The Empathy Paradigm | Anna Clark Miller | TNE Podcasts

本站添加: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]Hey friends, what's up? Welcome back to the podcast. I am Tim Whitaker, the host of the New Evangelicals podcast. On this episode, I interviewed Anna Clark Miller. She is a counselor. She wrote an amazing book, For God's Sake, Recovering from Religious Trauma. Honestly, this conversation was so good, so unexpected, but so good. We talk about a lot of things, not even directly related to therapy, but just about the general ideology that goes into high control religion, how we find it in ourselves, how we root it out, and how we hopefully heal and find better paths forward in our faith. I think you're really going to enjoy this. Anna is really wise, and I just had such a great time talking to her. As always, friends, don't forget about TN Connect. It's our private community space that's totally free to all of you. You can join by going online the new evangelicals.com/connect or you can download the app on iOS or on the Android store. It's a great great great space. We have tons of resources, tons of classes and of course that private community that is just such a beautiful space. So make sure to go check it out. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Talk to you'all later on.

[00:01:01]See you.

[00:01:29]Well, Anna Clark Miller, it's so good to have you on the podcast. Thank you for making time, especially last minute time. I I really appreciate it.

[00:01:36]Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:01:38]>> Absolutely. Tell me more about yourself.

[00:01:39]I mean, I can see here from your website, Empathy Paradigm, which we're going to dive into in a little bit here, that you wrote a book, For God's Sake, Recovering from Religious Trauma. Great title. And that you're a licensed counselor, author, and trainer offering education and recovery tools for survivors of religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and high control groups. So, a lot of folks listening are like, "Hey, I think I I'm part of that group in some capacity." So tell me more about you and what got you into this work.

[00:02:06]>> Yeah, so I am a therapist um professionally and because of my own religious trauma experiences, I noticed that there was kind of a a gap in the therapy world. Um there weren't a lot of therapists who really knew the term religious trauma or how to like approach that. In fact, I noticed a lot of therapists are really awkward um or they feel uncomfortable when spirituality or religion comes up and then when you add like religious harm to that equation, it just kind of feels like this uhoh, you know, like I don't know how to talk about this thing. And so it's been um my passion for the last uh 10 years or so um to raise awareness about what religious trauma is and make recovery hopefully more accessible for folks. And so that's why I wrote the book. Um and I also host my own podcast.

[00:03:10]It's called Martyr She Wrote. Um, and it's it's all about uh interviews with folks who have survived religious harm in some capacity and are looking for healing.

[00:03:20]>> Wow. I love that. That's also a great name. Martyr, she wrote is is is Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, that that's that's good to know. Um, you know, I think a lot of people get into maybe the space that you're in because of their own experience. That was my my last guest SC Neely also said the same thing when I was talking to them. So, I'm kind of curious for you. Did you grow up in like evangelical high control religion? Was it a different flavor? Like what's the story there?

[00:03:47]>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I grew up as a Southern Baptist missionary kid.

[00:03:54]>> Um, I was >> all the layers.

[00:03:57]>> All the layers. Yeah. So, I was I was raised overseas um in the Philippines um really isolated. I was homeschooled, you know, using kind of the official um Southern Baptist curriculum. Um and then when I graduated and moved uh to the US on my own, I ended up uh working in churches for about 10 years. That was kind of my first career. So I went to Bible college and then immediately went into ministry. Um, and then I experienced a whole different flavor of um, spiritual abuse, uh, especially in the mega church that I ended up um, working and volunteering at. And so it was it was interesting to experience um the control and the manipulation and the harm from two very sort of different settings >> but all using kind of the same shamebased um doctrine.

[00:05:05]And it took a while for me to connect my, you know, faith community experiences with the trauma responses that I was experiencing.

[00:05:19]>> Um, and once I did, it kind of was like, wow, so many pieces of the puzzle fell into place, you know, like things started making a lot more sense. But unfortunately that also meant that I had to um you know do a lot of work to uncover what was going on with me, what I needed to heal, and what kind of changes I needed to make in order to be safer in my own skin.

[00:05:48]>> I'm curious for you, and I like I like asking different folks in your profession this question. You know, what exactly is spiritual abuse? Um, I and I I asked that because I think especially the internet, you know, terms get thrown around kind of all the time. And I'm always curious like how we think about these terms because I would imagine, please correct me if I'm wrong, that there's kind of a spectrum of like where these things can land and like and like what exactly happened to each person individually. Um, and so when you use that term spiritual abuse, like what are you referring to? How do you talk about it with maybe clients or maybe in your book as well?

[00:06:25]>> Yeah. So, one of my favorite definitions of spirituality is it's an individual's um subjective search for the sacred.

[00:06:37]>> And so, you know, it's it's subjective meaning no one should tell you how to be spiritual in the right way. You know, it's it's your own journey and it's really personal. Um and so spiritual abuse typically happens when someone has perceived spiritual authority and power and then they use that power to undermine or erode another person's um journey towards that search for the sacred. Um and so usually that ends up harming their sense of autonomy or um you know making them feel really sort of existentially unsafe.

[00:07:24]>> Um and then that often becomes a tool of coercion. You know like if I tell you all these bad things that are going to happen to you, you're going to want to follow the rules that I'm giving you.

[00:07:36]Sounds like uh a combination of both of our journeys growing up because I I was also homeschooled as well and I grew up in uh more of like the John MacArthur flavor first of of theology and then I kind of moved over over to charismatic theology because I was a drummer and they had the better music uh later on in life. But you know there is that theme >> of and you almost don't even know it's happening in some cases where like you just assume that the pastor is the authority on on God's word and on morality and like kind of how they teach the Bible is just them giving you the plain meaning of the Bible which is of course is God's word and those do create mental um rooms in your in your head where like that person has a special place in your life that really guilt you or shame you into behaving certain ways based on the perceived authority that that you've given them based on their claims. Does that make sense?

[00:08:30]>> And so, >> absolutely.

[00:08:31]>> It's interesting thinking about what you just said. I'm like, yeah, I think I think a lot of people had church environments that were very hierarchical. Not in like a healthy, hey, you have to have leadership, right?

[00:08:42]We we that that's a part of life. But like in the hey, I am God's conduit to you and you better pay attention or else.

[00:08:51]Yeah. Yeah. And I think that intimidation piece makes it so that it's hard for you to spot when you're being mistreated because there's kind of, you know, we all want to believe that the person who has spiritual authority it is, you know, acting in our best interest. Um, but I think there's there's an added layer here of like sure there are some, you know, religious leaders who are narcissists and are, you know, overtly using their role um to exploit people, but I also think there are a lot of, you know, church leaders or religious parents out there who genuinely think that they are doing >> um what is in the best interest of another person, you like training up your kid, like really enforcing um submission and obedience. I, you know, I think it's understandable why parents would think, yeah, this is going to help my kid in the long run. Mhm.

[00:09:55]>> But when you mix kind of those um those control mechanisms with your belief in God, um you know, something that should be so safe and so personal and so free to engage with. Um it I think it it hurts someone not just on an emotional level, but on a spiritual level, too.

[00:10:20]>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm I'm not sure about you in your journey, but I will tell you for me, if I'm in a church that is healthy with a really healthy theology and they begin like um a worship song or if they begin communion, my body, I'm just like not ready for it still like all these years later. It's not because I don't want to be. I want to be I want to feel like I belong, but because of my own experience and how things went down at my at my last church, I don't know if I can really trust that feeling that I relied on all those years ago, right? So, even I'm now almost six years post my previous church experience, but that those moments still kind of bring it out of me.

[00:10:59]>> Yeah. I could not relate more. So, I was a worship leader at the mega church I was at.

[00:11:05]>> Okay. Great.

[00:11:06]>> Vocalist. Yeah.

[00:11:07]>> Drummer. Drummer over here. So, I understand. Nice.

[00:11:11]>> But yeah, anytime I hear worship songs, um it feels like uh almost like an electric current in my nervous system.

[00:11:22]Um and I just start having all these sort of like reactions that are hard to really describe, but it feels really visceral. And that to me is the definition of trauma, right? It's like your nervous system is responding to a reminder of something that really deeply deeply impacted your sense of safety. Um but but yeah, I I can so relate to that.

[00:11:48]And I think um you know as far as the other spiritual impacts for me, I noticed even when I was all the way in, you know, like volunteering at church four times a week and like working there, you know, 60 hours a week and getting vastly underpaid, I still felt like um I'm sorry I lost my train of thought.

[00:12:15]>> Oh, you're totally good. No, you're to it happens to me all the time. I understand. I mean, just to kind of riff off of like what you're talking about because I feel that as a drummer in that space and I I'm not sure about you, but when I came out of it and if I could be honest, I I miss playing. I really do.

[00:12:32]Like I miss being in that head space and just like I miss the rhythm. I miss the ritual, frankly, of doing that. I did it for so long. And I almost feel like an extra sense, I'm not going to say guilt, but I I feel a certain type of way over the fact that I was part of this sugar rush moment for people that many of which believed this was God working supernaturally, breaking their chain, so to speak. And look, music is manipulative inherently. I don't think that I don't I don't think that that's a bad thing. But when you when you put a veneer of no, this is supernatural. this moment God is doing something special and then you feel like you are broken free from whatever sin you're struggling with and then the next day you're back to it.

[00:13:14]>> That creates a really weird headsp space where you're like I don't get it. I could have swore that I was set free at the altar uh while the band was doing this song and I'm back in my situation that I find so much shame in.

[00:13:26]>> I kind of feel um unintentionally but still complicit in creating those moments for people that probably caused them a lot of confusion ultimately.

[00:13:34]>> Agreed. I I wrestle with that a lot, you know, like just feeling like I was both a victim and a perpetrator, you know, of harm. And and I think, you know, part of that speaks to the high control system, too, where you're told like in order to be safe from, you know, abuse from people above you on the hierarchy, you need to play the game and you need to perpetuate that and you need to, you know, keep it going. And I think, you know, something that really helped me sort of conceptualize this was a a tool in counseling called the cycle of abuse.

[00:14:17]Um, okay.

[00:14:18]>> It essentially, you know, was originally made for folks who are in like uh one-on-one abusive relationships and it's sort of like the cycle of what happens, but I think it happens in groups, too. And the idea is that you're kind of in the system. You're trying to play along. You're trying to make sure that you don't get in trouble or make waves. And then something abusive is said or done, you know, like you're told that you're worthless as a human being without God, you know, or something like that. And then there's this quick transition into let's reconcile, let's have unity as a group. And then the last stage is this euphoria of feeling like lovebombed basically, >> you know, and that manipulation you were talking about in worship that can feel like, wow, this is so great.

[00:15:11]>> I feel so, you know, um, accepted and loved in a way that I never thought I would be. And I was just told that like I don't even deserve this and yet I'm getting it.

[00:15:22]>> This is so beautiful. And it makes you more likely to put up with more abuse in the future because every time it happens, you get lovebombed afterwards and you feel like, well, it's all worth it. Mh.

[00:15:38]>> Um, and I think I I both experienced that and inadvertently I think was part of creating that, you know, literal come to Jesus moment, you know, of >> facilitating people feeling like, wow, this is something really, really special and meaningful and therefore even if I feel like I'm being harmed, it must still be good for me because it feels good.

[00:16:06]>> Yeah, for sure. And I I guess while we're on the topic of worship music as two people who were in that space, it's not too often I guess someone like you on on this on the show. Um I'm not sure for you, but for me, I wish that the songs I sung were lived I wish that those lyrics were were lived out in the church. Like you know these you sing these songs about about God's unconditional love and how much God, you know, God's reckless love. And I think the frustrating part for me looking back is like if I was in an inclusive like loving justiceoriented community that really cared about the marginalized like they said I probably would have never have left because things were completely congruent, right? Like I I kind of had the dream I'm playing in this beautiful environment. It's very professional which as a musician I love. And I'm singing these songs that are beautiful and evoke a sense of awe and wonder. And we're loving the people that the songs talk about, right? But instead, what's so frustrating is that you have this like moment where you realize, wait a second, these songs that we sing about God's love are actually conditional towards certain people groups. Like, if you're queer, that's a problem. You have to repent of that. If you're a liberal, you're probably way too far gone, you know, etc. And I I think like I I just sometimes I I dream about, you know, the ultimate, you know, progressive mega church, which which would probably never make any sense, but I'm like, "Oh, man.

[00:17:28]I just wish that these songs like that people practice what they preach cuz what a beautiful thing it would be. What a glimpse of heaven on earth it would be. You know, it's just interesting. I think about that sometimes.

[00:17:39]>> I don't know.

[00:17:40]>> And I think I think there are some churches out there who have managed to create an authentic environment where it's not about conformity or, you know, conditional acceptance, you know. And there's, you know, definitely some uh more progressive denominations that I think do that better than others. But going back to what we were talking about earlier with that like spiritual damage, I think >> Yeah.

[00:18:06]>> I have a deep cynicism in me now.

[00:18:10]>> Yep. that I that makes it I think almost impossible for me to trust any community no matter how wellcrafted their mission statement is, you know, like I I just don't believe it.

[00:18:28]>> Yeah.

[00:18:29]>> Um and and that's sad. That that makes me sad for me that like I can't have that thing that was so important for my entire life growing up.

[00:18:41]>> Yeah.

[00:18:41]>> But at the same time, I don't want to get burned again. I don't want to bait and switch again, you know, where I'm told I'm going to get something great and instead I get, you know, monitored and criticized and shamed. I don't I don't want that in my life.

[00:18:58]>> No, I'm I'm with you. Maybe that's a good a good point to kind of unpack for a minute with you being you know who you are in the work that you do because I would imagine people listening are probably all over the spectrum. There are probably some who are like I I want to take the risk again but I don't really know if I can. There are some more closer to me and you where I'm like I am so cynical of these institutions like I want to believe but I'm not sure if I can. What what's your like you know how if someone was talking to you or if you're talking to a group a group of people who kind of had a spectrum of this what would be some general advice and wisdom you would offer them as they kind of navigate for themselves if if if it's worth taking the risk and finding a spiritual community again and being aware etc. >> Yeah. So, in my writing, um, and then as my work as a trainer for therapists who work with religious trauma, I try and be what I call religiously neutral. And essentially, that means that I'm not promoting a pro or anti-religious agenda because >> so much of religious trauma is about having your autonomy taken away from you, right? like you don't really get to choose what feels good and what feels like a subjective search for the sacred.

[00:20:14]Instead, you're being controlled. And so, I think the last thing that you know is going to be helpful for someone who's experienced that kind of harm is having anybody in a position of of authority saying you should do this or you shouldn't do this, especially when it comes to your own beliefs. And you know, it's it's hard to trust your own experience if you're so busy listening to somebody else telling you how to do it the right way. And so I think if if folks are recovering from religious harm, whether they want to hold on to their faith, whether they want to walk away from it completely or anything in between, I would encourage them to start listening to themsel more than they're listening to the perceived experts in their life. because ultimately your body um has wisdom that you're not you're missing out on that if you are shutting out your body especially if you're you've been you know indoctrinated to believe that like all of your instincts are bad or sinful.

[00:21:24]>> Yes.

[00:21:25]>> And that is what ultimately puts you in a situation where you're not safe because you're not listening to those threat responses that are showing up.

[00:21:34]And so whether you know somebody wants to explore being part of a religious community again or not, I think if they are in tune with how they're feeling and what they're experiencing, they're going to be able to tell, does this feel safe or does this feel like a recreation of what I've experienced before, you know?

[00:21:56]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. I think anytime you become part of a community, especially a religious one, you always risk getting hurt, right? I mean, I think friendships, relationships, there's always risk of someone getting hurt in that relationship. The question is, is is that risk worth it to you? And that answer is going to vary upon a million different factors, you know, and I also think a lot a lot of the data that I've seen does suggest that healthy spirituality actually is really good.

[00:22:23]It's really good for your mental health.

[00:22:24]It's it has really positive outcomes. So certainly there is room I think for people you know to engage a really healthy vibrant spiritual uh life that is part of a healthy community that that knows how to fight well so to speak right like like like there's good conflict then there's the bad conflict and I think any healthy friendship or relationship will have moments where you have to have a hard conversation of offense that's very different than a system that's set up on well I'm in charge I'm not accountable in any way shape or form you are always wrong so follow and listen or Right? Or even just a system that says we are the only place where wisdom can be found.

[00:23:04]>> That's good.

[00:23:04]>> We are the only place where truth can be found. Like that is a scary like you know launching pad because then >> you you don't have to listen to anything that you know people who are doing research on this topic have to say because you know they're outsiders. Um, and I think, you know, especially growing up homeschooled, as I'm sure you can relate, there's a lot of like being told like, yeah, secular science is going to tell you things that are lies, and you can't listen to that. You can't let that influence you.

[00:23:42]>> And that just sets you up to be harmed and to not have any other information to use to protect yourself from that manipulation.

[00:23:53]>> Yeah. I mean, hello, a Becca curriculum, you know.

[00:23:56]>> So, yeah, I mean, for I was I was definitely taught six day creationism uh my whole life. And I think to to kind of connect this to the broader cultural moment that we're in. I think that is why the source of the MAGA movement really is in white evangelicalism because white evangelicalism as a as a complex web of theology and politics does create I I call it the basement of Christianity. It's it is this underground world where you have these gatekeepers who are constantly interpreting above ground for you without showing you above ground. Right?

[00:24:32]So you need to be afraid of the secularists, be afraid of of the scientists, be afraid of whatever else.

[00:24:38]And then the MAGA movement is really based on that politically, right? Don't trust uh you know what what the what what the doctors say about vaccines. RFK knows the truth. You know, don't trust big farmer. Don't trust this. So I I see a direct connection correlation so to speak between these people uh groups because it's the same ideology just repurposed for political gains. And I think that's why 80% of white evangelicals still support Trump no matter what he says or does.

[00:25:08]>> I totally agree. I think though I don't know that that is specific to evangelical Christianity. I think we're seeing a flavor of it that has been seen in a lot of different faiths in a lot of different countries and settings for all of human history. Yes.

[00:25:28]>> I think anytime you have, you know, that sort of religious like corporate like let's figure out how to connect with God together thing and then when you combine that with a political agenda of any kind, it's going to get messy because people are going to start twisting, you know, scripture to say what they want it to say or they're going to start using it to say, "Yeah, you have to vote for this person and not that person. Um, and yeah, it's so problematic and and it it's so disappointing that like you were saying earlier, the words of those songs are so positive, you know, at least not all of them, but >> Right.

[00:26:12]>> But a lot of the sentiments are really positive and yet are so misaligned with the, you know, political um, agenda that it's being paired with.

[00:26:24]>> Yeah. 100%. And I think it's a great point uh to make that you know uh fundamentalism is not exclusive to white evangelicalism right that can exist anywhere uh because where where there are humans these kinds of paradigms can exist and at the same time I know we're in agreement here unfortunately in America the white evangelical group is the loudest and most powerfully funded that's causing so much hell on earth which as people who came out of that movement I know we feel a certain way about that you know it's just like it's incredibly discouraging to watch people that raised you like turn around and say, "Hey, I know I taught you that Jesus loves the children of the world, but I also support Trump bombing them right now in Iran." And I'm like, I don't understand how these things are supposed to be intertwined. It's just, you know, I'm not going to rant here.

[00:27:10]It's not, you know, this is an interview, but it's just like, wow. I just can't believe it. It's crazy to me.

[00:27:14]It's wild. you know, way back before Trump was even, you know, a a politician at least. Um when I first moved to the US and the very first time I attended um church on a uh July 4th weekend, I was so appalled at like the the blatant worship of America.

[00:27:42]um like almost like you know it's God and America you know they're synonymous right and I that was just something that I had never been exposed to having you know lived in a different country and it was so shocking to me >> looking around and seeing like yeah people are worshiping to you know these America songs the exact way that they do to Jesus songs and it it was really mindblowing for me >> I I believe that coming out of one world than entering another where it's like for me that was normalized. I've drummed to God Bless America more times than I can count, but I it was just normal, right? But you're right. Looking back, I'm like, wait a second. I thought I was supposed to pledge allegiance to Jesus, not not to the American flag. Why were we both up on stage? You know, >> um let's I you know, your your website's called Empathy Paradigm. I love that.

[00:28:30]Let's talk about empathy. I mean, that seems to be a hot button topic for some reason today in our cultural psyche.

[00:28:36]It's interesting that we're in a moment now where people are debating this notion of toxic empathy or empathy being a sin, which is what Joe Riggnney uh says. He calls it the sin of empathy.

[00:28:46]What are your thoughts on on this idea of empathy in general? But you know, toxic empathy, can it can that be a thing? Can empathy actually be toxic?

[00:28:55]I'm kind of curious to hear your thoughts on that. And then just your general response to this whole conversation that culture is having over this this word.

[00:29:03]So I think empathy is not toxic. I think inherently it's about desentering yourself.

[00:29:13]>> And I think that is threatening to a authoritarian system, right? Because it's saying, hey, what you perceive is good because it's good for you doesn't mean that's going to be good or that's going to feel loving to somebody else.

[00:29:30]And so you have to desenter yourself.

[00:29:31]And to do that, an authoritarian system essentially has to break down. And so, it's not surprising to me at all >> to hear, you know, all of this stuff about, you know, the the sin of empathy because I think it's just a a way to respond to a threat to the dogma, you know, that that is more convenient for them to, you know, share. And so to me, empathy is about not not stepping into someone else's shoes because that means I'm still thinking like me, >> but instead it's just hearing the story of where someone came from, what their experiences have been, and trying to understand why does their why do their choices make sense to them based on where they've been and what they've been through. Um, and when you really kind of suspend your own ego long enough to do that, >> it's really hard to hate other people.

[00:30:39]>> I'm letting this sink in. That's good. I mean, that's maybe one of the best, you know, uh, explanators on empathy and the idea of desentering yourself.

[00:30:48]H, and that makes a lot of sense, right?

[00:30:50]That makes sense why empathy would be under attack in in the religious MAGA right right now because it forces you to hold space for someone else's experience and to acknowledge that experience is not your experience and that's not inherently bad but in a world of high control where God has said it you know and there and that settles it kind of attitude and these people think that they are really speaking on behalf of the creator of the universe and have that God's moral compass locked in you know it makes sense why they to see empathy as being something that is toxic or sinful.

[00:31:24]>> And I think, you know, a lot of this is driven by the sort of like um resource scarcity mindset that humans have had since day one. you know, it's like there's not enough to go around, so I need to get mine, which means I need to not feel too compassionate towards other people, you know, like I don't want to hear their sad story too much because that will make me feel bad about not sharing with them. And I think, you know, ultimately that's what we're seeing with Christian nationalism is this idea of you don't need to listen to the hard experiences of other people.

[00:32:04]That doesn't matter. You deserve what it is that you have, you know, and you you shouldn't have to give it away. And I think like empathy is inconvenient for us.

[00:32:17]>> But it's also I think ultimately what literally makes the world a better place.

[00:32:23]>> Yeah.

[00:32:24]>> And I know there have been times in my life where people have had empathy for me that easily could have chosen not to.

[00:32:34]And I'm so glad they did. And so I'm just I feel like for me since since leaving an organized religion, empathy has been a way for me to think about loving other people in a way that isn't just showing the love that I like to receive, but actually asking what feels loving to them in their shoes, in their experiences.

[00:33:01]>> Yeah. Now I I as you're talking I was thinking about situation in my own life um when my brain broke almost a decade ago and it was folks while I was in the middle of panic attacks and you know scary thoughts and all that stuff for the first time like just trying to take it all in. It was folks who extended empathy and who were really patient and really graceful and super kind and were like hey you know we understand I've been there. That kind of attitude was like really helpful for me. And what I didn't need to hear was oh just pray more like there must be some unrepentant sin in your life. you know that that was not going to help cuz I tried that already. Like I did try to pray it away.

[00:33:34]I did read the Bible verses and I was still having panic attacks, you know.

[00:33:38]But yeah, I I I wonder, >> you know, just how much um better the world will be would be if empathy was, you know, um a cultural rallying cry instead of the something that's being targeted by people to make the word world more and more cruel, which I mean obviously that's why it's happening, right? The reason why they're targeting empathy, to your point, is the less you can feel for someone else who isn't like you, the easier it is to dehumanize them and see them as less than you. Right.

[00:34:06]And the result is what we're seeing today.

[00:34:10]>> Yeah. And, you know, growing up as a missionary kid, I got to see up >> close and personal what evangelism looks like when it's not um framed through empathy. because instead, you know, my parents um and and so many people like them went to third world countries that were desperate for basic resources and instead of providing those things, they told them about Jesus >> and they told them, "Hey, the version of worshiping Jesus, by the way, the Philippines is primarily Catholic. They said that's not the right way. You need to do it this way." How unempathetic is that?

[00:34:53]>> Yeah.

[00:34:54]>> People are starving, you know, they need antibiotics, they need housing, they need clean water, and we're saying, "No, no, no, no, no. You need to just worship the right Jesus, the white Jesus, you know, and like that just was I think there was a lot of moral injury seeing the harm that was done in the name of ostensibly helping people and bringing them good news.

[00:35:20]Did you notice that when you were actually in it as, you know, as a missionary kid or did you realize that more afterwards when you kind of got out of that basement? It was like, "Oh my god, like I whoa, this was way worse than I imagined?"

[00:35:33]>> Both. I think I felt deeply uncomfortable during throughout my childhood, but I don't think I had the language to understand like what it was that was happening. And then it was, you know, in early adulthood that I started really kind of breaking down. Okay. What was it that felt so icky about that situation?

[00:35:55]>> Yeah.

[00:35:55]>> And, you know, even going on mission trips as an adult, I would feel uncomfortable and guilty.

[00:36:01]>> Yeah.

[00:36:02]>> And just, you know, it just took a long time to sort of parse out like what is it that we are doing here >> that doesn't actually feel helpful or loving, >> right? Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I I I did uh three months in Europe. Um it wasn't like for uh humanitarian reasons.

[00:36:20]It was just helping out different churches, but I did do the very typical white man Dominican Republic mission trip as always. How could you not? And even there, I remember feeling like I don't know, man. This just feels off.

[00:36:33]Like I I'm happy that we're here to like, you know, get these kids candy.

[00:36:36]Like that's super nice and give them a hug, but like is this is this it? Like my goal is just to tell them about Jesus so that way they don't burn in hell forever. like I >> I don't know, like there's got to be more going on. And so I I always had a hard time with evangelism. I always felt like like a bad Christian because I I I didn't witness to my friends all the time. I just felt weird about it. I just felt weird. Um and maybe that was my body telling me something is up before I even knew what it was.

[00:37:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. Also, I think not every personality type is cut out to be an evangelist. And there was a lot of shame just for being an introvert, you know, when I was growing up. It's like, >> "What do you mean you don't want to strike up conversations about Jesus with random strangers all the time?

[00:37:19]>> What's wrong with you? How could you not?"

[00:37:22]>> My wife is way more introverted these days and I'm obviously, as I'm sure you can tell, more extroverted, but the more we've been married, the more the more we've kind of crossed over. So, when I'm like not doing this work, I am much more internal than I ever was. And she's a little more external. But yeah, I I get that as being married to an introvert, the the idea of her talking to people, especially strangers, is like, are you kidding me? Like, why in in in God's green earth would I ever do such a crazy thing? So, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:37:50]>> Yeah, absolutely.

[00:37:51]>> So, you know, as we get ready to kind of wrap up, and again, I I appreciate making time and coming on the show. This has been really a really great conversation. I I I always like asking my guests for, you know, for like practical things for people who are listening. I I know a lot of folks listening are going through this stuff and they're probably in all different stages of we can call it deconstruction, right? Some are are just getting above ground for the first time. Others have been here for a minute. And I think the longer I've been doing this work and doing my own inner work, the more I've realized just how deep the roots of my religious upbringing really go and how much they affect me, even in ways I wasn't aware of even a month ago. Right?

[00:38:28]And so besides therapy, which I think is always beautiful and always good. I love my therapist. What would you recommend for people who maybe are curious about doing some of this work and just kind of maybe a little like self test, a little self-evaluation? What are some steps you recommend for people to kind of, you know, think about how they grew up and how how it affected them?

[00:38:47]>> Yeah. So, you you mentioned earlier I recently launched a book. It's called For God's Sake Recovering from Religious Trauma. And I literally wrote this book with people in mind who are trying to figure out, do I have religious trauma?

[00:39:05]>> And can I trust a therapist with this?

[00:39:08]>> Yeah.

[00:39:08]>> Because I know that I had a lot of skepticism about therapists, especially after going to a lot of faith-based therapists that really just kind of gave me scripture. Um, and so there are lots of inventories that I put in this book of ways for you to just read and self-reflect on does this match my experience instead of being told this is your experience and this is how to heal from it. So it's very sort of self-led.

[00:39:37]But one of the, you know, biggest things that I think was helpful for me, especially early in my recovery journey, was to realize that curiosity >> is not a bad thing. It's not a dangerous thing. And so being curious about, you know, what were those feelings of in congruence that were coming up for me as a kid, you know, in evangelism or what are those physical reactions that I'm having when I hear worship music or why do I assume that, you know, whatever doctrine thing is the only truth and there's no possible, you know, other thing to consider like just letting letting myself break out of rigid thinking.

[00:40:24]>> Yes.

[00:40:25]>> And giving myself permission to explore, to have questions maybe that don't have answers. Um, that was huge on on a lot of different levels. Um, so I would definitely encourage that. I also would encourage folks to think about the social dynamics that were normalized in their religious community, especially if it was a really high control community. It's possible that there are some dysfunctional ways of relating to other people or even to authority figures that might be so normalized to you that you don't even realize, hey, this is still showing up in how I relate to other people and it's blocking me from having that autonomy to say no thank you or I think I'd rather not go to that service with you, mom and dad or or whatever boundary it is. Um, and so kind of being curious about your thinking and about your relationships is a great start.

[00:41:30]>> I really want to echo that, especially the curiosity part. That was such a paradigm shift for me in my own journey.

[00:41:37]I mean, God, I was so I have I have so many cringe moments of being an an evangelical small group guy of like holding my friends accountable to purity standard. I mean, it's it's like the level of judgment that I had on people.

[00:41:51]I I I I I saw it as helping, but I was just judgmental. There's just no way around it. And shifting my paradigm from that to curiosity.

[00:42:02]>> Wow. Like my world went from black and white to color, you know? And now I I'm like, why would you not want to be curious? Why would you not want even if you don't agree, even if it's not for you, why not at least understand it and try and and see how someone else sees it before you move on, right? I just can't fathom, >> yeah, >> you know, thinking about how I used to think. And then of course there are moments where I find myself thinking like that like oh gotta gotta catch that. But the curiosity piece is so key.

[00:42:26]I I I second that immensely. I mean it's it's a huge game changer for sure.

[00:42:32]>> Yeah. And you know you were talking about remembering being so judgmental of other people and I think it's important to remember that you were probably just as judgmental of yourself.

[00:42:43]>> Yes, I was.

[00:42:44]>> And so again it's that perpetuation of harm, right? You didn't invent those mechanisms of control and shame. You experienced them internally and replicated them externally. And so like I think a big part of recovering from religious trauma is self-compassion.

[00:43:03]It's learning to say this is what I was taught was truth. This is what I was taught was for the greater good. And so I can have regrets and say I wish I hadn't done that or I wish I hadn't been a part of that. But also have so much compassion for that, you know, kid who was raised under those same purity culture limitations and those same judgments, you know, from other people because the the control that you exert outside is usually just an echo of what you're expecting of yourself.

[00:43:40]I'm not going to lie, Anna. I wasn't ready for a counseling session to happen during the interview, but I will take it because that is really good wisdom. I'm like, I'm being read like a book. But no, you're right. I was and I am very internally judgmental of myself. I I always have been. And that's a great connection that I have not made before.

[00:43:57]So, thank you for that. I'm sure people listening will find that helpful. Also, um if folks want to find your work, I mean, do you do social media? Do you have a a public presence? Please plug all of your socials away so folks can find you and follow you.

[00:44:10]>> Yeah. So, um main place I definitely um uh have curated a lot of resources on my website. It's empathyparadigm.com.

[00:44:21]>> Um and you can learn more about my book there and more about my work. if you're a a therapist or a mental health practitioner of any kind and you want continuing education, um I offer trainings through Empathy Paradigm. And then yeah, I'm on socials, Anna Clark Miller, um at all the usual suspects. Um so feel free to follow me there. And then of course, if you want to hear more sort of conversational discussion like what we've talked about today, my podcast, Martyr, she Wrote is is something to check out.

[00:44:53]>> I love it. Well, thank you so much, Anna, for joining me on the show. It was really great. I hope we do it again soon.

[00:44:58]>> Yeah, it was great to be here. Thank you.