Pure Kino Spent A Year Studying The Wire—Why The Sopranos Is Still 1A | Wiretapped Truths

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[00:01:15]>> Welcome to Wiretap Truths. My name is Jesse Perez, joined by Mr. Wiretap Truths Leland, resident comedian Mr. Jack Simmons and today a special wire fan guest, Pure Kino from uh you know, and I just want to shout this guy out a little bit because uh you know, I while I go on on YouTube and search for wire stuff like uh you know, he also has like breakdowns in the the Sopranos, he does video essays. He has a very popular YouTube channel. He's a YouTuber and um you know he really dug deep and did his homework. What what did you do Kino? One year you studied this uh the wire. Was it one year you said you did? Is that >> Yeah. Um first off, let me just say thank you for having me here. Um excited to be a part of this. And uh yeah, so um I I did basically a year of research kind of preparing for a big uh retrospective that I did on The Wire.

[00:02:15]Um, I read I I rewatched the series a couple of times. Um, and I read a few books. Uh, The Corner, Homicide, A Year in the Killing Streets. Um, and then there's another book called uh, All the Pieces Matter, which is actually like a compilation of, uh, quotes from the actors. They did interviews and stuff like that. And so, that was that was a lot of great information there, too. So, um, yeah, basically just it took like a year to complete that project. It was a that was a big, uh, project I worked on.

[00:02:41]But, um, if there was any show that deserved it, it was The Wire. I mean, you guys know this. That's It's like one of the most incredible shows of all time.

[00:02:48]>> How did How did you know when to like >> How did you know after like a year like, "All right, I've done enough research."

[00:02:57]>> Um, you know, it's I I I just I planned it out a little bit. I knew there were certain books I wanted to read. Again, I I had familiar I didn't did a little research on David Simon and Ed Burns, the projects they'd worked on. Um, I planned on watching like All of Homicide, too. the NBC series. Um, I watched a couple of seasons and I I figured I kind of got the gist of it. I didn't I didn't need to It's got like seven or nine seasons. Yeah.

[00:03:24]>> So, we didn't we didn't go that far. Um, I wanted to also watch all of their other series they did. So, like Generation Kill, Show Me a Hero, um, >> The Plot Against America, >> the Plot Against America, that's a great one. And I I didn't do TMA or the deuce or anything like that because those were again kind of longer series and I figured I'd do on a separate video one day. But um you know I just thought it would be interesting to uh get all that information together and do like a big like where you cover the entire thing.

[00:03:55]Um and it was it was a fun project. So you would like this little fact because I I I I know that you number one >> the the retrospective anybody who hasn't seen it it's amazing like you just gota so what he does too is like he'll say and I watch the whole thing you know cuz but you know Kino lets you know from the be he does it like a book right and he opens up right and it's like >> and then he goes you know and he goes and if you want to watch the video there's stuff for you to watch but if you just want it playing in the background Brown, you could just listen to me. You made it for that, too. Like, it's >> it's like a podcast, right? Where it's like a lot of people want to listen to it as they're driving or doing their laundry or whatever. And um I think that's great. I think like you don't need to like if you want to watch it, great. Uh but if you want to just listen to it like I I listen to like your guys' podcast. I listen to a lot of podcasts while I'm just like >> doing chores and stuff. It's great to have that information there.

[00:04:51]>> Yeah. That I mean Yeah. And we we always put like now we started putting stuff in the recap like the the but I don't even watch that. I always listen to us on AirPod you know but yeah that like you said like you know it's but it's fun for for people that are there that to watch the video and stuff but yeah I just >> it was it was >> it was amazing. It was 10 out of 10 man.

[00:05:12]It really was. Um >> thank you. Appreciate that.

[00:05:15]>> What and you've done a bunch of Soprano stuff. So yeah so now here's the question.

[00:05:20]>> Sopranos of the what? You know it's coming. Sopranos. I knew that was coming. I knew that was coming. Everyone always asks me that. Um >> it's I don't want to give a copout answer. They really are like tied for me in my favorite loves. I give a little bit of an edge to the Sopranos just because that was my first like love that I fell in love with. Um I loved it before I even did this channel. I actually watched The Wire um because of the fans of my channel were like, "You got to watch The Wire. You got to watch The Wire." I was like, "Okay, I'll check it out." Um and I just thought, "Hey, we'll give it a chance and see it." I and I absolutely fell in love with it.

[00:05:54]It is if Sopranos is 1A, this is 1B.

[00:05:57]It's like right up there with me because there's just it's there's no other show out there like it. Um it's so different than The Sopranos, too. You know, The Sopranos is this incredible character drama, right? Like one of the best Tony Soprano is one of the best written characters of all time. The Wire was like, "Hey, the characters aren't the most important thing here. It's the themes. It's the subject. It's the city of Baltimore. that's the main character and no show had done something like that before. I think maybe the closest thing you could kind of point to is something like Twin Peaks which was also kind of about these like larger things than just the individual characters. But um man like it really is like the most impressive piece of television. Like no one could do something like this besides David Simon and Ed Burns. It just wouldn't work.

[00:06:45]>> No, for sure. I would actually probably agree uh entirely. I would put them for me as like tied. They're kind of like it's kind of like an apples and oranges situation too because like you said there's different they're different thematically and they're different structurally and almost like their pacing. I would almost almost like compare it like say it's like when people ask you like to compare the Godfather or Goodfellows and it's like it really just depends on what kind of mood you're in in terms of what you want to watch and it's like you're right because the Sopranos I mean even though it's an ensemble really it is about Tony and everything >> but The Wire you could start the show from anyone's perspective and it would kind of just land you at the same place >> you know like um every time I watch the show uh the wire re-watch the episode, I kind of watch it from a different character's perspective because it's written in that way.

[00:07:40]>> Well, the thing I always point out is imagine at the end of season 4, right?

[00:07:44]Tony and Carmela are separated. Imagine season five, Tony was barely in it. The way that McN barely in season 4, it would not work. The show just would not work like that. But The Wire, you could have the main character, you know, he's the top build actor on the show, basically leave for a season. Yes, he's he's there in season four, but he's not the focus at all. And it works because McNelte is not the main character.

[00:08:08]Baltimore is the main character.

[00:08:11]>> So, um, also too, right, real quick, I was going to tell you >> in the Deuce, right, you would like this since you did the Easter eggs and stuff.

[00:08:19]>> Yeah.

[00:08:20]>> An's Glover's character uh, shoots somebody and calls the cops and said, "I just shot him, man." A throwback to like Cuy.

[00:08:29]>> So, there's a little shout out in there, you know. I feel like all of uh like I mean I I've been watching TMA lately and I I Can I ask you guys one quick question?

[00:08:37]>> I haven't seen Have either of you guys seen TMA?

[00:08:40]>> No, I have not actually yet.

[00:08:43]>> Okay, that's that that is interesting because I I've always wondered like, hey, why are Wire fans not really watching Trim?

[00:08:52]Because it's a very similar show in a lot of ways. It's about New Orleans the same way The Wire is about Baltimore.

[00:08:58]Got a lot of the same people in it. Um, uh, Wendell Pierce is arguably like the McNolte character of that show. Um, but it's just, uh, I'm planning on doing a video about it pretty soon here. Um, >> I'll be honest, I watched like five or six episodes and I couldn't >> You got bored. You got bored, didn't you?

[00:09:17]>> Yeah. It's >> I don't want to offend I don't want to offend Mr. Simon or the Baltimore film crew, but I couldn't get >> No, I I understand that, man, because there is so much about that show that I'd like. Like it's got great like theme like again just like the wide rate themes about the city but they took out all the exciting crime drama aspect and then they made it all about the music which great music but there's only so many episodes you could watch about like concerts and like okay guys come on let's >> let's pick up that kind of interest me though like a show that kind of takes a backseat because in a way it's like >> there are like a ton of crime shows you know where it's like there aren't too many shows about just a city where it's like let's have it on a more just like daily basis and everything. I mean um >> you know it see it does seem that like you know murder and death kind of have to like forward but there are a lot of shows where like not a lot of violence happens that just you know mad men for instance and it's like >> sure >> yeah tma is more of like a character study. Um I've always wanted to get to it. I think I just kind of like >> I don't know I get why the deuce never took off cuz that's a porn show. was kind of grimy for a main audience, but >> I the funny part is I like the dudes. I got the dudes I you know I got into and >> I'm going check that out afterwards. The crazy thing about David Simon too is like it's always based on somebody like the James Franco character was like he talked about the after show. He's like oh the real and he said the character's name was uh this and then he was like and I was like does this guy just and I guess it fits because he's a journalist.

[00:10:55]So all right I'mma throw this out a little early but speaking of David Simon you said there was a badge of honor. We we had an interview with him.

[00:11:04]>> I saw that interview. It was a great interview.

[00:11:05]>> Similar to Thank you. Thank you. Did you like the Idris Ela story? I got a kick out of that one.

[00:11:10]>> Yeah. Yeah, I know. I I thought that was just a You guys have had just some amazing guests. Like I I'm very impressed when I see all the ads like, "Oh, man. That's awesome.

[00:11:17]Congratulations on that."

[00:11:19]>> Yeah. We could we couldn't do it without some help from the uh Baltimore film crew, you know. Uh and but um you know, shout out to Miss Donna, Adrian Gibson, De Young, everybody.

[00:11:30]>> Anyway, the David Simon thing. Yeah, David Sim. So, yeah, where was I going with that? Um, David So, David Simon said that what the hell was I going with it? Oh, [ __ ] I forgot my question. [laughter] >> Go ahead, Jack. I >> So, why what why do you like TM? Like, tell tell us more because I like um you know what what is it exactly about that show that always stood out to you? You know, Jack, it's like you said, um it's very interesting to have a show that is like, "Hey, we are not going to like people say The Wire doesn't really have a very action-packed like like fast-paced story. It's very slow." TMA is that like 10 times that. There is like almost no story. Like, I would be hardressed to tell you what happens in any individual episode. There are some things that happen here and there, but it's it's very slow and it tickles. And I mean like like Steve Zion as the main character is like >> he's he grow he grows on you a little bit. He is very annoying. He is very annoying. He grows on you a little bit.

[00:12:34]But it almost it intrigues me intellectually more than it entertains me. I agree with you too, Jesse. It's like in Jack in theory that's very cool that it's like so different. In practice when you're actually watching it, you're just like, "Okay, come on." like I I need something to happen here to just keep me watching and not going on my phone or something. Um, so it's it's a I'm going to do a video on it because it's an interesting follow-up to The Wire. It's like taking everything that was like unpopular about The Wire and that's only the thing that the show is going to be about. You know, The Wire always struggled with ratings. It was never a hit until after it was over. So I don't So David Simon, right, he said on our show that uh they that he took from Generation Kill and added to The Wire season 5 because they didn't want to give him that, >> didn't it? And now you you would know this too.

[00:13:26]>> Wasn't there like a a rumor that season 6 was supposed to be about the Latino neighborhood?

[00:13:32]>> Yes, that's what they were going to do if um but David Simon got a season six.

[00:13:36]>> But David Simon said he hardly even got a season five. So, how was that even possible? Maybe you might know how >> if they want if if if they would have given him another season, that's what they would have done it on. But it was HBO was like after season 3 when the Barkstdale story wrapped up, HBO was like, "Hey, let's pull the plug on this." And they fought to get a season 4, which was great. That was the best season of The Wire in my opinion. Um, but season 5 is shorter. They gave him less episodes. And you see that all the time with HBO, right? They gave Boardwalk Empire a shorter final season.

[00:14:07]They gave TMA five episodes for their final season, by the way, um instead of the usual 10. Um uh you know, House of the Dragon, they cut short the last two episodes and basically ruined the entire momentum of the of season 2 because it ends basically in the in the middle of a season. So that happens. Um The Wire was never a hit for HBO in terms of viewers. It got prestige because people were like, "Hey, this is really good television, but they were never like there was never a money maker for the HBO never made a bunch of money off the wire the way they did like Game of Thrones or something."

[00:14:42]>> Yeah. I want I wonder if there I wonder if they've seen any kind of revenue now when it became popular for like DVD sales.

[00:14:47]>> I think I think so. And a lot of shows are like that. They don't do well as they're coming out, but they become like a hit afterwards. I mean, HBO puts The Wire on their front page all the time. I see it on there. So, I think they appreciate having like a high quality show that people are interested in, but it just never it didn't get the views while it was running.

[00:15:06]>> I do remember my David Simon question real quick, Jack.

[00:15:08]>> Okay. No, no, go ahead. Sorry.

[00:15:10]>> You said >> so you had the badge of honor or you said he called you fucknuts on Twitter.

[00:15:15]What happened? So, what was this?

[00:15:17]>> How did you get on David's bad side?

[00:15:19]Which >> I I was just trolling him on Twitter.

[00:15:22]Um, I Okay, so in that video I I kind of talk a lot of trash about David Simon because he he bugs me a little bit. I I respect him. Like he he's an incredible writer, creator, and I respect everything. I was just trolling for the most part.

[00:15:34]>> Um, he does pissy on Twitter. I Yeah.

[00:15:37]>> So pissy on Twitter. Well, I he left it now, but um I would just like troll him and like whenever he'd post something, you know, on his soap box, I would kind of make fun of it a little bit. Um and he called me fucknuts and blocked me, which is what he does. And I I mo I mostly did it just because I wanted it to be part of the video. I was like when it happened I was so excited because I'm like I get to put this in a video that you know the the creator of the wire hates me. I mean he does it. He just I was a random loser on Twitter that he blocked one day. But um I was just it was just a little joke. It was just a little joke. I was I don't have any problem with David Simon. No, that's what happens too on the internet too is that you know people will just say [ __ ] like without think like I've called people like [snorts] not [ __ ] nuts because I feel like that's a Baltimore thing but you just like you just type it out there and then it go and then you just forget about it >> but it's like that hap like if you're a you know a really famous guy like David Simon that just like >> oh yeah that's right I called that person [ __ ] not [laughter] >> the one thing about David Simon that I wanted to kind of say was just that Um, I I think in my video a lot of people thought I was trying to like diminish him from the wire and say like the wire wasn't really his success or not. I didn't mean it like that, but I what I did try to really push forward though was the idea that Ed Burns deserves 50% of the credit for the show. Like no one talks about Ed Burns. Um, but without him, The Wire would be [ __ ] And you can look at some of the shows that David Simon did without Ed Burns that are not as good. Um, like he he really contributed to that show.

[00:17:14]>> No, for sure. I mean, like this is his cases like Barksdale was a real case, you know, like you know, and and so >> I No, I you know, and I think it was because of your your your you know, your four-hour thing that I always make sure to shout out Ed Burns also when we give a shout out David Simon. Well, Ed Burns, now you said, and I think you're right.

[00:17:35]I did act I did ask around and I think you were right. I don't know how you get the information you do. You're like, um, you're like Kurt, you know Ziggy's Duck on Twitter. He gets all this information. Um, do you know um did you how did you know that Ed Burns took a backseat in season five like or is that true?

[00:17:56]>> I around and I think it I think it is kind of true.

[00:17:59]>> Yeah. No, they did. He was working. He was basically working on Generation Kill. Generation Kill was made kind of concurrently with season 5. They even have an ad for um Generation Kill in the newspaper when Bubbles is reading the story about himself. You can see an ad next to it that like check out an HBO Generation Kill is coming because it was coming out right at the same time.

[00:18:20]That's also why HBO only gave him 10 episodes because they they diverted some of the money to go generation Kill. And >> Generation Kill is fantastic. It is one of the best miniseries of all time. Um I actually got to do an interview with um Evan Wright, the guy who wrote Generation Killed a book. He's a journalist, too. Um and that was that was a really great moment. Um he he's a great he he was a great guy. He unfortunately uh took his life um about a month or so after we did the podcast.

[00:18:50]Uh, which was very sad. But, um, I was really fortunate I got a chance to meet Evan because he had some amazing stories to talk about the the behind the scenes of that show, his time in Iraq. He he is the uh the the character who the the reporter in that show. Um, that's based on him. So, uh, yeah, great great guy.

[00:19:11]And that's it was an amazing series.

[00:19:13]>> James Ransone was in that, right?

[00:19:15]>> Yeah, Ziggy. Um, I mean, he's in a lot of David Simon. He's in TMA a little bit. Um he's in some other shows they've done, but um yeah, they had a I think he might be the only wire person on that show. U but he's one of the main characters. He's he's fantastic.

[00:19:32]>> Well, Generation Killer. Yeah, it was it was a great show. I saw I saw that one and it's um was like the first show about Iraq, you know, that that came like >> really kind of the first uh show or movie actually kind of about that at that time. It was really when it was fresh in everyone's minds. But I think it came out 2008. So it was around the time that public opinion was starting to go sour of the war because 5 years in nothing's been accomplished. Bush's popularity is in the [ __ ] at this point. That's kind of like the vibe you get from uh watching the show The Wire go on is you kind of see America's faith uh in the president kind of uh implo implode actually when you first start the when the first uh season comes out it's almost has like a more optimistic quality and then by season five you see like the economy start to crater. It's really kind of >> I always feel like it kind of showed the country inline. Yeah, they even talk about that in like the first episode of the war on terror, you know, and and all that stuff. And you you see it evolve.

[00:20:41]It's similar in the Sopranos, too. You saw like pre 911 and post 911. 911 happens like right smack in the middle of the Sopranos. And it's >> it's a very different America's was very different after that. It was much darker, less trusting, and I think the media really reflected that.

[00:20:58]>> Yeah. Kind of like Tony's arc in a way, you know, >> Absolutely. For sure.

[00:21:02]>> For sure.

[00:21:03]you know, um, >> it's funny because, you know, you have so many Soprano videos and and and the dedic All right. So, >> I would guess you're monetized on YouTube, right?

[00:21:14]>> Yeah.

[00:21:15]>> So, you know, the Soprano videos is probably your bread and butter.

[00:21:19]>> Oh, for sure. And and you could and you could have ran off with the wire if you wanted to, but it it seemed almost like a >> a choice of like a a moral stance or what what have you like uh you did it more for the art, right? Like cuz cuz you could have made video after video and and monetized off of that, right?

[00:21:39]Did >> did this play Did you have thoughts about this because I mean, you know, you are a YouTuber, you know? No, I I that that's a great question. Not that not something a lot of people think about.

[00:21:50]Um I definitely made a deliberate decision to do it as one big video rather than a bunch of small ones. And people asked me that too. They asked me, "Hey, why don't you break down every episode of The Wire the way you did the Sopranos?" And the reason I didn't do that is because just like I said before, it's within an individual episode, there's not a lot going on. It's the entire arc of the show, the entire arc of the season. do you really start to draw the meaning from it? And I said it before in that video, The Wire is like a book. It's like analyzing a book one page at a time. You can't do it that way. You have to have the whole story in front of you to kind of really get a sense of what the show is trying to say.

[00:22:30]So, um it was a deliberate choice to do it like that. And I think it it it works for a show like The Wire. Other shows you can do it episode by episode or season by season or whatever. Um, but the wire is like, no, you got to have the whole thing before you can really grasp what the show is trying to tell you.

[00:22:49]>> I mean, I think you could also do it episode by episode. I think that's pretty cool, you know?

[00:22:53]>> I mean, you guys are you [laughter] guys are doing that, too. That's different than a podcast. [laughter] >> That's different than a podcast.

[00:23:02]>> I'm just busting balls.

[00:23:04]>> I get you.

[00:23:05]>> Um, no. I I think I I totally understand what you mean. I mean, it's almost like uh when you want to talk about the whole thing, it's uh it makes sense because you're talking about like the story of how the show became from one thing to the other essentially, you know, >> and like it's lasting impact now. Um >> and uh you know, you're saying like shows now get like a revival audience like that happened with Suits, you know, um a couple years ago, everyone started watching Suits again. Even like young people were like telling me that they're like people in their early 20s are like I'm on suits and I'm like that was on when I was like in high school. That's crazy.

[00:23:44]>> Well, I feel like we've gone like um nostalgic for for media lately where it's like people aren't really in digging new stuff. Everyone's kind of digging the old stuff where it's like back TV was good back then, you know?

[00:23:57]Like new shows are popular, don't get me wrong, and people talk about them, but it's it's usually like criticism people are throwing at the new shows. like um like I said the the the Sopranos has a huge fan base of young people who are just getting into the show, you know, Breaking Bad, Better Call, all these shows. So, I think we're kind of in like a nostalgic period where we're looking to the and that's been enabled by streaming. You know, used to be back in the day when it's showing off the air, you couldn't watch it again unless you went out and bought the VHS tapes or something, but it was hard. Now it's everything's available on the streaming platforms. You can just watch it right now. It's great. Kino, does uh Tony die at the end and who doesn't because we know he does. I >> uh I have such a um a copout answer for that. Um yes, I think he dies. I think it's very clear um that he dies and there's there's so many videos out there that explain I haven't done a video like that just because everyone's talked about it to death. Um who >> also David confirmed it I think.

[00:24:57]>> I maybe um >> No, he didn't. No, he he he said something he said something that they took it as a conf Okay.

[00:25:07]>> He said that there was him dying >> and and everybody reacted >> like happy to it.

[00:25:16]>> So he took he took that part out.

[00:25:18]>> I tend to kind of not like >> I tend to take the the creators words out of it a lot of the time. I'm like, let the art stand for itself about like what whatever D James Chase could say whatever he wants. You could say aliens at the end abducted Tony. There wouldn't be evidence in the show that that's what happened, but you, you know, he could say whatever. So, I I tend to be like, let's just look at what's happens in the show, and it's very clear he dies.

[00:25:41]There's so many references to it. Um, who does it? My answer is we'll never know because the ending is like framed from Tony's perspective. That's why it keeps cutting to the door when it opens because you're seeing from Tony's eyes.

[00:25:54]He'll never know who shot him, right?

[00:25:56]He'll never It just goes black and that's the end. And so we'll never know.

[00:26:00]Could it be Paulie? Yeah. Could it be New York? Yeah. Could it be uh Eugene's brother or something in a members only jacket? Yeah. Could it have been those two black guys? Maybe. Who Who knows? It could be anyone. He'll never know. We'll never know. Did Tony ever do a irredeem uh an act that you couldn't redeem that that you found unforgivable?

[00:26:21]Um, >> Jack, I will ask you the same question.

[00:26:24]>> Okay.

[00:26:27]>> I mean, all of it in in a certain sense.

[00:26:29]He wasn't really like repentant in any way. Um, >> I I I tend to because I'm such like a creator and I all I think about is like how can I use how can I talk about this in a video or something, I tend to not get super like emotionally invested into what they're happening. I'm just like, "Oh, that's interesting. I'll talk about that in the video. Um, so I mean I I love watching Tony. He's fascinating.

[00:26:54]Would I want to be his best friend?

[00:26:56]Absolutely not. He He seems like a very shitty person overall. But um I uh I mean he I don't I he was going to hell if if that's kind of what you're asking.

[00:27:06]There was there was no redemption for Tony. He was not he was not changing in any way, >> right? No, I I would I would say that there's a few I mean for sure. Yeah.

[00:27:16]He's definitely like an evil person. In terms of individual moments, I mean, there are certain things that always stood out to me as as less like almost violent acts and more just pointless cruelty was the worst part of it. There was an episode of season five when Janice >> Oh, yeah.

[00:27:36]>> That's the one to all the time. Yeah.

[00:27:39]>> Janice. So, Janice is like she's um her life she's starting to turn her life around. She's sober now. She's with Bobby. She's They're raising their kids together. They have like a nice house and and Tony comes over there and she's he sees that he's like, "Wow, she's actually doing okay." But he's just such a miserable piece of [ __ ] that he's turned into his mother at this point.

[00:28:02]And he constantly makes references to uh her child that she abandoned that which eventually sets her off and she starts crying and chasing him and then he just leaves with a smile on his face and he's like, probably the worst moment in the show for him >> because it's it's pointless too. It's like he wanted he wanted Janice to not be so angry because she she was getting him in trouble by getting in fights and stuff.

[00:28:27]>> Um it's what he want. Same thing happened with his Gumar um Urena. It's like I this girl's crazy. I don't want her in my life. She's calling my wife.

[00:28:35]She starts dating some other guy. He's so jealous he can't take it. He beats up the guy and then she calls his wife again. That's why they get separated in season five. Um, it's like he can't help but self- sabotage because he's such a miser miserable person.

[00:28:51]>> Oh, I got >> He wants everyone to be as like shitty as he is.

[00:28:57]>> Tony and McNelte like the same girl who's getting laid.

[00:29:02]>> Probably McN was actually I don't know.

[00:29:05]>> Depends. Depends on the kind of woman.

[00:29:06]Yeah. [laughter] >> Some of those women those gold diggers he was with were like You make you make how much in the Baltimore Police Department? Um, >> no. [laughter] >> Yeah, if they're in New Jersey, probably like that's Tony's territory. Um, >> but yeah, for but uh also with what you were saying before, [snorts] Jesse, like I think the thing about him is that he Tony almost exists like a narcissist where he constantly tricks the audience into think he is a good guy just like real narcissists do in real life. But then like at any moment Yeah. He chooses to be selfish. Like with Christopher at the end, it's it's he does that because it's a relief to himself and he just he he's like, "This person's whole existence is a nuisance, so I'm going to end it, you know, and that's kind of Yeah. So, I mean, you know, he's definitely uh irredeemable." Uh >> to me, that's my favorite character, Chrissy, you know.

[00:30:02]>> Oh, he's Chriser's great. I mean, again, he's a piece of [ __ ] too. Don't get me wrong. Horrible, horrible person. Um, but >> there's not really no good people in that show.

[00:30:11]>> But he's he's more like sympathetic though I feel like to than Tony Christopher because he's not um you I I always he was always my favorite character also cuz he's almost the most relatable where he's a guy who's like just trying to figure out his own place in the world. He's uh it's like it's it's a the mafia from like a young person's experience and like Tony is the boomer. There's definitely like an abusive like parent angle to Tony and Christopher's relationship, right? Where it's like Tony's this mentor figure.

[00:30:41]He's like an older brother/f father figure, yet he's taking advantage of Christopher for his own benefit. And um again, not to say that a lot of the stuff Christopher does is horrible, too, and he made his choices to to be a part of that. Um but you're right. I think it's it's a lot it's similar to like Jesse from Breaking Bad. Jesse does a lot of bad stuff on that show, yet he is so much more sympathetic to someone like Walt because Walt's in this kind of position of power over him where you feel like, >> man, if this kid could just get away from this guy, he might have a chance.

[00:31:16]Now, did he make his choices to be a part of that? Yeah, absolutely. But we have sympathy for those younger people because we think that they there's a chance of change whereas someone like Walt or Tony, they ain't changing, right? That they're they're they are who they are.

[00:31:30]>> Yeah. But you know what Walt I think there's a changing part in the show too and it all comes over a coin toss right with like Crazy Eight, right? It's like >> if if if Jesse would have if it would have landed on Jesse to kill Crazy A would cuz I feel after that that that kill it's kind of like he's like >> I maybe but I feel like it was just the monster was always inside of him, right?

[00:31:53]that was just the the cancer and the the drug dealing and the killing was just the avenue through which it came out. We we see that with Walt that like >> there was a part of him that was always like egotistical and wanted you know to be the big man and um for a while he pushed it down. It's why he's so weak in the in in the first you know couple episodes but once it came out the monster was always there. Um, and I I think that's the fascinating thing about the show is just that like yeah, there are people who probably because the situations would never do anything like this unless they happen to have the opportunity to do so. Um, and you're right, if if Walt never went on that ride along, probably would have never made math. Probably would have just been a meek school teacher his whole life.

[00:32:39]But that guy Heisenberg was always inside of him and it just needed the right moment to come out and show itself. Well, also I was saying the the coin toss to kill crazy eight too because remember yeah. So Kino, you got a a son, right? You said on the video.

[00:32:55]>> I have a I have a daughter.

[00:32:56]>> A daughter. Okay. Yeah.

[00:32:58]>> Uh well, how old is she now?

[00:32:59]>> She's about to She's about to be one.

[00:33:01]Thank >> Okay. So, what what's going to be the first show when she's old enough that you're going to say, "Come here next to dad. We're gonna [laughter] review this together." Is it Breaking Bad? Is it The Wire? Is it >> I don't know, man. I I I w So I I I watched all the shows with her like when I was when we're taking care of her, you know, just you just have her you're you're patting her and I just want something to watch. So I watched like The Wire, the Sopranos and stuff. And at first you're like, okay, she's just a baby. She's not going to notice any of this. But then you start to kind of see that like, oh, she's actually paying attention to what's on the screen. Um hysterical.

[00:33:35]>> And she like babies like they they imitate you. They imitate what what you're doing and copying you. and you're like, maybe I shouldn't show her some of this stuff on here. Maybe till she's older. But, um, I don't know. Probably Sopranos. Like, I mean, when she's old enough, you know, like a teen or something, maybe I'll show her the Sopranos. But, um, you know, I I think I kids are going to be into whatever they're into, right? You know, the young kids are into like >> you know, whatever Bluey or whatever the whatever shows they our kids are popular with now. Like I I was never into the shows the stuff that my parents were into. I found my own stuff. So she'll find her own stuff, too.

[00:34:14]>> Well, especially like little kids, they're they're attracted to the colors mostly and stuff, right? So that's why they like, you know, Elmo and stuff.

[00:34:20]>> Oh, you know what's funny, though? I'm a huge UFC fan. I watch it every every Saturday that it's on. And my daughter's fight was a rip, huh?

[00:34:28]>> Oh my god, it was so awful. Um, the Patty Pimble fight was good, but I was just saying that she watches the fights and she's like paying attention to like the the fights as they're going on and I'm like, "Oh, maybe maybe she'll be a UFC fighter one day."

[00:34:42]>> Who really loves the Sopranos? Yeah.

[00:34:45]>> Yeah.

[00:34:45]>> Yeah.

[00:34:46]>> Um, yeah. No, it's true. Um I mean there there are certain shows which I feel like I you know younger people now are like less uh media like they're not as exposed to as much older media as >> we were. I think that's like should definitely change for uh because >> uh you know when we were younger essentially you would just turn on whatever and the TV and watch an old show from whatever the [ __ ] And now like um you know the the only way for people to really understand about that is when things become sort of like uh what do you call it like viral or um >> on Tik Tok or something. Yeah.

[00:35:28]But no, I definitely uh you know there there are certain shows though which kind of like they're not quite adult shows but like Star Trek or whatever.

[00:35:35]Like I feel like if kids want to like get into TV or stuff like I I was watching like 24 in middle school which isn't like so adult that it's like too much.

[00:35:46]>> There's a lot of great shows that are not like violent murder shows but they're just very well written. I think like one of the examples I was pointing out is like House MD that it's like a it's like a procedural show. It's like a case of the week, like a law and order kind of thing, but it's actually like a like a very interesting character drama, too. Like he's he's a pretty fascinating character. Um, so like like again like Star Trek, like you said, those are great written shows. Um, >> there's it doesn't have to be like these murder dramas that they're not the only great shows out there.

[00:36:16]>> Why are they so Why are they so attractive to us? Especially the guys, right? Like you you like you're an intelligent guy. What do you have you uh >> have you ever broken this down? Like what what's the attraction of like Scarface to us?

[00:36:28]>> It's a it's a power fantasy. It's like it it appeals that's like Breaking Bad in itself, right? It's like a man, we all see ourselves kind of as Walt in the first season. We see ourselves as like weak and like we can't do anything. And we all wish we could be those guys who are like I can take whatever I want. I can do whatever I want. Um, now I think the best shows they engage with that, but then they um show you the other side, which is, hey, here's what happens when you do that. And I think even even stuff like like Scarface, right, or the Godfather, they do that, too. They show you that like, yeah, the rise is fun, but then you got the fall, you know, then you got your you're dying in front of your your family or whatever. So, um, I I think >> that's what >> the murder shows are kind of like a male fantasy for a lot of us. It's I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[00:37:16]I'm not one of these people who like demonizes >> being excited by by fun stuff.

[00:37:23]>> I love Yeah. I I was just actually asking as a a genuine question because you know watch your videos and you know you're you seem like a very intelligent person with like that break it down.

[00:37:35]>> I'm not but I'm not but thank you. I'm glad I come off that way.

[00:37:39]>> I'm an idiot. But um like I or like even just like I said before >> I love mafia shows. Yeah.

[00:37:45]>> But you I love mafia movies but you'll never catch me at the bottom bing.

[00:37:49]Right.

[00:37:49]>> Oh for sure. Yeah. It's like you it doesn't just because you like that stuff doesn't mean you're like a scumbag, right? Like I mean I I watch the UFC.

[00:37:56]I'm a huge fan of that. I'm not a fighter myself. I've done a little like you know boxing and stuff and I'm not I I'm not a professional. I just like it's fun. It's fun to watch you know guys kick each other's asses. So there's no nothing wrong with having like male ccentric hobbies. I know a lot of a lot of people >> criticize that kind of stuff, but it's just like it's just fun. Just having fun.

[00:38:17]>> Yeah. No, I agree that people uh know like people should definitely uh just enjoy what they enjoy. I mean I I watch stuff like that too. Um and you're right. It's like a form of escapism to like fan like wish I could be like this and you know that that's like >> and I you said something interesting before about like showing how people fall from that. I always felt like that was my response to uh people's criticisms of Scorsese, how they would say like, you know, Good Fellas glorifies the mob. And I'm like, not really. I mean, it showed or the Wolf of Wall Street or Casino. They all show that like this life of crime is great for a while until it's not and then you wind up either dead or in jail or best case scenario and witness protection.

[00:39:01]>> For sure. And I I think people will draw whatever they want from it. They'll be like, "Yeah, but whatever. I I just want the beginning part." And for for some people that's also I've heard that from criminals where they're like I know this is going to end badly. They talk about that in the wire too. It's like it ends in one it ends in the grave or in jail but it's better to be a king for a little while and then dead versus being you know a servant your whole life. And for some people they make that choice and that's their choice.

[00:39:29]>> Yeah.

[00:39:30]>> Speaking of the wiring >> sorry Jack go ahead. You were going to say something.

[00:39:36]>> No, I was saying it makes sense because it's like I mean not not saying they necessarily agree with him, but like to their point it's like Jordan Belffort.

[00:39:43]Yeah. Like he went to jail, but he wrote The Wolf of Wall Street and it's like a guy who never breaks through like nobody's reading books about that guy.

[00:39:51]So, it's like there there is something to be said about that idea of like >> yeah, there is something for like even though he wound up like uh you know Henry Hill wound up living like a boring life at the end and all his friends and family hate him, but they made one of the most iconic movies ever. So, it's like a trade-off that >> The Wolf of Wall Street is interesting because they show even at the end when he get when he falls, it's not that bad because he's a white collar criminal.

[00:40:17]So, he goes to a country club prison where he's playing tennis and then the FBI agent at the end is riding the bus home, you know, he's poor. Um, so they they made a point that like for for some of these guys, especially like the white collar stuff, even if you fall, it's not that bad. You know, it's like you're going to be treated pretty well. It's it's it's worse when you're like a street criminal, then you're you're going to be kind of screwed. But, >> you know, guys like Avon or Cuddy, they're like whatever, man. The game is the game, right? I like I'll do what I do and then I'll I'll pay the consequences, but this is this is my life, you know.

[00:40:51]>> Yeah. It's better than cutting lawns, which Cuy kind of realizes, >> right?

[00:40:55]>> Changes. Cuddy changes. Yeah. But >> No, for sure. Later on, >> loosely based on Calvin Ford, by the way, Javvante Davis's trainer.

[00:41:04]>> Um, no. So, it was through your video that I realized and I've mentioned it on the show many times. Marlo's ending is a tribute to the gambler. I how how did you pick this up? How did you get I didn't I mean it's not even on the We looked up the internet for movie and wire crossovers and it doesn't show it.

[00:41:24]But it's the ending to a tea and you know you you show it. Uh were you just a fan of the movie? How how did you figure that? And do you think it takes away from the ending the fact that he used the g like because it's almost like exactly what happened in the gambler, right? You know the cut in the face, right? Did he smile? Uh, I don't remember saying that myself. Um, >> wasn't it from your your >> No, it might have been from someone. I don't I don't think I I don't think I pointed that detail out, but I did talk about Marlo's ending, which is um you know, everyone talks about this, right?

[00:41:56]It's like he he got the success. He had he he got away with it. He got all this money, but what he really wants is to be on the street. And um you know, Omar dies, he loses, but the streets are still talking about him, right? That's it. That's that's the all that Marlo wanted. And there's an irony that he he ends up in the worst spot, which is he's not he he's not in the street, which is where he desperately wants to be.

[00:42:20]>> Now, I I criticize that ending a little bit because I'm just like, well, he's got $10 million, right? If he wants to in a few years, he could just go back to the street. Like let's not move to another city and like >> we're moving to another city, but let's not pretend that like the Baltimore Police Department is so advanced that they're they're going to remember him in a few years. Like they're going to be gutted. They're not going to catch him again. And it's he he can go he can go be a criminal again if he really wants to be. It's not it's just a vacation for a while. So I don't think his ending is as dramatic as people make it out to be.

[00:42:52]Who's your f? So, it I I also like, you know, I'm in the minority on the podcast on this. I don't think season five is as strong as the other seasons. Um >> Oh, I think it's one of the worst, if not the worst season of the show.

[00:43:05]>> I think we all agree that it's the worst of the seasons. I think you just dislike it more than me and Leland, if that makes sense. But I think like I think it's pretty unanimous amongst every wire fan that the similar to the Sopranos where it's like you could tell by the end it's like everyone's kind of just like all right we're kind of done.

[00:43:23]>> Here here's my problem with season five and it's it's very specific to David Simon. The newsroom story is one of the worst written of the you know each season has its own little storyline they're doing and I think it's because D two things. One, Ed Burns was not as involved because he was working on Generation Kill.

[00:43:42]>> And two, David Simon was way too invested into this story because it was it's basically revenge fanfiction for his time at the Baltimore Sun. He's writing that that his coworker who was making up the stories. He talked about that, I think, on your podcast. He was writing his the guy his >> Somebody over, but I I've heard that before.

[00:44:03]>> No, it is a specific guy. Scott Templeton is a specific guy. I don't remember his name. I could look it up, but um he wanted to basically >> write revenge fanfiction and that's why the characters just feel so flat. Like all the other characters from the seasons, they feel fleshed out. They feel like even if they're bad guys, you understand why they're doing what they do. Scott Templeton is the worst character they ever wrote. He is there's nothing interesting or redeemable about him at all. Like even Marlo had aspects where you're like, "Okay, I'm I'm interested in this guy." Scott Templeton is boring. He sucks. And it's because David Simon was just like, I hate this guy. I'm gonna write him as awful as I can.

[00:44:46]>> Yeah. No, you know, I I hear what you're saying and it and it does make sense.

[00:44:50]It's kind of like the way a lot of certain comedy shows are written now.

[00:44:55]Like I I watched Ricky Jerus's last show and a lot of the scenes just felt like these are Twitter arguments, but now I'm going to film them in real life and I get to play the winner of the fight make you look stupid and you know and it's like or the scene like there's that hacky scene when you always see like a middle-aged white guy at like a at a a snotty barista and you know and it's just like this is for you. So I I get that. I think I actually always found Gus more annoying than Scott because he is >> annoying, too.

[00:45:25]>> He's very like holier than >> I love Gus. I love Gus.

[00:45:30]>> I mean, he's a good guy, but like yeah, the he's written to be David's uh standin. He's supposed to be David Simon essentially being the cool journalist that everyone loves and respects and isn't he so awesome? And it's it's very clear this is David Simon's alter ego here. Um, so >> no, that that is um I you know I think if they went with 13 episodes they would have found a more I mean I I don't dislike the newspaper aspect but I think they could have done something more interesting than >> Let me say one thing though, you know.

[00:46:03]>> Yeah, I agree with you 100% that the 10 episodes hurt it. It hurt the pacing.

[00:46:08]Let me also say there is something really I find interesting about season 5 which is this aspect of it where they talk about like this um the nature of storytelling right McNei invents a fake serial killer because he can't get any attention doing things the right way and it's sort of like this meta commentary about the wire itself right the wire was not a popular show it did not get any views trying to tell a story that was realistic they even they even refer referenced Dexter, another show about a serial killer. And it's like it was almost like a joke about like look how much more popular Dexter is than our show when it's the most ridiculous fake show out there. Like nothing in real life is ever like this, but our show that's telling the truth is not getting any views. The Magnoli storyline is like a metaphor for like, okay, if you won't pay attention to us like doing real work, then we're going to invake [ __ ] so you'll be entertained and you'll watch the show. So, I >> I find that aspect very like funny and I in like a meta sense, but um it's just like I said, the characters just don't work for me.

[00:47:15]>> Well, you know, I would say my and I, you know, I I would love to see more of Alma, you know, uh more of them.

[00:47:23]>> More of all of them would be great.

[00:47:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. All of them. Um more fleshed out. Um, it was almost there's always a little bit of coincidence that happens to help out the case. But ju just at the same time that McNelte invents this serial killer, he runs into this pathological line newspaper journalist and they just happen to cross paths and it's kind of like, >> okay, I have to I have to believe this.

[00:47:51]All right, I have to believe that. And with the wire, I don't I never had to do that. It was like almost watching You're saying it's like too convenient, right?

[00:48:00]>> Like I mean it was like, you know, but I mean, you know, we did get some badass scenes out of it. Magnosy's trapped in the same lie. Um, >> there's a lot that's good about season 5. It's not bad television. It's just >> I think the series finale is one of the best finales of >> Oh, I agree 100%. I think it's a f I I don't know how I don't know what you call the finale, by the way. It is it just called 30? It has that weird dash >> because I think that's that's a newspaper reference.

[00:48:29]>> It's a newspaper thing, but I I I I said in the I didn't know how you how you pronounce that title, but 30. I I'll just call it 30. I think it's one of the best television finales of all that final sequence at the end where it goes through all the characters and I just think it's incredible.

[00:48:45]>> Yeah. No, I I think that it's like it kind of makes me think of like The Godfather 3 where it's like it's it's not bad, but what it's just when you compare it to the other ones, it's it's like not nearly in the same league. Um there is something kind of nice about that has like this feeling of like wrapping up in a way >> where it it's like um I don't know. It doesn't feel I'd actually say it has a better like the you know I I don't know if it's better or worse, but it has a better ending than the better last season than the Sopranos because I mean >> The Sopranos the last few episodes they're just so depressing and everyone's miserable and everyone's dead. It doesn't have as like as much replay value. I mean, it's still great, but it's like it's I like I don't choose to rewatch it as much.

[00:49:35]>> I know. I get what you're saying. It's not as it's not as fun. It's just so miserable that it's kind of exhausting almost to watch those final episodes again. Um, >> so I understand what you're saying.

[00:49:46]>> It's like all the characters are also like dead and I I think a part of that was like David Chase kind of like had resentment. He's a interesting guy. Uh because he has he has this weird >> David, right? both.

[00:50:00]>> That's right.

[00:50:00]>> And also Dave David Milch, too. The Deadwood creator and also um Hill Street Blues or No, NYPD Blue.

[00:50:08]>> Oh, so I got to name my son.

[00:50:10]>> There's a lot of David.

[00:50:11]>> I have another son. I got to name him David.

[00:50:13]>> If you want if you want your son to be a television creator, then name him David.

[00:50:17]>> And Davids are the way to go. But David Chase seems to have this like antagonistic view towards the Sopranos.

[00:50:24]when people like ask him about it or like walk up to him on the street, he has this like air like get the [ __ ] away from me.

[00:50:30]>> Oh, for sure. Yeah, he's he's kind of an [ __ ] like that. And >> yeah, for sure.

[00:50:35]>> But all all the Davids are like that.

[00:50:37]David Simon's an [ __ ] on Twitter.

[00:50:39]David Chase is an [ __ ] to Sopranos fans. David Milch has his own little he's kind of crazy. I mean, he had Alzheimer's, but um before that he was kind of like a weird guy, but they're all weird.

[00:50:51]>> And let's let it be known here, too. I'm going to flex our muscle a little bit here. David Simon doesn't talk about the wire anymore. You know, this is the most recent and he doesn't plan on talking about it >> really.

[00:51:05]>> He did this as a special favor to a friend of the podcast.

[00:51:08]>> Yeah. Well, good good for you. That's fantastic. I I And I I understand his perspective, too, right? Because as a creator, you're like, "List look, it's out there. Just watch it." Like, I don't want to keep answering your your guys' questions or listening to your criticisms. I understand that. Um, and he's got other stuff he he'd probably rather be, you know, talk his new projects or whatever he's working on, he'd probably rather talk about that than his 20-year-old TV show. But, you know, as a creator, if you make something that people love, you got to expect that they're going to talk to you, like ask you about, right? Like, be be grateful that you made something that people love. You know, >> no matter what you do, you know, it was like I was watching this interview with Rain Wilson and he was talking about that. He was like >> they asked him like, "Hey, what if this is like the thing you're most known for is Dwight?" and he's like, "If that's the case, then it's like I got to be a part of TV history." And it's like, >> you accept that like you can't be all things all the time. And it's like even when you It's the same thing with musicians, right? Even when they're excited about they go to a concert and they play their new songs and they're like, you know, I still want to hear the old stuff though. It's like [laughter] you can't, you know, as fans like it's a a thing. It's an interesting thing as an artist because it's like you want to do new stuff, but it's like there's going to be certain things that people will just always stick out to you, you know?

[00:52:23]>> I think you should be grateful for that.

[00:52:24]Be grateful that people cared enough about your stuff. I know it's annoying that they don't like the news. I always get annoyed. I mean, I don't get annoyed, but I I sometimes get frustrated that I want to do some videos on some smaller shows and the people are just like, I want more Sopranos videos and I'm like, I wish you would check out this new stuff because I think it's pretty good, too. But, you know, at the end of the day, be grateful for whatever you have. You know, >> what was your favorite video you did?

[00:52:47]What What was your favorite one that you look back on and you're like, I I like this one.

[00:52:52]>> Um, the probably the wire retrospective just because it was like, >> yeah, >> very like it took a lot of time and I'm very happy with how it turned out. Um, there there's been some Sopranos videos I've done that topics I don't think anyone's talked about before that I'm I'm proud I I covered something like that. Like I talked one time about uh Sopranos's lost media. There's like videos and stuff that HBO did to promote the show that are not available anymore because Flash um is not available. So those videos just don't exist unless they're on someone's hard drive out there. And and one they found one of them. There was a video they uh they um James Gandalfi Ed Falco made for LeBron James when they were trying to get LeBron James to play for the New York Knicks. They recorded a video as Tony Soprano and Carmela to send to him to be like, "Hey, it's Tony Soprano. Come play for the New York Knicks." You know, whatever. Um, >> which is crazy because they would be Nets fans that for they're in New Jersey.

[00:53:52]>> They just [laughter] they the the the Knicks just um paid them to basically do it so they could try to get LeBron there. But it wasn't ever made public because it was just for LeBron. They didn't it wasn't like a real thing. But someone found it on someone's hard drive and it's available now on YouTube so you can see it. So >> occasionally you'll find those lost media things. It's really cool.

[00:54:14]>> Yeah. So much stuff like that >> I think. Yeah. You know, when you you're right when but when you do have to talk about groundbreaking television, you cannot not mention The Sopranos and you know, you can't ignore the mainstream edit for HBO, you know, because like it really c, you know, that's the show.

[00:54:38]>> Yeah.

[00:54:38]>> That's the show that brought HBO to the top. Like, >> well, let's also we we could also give credit to Oz, which came out before, like a year or two before Sopranos, but Oz, you know, didn't have it's not as great as something like Sopranos of the Wire. It's still a good show. Um, but yeah, I think Sopranos was the thing that like put them on the map. And then The Wire right afterwards, I think that came out right as they were filming season three of the Sopranos. That's when Wire came out. Um, and that also was like, man, this is this is where you come for quality television, right?

[00:55:09]There's no other network that's going to do something like this.

[00:55:12]>> Yeah. Sopranos and like Six Feet Under are >> Yeah, those were like the uh No, definitely those were like the streaming show. Those are like the first streaming shows to have mass appeal where HBO before that was a thing. It had popular shows, but it was more very niche. It was like like if you're kind of like cool and hip, you you were watching the Larry Sanders show and stuff, >> you know? is it had stuff like that, but like the sopranos of the first time where I'm I don't like you would probably know this more than I do, but I'm I'm sure that like after the first two seasons came out, like the amount of HBO subscriptions probably skyrocketed like across the country.

[00:55:56]>> Sopranos made HBO money. It made them a lot of money over the years. They've sold DVDs. They've sold merchandise.

[00:56:04]It's not like the wire. Like you'd be hardressed to find wire merchandise the that HBO released. Like you're not going to find a Magnoli Funko Pop out. I mean, maybe there exists. I don't know. But um last >> Yeah, maybe. Um Omar Maybe they'll have an Omar Funko Pop. I don't know. But they have Sopranos. They have Sopranos merchandise out there.

[00:56:25]>> Omar's the most uh celebrated character I think, you know, from >> Barack Barack Obama's favorite the president. And that's I I didn't talk about that in a video. I wish I did, but like David Simon and Ed Burns made a show so great. The president of the United States interviewed him >> about the show.

[00:56:46]>> That is so [ __ ] crazy.

[00:56:48]>> That is crazy.

[00:56:49]>> Yeah.

[00:56:50]>> No, David knowing David Simon, he probably took it as nothing. He was like, "Okay, how you doing, Mr. President?"

[00:56:56]>> I I bet he hated Obama's politics, you know? He hated that kind of central uh liberalism that >> well like he >> I didn't get I didn't get into his Twitter that much. Somebody somebody >> I don't know if he I don't know if he did or not but I just saying like the Martin Ali character or not Martin the Careti character is based on Martin Ali who was uh ran at the same time as Obama. So I'm just saying I I don't know he probably had some sort of political spiel he went on with Obama.

[00:57:23]>> Yeah. Well, he always hated both uh David's I always felt um well the uh David Simon specifically had like a distrust of like the neolibs that were like in power at that time which was very evident for sure. Um, and David Chase very much had this like distrust of uh the neocons and feds which is very evident in the Sopranos and is also kind of going to be the theme of his new show that he's making about the FBI.

[00:57:54]>> Yeah.

[00:57:55]>> Um controlling what what do you think about that?

[00:57:58]>> Uh we'll see if it actually comes about because there's been a number of David Chase projects that have fallen through.

[00:58:04]Um HBO I it seems like HBO or whoever whatever network he's doing it with has very little faith in him outside of like Sopranos related material. Um because >> he the only thing he's managed to do besides the Sopranos and the Many Saints in Newark was um Not Fade Away his movie.

[00:58:24]>> What a horrible movie, right? Many Saints in New >> Many Okay. Yes. Many Many Saint I thought you talking about Not Fade Away.

[00:58:30]Not Fade Away is a good is a good film.

[00:58:32]It stars James Scandalini in it, too.

[00:58:34]>> Um, but yeah, Many Saints is a mess for a lot of reasons. David Chase didn't really want to do a Sopranos movie, but they they wouldn't they wouldn't give him the money to do his Newark Riot movie unless it was Sopranos related, so he kind of shoved a Sopranos story into his >> he he he's always wanted to do a movie about the New York Riots.

[00:58:56]>> That's very Cloverfieldish, you know what I mean? that they had to like we have to find like a way to put in this story. So, I'm going to take this like existing IP and um wow that's >> which is funny because David made literally one of the most profitable and successful shows of all time. It wasn't like a failure.

[00:59:13]>> You would think they give him some money to but his other also not fade away I don't think made any money either. So it's, you know, maybe that's why, >> well, you know, he's like a he's kind of, now that I think about it, he's very similar to like George Lucas where Lucas had all of these ideas after Star Wars and all of these projects that he wanted to work on and like none of them came to fruition. And like David Chase has kind of been the same way. And it's like eventually, you know, I think that's just like some people, for some people it's like they have a few good ideas or maybe even just like one or two and then it's like hard to >> Well, that's why I think he's a little you you said before he's kind of like resents the Sopranos fans. And I kind of think that's why I think that he feels trapped in it a little bit. Like he's like, I really want to make movies about music and, you know, race riots and stuff like that, but they all these guys want is [ __ ] more mobster [ __ ] Well, and I kind of feel like him and James didn't end on the best of terms, right?

[01:00:10]Like >> they they didn't, but they they patched it up because they did the movie afterwards and he said it was fine. They were during the show. James Gandalfini really resented being Tony. Um >> I heard I heard he would hold up I mean rest in peace, but they said he would hold up production for like four or five hours.

[01:00:28]>> Well, he I mean there's a lot of things.

[01:00:30]I mean, people don't like to talk about this, but he he was, you know, a cocaine user. Um, and he drank a lot and, um, great guy by all accounts, like one of the most nice human beings out there, but he he had some problems. And he hated being the character Tony. He just it wasn't his he hated the darkness. And you talked about this, Jack, that the darkness of the last season, I'm sure, was miserable for him to play >> because he's Tonyy's just an absolute You're a demable piece of [ __ ] that season.

[01:00:58]>> Um, form itself at that point.

[01:01:01]>> Yeah. And you know, he was, you know, that wasn't fun for him. And he didn't like being violent and hurting people.

[01:01:07]He's a very gentle person. So, um, he didn't like being Tony, but he they he and David patched up because he was in the movie, not Fade Away.

[01:01:15]>> Yeah.

[01:01:17]>> Go ahead, Jess.

[01:01:17]>> That's sort of like Jesse Eisenberg in a way. certain people they just become known for something but they're like they can't they're just like look this character I play was like an awful person and I want I don't want to be associated with him anymore you know that's this case with Eisenberg that's why he's not playing Mark Zuckerberg and um the social reckoning um it's just like you know when you're when your most famous role is being like a sociopath it's like it's it's an honor but it's also like a burden because you're like I'm not really like that in real life You know, >> I mean, a lot of actors struggle with being typ cast as like you're a villain or you're the good guy or you're the you're just the the love interest or whatever. And, you know, I get it, but >> at the end of the day, if you're a working actor, you should be happy because most of them, you know, fail out. So, >> most of them aren't getting offered roles on these movie set, but most of them aren't getting a million dollars a picture. You know, that's that's rare.

[01:02:12]>> So, uh, Kino, I don't want to take up too much more of your time. I I just want to ask you a couple more questions here.

[01:02:17]>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, like I'm such a fan of your YouTube page, you know, keep doing what you're doing. You know, that's what uh you know, I followed you on Twitter and um what who is your favorite Wire character and who do you think is the best actor in The Wire?

[01:02:33]Those will be my final two questions to you before.

[01:02:36]>> Okay. Um favorite character is Bunny Kovven. Um I just think he is one of the like like the best characters very much.

[01:02:44]you can tell based on Ed Burns um in a lot of ways. Um I I just think his whole storyline's fantastic. I love he's a very >> he's one of the few characters who actually tries to do good and and accepts the consequences for failing. Um >> he's just fantastic. Um best actor.

[01:03:05]>> I mean there's so many good ones. You know you could say Michael K. Williams like he that performance was so incredible it stood out and he became this breakout star you know it made his whole career you know Domesus McNei I think he's a classically trained actor you know he's he's a he's in a lot of stuff besides this so he's fantastic um Wendell Pierce is amazing in everything he does um you know probably uh Lester I'm I'm I'm blaming you on his the actor's name right off the top of my head, but uh Lester is also >> I think.

[01:03:42]>> Yeah. Um just a fantastic uh actor, too.

[01:03:45]So, I mean, there's so many great ones, it's hard to pick, but those would be the kind of standout ones for me.

[01:03:51]>> All right. Thanks, brother. And uh Jack, if you want to and thanks again for coming on. And oh, we got we got Leland.

[01:03:57]Leland, you're you're in for the final questions here on Kino.

[01:04:02]So, if you want to ask I I can't hear you. We can't hear you.

[01:04:09]>> Leland's been doing this the entire time. We just couldn't hear him. Can't >> hear me. No, I'm here. I'm here.

[01:04:14]>> Yeah, it was a phenomenal interview. I was listening. I was in and out today for work, but a phenomenal interview.

[01:04:19]Um, and I love Bunny Coven, too, Kimmo.

[01:04:22]I just want to say that like whenever he speaks. Yeah, we interviewed him on our channel. I don't know if you had a chance to check out that interview, but you'll probably We interviewed him with Dan Duca who played his help in season 4. U So, check that out when you get a chance. question to you. I was listening to to the interview. Do you think in the future because I saw kind of like your timeline with doing wire breakdowns and wire stuff. Do you think you'll do something like every year or like what is kind of like your thought with the the whole when you release stuff on the wire kind of thing?

[01:04:56]>> Um so the the wire the retrospective was this big project. It it was kind of a one-time thing. Um I covered everything on the show that I wanted to talk about.

[01:05:05]I do have a couple ideas for like some smaller like little aspects of it. Like I did one video where I talked about like what is the game? Not just not just as the drug trade, but like what does it mean in the larger context of the show?

[01:05:17]Um I have a couple more like that I think I might do in the future. I I don't think I'm done completely with wire content, but um I just think that uh the retrospective said a lot of what I wanted to say about the show. Um, so I'm not I'm not done with it completely, but it'll be just kind of when I have a cool idea for a video.

[01:05:36]>> Okay. Because I mean, we we've we're we're trying to trailblaze for our channel, like doing some different stuff that people never seen from the wire. We released um the top women of the wire, something that >> wasn't online anywhere that I could find that we could find anywhere. So, um, anytime you do do any wire research, we love for you to use us as a reference.

[01:05:58]>> Yeah. fantastic interview done. We'd definitely appreciate that.

[01:06:02]>> Yeah, absolutely. I think your interviews are fantastic. I think you guys are doing a really great job. Um, again, I think that >> the there there are people out there talking about The Wire, but it's a very limited market of people who are like really going in depth about the show and and continuing to generate interest in it. Um, and so I think you guys are doing fantastic. I'm really glad uh to have been invited on here. I think it's amazing and I look forward to seeing more of your stuff coming out in the future.

[01:06:30]>> Yeah, real real quick just because you said that.

[01:06:33]>> Yeah.

[01:06:34]>> You know, like um >> yeah, it is like a a niche market, but there it's it's pretty big, too. I don't know if you saw a Man's World podcast, but he got like a 500,000 views on >> He did. Yeah. Um and and there are I I've had a few other wire creators, which you guys should maybe look out to them, too. There's a guy Snaz. Um, there's a guy, um, I I have the links all in my >> Well, we tried to get Kurt on the show.

[01:06:59]I mean, Kurt always shows us love, but Kurt Kurt is not one for the camera. He doesn't >> I I I feel it. Um, I Yeah, there's a lot of great um, you know, wire content creators out there, but it's just uh there's not, you know, there's there's a million people talking about Star Wars, there's a million people talking about some of these other shows. you have to be really uh dedicated to this uh the wire to want to kind of devote yourself to it. Um the chop shop uh Cinanter does, you know, wire stuff. Um uh you know, there there's a lot of great people out there do wire stuff, but um I I consider us kind of a community. Same thing with the Sopranos, right? It's like there are people who talk about the Sopranos, but there's not a whole lot. I mean, not a whole lot of real humans. There's a lot of AI channels out there now that I'm not a huge fan of, but um you know, it's a tight community with us all together who really appreciate shows like this.

[01:07:56]And um I love doing, you know, cross collaborations and stuff with them because we gota we got to support each other, you know.

[01:08:02]>> For sure.

[01:08:03]>> I kind of like that it's a niche thing though, you know, because it's like >> Yeah.

[01:08:06]>> It makes it feel kind of special, you know? It's like >> I agree. And and the people who are interested in it are dedicated to it.

[01:08:13]Like it's not it's not like people are just casually into like the wire. If you watch if you're into the wire, you're like really into the wire. So >> yeah, I agree.

[01:08:22]>> For sure.

[01:08:24]>> For sure. Well, thank you.

[01:08:28]>> Uh Jack, I'm sorry. Jack wanted to ask one last question. Go ahead.

[01:08:31]>> No, I just said thank you Kino.

[01:08:34]Uh Jesse, would you like to take us out?

[01:08:38]>> Right. Wiretap Truth. Pure Kino. Check them out on YouTube. uh the retrospective of the wire and a bunch of soprano videos were uh well worth a watch. Uh check out wiretap truce man.

[01:08:48]Uh checking out me Jack Simmons, Mr. Wiretap Truce Leland and Kino. Uh Donna Adrien Gibson, we love you. Gota send her a shout out.

[01:08:57]>> Thank you.