Democracia no Ar | Bergson Gurjão, Frei Tito e outros terão certidões de óbito retificadas

Added: 2026-05-20

[00:00:00]Hello, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening to everyone.

[00:00:10]Democracy is in the air. It's participatory democracy. Democracy is in the air. It's participatory democracy. Democracy is in the air. It's participatory democracy.

[00:00:28]From now on, here at Rádio e TV Atitude Popular, we form the Ceará Network of Popular Communication for the transmission of the program Democracy on Air, conceived by the Participatory Democracy movement.

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[00:01:05]Produced by Paula Bandeira, technical narration by me, Jonathan Neto, general direction of Rádio e TV Atitude Popular is by Souza Júnior. Democracy is on the air for you, for us: the program Democracy on the Air.

[00:01:25]Saragóis Presentation.

[00:01:27]Good morning.

[00:01:40]Good morning, everyone. Good morning to everyone who follows us on social media. My name is Sara Gois. Today's the day, I'll even check it out here, okay? Today is May 19, 2026. I want to say good morning to Beto Wer, who's in our chat. He asks like this: "Good morning, Sara. Good morning, Biapino. Inocêncio Shoa. He's Marcelo Shoa's father.

[00:02:05]I find this reference funny, folks, because Dr. Inocêncio Shoa is a retired labor judge, right? A great political activist, he was a political prisoner, and he's even involved in very important historical events, including the War of the Chestnut Trees, which is a subject I love and that's rarely talked about or known in Brazil. Even in Ceará, people don't know much about it, right? But lately he's known as Marcelo's father. I find these twists and turns that life takes very interesting. Marcelo is very well-known on social media because of his work as a commentator on various channels, including 247, where I think he's a regular, right, on the 11 o'clock news segment. And he's a very charismatic figure, right? People really like Marcelo. Well, you're going to see a copy of Marcelo here, you know?

[00:02:57]In fact, Marcelo is..." "That's a copy of Dr. Inocencio, right, since he's his son. They are two very active people, especially active in this issue of memory, justice, and human rights. The theme of today's program is precisely about that. On the 21st, here in Fortaleza, Aless will hold a ceremony to rectify the death certificates of victims of the military dictatorship. The following day, a similar event will take place in Recife. That is to say, we are seeing in this last year of Lula's government this intense movement to make this historical reparation.

[00:03:33]Even if it's very late, it is a historical reparation. And among the figures whose death certificates will be rectified, we have Frei Tito and Berkson Gurjão, who would have turned 79 this weekend. It was one of the most striking and cruel deaths we know of during the military dictatorship. He was murdered in the Araguaia guerrilla war. And Frei Tito also has one of the most striking stories, because it involves a whole issue of anguish..." Right? He took his own life, deeply affected by the torture and injustices he witnessed during that period of the military dictatorship. And although we're talking about memory here, it's a very current issue, because we have important figures on our planet right now trying to create a regression in various countries. And I 'm not just talking about Donald Trump, who seems to have taken a step back in diplomatic matters. I'm talking about internally, in our own country. This issue of the film Dark Ross revealed that there was very robust funding.

[00:04:45]Who knows what for, but we can imagine what it 's about, right? Well, today is Tuesday, it's our dear Ipiapino's day. I'm going to get you both on board because we have a lot to talk about.

[00:04:59]Good morning, Biatino. Good morning, Dr. Inocente.

[00:05:04]Good morning, Sara. Good morning, S.

[00:05:06]Good morning also to Dr. Inocêncio and to all the listeners, the friends of the radio stations that rebroadcast the Democracy on Air program. Big hug. Let's move on.

[00:05:20]Good morning, Sara. Good morning, Biapino. Good morning, Jonathan. Good morning to everyone listening and watching right now. I do n't have a microphone. I'm going to ask Dr. Inocêncio Show to explain this movement happening in Ceará and Pernambuco as well. Other states are doing similar things. Who is organizing this, and what is the importance, Dr. Inocêncio, of rectifying death certificates 50 years late?

[00:05:54]Ah, so it 's a movement, uh, it's a whole effort that has been made since the 80s and 90s, not only to recover the bodies of the disappeared, but also their stories, how their deaths occurred, where they were killed, how they were killed, in short, because you know that a good part of the political activists who fought, especially in urban and rural guerrillas against the military regime, against the dictatorship, a good part of them were murdered, right? They did n't even get to be... Those who were formally imprisoned, in the sense of having a judicial process, answering to it, going to jail and everything else, were simply tortured and shot, and their bodies disappeared. And of course, without death certificates, the families—there are still about 40, many, I don't know exactly, just from the Araguaia warrior there are more than 40, more than 50 missing, right, whose bodies haven't been located and so on. So, the Ministry of Human Rights has been making a very large effort to, let's say, intensify, right, the recovery of these stories. And one of these aspects of this effort is, let's say, the issuance of death certificates for those who are missing and the rectification of death certificates that were previously made incorrectly, right? They were made as if they were suicides, deaths because they had participated in a shootout, or natural deaths and so on. So it's a matter of historical recovery, and it's not only being done in Fortaleza and Pernambuco. No, not throughout Brazil. In our case, it will be done here on the 21st, Thursday, right? There will be a solemn session in the Legislative Assembly Chamber, and 12 certificates will be delivered here, including those of Frei Tito and Bxo Jean Faris. They are two students, two people from Ceará, right, who were victims of the war against the guerrilla and the struggle before the dictatorship, right? And in Pernambuco, there will be 52 people. Pernambuco has a much broader process of struggle against the oppression of the dictatorship and everything else.

[00:08:25]I myself was imprisoned in Pernambuco. So that 's it. In short, that's it, it's an effort. And here on Thursday will be the Minister of Human Rights, but also the prosecutor, the Federal Prosecutor for Human Rights, Eugênia Gonzaga, uh, Vera Paiva, daughter of Rubens Paiva, who is a, a, a, how do you say, a notorious...he's a political disappeared person and a series of other people, both nationally and locally, at the Legislative Assembly session.

[00:09:00]Very good to know. It's going to be something like that, because of these names that Dr. Inocêncio and SH listed, we imagine it will be an event that will attract a lot of attention. Just to add here, Natália Bonavides will also be here in Fortaleza because of the death certificate of her uncle, which will also be rectified. Uh, I'm going to pass the word here to Ibiapino, because Ibiapino, I'm very anxious to hear your comments on this subject, because it has a whole connection with what we see around the world, right?

[00:09:34]Ibiapino is a person very connected to these geopolitical issues, literally connected, right? Because I was even receiving a phone call just now, right? Ibiapino from outside the country. And Ibiapino is a great activist, for example, against the sanctions that are imposed on the island of Cuba. And Biapino, do you see these connections between these resistance movements and these movements that try to expand injustice and the implementation of dictatorship, but in different formats?

[00:10:10]Sara, yes, these are very important movements that had a lot of strength during the Lula and Dilma governments, and now they continue, but they paused during the government of that ignorant vermin, because then everything that was humane ceased.

[00:10:36]Here we have the Truth Commission, Dr. Inocenso, people didn't want me to participate in the program today.

[00:10:43]When I was about to go on the program, Machado called me saying he wanted me to read a book, *The Republic of the Militias*.

[00:10:54]Then Bruno Manso, right? I hung up three times, I said, no, I have to answer because otherwise I can't talk on the program and he'll keep trying all the time.

[00:11:05]Oh, then he wanted to give me this book and then I was already here. Then I have a group, it's a group from several Latin American countries and yesterday we agreed to have a meeting today.

[00:11:17]Then I said, it has to be before... 10 or after 11. Then they called me exactly at 10:03.

[00:11:26]I didn't even answer, no, I won't be at that meeting. But throughout Latin America there were many atrocities. In Brazil it was a terrible thing.

[00:11:36]The coup d'état in Brazil was carried out by the United States, in Brazil, in Argentina, in the Dominican Republic, in Ecuador.

[00:11:43]First it was in Ecuador and then in all the countries where it happened. The coup was organized by the CIA. I have all the evidence here for anyone who wants to see it. And it 's 100% verbatim evidence.

[00:11:57]Everything, everything, everything. The agents who coordinated this coup in Latin America, the agents who were here in Brazil, the infiltrators who were in the political parties and in the student groups.

[00:12:10]And it's very important that these movements continue for the youth who don't know how difficult life was for these people. Dr. Inocenso is here with us, he had to leave the country, right? Because otherwise Geraldo Vandré, who sang that song "Na rua soldados armados" (In the streets, armed soldiers), would have died. No, almost all of them were lost, weapons in hand, and he became... Today he's a person with psychological problems just because he sang that song and the guys found out—the guys I'm talking about, the criminals in the Brazilian Armed Forces— discovered that the song was a critique of the military dictatorship. Roberto Carlos sings that other song, "Under the Curls," "Your hair has a story to tell, of a land so distant, but one day your feet will tread on the white sand." It was another disguised song, because... I don't remember now, but he's the most famous singer in the world, brother of Gilberto Gil. And he was also exiled from the country. Gilberto Gil, everyone was persecuted, the artists, the students, and the activists who defended democracy.

[00:13:27]And what do they do? Because criminals can... you can't expect anything good.

[00:13:32]They... they... they characterized our people as terrorists because they fought against the dictatorship. We... we defend democracy.

[00:13:46]He was at this international meeting of nations, Sara, which Lula participated in, and he came out... Very good in all the debates. The president of Mexico, Claudia Chimbau, uh uh uh Pardo, and in her speech, Dr. Inocenso, she had a very important phrase, you know? She said the following: "There is no democracy if there is no option for the poor." That is, if the majority of the world's people, and in the case of Brazil, don't have options for those people, there is no democracy. So, that's why there were great struggles, people who even lost their lives, others lost their freedom, others even lost their mental health because of all those problems. I mean, they took, they staged a coup in Brazil to guarantee the United States' control of our land, right? Because what did the United States want? A puppet government, right, to carry out the interests of the United States, they wanted cheap resources and they wanted the prevalence of brutal capitalism in any way. So these were heroic peoples, these struggles are important. It's great that the program is publicizing this, that people can be there at the assembly to learn how difficult life was and to fight so that there is never again a dictatorship. We want democracy.

[00:15:27]Democracy is a supreme good for human beings in any territory of the world.

[00:15:35]Saris, your statement, Ibapino, is important because we're connecting it to something recent, right? About two years ago, the film "I'm Still Here" was made, which drew a lot of attention from young people to what the military dictatorship was like.

[00:15:53]A part of the youth who didn't know the weight of the military dictatorship learned about it from the repercussions of this film. Then came "The Secret Agent," which brought another perspective, another point of view, because the military dictatorship isn't talked about much in the Northeast. So, that 's also interesting. And now we see the possibility, because it's still a possibility, of the release of a film that's a mix of fiction and the narrative of former president Bolsonaro, who is a great denier of this period of the military dictatorship. And Based on the revelations made by The Intercept Brasil, Dr. Inocêncio, it became very clear that there was no commitment to the release. Oh, did Dr. Inocêncio fall? Is he listening? Are you listening?

[00:16:45]I think he received a phone call.

[00:16:48]Terrible.

[00:16:48]Impossible.

[00:16:50]Terrible. Are you listening?

[00:16:52]I'm listening, but I can't see. But it's okay. Look, I need to talk about this.

[00:16:57]Dr. Inocêncio, just to conclude here, it became very clear, right, that there was no commitment to the release of the film, that perhaps the film was to finance something that we don't yet know what it is. I wanted your comment on this, on how cinema is being used by this family, right, that so vehemently denies the military dictatorship.

[00:17:15]Hello, hello. Are you listening? You have the floor.

[00:17:23]We are listening, doctor.

[00:17:27]Can you hear me well? Excuse me, we are listening.

[00:17:36]Yes, he's having a problem with the connection. He has a computer issue... Beapino, every time he tries to enter, he doesn't authorize microphones and cameras. Then he tried to enter via cell phone and is having this problem.

[00:17:51]Uh, but I'll pass the word to you until he arrives and Beapino can comment on this, because there is this suspicion, right, that the film was being used to finance something else, perhaps a coup, right, a new coup attempt.

[00:18:12]The interests of this group are all dirty, right? We can't specify now what the dirty dealings behind the film are. Now, what 's important to understand is that it's all dirty, all a plot to deceive people.

[00:18:36]And thankfully, The Intercept has been doing a good job, you know, going there and uncovering the secrets of these scoundrels. Look how much of a scoundrel Flávio Bolsonaro is.

[00:18:49]A reporter from The Intercept Brazil who had already discovered Dr. Inocência arrived, okay?

[00:18:57]I would very much like to comment that I had already discovered the plot. Ask Flávio Bolsonaro, look, the Master Bank.

[00:19:07]He financed a film by his father, then he made a sarcastic remark and said: "Liar, where did you find that out?"

[00:19:14]A week later he had to say that the bank really did finance his father and they were attributing all this problem to the bank. To whom? To the left, to Lula. And they were the bank, in fact it was theirs.

[00:19:33]There were many people involved, many criminals involved. Dr. Inocência is already with us. So I'll stop here, my dear Saragó, you are sovereign of communication in Ceará, so that everyone can leave.

[00:19:44]Imagine.

[00:19:46]I asked for Dr. Inocência's comment here.

[00:19:48]Yes, no, I would not like to separate myself from this issue of this film, I would like to talk about, let's say, the struggle of our generation, the generation of Frei Tito and the generation of Bx Jeão Feriz.

[00:20:06]Because, why did these people go to fight, create a guerrilla movement, try to organize a guerrilla movement, fight at factory gates, in schools, throughout this entire country? They tried to raise The Brazilian people. Precisely because we lived under a dictatorship. But why did they live under a military dictatorship? Well, Commander Biapino said, no, it was an imposed dictatorship, right, by the American forces here in Brazil, their agents and everything else. And the real problem is this: after the Second World War, the whole world revolted. I mean, the world, the so-called Third World, which lived in misery at that time, Brazil was rural, almost everyone in the interior was illiterate, the vast majority, perhaps 60, 70% of the population was. So, people lived in misery, there were no social programs, nothing, not even the man was given to Leo. So, people began to see that there was another possible world. Europe showed this, right? The First World and the Second World, which was the Soviet Union, its allies, the republics that were around the Soviet Union showed that there was a different world to be built. So Many struggles began throughout the world: the Vietnam War, in Southeast Asia, the independence struggles in Africa, anti-colonial movements, in the Middle East, and here in Latin America, all the workers were mobilizing.

[00:21:36]Here in Brazil, there were labor unions, and so on.

[00:21:38]There was a whole mobilization... And Brazil was, let's say, with Egypt, with India, which had become independent from England, and other countries. They were a bloc of non-aligned countries, and imperialism demanded, right? The imperialist economic force demanded that the American government impose dictatorships that would subjugate these countries that were trying to become independent. That's why the military coup in Indonesia in 1962 and later in Brazil. And we, in our generation, we entered university around '65, '66, and we started fighting against, from specific struggles within the university, we started fighting for more general struggles of the Brazilian people themselves. And we students, who were, let's say, generally middle class, right? The vast majority, with greater mobilization capacity, were the first in the country.

[00:22:38]The first mass movements were the students. That's why the students were persecuted. And with the imposition of Institutional Act Number Five, what is an Institutional Act? An Institutional Act is a kind of constitutional amendment that is not passed by Congress, written by the military, signed by the military, and put into practice the next day. So, with Institutional Act Number Five, Brazil effectively entered the "years of lead" and forced everyone into political clandestinity. All the students who had some relevance, you know, in their states, in their universities, began to be sought and arrested. So, most of them went to prison, including myself, right? We were expelled from the universities. Bx Jean Faria was expelled from the university. There had been the UNI congress in '68, in August, in September, at the end of September, in October of '68. After that congress, there was a preventive arrest against 70 students from the country, 10 were from Ceará. Look, Sara and Biapina and listeners. Uh, the UNI congress, the 30th congress, was in Biaúa, São Paulo, at the end of September, beginning of October of '68. There were about 800 people, so many students, student leaders from all over Brazil. We were 42 here from Ceará. Of those 42, uh, from that Congress, this generated a military criminal process against 70 students from the country. 10 were from Ceará. 10 were from Ceará. That is, we had 5% attendance at the Congress, but we had 14% of those prosecuted. See how this reflects the level of organization that we achieved here in the state of Ceará. We only had 42 people at the Congress, but we had 10 among the 70 who were prosecuted under the security law and subsequently preventive detention. And when Act Number Five came, we were all forced to go underground, right? Because preventive detention had already been issued. So this generation, this is Frei Títo's generation, this is Bexo's generation. Bexo was vice-president of the central student union. And at that moment in the popular struggle, different ways of overthrowing the dictatorship were already being discussed, right, because the dictatorship clearly showed from '64 onwards that it was n't going to relinquish its power and wasn't going to fall, it wasn't going to leave the scene. So we had to join clandestine parties, study. guerrillas, clandestine movements attempting to organize a large movement to overthrow the government. That's why Frei Tito was arrested and tortured and ended up committing suicide as a result of the torture, right?

[00:25:24]He was tortured a lot and was exchanged for the Swiss ambassador in 1972 and went to Chile, then to France, to Italy and back to France, and ended up in France under pressure, right, with these problems, right? He was tortured by the team of the torturer Fleuri, which was the most violent in the country, in São Paulo, right? He, Freitido, who had begun his student activism here in Ceará as a high school student at the Liceu, later joined the Dominicans in São Paulo and helped in the creation and organization of the 29th Congress in Vinhedo, São Paulo, and the 30th in Ibiúa, São Paulo. That's why he was arrested, not only him, but other Dominicans as well, Dominican friars, accused of participating in and having contact with the Eli, the National Liberation Alliance of Maringuela, and were even tortured.

[00:26:24]And then he ended up committing suicide because of the difficulty of dealing with this issue of torture.

[00:26:32]Even after I got out of prison, I spent months having nightmares about torture, being tortured in prison, and waking up from nightmares. Imagine Freito, who was tortured much more. The same thing happened with Bex and João Farias, who was a member of the PCD B, who was developing a guerrilla movement in the Araguaia region, where today is the city of Marabá, in Pará, and Chambioá in Pará and in the north of what is now Tocantins, formerly Goiás, in the city of São Félix do Araguaia, uncovering a guerrilla movement, he was arrested, he was the first prisoner of the guerrilla group, and then he was simply ambushed, right, he was machine-gunned, he fell there, right? Oh, injured, right? He was taken to the military camp and tortured to death there. After he was thoroughly tortured, his body was hung upside down from a tree, kicked, spat on, beaten, and finally killed with bayonets by the military personnel present at the time. And his body was buried there in the cemetery of Chambioá, a city in the Pará region. So, these young people of that generation fought the struggle that later generated the democratic struggle that led Brazil back to the new democratic system. So, this rescue that will take place next Thursday in Fortaleza deserves to be, let's say, supported, deserves to be honored, it needs to be endorsed because it involves two heroes from Ceará.

[00:28:21]There were others as well, both within the Araguaia guerrilla movement itself and in other guerrilla movements, because there were different visions of how to conduct the struggle for democratic revolution, right? There was the vision of the PCB (Brazilian Communist Party), of the PCDB (Brazilian Democratic Movement Party), of the Popular Action itself, there were the visions of the Fourth International of the Trotskyists, there were various visions of how to carry out the socialist revolution. That was one of them. So this rescue is more than important, and the Ministry of Human Rights deserves praise for managing to at least, if not recover all the missing persons, then at least obtain a certificate so that the families have a document proving the disappearance of their children, because officially there is nothing. They were simply arrested, they were eliminated, right? There was even a cleanup operation in that region, where they searched for the bodies of some people whose whereabouts they knew were in the woods, in the jungle. They were buried, removed from there, and the bodies and bones were burned and thrown into the Araguaia River and the Tocantins River, so that there would be no possibility of any knowledge about these matters.

[00:29:42]So, the Ministry of Human Rights is rescuing this history, at least through a document, a piece of paper, so that their families can exercise their rights, if that is the right they have, in relation to this atrocity, these atrocities that were committed throughout the country, including here in our Ceará.

[00:30:03]Very good. Hey Bapina, I'm going to give you the floor so you can interact with Dr. Inocêncio, okay? Make yourself at home. Did you hear me?

[00:30:11]Yes. Let it be yes. Oh, I think that Dr. Inocêncio, who was even part of that whole struggle and suffered torture, as he said, he has a lot of background to talk about that dark period in Brazilian history and he discussed several fundamental aspects so that people understand. That is, that is absolute truth.

[00:30:45]And as a result of that struggle, today we have many public policies in our country. The struggle was not in vain, doctor of Dr. Inos.

[00:30:58]No, no, it wasn't clear.

[00:30:59]No, I can't even imagine you, sir. We are friends and I have a great deal of respect for your history. He's looking at that youthful face; you can be sure he's 82 years old.

[00:31:19]So, when you were imprisoned and being tortured, what was your world like?

[00:31:28]Will I be alive tomorrow, or will I already be dead? Will all these wounds be a little more healed tomorrow, and will I not be tortured to see if they stay that way, if they don't get even more inflamed? In other words, it was a world there that isolated individuals.

[00:31:49]Suffering.

[00:31:51]We are talking, but our words describing an event never represent the brutal dimension of what torture is.

[00:32:02]Rosa da Fonseca, a teacher who has passed away, I was very good friends with Rosa and all that, she was young, she was very young, you know Sara? She was very young, part of the student movement, and was arrested. They burned the rose's nipples with cigarettes. A young woman is imprisoned while her blouse is ripped off by the worst kind of thug in the world, who burns her breasts.

[00:32:39]I saw the fox, my friend, the poet, he's already dead too, he was arrested 50 times.

[00:32:48]Arrested 50 times.

[00:32:52]Friar Tito and Lucinha are Friar Tito's sisters, right? It's not Dr. Inocêno, Lucinha is his sister, isn't she? She's my niece.

[00:33:01]Niece. It's Freito. It was a... His sister is Nildes. Nildes is his sister.

[00:33:08]Ah, okay. Yes, yes. I was just confused, but Lucinha is Freddito's niece. He was a priest.

[00:33:16]What do religious people believe they practice and visualize every day? Humanity is a child of God. God is pure justice, according to their beliefs.

[00:33:31]Then he was left in a place being beaten, kicked, and sleeping on the cold floor, with his feet tied, his hands behind his back, in the freezing cold, the unbearable cold.

[00:33:52]I think, Dr. No sense. That's not true, no, no, let's not say it's true, because nobody said so, I'm just inhaling.

[00:34:03]But I think he thought the following, I think he lost faith, okay? I think he lost his faith. He said, "This monster that is man cannot be a creation of a pure deity."

[00:34:18]So, from that point on, I think he starts to internalize it, he starts to lose faith. He begins to despair of the meaning of life and commits suicide to pay for everything on his mind. So, folks, that's the story. When I say Saragó and listeners that it was not in vain, I, today, I am teaching Professor Inocêncio, in high school, the last years of high school.

[00:34:49]I taught at two full-time schools and now I teach at another one that isn't full-time.

[00:34:56]A classroom with snacks, with lunch, with afternoon snacks, with a sports court, with air conditioning, with teachers being paid. That 's democracy.

[00:35:12]These students are being prepared for life; they are receiving important life concepts and values. When we see these things that embrace all people to heal illnesses, when we see, for example, the work being done in Brazil to recover the memory of those who died fighting for us, when you and I, for example, witnessed the governments and mayors of all Brazilian states and municipalities being chosen by the criminal military torturers. And the people could not play such a noble role, which is to choose their representatives themselves as citizens.

[00:36:04]When we see women's rights being protected, when we see land reform, when we see social justice, it is the result of what the people's fighters have done, Dr. CS. So, it's about bringing to the youth a serious discussion, without lies, telling only the truth about what the harsh, dark, and negative energy shadow of a dictatorship is.

[00:36:37]We know that what was done was of utmost importance.

[00:36:43]Sara, Dr. Innocence, make yourself at home. What I want to say is this: in fact, our struggle, the struggle of our generation, which, as I said, was the first to mobilize after the military dictatorship, after '64, because in '64 the workers were deeply affected in their unions, unions were dismantled, union leaders were arrested, and the Ministry of Labor intervened in the unions. There was intervention in politics, right?

[00:37:13]Politicians were persecuted, senators, representatives, even in the Supreme Federal Court, judges were targeted; in short, there was a general breakdown of democratic normality and institutional order.

[00:37:26]So, as students, we were able to mobilize more easily initially, of course, through student demands—better libraries, more teachers, I don't know— but then you start to see in this struggle that it's not possible, no, you're not going to solve your problems if you don't change the central government, which is the one that has the money for certain programs. And then we started fighting against the dictatorship. And then we also realized that the problem wasn't just a dictatorship, it was capitalism itself that doesn't solve the population's problems.

[00:37:57]On the contrary, Brazil lived in a region and was an agrarian country. Not only Brazil, but the entire Third World was basically agrarian, right? And the populations were left completely to their own devices. There were no social programs. And then we started fighting for a different kind of government, a socialist regime. Of course, as I've already mentioned, various trends had their own way of making their own revolution. So, Biapino, Sara, and friends, in the middle of this journey, while still students, we realized that going to college wasn't so important anymore. The important thing was to make a revolution.

[00:38:34]I was a 5-year-old quartermaster, right? I was already in my fourth year, president of the Cléber Vilaco student union at the law school, an important faculty, an important center, I could leave the university there with all the conditions to be elected councilman in Fortaleza, councilman of my city of Aracati or even state deputy and everything else, to have a political career and yet, we do n't, that doesn't matter to me anymore. What matters to me is whether or not we make an armed move towards another type of government, a socialist government, because that guy and we were right, yes. Now, when Act Number Five happened, we were certain that we were going to be arrested and eliminated. There is absolutely no doubt about that. That's the big problem: to continue or not to continue, to move forward or not.

[00:39:21]So the revolutionary has to make a revolution. We knew we were going to be imprisoned and maybe even murdered, like Becão Farias, Freit, and so many others were, right? Over 400 Brazilians have been murdered. Many of them are still without a definite destination; who knows where they went? Well, then it was a struggle for a different social stage. socialism. We did n't succeed, we didn't succeed, but at least we managed to overthrow the dictatorship and redemocratize the country within this thing called capitalism. We feel that difficulty today, right? We know very well what capitalism leads to.

[00:40:00]Capitalism, even when managed by a group, say, on the left with a social vision, can be managed through the production of social programs. This is the case, for example, in Brazil, which, since Lula's first election and later Dilma's, implemented social policies that improved the situation of the people.

[00:40:23]In the old days, when there was a drought, for example, here in Ceará, in the Northeast, people would die of hunger, my friend.

[00:40:30]He was starving to death. He was starving to death. Why?

[00:40:33]Because there wasn't a single social program from the federal government, nor from the state governments, nor from the municipalities. So, the populations would head towards the cities and occupy the municipal warehouses, where the school lunches were kept, some snacks, the public markets, the mayors would come out there at the last minute to hand out some flour, beans or dried meat, I don't know what. That's what happened.

[00:40:59]So, today is different. There's a drought, nobody leaves their corner. Why?

[00:41:03]Because the citizen has the BPC (Brazilian social security benefit), and also has a job at the city hall. Often, even with organized public competitions, there's the development of cities, there are social programs, Bolsa Família and other programs, right? Students now have access to schooling; in the past, there were no schools for students. In my hometown of Aracati, an old city, there were only three schools that had a gymnasium and what was called a scientific course. All three were private individuals: one from the Marist Brothers, another from the Sisters of Charity, and another from the Salesian Sisters. There were no public schools, only private schools. It was just so the citizen could create the skills to, let's say, become literate enough to sign the papers and vote, learn to sign and vote, because there was no possibility of him attending a private high school, much less going to Fortaleza, a larger city, to attend university, which was also scarce. So that kind of thing has changed completely. That 's not enough time now, is it? It is always subject to backlash, as was the case after the election of Jair Bolsonaro, right? With the demise of these new technologies, the very powerful media, with these social networks circulating all the time, everyone is now a popular shaper, so, with a lot of money, they ended up convincing the population that a criminal, like Jair Bolsonaro, a torturer, lover of torturers, financier of torturers, elected by torturers, was the ideal man for the presidency of the Republic. And this plague continues in Brazil, right? Well, well, and we're always subject to it anyway, because at this point imperialism, uh, fascism and Nazism have returned not only in Brazil, but throughout the world, right? From Margaret Thatcher in the 1970s, and Ron in the United States and Margaret in England, the mainstays of capital, two neoliberals, implemented neoliberalism. It means minimal state. A minimal state means unemployment, it means fewer social programs. Then came the collapse of the Soviet Union, which was a bloc of resistance in some ways. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, capitalism became absolute, it became totally hegemonic. And then he went on to implement his own ultraliberalism, which is the economic form of Nazism and Fascism. So, we are currently subject to a very significant historical regression towards barbarism, but what I'm saying doesn't mean we're defeated.

[00:43:52]We are in a whole, every war has its pros and cons, and its less important moments. Right now, we are even seeing Lula's candidacy recovering. Rebuilding from what? Starting with the discrediting of these crooks who are criminals, hidden, right, under this media, these lying narratives that the people end up believing, because the people are very gullible and have no way to defend themselves against this, because they only receive this wrong information, right, fake news and other criminal information, so we have a lot of ground to cover, we are going to win the war in Iran, Iran holding off on that war. When the United States demoralizes the world's greatest empire, what does that show? This shows that another world is now possible, that we are moving towards a multipolar world, no longer a world where there is total hegemony of American international capital.

[00:44:52]Very good, Dr. Inocêncio. I want to express my sincere gratitude for your presence here, and also for the suggestion to update the article announcing the event taking place on Thursday starting at 5 pm at Alessica here in Fortaleza. Okay, we're going to update the article, including adding photos of a very beautiful souvenir that the Women of Ceará Collective with Dilma is preparing, okay? So we make a point of doing that. Part of the popular attitude team will be present at Alessa. I managed to get some time off, look, over at 247, just to participate in this event.

[00:45:30]It's going to be a very significant event, a very beautiful event, and we hope that this becomes a standard, you know, this reparation for justice and for memory. And Biapino, thank you so much for your presence and for your comments, which are always very valuable. I want to thank our audience here and see you on Thursday, Dr. Inocêncio. I don't know if Ibiapino will go, but if you do, I actually owe you a book, you know? Ibapino, my presence is sacred there, Sara.

[00:45:58]Oh, that's great. Well, Thursday, you see?

[00:46:03]I'll bring your book on Thursday.

[00:46:04]Thank you very much, Dr. Innocence. Thank you, Biapino. Bye, everyone.

[00:46:08]Goodbye. Big hug to everyone. A hug.