The LCMS Forgot This Part of its Story...

Added: 2026-05-30

[00:00:02]This is lead time.

[00:00:04]>> Welcome lead time. Tim Alman here. Jack Cowberg is off today. I get the privilege of having a second time guest.

[00:00:10]Was on my podcast uh a bit ago and now is on lead time. Can't wait for this conversation today with Pastor Mark Brandt. He's been a child of God now for 70 years. Uh husband for 50, father for 47 years, and ordained pastor in the LCMS for 45 years. Uh that order of events fits chronologically with the priorities that he sought to live out in his various vocations. He served congregations in northeastern Nebraska, southwestern Michigan before coming to Frankenmouth. And we're going to talk about Frankenmouth today. Frankenmouth, Michigan in 1990 after serving as an associate pastor at St. Lawrence uh St. Lawrence. I'm saying that right. Isn't that right, Mark? I've been corrected.

[00:00:49]Yeah, there we go. St. Lawrence uh Lutheran Church for eight years. He became lead pastor in 1998 and he served in that capacity until his retirement from full-time ministry in 2020. A good year to retire, by the way, Mark was like probably everyone else who is retired, he enjoys having more time to travel and to spend time with his wife and their children, grandchildren. How many grandchildren you have now, Mark?

[00:01:09]>> We have seven.

[00:01:10]>> So good. He also enjoys helping area pastors by substitute preaching.

[00:01:14]Currently serves pastors don't really retire. They just uh refire into other contexts. He currently serves the Michigan District part-time as one of their three district facilitators where he supports ministry in the North and East region of the Michigan District by encouraging pastors through one-on-one visitation, consultation with congregations, especially congregations that are looking for their their next pastor. There's more of those congregations today than there were in the past. Prior to retirement, Mark served the church at large as a circuit counselor in the St. Joseph Circuit of Michigan for 5 years, member of the board of directors in the Michigan District for 6 years and as the first vice president of the Michigan district for 13 years from 2009 to 2022.

[00:01:55]And he wrote a sermon. This is where we're going to kick off today. He wrote a sermon titled when prayer doesn't work. So we're going to talk about prayer and then we're going to talk a little bit about the Franken Muth story in the life of the LCMS. Before we get going, Mark, how you doing, brother?

[00:02:08]Loving life?

[00:02:09]>> I'm doing very well, thank you. Yes. uh your comment about 2020 being a good time to retire. I had determined probably 5 years u before I retired that that was going to be the date for various reasons that announced that to my congregation and then what I say is that co put an exclamation point on that decisions getting through u to the very end of 2020 that was not a fun year was it?

[00:02:32]>> No no not at all for for any of us there's PTSD for many of us in terms of that year to be sure it was it was pretty traumatic. Anything more there Mark? Well, I was going to say um last time we did talk about that when prayer doesn't work. So, I don't know how much of that you want to um >> let's Yeah, let's not let's not spend as as much time there. Um >> let's talk about your your time there in Frankenmuth. Tell a little bit of the the overall story of of Frankenmuth and uh the crosses and lawn story, some of those types of things. Mark, let's hang there.

[00:03:03]>> Okay. All right. Uh we also talked about the crosses in the lawn. So, um last time I don't want to repeat too much. I will tell you that um Frankmouth was founded St. Lawrence was founded in 1845. One of the very unique things about um the community of Frankmouth is that normally um people come they they they form a community a town of some sort and then they decide oh we need a church. It was just the opposite here.

[00:03:28]The congregation was actually formed in Germany uh before anybody left uh the uh Germany and with the intention of founding a city. They already had a name for it, Frankenmouth. And uh the idea was that they were going to serve as a mission outpost uh to the Chippoa, the Native Americans who were in the area.

[00:03:48]Frank, the word itself means courage or the courage of the Franconians. And I think that um actually is missing the subject and the verb. I I can't find confirmation of this, but I'm sure this had to have been the case that when they chose that name Frankenmouth, what they meant by it was God. That's the subject.

[00:04:09]God is the courage of the Franconians.

[00:04:12]There's three other um in the Sageno Valley that have that Franken uh beginning. Franken Lewis, Franken Hilf, and and Franken Trost. They have other names now, but one of them means the courage. Well, that's Franken was the courage of the Franconians. Franken Lust is the joy of the Franconians. Again, God is the joy of the Franconians. God is the help of the Franconians. And God is the comfort. That's Frankenrost. God is the comfort of the Franconians. So very much at the heart of what this community has been and I would say to a large degree continues to be um is a very Christc centered community.

[00:04:48]>> So we're going to look at the history of of St. Lauren's um I found the notes Mark I pulled up the wrong the wrong document. We're good. We're good. We're on the right track now. So we're not going to talk about uh uh some of the things that I had on my other sheet.

[00:05:01]We're going to talk about the story of St. Loren and uh 180th anniversary just recently was celebrated and you gave you gave a a message on on history and learning from history. So we're going to be looking at a number of these talking points. Uh what you said in your message this goes back to August of uh 2025.

[00:05:22]It's good to learn history. It's vital to learn from history. And then you quoted Vilhelm Lea. he who has not searched the past has no authority to present proposals for the present or or the future. And then you talk through three three lessons from St. Lawrence uh history that you think are helpful today. So let's dig into to some of those Mark if you got it in front of you and uh and we'll see where the Holy Spirit leads. And I think the reason we're learning from the past is in the hope and it's so good that St. Lawrence is doing so well uh to this day. Uh, but our Senate is is not doing as well as we pray she will into the future. And we think that in this story there are some things to learn that could shape the future of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Senate. Isn't that right, Mark? Anything to say as as far as preamble before we get into it?

[00:06:09]>> Yeah, to me there's quite a few parallels both good and unfortunate uh in the history of uh of St. Lawrence and Frank and also the connection with our our Lutheran church. Uh so that mission festival there's an annual mission festival always in August the last or second to last Sunday of August and in 2025 we were able to observe the 180th as you mentioned because in 2020 we had all kinds of plans for the 175th anniversary and most of those went by the wayside uh because of COVID. So they decided okay uh uh 2025 there's a another decent time anyway to recognize our history and so I determined to do that. I was one of three preachers. Uh we were limited to 5 minutes a piece.

[00:06:54]None of us um kept to that limit. Uh but we tried our best. Uh one I was one of them, of course. Um Bill Hoseman, who had preceded me as the lead pastor at St. Lawrence, was another one. He's he and his wife live in Frankmouth and are members at St. Lawrence. And then Brad Huard, who uh succeeded me as the current lead pastor there, um rounded out uh the service. So I got to start uh with the history of St. Lawrence. I tried to keep it brief and really the the three lessons that um I've gleaned um and that I shared then the first one has to do with strategic adaptability.

[00:07:32]And I want to give uh credit to Matt Hine who's a friend of mine at a nearby congregation. I was visiting with him and and I saw on the wall of his office he has uh their their congregation's um value statements and one of them was purposeful adaptability. And so I told him I was going to steal that. But so it wasn't a complete theft. I changed the word. I kind of like strategic anyway.

[00:07:54]But strategic adaptability, which simply means that St. Lawrence, well, nobody really enjoys, well, very few people really enjoy change. It's inevitable and really ought to be embraced, not just kind of endured, but for the right reasons. So the idea be behind purposeful or strategic adaptability is we're not afraid to change. We're willing to change, but there's got to be a reason for it. It's got to be part of our mission, part of our strategy for that. The uh the example that I used, it's really a pretty surprising one in a lot of ways. before uh the folks ever left from Germany, they wrote lei did most of this but uh wrote a constitution and then everybody who was coming over signed that constitution and a big part of the constitution was St. Lawrence will be a German congregation, German speakaking, will always be a perpetually a German congregation. Our pastors and teachers, this is almost a direct quote now, our pastors and teachers are pledged to this. So that was 84 uh um 1844, 1845.

[00:09:02]And then less than a year later once they had gotten over here um even Pastor Lei who was such a staunch supporter of the German language. In fact he had had said you know if you let if you leave German uh the German language you're really going to be leaving behind pure theology because there's no other way to express it other than the German language.

[00:09:22]That's that's not an exact quote. But uh in October of 1845, so I' only been been here for a few months. Uh he wrote to and I'm going to read this. He wrote to uh Pastor Kramer who was the founding pastor at St. Lawrence. He said, and Lei wrote this regarding the Indian mission, there's something that disturbs me and yet I don't see how it can be avoided.

[00:09:44]The Indians are instructed through interpreters and learn English. The congregation you serve is German, should be and remain German. As it is, we are increasing the English, although we want to hold fast to the German. Certainly, one should not be labor this point. Let me have your opinion.

[00:10:00]So, isn't that amazing? Just a few months in, Pastor Lee um who really wanted to maintain the German said, "You know what? Maybe that's not going to work." He he in that same letter had said it seems like it'd be ideal if if we taught German to the natives and then we could instruct them in the German language because that's the pure theology language of course but he realized pretty early on as did Kramer uh pretty early on that German isn't going to get it done. Pastor Kramer was a pretty amazing man. I think we'll say some more about him later because he had some foibless as well. But he was quite the linguist and he set about to learn the Chipoah language. just said, "I need to be able to uh speak uh to these people in the area in their own language." And so he set about to do that, but he also recognized that that was going to take a long time. He had to hire an interpreter. He had a lot of trouble finding faithful and and accurate interpreters. But because the uh the uh the Chipua had learned a certain amount of English and the interpreter could go from English interpreters that spoke German. Usually it was French and Kramer could speak French. So he would speak French to the interpreter.

[00:11:14]The interpreter would translate that um into uh into the Chipo. I misspoke. He spoke English to the interpreter. The interpreter spoke Chipoa. And so that's how the English advanced. There was another time uh just a little bit over a year after that was early in in 1847 when they had the baptisms of three uh young Chipoa teenagers who had uh desire expressed a desire to be baptized and Kramer reported this back to Lei and said that he he had examined the youth uh before a worship service and then and while he was doing that the rest of the congregation was in the church and they were having their German worship.

[00:11:55]worship service and then they brought the youth in and they sang a song in in this German worship service in Chippoa.

[00:12:04]Then uh Kramer preached a sermon in German and then they prayed the Lord's prayer in the Chipoa language. So very very early on they had wisely strategically adapted to the reality in uh the United States that um you really need to speak the language that the people are speaking and that was English to large part and then also the chipoa.

[00:12:29]>> What an amazing story. So >> I hear some of those >> those historians these Lutherans are are these the Lutheran that came over with Walther or is this a later is this a later installation of Lutheran that came over after Walther and Stefen etc. So that came over the plant there.

[00:12:45]>> I think we'll get into that a little bit more too because some conflict arose there. But no, these were not the Saxons who came with these were Bavarians who came in 1845. When did the Saxons come?

[00:12:55]In 39 I think something like late 30s.

[00:12:58]That's right. So this is about five. So Lutheranism is taking root at least the Saxon movement is taking taking uh it's it's growing and and Wilhelm Lea at the time is is this is my general sense of the history he's helping to provide a number of different pastors and providing kind of ecclesial support from Germany during this time right and and so the the church there St. Lawrence was one of one of his church plants that he was intimately connected to being intimately connected to Pastor Kramer.

[00:13:25]Is this true?

[00:13:26]>> St. St. Lawrence was the first North American church that pastor Lehey planted. Amazingly, he planted churches.

[00:13:33]He never left Germany. He his wife died after 6 years of marriage and he had three kids and he wasn't going to leave them and he had other responsibilities.

[00:13:41]He was incredibly active um in the small town in which he was working to do a lot of social ministry. Uh kind of ahead of his time there too, I would say. Uh but so he never but he founded congregations in uh in South America in uh New Guinea and there's another one that's escaping me but but around the world actually there were lay people who were uh doing missions but he started in North America with uh with a goal of not just maintaining the German language or even reaching German settlers who are already in North America who would be heading that way but specifically There are people living in this area who have never heard the gospel. We need to share it with them.

[00:14:25]>> It's a very mission heart.

[00:14:26]>> Yes.

[00:14:27]>> Yeah. Sometimes, well, I I may have given Leia a hard time because of he and and Walther's kind of battle between the office holy ministry and the priesthood and and some of those types of things, but there's no questioning, this is one of those parts of the story. There's no questioning his heart for the lost, his heart for different people groups, and his leadership development prowess. I mean, and sending over that many pastors like a he's a pastor traded factory coming out of Vilhelm Lea there in Germany. I mean, it's pretty pretty phenomenal. Anything more to say there about his strategic adaptability, Mark?

[00:14:59]>> No, I don't think so right now.

[00:15:00]>> Let's go into the second one. Second point from St. Lauren's history that uh should shape us today is service requires sacrifice. Let's talk about that.

[00:15:08]>> The the sacrifice that was made by the people who came over from Germany is just incredible. I I don't know how interested you'd be in most of it, but there there's you can just think of the general things on the on sailing as two months on the ocean, very cramped quarters. Uh five newly married couples, by the way, that had to be probably part of their motivation for leaving Germany.

[00:15:29]They're very restrictive marriage laws in Bavaria. And yet that doesn't seem to was quite clear on this. That was not their prime motivation. But shortly after they they boarded the ship, five engaged couples became five married couples. They had absolutely no privacy on this ship. They were all crowded together. They had to provide all their own drinking water and food. So, they really had to ration that. Uh very tragic thing, a smallox epidemic um hit the ship. And the day they sailed into New York Harbor, a little two-year-old daughter of one of the couples who had already been married before boarding the ship, uh she died of smallox. And heartbreakingly, I would say, they were not allowed by the ship's captain to bring that child onto the land and bury her there. They had to bury her at sea because they knew they were going to be boarded by customs officials who are going to be checking to see if people on board were healthy. Otherwise, they wouldn't be allowed to dock there in New York Harbor. So, they had to bury before they they were two hours out, I think, of of New York Harbor. And they had to bury this little girl by sea. So there was no grave for the parents to ever come and visit or or anything like that.

[00:16:41]>> Um they also um ended up and this is a part of the history that you don't really hear that often. I will have to say I'm indebted for a lot of this to a book written uh by somebody from Frank Luth Herman Zender who is a pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri Senate. Um he wrote a book called Teach My People the Truth which was the instruction that had been given to Kramer by the Chipoa chief who allowed Kramer to speak to the people.

[00:17:07]He said that's okay if you do that but you got to tell them the truth because he was used to too many white people and some missionaries not Lutheran but some missionaries who would stretch the truth uh for their own advantage.

[00:17:21]Um but as a result of this uh smallpox uh academ uh epidemic uh some uh really a fracture in the relationship between Kramer their pastor and the other colonist took place because one of the people who came to the four during that smallox epidemic was a was another woman from Germany but not from the same area of Germany as she wasn't traveling with the congregation anyway but with an with another group. She was an unmarried mom.

[00:17:52]She had a a 5-year-old son. And remember, this is 1845.

[00:17:56]So, she really had been shunned. Uh we don't know all the details except for she had a 5-year-old son. Uh and she wasn't married. Uh she was an angel of mercy to the uh people who were sick.

[00:18:08]Kramer fell in love with her and he told his uh parishioners he was going to marry this woman. They were shocked and appalled. They were a gas. They couldn't believe that their pastor would marry the in quotes uh such a woman. And he was very offended. He said, "You don't get to tell me who I fall," I'm paraphrasing, "you don't get to tell me who I fall in love with, and I'm going to marry whomever I please." And so, shortly after they landed in in New York City, he married her very much against the wishes of uh the people. So, part of the hardship that they bore was totally unexpected. in that was and this was just one of several instances where Pastor Kramer and uh the people didn't get along so well. In some ways, Ley might have anticipated some of this because he interviewed Kramer before kind of appointing him as pastor for the congregation. Kramer came and said, "Hey, I'd like to help out with this."

[00:19:02]So did an interview and he wrote Lei wrote to a friend later. He said, um, Kramer doesn't have all of the qualities that I'd like to see. Again, that's a paraphrase, but doesn't have all of the qualities that I'd like to see, but I think he has enough that he can that that he's the man for the job. And I I think the qualities that were lacking in him was really a personal warmth and maybe what you'd call it emotional quotient. I know you like that. um and and people skills because he was very much old school hair pastor that uh when the pastor speaks the people need to listen and it's not just in spiritual matter. So there were several times also for during the first year really of their of this mission experiment uh that Kramer and his people just uh didn't get along. Falling in love and marry and Dorothia was uh the first of many of those. But so that was a hardship that that nobody would have anticipated or for which they were prepared.

[00:20:01]>> So the the people good thing that never happens today where a church and a pastor don't get crossed with one another. It absolutely it absolutely could happen. And uh the power struggles that that commence the people they considered moving on from Kramer, didn't they? Tell that story.

[00:20:16]>> They did.

[00:20:16]>> Yeah. They um there was another his who traveled kind of ahead. I think he came to the United States ahead of of Kramer, but he hooked up with them. his name was Lochner and he tried to be a mediator between Kramer and the people and the people kind of latched on to him and after a while the people said we're not going to listen to to Kramer anymore and then there was a a time where apparently anyway they thought they could swap out one one for the other trade and and they um fortunately uh that didn't happen because Kramer went on to be and and this really ought to be a uh a hopeful thing for any of us who have had run-ins with congregational members.

[00:21:00]He went on to be such a such a great force. He's there for only 5 years, but went on to be such a great force in that congregation and beyond. And when he left, he went to Fort Wayne Seminary, as a matter of fact, to be a professor there. When he left, they they followed him all the way to Bridgeports, five or six miles away. They had a long procession of of wagons and buggies and the church bells rang. The people were so sad to see him go. They were they were weeping. They were crying. He got to Bridgeport. Even people who lived in Bridgeport who weren't members at St. Lawrence, they were Yankees. Uh they said to Mr. Kramer, you should not go because the people loved him so much.

[00:21:38]What kind of changed the tide was a was a number of things. And that falls really under the third point in the sermon. So I'll slip there forgiveness is necessary. they did figure out uh that that they there both of them contributed greatly to this conflict and living in the mercy of Jesus and wanting to the the mission statement is still the St. Lawrence mission statement today has changed slightly, but since Ley kind of assigned it uh to us was to show others by word and deed how beautiful it is to live with Jesus. And they kind of figured out we're not really doing a good job of that. We're not showing how beautiful it is to live with Jesus because we're not being so forgiving toward one another. And there seems to be one incident that sparked that.

[00:22:25]Dorothia's son uh was 5 years old. His name was Henry. He went on to be a pastor, by the way, in the LCMS. U he got lost. There's dense forest in the Sageno Valley at the time. It was almost all forest and swamps. And apparently he followed a group of men out into the forest kind of, you know, like a little kid will do. And they didn't realize that he got lost and they didn't know where he was till the very next morning.

[00:22:48]So they sent out search parties. You can imagine how terrifying this was for everybody. Turns out that a couple in Bridgeport saw him wandering in the wilderness. They were worried there were bears in the area and they were worried for him. So they took him in uh put him up for the night and then the next morning somehow uh this was discovered and and he was brought back. But after that we're told that the relations between the the settlers and their pastor Thaw considerably.

[00:23:18]>> That's amazing. Uh did they build a church? So talk about how it kind of settled there. Did they build a church soon? Were houses constructed? They have any kind of temporary worship spaces, tents, etc. Like tell some of that.

[00:23:30]Yeah, I mean that was some of the conflict too. But when they first they lived in Sageno for a while in rendered quarters and then the men went to Frankmouth and built uh a community hut. I think it was 30 by 30 something like that. And they all lived in that community hut for several months. So this was in August of 1845. They lived in that community hut.

[00:23:53]There were five married couples, two single men and the Kramer family all living together. And the next thing they did was to build, and there's a replica of this across from the current church building. Now, uh what they did was to build a combination parsonage school because that's one of the first things they did was found a school for the Chippoa uh children because there were no children of their own uh for the Chipoa children. And in that same little school room, they met for worship. So they they dedicated that on Christmas Day in 1845. So, the Kramers were able to move out of the community hut after just a few months. It wasn't until the next spring when the colonists could build uh their own huts and and they were very rough. Uh nothing uh luxurious at all about them, just hune out of timber. But one of the conflicts that arose was in early 1846 when they're trying to figure out how are we going to plan this? Kramer had it all figured out. he was going to they were going to uh settle in a community and then they were going to have farms that were rather narrow uh but very very long so they could keep the community aspect but each have their own individual farms.

[00:25:06]Well, the settlers kind of like the way they saw that it was done in the United States where everybody lived on their own farm. They weren't that close together. There was a lot of advantages for that as well. Kramer got very upset.

[00:25:17]He said that they were listening to other people rather than him and that that wasn't right. Uh, one other time he had been ill. He was very ill with malaria three times. A lot of them were with the swamps and the mosquitoes. And they were going to carry him from Frankenmouth. He had been helping to build the community hut to carry him from Frankenmouth back to Sagenov. So they got a canoe. They couldn't paddle the canoe because of the condition. So they were going to carry him. They put some pillows in there. And what we're told, and I don't know when exactly this happened, but I picture him sitting in that canoe. I don't know if that's the way it was, but lecturing them, telling them why they owed him uh their respect and obedience. All we know for sure is that he did this just before just before they took him to Sagena. So whether he was sitting in that canoe or not, I don't know. My imagination kind of goes wild sometimes, but that's kind of the way pastors operate though, isn't it? We uh we sometimes like to correct people sometimes. Yeah, that's very true. So it uh how did it how did it grow? like tell the story of of growth. I mean it reached out to the Chipoa community and obviously those five families they started having kids. Did it grow? Did other were other people kind of attracted to the settlement? Tell that story.

[00:26:27]>> Yes. So they worshiped in that uh combination parsonage church for about a year. They built the very the first actual church was built constructed in 1846.

[00:26:40]They at that time other people were coming from Germany. It seems as if some of the settlers might have exaggerated how wonderful it was to live in the United States. And uh about a hundred people came over in 1846 and came to Frankenmouth because they had heard from friends and relatives this is a great place. When they got there, they found out that great wasn't probably the word they were going to use. Uh but it turned out to be that way. And then more followed and more followed. It did happen um that the Indian mission really was not a great success. uh in large part because Germans put down deep roots and uh the natives did not they were very nomadic and so they didn't stick around and so so Kramer was a very energetic individual and so some of the things I said before about his foibless should not take away from the impact that he had and the work that that he tirelessly did uh in in the cause of Jesus Christ. So he would he would visit uh Indian um settlements, communities uh great distances away and that's how they had got kids to come to the school was that the the the parents would be convinced that this would be a good thing for their children to do. Probably shouldn't think of school in the same way that that we do because they came and they went. There were no truency officers or anything like that. And so they would have maybe a dozen I think one time they had up to 20 maybe students who were living with the Kramers in that small um cabin that they had taught by Kramer's wife Dorththa and the Indians loved her. They called her mother. Uh the settlers it in less than a year grew to have great respect for her. This was the the unw mother whom Kramer married. But uh they grew to love her to to realize that she was a a dedicated Christian woman that she was very compassionate and um that that she was as hardworking uh as her husband. So they did have some natives younger usually who uh expressed a desire to be baptized. Kramer himself baptized I think it was 15 in the five years that he was there. So uh the first three that I had talked about it and then some more um very few others were baptized in Frankenmuth. There were some in in surrounding areas but the uh the Indian mission pretty much failed. It was the German settlers who were coming who were uh and some of the English in other uh nearby communities who were proitized and who uh became part of St. Lawrence. the church really just grew kind of phenomenally and they they had to build another church almost right away 1852 I think it was and then they built what's our current structure the first part of that they built in 1880 was very large in the mid 1960s it was practically doubled in size by adding some very beautiful large transeps and the the St. Lawrence continues to grow today.

[00:29:44]>> What is a transcept? I don't know.

[00:29:46]>> A transep dating.

[00:29:49]Well, well, you need to study your ecclesiastical architecture, I guess.

[00:29:54]>> Yeah. But for those that are unfamiliar.

[00:29:56]>> Oh, yeah. Okay. So, you know, you know, I should explain it to others. Uh transcept is is like the arms of a cross. So, in a church where you'd have the nave is the the long part of the cross, a transcept would be like the arm. So intersecting the nave pretty close to the chancel uh at at a right angle and then on both sides of the nave.

[00:30:15]>> Well, very few of our churches today have transcepts in in modern.

[00:30:20]>> Yes. Oh, absolutely. St. >> What is the origin? Why did they why do they have transp? What what's the history of that? So that the the church itself, the structure of the church looked like a cross. Is that is it as simple as that? Mark, >> I'm going to say yes, but that's a guess. I I think I maybe learned that somewhere along the line, but I I don't recall now. But I think that it's a crucifiform structure and and why not that makes it and it's also very practical um in a lot of ways.

[00:30:45]>> Yeah. Hey, a part of the story that's just amazing to me and it really is as a student of history and how America was settled and I live out here in the west and you think of a lot of the the settlers who are are coming out joining the American adventure and many of them are looking to bring the gospel but they're going on this remarkable remarkable adventure not knowing if they're going to live and they're settling in these communities and our life today all that to say like our life is so comfortable right Mark I mean with absolutely with AI I increasing I mean the god of this age is is comfort and the give it to me now no and that that physical comfort um and discomfort in previous generations almost 200 years ago now in this story I think this physical discomfort leads to an adaptability toward relational discomfort we conflict is going to be inevitable and I think today because of a lot of our physical comforts we do conflict the uncomfortable conversations poorly. And I think because we're physical beings, right? We're we're heart, body, mind, spirit. We're in flesh. The spirit of the living God makes his dwelling within our within our flesh. I I've just seen a reluctance and actually a repulsion from any sort of difficult conversation in the LCMS. And it's not just the LCMS. I think it's just a human condition today in a polarized tribal type of a culture that we have today. And it's getting increasingly that circle gets increasingly small. So talk about talk about how they work through conflict very naturally. And I think Kramer's story is so foundational and it should be foundational for us today. If we're going to stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before almost 200 years in our story, we have to get better at at godly, Holy Spiritfilled challenging conversations. Anything more to say there, Mark?

[00:32:34]>> I agree with you, but I also they weren't so good at it either. At least not initially. Um uh Kramer uh referred to them as clowns to their faces, I think. And he wrote he wrote to Ley and and said they were writing back and forth to Ley all the time. This poor guy Lee, he must have wonder what the heck's going on here because as soon as soon as they got to Michigan, the settlers wrote to Ley about uh him marrying Kramer marrying Dorothia and how terrible that was. And Kramer right away wrote also to Leia and was telling them, you know, his side of the story. Uh but also at one time uh they challenged him about something and uh Kramer reported this delay and said you know these are just ordinary people as as opposed to me. And of course I told you about the lecture when he was either in the canoe or standing beside the canoe and and so they um they weren't always very kind to each other. The settlers did to their credit pretty early on they could they knew that things weren't going very well. So they decided we're not going to argue with him anymore. we're going to we're going to try to get along. Uh they didn't always stick to that and at one point they decided they were done listening to him even uh because he just was apparently kind of going on and on about what they owed him which which you know is what he brought over uh from Germany. And so this also was a big part of the conflict between Lei and especially Walther and Winn uh over a church and ministry. You might want to give that another look, Tim, because I think you kind of disparaged our hero here, um, uh, Pastor Lee. He he he simply maintained what the European churches and pastors had been teaching and how they had been governing themselves for decades, maybe maybe centuries. He didn't change, but we we know the story of of the Saxon immigrants and Martin Stefan and Walther rescuing uh and gave him all kinds of credit for that rescuing that that colony because they didn't even know if they had a right to call themselves a church or to exist anymore because they had deposed their bishop. And so Walther really I think this is fair to say and is absolutely not a criticism. He kind of acclimated the So maybe here's some strategic adaptability here. Hadn't thought of that before. He kind of acclimated the doctrine of church and ministry to what was what he saw in America. The the and was much more democratic giving the congregation much more authority allowing the pastor to have authority really only in spiritual matters. Lehey thought that a pastor had the right to excommunicate for instance and he he maintained that right and and Walther said no the congregation alone has the right to excommunicate someone. So they they Wikin and Walther went over to Germany to try to kind of resolve uh this conflict and it seemed like they were very cordial. They they were there for several months. They were had some very cordial conferences. It was after that time and I still can't find the quote but where walther wrote a very glowing account of Elm Ley and said that in large part the growth of the Missouri Senate it wasn't Missouri Senate you know the growth of our Senate uh is due to pastor Ley and to the um the pastors that he has sent over to the United States. And it was just probably a year or so later that they completely broke a relations with Lehey over church and ministry. And I mean it was a they had a difference there. Lehey's thought was this is a real difference. Let's keep talking about it. This is not necessary to sever fellowship over. uh the Missurrians u well they kind of lumped him in with Grao and you know how all of that went and and actually Lei got involved in that kind of against his better judgment I think he thought maybe he could help to resolve that conflict and and that kind of got him in the middle of it and so the missions really after that just didn't have much use for him and in fact uh for a significant portion of Missouri Senate history you really you only heard about the Saxons you didn't hear about Bill Hemlay you didn't hear about what the Bavarians had done. The Bavarians brought the mission spirit. The Saxons brought and and this is still today. I mean, it's not Bavarians and Saxons anymore, but brought that mission spirit. They they were very much desirous of maintaining pure doctrine.

[00:37:05]The Saxons came to maintain pure doctrine. They couldn't do that back in Germany because of the the laws in Saxony. And so for them, if if you are not 100% in agreement with us, uh you know, everything where we disagree can break fellowship and and Lei was a little more practical, a little more maybe gentle about that.

[00:37:26]>> That's funny. You give a do you give a different take on on the story uh because of your your context. So for those that are well, for those that are unaware of the Walther Lelay split, what was the nature of it? And I, you know, I I kind of view Walther sometimes as being more charitable and desirous of I've read a lot of his a lot of his work desirous of building bridges to other Lutheran that are coming and and seeing, you know, working past synretatism, working toward true unity in in doctrine and our our shared confession. So, it's kind of surprising that in your in your understanding, you think Walther was the one that was less charitable as it related to church and and ministry than Leia. So, I I'm trying to I'm painting a little bit with a with a broad brush there, but yeah, give us more of the nuance of that relationship and and what led to the split. Well, I appreciate your your a bit a mild correction because I I maybe um went a little too far the other way and I'm relying in large part on Herman Zender's book for this and and while he says he's trying to be very objective and he he does uh footnote everything. He read a lot of original letters and all of those things. Uh but uh he's from Frankmouth so I think he might have been a little biased and and I might be as well. Um but Walth I mean that was one of the purposes of Deruda honor wasn't it? to try to to discover to reach out and to find other like-minded individuals. So, in no way do I or at least did I want to um downplay that because it's not as if Walther in particular wanted to just maintain this tight group and anything like that. But they were extremely, it seems like anyway, extremely insistent that we must agree in every little thing if if we're going to be in fellowship.

[00:39:12]and the thing they most disagreed about from your perspective regarding the office of holy ministry and the priesthood of all believers. Would you say just more there about the nature of of that conflict?

[00:39:22]>> Yeah, I that is that so much rested on the pastor and he had the authority uh pretty much to make decisions in worldly matters as well as in spiritual matters. Uh certainly he was the one who proclaimed the word of god and that's what what gave him that authority.

[00:39:40]Uh I think Lehey we shouldn't say that he in any way disagreed about the priesthood of all believers because as a matter of fact he was the one who recruited 14 lay people to come and be missionaries in the Sageno Valley. Now at the same time he did say that that they were supposed to be doing their work while the pastor was doing his work of preaching uh ad ministering the sacraments and those and actually doing the mission work to the Indians. The lady's idea it seems anyway was primarily let people see this harmonious community and then they're going to I'm I'm saying this I didn't read this anywhere but then they're going to be asking questions like how how are you guys getting along so well?

[00:40:22]That's why the mission was threatened when they weren't getting along so well, but how is it that you guys are getting along so well? Then then you could have your pastor, not so much the lay people, but then you could have your pastor explain to them how Jesus is the great mediator between God and man and helps uh uh humans also uh to get along together.

[00:40:41]>> That's that's good. Are there other uh other areas of Leia's story that you think he doesn't get a kind of a fair shake on? Um I this is all new for me, Mark. I I was I'm way more of a Saxon historian than the Bavarian uh kind of angle. And I mean even even the part of the settlers coming through New York, we think of most of I think the LCMS foundational Saxon settlers coming up the Mississippi right from New Orleans, right? So it's just a different different kind of origin origin story.

[00:41:13]And I think it's it's so helpful for us to um history history can paint people in uh black and white colors. And I think you got to look at Walther and Leia and all you know Winn and all of our kind of founding fathers in the LCMS and say these guys are they're doing the best they can with the information at hand. Uh there's no questioning uh Ley's heart for mission and for leadership development and pastoral formation. So any any other parts of Leia's story where you think I don't know that we give him a a fair shake today, Mark? Any anything more there?

[00:41:46]>> Missouri Senate was founded in 1847. The Constitution was signed by 15 pastors and four lay people. So 15 pastors, 11 of them were lay men. Two of them were Saxons. Two were of other origin. I don't know what. of the lay people, four who signed the constitution, original constitution, three were lay men and one was maybe Saxon, maybe from somewhere else. The Fort Wayne Seminary that that Ley founded and later gave to the Missouri Senate at their request, this was before the break, but they were getting kind of close to that. He gave the Fort Wayne Seminary to the Missouri Senate and continued to provide financial resources for that. He must have been a fantastic fundraiser. Uh I think that's where the old money follows mission uh might have originated because he was able really to inspire people to want to to share in this mission. And so he continued to do that. But in 1849, I'm pretty sure I've got these numbers right. St. Louis Seminary had been going for a while, even a little bit longer than the Fort Wayne Seminary. In 1849 on the LCMS and it wasn't LCMS but on the clergical clergy roles at the time 15 pastors had come from the Fort Wayne Seminary three had come from the seminary in St. Louis. So that's why Walther Walther could say except for God himself no one deserves more credit for the success of the in the early years of our senate than does Velheim. By the way, I know you'd want to hear this. Uh, when they came into New York Harbor, there were some Lutheran pastors who would meet them and try to guide them through because there were all kinds of uh cheats and and husters and everything in New York City trying to take advantage of these stupid immigrants who didn't even speak English. So, there were German pastors uh who would meet them. One of them was named Pastor Brandt. So, he must have been a pretty good guy. I don't know anything else about him than that. Oh, >> but so he really Here's another thing.

[00:43:48]In 1949, the Missouri Senate decided to send pastors to New Guinea, missionaries to New Guinea. When they got there, there was already a Lutheran church numbering 400,000 souls that had been founded and ministered to by Ley men.

[00:44:05]So, again, you see the missionary spirit there and and the success uh that the that the Lord granted uh to this man. So in in for a lot of years because of that break and and it was there were definite differences. By the way, Lei also went off the rails later on. This was after the break, but when it came to esquetology and millennialism, uh he kind of flirted um with uh thousand-y year reign of Christ and that kind of thing. Briefly, it seems like maybe for six months or so, and then he got away from it. So far from perfect individual, but he certainly was so instrumental and yet crickets for how many decades after the split until probably in the 1960s or 70s when people started to recognize once again the uh the great contribution that he had made. And Tim, really what all of this does when we see and it's it's so important for us to do this because we do especially for people in the past, we tend to to make them one-dimensional and to to glorify them.

[00:45:10]And these all of these men were heroes.

[00:45:11]I I and by every definition of the word, they were heroes, but they were also men. They were also human beings. They had uh weaknesses and shortcomings and they screwed up. And that's where forgiveness is always essential.

[00:45:26]Forgiveness is always at the heart of what we do as as Christians. First of all, the forgiveness that that we receive and enjoy from our savior, but then the forgiveness that we extend to others who who are going to offend us and we're going to offend them. That's just part of what it means to be human.

[00:45:44]>> Yeah. Amen. The split that you were talking about was between Walther and Lei, right? That's >> Yes. Well, the Missouri Senate and Le So, and and actually St. Lawrence, I'm going to say 1854,55, something like that.

[00:45:56]>> Wow.

[00:45:57]>> And the St. Lawrence people, they kind of turned their back on Pastor Lei, too.

[00:46:01]They had been persuaded by what they had read. A couple of their pastors uh really um had nothing good to say about Lei because of of the split and because of the difference of opinion about church and ministry. And so they uh to some of them he was on his way to hell.

[00:46:20]He was hardly Christian anymore. So there was some pretty radical how about that? Some pretty radical um thoughts and statements. They wrote him some letters uh pretty much saying uh we we can't have anything to do with you anymore. And and so it was uh it was pretty nasty. He wrote a letter back kind of saying okay I'm done with you people. um tried to be kind of gentle, but I this was part of the spirit of the times too, but uh tried to be gentle, but also saying, "Yeah, you guys, you're the superch Christians." Reminded me of Paul in a little bit. You're the superch Christians and I'm just me.

[00:46:51]>> Oh.

[00:46:52]>> Wow. How did if you know, and you may not know this, um but how did he how did they how did he raise up so many leaders? Like what was the process going on over in Germany that there was this like pastoral factory and he just pumping these missionary pastors out all across the world? It's remarkable. Mark, >> do you know >> this gets a little a little bit uh this also gets to the whole pastoral formation u discussion today because they were >> um well you know the emergency helpers uh that win really kind of got that whole thing started in Germany and Lei really picked up the ball uh there and he just he was a very passionate excellent preacher apparently uh very passionate and would recruit people and he would train So there were some of the first ones that he sent even ahead of the Frankenmuththers in the uh I think was the early 1840s probably. He served his congregation and he did his work there in the morning and then from 1:00 in the afternoon till 6:00 in the evening five or six days a week he trained them. He trained them first to be teachers. He thought that they could be prochial school teachers. They could go to America and make a living there.

[00:48:02]But when you look at the list of what he taught, he taught them everything. the deep theology, English language, uh I don't remember what all but you know, but church history, you know, and all of those things. It happened that when they got to America, Adam Ernst was one of them. I can't remember the second one, but when they got to America, nobody was hiring teachers. So they they went to a Lutheran seminary in Columbus, Ohio for a year. So Blley trained them uh for I think three years and then they went to uh the uh seminary in Ohio for one year and then they both receive calls to serve as pastors. By the way, Tim, way off of the subject here on this, but just thinking I I paid a fair amount of attention to the pastoral formation. I listen to some of Zack Zender stuff and your stuff of course and I'm thinking SMP. Is it okay to talk about that?

[00:48:54]>> Oh, yeah. Let's go. Yeah, for sure.

[00:48:55]Thank you.

[00:48:56]>> Thinking SNP that it occurs to me that there's some truth anyway to this statement that that theologians, trained theologians, pastors form pastors. And I mean that's that's for the why the vicorage program exists, right? But then also just think about that with the SMP program or others where pastors like pastor Lehey were forming pastors. They didn't have a seminary. He started with annoying detaile a little later on but uh and that's where a lot of the pastors graduated uh from that were sent uh later but the pastors were the ones who were forming the pastors who were showing them what it meant to be a pastor and those kinds of things. You need the theologians. I mean pastors need to be theologians to a degree of certainly but you need the the expert the professional theologians like we have at the seminaries to train uh theologians to train us in theology and especially to do theological research and those kinds of things. But I think we have not given enough credence to the fact that it's when when men are in the parish being trained by experienced pastors that they really are formed uh the way that they are. I I received such great instruction at the seminary. I learned a lot watching my dad. He was a pastor growing up. I learned a lot on vicorage. But it wasn't until I actually got into the parish and started having regular uh discussions with other pastors. Some of sometimes we agree, lots of times we didn't agree on on various things, but that is what I would say formed me into being a pastor.

[00:50:29]Everything else added to that, but it was spending time with other pastors in a congregational setting uh that that really uh did the most when it came to forming me as a pastor. And I think that uh I think that's got to be understood as as the as the case. There there are leaders in the LCMS that have looked and and to my face said, "Who gave you the right to form pastors, you know, and to to raise some leaders?" I'm like, "Jesus, I don't know what like this is what Jesus did. This is what Paul did. This is what Leia did and Walter did." Like pastors make pastors in our context to reach people with the gospel. And this is not this is not against our our wonderful seminaries or institutions. And I I don't This is where adaptability has to come in. And it's just my my head just Why would you not want to work with pastors that are looking to to raise up kind of local regional seminaries like what we're trying to do to do here and and all the technology is there. This is adaptability, right? All the technology is there to get the men the appropriate LCMS content and doctrine. And and all we've done is kind of hamstring ourselves even further with the S&P uh restrictions. And um yeah, it's it's just it's just wild. My my head just I I don't know I don't know why institutional leaders wouldn't want to work with congregations like like both of ours, especially when not only scripture, but our LCMS story stands on the foundation of pastors raising up raising up pastors. So any anyhow and and especially today when we got such a shortage, we're we're falling we're falling behind all the data. It's not just about data. It's about congregations that are asking for pastors. can you find me a new pastor?

[00:52:12]Could there be a pastor in my community that we could raise up and train and and uh yeah, we're just talking right past each other. So, I pray I pray we can come to some sort of an agreement all sides. I've I've talked to Andy Bartel who was one of the the formation founders of the S&P program. And I 100% agree with this. We need to get the entire Senate together. And you need representation on all different sides of this conversation at the table for an extended period of time for us to ask the Holy Spirit to help us negotiate to to get to a spot where not everybody's going to get what they want. Not, you know, I if I could snap my fingers and say, "Oh, it's got to be 10." No, I realize it's going to be the Holy Spirit's way, which is going to lead us to to come together in the spirit of Acts chapter 15 to to work together um and to have much debate about this topic and to to come to a better solution than it is right now where a small group of people get in a a room and get to kind of thus sayith this this mandate get to make these decisions. It's not pleasing to the Lord and is bringing division in the body of Christ and it's definitely not in the spirit. Well, maybe it is in the spirit and we want to get rid of that spirit that led Walther and Leia Leia to to divide. We do not want to work toward division right now. And leaders are going to have to walk into some uncomfortable conversations, look at what is and to bring even people that you don't agree with, you know, into the room. Into the room. And uh >> that's what you're trying to go with your coinia. That's what you're trying with your coinia conference. I was I was so hoping to be able to go and I I just couldn't make that happen. But maybe that's a start. Anyway, I know that uh there weren't as many uh people on both sides, you know, and all of that, but uh maybe that's a start and and hopefully and hopefully we can figure some of those things out. I I I remember I think you said this, Tim, I think it was your grandfather and my father um when they were training for the ministry. My dad went to uh Concordia High School in St. Paul, Missouri for four years. Then he went to Concordia Seward for only two years on a pastoral track and then to St. Louis Seminary with Vicorage for four years. So his training was cut short by two years because that was during World War II. He he was at really at the very end of of World War II, but they needed to to pump out some pastors.

[00:54:32]And so they adapted to what was there and said, "We're going to we're going to figure out how to shorten this." And everything's a compromise, right?

[00:54:40]Because if you if you shorten something, well then there's something that you're not uh able to teach or to to learn. At the same time, if all you're doing is learning, you're not actually out there doing. So, you you have to figure out where's the uh sweet spot in all of that.

[00:54:54]>> Yeah, that's right. That's right. Hey, this has been really helpful. Anything else to say as it relates to where the LCMS is? Because we wanted to tell this story so we could learn from history and so that we could not repeat it. We have to learn from it. Any any kind of closing comments about the St. Lawrence story and how it should shape us in the LCMS today, Mark?

[00:55:14]>> Yeah, you know what? But I hadn't prepared for that. I guess I would say number one, let's celebrate successes.

[00:55:20]And maybe that's part of the whole situation is sometimes, you know, how you're going to define success. But I mean, we're where obviously God has blessed ministry. Maybe there's even a little bit of jealousy there sometimes or lack of trust because well, you must be doing something that's not quite right because people are coming to your church. Yeah. Know what? Maybe that's not the case. But so so let's let's celebrate each other's successes. Let us learn to trust uh each other in our Frank and Moose circuit. there's a high level of trust uh with between pastors who have different worship styles and and different size congregations and we'll get together regularly as you know most pastors do with the Winkle and and really learn to to trust one another and then really to just uh to do the hard work that Jesus has asked us assigned us to do to um well I'm going to go back to the St. Lawrence mission statement to show others by word and deed how beautiful it is to live with Jesus. When when we can do that and St. Lawrence continues to do that and I haven't had it I mean I'm not there for 5 years so this is nothing with me but continues to show others how beautiful it is to live with Jesus in large part through our school families who see what's happening. and we have a lot of community members in the school but who really say well that you know if it's beautiful that means it's attractive and if it's attractive that means I would like to know more about it and become part of it can we do that I think we can no matter no matter what size congregation we are what style of worship we use any of those things >> amen shout out uh the best practices for ministry heartland is coming up this summer and St. Lawrence host hosts that gathering. Isn't that right, Mark? Say a little bit. Do you know the dates for that?

[00:57:05]>> Uh, it's in August. It actually happens to be a week when we're going to be at Camp Arcadia. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. It's a beautiful camp. Um, but St. Lawrence has hosted it a couple years while I was still there and last summer hosted it and then this summer will host it again. Say the 12th to 14th, something like that uh in August. Anyway, so it got moved to August. It had been in September or October when it was in Carmel, Indiana.

[00:57:31]And they moved it to August for various reasons, but but last year was the first year that happened. And as a result of that, I was able to I I I did a a breakout there and and was at the sessions. As a result of that, there were a lot more teachers there than during September and October. And that's part of the idea is not just for pastors. It's for professional church workers in particular. A lot of lay people were there, too. But that was a real uh neat thing that developed that in August getting close to the start of the school year. So vacations are done maybe before teacher meetings have started. So a lot of schools brought uh most of their faculty. They were close by of course but uh brought a lot of their faculty to this and there were a lot of breakout sessions for for teachers. So that was a very nice thing to see.

[00:58:16]>> I'm going to be there. I'm looking forward to it. never been to uh Best Practices Heartland and uh Brad Huard invited me and I think it's uh we're we're talking right now making making it happen. It's right during football season for me so it's a little little hard to travel but I'm going to be >> Brad says you should come you should come.

[00:58:30]>> I know he's he's quite uh he's quite a pusher. I love I love that.

[00:58:33]>> You can be persuasive. Yes, >> he's very persuasive. Yeah, I love it.

[00:58:37]Hey Mark, if people want to connect with you, how can they do so?

[00:58:39]>> Um probably through my uh email at the Michigan District website, mark.brandtbrtt mark.brandt brandman district.org michigan district.org There it is. So, I feel like a doof at the beginning of this. I have so many like uh documents that float around for all the different podcasts I get to do and I pulled up the wrong one, Mark. So, but that's no problem on my end.

[00:59:02]>> Little bit of a deer in the headlights there, but >> I talked about all that. Why are we going to talk about the crosses in the lawn? And I'm like, oh yeah, we did talk about that last time. Uh but it been probably 50 60 guests between that last conversation. So, forgive my ignorance and uh thank you for your grace. You're such an awesome church, Mark, and it's a it's a humbling thing to call you a friend and a partner in the gospel. This is lead time. Subscribe. Comment uh take take this in and maybe leave some some comments on what are you hearing that should shape what about the St. Lawrence story should shape us uh today. Uh there's so much there and and ultimately it is it is the grace and the mercy, the forgiveness of Christ that we need to extend to one another and then continue to do. And it is hard work. The hard work of remaining united in mission all for the sake of those who do not know Jesus are yet to come to faith in him.

[00:59:51]It's a good day. Going to make it a great day. We'll be back next week for another episode of of Lead Time. Thanks so much, Mark.

[00:59:56]>> Yep. God bless.

[00:59:57]>> You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop, and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods. To partner with us in this gospel message, subscribe to our channel. Then go to theiteleership.org to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's