doesn't believe this.

[00:32:46]>> So, the outlier here is the Catholic Church. Let's examine what it is that the Catholic Church teaches. Papal supremacy, it's this teaching that Christ gave authority to St. Peter alone to have a singular office that is perpetual, that lives on after the time of St. Peter, and it lives on in his successors for the preservation of the true faith.

[00:33:06]>> Of the universal faith. Of the Catholic faith.

[00:33:09]>> It is a teaching that Christ gave authority to St. Peter to be the pastor, to be the shepherd over the universal flock of Christ. And that includes the other apostles. The other apostles are shepherds in their own right, and they are legitimate shepherds. I want to make that very clear. The teaching of papal supremacy isn't that Peter is the singular bishop. That's not That's condemned. We saw that with St. Gregory the Great. That is a condemned teaching.

[00:33:32]But, it's the teaching that he alone is granted to be the shepherd out of love >> universal flock.

[00:33:38]>> He is entrusted with the care of his brethren. I want to emphasize that because people If you want to hold up this icon right here, so this is >> Beautiful. I love this icon.

[00:33:48]>> This is an icon of Holy Mother Church being held up by the apostles.

[00:33:54]And it's Saints Peter and Paul holding up the Church. Now, somebody might look at this and say, "Well, this it contradicts papal supremacy. Why isn't Peter in the center? Why isn't it just him and the apostles beneath him?" Because that is not the teaching of papal supremacy. In fact, that is anti-biblical. Christ himself condemns this posture. Uh Luke 22 verses 24, when the it's it's um it's the Last Supper.

[00:34:21]Christ just instituted the Eucharist.

[00:34:23]This is the night that Judas was to betray Christ, and the apostles are bickering amongst themselves, "Who among us is the greatest?" And Christ shuts down the bickering, but he doesn't say, "Well, none of you will be great." He doesn't shut down the idea.

[00:34:36]>> He actually gives them an answer.

[00:34:37]>> He gives them an answer and >> It's this teaching that is papal primacy. It is this teaching that St. Peter is to be entrusted with the care of his brethren. He says, "Actually, we can pull it up."

[00:34:50]>> And infallibility, too.

[00:34:51]>> Well, we're going to Yeah, we're going to get into infallibility, but I want to pull this up right here.

[00:34:55]>> Papal infallibility is rooted specifically in Luke 22, actually.

[00:34:58]>> Let's go to Luke 22.

[00:35:01]>> Yeah.

[00:35:06]I feel like a proud big brother right now. Just so that like my boy is he's running the show.

[00:35:12]This This usually would be my job, but he's doing it.

[00:35:14]>> Hey, I I learned a lot from you, so you know, I give credit where credit's due.

[00:35:18]>> you, brother. Thank God.

[00:35:20]>> Okay, [clears throat] we're going to start in verse 24 just to give the context for people that haven't read it.

[00:35:25]A dispute also arose among them which of them was to be regarded as the greatest.

[00:35:29]And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are are called benefactors, but not so with you.

[00:35:38]Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest and the leader as one who serves. For which is the greater, one who sits at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who sits at table? But I am among you as one who serves." Let's Let's put a pin on that real quick.

[00:35:54]Christ is is teaching them about this idea of a servant headship.

[00:35:59]>> Mhm.

[00:35:59]>> This idea [clears throat] that being the head doesn't necessarily mean that you're not the servant and being the servant doesn't necessarily mean that you can't lead. So, he's teaching them about this idea of servant headship. One who's the greatest, he's going to serve.

[00:36:12]And in fact, Christ himself, he was washing the apostles' feet. Christ the almighty, think about that. Christ the almighty, the the lord of lords, the king of kings, the creator of heaven and earth, you know, he is washing the apostles' feet. He is the one healing. He is the one teaching.

[00:36:27]He is the one serving, he is the one feeding people with bread, he is the one you know, helping the multitude.

[00:36:33]He's giving us the prime example of a servant headship role. And then here's here's the the the differentiating factor here.

[00:36:41]Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, and the you here in the Greek is plural. He's addressing the apostles.

[00:36:49]So, he knows that Satan wants the apostles, he wants to divide the apostles.

[00:36:54]But what does he do here?

[00:36:55]That he might sift you like wheat. But I have prayed for you, and this is the Greek singular, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren. So, right here we see the seed of people infallibility. Now, some people might say, "This is ridiculous. How is it that his faith may not fail? Doesn't he later go on to condemn or or to deny Christ three times that same night?" Well, we have to make a distinction here. What is What are we talking about when it comes to faith? Are we talking about personal moral failures? Are we talking about cowardice? Are we talking about how how Peter betrayed our Lord? Or are we talking about the preservation of faith and doctrine and true faith?

[00:37:36]>> Correct. Christ said that his faith would not fail, not that his character would not fail. We know that Peter, the Apostle Peter, St. Peter had many failings morally, personally, but Christ prayed for his faith to not fail. And that's exactly the the the distinction that we or the or the precise understanding of people infallibility, that it is only the faith, whenever the Pope is speaking on matters of faith, that he [snorts] is protected by the Holy Spirit from ever teaching error to the universal church. It is the faith of the Pope that doesn't fail. The faith that he binds the universal church to.

[00:38:16]This is why we can also say that Peter that the faith of Peter is the rock in Matthew 16, because it is the faith that is infallible.

[00:38:25]The infallible faith, the faith that does not fail, it is what Peter teaches.

[00:38:31]It is what he believes and what he expects the universal church to believe.

[00:38:35]That is literally what was defined by Vatican I. That is people infallibility.

[00:38:41]It's Petrine infallibility.

[00:38:43]>> Now, somebody wants to say, "You're reading too much into it. There's no way that you can make this connection that it's a personal moral failure over you know, a belief in Christ." But we actually read in chapter 22, it's still Luke 22.

[00:38:55]>> Yeah, it's in that same passage. He goes on to say, "By the way, he's cuz he says, when you turn again." So, Jesus is already saying that Peter's going to have a failing, a moral failing.

[00:39:05]But when you turn again, you strengthen your brethren. So, now if if you want to say that we're reading too much into it, now you have to say that Jesus's prayer failed. Right. Cuz he said, "I've prayed for you that your faith may not fail."

[00:39:17]And if you want to say that, no, his faith failed, now you have to say that Jesus prayed a prayer that was not answered by the Father.

[00:39:25]>> Yeah, and if you go to Luke 22:61, this is after Peter denies Christ three times. It's after the the the you know, the um the crows.

[00:39:36]It says here, "And the Lord turned and looked at Peter, and Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said to him, 'Before the crows today, you will deny me three times.' And he went out and wept bitterly."

[00:39:49]>> Good.

[00:39:49]>> This is important because it shows us that Peter still believed that Christ was the Lord.

[00:39:55]He still believed that Christ is who he the same confession that he had given in Matthew. He still believed that in this moment.

[00:40:02]>> So, his faith actually didn't fail. He wept bitterly. If his faith had failed, he would have had no qualms about what he had done.

[00:40:08]>> have gone back to his normal regular life.

[00:40:11]So, his character fell, but not his faith. And that's you know, a lot of thing a lot of people think that when we say people infallibility that we we mean impeccability.

[00:40:22]The Pope is not impeccable. He is infallible and there is a difference.

[00:40:25]Infallibility refers to what he teaches as the Pope. Impeccability would refer to his own personal character, but that's not what we believe. We don't believe in in people impeccability. We only believe in people infallibility.

[00:40:38]There is a difference.

[00:40:39]>> Right. All right, so we're going to look at the Church Fathers because as Catholics and Orthodox, it's important to ground ourselves in what the Church Fathers taught and believed. And the patristic witness is important for both of us. So, we're going to look at none other than Pope St. Leo the Great, who is a saint. He is a revered and venerated saint for both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church. This is what he had to say commenting on Luke 22. He says, "The Lord says, 'Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee that thy faith not fail not. And when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.'" The And this this goes on to his commentary. "The danger from the temptation of fear was common to all the apostles and all equally needed the aid of the divine protection. And yet, special care is taken of Peter by the Lord and he prayed specially for Peter's faith as if the state of the others would be more certain if the mind of their chief was not overcome. In Peter, therefore, the strength of all is fortified and the assistance of divine grace is so ordered that the stability which through Christ is given to Peter, through Peter is conveyed to the apostles." Now, somebody might say, "Well, Pope St. Leo the Great Protestant historians and even Eastern Orthodox scholars have already conceded that Vatican I prerogatives can be found in Pope St. Leo the Great. So, maybe don't use him as an example." What he's saying here is actually not new. We can go to St. Optatus of Milevis when he's writing against the Donatists. He says the same thing, but he's writing before Pope St. Leo the Great. He says >> St. Ambrose said the same thing. St. Jerome said the same thing.

[00:42:09]Um there are so many Western Church Fathers that actually said the same thing. And here's another thing, the ecumenical council said the same thing.

[00:42:16]The ecumenical councils that are shared by both the Catholic and the Orthodox churches actually use Luke 22. They use Matthew 16. They use John 21 to establish the prerogatives of the Pope, which are the exact same prerogatives that were going to be defined at Vatican I. So, ecumenical councils interpreted Luke 22 in the way that Catholics interpret Luke 22.

[00:42:39]>> Yeah, it's not a novel teaching.

[00:42:40]>> Yeah, it's not a novel teaching.

[00:42:41]>> It's not post-schism. It is in the first millennium. It is by common commonly held saints and church fathers.

[00:42:49]I want to read what St. Optatus of Milevis what he wrote against Donatus.

[00:42:53]He's writing in the 4th century and he says this specifically, "For the good of unity, blessed Peter, for whom it would have been enough if after his denial he had obtained pardon only, deserved to be placed before all the apostles and alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven to be communicated to the rest."

[00:43:11]So, this is saying the exact same thing that Pope St. Leo the Great had said here at the very end of his statement that said that that says that the assistance of divine grace is so ordered that the stability which through Christ is given to Peter, through Peter is conveyed to the apostles. So, there's this idea that all the apostles have the keys. I've seen videos that say, "Well, the keys it's it's the binding and loosing. We can conflate the two. So, therefore Peter has nothing unique."

[00:43:35]This is false. We read here at St. Optatus, "The keys were given to Peter alone." Period. I want to put a point on that.

[00:43:42]However, the apostles, the apostolic college, also share and they have they possess the keys. Well, how did I not just contradict myself?

[00:43:51]They only possess the keys through Peter and through their unity with Peter.

[00:43:57]>> Peter shares the keys.

[00:43:58]>> Peter shares the keys.

[00:43:59]>> the keys with the rest of the apostles.

[00:44:00]>> Peter was given the keys alone by Christ. You can say the apostles received the keys indirectly by Christ by virtue of Peter. That's fine.

[00:44:08]>> Right.

[00:44:08]>> But Peter receives the keys alone, and we need to stop letting people say otherwise.

[00:44:13]And I want to pivot to Peter being the rock because for some reason there's a double standard when it comes to Catholic teaching. When it comes to criticizing Catholic teaching, there's always this double standard.

[00:44:28]First of all, and I brought this up in our discussion with the Oriental Orthodox when we did the three versus three.

[00:44:35]There's this idea that we need to prove Vatican I, something that is fully developed, it is fleshed out in all of its extremities. We need to prove that in the first century or in the Bible.

[00:44:49]You wouldn't have this approach with any other doctrine. You wouldn't have this with the Trinity. You wouldn't have this with icon veneration. You wouldn't say, "Prove to me Council of Nicaea II 787 >> Right.

[00:45:00]>> the formulation of icon veneration exactly as it is articulated >> in the early church in the >> 8th century. I want to see that in the first century." You wouldn't do that because that would be stupid, 100%.

[00:45:14]So, don't do that with Vatican I because that is that is backwards.

[00:45:18]>> irony again, and I I want to always want to stress this out cuz a lot of anti-Catholics will say, "Oh, that's a cop-out." The irony though is that we can though what that every Vatican I in its in its fullness, you can actually find it in the early church. But you're making a very good point is that it's a double standard because a lot of the Eastern Orthodox apologists don't use that same standard for all of their their beliefs either.

[00:45:44]>> Right.

[00:45:44]>> So, you don't find you know, like the language of Nicaea, where do you find the language of Nicaea I in the in the early church?

[00:45:51]>> Homoousios?

[00:45:52]>> Where do you find homoousios in the early church? Concepts that you don't find that language.

[00:45:55]>> The formulation of the Nicene Constantinople Creed, the formulation of the Nicene Constantinople Creed, yes.

[00:46:00]>> Yes.

[00:46:01]>> That language is >> found.

[00:46:03]>> It's not found, but it is >> you're not going to say Yeah, but you're not going to say that it wasn't true.

[00:46:07]>> Yeah.

[00:46:07]>> In the same way, just because you don't find as as you're explaining right now, just because you don't find all of the fully developed language, it doesn't mean that it wasn't true, because you can actually find it in act.

[00:46:20]You can actually find it in the acts of the bishops of Rome. But >> We're going to get into doctrinal development here in a second, but I want to go back to what I was saying about the double standard. So, there's a double standard when it comes to developed language >> Yeah.

[00:46:31]>> and there's a double standard as it relates to exegesis, exegetical interpretation of the scriptures.

[00:46:39]We know that the scriptures are full of multi-layered verses, that they are textured with so many different levels.

[00:46:47]I mean, you take a look at Origen, he has this very allegorical level. You take a look at like St. John Chrysostom, he can give like a moral >> Just multiple meanings.

[00:46:54]>> There's multiple meanings even on the literal level. It doesn't have to be like this is spiritual, this is physical.

[00:47:00]There's multiple meanings.

[00:47:01]>> Yeah.

[00:47:01]>> All for some reason, all of that goes out the window when it comes to Matthew 16:18.

[00:47:05]>> Right.

[00:47:06]>> St. John Chrysostom said that St. Peter's confession of faith is the rock, so therefore it is exclusively and singularly the conf- And don't ever talk to me about Christ being the rock or Peter being the rock. It is exclusively conf- You would never do that. So, why are we doing that here? In fact, Peter is the rock, that is the patristic witness.

[00:47:24]>> Yep. But absolutely.

[00:47:26]>> Peter being the rock isn't at the isn't not in opposition to the other interpretation. Christ is certainly the rock.

[00:47:33]>> Right.

[00:47:33]>> Our catechism, the catechism of the Catholic Church >> Says it's all three.

[00:47:36]>> Christ is a living stone.

[00:47:37]>> Christ is the rock, Peter is the rock, Peter's confession is the rock. Yes. The The catechism says that all of the apostles are the rock.

[00:47:44]>> They're mutually complementary. So, they're not in opposition to each other.

[00:47:47]And just like in other passages throughout scripture, we can have multiple readings, we can have acceptable readings. But don't don't do that to the scriptures, because that is you're actually going against the Orthodox teaching. And we're actually going to go into Eastern Orthodox scholar Dr. Sochensky, very respected by both Catholics and Orthodox. We're going to get into that here shortly, but I want to hammer home this point of Peter being the rock.

[00:48:11]First of all, when we read a church father, we don't just take them at face value when they say something about a certain interpretation. They did not have this monolithic you know, this means this and therefore >> That's it. Yeah.

[00:48:26]>> That's it. I'm never going to change my mind or that this contradicts anything else that I've taught in >> Right.

[00:48:31]>> St. John Chrysostom also in his homily on almsgiving, he talks about Peter being the unbroken rock and the firm foundation. So, we have St. John Chrysostom also referring to Peter as the rock. How is he contradicting himself?

[00:48:43]>> He's not.

[00:48:44]>> He's not contradicting himself. This is how the faith has always been. This is Orthodox. This is Catholic. We need to stop with it.

[00:48:50]>> All three interpretations of the rock, that it's Jesus, that it's Peter as the person, and that it's Peter's faith, all three of those are universal interpretations.

[00:48:58]>> Yeah.

[00:48:58]>> And many church fathers say all three in their writings too. So, they're being sneaky whenever they singled out one particular quote from a church father that says, "Oh, it says here that Jesus is the rock."

[00:49:10]That same church father in other writings of his also says that Peter is the rock and that Peter's faith is the rock. So, don't let people do that to you whenever you're having these conversations. Don't let them take the church fathers out of context and quote mine.

[00:49:21]>> Yeah, before we get Matthew 16:18, I want to go to this book. It's called The Papacy and The Orthodox. It's a wonderful book. It's it's probably the most thorough >> Sochenskey is my favorite Eastern Orthodox scholar.

[00:49:35]>> Yeah, it's probably the most thorough overview, I would say, about the source it's it's the subheading is Sources and History of a Debate.

[00:49:41]>> Yeah. Whenever I prepare for debates, cuz I've had debates against Eastern Orthodox apologists before, I read the only sources that I need are that book that you're holding and also His Broken Body.

[00:49:52]Those two are the only you can actually come to the Catholic conclusions from those two books alone and you can everything that you need to debate Eastern Orthodox are in those two books.

[00:50:03]>> I'm going to go to page 70 for people that own this book. He says, this is Sichensky speaking. He says, "Modern biblical scholarship focusing on the saying in its presumed original language, Aramaic, where the word play employed by Jesus comes across more clearly, you are Kepha and upon this Kepha I will build my church has increasingly come to a consensus that Peter, Kepha, is indeed the rock, Kepha, and that this is entirely consistent with Matthew's view of Peter as the authority as the authoritative witness to and guarantor of the Jesus tradition." So, he's talking about modern biblical scholarship. Some people might say, "Well, that's modern biblical." Well, let's go into the patristic witness here. If you turn to page 124, Sichensky says, and he's commenting on Loose's interpretation of it of of the rock being a Roman interpretation, he actually shuts that down. He says, "Loose's fourth approach is the so-called Roman interpretation.

[00:50:56]Although, like the {quote} Eastern interpretation, this name is rather misleading. The identification of Peter as the rock or foundation upon which the church is built is hardly a Roman invention and as shown in the last chapter was probably the intent of the evangelist himself." So, not only do we see that this is according to the church is teaching, but he's saying the gospel writer himself that this was probably his intent. Which us as Catholics would say, of course it was his intent. That's why we see the name change. That's why we see that specifically written in Matthew and no other gospel.

[00:51:31]>> And and by the way, it's really really really easy to get to the bottom of this whole this whole controversy. Oh, Peter was the rock or was he not the rock? If you go to John 1, John 1 proves that Peter was the rock because in John 1, Jesus changes Simon's name to Peter, but Peter doesn't say anything. There are no recorded words of Peter in John chapter 1. So, when people say, "It's only Peter's faith that is the rock, but not Peter himself." You say, "No, no, no. In John chapter 1, Peter changes uh Jesus changes Simon's name to Peter, and Peter doesn't say anything. John chapter 1, there is no words from Peter that is recorded. There is no dialogue that is recorded from St. Peter, from Si- Simon.

[00:52:16]And he was name was still changed to Peter. So, yes, from John chapter 1 alone, you have to come to the conclusion that Peter as as the person, Peter in his person is the rock. So, you know, especially like with Protestants, Protestants always say, "Well, scripture interprets scripture." Okay, then you have to say that John 1 interprets Matthew 16. [clears throat] And according to John 1, uh in Matthew 16, Jesus makes Peter personally the rock.

[00:52:42]>> Yeah. I want to go to Matthew 16:18 because we have to get this right.

[00:52:48]Who is the Gospel of Matthew written for? It's written primarily for a 1st century Jewish audience. We know this because Matthew, he over and over again appeals to Jewish customs, traditions, expressions, and idioms, and he knows that he's talking to a Jewish audience, and he never explains himself because he takes for granted that they already understand him. In fact, he opens up the Gospel of Matthew by connecting um Christ as a descendant of Abraham and through the house of David.

[00:53:12]So, he's very clearly seen a a connection and an importance that this would be important for the Jews. So, with that in mind, prefacing that idea that the Gospel of Matthew is written for Jews, why is Matthew 16:18 so important here?

[00:53:27]He's talking to Jews because he knows the account and the narrative that he gives, where he says that Christ gave authority to Peter, and he gave him the keys of the kingdom of heaven, the binding and loosing language, the name change from Simon uh to Peter, All of this would have been completely resonant to the Jewish year. The Jews would have immediately recognized what is happening here. First, the name change is a it's a calling to a mission in God's plan. We know that it's a sign of a a covenant or some some type of investiture that is in the scriptures. We see Abram becomes Abraham. We see that Jacob becomes Israel. And we see that Simon becomes Peter. And that name change is very significant. Go ahead and say what you want to >> is really important. It's something that a lot of people actually leave out when it comes to the name changes.

[00:54:17]These name changes always the meaning of the the particular ones that you actually that you actually mentioned. Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel. Do you know why it's so important that Pete that Simon got his name changed?

[00:54:34]Because in those other two instances, Abram and and Abram and um Jacob their name changes signified that those individual people now represent all of God's people.

[00:54:50]That's what it means. Because Abram means father.

[00:54:54]Abraham means father [clears throat] of of many or father of all, father of all nations. Jacob, his name literally changed to Israel. Israel literally means all of God's people.

[00:55:06]So, whenever a name change is given in the Bible, it's because that person whose name was changed is now representing more than just himself. He is now representing all of God's people.

[00:55:18]So, so Simon getting his name changed to Peter it's because he represents singularly represents the universal church. He represents all of God's people.

[00:55:29]>> 100%. And I love that you brought that up, that connection. Because you know, shout out to Ignatius Press. They sent me this beautiful study Bible. I cannot recommend it enough because the footnotes that are in here >> Amazing.

[00:55:39]>> the connections that the editors are making here, they're they're gold. So, if we actually go to Matthew 16:18 here in the study Bible, we're actually going to read if you look at the footnotes the editor, I'm not sure if it's Dr. Scott Hahn or one of the other editors, he makes a very interesting connection here between Peter and Abraham.

[00:56:01]>> Yep.

[00:56:03]>> in verse s- uh 17 when Christ says "Blessed are you." It says here that Jesus blesses Peter and elevates him to be the chief patriarch of the new covenant.

[00:56:15]Parallels between Genesis and Jesus' words suggest that Peter assumes a role in salvation history similar to Abraham's. Number one, both are blessed by God. If you go to Genesis chapter 14 verse 19 both respond with heroic faith according to Hebrews chapter 11 verse 8.

[00:56:34]Number three, both receive a divine mission. If you go back to Genesis uh 12 verses 1 through 3 number four, both have their names changed. If you go back to Genesis 17 verse 5 number five, both are called a rock. If you go back to Isaiah 51 verses 1 through 2 and number six, both are assured of victory over the gates of their enemies.

[00:56:57]So, there's so many interesting connections and parallels. And the gospel authors, they were very cognizant of this fact. This isn't in here by accident.

[00:57:05]>> Right.

[00:57:06]>> They know who they're speaking to. They know they would have recognized these parallels.

[00:57:09]>> purpose.

[00:57:10]>> And the major one, of course, we're going to go into Isaiah 22 where we see that Eliakim replaces Shebna as the successor. He is the He's made the prime minister. He holds the keys. It says he receives the keys of the house of David and that what he shall shut, none shall open, and what he shall open, none shall shut. Of course, this language is extremely consonant with what we see in Matthew 16 verses 18 through 19.

[00:57:38]That language would have been immediately >> recognizable to the the Jews that knew their Hebrew scriptures.

[00:57:42]>> Yeah, and here's the main here's the main point that I want to bring up there. Who is the Old Testament prophet that is the most named in the Gospel of Matthew?

[00:57:49]>> Isaiah, yeah.

[00:57:49]>> It is Isaiah because Matthew is speaking to Jews that know Isaiah. He that they're very familiar with Isaiah. This This would not have been ignored. This This would have been recognized immediately.

[00:58:01]>> Right.

[00:58:01]>> Um and the Jews knew what was taking place here. There are so many parallels.

[00:58:06]We cannot ignore it. Um Peter is made the rock. He's given a mission. He is given the call to be the pastor over the sheep of the flock of Christ. This is evident from the scriptures alone. Most of my findings throughout this journey really they started to click the most just from the scriptures.

[00:58:22]>> Yeah.

[00:58:23]>> Just from the scriptures alone I started to see >> man.

[00:58:26]>> I started to see it come to life.

[00:58:27]>> From the Bible alone.

[00:58:29]From sola scriptura you can come to the conclusion of the Catholic papacy.

[00:58:34]>> Yeah. I think I think what turns people off is the term supremacy. I think they think that term, especially in our day and age when you hear things like white supremacy or black supremacy, yeah.

[00:58:44]They think it's like we're elevating something at the expense of other people.

[00:58:48]>> You know what's interesting? A lot of people don't know this. Do you know that papal supremacy isn't a term that the Catholic Church uses?

[00:58:53]The Catholic Church doesn't have it doesn't use the term papal supremacy.

[00:58:57]>> Primacy of jurisdiction, yeah.

[00:58:58]>> papal primacy of jurisdiction. Another Another thing it's kind of funny. Um there's a a lot of terms that a lot of people think came from the Catholic Church that didn't come from the Catholic Church.

[00:59:09]Um well >> Roman Catholic is one of them.

[00:59:12]>> Roman Catholic is one of them, yeah. We don't that's not our We We just Catholic, but um anyway, this is We don't need to get into all of that. Keep going. Keep going.

[00:59:19]>> Well, once I started to see that connection, of course we have Isaiah and Matthew. We see this language. It's a It's a direct structural parallel. It is direct. It cannot be overlooked. Now, some people might say, "Well, the church fathers, they interpreted this verse as Christ being the one with the keys."

[00:59:38]In fact, I love that that gets brought up because this goes to another example of a mutual and a complimentary interpretation. Of course, Christ has the keys.

[00:59:48]And just as David had the keys.

[00:59:50]>> Right.

[00:59:50]>> That's why the That's why the the prime minister has the keys because he was given the keys.

[00:59:55]>> Right.

[00:59:55]>> Christ gives the keys to Peter.

[00:59:57]>> Right.

[00:59:57]>> That means Christ has the keys as well.

[00:59:59]>> Right.

[00:59:59]>> So, it's not It's not It's not the slam dunk that people think it is.

[01:00:04]>> Yeah. Eliakim is not the king. He receives the keys from the king. Jesus is the king from Isaiah 22 and Peter is Eliakim from Isaiah 22. So, yes.

[01:00:13]They're Jesus' keys. Revelation, you go to the book of Revelation and Jesus is the one that has the keys, but the whole point is that he gives those keys to Peter.

[01:00:22]Jesus gives the keys that he has in Revelation to Peter. Peter has them on Earth cuz remember in Revelation, when we read about Jesus having the keys, he has those keys in heaven.

[01:00:33]But those keys that Jesus has in heaven, according to Revelation, Jesus gave them on Earth. Those keys are also found on Earth in the Saint Peter and in his successors. It's the same keys and those are the keys that he shares with the rest of the apostles.

[01:00:48]>> Yeah. Now, now, why are we going into all this? Why are we bringing up all of these examples? Why are we talking about certain objections? We're doing it because we as Catholics, we need to learn how to defend our faith. This is one of the things that I'm starting to feel more passionate about. So, many Catholics do not know how to defend the faith. And there are so many polemicists online that are attempting to bully the Catholics when the Catholic Church is the one true church that Christ established. So, the truth is on our side. We don't need to cower down. We have the truth.

[01:01:22]All of these accusations that are thrown against the Catholic Church are false and we can prove them incorrect.

[01:01:27]>> Yep.

[01:01:27]>> Um one of the things that people um man, I forgot which which objection I was going to bring up, but if you want to add to that while I think about it.

[01:01:34]>> Mhm.

[01:01:35]>> [clears throat] >> Yeah, Catholics Catholics don't need to be afraid of defending the faith. I I promise you everyone that's listening, whether you're Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, the Bible and history and even scholarship is on the side of the Catholic positions. Every The Catholic Church is vindicated every single time.

[01:01:53]>> Yeah.

[01:01:53]>> The Catholic teachings, the Catholic beliefs, the beliefs, the Catholic paradigms, the Catholic everything, the Catholic interpretations of scripture are vindicated every single time.

[01:02:05]>> Mhm.

[01:02:05]>> Every single time.

[01:02:06]>> I couldn't ignore it.

[01:02:07]>> Yeah.

[01:02:07]>> I couldn't ignore it. I was doing my research, everything, like the saying goes, you know, all roads lead to Rome.

[01:02:13]Everything kept leading back to Rome, the Pope, the papacy, St. Peter, >> Yep.

[01:02:18]>> Christ giving this commission and this confro- this conferring of authority, all of it led >> Yep.

[01:02:23]>> back to the Catholic claims.

[01:02:25]>> Right.

[01:02:25]>> And I want to make sure that people know how to defend their faith and this is what we we need to get back to instructing people in the proper talking points. So, the Eastern Orthodox >> Um >> they have a beautiful talking point, but I want I want to elaborate more on it and say how it actually applies to us.

[01:02:44]They say that they are the church that is unchanging, that has never changed.

[01:02:47]>> Mhm.

[01:02:48]>> [clears throat] >> As Catholics, we're actually the church that hasn't changed. Not one iota.

[01:02:52]>> Right.

[01:02:53]>> Not even one iota. The Catholic Church is the unchanging, timeless, eternal truth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[01:03:01]>> Amen.

[01:03:01]>> It has not changed one It has never compromised on a single teaching. Once I discovered this, once I saw that the the the the insurmountable evidence, biblically, apostolic, Church Fathers, Councils, Patristic witness, Church history, once I saw the damning evidence, I couldn't ignore it.

[01:03:20]>> Yeah.

[01:03:20]>> There is not a single teaching that has been disproven >> Amen.

[01:03:24]>> by the Catholic Church.

[01:03:25]>> What What You want to go to Immaculate Conception? You want to go Purgatory?

[01:03:27]You want to go Papal Supremacy? Papal Infallibility?

[01:03:30]>> All of it's there because this is the true faith. [snorts] It is timeless. It is unchanging. Now, you might say, "Well, look, they have guitars in their mass. They're They're They're clapping in the There's a clown over here."

[01:03:41]>> [laughter] >> Oh, there's a clowns everywhere, let me tell you.

[01:03:44]>> There is a clown.

[01:03:45]And the Pope can be a clown, too. That doesn't defeat the Catholic position.

[01:03:49]>> This is what I wanted to bring up.

[01:03:51]Whenever And again, and I love I love the Eastern Orthodox. I love Eastern Orthodoxy. I love Byzantine Christianity. I love the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I I love it. I love it.

[01:04:00]I love it. I I can't tell you enough how much I love it.

[01:04:04]When the Orthodox say, "We are the unchanging church," the thing that they're actually referring to isn't doctrine. They're not referring to doctrine.

[01:04:12]>> disciplines, practices.

[01:04:13]>> practices, >> Yeah.

[01:04:15]>> disciplines, and piety. But, here's the thing.

[01:04:18]Even that isn't true.

[01:04:20]>> Right.

[01:04:21]>> Because what they don't realize is that the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the the liturgy that you see like in any Eastern Orthodox church, the liturgy and the disciplines and the practices, they don't go back all the way to Chrysostom.

[01:04:33]The liturgy is based off of St. John Chrysostom, but for a thousand years, they were adding things to it. The liturgy as we know it today only goes back to the 14th century.

[01:04:44]Or the 15th century, actually.

[01:04:47]It It's not The liturgy of St. John Chrysostom that we have today is not the liturgy that St. John Chrysostom wrote.

[01:04:52]>> so much has developed, but >> It was added to for a thousand years.

[01:04:55]>> Which is not a bad thing. I I want to I want to emphasize that it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing.

[01:04:59]>> The point we're making is that the things that they are appealing to aren't matters of of doctrine. They're not matters of governance.

[01:05:07]They're not even matters of of of communion.

[01:05:10]But, even in those things, that not even either. They have changed. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[01:05:15]>> Right.

[01:05:15]>> Liturgy is supposed to change.

[01:05:17]Disciplines are supposed to change.

[01:05:19]>> To fit the needs of the people.

[01:05:20]>> needs of the people at the time.

[01:05:21]>> Because the church is a living body of Christ. It's supposed to meet the needs of the people.

[01:05:25]>> Absolutely.

[01:05:26]>> to have a mechanism in which it can address these things. It is not a museum. It is not uh uh uh a relic of the past.

[01:05:33]>> Right.

[01:05:33]>> And I'm not saying that against Orthodoxy, but I am saying that the Catholic Church definitely doesn't view itself this way.

[01:05:38]>> Yeah.

[01:05:38]>> It is a living church. It is a living uh body of Christ.

[01:05:42]>> Right.

[01:05:42]>> And Father Lauren Kleinwerk in his book, His Broken Body, he says, "One could argue that the Novus Ordo is actually closer to the Church of the the liturgy of the church."

[01:05:52]>> What I've always said. Yes.

[01:05:53]>> And and I never believed you when you said this.

[01:05:54]>> Yep.

[01:05:55]>> And until you know, we we take a look at a Chaldean mass. You know, you take a look at like the Assyrians. The Assyrians were the first to break away from >> Yeah.

[01:06:04]>> Church in the year 431.

[01:06:06]>> Yeah.

[01:06:07]>> And what you see there, you mean they've done a good job preserving what they have.

[01:06:10]>> Yeah.

[01:06:11]>> If you go visit an Assyrian church, you're going to see, "Wow, this feels like I'm in >> The Novus Ordo.

[01:06:15]>> I'm at the Novus Ordo, like I'm in Mexico or France."

[01:06:17]>> I always said it.

[01:06:18]>> And even when I visited a Syriac Orthodox Orthodox church, you know, if you go to the Oriental Orthodox, I was like, "Wow, this is like similar to the [clears throat] Obviously, my opinion, they're more reverent, you know. You go to Novus Ordo, there's a lot of >> Yeah.

[01:06:29]>> buffoonery going on.

[01:06:30]>> Shenanigans. Yeah.

[01:06:31]>> [laughter] >> A lot of shenanigans. I I'm willing to call a spade a spade, guys. I'm not defending the Catholic Church on everything.

[01:06:37]>> Right. Yeah.

[01:06:38]>> But, on the things that it that matter, >> Yeah.

[01:06:40]>> which is doctrine, which is what to believe, and you know, what what we need to do to be saved, the Catholic Church has has been unchanging in this.

[01:06:48]>> The Catholic Church is unchanged in the matters that cannot change. The Catholic Church can change in matters that are supposed to change for obvious reasons.

[01:06:57]It's backwards in Orthodoxy.

[01:06:59]Or in Eastern Orthodoxy needs to change in certain matters that it it doesn't change on. But, in the things that it need that need to stay the same, it has unfortunately they've changed.

[01:07:09]>> Yeah. They've changed in matters of doctrine.

[01:07:11]>> So the >> They've changed in a lot of things, actually.

[01:07:14]>> Yeah, I mean with the Catholic Church, the beauty of it and the genius of obviously our Lord >> Right.

[01:07:20]He established it.

[01:07:22]>> it. So the papacy is essential to the constitution of the church.

[01:07:25]>> Right.

[01:07:26]>> So there's a mechanism for addressing modern >> Right.

[01:07:29]>> issues. The Pope just released a encyclical on on artificial intelligence.

[01:07:34]>> Is an encyclical, correct?

[01:07:35]>> Right. Yeah.

[01:07:36]>> On artificial intelligence. It's able to address what the challenges of today are. This isn't something that you know, five centuries ago could have been addressed. It It's something that needs to be addressed today because the the threat of artificial intelligence is right at our feet and needs to be addressed by the hierarchy of the church.

[01:07:54]There's a mechanism in our church to be able to do that.

[01:07:57]Eastern Orthodox, I I don't see that I don't see that there.

[01:08:01]But I do want to give them their flowers. There's so much that we can learn from them.

[01:08:05]>> Right.

[01:08:05]>> They're they're they're even even just their instinct to want to preserve tradition cuz you you go and and they they are very hesitant on adding anything new.

[01:08:13]>> yeah.

[01:08:13]>> So I think that I think that's a plus. I think that's a plus. At least my me personally, I really really love >> Yeah.

[01:08:19]>> how they've preserved and maintained the the beauty and the essence of the divine liturgy.

[01:08:23]>> Yeah.

[01:08:25]>> But for me it I I hit a wall. I hit a wall. And that wall is is when you get to the doctrinal level you see it fully manifested in the Catholic Church. And one of the accusations that people make against the Catholic Church when they're observing maybe the Oriental Orthodox or the Eastern Orthodox, they say, "Oh, those are the conciliar churches. Those are the synodal churches."

[01:08:47]I want to push back on that. The Roman the Catholic Church is the synodal church, the conciliar church. In fact, we've had 21 ecumenical councils. We can hold councils and our councils are binding. No one would doubt, not even an Eastern Orthodox critic, no one would doubt that the what is presented as dogma is not held by the universal church. They know the Immaculate Conception is If you're a Catholic, you have to hold to the Immaculate Conception and Purgatory and all these teachings.

[01:09:15]Papal supremacy, papal infallibility.

[01:09:16]And if you don't, you're dissenting. So, you have groups that they left at Vatican I. There are groups that left at Vatican I because they didn't think that the teachings of the papal claims were consonant with the early church, which they were wrong. And where are they today? Uh and then you look at Vatican II, people dissented from that one as well. And now we're seeing issues that are taking place.

[01:09:38]>> But the whole point is that you can identify You can actually identify the Catholic Church. You can identify the Catholic communion. You can identify the teachings of the Catholic Church.

[01:09:48]You know what is taught by the Catholic Church. You can't say the same for Eastern Orthodoxy because in Eastern Orthodoxy, you don't And this is what I've always said from the very beginning. You can't You There's no way to identify the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[01:10:01]I've asked Orthodox For me to know that I'm in the Eastern Orthodox Church, who do I need to be in communion with?

[01:10:10]They can't answer that question.

[01:10:12]For me to know that I'm holding on to the fullness of the apostolic deposit of faith, who is the one that is that is that has preserved it, that is teaching it to me?

[01:10:20]Because in Eastern Orthodoxy, you guys don't agree on a lot of things. There's a lot of things that you guys disagree on.

[01:10:26]How do I know who's right and who's wrong? Who do I need to be in communion with to know that I'm that I'm safeguarded from these things?

[01:10:33]>> That that was a That was a big issue for me. And I deeply love and respect the Orthodox. And I I I I can't say enough good things about the Orthodox. And I want to make sure that I'm not trying to dunk on them.

[01:10:43]But the issue on the reception of converts >> Let me just say we have the same problems, too. The problems that the the Eastern Orthodox Church has, we have the the Catholic Church has all those same problems, and maybe even more.

[01:10:54]The only difference is that we know where to identify who's right and who's wrong. So, I'm not saying that we don't have the same problems. Absolutely, the Catholic Church has the same problems. We have schismatics, we have heretics, we have but we can differentiate between the Orthodox Catholics and the heretical Catholics or the schismatic Catholics.

[01:11:12]In the Eastern Orthodox Church, all I'm asking, I just want to know how do I differentiate how do I know where do I where I actually find who who the where the true church is.

[01:11:22]How do I differentiate between the the heretics in the in the in the Orthodox and the schismatics in the in the Orthodox? How do I differentiate?

[01:11:29]>> Right.

[01:11:30]>> Is it the Greeks or the Russians?

[01:11:32]They can't tell me. They they can't tell me.

[01:11:34]>> Mhm.

[01:11:35]It ends up becoming circular.

[01:11:36]>> Right.

[01:11:37]>> You can identify who is the true church by their Orthodoxy.

[01:11:40]>> Right.

[01:11:40]>> So, it's like, okay, well, how do I identify what's Orthodox?

[01:11:43]>> Yeah.

[01:11:43]>> Um and they have various ways of doing that, but it all ultimately ends up being circular. But yeah, I want to emphasize that I didn't reject becoming Orthodox on the basis of something bad that I saw there. It was more so I think the strength of the Catholic Church >> Yeah.

[01:12:01]>> was too much for me to ignore.

[01:12:03]>> Right.

[01:12:04]>> It was the positive case that was being presented from the Ortho- from the Catholic position that made me say, I I can't leave the Catholic Church.

[01:12:12]But the Orthodox Church, certainly they they they they have so much that we can learn from.

[01:12:16]>> Yeah.

[01:12:17]>> Um but but they have certain challenges.

[01:12:19]Certain challenges that we don't have.

[01:12:21]Like, for example, the reception of converts. That was a big one for me.

[01:12:25]You know, this idea that there there first of all, there is a there are many ways to look at the reception of converts in the Orthodox Church. There are some that believe that everybody, no matter what, you know, they take the Cyprianic view where they say, "Doesn't matter what your background is, how close or how far you are from our church, you must be received by baptism.

[01:12:46]There is no baptism outside the Orthodox Church." Some hold that view. Now, there are others that say, "Well, if you were baptized in the proper Trinitarian formula, if there was triple immersion, we're going to give some grace here and say, let's receive you through chrismation and that'll activate the sacramental grace in your in your previous baptism." Or to something or a variation of that effect.

[01:13:07]I I've heard two different versions of that. But, this idea that we And and then there's also some that receive people on the basis of confession.

[01:13:16]You were a Roman Catholic or an Oriental Orthodox, we're going to receive you on the basis of confession alone because we recognize that you have sacraments already.

[01:13:25]>> Yep.

[01:13:25]>> This is one of a more minority view. This is a more minority view. And then you have certain practices like the Russians who do something called vesting where if they receive a priest from the Catholic Church, they'll simply vest him and now he's an Orthodox priest.

[01:13:41]>> Right.

[01:13:41]>> So, there's some type of recognition that there is a sacramental value in the prior tradition.

[01:13:47]This was for me it was hard to reconcile. I'm like, this Yeah. It's kind of hard. Like, how can some people say that my baptism it has no grace and that I'm not actually baptized and that and that my soul is at stake and now I need to go get baptized while some don't hold that view.

[01:14:03]This, from my research, has already been handled and this was handled in the 3rd century >> Yes.

[01:14:08]>> by the great Pope Saint Stephen of Rome >> Good.

[01:14:10]>> in his, you know, skirmish with the uh with Cyprian.

[01:14:14]>> With Cyprian.

[01:14:14]>> [laughter] >> And Firmilian, you know, so >> Yeah.

[01:14:17]>> this idea and we know from history that Saint Cyprian and his view didn't prevail.

[01:14:21]>> Right.

[01:14:21]>> It's Pope Saint Stephen of Rome.

[01:14:23]>> His view was prevailed.

[01:14:24]>> His view was Orthodox.

[01:14:25]>> Right.

[01:14:26]>> Saint Cyprian's view that everyone, doesn't matter where you're coming from, you need to be baptized, that was not accepted by the early church. Now, let me say this, even just a few centuries later, you have Saint Fulgentius of Ruspe, you know, modern-day Tunisia, which is also North Africa.

[01:14:40]>> Right.

[01:14:41]>> Saint Cyprian was in North Africa.

[01:14:44]He thought it was almost inconceivable that somebody would want to rebaptize somebody >> Right.

[01:14:49]>> coming from a heterodox confession. He thought this was like how could you even >> Yeah.

[01:14:54]>> think this? So, we have evidence that his view did not prevail.

[01:14:58]>> Right.

[01:14:58]>> And our church, the Council of Trent, uh anathematizes anybody who believes this.

[01:15:04]>> Right.

[01:15:04]>> So, we don't hold this view. We >> Right.

[01:15:08]>> We hold the view that if there is proper Trinitarian formula, there's proper matter, and if there's proper intent.

[01:15:15]>> Right.

[01:15:15]>> That this that the baptism could be received valid, yes. Yes.

[01:15:20]>> Yeah. The issue my biggest issue with the with the Eastern Orthodox is that their sacramental uh their sacramental theology is is a mess.

[01:15:28]With all due respect to them, their sacramental theology is a mess. They don't They don't even know how to identify a sacrament.

[01:15:34]They don't know how to identify a sacrament.

[01:15:37]And and here and here's This is actually a perfect example of how Eastern Orthodoxy has changed and changed for the worse.

[01:15:45]Because as you've mentioned as you mentioned, this was already settled in the 4th century.

[01:15:50]By the 4th century, this was a done deal. This was settled. There is no reason there is no reason for this to be an issue in Eastern Orthodoxy because this was settled before the schism.

[01:16:01]But now in Eastern Orthodoxy, they are now going back. They're actually um uh they're reverting to something that that was already settled. There's no reason for them to be fighting over this anymore.

[01:16:16]In the 4th century, it was settled. Why is it they can't agree with each other?

[01:16:19]The bishops can't agree with each other over who is baptized and who isn't baptized or how to receive converts.

[01:16:25]That shouldn't be an issue.

[01:16:27]They've >> changed.

[01:16:28]>> I know they're going to appeal to St. Basil the Great because he has, you know, uh canon on how to receive converts from heterodox >> That canon is not on their side. Does not help them.

[01:16:38]>> Well, certainly it is not Cyprianic. Cuz St. Basil was very careful, okay, these people receive this way, these people receive this way. You know, you also have the Council of Trullo in the 7th century, I believe, that has a specific canon, I think it's canon 92, if I'm not mistaken, where it's talking about how people that are heretics and heterodox, even heretics >> have valid baptisms.

[01:16:58]>> Yeah, they're and and and they're very careful. It's like, these people receive this way, these people receive this way.

[01:17:04]It's not No one is taking the Cyprianic view. No one is taking the Cyprianic view.

[01:17:08]So, if they want to appeal to the saints, I mean, I think we're seeing a revival of the Cyprianic view. Many modern saints of their on their side, they want to bring that back, and even some >> Something that was already condemned.

[01:17:20]>> Yeah, some voices on their side are are are very emphatic and adamant about this position.

[01:17:27]>> And those those voices are they're going against what was always believed from the 4th century onward.

[01:17:34]>> Or even today, they're going against bishops in the Eastern Orthodox communion. They're going against their own bishops that they claim to be in communion with.

[01:17:42]You you can't do it. You can't do it.

[01:17:44]>> Yeah, so that that was what And I'm just, guys, I'm just speaking about my personal experience. Like, if you're Orthodox, praise God, you're in a in a you're in a good place. Like, I I really wished I could have became Orthodox.

[01:17:54]Like, the the living identity, I think what Orthodox get right is that I think that the identity of being an Orthodox Christian is is stronger than the identity of being a Catholic Christian. Uh that's just my opinion. You know, when some when when I meet somebody who's Orthodox, they're just very >> You can tell they're Orthodox. They're more Yeah.

[01:18:13]>> they they're very conscious of the fact that they're Orthodox. The way they speak about their faith, the way It's like, wow, like, this is really powerful. There's there's meaning to this.

[01:18:22]Catholics are just kind of like, ah, like, they're a lot of they're just kind of like the average Joe, sometimes.

[01:18:26]>> Yeah. But, that's just at the at the That's just a personal anecdote of that.

[01:18:30]>> And that's just my subjective, you know, >> [snorts] >> somebody might disagree with me.

[01:18:34]Um but, I just wanted to emphasize that I think their identity is is very >> It's It's interesting. They have an identity that they can't identify.

[01:18:43]That's the whole point. E- Even if if if particular Eastern Orthodox Christians have this strong identity, they can't identify it because they don't know how to identify the Orthodox Church.

[01:18:53]I They don't How do you identify because again, everything that we just went through, the papacy. The whole purpose of Christ giving us the papacy is so that we can identify the universal church.

[01:19:03]>> Mhm.

[01:19:03]>> It's the pillar of the unity.

[01:19:06]It's the way that you know that you're part of Christ's Church is by being in communion with the with with this institution that he gave us. You can identify the universal church and therefore identify the true apostolic deposit of faith.

[01:19:19]It's a marker. It's a visible marker.

[01:19:21]Christ saying, "Here you go. This is how you know that you're part of my church."

[01:19:23]It's a visible.

[01:19:26]With the Eastern With Eastern Orthodoxy, they don't have a visible pillar marker of unity.

[01:19:31]Do I need to be in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?

[01:19:34]Is that how I know that I'm part of truly part of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

[01:19:38]Because you have the true Orthodox who say, "No, he's a heretic. He's a schismatic."

[01:19:44]And the true Orthodox say that all of the sacraments in the in the Eastern Orthodox Church are invalid. That none of them have true sacraments.

[01:19:51]That the only true sacraments can be found in the true Orthodox Church.

[01:19:57]How do I know?

[01:19:58]How do I know who's right and who's wrong? I need to be able to identify the true church. In Eastern Orthodoxy, they they don't have a marker of identification.

[01:20:06]We do and that's the papacy. They don't.

[01:20:09]>> You know, you brought up the true Orthodox Church. There various schismatic or breakaway groups from the main body, the canonical what we call World Orthodox Church.

[01:20:19]This was also something that I struggled with because in my journey, of course, I wanted to default to research, history, facts, councils.

[01:20:27]And many times, I think the intent was good, but many times I was advised by priests and loved ones that, you know, this this approach that I'm taking is very just rational and scholastic and and it's western and it's intellectual.

[01:20:41]You're trying to grasp the faith. That's not what I was doing. I mean, it's very clear that there is because I can ask this. I can bring this up.

[01:20:49]Because because a lot of them were were just saying like, you know, just just embrace the faith, the liturgy, just let it take you away. It's like, well, I have to put a pause on that because suppose I walked into a true Orthodox church >> Right.

[01:21:01]>> and I let the divine liturgy just blow me away and and just the experience and the cuz they have all the same books as you. They have the same saints. They have the same councils. They have the same, you know, uh divine liturgy.

[01:21:14]They have the same structure. So, >> And you know who else does too? The Eastern Catholics. So, what you could tell them you goes, "Okay, what if I go to my local Byzantine Catholic church?"

[01:21:22]Also uses the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. What if I embrace the liturgy there?

[01:21:27]What's the difference?

[01:21:28]>> is the point that I wanted to bring up.

[01:21:30]Cuz then they would go, "Well, well, you have to look at the research. You have to do the history. You have to do the" >> I'm like, >> guys, like that's exactly what I'm doing, but now you're telling me not to do that.

[01:21:38]>> Exactly. It's inconsistent. Yeah.

[01:21:40]>> The intent was good. I could It was very pastoral. I could I could tell it was coming from a loving place, but it was not practical and they and it was dismissive. It was dismissive as if as if the research doesn't matter almost. So, I that was one of the things I wrestled with, but I want to emphasize I think it was coming from a loving place. I I could tell it was pastoral and the people saying this, they just they really just wanted me to kind of maybe uh overcome my my obstacles, but it At least from my perspective, I was like, it doesn't add up cuz you're >> Yeah.

[01:22:08]>> telling me one thing, but but you're actually doing it yourself, you know?

[01:22:11]>> You can't sac- you can't uh compromise truth uh like uh empirically verifiable truth with uh with um personal experience. They both We to confirm each other.

[01:22:26]>> Yeah. You you can't have one without the other.

[01:22:28]>> Right.

[01:22:29]>> have the greatest experience that you did. You had the best experience in Eastern Orthodoxy, but if it doesn't align with what you can verify just, you know, you know, uh empirically, it it it doesn't work. It's not enough.

[01:22:43]It's not enough.

[01:22:44]>> Yeah, so just uh I guess put a capstone on this video.

[01:22:48]>> Yeah.

[01:22:48]>> Um my experience was absolutely positive. I can say very confidently that I had not had a single negative experience, not one.

[01:22:58]>> Praise God.

[01:22:59]>> Throughout this whole journey.

[01:23:00]>> Right.

[01:23:01]>> Going to the churches, visiting with priests. All of them have been so gracious to me. They've opened their their doors to me. The churches some have opened their doors to me to their homes. I've spent time with them.

[01:23:11]Um it's been nothing but love and and and graciousness.

[01:23:15]Now, even at the local level at the with the lay people, I've not had a single negative interaction. No one has ever came up to me and said, "I don't like you. I don't like what you're doing. I think you're a grifter. I think you're a fake. I think you're a snake, a fraud."

[01:23:27]It's never happened. Um but I I want you know, I was on the phone with you the other day.

[01:23:33]I brought up how look how I I I started this project 3 years ago as a labor of love to give glory to God, to share with the Western world what I found in the Orthodoxy. And it's glory to God, it has helped so many people. It has helped arguably thousands of people.

[01:23:52]And with all these accusations and these false lies that people made about me, >> Yeah.

[01:23:58]>> I saw a comment the other day, a a man somebody physically threatened me. And he said like, "If I see you I'm you know this."

[01:24:05]And he you know what he said? He justified it by saying, "Well, Christ whipped the money changers out of the temple. So, therefore I can justify violence towards you."

[01:24:11]>> Lord have mercy.

[01:24:12]>> And I'm like, "Look at how this transformed." Like a labor of love helping the Orthodox giving myself, sacrificing myself, sacrificing my family.

[01:24:26]This self-giving, I I didn't get anything from it. I want to emphasize that.

[01:24:29]>> Yeah.

[01:24:30]>> And it's transformed 3 years later. I'm I'm hated. I'm I'm the worst. I'm the snake. I'm the fraud. I'm a I'm a grifter. And now I want to, you know, enact an an act of violence towards you, commit an act of violence towards you.

[01:24:41]I'm like, that's crazy. That that's insane.

[01:24:46]You, you know, Emmanuel, our friend who's a Syrian, he brought up this point. He's like, "Brother, if you came to our church and you >> did for them what you they would >> we would be like, you're the man."

[01:24:56]>> you honorary, yeah.

[01:24:58]>> Yeah, that's right.

[01:24:59]>> They would give you communion.

[01:25:01]>> [laughter] >> They would give me communion.

[01:25:03]>> That's what I like.

[01:25:04]>> So, I I look at that. I'm like, "Guys, remember what we're here for. What are we doing here? This is the God This is a a We're in the space of of God, of of religion, of helping people find salvation.

[01:25:17]>> lot of people out there who have lost the plot.

[01:25:19]>> Don't lose the plot.

[01:25:20]>> They've taken their eye off the ball.

[01:25:21]>> You've taken your eye off the ball so much if this is your posture, if this is your disposition.

[01:25:26]>> Yeah.

[01:25:27]>> I'm sorry, but you're not living the Orthodox faith. Your church does not teach you to be this way.

[01:25:33]>> Right.

[01:25:33]>> Your priest doesn't teach you to be this way.

[01:25:36]This is not the Orthodox faith. This is not Christianity, and this is not the gospel. It's not the gospel. Like, the gospel teaches us how to be. So, this is You're going against the Orthodox Church, and you're going against the gospel.

[01:25:49]But unfortunately, this Orthobro phenomena that has taken place, it has become an ideology. It has become a way to weaponize a newly found faith because this phenomenon is actually rooted in a convert um attitude.

[01:26:05]>> Yeah.

[01:26:05]>> What is the common denominator amongst all these people? They were all formerly Protestant.

[01:26:09]>> Right.

[01:26:09]>> So, if you have this disposition, it's like, I can retain my anti-Roman bias, and I get to have everything the Catholics have without acknowledging them.

[01:26:18]>> Right.

[01:26:19]>> I can have all the sacraments, I can have the priesthood, I can have the everything that is good about Catholicism, I can have it without the Roman >> Yeah.

[01:26:27]>> pontiff. Like >> Right.

[01:26:28]>> I can still hate the Catholic Church and be a comfortable Orthodox Christian.

[01:26:32]>> Right.

[01:26:33]>> And I might not even be called to change. I mean, there's >> Right.

[01:26:35]>> There are people online who have these public conversions from Protestantism to Orthodoxy.

[01:26:42]And I look at that and and I say, "Praise God." But then I see him like, "Well, actually nothing changed about you. You You're supposed to change when you become Catholic and Orthodox. Like your interior disposition, like Christ says, "You will know them by their fruits." So, why hasn't Why haven't your fruits changed? You be You were Protestant, you were very anti-uh church, you were very anti-sacraments, and you were just, you know, full of hatred.

[01:27:04]>> Yeah.

[01:27:05]>> And you you you conveyed that hatred into a new faith without leaving it.

[01:27:10]>> Yeah.

[01:27:10]>> It's just been molded into something else. And now you can try and beat your friends and family over the head with it. It's like you're you're Protestant, you become Orthodox, and now you turn around at your friends and family and you say, "Look at me, I'm better than you.

[01:27:22]>> Yeah.

[01:27:23]>> I'm superior to you. You guys need to become Orthodox."

[01:27:26]There's That's when this is not That's when this transcends a love for Christ and this becomes ideology.

[01:27:34]>> Right. Yeah.

[01:27:35]>> It is not rooted in a pure and love for Christ. It is rooted in something Like I go back to saying that this is really a spiritual malady. It's a spiritual inf- infirmity. If you carry this disposition. And unfortunately, I'm starting to see priests even priests kind of bend their knee to this to this attitude. Um it it it's a real I I want to say this, you know, recently I don't get on Twitter, but sometimes I I take a look at what's going on.

[01:28:01]There was an incident where an ortho bro girl, I want to say ortho bro girl, um she was recently outed.

[01:28:09]>> An ortho gal. Yeah.

[01:28:10]>> I don't [laughter] know.

[01:28:12]>> She was recently outed.

[01:28:13]>> Yeah.

[01:28:14]>> By her own community.

[01:28:15]>> Yeah.

[01:28:16]>> There were some explicit images of her leaked on Twitter.

[01:28:20]And the Orthodox polemicists, the OrthoBros, I won't call them Orthodox.

[01:28:27]They vilified this woman completely. She was bullied off the platform.

[01:28:34]She was shown no grace.

[01:28:36]The exact story that you read in the Gospel in regards to the woman caught in adultery.

[01:28:41]>> Yeah.

[01:28:42]>> That exact scenario took place on Twitter. Just recently.

[01:28:47]She was vilified. The OrthoBros gathered around her like Pharisees. Stone her.

[01:28:52]Stone her. Stone her.

[01:28:54]If anybody were to even utter what Christ said, let he without sin cast the first stone. You're a piety signaler.

[01:29:00]You're you're you're We don't want to hear that. You're a piety signaler.

[01:29:03]Like, let's stone her. Who cares? She's a She's she's this. She's that.

[01:29:07]Let's We don't care. Like this posture. I'm like, this is what is the OrthoBro phenomena. I saw a priest in my comment section. A priest that I love that I've worked with in the past.

[01:29:18]He was defending the OrthoBros and he says that the OrthoBro he called it a straw man.

[01:29:24]I'm like, Father, like maybe you're not online as much as I am.

[01:29:28]So, I'm going to give you some grace and some charity here.

[01:29:30]>> Yeah.

[01:29:31]>> But this is a real phenomenon and it needs to be cracked down on. And fortunately, I see there are bishops and metropolitans that are actually standing in line here and they're saying this is not okay. So, I want to emphasize that this is a problem and this isn't a a um a straw man. This is a real thing that is happening.

[01:29:52]And you know, this poor girl, you know, God bless her. I I I pray she doesn't leave the Orthodox Church because of this.

[01:29:58]>> I'll pray for her. Yeah.

[01:29:59]>> I pray she doesn't leave the the Christian faith because of this, you know.

[01:30:03]And um >> Lord have mercy.

[01:30:05]>> I know she's had I I think if I'm not mistaken, she's had some some words of critique about us. She's she's criticized us in the past, but that's no excuse to treat this woman this way.

[01:30:16]Like, this is not Orthodoxy. This is not Christianity. And we need to really examine ourselves, listen to the priests, listen to the saints, listen to the the church. This is not what we're called to do. We're called >> Listen closely when you pray the Our Father. It's in the Our Father.

[01:30:34]Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

[01:30:39]>> Yeah.

[01:30:40]>> Look, whether you're Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, [clears throat] whatever, if you don't have grace and mercy on your fellow man, on your brothers and sisters, whether you're Catholic, Orthodox, whatever, God will not have mercy on you.

[01:30:55]>> You will be judged by the measure that you judge others. Like, I don't know why we just decided to like we just don't read this anymore. Like, this is literally >> all in the Gospel.

[01:31:05]>> you.

[01:31:06]>> And And even in the Church Fathers, like, we have this beautiful story of repentance with Saint Mary of Egypt, who Would you have shown grace to Saint Mary of Egypt? Like, these people, if they even go to church at all, >> This poor girl, this poor And I And I didn't know about this. This is the first time that I've I had no idea that this happened. I don't even know who you're talking about. I don't know who this is. Whoever this girl is, she could be the next Saint Mary of Egypt.

[01:31:28]>> Yeah.

[01:31:29]>> She could be. That could be Saint Mary of Egypt right there. And look at how you treat her.

[01:31:33]Look at how you treat her.

[01:31:35]>> So, never ask, "Would I have done this to Saint Mary of Egypt or the woman taken in adultery?" Because you did do it.

[01:31:40]>> You did do it.

[01:31:41]>> ask. Like, you you did it.

[01:31:42]>> Lord have mercy.

[01:31:43]>> it.

[01:31:43]>> Lord have mercy.

[01:31:45]>> So, it's um it's a wake-up call, you know.

[01:31:48]If these people even go to church at all, when you get to that point throughout Great Lent, when you're celebrating the life of Saint Mary of Egypt, don't >> Yeah.

[01:31:58]>> ignore it. Don't like say, "Well, this doesn't apply to us anymore. That happened a long time ago. Like, I I can treat this woman like a >> Like, Like like you know, Christ tells us to call out sin. I'm calling out sin. I'm I'm I'm actually the hero.

[01:32:10]No, this is this is this is demonic. It really is demonic. And and thankfully, people ask me, they're like, of course you didn't become Orthodox.

[01:32:18]Look how they treated you. Look how these No, that that didn't >> No, that's not that's not Orthodox.

[01:32:22]>> That's not Orthodox. That didn't play a factor in my in my in my decision.

[01:32:25]>> I have had nothing but positive experiences at Eastern Orthodox parishes church. The priests that I've ever met that I've that I've that I've met in in Orthodoxy, I will always kiss the hand of an Eastern Orthodox priest, always, because he's a priest of Jesus Christ. I love I love the Eastern Orthodox clergy. I'll tell you a great story. Um and I I think I mentioned this to you on the phone the other day, too. Um I was out and about the other day and there was an Eastern Orthodox guy that came up to me.

[01:32:52]And he was like, "Hey." He told me, he said, "Aren't you Roads to Orthodoxy?"

[01:32:56]And I was like, "No, that's not me.

[01:32:57]That's my partner, Jonathan." He goes, "Oh, okay." He goes, "I love what you guys are doing." And he told me, he said, "You guys are Catholic, huh?" I'm like, "Yeah, we're we're both Catholic."

[01:33:05]And he goes, "I see all the hate that Jonathan is getting online. Tell him to just keep going. Tell him that I love his stuff.

[01:33:13]His videos have helped so many people, people that I know personally have helped It have have had They've helped me. They've helped so many people that I know. Tell him to keep going. Tell him that he's the man. If he's not Orthodox, he's Catholic, okay, but his work is still great."

[01:33:26]Nektarios. Shout out to Nektarios.

[01:33:27]That's what his name is. And look, we're we're talking about Saint Nektarios earlier. That was I I believe that that was a little grace that God gave us to know, okay, we're we're we did the right thing. You did the right thing.

[01:33:40]So, I don't regret it at all.

[01:33:42]>> Yeah.

[01:33:42]>> Throughout this whole journey, I have zero regrets.

[01:33:44]>> And and the people that I've always met in person, Eastern Orthodox people that I've always met in person, >> the same.

[01:33:49]>> It's always love, man. It's always love.

[01:33:52]>> It's funny. I was at uh Father Josiah's church, St. Andrew's in Riverside, and I was at the Divine Liturgy, and some guy I'm just standing there by myself. I don't I I'll I'm always like in the back. Like I don't really like like to go in the front. I feel like it's not my place, but some guy leans into me. Like like leans into my ear, and he's like he's like, "Hey, I just want to let you know like all that stuff they say about you on the internet." He's like, "Don't listen to them."

[01:34:14]He's like, "We love you."

[01:34:14]>> That's funny.

[01:34:15]>> So I was like I was like, "Cool, man."

[01:34:16]Like that's I thought that was really cool. Like But that's the experience in real life.

[01:34:19]>> Yeah.

[01:34:20]>> You know, all this stuff about I want to fight you and all that. That's not real.

[01:34:23]That's not real. And if you do want to fight me like let me know. Like let's I'm just kidding.

[01:34:27]>> [laughter] >> No, but no, it's it's it's all love.

[01:34:31]It's all it's all love, and it's always going to be love. Anytime they want me to bat for them, I will. If they say step up to the plate and bat for us, I will. If they if if a priest tells me, you know, jump, skip, and hop, like I'll be like say less.

[01:34:42]>> And me too, by the way. Me too, by the way. And I think that there's Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox priests that they know like I always >> They don't even have to ask. Just tell us.

[01:34:50]>> You guys Yeah, just tell >> Yeah, just tell us.

[01:34:52]>> I want the Eastern Orthodox watching this to know we're in your corner.

[01:34:55]You guys have us as allies.

[01:34:57]Yes, there are issues, there are reasons that we in good faith and good conscience could never be Eastern Orthodox.

[01:35:03]But we we we have your backs because you guys are a net positive for the world.

[01:35:07]Because again, Eastern Orthodoxy is not false.

[01:35:10]It's just missing a few things that we have in the Catholic Church.

[01:35:15]And another thing that I want to bring up, too, is that everything in in Eastern Orthodoxy that is good, true, and beautiful, even the rites, all of those things you have in the Catholic Church as well. Our goal, our ultimate goal, is not for all of the Eastern Orthodox to just become Catholic. Our goal is for the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church to be united, to be in communion again.

[01:35:40]You guys don't have to abandon anything.

[01:35:41]You guys don't have to to don't have to abandon anything that isn't good, true, or beautiful. You get to keep all of it, and you get to have everything that maybe was missing by coming by us coming back into communion with each other.

[01:35:54]That's all it is.

[01:35:55]>> I I want to say this on record. Like I know that's that's your message, but I want to say this on record cuz that's what I've always been accused of >> Yeah.

[01:36:02]>> is you know, Rules of Orthodoxy was the CIA government psyop in order to have, you know, subvert the Orthodox so that they can come back and become Catholic and, you know, submit their will to the Pope.

[01:36:15]That is even to this day, like you know, I know my Catholic disposition should be that >> Right.

[01:36:21]>> everyone become Catholic, but like I I respect them where they are. I respect them where they are.

[01:36:26]>> Yeah.

[01:36:26]>> And yeah, of course we pray for unity.

[01:36:28]>> Yeah.

[01:36:28]>> We pray for unity, but there's no None of my efforts have ever been like, I'm going to interview so-and-so because I know they're going to say something that's going to align with the Catholic faith.

[01:36:37]You know, as we've already established that that wasn't true. And if you look at my channel, none of [snorts] it's ever been true.

[01:36:42]>> Right.

[01:36:42]>> Um And I I appreciate certain aspects like the Western Rite Orthodox Church. I mean, you've been around it. Like >> Father John Fenton, you know, >> Right.

[01:36:50]>> you've interviewed Father Peter Kavanaugh.

[01:36:52]The Western Rite Church makes me appreciate the Catholic Church more. It really does. What they're doing there is is uh is special and it's uh >> Right.

[01:36:59]>> it shouldn't be looked down upon by their own communion.

[01:37:02]>> Right.

[01:37:03]>> Um But yeah, there there's so much I I just want to end this with giving props to the Orthodox, giving them their flowers, giving them their love. They've shown me so much love.

[01:37:13]>> Yeah.

[01:37:13]>> It's been nothing but joy for me to be a part of this as a as a guest. Uh the whole time I was a guest.

[01:37:20]So, yeah, I'm I'm riding off into the sunset. I'm going to put Rules of Orthodoxy uh on the side, you know.

[01:37:27]>> Yeah.

[01:37:27]>> People People asking me and I I I do have to address this. People are like, "You said in a video you would give away the channel." Yeah, I did say that, but I'm an adult and I can change my mind.

[01:37:35]>> Right. Yeah.

[01:37:35]>> So, this is what I built by the grace of God and I'm going to keep it. I'm going to let it sit. It's not going to be my focus, but certainly if anybody wants to be featured on it, if anyone wants to they have a book they're promoting or a course or um a movie that's coming out. Of course, the the platform is there and it's there to help people. Uh >> And and you have a good reason for cuz I and I don't know if you remember again, I don't I'm not the type to say I told you so or I you know or gloat, but even back then I told you I was like, you need to keep Roots of Orthodoxy.

[01:38:03]Remember I said, you know, keep it. You need to keep it.

[01:38:06]And you have a good reason for for deciding to keep it. And that reason is that, you know, we have a very good reason to believe that it it could fall into the wrong hands and that it would be used to undermine you and to undermine the that it would become it it it could become a polemical channel.

[01:38:23]>> It can be, yeah. It can I I think maybe if it goes into the wrong hands.

[01:38:28]>> Yeah.

[01:38:29]>> I wouldn't trust it to people that I that I know wouldn't be like that, but who knows like it could transform into something like you never know who can betray you. Like that's one thing I learned as well is like there have that you you just never know. You just never know. That this could be I I just rather err on the side of caution. I did what I set out to do. My mission was to share Orthodoxy with the Western world and by the grace of God that was accomplished.

[01:38:56]And [clears throat] I I want to let people know is that it it wasn't just Roots of Orthodoxy that I used to help the Orthodox. Behind the scenes, I mean, the priests know.

[01:39:05]I help I've helped them build their own channels. I've helped other channels directly. I've done consultations. I've I've done it all for free.

[01:39:13]>> Right.

[01:39:13]>> And I've also helped by inspiring other people. You can look on YouTube right now how many channels look identical to mine or at least they grab even even the channels that hate me. If you look at their content >> They copy you.

[01:39:24]>> it's exactly bar for bar, but of [clears throat] course, that doesn't matter. I didn't do this for recognition. I don't want anybody to say, yeah, yeah, he stole this from Roots of Orthodoxy. He stole this from It doesn't matter cuz it's not about me.

[01:39:33]It never was about me.

[01:39:35]I'm not on the channel. It's always been about the priests.

[01:39:38]And yeah, that's uh that's why I'm keeping it. Keeping it.

[01:39:44]And yeah, it's just going to sit there.

[01:39:48]Still going to have Roots of Faith cuz that's always just been a Christian podcast to do conversations like these, but I'm moving into my apologetics phase where I do want to empower Catholics to learn their faith and to be able to defend it. There's so many There's so much bullying that we've tolerated because no one wants to step up to the plate. So, I want to teach Catholics how to defend their faith. And yeah, you know, just just play it by ear and see where where God takes it.

[01:40:14]>> Thank God.

[01:40:16]Well, brother, it's been quite the journey that you've been on.

[01:40:21]I'm very happy, very honored that I was able to at least just sit back and and watch you go on the journey.

[01:40:27]And to to be able to see you come to the to the conclusion that you came to because I think that you are now a very huge voice, a powerful voice because your testimony that you have now.

[01:40:41]As someone who wanted Eastern Orthodoxy to be to be true, to be the fullness of the truth, you wanted it so bad.

[01:40:49]And um I think that when people see that you didn't compromise on truth because of what you you felt or desired, I think that's going to help a lot of people. I really firmly believe that ultimately what the good that can come out of this is the reunification of Eastern Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church.

[01:41:13]Because again, there's good news here.

[01:41:16]The good news is that the Eastern Orthodox don't have to get rid of anything.

[01:41:20]They don't have to get rid of anything.

[01:41:21]They can keep everything that they have.

[01:41:23]>> And this is what the Catholic Church has called with the Orientale Lumen and like >> Yes. You don't have to get rid of anything.

[01:41:28]>> local veneration of the saints that they have.

[01:41:31]>> You get to keep all of it. But now you get you get to have everything that you actually did have in the first millennium that you did have, you get to get it back. You get to take it back.

[01:41:42]And those things that you take back they actually fill your blind spots and now you're not going to run into any of the errors that maybe you've run into.

[01:41:51]So, it's nothing but good news for everybody. Like there's literally no downside. There is no downside whatsoever with the Eastern Orthodox Church coming back into full communion with the Catholic Church.

[01:42:01]There's no downside at all.

[01:42:04]You get to keep everything.

[01:42:07]And you get to now be united to the universal church.

[01:42:09]>> Yeah.

[01:42:10]>> So >> Oh, cool, man. It was an honor. I appreciate you interviewing me and >> For your own channel.

[01:42:15]>> Yeah. And thank you for being along this journey the whole time and being patient with me, you know.

[01:42:19]>> Hey, brother.

[01:42:20]>> I know you probably wanted to intervene a few times and be like, this is so wrong, but like now I appreciate you letting me figure it out for myself as you did in the beginning when I was discerning if Christianity is even true.

[01:42:33]You let me figure it out. Like Yes, you did have some feedback and stuff along the way, but you let me figure it out for myself. [clears throat] And by the grace of God, I remain Christian to this day and I'm very happy Catholic and I want to help other people in that in that regard.

[01:42:49]>> Glory to God.

[01:42:50]>> Yeah, I know. I appreciate it, man. And I want to give you this icon right here.

[01:42:53]This icon >> No way. Which one?

[01:42:55]>> This one right here. The No, that the Nektarios one is mine.

[01:42:57]>> Oh.

[01:42:58]This one right here?

[01:42:59]>> I'm keeping this one. Uh yeah, this >> This one you're going to give to me? Get out of here. Stop. Are you really?

[01:43:05]>> Yeah.

[01:43:05]>> This guy's never given me anything.

[01:43:07]>> You're the You're the [laughter] ecumenist final boss.

[01:43:09]>> I'm the ecumenist final boss?

[01:43:10]>> You deserve it. Yeah.

[01:43:11]>> Brother, look at how beautiful Are you really going to give this to me? Or is this just for the cameras?

[01:43:15]>> No, no. Yeah.

[01:43:16]>> Really? Look at this.

[01:43:16]>> Talk to me after.

[01:43:17]>> All [laughter] right.

[01:43:18]I love Really?

[01:43:20]>> Yeah.

[01:43:20]>> Oh.

[01:43:21]>> Cuz this is the this is it. This is it.

[01:43:23]This is the This is everything. This is the apostles joined together, Saints Peter and Paul holding up Holy Mother Church.

[01:43:29]>> beautiful.

[01:43:30]Really? This is This is mine?

[01:43:32]>> This is the end goal of of the world, you know.

[01:43:36]>> I love you.

[01:43:37]>> Me too, brother.

[01:43:38]>> Thank you, brother. And again, I I admire you so much. I admire you for going on the journey, for doing your homework, doing your due diligence, sticking to your to your guns, meaning that you were not going to compromise the truth for anything. Like, I think that me, myself, all of us, myself included, we can all learn from you.

[01:43:54]Um so I'm happy that you are firmly here in the church. And I think that you and I, brother, are going to be a tag team for the rest of our lives in helping people come to the realization that you've that you came to. So >> Appreciate it, >> Glory to God.

[01:44:12]>> Praise God for >> Thank you, brother. Glory to God. Glory to Jesus Christ.