In horror storytelling, mirrors serve as powerful psychological symbols representing self-reflection, self-discovery, and the confrontation with one's true self. In 'The Fall of the House of Usher' episode 'Goldbug,' Tammy Usher's apartment is deliberately designed with excessive mirrors to symbolize her self-hatred, loneliness, and inability to accept love from her husband Bill. The mirrors create a prison of self-reflection that ultimately leads to her death, demonstrating how environmental storytelling through set design can communicate complex psychological states without explicit dialogue. This technique connects to broader horror traditions where mirrors represent the uncanny and the confrontation with one's own mortality.
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Flanagan's Wake : THE FALL OF THE HOUSE OF USHER - Episode 6: "Goldbug"
Added:[ __ ] dude. This mug is so hot.
[laughter] I am not going to be able to drink this tea.
Oh, it's so hot. It's going to be an hour into the show before I'm able to pick that up.
>> Maybe you need to drop an ice cube in there.
>> Oh, some sort of iced tea.
>> There you go. That was it. [laughter] That can't be it. That can't be it. we would lose all credibility as humans which is why it has to be it.
>> Yeah, that's a complicated logic but I think I follow you.
Hello and welcome to Flanigan's Wake, a DOF Media podcast looking for the man in Mike Flanigan's mirror. My name is Scott Dailyaly and joining me as always, he's been to Ultimate Thu and back and all he got was his death of the concept of self. It's Matt Freeman. How's it going today, Matt?
>> I'm doing fantastic. I achieved enlightenment and feel neither time nor space nor distance. And um it turns out that when that happens to you, you just really want to talk about a really good TV show.
>> Yeah. I think Flat Earth is out and Hollow Earth. That's in.
>> Yeah.
>> So in >> Yeah. No, I think there's a lot of evidence for it.
>> And both Godzilla and King Kong support the theory, so you know you're doing it right.
>> Yeah.
>> Next week. Sorry. Go ahead.
>> I was just going to say the evidence is that it would be sick as hell.
>> Yeah. [laughter] This week on the show, our coverage of Mike Flanigan's the fall of the House of Usher continues with episode six, Gold Bug. It's time for the big launch as Tammerlane finally steps into the limelight and everything everything goes great, Matt. It's the perfect launch. No notes. It's all good here. How are you?
>> Yeah, I mean, she certainly um does a lot of thinking on her feet. We'll say that for her.
>> She also does a lot of walking on mirror shards on her feet.
>> True. [laughter] >> My favorite part I know we're jumping.
My favorite part is that random blogger in the back of the room that goes Tamarlain Usher is so over.
>> Tamarane [laughter] Usher is over.
>> Just in case we had any doubts.
>> It's great.
>> Matt, what' you think? This was this was the Tammy Usher episode. This was Sam Syian to get her chance to really stretch her legs here. Uh, what did you think of the episode?
>> I loved it. It was very fun. Um, it was delightful focusing on Samantha Syan for a whole episode. Solid. It was It was her episode, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, >> don't you kind of wish we had waited to watch the episode before we talked to her? I kind of regret the timing of it.
I mean, a little bit, but also that got to be a conversation where we focused a lot on talking about Bev, which I which which I had wanted to for literally years, you know.
>> Fair.
>> So, now we could talk about uh uh Tamar Lane with her some other time. There you go.
>> Yeah, we'll invite her on right after Carrie and instead of talking about Margaret White.
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> We'll talk about Tamar Lane Usher and then we'll just keep keep rolling it forward. will just be like, I haven't watched any Carrie yet for some reason.
[laughter] But yeah, no, >> I did before we get into the episode, I had a correction of sorts. And this is the kind of the weird thing with our recording schedule where by the time our listeners are hearing this, it will be two episodes ago, but it was literally like two days ago where I messaged you and went like, "Oh, I'm stupid."
um which is at the very end of episode 4 of the show the black cat when Leo Usher has fallen out of off of his balcony smashed on the floor below uh a cat walks up and and sits on him and that's how we close the episode and I swear to God Matt I I have this very distinct memory of going like why are we seeing the cat again maybe and and I just like shrugged and went like it's probably just Vera [ __ ] with him and And then we had several listeners point out that no, that cat is Pluto. He's wearing the Gucci collar still. That is Pluto. So, um, the idea is basically that Leo actually never killed the cat. Like we said on that episode that in in episode 4, the black cat, the cat that he finds doesn't exist, right? That cat never existed. And we knew that. But what the episode says at the very end is that even the moment where he kills the cat brutally hides it, that didn't exist either. Um that was all part of his drug hallucination or what have you.
Yeah. Um I th those people those listeners who pointed that out are exactly right.
That's great. I didn't didn't clock that, but it totally makes sense. I even remember seeing the collar now when it's pointed out.
>> Yeah. I I will say, and I think this sort of chains nicely into this episode, that does make me a little bit less sure of what exactly Leo is being punished for.
>> And and the reason it chains into this episode specifically is I'm I'm less sure what Tamarlin is being punished for. Um, and I because I and I contextualize this as basically just like look, the the other characters >> were were either like deeply complicit in the family's evil to the extent of perpetuating it or just had like really glaring flaws in other ways. But like Tamarlin, you know, she's very mean >> Mhm.
>> to her husband in particular.
>> Sure.
>> Does she deserve death? And and and we kind of talked about this last time um when we talked about um not last time, two two weeks ago when we talked about Leo because it was like I mean he turns a blind eye to the family's evils and he benefits from the family's evils, but does he deserve death? Right. Um I don't I don't know. I don't have a like point.
I'm just kind of airing my my thoughts about this here because, you know, it's simply that like you watch Tamlin get tortured and and die in this episode and I'm like, I don't know that she I don't know that she did anything that bad.
>> Well, she stop hitting your mirrors with a fire poker and you won't get tortured and die.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it could it could just be like, look, Matt, you're thinking about it wrong. This isn't about justice. This is about like this is just like this is this just happened. She she did this to herself.
>> Mhm.
>> There there is no justice here. This she is just self-destructive. Doesn't doesn't mean she deserved it. It's just the consequences of her actions in a very mundane sense perhaps.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's definitely things that I can talk about that I'm just going to hold on for until we see the full scope of what the show is doing.
Um, but I think I think that's a fair assessment to make right now would be like like are we doing out justice? Each of these kids is is terrible in their own way. And and I don't think you're arguing that they're not like shitty people, but like is is being a shitty person worthy of of a horrible gruesome death? Maybe.
>> Um but but maybe not, right?
>> So So yeah, I think what I think that's just the type of thing we're going to have to put a pin in. I think at least you're gonna have no qualms with this in next week's episode. Um because I think we can firmly say that Frederick is in the camp of horrible monster um after after the events of this here episode.
>> I I'm really I've really enjoyed this by the way because I distinctly remember toward the beginning of the show being like Frederick seems to be the nice one.
[laughter] Like he has a daughter that he seems to have a decent relationship with. He has a wife and they talk to each other. They don't swear at each other and they don't have any weird, [laughter] you know, satto masochism stuff going on and and and like nope. Uh he is possibly the worst. Actually, >> I I have this very distinct memory of texting our friend Jody while you were talking in the middle of the podcast saying, "I'm currently listening to Matt talk about how great Frederick is.
[laughter] >> He's so He's such a sweet guy. Look at him bowling. He looks so He looks so uh you know happy and childlike.
>> I think all of that is a testament to just Henry Thomas and and the way he can play this character to and we talked about this a little last week, but the way he can take what is goofy and kind of a punchline into something very very sinister. Um very good at it. And then we see the culmination of that or maybe maybe not the culmination. We don't know what's going to happen next week, but certainly a culmination of that idea.
>> Yeah.
All right, so let's get into it. Episode six, Goldbug. This episode, of course, was written by Mike Flanigan and Rebecca Clingell. It was directed by Mike Flanigan. I believe that means our final two episodes are going to be back in the hands of Michael Fagnari. Uh, this episode was edited by Brett W. Bachmann and Mr. Mike Flanigan. And the director of photography was Michael Mcnari. Once again, DP on all the episodes. steps steps in and directs for a few, but uh managing those lenses and those lights on every single one.
>> Cool.
>> All right, Matt, let's begin with this opening section of this episode. Uh which is I think maybe poundforpound like one of my favorite bits of the show so far. Uh so we open on Tammy alone in this hotel room. We have this kind of beautiful piano score playing behind her as she goes about her business and it being interrupted time and time again from her loss of consciousness. And I just really like the setup of this. This almost operates in and of itself as like a little short story where we are seeing her go through it. It's she's very alone. I think the camera does a very good job of of capturing her loneliness.
Um, and then also kind of the way it's playing with the idea of losing consciousness and losing time and and not just losing time, but losing actions too, right? It's not just We get the wonderful moment where she falls asleep and hits her head on the mirror.
>> Foreshadowing.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And then and that's like, okay, she was like looking in the mirror and she fell asleep. And then with the the teacettle like we expect her, oh, she fell asleep and the teac kettle is going off. And it's like, no wait, the teac kettle had gone off. she filled her tea up and then later she had drank all her tea and so she's not just losing consciousness, she's losing time. Um, and that is adding to this disorientation and her the hallucination she's seeing and and she's suffering from insomnia. This is what we learned definitively in this episode. It's not just that she's choosing not to sleep, she has insomnia.
She's not able to sleep and um it it's really messing her up and it kind of leads into everything that happens with her here. Um, here's here's something in the beginning, Matt, that I've been waiting to say to you for six weeks.
>> Okay.
>> Have you ever noticed how many mirrors there are in Tammy's apartment?
>> Uh, just like I don't notice ghosts, I don't notice mirrors. [laughter] >> I told myself I was like, I wasn't going to comment on the mirrors unless Matt commented on the mirrors until we get to this episode. So, I was just standing by. And I think like even before we get to the idea of the mirrors being the thing that ultimately kills her, like it is such an interesting choice to make her like signature thing, the mirrors, right? The reflections, this idea of of voyerism, right? She's she's looking.
She likes to look. She likes to watch, but it's herself. She likes to watch a reflection of herself, a version of herself. Um, and I I I love I love that motif. and like it's it's there in the background of the show the whole time.
Um, but it is in this episode that it really comes to to focus, especially as we end this this gorgeous opening section of the show with her laying down on the bed looking up at the mirroring on her ceiling, which I got to say, I didn't know I didn't know Tammy Usher got it got it down like that. I thought she was just interested in in sliding down in a chair and watching her husband make dinner. So, I think I distinctly did notice the mirror on the ceiling, but I I forgot to say anything about it because that's, you know, that's a that's a choice, right? That's a >> no.
>> Um, uh, you know, I I I think we can we can draw out, you know, what is the metaphor of the mirrors even further than that, right? Because it's like she she is terrified of disappointing herself and her family. She kind of she kind of hates herself.
>> She Oh, yeah. She Oh, she despises herself.
>> This is why she's so mean, basically.
Um, and this is sort of like every every kid has a different reaction to like not being loved by their father, right? And and hers is to find herself inadequate and to to hate herself, but to demand more and more basically to to demand the impossible of herself.
>> Yeah. And then she surrounds herself with mirrors, but like you said, she has this this voyerism thing where she wants to watch like a better version of herself so that she can sort of relax and disappear into that.
>> But then she surrounds herself with mirrors which reminds her of who she is and you know it's like a prison.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I love all that. I want to talk about the decor. Right. So this is a thing we've talked a bit about it kind of as it was relevant throughout the show.
Like, you know, Leo's apartment is full of gamer stuff and it's got this very particular aesthetic and um uh uh um the first the youngest kid, >> Prospero.
>> Prospero. Perry. Perry. I was I was reaching for his short his shorter name.
>> Perry his his is like this, you know, very, you know, almost almost dungeon-like sort of excess vibe uh >> with with like very self argrandizing, right? like it's pictures of him over and over and over and over again.
>> Good point. So, in this one, we have what really is a almost like a a furniture catalog sort of decor. It's [laughter] It's very like I I don't know what the right reference is here. It like it's like an Ethan Allen furniture catalog or something except with a lot more mirrors than you would usually have in such a place. But, but like very sort of safe choices. I I just Googled some like Tamarlain Usher apartment and the first thing that comes up is her Vince double slit fluffy alpaca blend mock neck um sweater that she's wearing. So like it's her wardrobe and and her and her environment are these sort of like straight out of a of a magazine of how of like you know the this kind of lifestyle the the co the sort of cozy um classy uh uh expensive uh uh like but not not lived in. Like I think this is one thing I really noticed when she was making the tea is she's making tea and this kitchen island is stretching out behind her and there's nothing on the island, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Which it's like that's not a big deal, right? It's like, well, there's absolutely nothing on the island. And it's like in the middle of the shot, and it it's just like only in a house where no one actually lives would there be nothing on the island. And she's just she just a person who sort of leaves no imprint. U I I don't know. I'm I was just I was just noticing how the environment and the the the apartment that she lives in emphasizes her her her loneliness, her sort of lack of connection to anything cuz because it feels like it's a you know what like the the part of the furniture store where they're they have the couch and the chair and the the you know one lives there. If if someone lived there it would be messy but nothing is messy because she she doesn't leave any trace. She's this creature of appearance.
>> I totally agree. I mean, the way I described it in my head as I was watching is like nothing in this apartment looks bad because it's almost like clinically scientifically designed to not look bad. But I think what you said safe and I think that's very true like this is devoid of personality. It's devoid like who are the people that live here? You look around and it was like what are they like? Well, there's a bunch of mirrors so maybe themselves.
But that's the great irony of Tamarine Usher is that no actually she hates herself. Um, but yeah, it's just it's just very milk toast, very plain, very safe, very boring. Like I said, it doesn't look bad. It's it's nice. They they have a lot of money. They're rich.
And and you could make an argument that one of the reasons why it looks so clean is cuz they probably have a daily cleaning crew that's coming in and cleaning up constantly. But I actually think the real point is exactly what you say is that it looks sterile. It looks empty. It looks unlived in. This is a place that is very, very alone. And and I think the number of mirrors in the place serves to do what mirrors do very well in a small space, which is make it look bigger. And and I think it makes this place look like cavernous at times.
Like there that that one particular shot when Tammy sees uh Candy aka Vera um out of the corner of her eye walking down a hallway and follows her into the hallway. And our camera like pushes down the hallway. And as we do that, like we're seeing the in the mirrors like it bouncing and reflecting off like one or two other mirrors and just makes it seem like this place is is absolutely massive, but as you said, absolutely empty. Um it it just really I I I think it's a very good set deck. I think it's it's very good at establishing and this has been true from the very beginning of the show. The difference was during all those times at least she had Bill Te to fill the house a little bit. um that that Bill was there and he is such a warm presence in the space that he brings it to life in a way that we only really see once she's alone there how empty and and null it feels.
>> I like that. That's true.
>> Yeah. You know, I don't usually feel that mirrors are creepy intrinsically. I mean, if we're watching something like Oculus, then mirrors can definitely get creepy, but like >> this this episode really made me feel like mirrors are creepy. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Um it's just an excessive amount of them. It's so many.
And just to say that, like that's the type of thing where if you're like, for example, trying to shoot a television show in a space, that's got to be a nightmare. Like the amount of angles that you have lost in any space because you have just this absurd amount of mirrors in your space. Like it really limits where you can put the camera and what you can do. And I'm sure they had like I'm sure this was a set and they had like sliding walls that they could just move out of the way to to break down some of that reflective spaces. But there's a lot of mirrors in these shots.
Like there's shots in this episode with like three four mirrors in it and it's just like oh so we have this little corner that we can put the camera and that's it. And the fact that it all like the I think this the film making like just looks great in in these moments.
Like there's there's some great tracking shots as we kind of follow Tammy through the house and like I don't know why it stuck with me, but the once we go down that hallway, I really loved that tracking shot. And then as the camera moves into the kitchen, I I I feel like it's probably a steady cam shot as like the the camera like turns and moves into the kitchen and then Tammy cuts into the frame from the side as we push into the incredibly empty kitchen with just the Gold Bug box on the on the counter. Um, I just liked that camera move in particular. I can't even say why. I was just like, "Oh, that's that's that's nice. That looks nice. That looks very smooth. I like it."
>> Yeah.
Yeah. I I I I wonder, you know, do we know uh it just occurred to me as you were going through all that, like do do we know how the scene with all the breaking mirrors was shot? Do we have any information about that? I always wonder cuz like it really looks to me like um like she's like like Samantha is smashing mirrors with with a with the stick, right? And it's like >> I I almost want to say that's probably not actually happening because it would be incredibly unsafe. And I don't know if there's a way to make >> mirror glass not dangerous. I mean, maybe >> Yeah, I don't know. It just it looks it it looks very convincing. It looks so convincing that I don't see how they could have really faked it. But I almost can't believe they would have really done it. I mean, especially the scene with the um where she smashes the mirror above her, >> which is this slow motion shot and like nothing >> gorgeous.
>> Yeah.
>> Nothing about it looks uh wrong, right?
Like it has to be >> it has to be that she jumped on a bed and fell on a bed and they CGIed in a bunch of glass, though. Like I don't see how >> certainly. Yeah. Yeah. But it looks really good like for that. Like it looks really good. Yeah, >> I I love that whole sequence. I One thing I do want to say about the apartment while we're talking about it though is this is something that I think only appeared in the second in in the the episode before this one, but it's it's the element that gets us our green tint as we as things start to really collapse. And that is this this very obnoxiously like bright green neon sign that is on the building across from their their apartment. And I think it it sticks out and it would stick out anyway because it's so bright green and we know Tammy's color is green, but like in such a apartment that's kind of like devoid of any kind of emotion or style or anything like that it sticks out even more. Like I really love that shot where we see the picture of of Bill and Tammy um together and then we're seeing the the reflection of the green sign from through the window and that's when we also get to see the Vera dressed up as Tammy reflection bounce off that as well. Um, which like speaking of that, I I was like convinced that there was gonna be like hidden Vera reflections everywhere in this opening scene. And I all I got was that one that that the show clearly telegraphs for us.
I was like looking I I rewatched the scene so many times was looking like in every corner of mirror or right before the camera moves off of reflection and there's not any. And I wonder if there was a real temptation to do that to like to hide her in the mirrors a lot of times as we walk through. But the practicality of making that work with our already like very limited angles of where we can put the camera. Now you want to also hide a character who has to not get seen in the camera only seeing the reflection is limiting another space we can put the camera and they just said we can't we can't make that work in a way we want to. Um this is a conjecture I don't know but I was convinced there was some hidden hidden vera there somewhere.
Yeah, I didn't see any either, but that doesn't mean anything. [laughter] >> Yeah, you're not really reliable with the hidden the hidden people. Um, what' you think of the gold bug box, though? I I I I got a little laugh last week when you said, I keep associating with this this with the scarab for some reason.
Then I was like, oh, oh, it's cuz it is.
>> Yeah. Um, >> you can also see when when when uh when Tammy is at the funeral in last week's episode, um, she is wearing like a pin on her hat and it is like a gold bug pin and is a scarab. So, you also maybe subconsciously clocked that.
>> There's a lot of Egypt stuff actually.
>> Um, >> I don't know if we talked about this yet, but um, >> uh, Rodri's been waving around that cop for a couple episodes now, [laughter] >> which >> what a way to greet your granddaughter.
Yeah. Yeah. No, he's really in it.
[laughter] Yeah.
>> And then he has the Egyptian, you know, emeralds.
>> Uh and and then the gold bug is a is a gold kind of Egyptian style scarab. Um >> ancient Egyptian rather. Yeah. So um and then Meline was compared to Cleopatra in a couple episodes ago by Vera. Um, no, there's definitely definitely some recurring Egyptian beats in this, which is like I mean maybe there's some great thematic stuff that we can dive into when we get through the whole show, but it also speaks to me of like a specific like kind of western aristocracy's obsession with ancient Egypt. Um, that I think has been something that's been true forever. Yeah.
>> Um, that like very very rich people of the West have this weird similar to an obsession with the Roman Empire, but this is a little different um with with the the with Egyptian culture and relics and wanting to own all this stuff. Um that's that strikes me as something very very specific to like a a western aristocratic class of people. Yeah, it also reminds me of, you know, the it's it's not an Edgar Allen Poe poem, but you know, Aussie Mandius where it's basically about like a a fallen forgotten empire where, you know, in context of of this dynasty, right, the the Asher dynasty which is falling just like the Egyptians did. I did a quick search >> absolutely >> did a quick search to see did Po write about Egypt >> and he wrote [snorts] he wrote apparently a satirical short story called Some Words with a Mummy.
[laughter] um in which uh in in which a man discourses with a revived mummy.
>> Cool.
>> Um I'm that's that's delightful. I love that.
Um, >> I actually think I I and I'm I'm not remembering exactly where I saw this or when, but I think I remember seeing something that like in Pose time like we were learning a lot more about ancient Egypt and it be like it became an invogue thing to to like really get into ancient Egypt in that time. And so maybe that story you're talking about was his way of like satarizing that that new obsession. And then Flanigan and his team are channeling that into House of Usher as a way of another another reference to Edgar Poe.
>> Yeah, it's entirely possible. Um I I mean we didn't read the story, so I can't really uh really say. Um, >> yeah, >> I I I mean that just skimming this Wikipedia article, which is, you know, the height of journalism, it seems like >> it seems like uh Po is specifically lampooning the idea that modern men, men of the 1850s are more civilized than the people of the past. And in fact, that that they are the pinnacle of civilization. and they talk to this ancient Egyptian mummy and the mummy, you know, essentially punctures this delusion, which is a fun I don't know if it's like the tightest mesh with with the show we're watching, but it is kind of an interesting like, you know, puncturing hubris being a cool um connection possibly.
>> I like that. I like that a lot.
>> Um >> Um Yeah, >> sorry. Go ahead.
>> No, I I think you asked about Goldbug and >> the box. The box itself >> talked about the box. It's a box full of treasures. I mean, so so the I was trying to make connections to the story, right? So the story involves a literal golden bug, which is sort of sort of in a in a weirdly tangential way involved in a guy finding a treasure.
Um, so I kind of thought the connection here is like, well, the box itself is meant to be the thing that contains the treasure.
>> Sure.
>> But in this particular case, the treasure is sort of snake oil. Um, and >> almost almost literally.
>> Yeah. [laughter] If snake oil existed, then the box would have snake oil in it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, I I think that's true. I I really like thought long and hard on the ways we could tie this back to Goldbug, which is which is such an unusual post story. It is different from every other post story we read. And I think that the honest conclusion is that outside of like Tammy's obsession with the gold bug as like a brief thing at the beginning of of that short story was that uh Jupiter's concern that his master was getting overly obsessed with this thing. Um that's the only real link I had. It's really funny because the actual post story that this much more closely aligns with is um is is is William Wilson um which is the story about Bill Ty, our character Bill Ty because in the in that post short story, it is a story about a man who starts seeing his doppelganger and then um gets gets kind of driven insane by his doppelganger, eventually ends up stabbing his doppelganger only to realize he's just killed himself. So, um, that is a much more kind of almost onetoone, not quite, but almost onetoone comparison for Tammy. And so, like I wonder, you know, just in the in the in the creation of the show and creation of the characters and the creation of which post stories are we going to focus on and which post stories are going to become our our titular stories. Um, I wonder how many revisions that went through. Like I wonder if there was a version of the story where it wasn't Tamarlain Usher at the beginning, it was William Usher or something and then it just we came up with this Tammy character. It's like the perfect character for Sam Sloan to play.
So we had to make it and then we have to move away from from the William Wilson doppelganger story line. But maybe we don't. And what about Gold Bug? Can we fit Gold Bug in? Well, we can reference it. I mean, and all the stories reference the Po story to various degrees, right? And I just think it's true that this one probably is the least referential to uh its its source material.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in some ways it's also referential to the to the Tamarlin poem. So, I did I did a a tiny bit of research here because I was curious about the name Tamarlin and we did not read the poem Tamarllin, but >> uh apparently, you know, Po wrote this poem and it's a fictionalized account of the uh of the story of uh a guy who's actually named uh Teeour, I believe, who was a Sorry, I wrote this down and now I can't find my notes. Who was a, you know, Turo Mongul conqueror in the in the 1300s.
Um, probably a descendant of Genghaskhan, although apparently people disagree about whether that's true.
>> I feel like I feel like 50% of the world has claimed at some point that they're a descendant of Genghaskhan.
>> That's certainly true now. I'm just not sure how much true how true that was in the 1300s. But anyway, he he was he's one of those guys who he's currently, you know, still beloved in like Afghanistan and Iran and Central Asia and then like really deeply hated in all of the surrounding areas because of all the massacring that he did. Um, a lot of massacring with this guy, but but the Po story is more again highly fictionalized. It's basically saying that he, you know, abandoned his his young love so that he could go become uh a conqueror and a founder of this empire. And it's so sort of turning it into this romantic thing, which I the connection I'm reaching for here is that Tammy essentially does this to Bill. you know, Bill Bill is the the the [clears throat] potential for for real love and real connection that she she >> attempts, you know, she abandons in favor of her vision of greatness and and, you know, doing something new, being a part of the Usher Empire. Um, >> I love that. Um, I didn't look into that at all, so thank you for doing the hard work there. Um, that's really cool. I know. I mean, I knew every single character in the show has a a reference to a Poem or short story. I should have actually like looked up all the short stories. Like I said, when we were doing the Edgar Allen Po stuff, we could have done that for three months.
>> Yeah.
>> And and not gotten every single thing that that is referenced in this show.
>> This is the I mean, Tamarland was the only one where I didn't know I had no idea what it was and what it was referencing. But anyway, so so I think I think the point of us kind of sifting through all this stuff is that yes, all of these things are >> somewhat connected, even if just thematically.
And and that's very fun.
>> Yeah.
>> And I like that.
>> Yeah. Me, too.
>> The the Goldbug box is interesting because, you know, she's in her mind at least, she's doing something different.
She's doing something unlike what the ushers have done in the past.
>> Yeah. And if we're get just to briefly tie it back to what we were talking about a minute ago with does she deserve this. I think one thing you could say critically say about her is it's not really that different because she's essentially promoting >> ineffective >> highly expensive >> uh you know >> gift wrapped garbage to people like like it it's got the spin like the spin element of the ushers where we take we take the lemons right we take the lemons and we make and we and we do hashtaglemon Right. We there's fundamentally nothing here. It's not actually wellness treatments. Like it's not actually medicine. It's >> Yeah.
>> It's just it's all just smoke and mirrors.
>> So while she thinks she's doing something very different, it's actually just this uh uh you know, focus grouped uh repeat of of the thing that they've been doing the whole time.
>> What are you talking about? It has black diamond truffle extract in it, Matt.
>> Yeah, black diamond.
>> We all know that that's g it's it's the fountain of youth.
>> That's That's what I've always heard.
Truffle truffle extract as a as a I mean, I'm sure it's very expensive. So, >> well, you got to get the Black Diamond stuff, Matt. It does. It does remind me of the absurdity of uh Perry's eggs where like it is it is like it is really interesting because it is this it it seems like Tammy's trying to sell like multiple things at once. She's trying to sell health and wellness. Sure. But it's it's like in an effort to show this is not just another subscription box. It's like, well, this is stuff like it's it's going to be incredibly tailored and personalized to you, which let me tell you something that every single subscription box says, literally every single one says it's going to be tailored and personalized to you. That's like the whole thing with the subscription box, right? That's like from the cheapest subscription box to the most expensive subscription box.
It's like you're gonna get to pick and choose the things you want and it's going to be the things that most benefit you. That's the whole deal behind a subscription box. Um even though some of them do like, you know, keep what you want and return what you don't at no price. It's the same thing. It's the same deal. Um but then yeah, it's this it's this idea, this illusion of health and wellness. And I and I think the the I want to talk a lot about the scene with Bill that we get in this episode because I love love that scene. Um but the the moment when Tammy kind of comes clean >> and and it turns out he's already left because >> it's different than anything barely able to say conscious and she probably waited. It was after he left that she started talking. She says >> we're more than just Fortunado, not just pushers.
>> That we I just want to see that we're more than just Fortunado. That we're not just pill pushers. We can be about health and about beauty.
>> And the usher name is more than just Rodri and Meline, you know? So like I think in in a very similar way to the way her father pushed liodone as this thing, this change the world thing that's going to solve this problem. It's not going to just be about um selling drugs, but it's going to be about giving people a world without pain.
Tammy has convinced herself that this is about more than just selling product.
It's about health and beauty. This is about really helping people and providing something to people that is new and different from just the drug pedaling that has that the ushers have made their name for. But then she lets slip at the very end that what it's really about is that the usher name is more than just Rodri and Meline. That what this is really about is proving that she is worthy. That proving that she can do something. And and there's a lot to this. Like up until this point, Matt, we've had our four bastard children are the ones that we focused on until then. And and not to say that they're any less ushers than the others, but I do think there's an added amount of pressure put on Tammy by perhaps herself, perhaps her father, probably a little bit of both. That it's like you are the quote unquote real usher and you are expected to be like better than the bastards than than the ones that um I think I think Frederick says in this episode, they're not real ushers and they're not they're not good. [laughter] He says they're not really all that. Um, and so there's this added pressure to that. It's like not only do I have the same level of expectation placed on myself by my father that all the other kids in the in that we've seen so far, but Tammy feels like this extra level of like I I am comparing myself to Rodri and Maline Usher, two of the most successful human beings in the history of the world. They built this huge empire. Meline is a literal genius. We we saw that um Rodri has has built this incredible company. Um he's a billionaire. He's hugely successful. And that is her comparison point. And it's like scrambling to come up with an idea that's good enough for that. And this is the thing she landed on because it's different enough while still being part of it. But it's all just like just like the liodone. To get back to your point, just like the liodone, it's all fake. It's not real.
It's not doing anything actually. It's you're selling junk and disguising it as luxury and and then and unlike unlike the Prospero wrapping of luxury is exclusivity and and debauchery. This is this is um a luxury of exclusivity and like this stuff is banned in the United States. You can't even get this stuff here. We're going to put it in the box and send it to you. But it's all it's snake oil. That's all it is.
>> Yeah. I mean, I think I think that's that's what it is. Um, she's she's no better than them. And and maybe that's maybe that's part of why she hates herself. Like in addition to, you know, she she wants to be better than them, but she's trapped in their shadow.
>> Mhm.
Yeah. And her dad just does a really [ __ ] terrible job of making her feel like she's loved and like she doesn't have to worry about this and like everything's going to be okay and even if this thing doesn't work, you're going to be fine. uh doesn't do any of that.
That is actually so this is this is an idea I had that I wanted to run by you of like it really it really struck me in this episode where we have Tammy calling her father he's not answering. She goes to the house he's not there.
>> Meline is telling Rodri like your daughter needs you >> go to her help her. Same thing with with Lenor comes to talk to Rodri about >> about Frederick and how she's worried about her father and he just kind of blows it off. Like these are kids that are like desperately seeking like directly seeking help from their dad and he's completely unable to be responsive to it. And it made me think about every single death that's happened in the show so far. Like if Rodri had a relationship with with Perry that was like good and healthy and he feel like he could come to his dad about this party idea he has maybe daddy says, "Hey, those aren't water tanks up there." Um, that's acid.
[laughter] If if Camille has a good enough relationship with her dad, maybe she goes to her dad with this information that she thinks she's found out about um Vic and they can go together and confront Vic together and she doesn't have to sneak off to uh an animal testing facility in the middle of the night. If Leo has this problem with this cat, uh he he thinks he's killed this cat. If he had a relationship with his father, we go to his father. I'm freaking out, Dad. I'm losing it. Um something's going on with me. Maybe we could talk through it together. And same same with Vic, right? If if Vic if if Usher fostered a relationship with Victorine that she could come clean to him about the fact that our tests are failing, things aren't working, maybe it doesn't get to this level of suicide and death and horribleness. And like it just seems like across the board if he was just an actual father to these kids, if he fostered a relationship with these kids where they could come to them with their problems, where they could have they could communicate and he could be an emotional a level of emotional stability for them, then maybe we could have avoided some of these deaths.
Maybe.
>> Yeah. No, I love that. Um he's just a horrible father.
>> Yeah, he's Yeah. I mean, he's he's he's in addition to all of his actual like his flaws as like a guy who voiceed this horrible drug upon the world. I just totally separate from that. I think he's just being a terrible father and having no real connection with any of his children is his own separate flaw.
>> Yeah. And and and we see in this episode, it's it's remarkable how shitty he is in this episode because we get to see him come back from witnessing his daughter stab herself in the heart and kill herself. And he's clearly shell shocked. He's losing it. He's rambling about sapphires that he bought for his sister to the the the ghosts of his children. Um and then Meline comes in and says, "Don't forget Vic had a board seat." And it's like a board seat. like Flanigan even does the second she says that Flanigan starts doing a push in um as like to to signal like oh he's listening now and he >> immediately straightens up he's like all right that is a problem I can solve he goes goes to the board and he starts wrangling the board and let's let's be clear here nothing has happened >> with the board yet right he's he's making precautionary moves to ensure that if they continue to lose usher seats on the board that they're not in a situation where They lose control of the company. Meanwhile, your daughter and son have just watched four of their siblings die in the course of a week. They're probably freaking out. And in no no part of his day is like, "That's something I can do. I can go comfort them and let them know that it's going to be okay, that they're going to be fine, that we're working on this together, that let's team up. You you guys are my only two kids left, my my trueborn children. Let's get together. He doesn't even see Tammy or Frederick in this episode at all.
They're not in the room together at any point in this episode.
He sucks so much.
>> Yeah.
Yeah. We're seeing we're seeing the worst of him, right? It's interesting how I I feel like similarly to to my my perception of of Frederick deteriorating over time. It's like we've really seen his true colors emerge as we've seen his children begin to die one by one. And instead of >> instead of appearing to have any kind of normal reaction to this, he has sort of spiraled into his own solopistic uh weird universe where he's just detached from all of them and barely even reacts anymore.
Um, I'm I'm debating whether to go into all the stuff from last episode where he like was going to kill himself and then decided not to and and the show was really KG about like what like what does he think is happening here exactly? like he seems to he seems to have some there seems to be something that that he and and Meline know or are in denial about and and he's he's like >> struggling with it >> and that's part of what's happening like go ahead.
>> No, I just say Meline doesn't seem to be in denial about it at all. She's come to a level of acceptance. I know exactly what's happening here. You know exactly what's happening here. Why are you refusing to admit it? and he is again and again and again denying it.
>> I think I think maybe the scene where he where he thinks about killing himself was him grappling with this thing, whatever it is, and then and then kind of not being able to go through with it, but we still don't know what the what it is exactly.
Um, >> so I mean it seems almost like some kind of devil's bargain that they made >> that that was like it's this is going to become due someday. You know, is this the kind of thing [music] >> I'm saying this partially because of the fact that we see Vera with all of the rich people, >> you mean every single rich successful person for the last 120 years? Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and that's like the situation there is like Yeah. You >> make a bargain and then and then you become you become super wealthy, >> but you paid something, right? Or you you owe something perhaps. You haven't paid it yet, but you have to pay it eventually.
>> Sure.
>> Um Yeah. I I do think the vibe I got at least from Rodri by the end of the episode is that he held on to his denial of what was going on right until after all those pictures got tossed in front of him and right until after um Pim is like cleverly like no the metadata says the metadata says so and I think when he asks when he says can I have the room and they give him the room and he sits there and then the next time we see him he's down in the basement again and it seems like he's essentially given up he's like nothing matters it doesn't matter Um, maybe this is finally Rodri has accepted >> Meline's version of of what is happening, whatever whatever that is.
>> Yeah. I mean, I I I'm not going to argue with you. I think the the only wrinkle there is that he also doesn't seem to be sure that anything is happening actually and that he's not just losing his mind.
So, >> yeah, that's the other thing. My my heart is dying. My head is dying. I don't even know if you're here right now. He's >> he's losing it. He's absolutely losing it. He's seeing his children constantly.
They're constantly around him. Just the presence there messing with him. Um, and he he hears those bells behind that wall, which means absolutely nothing.
Don't worry about it.
>> I do just want to say, so I really do like the scene with Pim and Meline and Rodri. We're going through the pictures.
There's a couple things in there where I'm just like, okay. [laughter] The one of them was when Pim says, "No, let me tell you. I I traced every female bartender in every bar within a 5m radius of Fortunado since 1975, and none of it matches up with what we have here." And I'm like, "Bullshit."
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> I'm Yeah. I'm I'm sure they I'm sure they diligently filed their WTS.
[laughter] Yeah.
>> A bartender at a at a dive bar in New York City. absolutely does not have records of who was the bartender in 1975. This is not, let me be clear here, I'm having fun here. This is not an actual complaint. This is like for the purpose of the show, we need to establish two things. Thing number one, the bar that they went to the night of New Year's Eve 1980 was not real. It was not a real bar. It never existed. It's a magic bar. That's what we've established. thing. Number two, um, Vera is actually present with every single rich person um, since 1901. And like that's another thing where I'm like, for the purpose of the show, in order to communicate that information to our characters, we have to have her be in all these pictures. But like in practicality, you're like, what? Why is she in all these pictures? Yeah.
>> Because she's not in pictures with Rodri.
>> Yeah. I I admit I I agree with you to the extent that while I was watching that scene, I was like, is Pim like making some of this up? Like, did did Pim actually doctor these photos?
Because >> like the the thing about Py is that the ushers just trust him because he's been a loyal servant all these years. But if he suddenly started photoshopping pictures, >> they have no way of checking that.
Certainly, you know, Rodri isn't going to go >> check the for a watermark. He's just like, "Oh, wow." Okay.
>> Um, so I I don't know. I don't know how to interpret Pim. Let's talk about Pim for a second, I guess, because >> the show >> I I think the last two episodes prior to this, we talked a bit about Pim and how mysterious he is and how the question was like, "Who is this guy? Why does he work for them?"
You know, obviously it's a big mystery and we got what feels like a reveal this episode, although I will say only a partial reveal because I still don't know why he works for Rodri um and the ushers. But but the reveal was basically he was on this expedition, this this fantastic international world spanning expedition.
What is it called? I'm looking >> globe. The clan trans globe expedition.
Is this real, by the way?
>> It's real. Yeah.
>> How come we don't do stuff like that anymore, Scott?
>> I don't know. I think some people probably do.
>> I I was gonna say it it feels it feels like the kind of thing that would have been popular in the 19th century. Like it like a you know sort of Shackleton vibes. It's like we're going to we're going to do this really hard uh thing ju just just because it's there, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> Um >> I mean I I I put a a map of it in our our show notes if you want to see what the actual route was. It starts in Greenwich, England. Um, and then heads south, cuts through Sahar and Africa and then sails down to Cape Town, then sails down to the South Pole, and then east to Sydney, and then further east up to LA, and then through the Northwest Passage all the way up to the North Pole, and then back down again. They basically like picked like the hardest possible route to go north to south on on the globe.
>> Yeah. and and yeah, visiting all the worst places like Los Angeles.
>> Um, [laughter] >> sorry.
>> Got him.
>> Got him. Um, >> yeah, I mean that's very cool. And then so he went on this adventure. So he like when he was a young man, he was this adventure almost a sort of swashbuckling, you know, pickerque figure perhaps. And >> yeah, they said said he took a break. He was in law school and he like took a break from law school to do this for three years.
>> Yeah.
And then horrible things happened when they were in the North Pole that he won't talk about.
>> Yeah.
>> And now he's doing this.
>> So there's some there's [clears throat] some stuff from the the novel that um Edgar Alen Poe wrote about Arthur Gordon Pin Pim that includes some stuff in the North Pole. It also includes some cannibalism. So that line where um Rodri says, "I hope he ate someone." Uh is a reference to to that. Uh, which also he says, I don't know if you caught the point part where he says when he's chasing down a lead, he's saying he's gonna have have someone for dinner. And I was like, haha, good joke. Because, you know, that's like a a thing that a Hannibal Lecter would do. It's like, I'm going to have him for dinner. And by that I mean, I'm going to eat him.
>> So, I I I believe I believe I believe what he said is I I like to think he's tasted people or something like that.
Yeah.
>> And and I love that the camera is actually showing um >> uh uh >> Dup Dup when he says this because Dupon's face goes from like they've kind of been riffing, right? They've kind of been having a nice time chatting >> and and and when he says I like to think that he's eating people, Dupon's face goes from sort of like like amused kind of having a good time >> to just like oh I just remembered that you're a monster and [laughter] >> I can dream. Um, I thought that was fantastic.
>> Yeah. So, so what we get here though is that is that Pim says he went to an island at the North Pole called Ultimath Thu. Thu is like old English for island. So, it's literally just like the ultimate island.
It's supposed to be this the idea of it is is supposed to be like the final frontier. It's like the place in which we the the the place the last place on earth. Um, and he saw there that the earth is hollow and filled with people that live outside of time and space.
This is a reference to an Edgar Alan Poe uh short story called or poem actually called Dreamland which I read today.
It's it's a actually it's a [ __ ] awesome poem. Like everyone should go read that poem. It's great. Um, and it references Ultim. Also like the most famous well-known uh picture of Po, the dgeray type of of Po is called Ultimathul after his poem. Like I think I think the woman that he was I think he asked her to marry her and it was turned down and then like tried to kill himself and failed in killing himself because he messed up. What I read is he was going to drink two doses of ladum and the second dose would have killed him, but the first dose he [ __ ] up and he got so sick that he wasn't able to take the second dose and they lived and then four days later he took this picture.
>> So, [laughter] so that's just if you want to know like the life of Edgar Poe. Um, but that this picture is called Ultimath um and is a reference to that poem. And if you've played the video game Final Fantasy 14, it's also a zone in that video game. So, yep.
>> Um, I love the idea of Ultim. I love the idea of this place of of a place beyond where people don't follow our rules and and I love the idea that Pim the the child that Pim told the story to was none other than Tamarlay Usher, who was our focal point of the episode. And you kind of wonder what that did to her to hear this, you know, like I think Rodri jokes around about it, but this idea of like just there's there's a realm of beings of people that live outside of time and space under all of us. Um, and maybe part of that is has warped her into the person she is that is seeing this this being this reflection of her. So I I don't know.
I'm just that's I'm making that up. I mean, that's kind of that's funny because I was just thinking about um us, the Jordan Peele film, >> and then you made the connection to to her and the doppelganger and then uh >> Perfect.
>> And I got got some chills there. Um [laughter] so I don't know. I don't know. That's cool though.
>> Yeah.
>> People living underground, doppelgangers, you know.
>> Watch that movie.
>> It's a great movie.
Um, I really just just to talk about the scene. I like that you mentioned that they're kind of joking around about the Trans Globe expedition. There's this moment where you can, you know, we were kind of told that these two men were friends at one point um throughout the course of these last six episodes and and when we met them, they were icy to each other or at least Dupon was to to Rodri. And so this is that moment when they're kind of joking around and like reciting the advertisement around this huge expedition that you can see like the old friendships are are there a little bit there. And then I think you're absolutely right that that that illusion is shattered and then we end the thing with Dupal being like, you know, it's funny you mentioned that because the reason why I know so much about this expedition is because when they got back to England and everyone was talking about it, I was watching a lot of TV cuz I was unemployed because of you. which I mean we I don't think the show was specifically stated that Rodri [ __ ] Dupon over in their whole scheming in the past, but I think you and I came to that conclusion or at least you came to that conclusion last week if not the week before. So, um we get like confirmation of that's that's kind of how this stuff is going to go down actually.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think it I think it almost has to like we were thinking about, you know, Roffus and what Rufus is going to do to him when he finds out that he is photocopying things like he he's going to he's going to try to do to Roderick what Rodri would do to someone who he caught photo photocopying something, right? He would he would probably try to have them killed literally.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and if not that then he would he would ruin their lives so thoroughly that death would be a blessing. Yeah.
Um, and Rodri being put in that position or or maybe we should say Rodick Rodri plus Meline being put in that position, they're going to have to kill him, you know. So, so I'm not I'm not not really justifying anything here, but I am saying like it's not exactly mysterious how we got here. Dup sort of put Rodrik in this impossible situation and Rodri reacted to preserve himself and you know this is what happened.
>> Yeah. I mean and I had a line of thinking along this which I I did want to talk to you and and let me be clear before we get into this like Roger Crusher is a monster. He's a terrible human being. Um that that is a a fact of the show. I think it is really interesting when we get to see back in the 1970s and we get to see Rodri and Dupon and Annabelle Lee this time with no Meline there importantly no Meline in that scene talking about what they're about to have to do and talking about the risks of it and and Rodri is obviously very nervous. Annabelle Lee is very nervous our moral center Annabelle Lee the one that is supposed to represent like good goodness incarnate.
um the she wants him to do the right thing, but she's also very nervous for him doing the right thing because it does carry a lot of risk. And and I I was really into this line of I'm putting my neck out there. This is Rodri saying this. I'm putting my neck right into a [ __ ] guillotine.
>> And Dupal says, "My neck's right there next to yours.
>> Putting my neck out there >> guillotine. My neck's right.
>> Is it though?" [laughter] Like like is it I mean I understand that there is some risk here for Dupont, right? Like Rufus Griswald is a very powerful man and and a very dangerous man, right?
That is true across the board. If you cross him, you are at risk. True. But I think Auggie is making it seem like they're both taking the same exact risk.
And I just don't think that's true. Like August Dupal is a medical fraud investigator, right? He's trying to build a case. That's what he is doing.
He's doing his job. Now, it is true.
We've seen established by the show that like his boss doesn't like him investigating this certain thing.
probably because he's paid off. Um, but his boss is not a fan of him investigating this, so he could get in trouble at his job for doing this thing, but he's doing his job. Roger Usher is whistleblowing on his job in in a time when I think I can't remember exactly when we really started to to really like set up whistleblowing laws to protect people coming forward on this kind of stuff. I don't know if in 1970 whatever we had strong enough whistleblowing laws that would protect Roger Gusher from legally from any kind of recourse if they found him doing this let alone what he's going to do to Roger Gusher if he's caught in that basement. Right. So the idea that his neck is right there next to yours to me uncharitably that is August Dupal pushing and manipulating Usher into doing something that he wants him to do. Um, and we've seen already that Dupal is not he's not the perfect angel, right? He lied about um the the informant to try to rustle them up and he he obviously wants them to do this and and I'm again I'm like he's trying to do the right thing.
I I support him on that. But the idea that he's make he's risking just as much I just don't buy.
>> Yeah. I I mean I I just think you're you're correct. Um Rodri has been put in a much worse situation.
You could argue that you could argue that Rufus would come after both of them and try to ruin both of their lives above and beyond just you know getting them fired. But >> but you know you could at least say and maybe this is unfair. At least Dupon has the protection of the United States government, right? He works for the Medicare office. He works for the federal government. Right? in order for Rufus to come after him, he would have to in some ways come after the federal government. Now, he could just like hire a person to kill him.
>> That's certainly a possibility, but like I think he's at least has some level of protection of the federal government.
And what he says to Rodri in this scene is like the amount of protection the federal government will give you is dependent entirely upon what you give it. Right? So again, he's taking a larger risk here. I just want to keep that clear. Now, he's gonna [ __ ] over Dupon and he's going to do it to get what he wants. That's going to happen.
We know that's going to happen. So, I'm again, I'm not arguing that Roger Gusher was an innocent person pushed into doing something he didn't want to do by Dupal.
But that doesn't mean that that August Dupal is like this perfect angel here.
>> Yeah. I think the the element to add in to to bring back what you said about um the confrontation with with his wife or the the questioning by his wife is you know this is really not about him doing the right thing.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> This is [laughter] Dupon has given him a excuse we could say to do something that is going to hurt this guy and he wants to hurt this guy for personal reasons.
>> Yeah. But this is not about, you know, ethics.
And ultimately when when he does screw over Tupon, it's going to be again for personal reasons. It it's been about personal reasons the whole time is the point. Yeah. Yep. I agree.
Um, excuse me. Uh, it's going to be it's going to be wild. But don't worry, he promises Annabelle that that this is just to do the right thing. He promises her. Yeah. And he's always honest as we know.
>> Yeah. I just want to say the scene we get of Rodri in the basement photocopying the documents is like the most Flanigan Fignari scene ever because it's just this static shot of a hallway as a janitor walks down it and it's so dark. [laughter] It's so wonderfully dark. All I was thinking about while watching the scene was you and thinking of our conversation with Mike and their love of of true darkness. Yeah. Because it is a pitch black scene where just a little tiny bit of light and even the scene where we go to Rodri in the room scanning the documents where the only source of light in that entire room is the photocopier itself as it shines up and it it it throws a shadow of Rodri as he kind of looms over it and he's lit from the front. It it makes for a very dramatic moment of him standing over this copier doing this event. I just it's it's really good stuff. It's really good stuff.
>> Yeah, I love that. I mean, I I was I was thinking about that as well, especially when when the janitor closes the door and we have a moment of just total darkness. Like there might be a line under the door or something, but ba basically total darkness and then Rodri turns the light on. I think I was slightly startled when he turned the light on, by the way. I thought [laughter] that was good.
>> Um >> it's great stuff. I I so just before we totally move away from the uh the scene with Dupon and him, you know, we've every episode we've had some amount of this particular scene and most of the time it's cutting between shots of the two men, right? Back and forth, back and forth.
>> And we talked a bit earlier about how maybe partly that was the practicality of having to replace the actor for for Rodri.
>> Yeah. But also, I think to some degree that's got to be the choice of of showing these people are at odds with each other where we're having them be this guy was over here, this guy's over here. It's always left and right, you know, it's always consistent.
U but then in the scene where they're talking about the the expedition and they're kind of joking around, it's one of the only times I can think of where the camera is back from them and you see them both in the same shot and the camera has this like kind of warmth and aliveness to it where I feel like it's even moving a bit.
And it's to me it's like, hey, you know, these are just two men sitting around having having drinks and sitting by the fire and hanging out. And um I I thought that was a >> a cool a cool cool way to cultivate that feeling.
>> No, I love that. I think that is in great contrast to the scene with the two of them at the beginning of the episode, um which we haven't really talked about yet, where that scene has a lot of like frantic cutting back and forth as they're talking, but it's it's a cutting back and forth of them both in profile.
So, it's just a one for each of them.
Um, and that is a great contrast in later scene where they they have that brief moment of bonding. I like that a lot.
>> Uh, I wanted to talk about something.
Thank you for reminding me in that initial scene and kind of throughout the the whole episode as I noticed it. So, they're both sitting in these chairs and we have a lot of shots of them in profile and they each have a um a gas lamp. I I I I don't know like if it's if it's a gas lamp. I don't know what it is, but it's over their shoulder. And the one over Dupon's shoulder is static.
It's just sitting there. The one over Rodri's shoulder is going like crazy.
It's like flashing. It's like blinking.
And And I honestly don't know if this was a prop defect or what. You know, it might have been one of those things where like it's the day of shooting. We got to shoot this scene. We're already running behind because we had to replace our principal actor 60% way into the production. We don't have time to fix this [ __ ] lamp.
um or it was just an intentional technique because what it does I think is is help represent the moods a little bit that that that Dupon is this stable still person and as we've seen with Roick throughout the course of the show so far he's getting more manic he's getting more intense kind of more crazy um and this this lamp like flickering constantly behind him just represents his mood and his tone and his whole his whole persona right now um so may maybe accident, maybe intentional intentional prop move. I have no idea, but I re it really stuck out to me in this this week's episode.
>> I'm just going to go with uh Yeah, that was they they turned they turned the gas down a bit so that it would flicker.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Sure.
>> Cool.
in that scene though. So, this is something that I forgot happened in the show and I kind of love that we did it because we have this moment where we we do our very first scene with Tammy and then we cut to Dupon going like, "I have a question for you. You're talking to me about all this stuff and in every single one of these scenes, the people are alone in their house. How could you possibly know this?" And it's it's a great question that I don't think we ever thought to ask, right? Because I think in >> the kind of standard >> structure of a story that's being told from one person to another is that like yes they are telling the story but maybe we're making like an assumption that they're telling like an a bridged version of the story and we the audience are getting to see the complete picture.
We're getting to see it all. But what this moment in this episode says is that no, every single thing that we have seen from the past has been Roger Usher relaying this to to August Dupon. And we've learned that the way he knows all this stuff happened is because these horrible ghosts of his children that have been haunting him since since they died uh are relaying that information to him. So, I think it's so funny that it's like that's a question that I wasn't really asking because I was just running with the basic assumption of like, yeah, he's like telling the story, but he's not like that's just like the framing device. He's not really like telling all of this. But no, he is.
>> Yeah. I mean, I think just like you said, we we assume that artistic license is being taken and then basically it's a reveal of like, oh no, every every detail of this is being communicated and it's because of the ghosts or the hallucinations. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And that that does transition nicely to the the the queen the pharaoh tuseret scene where he holds the sapphires up to his eyes. Matt >> um >> can I just say >> once again >> Bruce Greenwood [laughter] >> doesn't he just nail this? I [snorts] think he just nails this. Like it's perfectly like he has this >> power andight >> like very wellspoken charming nature to him as he's relaying this story about how he got these sapphires. But like you can see the edge of mania on it. I think part of it helps that his hair has like been stood straight up. But you can see like the mania on the edge of it. You can see how he's starting to lose it.
You can see all of that. And Greenwood does that perfectly. And I just once again like I cannot imagine anyone else in this role. And I have this really weird morbid curiosity to see >> whatever like unedited dailies they had of Franklin's performance because >> like I just can't imagine he like he I'm I'm he's he seems like a shitty person but is a fine actor. Like I've enjoyed him in the roles he've done. So like I'm not saying he would have done a bad job in this role. We'll never know. But like I look at stuff like that and I just like I can't see anyone doing it quite like Bruce Greenwood does it here.
>> Yeah. I mean, he really nails the the Edgar Allan Poe of it where it's, you know, like the character in the Telltale Heart where you you feel this deranged manic light in his eyes and you're right, even when he's being charming and grandiloquent, there's this offness to him. Um, it's Yeah, it's it's great. It's it's what you know or or or or or the the cask of a montiato like you feel like that that kind of like okay there's a there's a hidden danger there's there's a lurking danger to this person that they are barely hiding with a cultivated sense of um charisma >> and I I think he's nailing it. Yes, I I agree.
I also want to say the comparison of Queen Touseret to Meline was an interesting one because I looked up this this queen a little bit. Um, she did not have a good time. Matt, she took over uh I think the 19th dynasty.
I think she ruled for three years and then they killed her and she is the last of that that line of um of Egyptian pharaohs. Um, so you know, maybe not a great comparison or maybe a great comparison. I don't know. We'll see.
[laughter] Perhaps.
>> Yeah, I do like his line of, "I reached through time and plucked the eyes out of a goddess with my pocketbook and some patience. Does that make me a god?" No.
[ __ ] [ __ ] you. No, it doesn't make you a god.
You bought off some people to get some [ __ ] that was stolen from the place that it deserves to be. Congratulations. No, you're not a god.
>> That's great.
>> What is with these god complexes and these people? No, you just have a lot of money. That's it.
>> Well, his sister never wants to die.
I do I do wonder like not to not to defend billionaires or anything, but I I do wonder like how how [ __ ] up it is to just be in a place where like no one has any morals and you get to experience like the lack of morality in other people because you have the resources to just buy them off, right?
Like like you can you imagine what is life to go through life and just be like no one will stick to their principles because I have enough money to to overcome every principle every single person has. Right? Like even with with his speech about how he got these things he had to pay off 1 2 3 4 5 6 seven different organizations or whatever in order to just get this one birthday gift for his sister. And it's like, how how [ __ ] distorted of a of a a view of humanity do you have to be when you know for a fact because it has been every experience of your life so far that if I just if I do just throw enough money at a problem, >> ethics goes away. Morality goes away.
People bow down before the power of money. Um, that's got to [ __ ] you up.
That's got to turn you, Even if you didn't start that way, that does have to turn you into a terrible person eventually.
Yeah, I think it's just the generalized absolute power corrupts absolutely principle, which applies to politics just as well as >> as as great wealth, I think. Yeah. Like if if you if you have so much power, then >> you you like we're we're we're an animal that that thrives based on feedback, right? If you if you do a thing and you get negative feedback for it, then you stop doing that. If you do a thing and you get positive feedback, you do more of it. Yeah.
>> If you get positive feedback for all of your worst traits and you get no negative feedback, >> then you just inexurably become worse and and it's almost impossible to resist that, right?
>> Yep.
>> I I I just um you said 19th dynasty and I was like, how are there 19 dynasties?
And I was like, that's got to be like the last dynasty, right? And then I looked up when the 19th dynasty was and it was apparently the 1290 BC.
The >> Matt, you go through a lot of dynasties when you're like just killing rulers a lot, >> I guess. So, I mean, some of these dynasties are are relatively short, I guess, but some of them are are are longer. So, uh, so imagine imagine being in a place where they had that many dynasties.
[laughter] >> Can I tell you, can I tell you a thing I stumbled into? This is sort of a tangent. A thing I stumbled into when I was doing a little research on Tuserette. I found a Reddit post about this very episode of the show in which someone was complaining about the show because it was a woke show that is falling into the trap that women make good leaders.
>> Oh, [laughter] >> okay.
>> Because this guy goes on about how like every time an Egyptian got in control in Egypt, the whole dynasty crashed.
[laughter] >> Wow. That's like really really advanced misogyny.
>> It was incredible. I was like [laughter] and I I just I was like I was and I forget I forget what it said. Um who had it it used like TDS Trump derangement syndrome in it. I was like, "Oh, this is quality stuff here. This is quality trolling nonsense." And I think that the first comment I saw in response to this before I just closed this and moved on with my life was someone saying, "You don't know [ __ ] about Egypt. [laughter] >> [snorts] >> Oh, it was just delightful. It's just seeing seeing you got to stay off Reddit. I don't I need to stay off Reddit. But >> when I Google When I Google searching for two information and it pops up a Reddit thread, it's not my fault.
>> Yeah. I mean, sometimes it has good information.
>> Then sometimes someone complaining, [laughter] "Women don't make good leaders." See example, Tuserette of the 19th Egyptian dynasty who was overthrown and murdered.
Yeah, that's her fault. dropping dropping facts on us about [laughter] Yeah. Apparently the >> the woke the woke media wants you to think that the Egyptian women were good leaders, but actually >> the Jesus Christ >> the woke 19th dynasty. [laughter] Apparently the pyramids of Giza were 1500 years old during the 19th dynasty.
So >> Jesus Christ, >> history is too much. It's too much.
>> I agree.
And [laughter] it's all woke now.
>> Yeah, it's all woke.
>> Um, so can we kind of jumped past it, but I I would like to go back to the Tammy and Bill scene um and talk about that a little bit because I just like I feel so I feel so bad for Bill. I I feel so bad for for good old Bill T. He's trying so hard and he shows up because he heard that her sister died and he's just like, "Well, surely now she's not gonna kick me out. She needs someone and he wants to be there for her. And we see at the end of the episode after like everything goes to [ __ ] He's the only one that reaches out to her and he's desperately trying to call her and she just can't do it, man. She just can't do it. And even when she finally works up the courage to tell Bill how she feels, it's too late.
He's already gone.
>> Yeah.
>> And it makes me It makes me very sad.
Like this is I think Tammy Usher does kind of suck and she's cruel and mean to a lot of people. her husband like most of all. But it does it does very much feel like a tragedy to me too of this woman who comes so close so many times to like doing the right thing or like seeking comfort in the people that do love her and care about her. Um and she just she just can't do it. It's like whether she hates herself too much, she doesn't believe that she deserves that.
I think let's to to say it one thing that is very clear to me across every single one of these usher children we've seen now is none of them is capable of love and none of them understands what love is and it's because they've never gotten it never.
>> Yeah.
Yeah. We So um you you you remind me about the the role of Vera in this one.
Um, I don't know what exactly you said that that pinged this off on me, but anyway, like Vera is very much trying to talk her down at the end.
>> Mhm.
>> Similar to the way that she tried to give various characters kind of an out.
Almost every character, as we talked about, >> this one, I almost felt like there was a borderline desperation or like she actually cared. you could say.
>> She was she was like, "You really don't have to do this. No one's making you do this."
>> And I think the last thing she said was like, "This isn't about you." Which felt very cryptic. And I guess it's like, "Well, maybe it's about Rodri." But >> Mhm.
>> But but it's interesting cuz I was like, "Okay, so she's saying it's not about you, but Tammy is doing this all to herself 100%." Like she she is the one who is smashing these mirrors. No one else is is smashing mirrors.
>> Yeah. I mean, Vera is appearing in the mirrors, but you don't have to smash him.
>> So, um, it just seemed this seemed like one where it it seemed more I think it's because you said this is tragic. This one felt more tragic cuz even even Vera, who is our character who's the force of vengeance, is, you know, kind of pulling her punches kind of. I mean, and and then and then stuff like the um uh the uh the launch, right? We didn't really talk about the scene specifically, but the the scene of the launch, right? The scene of >> I was building up to it, but let's let's do it.
>> Yeah, this is a good time to do it, I think. So, the scene of the of the launch itself, um you could say that Vera kind of, you know, did this to her, but also you could say this is 100% just her insomnia hallucinations.
>> Yeah. And no one is doing anything to her. Now Verie is obviously there because Madeline sees her, >> but she's dressed differently.
She reacts differently, right? Like we have not seen Vera turned into spooky black dust before. That was new.
Correct.
>> So yeah, the the Vera that is there dressed in the same outfit that the Tammy's dressed in sitting in the audience, was that really Vera or is that Yeah. Just Tammy hallucinating um >> Yeah.
>> Candy the prostitute. Yeah, I I I think it's my my interpretation was when Tammy starts seeing uh the the you know video of of their sex capades showing up on on the monitors that that wasn't really happening. That that was all in her head because nobody really reacts to it.
>> Yeah. They don't react at all. They're all just like messing with their gold butt box and there's some very vulgar stuff on that thing that would make people look up. [laughter] >> Yeah. Right.
>> So she just appears to lose and start smashing stuff. Yeah. For example, lick her [ __ ] while she reads a book or answers some email. [laughter] >> Lick her [ __ ] while she reads a book or answers.
>> TURN IT OFF.
>> The things Mike Flanigan makes you say out loud. It's just great. Um, >> yeah. No, I I I I love this whole launch scene. It is extremely cringe from the beginning. I will say the the moment leading up to it before we actually get to the launch itself when we're with Meline and Tammy in like the the staging room ready to go on the stage like it's it's really like what what the she's the only one there to support her and it's like the worst possible person to be there to support her, [laughter] right?
Cuz like she says, "Where's my dad?
Where's Bill?" Like the fact that she's asking why Bill isn't there is hilarious. It's like cuz Tammy, you made very clear that you didn't want him there and you don't love him and you never loved him and you were just using him and this isn't his, it's yours now.
That's why he's not there. But she's still a little sad that he's not there and and of course Rodri isn't there as well cuz he's down in the basement being a bum. Um and and Meline is like the the [ __ ] worst person because she's like, "Oh, Tammy, I see that you're nervous.
Well, let me just make sure you understand how [ __ ] important this is. This is the most important thing.
Our company desperately needs this. You have to do a good job.
>> But don't be nervous.
>> Yeah.
>> Break both legs.
>> Something like something.
>> And then when she says, I miss him, right? She she admits to her her aunt, I miss Bill. I miss my husband.
>> And [laughter] Maline's response is >> whatever it is you think you miss, you can get it anywhere. promising that whatever it is.
>> Just thank thanks Maline. Thanks for that. We we actually learned Matt that Maline uh was married before. This is the first time we learned that.
>> Yeah.
>> That she was married at at some point and she enjoyed it. Um but then she ended the marriage cuz he wanted kids and she didn't want kids. And and um she describes getting over a love like that as a burp your heart goes through.
>> Mhm. Yeah.
>> So, again, not the best person to seek for relationship advice >> or or or a pep talk before a presentation. Really, just not the best person to seek for any reason.
>> Anyone any reason at all >> unless you need someone killed, I guess.
[laughter] >> You said uh she expects Bill to be there and that's ridiculous. And that is obviously ridiculous to us, but I'm just realizing like the sadness of this is in her mind it's like, well, but your loved one your your loved ones treat you like [ __ ] and you just take it and then you show up anyway because that's what family is. That's what love is in in her mind is is like the my dad can talk to me that way. Anybody else in my family can talk to me that way and I come back to them.
>> So why doesn't he come back to me?
>> Yeah. and doesn't realize like, "No, man, that's not like you can't actually say stuff like that to people."
>> Yeah.
>> And the sad part is if she picked up the phone and called him, he would be there in 10 seconds.
>> Yeah.
>> Like, you know, he's like sitting there ready to go, waiting, hoping >> that she'll call him.
>> Yeah.
>> Of course, she doesn't.
>> Um, so this is a pretty bad presentation, I would say.
>> Pretty bad. Does not go well. I I I want to make the argument though that even if she hadn't like gone crazy and thrown a mic stand at her mother-in-law >> or wait no stepmother sorry stepmother >> um I don't know if this presentation would have gone over like great anyway >> because I the argument I'm about to make to you Matt is the presentation kind of sucks >> irregardless of the things that go wrong >> I think these PowerPoint slides are terrible. [laughter] I think it just like they just got word.
It's just like Tammy awkwardly standing there holding the box and they've got word like curated luxury customuilt boxes, life-changing product. Like none of these words mean anything actually.
>> Yeah. I mean, they're kind they're the kind of emptiness you expect from a lot of marketing really, but yeah, they're they're very they're very generic, right? I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm I think there's a way to do marketing correctly. I'll say it I'll say it that way. And this is just very boring. And um and also she's like >> it feels like her apartment. Like even the design of the PowerPoint slides, the design of all of it just seems very plain and safe and and dull.
>> Yeah. I also feel like if Samantha Sloan wanted to give a PowerPoint presentation in a way that was extremely compelling and charismatic, she could do that.
>> Yeah. Let me let me be clear. If Samantha Syan like called me on the phone tomorrow and said, "I want you to spend $10,000 on this box," I would do it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So So the point is she she's performing a character who's doing a bad job at giving a presentation, right? She's she's she's clearly nervous. She's >> um I mean she's obviously stumbling over her words in many places. She's seeing stuff that totally distracts her and makes her >> have a really weird expression on her face. Uh so like Yeah. No, it's it's it's actually I was cringing so hard.
This is one of those like cringe cringe I can't even really look at the screen uh uh type type situations.
>> Um >> it's great.
>> I think another point about the presentation that we need to mention is that it was written for Bill to be the one doing it, right? Um, and so she's rehearsed, she's worked so long and hard on it. And by worked, I mean she had a laptop open with paper spread around her. Um, she's worked so hard on it that she has the presentation memorized even though she is the one giving it now. And so there's these moments in there that don't make any sense for her to be saying the things because it was meant to be Bill saying it. Like like the the moment where she says, you know, I've been taking this and I I both look and feel 10 years younger. She trips on that because she looks like [ __ ] because she hasn't been sleeping. And and to be clear, she looks like [ __ ] in like the Hollywood way of look like [ __ ] where like Samantha Slayan is a very beautiful woman and they've maybe put a little bit of makeup on her to make her look a little tired, but that still her she it comes through.
>> They've made her hair look a little wild. Yeah.
>> Yeah. [laughter] But like she has to change that in the moment. There was also a moment that like goes unremarked upon, but I think was another like remnant of this is supposed to be a presentation that Bill and maybe Tammy together are giving. Um, there's this moment where she says, "Look under your seats and find out what we have >> built for you." And she even like still does the thing where she pauses and emphasizes the built >> like built like built builty.
>> Yeah. And it's like, oh, that would have like killed if it was if it was Bill T saying that.
>> Can I just didn't I just put together like, do you think this episode is kind of a black swan homage in some ways?
[laughter] >> Cuz like we have the motif of her seeing her doppelganger in the mirrors.
>> Mhm.
>> And then we have the idea of like this all culminates in a grand presentation in front of everyone that we're, you know, and and but it's a disaster actually. Um Yeah.
Wait, are you trying to say that the performance at the end of Black Swan wasn't a perfect performance?
>> Well, it was a it was a great performance, but there were some problems. I >> mean, she died. Oh, sorry. Spoilers.
>> Spoilers for Black Swan. No, I could I could see that as being a a source of inspiration for kind of the look and how everything plays out.
>> Yeah. Well, the the you know, doppelgangers and mirrors thing was definitely a thing I was thinking about and and Black Swan and the creepiness of Mirrors there obviously.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um this is a kind of a great way to talk about Juno a little bit because Juno Usher gets a lot in this episode. Um, and the reason why I'm I'm using this as a transition point is because Juno Washer is the only human being that came to this thing just just simply to support her family members.
>> That's what she's there for.
>> That's it. the the the comedic cruelty of of throwing the mic stand at her just >> well and the whole thing is is like the the place that Vera has selected to appear is right behind where Juno is sitting. So every time she pauses and glares every time she says something every time she does something everyone including Juno thinks it's being done to her. Yeah. Um, that's why when she looks at the box under her seat, she turns to the guy next to her, who I'm not clear if she knows or not and says, "There's probably going to be poo in mind."
>> I think she doesn't. [laughter] I think she's just uh just just wants to talk to somebody, honestly. She probably doesn't know anybody here at all.
>> I I feel so bad for this poor character.
And this is one thing that I think the show does. It's so many great scenes in this episode. We've been bouncing all over the place, but let's make sure we hit this. Juno waking up alone in her bed because Rodri has spent the night at the office >> walking around this huge canaverous house like but I mean and I think by the way I said cana cavernous um I I I think by the way we are echoing I me saying using that word again reminded me of that we are echoing Juno's experience and Tammy's experience right like these are two women that are actually going through a very similar thing in that they are desperate for the love of this man >> who doesn't actually give a [ __ ] about them um and are are seeking him out and looking for him and unable to find him and and >> Tammy thought like and she's also looking for Bill as well like that that that is there but they're they're very similar in these in these moments and >> and then we get that wonderful scene where they bump into each other [music] and Juno kind of opens up to her and and like Tammy has been so mean to Juno throughout the course of the show, right? The the why is it talking? It really shouldn't be talking line is just so incredibly cruel. But then we get this moment of Juno >> opening up to her and being like, >> you know, all these terrible tragedies are happening and like I thought this would be finally get Roger to come closer to me and it's done the exact opposite. He's never been further away.
And then she talks about how she when she joined this family she was so excited cuz she never had a family.
She's never had a place to belong. She's never had a group and and this family is so big that oh, I'm so excited to be part of that. But >> everyone excluded her and she's all alone and even Tammy in this moment >> feels for her part of something. You know, >> of course, she can't do anything about it. Like the most the most she does is be like, "I'm sorry about him not answering your phone call." He does that to everyone. It's not just you. But there's a moment there right before she leaves where the camera just sits on Tammy for like eight seconds and it's just sitting on her and we get to see Samantha Syian do her thing where her face makes like 13,000 different emotions over the course of like 8 seconds. And some of them are her desperately trying to force herself to maybe say something of kindness and compassion to this woman who is so desperate for a place to belong. To say something, to say anything, to say, "Hey, me too." To say, "I feel like you feel." To say, "Hey, maybe we should support each other. These two women in this Usher family surrounded by these men who do not give a [ __ ] about us.
There's commonality there. We're both going through similar things. Maybe we could support each other in that." And she can't do it. Of course she can't do it. But [ __ ] man.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it was an important humanizing moment for for Tammy here because, yeah, like you said, she's been uniquely cruel to Juno.
>> And her being even just passibly human for a moment is actually remarkable.
Um, >> it's one of the one of the few times when you feel like maybe the character just almost gets it, but it's it's too late. It's too late.
>> Yeah.
>> I also find something so incredibly tragic to the idea that Juno is this this woman so desperately looking for someplace to belong that she looks at the Usher family and says, "Man, I wish I was part of that group." because that group is filled with people that are [ __ ] terrible to each other. They they spar with each other. They manipulate each other. They treat each other like [ __ ] They are awful to each other. And Juno still is so desperate for a place that she's like, "Yeah, I kind of want that though. I wish I wish I was part of that. I wish I was part of that group.
They still exclude me no matter what."
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and they all Well, and also, you know, they do they do their best to exclude each other, right?
I mean, the the the the >> the trueborn children >> ostracize the bastards. The bastards have their own hierarchy.
>> Mhm.
>> I'm using Game of Thrones terms because I don't know what other words to use.
Sorry.
>> It's fine. It's fine. Um, one other thing I wanted to connect with the scene, like a visual thing we do both with Tammy and with Juno, is we we several times throughout this episode conclude scenes on this wide shot that has one of these women sitting by themselves in this empty space. And we hold on that shot for a very long time.
And then we actually do a J cut where we have the the dialogue from the next scene bleed into this scene. And I think that's just like an excuse to hold on the shot just a little bit longer to really emphasize how alone these women feel, how separated and apart from everything they feel that we just like it happens I think three or four times in the episode. We just have this wide of them very small and tiny and alone in the frame. Um it's sad. It's very sad.
>> Yeah.
>> But Tammy's dead.
>> Tammy's dead.
She got guillotined by a shard of mirror.
>> Yep.
>> This kids is why you don't have freaky sex mirrors on your >> That's right.
>> on your ceiling.
>> She got stabbed. I I love that we got the extra shot of her getting stabbed in the back with the other shard of glass before the before before the other one hit her in the neck. So, >> yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. You loved that.
>> I love that. I like to think that. Yeah.
[laughter] I do just want to say we talked about the end where she's where Carloino is desperately telling her um >> you know call Bill call Bill you owe it to him to tell him you're sorry and you shouldn't have treated him that way and then she says the phrase man ate a lot of ass on your behalf which is like only Mike Flanigan >> only with Mike Flanigan could you tune in to hear Carlo Gino say the phrase man ate a lot of ass on your behalf. Uh-huh.
>> Wonderful. Just wonderful.
>> It is.
>> It's a It's a gift. It's a gift to the world. [laughter] >> I think we have to talk about Frederick though, Matt. We haven't actually talked about what Frederick does in this episode. We kind of talked around it a bit.
>> He's just taking care of his wife.
>> Oh, yeah. You don't need doctors. The best person to take care of her is us, right?
>> Yeah. They'll come if they're needed.
>> [laughter] >> He's terrifying. He's absolutely terrifying in this episode.
>> Yes. His being suddenly terrifying is a great a great surprise, great twist. Um >> just shows to go you >> shows to go you.
>> But it just shows to go you. I so >> for for those that maybe have forgot >> um Joe Collie in Midnight Mass says that line and I when that happened I think for five minutes in the episode I I hijacked the entire episode to be like I swear to God I've heard a Mike Flanigan character say that line before and I can't remember where it is. I found it just a few months later I found it.
>> Yeah, we we found it. [laughter] Joe Stgo.
>> I think I read somewhere that's just like he heard it in a movie somewhere and it's just a line he really likes.
And it is interesting in the Joe Collie version of it. It was not to be read as sinister, right? It was just kind of this a shucks guy. But when Henry Thomas gets his hands on the line, it shows to go you it becomes the most sinister like manic possible thing to say in the moment.
>> Yeah, I I I agree. It's it's fun to use it in very different tones. Yes.
Yeah.
>> So, he's he's drugging his wife, Matt.
How do you feel about this?
>> Oh, I feel bad. [laughter] >> What's the point?
>> Cuz if you're talking, >> he's drugging her. I mean, what's even wor like somehow it's worse to me that like he obviously plans on >> sort of paralyzing her so that he can torture her.
>> Mhm.
>> But we don't know how yet, >> which is worse for me. It's worse that I'm going to have to go a whole week.
Well, I went the whole week already um not knowing what he's gonna do to her >> and uh uh like just leaving to her imagination much like I guess it's left to her imagination.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and she is capable of speech now, but he's not listening to anything she's saying even though she's kind of trying to explain herself.
>> Yeah. like he's he was so desperate to find out what she was doing and why she was there and and and by the time she's actually capable of answering those questions, he's so far gone that he's not even actually interested to hear those. Like, why? Why? There's no point in you opening your mouth cuz all that's going to come out are lies. He's gone so insane. Uh the cocaine is not helping.
He's continuing to to snort the cocaine.
Not helping in this at all. But yeah, he's using the Nightshade that um that was given to Vic to paralyze their monkeys. Um which is not an approved narcotic and it is working to completely paralyze uh poor um why do I keep forgetting her name? Um Mela Usher. Poor Mela Usher.
But a paralytic that also allows you to remain completely conscious during the entire thing. So you get to observe and watch and it's very important to him that she gets to see him during all of this.
I I will remind you that there's the scene in the previous episode where he brings some flowers and she brings like an actual plant.
Lenor brings an actual plant and Lenor says something the effect of like I think it's something the effect of like it's like I don't think a person in this condition would like want to just sit there and watch flowers die. Um, so now that's that's what that's what Frederick is doing. He's just going to sit and watch her die, torture her. She's a flower.
>> That's the plan anyway.
>> Yeah, >> we'll see how that works out for him.
>> I mean, let's just say the the name of the next episode is The Pit and the Pendulum. So, I'm sure it's going to be fine, Matt.
>> Yeah. Everyone involved is going to have a great time.
>> We I it is really interesting to see Lenor kind of at the center of this. You know, this this character who I think you clocked immediately in the first episode is is out of all the ushers is the one that just seems like the mo the just [snorts] the best. She's good.
>> Um we we do get like several recurring beats where she's like kind of constantly like asking questions of like, "Hey, are we okay? Are you okay?"
Mhm.
>> Is everything okay? And like she's just getting like just placated again and again. It's like, no, you're fine.
You're fine. And I think what the really interesting is that she seems she's worried about her dad. She's worried about her mom. She's worried about her grandfather after she comes and visits him. She's actually shown very little specific concern for herself. Like I'm sure that's there, but like it is funny watching every usher she goes to and talks about this just reassures her that no, you will be safe because to the ushers, selfishness is the name of the game, right? Like all you care about is yourself. So if someone is coming to me saying they're concerned, you're going to be fine. Don't worry about it. You are going to be fine.
>> That's not what she's worried about.
She's worried about everyone else >> and no one is listening to her.
>> Yeah. And she's one of the only ones who's perceptive enough to see that the ushers are being bumped off.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, she doesn't know that it's supernatural. And >> yeah, >> it's sort of the innocence of a child thing.
>> Or maybe it's her psychic powers.
>> Yeah.
>> Um >> what? Huh? [laughter] >> It's Abra.
>> That's Matt. It's Lenor.
>> Oh, sorry.
Um she's she's that strong, Scott. She's that strong.
She can operate between properties.
>> That would be very powerful. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Um I mean, so I feel like maybe she'll be more active in in how this unfolds with her dad dying specifically is what I mean by this. Like cuz he's going to die. We know that already.
>> But like is it because of some action that she takes? Um cuz that would be kind of even more horrible in a way.
Like maybe she intervenes to save her mom somehow and that causes her dad to die.
>> H yeah. Okay. I don't know. I I do like there's there's a couple moments that I really loved with her. Like so when she when they first learn about Victorine's death and Frederick is trying to explain why it happened and he basically says something the effect of like >> well your your aunt was a very ambitious woman so something like this was bound to happen. And Lenor gives this like incredulous look of like what the [ __ ] are you [laughter] talking about to her dad?
>> What does that mean?
>> So good.
>> Cuz what does that mean? That doesn't mean anything. Well, you know, she was very ambitious. So, you know, this is just what happens to women when they're ambitious. They kill themselves and their lover. Um, yeah, >> sure.
>> And she says, uh, I I love that his phrasing. I think he says like none of them were right.
>> Yeah.
which is interesting because he's definitely not right, you know?
>> He's just vague enough to be creepy.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A very po choice of words.
>> Yeah.
And and she like she gets snapped at, right? He confronts her while he's back to bowling on his shitty little bowling alley. Um, which no human being has ever celebrated a spare as much as as much as Freder celebrates picking up that spare >> while his wife is lying suffering in the other room.
>> Yeah. No, no onlookers. Just total to totally privately celebrating the spare.
Yeah.
>> Wearing full biz casual. I just like he's like I understand bowling is not like the most strenuous activity, but like I don't know. I've gone bowling in business casual before because it was like a happy hour thing after work. It's not as fun to be in slacks and a button-down while bowling. I would prefer to be in like looser nice like more casual fitting clothing. He's at his home. He can change [ __ ] weirdo.
>> Yeah, >> this is the worst thing he does is wear business casual while bowling in his home bowling alley.
>> This bothers you a lot. I know. next to the kitchen for some [ __ ] up reason.
>> Remember when you were like [laughter] >> next to the kitchen because he loves being with his family?
>> Everything about this character is so wholesome. Look, [laughter] I I mean the >> we saw some hints of it, but I don't think the coke is helping. You know, >> I don't think I don't think the guy I don't think the guy knows how to handle his cocaine.
I I I think one of the things that we kind of tossed around in earlier episode was the idea that to Frederick showing himself as being the perfect family man is like part of it is part of what he thinks is going to make him his dad like love him. Like I mean literally every time Roger Gusher sees Lenor he says, "Oh, it's my favorite."
Right? Mhm.
>> And so it is clear that Roger Usher for whatever reason doesn't give a [ __ ] about his kids but is really invested in his granddaughter.
>> Mhm.
>> Um and so just Frederick probably responds to that in a way. It's like, "Oh, I have to be the perfect dad." And so he was keeping up appearances of being the perfect dad.
We make ships and bottles together. And I I don't go out bowling on a Wednesday night. I bowl right here in the house.
[laughter] Yeah, I wouldn't stray. Like my wife.
>> Yeah, like my damn wife who didn't do anything wrong.
>> I mean, there's an interesting um Oh, yeah. I mean, let's let's take that slightly more seriously for a second. Like, he he he puts a lot of energy into this facade of we are this perfect happy family. Look at me in my bowling alley. And then his wife, you know, shatters this image that he has put all this energy into crafting.
>> It's the same theme with with several of of ushered children, his image.
>> Yeah.
>> And and he's like like I gave you everything and I set all this up to and like you've ruined you've ruined this picture that that we that we this this facade that we had built. And that's really the crime I think.
>> Yeah, I like that. the idea that like, you know, we know Roger Gusher has Annabelle Lee and has kind of put her on a pedestal, right, of you know, he had never married again until Juno. Um, this is this the first original wife and mother.
And I wonder if Frederick is chasing his version of that is like I've I am trying to be just like my dad. I'm trying to follow in my dad's footsteps in every single way. And one of that ways is I'm going to find a woman and and fall in love with her and we're going to create this perfect family unit just like my dad did. Only I'm going to surpass him in that because I'm going to I'm going to do it successfully. Like we know we don't we still don't know what happened to Annabelle Lee, but we know that it's not around anymore. And yeah, that throws his fragile ego into into complete disarray because she's not the perfect woman. She's not his Annabelle Lee. Um she's someone else.
>> Yeah.
Cool.
>> I can't get over I'm just realizing that like Mela and Annabelle [laughter] kind of kind of close together sort of >> not really. I'm trying here, Matt.
>> Yeah, I see what you're going for.
>> Yeah.
Um I think those are all the big things I wanted to talk about, Matt. Uh this is a very stuffed episode. Lots going on here. I think we I think we hit all of it pretty good. Um, >> I think so. It was We We spent a lot of time talking about >> Was that Jesus Christ, >> are you okay?
>> I think uh >> Are you haunted?
>> I think I'm haunted by a certain device that's in my other room that scared the absolute [ __ ] out of me just now.
[laughter] Um, >> yes. Let me get control over my heart rate for a moment. Um, [laughter] yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah. No, I think I think I had all the major points. We kind of uh uh uh meandered around a bit in some places. I I think with intention though, we were following certain thematic lines.
>> Mhm. Um I one thing I did want to make sure we hit was just some fun stuff where Mela and Lenor are watching a movie on the TV and it is a movie featuring a pendulum. Um so some people I think have attributed this to the 1961 film The Pit and the Pendulum. It's not though. It's a 1935 film called The Raven. Um, which is a movie that I I believe that was um, oh gosh, who was in that one? Um, I think it's Bella Losce.
Yeah, it's Bellagosi and Boris Carlo were in this movie. Um, it borrows a lot of post stuff from post stories, including uh, a pendulum from the pin the pendulum. So, it's a little bit of ominous foreshadowing there, Matt. It's ominous, but we do in the scene the man the man who is being pendulum gets saved at the last second. So >> yeah. Well, just like the the pendulum, which is exactly how it's going to work for I mean for Freddy, right?
>> Well, my assumption is he's going to try to pendulum his wife and then he's going to get pendulummed by the pendulum accidentally.
>> Yeah, >> that's fair.
I also want to say, I don't know if you noticed this, but as they finish up watching The Raven, they are scrolling through Netflix to pick another film and they scroll by a little movie called Gerald's Game.
>> I did.
>> Um, which causes my brain to explode and be like, "But what if they clicked play on that >> and [laughter] then their father was there?"
>> Yeah.
>> Being a [ __ ] creep.
>> Yeah.
>> How would they They click play and Franklin Jello is this is character. Um [laughter] um >> [ __ ] got him.
>> You know, I I I think there's another maybe I'm reaching a little bit here, but that is a movie about a woman being chained to a bed, >> uh which is what's happening to um [clears throat] the the the mom.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Mela. Yeah. I mean, let's just say like there's a lot of um there's a lot of Mike Flanigan things on Netflix that they could have picked for that moment and they picked the one that is >> fitting for the perfect reasons.
>> Yeah, I love that.
>> Yeah.
>> And um I mean there's some there's some other poems quoted in this that we didn't necessarily talk about. Um Usher, Roger Gusher quotes um >> dream within a dream >> is but a dream >> which is a beautiful poem >> within a dream.
>> Uh all all that we see or all that we seem is but and is nothing but a dream within a dream. Uh which is a great poem. And then he also quotes um a a poem called a short story called Eleanor where he says those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night.
Um, and then later Meline quotes that same short story when she's talking about whether or not she's insane or not. Um, I'm scrolling to see because I wrote that down and I'm scrolling to see where it is. But, um, >> maybe men have called me mad.
>> Basically, >> but the question is not yet settled as to whe madness is or is not the loftiest intelligence. M men have called me mad, but the question is not yet settled as to whether madness is or is not the loftiest intelligence. Um, that was the one moment. So, like [laughter] I think Rodri like making up poetry is like a Rodri thing to do, right? We've seen him do that in the past. Roger doing it in the present I think shows a a certain connection to that version of himself that we haven't seen in a while.
There was a moment where I was like, why did Meline just say that? [laughter] You know, >> I guess megalomaniacal, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, it's not it doesn't really strike you as poetry when you just say it like that.
>> Well, that I mean that that quote is not from a poem. It's from a short story.
So, yeah. I think it's also weird, and I don't know if this is like a Netflix mistake or something, but when a person says a quote in subtitles, it will usually italicize the subtitle to like show visually that this is not a person just speaking dialogue, but a person quoting something. And it did that when Rodri both quoted Dream Within a Dream and when he did his quote from Eleanor.
And it did it again when Meline did it here. And I'm like, is she is are we to understand specifically that she is quoting something or not?
>> Maybe she's quoting Eden Poe. Man, I don't know. I mean, >> this this to be clear, this doesn't matter. Like, this doesn't matter. But it just made me curious. I mean, I wonder like we're assuming that we're meant to interpret that he's making up a poem about Annabelle Lee, but it could just be that he knows the poem [snorts] Annabelle Lee from Edgar Alan Poe and then he married a woman named Annabelle Lee and so he sometimes quotes the poem at her, right? Like these could >> So what you were positing is that in the universe of the show, Edgar Alan Poe existed and wrote all of his works.
>> Yes. and and that and that uh Rodrik Usher finds it very amusing and this is why everyone keeps naming his kids after Po characters is because they're like he likes Po. Don't don't say that this is why we did it but we're going to name everybody after Po characters. Is it really weird that we got this lawyer named Arthur Gordon Py and he also went to the North Pole just like in that story written by Edgar Allen Poe?
>> It is weird.
>> No, I'm not saying it's not weird. Has anyone noticed that all of my children are dying? Kind of similar to poster. I mean, not exactly, but kind of similar.
>> I mean, it would be funny if that was the twist in the next episode, as is if they were just like, did you know [laughter] that this is all based on an Edgar Allan Poe story collection?
Like, well, we we knew that. I mean, I knew that.
>> You weren't supposed to figure that out.
The characters have like a stupid like five minute Reddit argument about what adaptation verse inspired by means.
>> And they're like, "Who do you think is directing us?" [laughter] >> That's how we get to the Dark Tower.
[laughter] >> It's great. [snorts] Uh, okay. That's that's what I wanted to do. Um, I I I actually one more thing. The very end of the episode is Tammy sitting on the bed.
saying, "I [ __ ] it all up."
>> Yeah, >> I [ __ ] it all up and I just want to sleep.
>> I [ __ ] it all up.
>> Vera finishes and that's when she looks up and hits the mirror and killed herself. But >> I [ __ ] it all up. I just >> I just Isn't that a moment of like maybe the first time in all five of these character deaths that a character has a moment of clarity at the end? Because I think there's a read of that like I was I was sometimes I like to read what other people think of these episodes before we sit down and record because I'm just curious. So, I just like could go through the internet and see like there are sites out there that do like episode recaps and I like to read them and I was reading one that said and this shows that even at the end Tammy is still just thinking about how she messed up the gold bug presentation and I was like no I don't I don't think that's what I [ __ ] it all up means at at the very end there. I think she's talking about everything. Her life, her relationship with Bill, the choices that she's made, the things that she's done.
I don't think it's as simple as that one thing. It's everything. She's looking at her life and she's just saying, "I [ __ ] it all up." And that is a moment of recognition at the end. That is a moment of realization at the end that none of the other characters I think have fully had.
>> Yeah, I I agree. I mean, I just feel like she had a different level of um tragedy to her to her death than they did.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I I think you're right.
>> Yeah. Tammy Usher, great person.
>> Yeah, we'll miss her. Would you would you get a gold bug box if we decided to to shift our entire merch operation into getting very personalized gold bug boxes for everyone? You think we would have a hit on our hands with that?
>> I'm sure we would. You know, you can get a whole um a whole half ounce of of uh uh uh black truffle eye cream for the low low price of $320.
>> Wow. I just I just found this online. I I went through a bit of a black truffle face cream rabbit hole while we were talking, just so you know.
>> Cool.
>> I I like I like that Google these days, if you search like black diamond truffle extract, the first two pages are just basically ads, but not revealing themselves to be.
>> It's just the internet these days, man.
It's great.
>> It's a shame. It's what Al Gore envisioned when he invented it.
>> And and like if you wanted to set out to be like, can we find out that like does this do anything at all? Yeah.
>> You you could not find that out on any anymore.
>> Well, I bet you if I Google uh does black diamond truffle oil work, Google Gemini would be happy to give me a terribly incorrect answer.
>> I think you're right.
Are you testing it right now?
>> [laughter] >> Uh, it works by boosting cellular energy and defending the skin against environmental stressors like UV damage.
>> So, it's sunscreen. [laughter] >> Yeah. Anything that says boosting cellular energy is >> I mean >> it is snake oil. Yes.
>> It's It's like expensive sunscreen. It protects you from UV light.
That's not even why you're Okay, never mind. Never mind. We're not We're not doing the light. Yeah, like >> not going there.
>> How much is a goop? Does Goop sell boxes? Goop box. This is great podcast content.
>> This is good.
>> Curated gift boxes, starter sets, and DIY kits for every type of person.
The Goop Home Wellness Box is only $265.
>> Okay, that's not it's not bad. And I I bet you it's not as personalized as the gold boat box.
>> I I found another sort of thing, not Goop, for $1,700.
>> Oh, >> so that's nice.
>> What's that called?
>> You know, I I I don't want to get sued.
>> No free ads. No free ads.
>> Yeah. I don't want to get sued, so I'm I'm not going to not going to mention it. I am [clears throat] constantly struggling with my great love and respect for Gwennneth Paltro as an actress. Um, and as the namesake of our company, [laughter] but also this wellness box is ridiculous.
Oh, and the I can't even buy it anymore.
That link leads to an empty page. The goop box is dead.
>> That's a shame. [laughter] >> Okay, let's Please don't sue us, Goop.
Yeah.
>> I loved Shakespeare in love.
>> Yeah, I love Seven.
[laughter] >> [ __ ] >> All right, >> I think that's going to do it for episode six. Gold bug. Perfect way to end it. I love seven. [laughter] Um, all right. Discussion question from last week was, uh, what's your favorite killer cat?
Uh, Baby Ky Digger Sam says, "Stephen King's Sleepwalkers is a batshit crazy movie that focuses on a pair of incestuous shape-shifting felines who survive on the blood of female virgins.
Ironically, the one thing that hurts these creatures is a house cat." And in this film, that cat is Clovis, a house cat who knows what's up and these creatures with these creatures and is the true action hero of the film. In addition to protecting our heroine, he also rallies all the neighborhood casts to attack the sleepwalker's lair. This movie is also special because of the myriad of cameos. Joe Dante, Toby Hooper, Clive Barker, John Landis, Ron Pearlman, and Usher's own Py. Yes, Mark Hamill shows up in this movie.
>> Cool. Kind of reminds me of the cat in that other King Collection movie.
>> What would that be called?
>> We we we watched it for a >> Yeah, I'm [ __ ] with you. It's called Cat's Eye.
>> Cat's Eye.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, I knew that.
>> Drew Barrymore in it.
>> Yep. And it had a creepy little goblin.
I loved it.
>> Yeah, that cat [ __ ] that goblin up.
>> It's great. [laughter] >> Saved Drew Barrymore.
>> Yep.
Uh Per Jane says, "You said killer cat and I immediately remembered every word to a delightful song we sang in middle school choir called The Cat Came Back.
It had good harmonies, which is maybe why Miss Cinco had us sing it so often.
But the last version is just creepy as [ __ ] The man round the corner said he'd shoot the cat on site. He loaded up his gun with nails and dynamite. He waited and he waited for the cat to come around. 97 pieces of the man was all they found. All they found all around the ground. It's the baritone all around the ground that really gets me. Maybe Flanigan had to sing it in school, too.
I weirdly remember singing this song in theater class. I don't know why. I don't remember a part where a guy blows himself up with his gun.
>> I don't remember that either.
>> If you're going to stick dynamite in your gun, you probably deserve to be blown up. I >> I just remember my favorite part of the song is like the end where something happens where you're like, "The cat's got to be dead now." And then like there's a pause and then it goes and the cat came back and it's it's great. Look, great song. Great song.
I agree. All right. Catch a breed says what? Joe, [laughter] >> there's a lot of accents on this thing.
>> I'm just going to say I'm just going to say it American wise. Jolo Joel or Yolotor, something like that. Is the epitome of not just killer cat stories, but any Christmas tradition ever. Uleat, which is what? Yulotor. Okay. Probably like >> u maybe next time lead with u catat.
>> Ule cat uh translates to is a massive cat that roams the Icelandic countryside during the Christmas season and eats people specifically children who aren't wearing new clothes that they received.
Good kitty. Bonus favorite is Ghost Cats of the South, which is a collection of stories about cats who are ghosts. Not all of them. One smells like soup and guides lost musicians to safety, but still valid. Yeah. See, I love I love traditions that are just like, "Do what I told you to, child, and then [laughter] or you will be eaten by the blank."
>> The ule cat. Yeah, >> the old cat.
>> Yeah.
>> I feel like I feel like we lost something when we transitioned the punishment from um just getting cold in your stocking, >> which you know, at some point was like a good gift that would heat your home.
Yeah. I always give my children cool when they're stalking.
>> I'm going to tell my son he's got a behavior that cat's going to get him.
>> Yeah. And and put on his new clothes. My children never want to put on their new clothes. I should tell them about the old cat. I mean, they're >> [ __ ] kids.
>> They're all quite old now, but I could still tell them.
>> Just do it. Let me know how that goes.
>> Uh Sandy Bone says, "His fangs are sharp. He likes your taste. Your party better move post haste. This kitty didn't get to kill anyone, but he sure tried his damnedest. I am of course referring to the lion in Jumanji. The slow rolled reve reveal is such a wellexecuted frightening scene. It starts with seeing the tail hitting the high notes of the piano with the shadow of the lion in the background. Then his huge paws strike the low keys as he descends. You hear his low, guttural growl from the darkness as he slowly steps into the light, revealing his face of this absolute terror. The animatronics and puppetry that brought this creation to life are phenomenal.
That is the coolest cat in any movie ever. And my love of practical effects did definitely doesn't make me biased.
Hold on.
You telling me you you going to sit here and tell me that the lion and Jumanji was not CG?
Um, it's I think maybe it had some CG parts, but I'm, you know, I just looked up the images while you're talking and looks pretty dang practical. Um, a lot of it is like sitting on things just being, you know, terrifying.
>> I I buy it.
>> It's a great It's >> incredible.
>> It's a great design. I mean, yeah, it looks it looks pretty It looks pretty uh practical now that I look at it.
>> Um, that's awesome.
>> I just assumed it was a real lion.
Well, I knew it wasn't a real lion, but it's a great It's a great looking terrifying lion.
[laughter] >> Sometimes you're such an [ __ ] I mean, I I I knew it wasn't a real lion.
>> Oh, [clears throat and snorts] I was I may have been a child, but I wasn't a stupid child. [laughter] >> Look, it's been a long time since I've seen this movie. I know if I'm remembering the correct thing.
>> You should show your kids and scare the hell out of them.
>> Mhm. Maybe this will eliminate me from ever needing to play board games again.
>> It's a good idea. It's a good idea. All right. Hobo Demon said, "Um, I'm between two cats. On the one hand, the cat from Trimmers is solid and reliable and can pull damn near anything, but when faced with unusual terrain features, it does not do the one thing cats are supposed to be good at and instead flips over like buttered toast. In contrast, the catinary power the catinary wires powering the trolley cars in the public transportation system of who framed Roger Rabbit are too good for legally distinct from modern uh from Robert Moses to allow to exist. And that's an example of being able to judge a character by the quality of their antagonists, if I've ever heard of one.
Noteworthy third place is a tie between every cat in Roar, the 1981 film in which Tepe Hedin did the classic PTSD thing of creating the circumstances of her trauma from the production of the birds and shows more fear at sudden movements from a random sparrow than from the presence of a wildly irresponsible number of big cats.
I feel like I never saw Roar, but I think I saw a documentary at FantasticFest about Roar. And it's like crazy that like, you know how I was joking around about how they had a real lion on the set of Jumanji?
>> Uhhuh.
>> Well, that was a movie in which they just used lions and like a bunch of people got hurt cuz they're [ __ ] giant cats with sharp claws.
This crazy [ __ ] man. You should look it up. It's just insane.
Yeah.
[laughter] I went to the zoo the other day and turned my back to the tigers to see if they would try to kill me.
>> Did they?
>> They did not.
>> It's disappointing.
>> Yeah.
[snorts] All right. Um, I'll go through the rest of these answers real quick.
Aqua Lungfish said, "The film Unveiled featuring a cat that vomits up smaller monster cat puppet to kill people." That sounds Sorry, uninvited. My eyes just completely The the film was uninvited. I don't know what. Anyway, uninvited is the movie. Thank you. Uh, House of Seven Paws says, "Uh, the Hong Kong film The Cat featuring Space Cat with martial arts with martial arts skills in in a kung fu fight against the dog." That sounds fun. DJ Devel says, "Dr. Claw's Mad Cat from Inspector Gadget. Never seen killing anybody. It clearly has blood on its mind. It always kind of felt like the cat was really the brains behind that operation."
>> [laughter] >> Uh, Apocalypse Win7 says, "Cat people featuring a woman who transforms into a deadly panther when aroused."
Cool.
For posting cats is literally the name of this account. For posting cats says, "Eye of the cat about a gang of cats sending a wheelchair down San Francisco Hill." Uh, and then they also of course add Michelle Michelle Fefeifer as Catwoman, which is the correct answer that we were waiting for this whole time.
>> Uh, The Man in Black 19 says, "Scar from The Lion King as a manipulative killer cat with a high direct body count." Uh, okay. Row 2424 says, "Uh, Church from Pet Cemetery. Technically a killer cat whose burial triggered all the subsequent horrors." Yeah, that's true.
Technically correct. Does the cat directly kill anyone or is it more of a ah we'll give give credit >> you know it's around >> yeah remove beneficial 1335 says Sandman's dream of a thousand cats as a beautifully brutal tale Lauretta 54 says the unnamed cat from Coraline who travels between worlds and aids escapes.
Yes, I love that cat. It's a great cat.
Uh Bent Westward says Roar. Um the most dangerous movie ever made with 70 real injuries on set. Yeah, you were just talking about that.
>> Yeah.
>> Scarlet Clarret says the ghost in the darkness uh lions for their malicious intentionality. That's the one about like the actual lions who were actually man killers, I believe. Um I mean it's a movie, but it's about a story of a thing that happened where there were killer lions. Yeah.
>> Yep. Yep. Yep. I I remember seeing that.
>> Short stop 88 says, "Princess Donut from Dungeon Crawler Carl."
Yes. You know, if I >> She does kill.
>> Now that we finally read Dungeon Crawler Carl, I have to say that Princess Donut is pretty high up in my rankings of fictional cats.
>> Well, you haven't read the additional seven novels, sir. So, you don't even know what she's fully capable of.
>> That's true. That's true.
>> So, you can't put her in your ranking until you've read every word of it.
>> Yeah. I guess I got no rejoinder to that. So, [laughter] uh >> I haven't either. It's fine.
Odin's Ghost 31 says Kajit from Skyrim. Sorry, no. Kajit Kajit is the race, I guess, and Gary is the character.
>> I don't know. I've never played Skyrim.
Please don't judge me.
>> Yeah, me neither. D Ranger 1919 says, "Gwin Huvir from Ra Salvatore's Dark Elf books. The 600 lb magical panther summoned from the astral plane." Wow, what a surprise to get this answer from Drow Ranger 1919. [laughter] >> Oh, that's great. Uh, I love all these answers. I do just want to say that, you know, you Apocalypse W mentioned the 1942 >> film Cat People.
>> Um, little film trivia for you there.
That is where the Luton bus was uh first utilized, which is just a fancy word for jump scare.
>> Oh, okay. It was directed by a man named Luton and uh he had a bus pop out of nowhere to do a jump scare and uh that's where the term is that's where it comes from.
>> Isn't there like a YouTube channel called Luden Bus or something like that?
>> Um probably I don't know.
>> True story.
[laughter] >> That was great. That was fun. Thank you everyone. Cats are cool. Yeah.
>> Especially when they murder people or robots.
>> Yeah. Yep. Yep.
>> Matt, >> what are we asking people next week?
>> Favorite mirror people.
>> Mirror people.
>> There are a lot of them.
>> Only one of you is allowed to pick Oculus, so go now.
>> Yeah. Hurry. [laughter] >> No, there's there's so many. Like mirrors are such fantastic things for horror. Um, there's a lot of lot of fun creepy things we could talk about here.
I think this will be a fun discussion.
>> Yeah, me too.
>> But that's going to do it for us this week. There's only one Usher child left, Matt, as we swing our way into the penultimate episode of The Fall of the House of Usher, The Pit and the Pendalum. [laughter] >> It's [snorts] great. Remember, you can reach us via email at flaniganswakepodgmail.com or over on xflaniganswake19 on the subreddit at reddit.com/dof media and on Instagram doof media. Also, don't forget that every episode can be found on video on YouTube and Spotify.
If you're watching on YouTube, please leave us a comment letting us know what you think. And uh enjoy.
Yeah, and please, if you want to wear some great merchandise to support Goldbug, you can head on over to dofdia.mmyshopify.com where you can actually find uh the wonderful get built shirt we have for sale there right now. My wife got her tank top in the mail the other day. It looks awesome. It looks really great.
You can also get the the lemon speech mug, hashtaglemon on a mug. It's like one of my favorite things that Jod's designed. Um lots of cool stuff over there. More stuff going to be added.
Check it out. We just enjoy sharing all this stuff with you. It's a lot of fun.
>> Yeah. Uh if you like our show and you want to support us, please consider donating to our Patreon at patreon.com/dofmedia.
Uh just a duge of uh exclusive content and other stuff going on over there on the Patreon.
>> So much stuff, guys. Check it out. And also, it's just a great way to communicate with us over there. Send us a DM. We'll respond usually pretty quickly. So, >> yeah. and and you can sign up as a free patron and still get a lot of the benefits of of uh membership. So, for sure >> get a free membership, just follow follow what's going on. Don't necessarily have to pay to be in the loop on every cool thing that's happening over there.
>> Mhm. Yeah. But of course, if you don't want to do that or you cannot afford to support us right now, there are other ways to help us out as there always are.
You can share the podcast. Please keep sharing the podcast wherever you can and please continue to leave us rating and reviews. Matt, I was going to read a review from the great country of Belgium who just yesterday [ __ ] kicked our ass in the World Cup.
Um, but we have no reviews from Belgium, so I guess we win on that one, [laughter] guys.
Uh, but so I went over to our friends up north again in Canada. Uh, this review comes from Lstat de Valoy Voy.
I think it's like the stage name of Lat from Annne Rice's stuff. So, it's Lat. It's the vampire Lat. He listens to our show.
>> Awesome.
>> We did it. We made it.
>> Yay.
>> Lat says, "Five stars. Company for the long days. It's spooky season again."
This review was written in October of last year. Pay no attention. It's spooky season again. And in celebration, I watched I rewatched the Flanigan series.
This year I wished for a little company on my journey and when searching quote a good Flanigan podcast good in all caps.
Up popped Flanigan's wake and I am loving every minute. Thought-provoking and compelling and I become that person who casually brings up podcasts and random conversations just to remember the podcast. Have moved on to Kingllingers to fill the days between the new episodes. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Wow, that's wonderful to hear. Um, I'm also great that our the $3 million we slipped to Google to to include us on searches for a good Flanigan podcast finally paid off. So, appreciate it.
>> Yeah, I take back everything I said.
[laughter] >> Thank you to the vampire list. What a great guy. And thank [laughter] you to everyone else who has continued to send those rating and reviews in. We really do appreciate you.
>> Yeah, thank you. All right, folks. That is it. One more episode down, two more episodes to go. We'll see you back here next week for the pit and the pendulum.
Until then, don't Mike, don't hit a mirror with a a bat. This is Don't hit mirrors.
>> Why would you do that?
>> Don't do it. Why?
>> Stop.
>> Come on, man.
Maybe get less mirrors. I think all houses would be better with just less mirrors in general.
>> I agree.
>> Remember in like a thousand years ago when just nobody knew what they looked like and we I think everyone was happier.
>> Everything was better then.
>> Yeah. I don't actually How long have mirrors been around? [laughter] Maybe we cut this part out of the outro.
[music] Heat. Heat.
[music] [music] [music]
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