Why a “Good Life” Might Be Built on Self-Deception

Added: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]would you say to somebody who, you know, again just more taking on a kind of imaginal perspective. Or someone goes, well, you know, John, I go to I go to church on Sundays, right? Um my family is doing well. I love my kids. Uh my wife and I have a great relationship. Uh do I I don't I don't I don't need to know Zen Neoplatonism, do I? Right? No. No. No.

[00:00:24]No. No, you don't.

[00:00:26]Um and um what I might say to you is a couple of things.

[00:00:31]>> Mhm. Um uh which is that meaning system that you have, do you understand it? Do you know how it operates? Because if not, you've been lucky.

[00:00:42]And do you want to continue to have that meaning both for you and all the people you just mentioned dependent on a luck uh on a on a state of ignorance? Do you want that or do you have a responsibility? Mhm. And responsibility requires knowing. And and and and meaning has to be shareable and mutually correctable uh correctable. So, you need to explicate it. You You don't need to become a philosopher, but you need to be philosophical. You need to like, okay, this is great. Why is it great? Like, what is the meaning system, the meaning processes at work within us, between us, beneath us, beyond us that is making this all happen? And I don't want to live in ignorance depending on luck because lucky man, Emerson Lincoln Palmer, if you live by luck, you'll be killed by luck, right? Um uh like that that is uh the the the the the thing. You you don't want to make yourself a slave to fate.

[00:01:42]You want to recover your agency, your selfhood, and your personhood as much as possible. And in doing that, you will also confront the second question, which is yeah, but how much of this is bound up with self-deception?

[00:01:56]How much of this How much How much work have you done on making sure that the meaning you're claiming isn't actually being projected by self-deception?

[00:02:09]For example, it can be it can be very much possible that your kids and your wife aren't enjoying the meaning you are having and I'm using that word deliberately with them.

[00:02:24]Have you No, well, they seem happy. Seem?

[00:02:28]Are you Are you Are you satisfied? The doctor seems like he knows what he's doing. Is that good enough for you?

[00:02:37]Mhm.

[00:02:38]Be responsible.

[00:02:40]Be reasonable.

[00:02:41]You have a responsibility to meaning because other people are bound up with it. And you should need to be reasonable. It is always being threatened. This is what all the sages and saints and shamans say. It is always being threatened by self-deception.

[00:02:59]So, you don't have to become a Zen Neoplatonist.

[00:03:04]But the unexamined life is not worth living. It may be wonderful right now, but it is definitely fraught with the threat of fate, and fatal comes from fate, and foolishness.

[00:03:23]Mhm. I like I like this character, so I'm going to play him a little bit more.

[00:03:27]Um but John, if I if I look at all of these things that you're talking about, then does that mean that uh whatever I'm experiencing in the in the the happiness of my of my church or the the intimacy of my relationship or what I think is now happening in my kids, but now because of your question, I don't know if it's actually happening.

[00:03:53]Like, doesn't that all just go away? And I'm I'm to be honest, I'm scared. I don't know if I can understand how difficult it is to go through all this. I'm not studied in it. I don't necessarily understand it.

[00:04:09]And maybe I'm maybe I'm being self-deceptive, but it's scary to uh take up that responsibility. And frankly, much easier to enjoy what I have until my time is up.

[00:04:25]Yeah. And so, first of all, you you got to really hope in a magical sense, like the person who hopes, the person who's in an abusive relationship and hopes the partner will get better.

[00:04:37]You have to hope that fate and foolishness continue to cooperate with your enjoyment. Um and um magical hope is a very dangerous thing.

[00:04:48]Um would you want to know if your wife is unhappy in a way that might lead her into having an affair that might actually end up destroying the relationship? Well, talking to her might upset the cart.

[00:05:02]Yeah, it might. It might. And And nobody Anybody who offers you an algorithm for how to do this is conning you. Um it it might.

[00:05:12]It might, but here's the thing.

[00:05:16]Where is the balance of probabilities?

[00:05:18]Where do you have the best chance?

[00:05:22]What is the one thing that's always good? Wisdom.

[00:05:26]That's where you have the best chance of always in a good way moving the needle towards a good life. Mhm. And sometimes we have to lose in order to gain that.

[00:05:41]Um I I don't want to pretend. I don't want to give that person who's asking me like a really honest answer from fear. I don't want to pretend that there might not be loss. What I can say is what I've realized, what I've seen realized in the lives of others, both living people, and the beloved dead, um is that everybody who has made that move and had and can compare the two worlds said they are glad that they made the move.

[00:06:18]You're on just this side.

[00:06:20]You don't know.

[00:06:22]You have to You have It's trust. People who have gone and had can then compare both sides, right? Mhm.

[00:06:30]Siddhartha grew up in a palace surrounded by beautiful women and delicious food.

[00:06:36]He gave it up.

[00:06:39]And he left his wife and kid and and there's there's a moral challenge there, and I don't deny it.

[00:06:45]But when you asked him, he was in that world, and then he went through tremendous loss to realize what he realized. Would he go back? Does he regret leaving the palace?

[00:06:58]No.

[00:06:59]No. And so, for me, that's non-magical.

[00:07:06]That's reasonable hope because these people have given me good reason and evidence to deem them trustworthy.

[00:07:16]And I would rather trust the wise sage, the holy saint, the transformative shaman, than I would trust fate and foolishness.

[00:07:42]Some part of me wants to explore this the atheism pole of that argument a little bit.

[00:07:51]Of course.

[00:07:52]I And I think Zen Neoplatonism smash the shared presuppositions of theism and atheism and disclose non-theism that is the best way of relating to the sacred as non-dual in nature. Yes.

[00:08:12]And that doesn't mean impersonal Mhm. as I've already argued.

[00:08:16]The another dualism that's overcome is the dualism between personal and impersonal, which is just another version of the the you know, the value-fact dichotomy.

[00:08:27]Um and so, um it's interesting. I'm I'm reading a reading a really good book. I can't remember the author, I apologize. It's called uh Buddhism and God.

[00:08:39]And and he's criticizing both Buddhism and uh largely Christian theism um in terms of the shared Uh so, he has this really interesting interpretation of the middle way, which he does not limit to Buddhism. He actually um um He He wrote a book on uh the Buddha and the middle way and Christianity and the middle way.

[00:09:01]Um Oh, what's his name? It's got to be the E.

[00:09:03]Um Anyways, um A- Anyways, um the and he's doing exactly that. He's saying he's criticizing both theist and the atheist. And so, this this is This is where Pyrrho comes in. Mhm.

[00:09:19]Pyrrho seems to have taken the middle way and the the concern for um abstract abstractionistic overintellectualism and brought it back and proposed his method of isostheneia, um which is Mhm.

[00:09:41]>> I find something that I deeply believe, and I provide an argument for it, and then I in all honesty provide a counterargument to it that is just as plausible, so equi-plausible.

[00:09:56]And then I hold that tension. For me, it's a opponent processing. But Pyrrho didn't quite say that. Right. Right. I hold that tension and I get epoché. I suspend judgment.

[00:10:08]And instead, what I do is I open myself up to non-propositional reciprocal opening. And then that is what actually alleviates uh my suffering. And that's how I get ataraxia. That's how I get the peace of mind.

[00:10:24]So, that's what I I I tend to do with theism and atheism. I tend to right? I but I I I I do I I I get an isothemia between them. And it it there are now times when it releases me from the shared presuppositions that the sacred is the supernatural, the sacred is an individualized substance.

[00:10:46]That's what we mean by person, right?

[00:10:48]And that's all we can and our proper relationship to one is one of of of of asserting asserting the various beliefs and proposition. Um all of that gets deconstructed. Um And both Zen and Neoplatonism converge on that because they they they they they both are pushing um this they share this claim.

[00:11:12]Right? You need to get past inference to get to insight.

[00:11:17]Yeah. So, Neoplatonism says go through it and launch yourself beyond it.

[00:11:22]Neoplatonism That's Neoplatonism. Zen says try to silence the inference in mindfulness so that the insight can occur. And both of them both of them function and they don't have to function, right, in an antagonistic fashion. They can be complementary in opponent processing. Yeah. And thereby get it even make yourself even more prone to insight. Yeah, because sometimes sometimes you have to do one or one over the other. You can't only have the affordance of one and you know, when I think about uh some of the the the atheistic kind of pull of that like it sounds like I'm just going to play this play this character, right? So, but it sounds like John, you're just talking about you know, basically being a good decent person, right? So, care about other people's feelings, uh be reasonable, right? Be aware of science and and fact the good work that other people have done.

[00:12:20]Um and don't get too attached to any of it. So, that just sounds like that sounds like what you've been talking about with Zen and Neoplatonism.

[00:12:27]Um but do you have to like attach it Why do you need to attach it to the to the tradition of Zen or or the Neoplatonism? Can that just be it on on its own like on its own terms? Does it have to be sitting in that particular context?

[00:12:47]Yeah. Um so, here's here is um the European Enlightenment speaking that what we will do is we will reduce everything to morality and mastery.

[00:13:01]And if I have a sort of a good mastery over my life and I'm a moral person, uh that's that's that's all you're all that's all we're really talking about, right? Um and of course, that's just a a a secularized version of Kantian pietism and other such things.

[00:13:17]Um it's a which it comes out of Protestant Christianity. Um the problem with that is the philosophical arguments and the scientific research that points that meaning in life is non-reducible to mastery and morality.

[00:13:33]Meaning in life is about being connected to what is real in a way that is significant to you that can comprehensively orient you and help you realize what is real and connect you to it with an intimacy of participation and perspectival presence.

[00:13:51]That takes a lot of work. That takes a lot of skill and virtue cultivation. And you can't just do that individually. It not only takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to raise a sage.

[00:14:02]Um and so, we need to do this, right, in deep dialogue that your cognition and meaning-making are largely not propositional, they're perspectival and participatory. You need imaginal practices as well. The imagination plays a central and crucial role. And your imagination is at the heart of your being reasonable. The space inside your head is an imaginal space where you do your meta-cognition. Your orienting to your future self is an imaginal relationship. And I have made these arguments at length. Um all of this machinery of meaning is not captured by the machinery of morality and mastery, which is the reduction uh that is claimed by modernity. If we can just get economic mastery of the planet and moral mastery of the society, then we will have the utopia. And that just doesn't work. It hasn't worked historically. And it doesn't work because of good really good philosophical and sci- scientific argumentation that meaning is not reducible to morality and mastery. And that once you pay attention to the machinery and by that I mean the processes of meaning and our participation and cultivation and mutual correction in meaning, you very much are into trying to get clear about the cologies of practices that will properly educate your religio and your reason. And that's what we've been talking about.

[00:15:34]But okay, but if if I look at it this way, it's like all right.

[00:15:40]So, let's say I I agree with you, it's not it's not it's not morality.

[00:15:44]Um maybe I won't don't reduce that, but just in terms of my own daily life, right? If I'm doing I I do I do IFS. I just don't call it prayer, for example, right? I do I do tai chi, right? But I I don't I don't consider it meditative walking, right? So, it does that mean that also like I can I can go to a church and still be an atheist if I want? Like what do you How How is this affecting my my beliefs, what I have been growing up with, what I've been talking a lot about because I might have a lot of atheist friends, right? I also have a lot of religious friends.

[00:16:24]And so far, it looks like nothing's going terribly wrong. We just keep our respectful distance and hanging out seems fine for the most part.

[00:16:36]But I I I think I think that's important. Like I want I still want to be able to say, you know, I don't need to believe in God to be a good person.

[00:16:47]Well, what do you need to believe in to be a good person?

[00:16:49]Goodness.

[00:16:52]That goodness is possible at all.

[00:16:54]Yeah, yeah, yeah. And And is that goodness a real goodness?

[00:16:58]Uh if it's measurable, yeah.

[00:17:02]Does it exist in a way that is beyond you? Or are you just saying uh I believe in myself?

[00:17:12]Uh no, I'm not saying I believe in myself. I'm saying, you know, like what is what is good is definitely good.

[00:17:18]Like don't kill children, that's a very good thing.

[00:17:21]Right. And so, and and and you and you've already admitted that there's aspects of that that are not captured by uh by morality or or economic mastery, yes?

[00:17:31]Yes.

[00:17:33]Yes.

[00:17:33]>> Okay. So, what So, there's an aspect of this goodness that is real and meaningful to you. And you are orienting towards that reality. And don't you think if you're orienting towards that reality, you should understand it on its own terms as best you can?

[00:17:51]But aren't you telling me that the terms of that uh you know, basically God? Like it's it's theology.

[00:17:58]Can it Does it >> have to be It doesn't Again, it it it I mean, I I don't want to be you mean the Abrahamic God, doesn't have to be that God. Um Do I Could it be the Tao? Could it be Brahman?

[00:18:13]Uh Could it be the one of Neoplatonism?

[00:18:15]Um Could it Could uh uh Could Could it be you know, nirvana? Uh Could it be shunyata? Uh Uh Could it just be life, John? Could it just be that um the life?

[00:18:30]Yeah, like so even as a as a friend, your life is important, right? Your your life and your living right? It's important. It's just not It's not nirvana or shunyata or any of those things or that. Again, this is such a weird character for me to play, but I'm trying to stay in it.

[00:18:47]>> No, no, no, that's that's right. But you know, I'm So, do do you do you So, it it it would it be a good life to be uh trapped in childhood?

[00:18:57]Uh no.

[00:18:59]Okay, you want to mature, which means you So, you have to transcend childhood egos Like you can't get the economic even the economic mastery and the morality you think is central if you remained childish egocentric like unskilled, lacking in virtue, yes?

[00:19:16]>> I wouldn't even be able to talk to you.

[00:19:17]I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to >> That's right. That's right. So, so you think the what the primary way to move towards goodness is through self-transcendence.

[00:19:28]Uh if that's what you want to call the process of maturity, I can get on board with that, yes. Well, we we we uh if [clears throat] if Why why not call it self-transcendence?

[00:19:38]But but but anyways, okay.

[00:19:40]So, and then what reason do you have for believing that that maturation process should stop?

[00:19:49]I don't I it can. I don't think it ever stops.

[00:19:53]Actually. Right.

[00:19:54]So, So, then do you think you grew up by just listening to yourself, or did becoming an adult, did you have to actually imitate other people you found trustworthy who were pointing you to ways of being and seeing that you didn't currently have? Mhm.

[00:20:14]By If you mean like physically imitating, not really, but like I have to read books, I have to I like watch audiobooks, I listen to podcasts.

[00:20:22]>> physically imitate them. Um you're physically speaking a language. Did you invent that language?

[00:20:28]No.

[00:20:29]No. No. So, you actually have to go out through you have to trust people who are wiser than you in order to afford the maturation, I'll use the words you like, so that you can get closer to the good that you is what you're ultimately oriented towards, yes?

[00:20:44]>> Mhm.

[00:20:45]Yeah. Welcome to Neo-Platonism.

[00:20:49]That's what Neo-Platonism says. As the child is to the adult, the adult is to the sage, the sage is to the sacred.

[00:20:55]That's Neo-Platonism.

[00:20:58]That's what it is.

[00:21:04]That's That That is a That is a lot of fun. That is a lot of fun to like go It's so hard cuz I like I know I I can I can kind of see that, but I'm also like doing this. You did a good job. You did a good job. [laughter] Yeah.

[00:21:19]Um I mean I'm trying I'm cuz I'm trying to to imagine also where folks might might step into. I I think that's right. And I want I want to be clear to people who are watching. I mean I was playing also with Ethan, and I knew he was doing a double role. Um you know, I So, if I was I I probably I would hope and aspire that I would be a little bit less aggressive with somebody who was truly in that. Uh but we had compressed time, and we were also in a state of serious play. So, that's why if you That's why my my my my comportment was the way it was. Yeah.

[00:21:55]And I'm also like, you know, actually taking the perspective quite seriously without trying to be uh derogatory or or denigrating. Yep, exactly.

[00:22:05]You did a good job. But it was a lot of fun. You did a good job of that. Yeah.

[00:22:09]All right. Well, on the back of that, you know, I think it's time that we can wrap this up. So, if you would just, you know, uh maybe give us some parting words around how has this conversation sort of um informed the way that you look at Zen Neo-Platonism and how you're going to be stepping into the course in the position of um well, in the position of someone teaching it, but maybe that changed for you, too. Like, how are you looking at Zen Neo-Platonism even slightly differently after this past hour and a half?

[00:22:39]Well, as as I said, and um I am coming to terms in all of the possible meanings of that phrase. I I More and more I like to have try and speak the way William Desmond does. I'm coming to terms uh with Zen Neo-Platonism. Um and more terms came, and I came to more terms. Um and um I have become comfortable, I hope this is epistemically virtuous, with a a particular heuristic. I still recognize it as a heuristic of where I am where it is doing this reciprocal opening and taking me beyond where I thought I could go as a way of tracking the truth. Um um and keeping track of how I track the truth. Um and so, I very much found that I mean, uh you know, this is another conversation. I've come I'm coming to realize this central claim of Christianity, there is no logos without agape, and there is no agape without logos. Um and what we just did was logos with agape and agape through logos. And um I think that's that's a very very very powerful. Um and so, um and I think if you get Socrates speaking on behalf of following the logos and the Buddha speak speaking on behalf of following agape, karuna, compassion, the compassion that that liberates people and helps them give birth to their true nature, which I think is very convergent with agape, then the Zen Neo-Platonism is a powerful way of uh integrating realizing the integration, the interpenetration, the interaffordance of logos and agape, and that's what happened here.

[00:24:37]Yeah, I think something that I'm sort of taking away from this conversation is the way in which Zen Neo-Platonism is merely pointing at that which is at the ground of all of our interactions, and it's worth it to also understand kind of how that works at every level. It's not In that sense, it's really not uh it's really not a religion in the in the proper sense of the word, you know. Yeah.

[00:25:05]Well, I mean, again, I think it's a way of being religious.

[00:25:10]Yeah. Um I don't think it's a religion.

[00:25:12]Um and um I'm well, part of what's happening very recently, and it's came in this talk, is I'm becoming very suspicious, doubtful of religion as a construct. Um so, I much It's a It's It's analogous to don't tell me what you believe, tell me what you practice, but I would now add, don't tell me what you believe, tell me what you practice, and tell me what way you follow, and who you follow.

[00:25:44]That's the religious part. And so, for me, that's those have become the central questions. I want to know who are you following, what way are you following, and what are you practicing to follow that way and follow that that person.

[00:26:00]Thank you, John. Uh if you would like to follow the rest of this conversation as it evolves as we continue playing, um there should be a link down in the show notes to learn more about the course between East and West.

[00:26:13]Uh you'll find it on the lectern.johnvervaeke.com, and we hope to see you in class. It's going to be amazing.

[00:26:19]Thank you, John. I look forward to it.

[00:26:21]Thank you, Ethan. You were fantastic.

[00:26:23]And I look forward to meeting uh as many of you as possible. Um I I get deep joy out of the lectern, deep deep joy. So, look forward to this.

[00:26:34]Take care, everyone.

[00:26:53]>> [music]