YOOOH “General Khan Called Us Tsotsi Police And Her Was Going To Arrest Us” Officer Marumo Mogana

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[00:00:00]Afternoon migrating commissioners.

[00:00:05]>> Thank you. Perhaps uh if uh the warrant officer could just go through the statement and then uh let the probing come afterwards.

[00:00:17]>> We are sure we'll try to do our part in that regard.

[00:00:21]>> Indeed.

[00:00:22]>> Thank you. Thank you.

[00:00:26]>> Officer M. We are about to talk about uh the arrival of warrant officer Pagula.

[00:00:35]Um that will take us to page 8 of your statement and then we can resume at paragraph 21 when it says upon warrant officer partners arrival. Can you pick it up from there please?

[00:00:50]>> Yes sir. Thank you commissioners.

[00:00:53]Upon uh warrant of Pula's arrival, we then briefed uh him about the scene and as protocol, we handed the scene over to him for further investigation and processing. Warren officer Pagula requested me to coron the scene and also in instructed me to call LCRC.

[00:01:20]Sergeant Lo assisted me with the tape to coron the area off and he also called LCRC office.

[00:01:29]While busy at the scene, more police officers from different units started arriving at the scene. Among the amongst them I can mention the following warrant officer from crime intelligence.

[00:01:44]He arrived and started asking if we have any authority or any inquiry file registered that gave us any permission to effect the arrest. He was causing some obstruction and distraction distracting us from doing our work freely. He specifically said that major general feros from crime intelligence was coming to the scene. I'm not sure what he wanted us to do with that information. So we ignored him and proceeded with our duties. But there was a lot of police h members, security officers and civilian members at the scene which made it difficult for us to work.

[00:02:33]Colel Maloy from Crime Intelligence also arrived at the scene and she was more than happy about the arrest and even complimented of the good work that we have done.

[00:02:50]Canel left Kennel Marua from DPCI national office arrived together with warrant officer Masoma also from DPCI as they were summoned by warrant officer Pakula to come and assist us with the scene. Sergeant Pakula and Sergeant Sab came together from provincial K9 unit as part of our team.

[00:03:13]Major General Khan arrived immediately after Warren Pakula.

[00:03:18]After Warren Pakula and I think Commissioner say I was supposed to say after Sergeant Pakula and Sergeant Sapp.

[00:03:29]>> Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah.

[00:03:31]>> Yeah.

[00:03:32]And the situation got out of hand. Upon his arrival, Major General Khan went straight to the warehouse and met with the Scanyia management. And after that, he came back to us and ordered us to stop with our operation. He asked who was the driver of the bag which was loaded with the bag, black bags, and I answered it was me. He then instructed me to go inside the bag.

[00:04:02]Then a big argument ensued between Major General Khan and Chief Masha whereby Major General Khan ended up disarming Chief Mashallah office service firearm and stop the guys from dog unit from searching the warehouse. I was made to sit in the car while I was photographed as if I'm a suspect.

[00:04:27]Members of DPCI from Jimin and Johannesburg arrived at the scene with man major general Kadua the provincial head of DPCI.

[00:04:38]There seems to have been a briefing between Major General Khan Brigadella left Kel Masu and Captain wherein after that warrant officer Pakula Chief Mashawa Mr. and myself were arrested and put at the back of poison SAPS bag which was driven by Sergeant New and Costir.

[00:05:09]We were we were kept at the back of the park for some times. At some stage we were then taken from a bag of uh the baggy to observe the counting of the drugs.

[00:05:25]To our surprise we find that already 10 packs were already opened.

[00:05:32]Briatira captain captain Siboula the arresting officer are the one who were in charge of the counting in counting the drugs. Each bag had 35 small bricks and a total of 350 small bricks were counted from uh the 10 bags.

[00:05:56]We were then taken back to the back of the park and driven to poison station for tenting before the counting was completed.

[00:06:10]Uh before you move to your arrest, you had deposed to another statement.

[00:06:17]Um and that statement would appear on page 3 I want you to go to 373 of the exhibit bundle.

[00:06:30]Your statement starts at page 370, but I just want you to look at 373.

[00:06:50]Now on on on that statement I want you to focus only on paragraph 23 24 25 um where you speak of your encounter with General Khan. Can you can you just read that into the record?

[00:07:07]As a result of General Khan's unprofessional behavior and obstruction, the driver No, sorry. Um, just that paragraph up.

[00:07:18]>> Which one?

[00:07:19]>> Paragraph 23.

[00:07:21]While busy at the scene, a certain Indian male who was later known to me as General Khan of crime intelligence arrived while his with his crew and all hell break all all hell broke loose as he started giving instruction. He asked who was the driver of the black Nissan park and I told him I was the driver. He then ordered me to go sit in the park. I did as instructed and he general K started calling us Zi police and said we are going to he is going to teach us a lesson. I was not even allowed to move and talk to my colleagues not even to go to the toilet. I was escorted different police officers among the colonel maso came to interview me and explain to him how I got information and came to the scene. I was also interviewed by Brigadier Seova and later a certain gentleman who introduced himself as Captain Cibula placed me under arrest. Photos were taken of me while seated in the car.

[00:08:36]As a result of General Khan's unprofessional behavior and obstruction, the driver Brighton who was already placed under arrest was released. The lady called Jolene and Cornelius were no longer cooperative.

[00:08:51]Information on who the receiver was was no longer pursued as we were now considered as suspect.

[00:09:00]All right. Um when when you say General Khan told you to sit inside the car, um how long did you have to sit inside the car? Uh rough estimate.

[00:09:11]>> Uh I was made to sit in the car.

[00:09:15]uh from I'm not too too sure as to uh what time did the general arrived but I was made to sit inside the car for almost 2 hours.

[00:09:28]>> And how was it in the car? How was the what was the situation?

[00:09:31]>> Uh the situation was uncomfortable. I was uh sitting there the sun it was hot and everything.

[00:09:42]And you also mentioned at that paragraph that you had to be escorted. What does that mean?

[00:09:49]>> Uh at some stage commissioners I wanted to go to the toilet or yes to the L. So one gentleman who arrived with General Khan escorted me to the to to to to the L back to the to the party. Did did you feel that you couldn't leave at your own um accord commissioners?

[00:10:17]>> Did you have a sense that you could not just leave unattended?

[00:10:21]>> That's correct commissioners because that's correct.

[00:10:27]>> All right. Let's then go back to your statement. Um I want us to go to paragraph 23. So we're on page 10. So you go back to your statement file and then you talk about the our arrest and detention.

[00:10:42]That's the that's the topic there.

[00:10:44]>> So must I started the paragraph 23?

[00:10:48]>> Yes. Start with we were detained.

[00:10:51]>> We were detained at Bo station for a a weekend until Monday the 12th July 2021 when we appeared at court.

[00:11:02]While at poison station holding cell, we were told allegedly by allegedly h General Kh instruction that we were not allowed to have visitors water and food. I'm referring to the food that were coming from outside.

[00:11:28]>> Oh, not the prison food but the from the visitors. hear from the visitors.

[00:11:32]>> Are you allowed to have um food while you're in prison from the outside?

[00:11:39]>> No.

[00:11:39]>> Generally, no. No, no.

[00:11:41]>> Okay.

[00:11:43]Uh we were told that on Monday at court the control prosecutor was refusing to place the matter on the role until General Card came to the court insisted that and insisted that the matter be placed on roll. The case was postponed for Tuesday the 13th of July 2021. We were transferred to Johannesburg Correctional Services which is called Sun City President. We were then reminded in Casper for another 7 days for a formal bail application.

[00:12:23]During the bail trial, Captain Sula testified that we were arrested for allegedly stealing 700 kg of cocaine. The preciding magistrate asked him if the exhibit were weight and what method of weighing was used, of which Captain Soul could not answer. The magistrate also suggested to him that captain and his team rushed to arrest us prematurely.

[00:12:58]Again we could not answer. Again he could not answer. We were ultim ultimately granted bail on the 21st of July having spent almost two weeks or 13 days in custody.

[00:13:14]I was then suspended in terms of section 432 of the SAPS act 68 of 1995 from the 9th July until the 21st.

[00:13:27]This type of suspension is applied when a member is arrested and incarcerated.

[00:13:33]It is a suspension without salary or allowances.

[00:13:37]My suspension was then uplifted after I was granted bail and I resumed my duties on the on the 22nd July 2021.

[00:13:48]I was then suspended again for a period of 6 days in terms of regulation 103 of SAPS disciplinary regulation of 2016 from the 30th September until the 20th November. I was charged with the following three charges departmental uh 3.1 regulation 54 F corruption regulation uh number three 3.2 2 regulation 54G dealing in drugs. 3.3 regulation 54 defeating the ends of justice. The chairperson of the disciplinary hearingulu found me not guilty on all charges on the 7th February 2022 attach.

[00:14:46]Uh then can I proceed?

[00:14:49]>> Do do you want to go to that ruling or you want to proceed?

[00:14:53]>> Uh it's all you can >> I don't know you direct me.

[00:14:59]>> Okay let let's proceed. If if you want to come back to it we can but let's proceed to the next paragraph and that will be 31 under the topic poisons cast 252 10 of 2021.

[00:15:14]Poisons cast 252 of 10 2021 defing the ends of justice and obstruction of police officers from executing their lawful duties. This case emanates from our arrest and detention at Iroon as overseen by General Khan, Major General Kada Briada and Captain Sibula. After a thorough and proper consultation with our legal representatives, we then decided to open a case of defeating the ends of justice against all members mentioned above. The case was transferred to iPit national office for investigation.

[00:15:57]After a lengthy slow investigation by IP, the matter was taken to the deputy public prosecutor's office in South for decision.

[00:16:11]Advocate Chowok's office decided not to prosecute them suspect in this matter and amounts reason given were that this matter was just a misunderstanding between different law enforcers which was contrary to the reason or motivation given by the same office of advocate when we presented our representation for our case to be withdrawn.

[00:16:39]IP then recommended that all members who were involved in our arrest must be charged departmentally.

[00:16:46]General Khan was charged separately and members of the PCI were not charged. The the departmental hearing of Major General Khan was precided but by leftenant general in Konazi. The Baselunatal provincial office. I testified during those proceedings dealing with the event aformentioned.

[00:17:10]Major General Khan was found not guilty for defeating the ends of justice and other charges. What I found concerning is that while the commissioner was still deciding on the verdict of Major General Khan's murder, DPC I issued a report that cleared all their members.

[00:17:31]At the same time, there were media reports that there were media reports. I think um when you go to paragraph 34 uh it's a it's a repeat. So what you can do is that if you go to at the same time you see on that paragraph then you can pick it up from there.

[00:17:58]>> That's what we should do advocating. We must just scratch out the first paragraph 34 on page 12 and he reads the complete paragraph 34 on page 13.

[00:18:11]>> That seems to be practical. Thank you, Commissioner. Kumar.

[00:18:14]>> So warrant officer just go to page 13 and read that paragraph in its entire >> from the beginning.

[00:18:20]>> Yes. In 34 years.

[00:18:22]>> I then recommended that all members who were involved in our arrest must be charged departmentally.

[00:18:29]General Khan was charged separately and members of DPCI were not charged. The departmental hearing of Major General Khan was precided by Leftenant General Konas.

[00:18:42]Natal Provincial Commission. I testified during those proceedings dealing with the events aformentioned.

[00:18:50]Major General Khan was found not guilty for defeating the ends of justice and other charges. What I found concerning is that while the commissioner was still deciding on the verdict of Major General Khan's matter, DPCI issued a report that cleared all the their members. At the same time, there were media reports that witnesses of Major General Khan's hearing, which is us, were facing an immen imminent reenrollment of their case.

[00:19:22]Uh, our case was provisionally withdrawn on the 12th November 2022.

[00:19:30]I know and understand the contents of this statement. I regard the contents of this statement to be binding on my conscience. I have no objection in taking the prescribed oath.

[00:19:43]at the end of my state.

[00:19:46]>> Thank you, General War. Dr. Saman, can I just ask you when you spoke about your arrest and detention? Um, what are the charges that are preferred against against you?

[00:20:05]I think you read the charges that that were preferred against you departmentally in terms of the criminal proceedings.

[00:20:14]Uh if uh I remember very well dealing in drugs h was one of the charges I can't remember very well.

[00:20:29]>> Sir, you don't have to guess. Please go to page 19 of the anexious uh item six after your statement. The grades are dead.

[00:21:06]Uh these are the departmental is the departmental outcome outcome of the of expeditious process against number that's my service number can must I also read the service number in >> no no don't don't don't read that We we have we have >> we have those charges. I was asking about the the criminal charges. Uh perhaps for complete sake uh go to page 276 of the exhibit bundle.

[00:21:52]Yeah. Uh, notice of rights in terms of the constitution.

[00:21:58]Uh, section 35 of act number 108 of 1996.

[00:22:02]You are being detained for the following reason dealing in drugs.

[00:22:11]Yes. is I wanted to find out were there any other charges um added to that uh subsequently?

[00:22:17]>> No, it was only this one.

[00:22:19]>> Okay.

[00:22:20]And then you mentioned that at paragraph 24 of your statement um that someone informed you uh that Cardwell had issued instructions that you are not allowed to have visitors, water and food.

[00:22:44]U back to your statement. Yeah.

[00:22:59]said paragraph 24.

[00:23:03]>> 24. Yes. Yes.

[00:23:09]While at Boen Station holding cell, we were told we were told allegedly as per General Kad's instruction that we were not allowed to have visitors, water or food.

[00:23:25]Yes. What I'm asking you is that is there reason to believe why would General Ka issue such an instructions?

[00:23:41]Erh because obviously uh we were treated or presumed to be highprofile suspect and that's why no visitors were allowed in and water and also you gave Um, you read in uh on the record that you and when you say we cuz you say we opened a case against General Khan Ka and them. Can you explain exactly who the we is?

[00:24:33]>> We is the four of us that were arrested.

[00:24:36]That will be myself, Chief Mashaba, Warren Officer Pakula and Mr. Tumongu.

[00:24:47]>> And the complaint was against who? Can you remember all of them?

[00:24:52]Uh the complaint was against General Kadwa, Major General Kadwa, Major General Khan, Bria and Captain Siba.

[00:25:12]>> Why would you open a case against the General Sena?

[00:25:18]>> General?

[00:25:20]>> Yes. Why would you specifically open a case against against?

[00:25:26]>> Because uh she she she she was uh also active in that scene.

[00:25:37]But being active does not necessarily warrant a criminal case being open. There has to be more >> than just being active.

[00:25:50]>> This was based on his senior on her seniority because she was a senior to to to to Captain Sibola.

[00:26:02]So h by so saying we assumed that maybe the instruction might have coming to her.

[00:26:14]And I think for the record we >> Yes.

[00:26:26]>> Yes. I'm talking about >> Yes.

[00:26:35]All right. And then you say that the charges were withdrawn against you in November 2022.

[00:26:44]What is the current position of of those charges as we speak?

[00:26:49]uh the the the the current situation in regard to those uh charges.

[00:26:59]H they were the case was finally we we made representation to the NPPP's office uh through our our lawyers and uh advocate h advocate.

[00:27:24]No, no, not the the the one who passed on. She she he was working at NDPP's office.

[00:27:33]Is it the >> Advocates advocate the May his soul rest in peace. He is the one who decided on our matter. So h the the the churches were finally withdrawn and that was in 2022.

[00:27:54]That's correct.

[00:27:56]>> Now, if you go to on the very same file, the statement file on page 33.

[00:28:07]So, the statement file you have with you. Um, >> yes, sir.

[00:28:13]>> I've got it there.

[00:28:15]>> You see that there's a direct there's a letter from the director of public uh prosecutions.

[00:28:22]>> I see it, commissioners. And the letter is directed to major general EA Kadwa.

[00:28:29]>> That's correct. The seat.

[00:28:30]>> Yes. And this matter it relates to the request for a reenrollment of the docket boys case number 9807 2021.

[00:28:43]And that's the matter or the state versus Muana and three others.

[00:28:49]>> That's correct.

[00:28:52]And you see that the last um the last paragraph on that letter it says this. The office has decided to prosecute the the suspect in this matter. This matter will be enrolled as soon as practically possible once the pending investigation have been finalized. And then it says on the next page, the investigation officer must please consult advocate the advocate dealing with this matter as soon as as possible. And then the letter is signed by JM Cere. What is your understanding of that letter? Warren officer.

[00:29:28]H my understanding is that uh this matter the case that was finally h decided or which was finally withdrawn by the NDPP's office there was I don't know where where is this letter coming from that the matter must be h reenrolled Have you been contacted uh since the letter in in February 2025?

[00:30:04]>> No.

[00:30:05]>> The possible reenrollment?

[00:30:07]>> Not at all. Commissioners >> and this letter before today, were you aware of it?

[00:30:18]>> Yes, I was aware of this this letter.

[00:30:21]>> How did you become aware of that letter?

[00:30:25]Uh I I I can't really remember whether it was from from from our legal representative that is dealing with our our litigation.

[00:30:55]Can I just clarify? You say um applicator withdrew the charges in 2022.

[00:31:03]>> That correct me commissioner?

[00:31:05]>> The there's a letter which talks about provisional withdrawal.

[00:31:11]>> In in that the provisional withdrawal was in October 2022. No, no, no. Can I just clarify that commission the the pro provisionally withdrawn one this one was pending the the the representations that because we first made representation to DPP's office at South K but the representation were declined so we then h escalated our representing to to to to NDPP's office. Then while we were waiting for for for for for for the representation h our case kept on being reminded then the judge that h she was no longer happy about the unnecessary postponement. So as a result, the matter was provisionally withdrawn pending the the the the outcome of the representation from the NTP's office.

[00:32:24]However, the date for the trial was set.

[00:32:28]It was arranged.

[00:32:30]But before we could the trial could even h started then we got a a a a good news that our our case has been finally withdrawn h from NDP's office that is how this matter was buried.

[00:32:55]Mr. MC, do we have the letter that confirms that final withdrawal?

[00:33:03]>> No, Commissioner. What we have is a an order that that order of provisional withdrawal, nothing else. Um perhaps to warrant Mahan's benefit. Um there is a letter that was sent by his attorneys uh to follow up on this alleged reinrollment.

[00:33:29]Uh but that letter was never responded to. But that letter um it's it's sent in 2025 in May. is the one on 29 >> and it's the one from BDK on page 29 29 of the statement file.

[00:33:56]Yeah. But that that letter speaks from the attendance speaks of the provisional withdrawal um while awaiting the decision of the national prosecuting service.

[00:34:10]And then it speaks in paragraph 3 of correspondence in 2024.

[00:34:15]So it doesn't mention a final withdrawal in 2022.

[00:34:21]>> Yes, that that's as far as we can take it, commissioner. We're not aware of anything better than that.

[00:34:28]>> Thank you, Commissioners. Sorry. Can I just clarify something? Uh I think I've shared this with uh uh the findings by uh advocate co with the the evidence leader. So I don't know maybe he might have h missed it but here's the the ruling from the the office of the NDP.

[00:34:59]Um just wait I'll try and direct you to that. Um that should be the outcome of the representations and providing reasons why uh the state is not prosecuting. Is that what you are referring to?

[00:35:14]>> Yes. Does that not have a red pageionation top right hand corner?

[00:35:23]>> Commissioner, >> does it not have a page number? Red.

[00:35:26]>> No. No. This one I just said >> you took it from elsewhere. No. Yeah, but I evidence. So, luckily I had >> Look, look at the date on the last page of that letter. We will tell you if it's in the bundle or not.

[00:35:41]>> Is it 21 June 2024?

[00:35:44]>> It is in here.

[00:35:48]>> Yes.

[00:35:49]>> Yes. Then it's on page 23 of your anexurious after that item eight commissions. I I I've got it.

[00:36:20]>> It is the same letter.

[00:36:21]>> Yeah, this is the same letter I'm talking about. I don't know if >> it is in the bundle.

[00:36:26]>> Oh, my apolog did you Is there anything you want to say about that that letter?

[00:36:35]Is is there anything you wanted to highlight to the commission?

[00:36:42]uh commissioners I I'd like to take the commissioners to paragraph 6.6 Six.

[00:36:53]This talks to the reason as to why advocate decided to withdraw the metal.

[00:37:03]H captain Siga allegedly alleged that Sergeant Do police vehicle was parked in such a way to block the way for Muana's Viking that is a black Nissan buggy not to leave the scene.

[00:37:21]uh 8.18 during the consultation with Mr. Brads it became known that photographs were taken by Scanya personnel when the container was open the set photographs were sent to Mr. breads who made them available to the state during consultation.

[00:37:44]Among requests by the prosecutor, it it it is here from the photographs that there was no vehicle blocking the way for Muana's vehicle not to leave the scene.

[00:37:58]Upon request, not a man.

[00:38:03]Uh Commissioner, uh please continue. Please pray.

[00:38:08]>> Further, further the photographs show show the moment before the containers were open until the contents were removed. Clearly indicating that Skynas personnel were not prevented from the accused from taking photos and suggesting that nothing unto what was taking place at the scene. Miss Venel also confirmed that there was no interference from the accused when they were taking photos. It will it will it would it would have been impossible for accused to to deny the existence of the drugs in question at the later stage and to deny the allitation makes against them.

[00:38:59]Sergeant Sappe stated that photo album was incomplete as their vehicle was also photographed during the incident which was done on the instruction of warrant officer records. warrant officer Wood has confronted with this allegation and she stated that upon her arrival at the scene which was already at 11:45 there was such confusion and attack and and utter chaos as a result of the size of the parking area warrant officer would could proceed to take photos to the scene. as she was normally she as she would normally do.

[00:39:47]When when they finally allowed her to the to start the entire scene was a staff up and there was no control whatsoever. She was informed that only the park was involved but later it was said that the two two more vehicles were involved. She stated that initially it was everybody. Everybody was involved then nobody then somebody. The scene was a joke. She also indicated that she only left the scene at 2 the next morning.

[00:40:24]Further warrant officer would deny that she took photographs of Sergeant Sabis biker.

[00:40:31]The scenes that were photographed in the accused possession. May I just may I just find out warrant officer whether you're going to read all the way to paragraph 10 at page 26 or you want to select certain parts.

[00:40:48]>> Uh commissioner being guided by the evidence leader I don't know if I must proceed or think you can adise me. You you you are the one who said I have a document that I have shared with the evidence leader and so that's correct.

[00:41:06]>> I thought there were certain salient points that you wanted to >> No no no actually >> to draw our attention to in that document. Now I see you are reading this entire document.

[00:41:17]>> H actually I wanted to read uh 6.6.

[00:41:22]No, because I thought the comm the evidence will stop me.

[00:41:28]Well, thanks for that. I was going to read it right through. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:41:35]And I ask you about 6.8 where they say uh officer Wood says the entire scene was a stuff up. Do you agree with her assessment that the scene was a stuff up?

[00:41:50]a a person like as I have already alluded that the scene was not properly managed >> and and who stuffed it up.

[00:41:59]Erh initially it was myself and chief mashaba then because now at this time the scene was already under the control of DPCI members >> but >> but but you had not secured it that's why it was a stuff up I agree with you commissioner >> yes I want to go back to the 7 series BMW Warren officer the this letter it's the letter that you say were um contained or advised a a final withdrawal of the charges.

[00:42:46]>> That's correct there.

[00:42:47]>> Okay. Now you had said 2022. If you look at page 26, it's in 2024, June 2024.

[00:42:56]That's the last page. And then if you go back to page 23.

[00:43:03]So it's in 2024. And then if you go back to page 23, uh you can see the subject line. Uh it the letter is addressed to major general Kadwa and then the subject line is request for reasons by yourself meaning Kadwa in the matter of state versus Makana and three other and three others.

[00:43:27]So you see that um advocate is actually responding to to to >> General Cadwa. That's correct. And then lastly and perhaps importantly to what this letter is conveying at paragraph 10 go back to paragraph 26. So before that all the many paragraphs they summarize what is in the statements and and and what those statements say. But in paragraph 10 this is what he tells Kadua not your attendees not you. Uh Deox says after careful consideration of all available evidence and factors I'm I'm of the view that there are no reasonable prospects of a successful prosecution.

[00:44:13]That's the last thing he says.

[00:44:16]>> You see that?

[00:44:16]>> I see that commissioners.

[00:44:17]>> So this letter on its face does not convey that charges have been withdrawn provisionally.

[00:44:26]>> Do you do you accept that?

[00:44:28]>> Maybe >> it doesn't say that.

[00:44:30]>> It doesn't say that.

[00:44:32]>> Okay. All right. That's all I was clarifying.

[00:44:34]>> Okay. Because maybe is that the >> because then the next thing that happened in 2025 um in February 2025 is then deputy director of public prosecutions informs General Kadra of the intention to reinstate.

[00:44:54]You see that?

[00:44:55]>> I see that.

[00:44:55]>> And that you find at page 27.

[00:45:03]I see the commissioners.

[00:45:04]>> Yes. Okay. I was just clarifying. No, no. Now it's it's clarity. So meaning the matter is still >> alive. Sorry.

[00:45:16]>> Sorry. Still alive. I think to be fair to you warrant officer on page 32, the NPA wrote a letter in which they say they agree with the recommendations not to pursue the prosecutions here in and they say they are aware that the matter was struck from the role. So it may be that this is what you're referring to when you say there was a provisional withdrawal because you said there was a date and the matter went to court. They kept asking for postponements until the judge or magistrate got upset with them.

[00:45:54]>> That was in 2022.

[00:45:56]>> 2022.

[00:45:57]>> Yes.

[00:45:57]>> Okay. And then and then 24 is the letter that Commissioner Kumalo is referring to where they say we agree with the recommendations not to pursue the prosecution. That's in January 24. You see that >> I see that then I follow.

[00:46:15]>> Then in 25 you have the prosecution uh the deputy director saying they will reinstate at page 28. It ends >> past the day three.

[00:46:31]>> Is it the one that commissioner is talking about?

[00:46:33]>> Yeah, it's the same letter actually there. Yes, it's exactly the same letter that is at page 27. So yes, that that's in 2025.

[00:46:41]>> I see that there commissioner.

[00:46:42]>> Okay. All right. Thank you.

[00:46:46]>> Warren, I wanted to go back to the BMW 7 series. It's not clear to me what happened to that vehicle and the occupant of that vehicle once the other police officers arrived at the scene and you were asked to sit in your car by General Khan and at some point you were then detained and taken to Bo's uh police station.

[00:47:10]>> That's correct.

[00:47:11]>> What happened to the BMW RF7 series and the occupant of that vehicle? Was he also arrested?

[00:47:19]He was arrested with you and taken to >> to poison.

[00:47:22]>> Two poisons.

[00:47:23]>> Yes.

[00:47:24]>> And do you know what happened to the charges against him?

[00:47:27]>> No, we were all charged with the same charges.

[00:47:30]>> You were all charged.

[00:47:30]>> He was accused number four.

[00:47:32]>> Yes.

[00:47:33]>> In our case.

[00:47:34]>> And throughout the process as you were instructing the Scania people to assist you to load the bags onto your van, what was the owner of this vehicle doing?

[00:47:46]because we know he was there at the scene. We saw the vehicle. What was he doing as the bags were being loaded onto your bucket?

[00:47:55]>> He was uh sitting in his car.

[00:47:58]>> Sitting in his car >> the whole time.

[00:48:00]>> Just observing.

[00:48:01]>> Yes, that's correct. Commissioners, >> and why did you not ask him to leave?

[00:48:06]Because you had now established that there were bags in the truck that were not supposed to be there. You've taken custody of them.

[00:48:18]They are now in the back of your Nissan Baky. What was he still doing there?

[00:48:25]>> Commissioners, as I've indicated earlier that according to Mr. whose handler which is chief mashaba he explained that hungu had previously gave information uh to other police.

[00:48:46]So the the the the outcome tense that the information was positive but was told that h they didn't find anything.

[00:48:58]>> Yes. Now we are at the stage where his information has checked out. You've now established that there are these bags in the container.

[00:49:09]You've asked that the truck be moved forward so that you can remove the bags from the container. The bags are being removed. You even said you affected arrest of three people, the driver and two other people. My question is the information has checked out. What is the occupant of the BMW still doing there?

[00:49:31]Because now you know that he has given you the information with Mashaba. The information has checked out. Why do you not excuse him? Why does he remain at the scene together with these bags while all of you are there? Was the plan that you were going to leave together with him and go book these drugs in his presence?

[00:49:52]>> No, no, no, no.

[00:49:53]>> So, what was he still doing there? I definitely cannot answer to that one >> because you now had custody of the drugs. They are in your van. They are not in Mashaba's car.

[00:50:03]>> That's correct. The commissioner >> and you can't explain why he remained at the crime scene.

[00:50:10]>> I would say so.

[00:50:12]>> But you are a police officer, warrant officer.

[00:50:15]>> No, I agree.

[00:50:16]>> Were you not putting him in danger?

[00:50:18]You've recovered, we now know 715 kg of cocaine.

[00:50:24]and you know who the informant is who assisted the police in that regard. Are you not exposing the informant to danger? Because if those drugs belonged to the people at Scania, then surely they would know who the informant was because he's in plain sight parked his car next to Mashaba's vehicle. Was that not a concern for you?

[00:50:48]>> No, it didn't cross my mind. I I have a worry that the presence of that person there was to look at those drugs and to see what was to happen to them. And I I put it no higher than that that it is a worry and a suspicion. I'm not stating it as a fact and I'm doing it only to test your thought on this issue. I want to hear what your comment is.

[00:51:13]>> Uh really I won't have an an an an an honest answer to that. Uh I would also say he can in fact it was worrying but since a commissioners this guy was not taking any part and he was always in his car.

[00:51:38]>> Yeah. Because informants usually don't want to be found out. They don't expose themselves and show whoever the perpetrator is that I'm part of this operation. That's that's not consistent with behavior of an informant.

[00:51:54]An informant gives information and they have nothing to do with the operation.

[00:51:59]But this one that follows the police and goes to the scene of the raid and remains until he's arrested later in the day. I I find that really troubling.

[00:52:13]>> I don't have any comment for that commissioner.

[00:52:16]>> Thank you.

[00:52:17]We also heard from evidence here that in fact police officers refuse to tell other police officers who their influence are because they don't want to place their sources at risk. And here you are in full plain sight of everybody, the police, the Scania people who are members of the public really. But as Commissioner Kumalo says uh the person who has disclosed made a disclosure about the drugs, you the one subs member who was early on the scene do not see the risk or problem of exposing someone who has been said to be an informer.

[00:53:10]Do you do so I share that concern. Do do you know anything about handling informers?

[00:53:17]>> That's correct. I I know I've attended a handling inform course.

[00:53:22]>> Okay. And you you you had no problem here. You didn't see the problem that you've got an informer who not only is exposed but in fact ends up being arrested actually.

[00:53:33]>> Uh I would prefer to this question commissioners.

[00:53:39]Actually it depends on the handler.

[00:53:43]It depends on the handler because sometimes I've worked operations with other members where I will find that there's a handler inside the I mean there's an informer inside the handler's car that one I can attest to that so that like I'm saying that it solely depend on the handler because as the handler you are the principle of your informant.

[00:54:16]>> Can you imagine a reason or think of a reason why a traffic officer or traffic official would have an inform?

[00:54:27]>> No, no, no. It helps it helps a lot because other other cases h you need an informer to to to2 to2 to2 to2 to2 to2 to2 to2 to2 to2 to two to solve them like >> what to to issue tickets.

[00:54:47]>> No, no. Uh commissioners put up a speed trap. I just explain >> what what role you see for an informer or for a traffic officer in you know the functions of a traffic officer, right?

[00:55:02]What role or what need you see would be served by a traffic officer having an informer.

[00:55:10]I ask genuinely because I can also >> I can't think of any reason to be honest with the commissioners hing traffic police they are the the only thing that h they don't do of which h I can I can I can put my neck on the block they don't do investigation They have got units like their crime intelligence within them. They've got a saturation uh unit that deals with hijackings and other crimes and I understand from Mr. Mashaba. Mashaba is currently a a a head a provincial head of a unit called SLE.

[00:56:10]It's for special law enforcement unit. They do almost every that's why they even have an airing when there are CITs they also respond.

[00:56:30]>> Thank you.

[00:56:33]Warrant Officer Mahan, can you um on the exhibit file go to page uh 31 31?

[00:56:44]That's the bigger file.

[00:57:02]That is the inside.

[00:57:06]That is the inside of a BMW. You accept that in that picture?

[00:57:12]>> I see the commissioners.

[00:57:14]>> You accept that? Uh that it's an inside of a BMW.

[00:57:18]>> Uh I see the this picture.

[00:57:21]>> You see the steering? What's on the steering there? What emblem is there?

[00:57:27]Next to this thing, there's water >> on the steering. The emblem is there.

[00:57:37]>> Thank you. And then if you go to the next page, you will see that on photo 23 and 24, it's the same inside of the BMW.

[00:57:50]But in particular on photo 24 you will see that there in orange there is what looks like a amount of money.

[00:57:59]>> I see that commissioners.

[00:58:01]>> And then if you go on page 33 uh the top picture there is a at least there is there is quite clear there that there is an amount of money there. Um do you know anything about that money? Not at all. I don't I don't have any idea.

[00:58:21]>> Okay. What we are told is that Mr. That's Mr. and he had with him that amount was a total of 60,000 rand.

[00:58:32]>> I heard about that.

[00:58:33]>> Yes. And what I wanted to ask you and get your comment is that the theory is that that money was possibly going to use to be used to pay either you or Mr. the mashaba or both of you as a reward for recovering the drugs.

[00:58:54]What's your comment? I I totally disagree with that comment because h I mean even if h they say e I'm very cheap I wouldn't change drugs worth 200 million for a 60,000 That's that's my take. I don't >> you you did not know how much the drugs were worth at the time.

[00:59:30]>> So you you cannot say I wouldn't change drugs worth 200 million for 60,000. You you had not seen the drugs. So you don't know how much they were worth?

[00:59:41]>> No, no, no. I'm answering because I know that that those drugs worth 250 million.

[00:59:48]>> Only know now. on the day you did not know >> but uh to be quite honest with you commissioners I wouldn't do that >> is it not unusual for an informant to walk around with 60,000 rand in cash >> uh commissioners uh to be to be honest with you uh Mr. H when he was introduced to me because I wanted to have a background but even though we didn't engage much because of time and everything I was told is a businessman who was in a distribution a sector he had some distribution h companies in limbo >> distribution of what coke and >> cocaine No, no, no, no, no. Coca-Cola, not No, no, no, no, no, not not not co as in a cocaine.

[01:00:53]>> No, no. I just clarifying.

[01:00:54]>> No, no, no. Not that one. E.

[01:00:58]And because it was for the first time, I mean, he he looked presentable and smart and everything. and driving a new 7 series BMW.

[01:01:15]>> That's correct.

[01:01:17]>> You said you were told he's an informer.

[01:01:20]>> No, no, no. He's an informer. Beside being an informer, he was running his business, not that he was living as an informer. No, >> let's go to page 396. Uh, >> can you just uh page 35 and 36 that is still the same BMW? And I could be wrong. Can you just clarify why? Why is that money now in police bags? Is it after it was recovered by the police?

[01:01:57]>> H even though I'm not privy because I didn't, but I would assume that it was now inside an evidence bag. So he he did not have police exhibit bags. I think that's the point I'm driving at.

[01:02:10]>> No, no, no. I think this was subsequent to his arrest >> after it was recovered in his car.

[01:02:15]>> That's correct.

[01:02:16]>> Thank you.

[01:02:18]>> Um, thank you, Commissioner. Can we go to page 396?

[01:02:25]Uh, we are on the same bundle. Okay, finally.

[01:02:48]Now during your exchange with Commissioner Baloy um you were quite adamant that while your black bike was loaded you were nowhere in position or of intention to leave the premises.

[01:03:05]>> That's correct. Can you then please for the record read in what is stated there at paragraph 6 uh just to assist you in terms of this is a statement by one Jolene Wel or Kukamul as it seems to be made in Sen of Scania.

[01:03:26]>> As we opened the container black bags fell out of the container and the police officer said it was drug. The police then instructed us to load them inside the Nissan buggy. And after loading them, the tall officer came with cable ties and said, "He is arresting us. You are arresting me for receiving the goods. The the driver was transporting the goods from Deon and Cornelius was Cornelius because the goods belong to him. He said they will be taking us to nearest police station and I called my director informing informing him about the the arrest and that we must meet at the police station >> and then go to paragraph 7.

[01:04:16]>> I told them that I won't go with them but I will drive my car. I then came to my office to collect my belongings and went back. When I got back to the container, police from poisons arrived.

[01:04:30]After some times, the police officer who was in the red vehicle also arrived and obtained my statement. While we were still busy writing my statement, police from flying squad and the hawks also arrived. They dealt with the situation.

[01:04:48]At about 1,700 hours, the police officers were who arrived first and the warehouse were arrested by the police police officers who alleged.

[01:05:03]No, that's fine. You can you can leave it there. What I wanted to demonstrate to you is that even this evidence uh by Jolene in accords with what you had informed uh your colleagues that you were going to leave the premises and as commissioner Baloy in fact uh suggested to you that it is the presence or the arrival of the poisons that stopped your move as it's quite clear here that Miss Jolene was informed that she will be taken to the police station and the only thing she asked is that I told that I won't go with them but I will drive my car and then he went to the office to collect belongings and went back.

[01:05:50]What is your comment?

[01:05:51]>> Uh I differ with this uh statement from Julian.

[01:05:56]I differ completely. So you you differ in in in respect of what she that we were in intending to leave before the sin was processed. I still stand by my words that >> so so then your testimony is that she is she is incorrect to say that and then warrant officer Pagula has to be also incorrect and also because the same information was relayed to Captain Midi that is also incorrect. So you have three people according to you that are lying about your intentions to leave and the only person who's telling the truth is you that you never intended to leave despite your bike being in a position to go. I was I'm the one who was at the scene like I'm saying we it was still early for us to leave the scene. the sin was still going to be processed. If I still maintain that if we had intention to leave, we would have left even before e e the poisons arrived because they came 30 minutes later.

[01:07:14]We will we'll come back to that because it was what what what we know is that at least you were you were you were distracted by the falling of the bag.

[01:07:23]One of the bags was stuck. That's why you couldn't leave as quickly as you wanted to. Why do you say to that?

[01:07:30]H I also say that's not correct. Erh like now we talking about the intention to leave and uh there are there are allegation or here says that my my body was blocked while leaving the scene and I can challenge this commission that if that is the case if a footage can be brought that will suggest that my car was leaving then I must go straight to jail.

[01:08:11]>> No, no. The evidence it's it's quite clear and we've seen from the photos is that your bike was loaded.

[01:08:19]You yourself testified that you told uh the officers from boys that you were going to take those so you were leaving.

[01:08:28]you're going to take those bags with you to uh Albertton. The same message is contained in more than two state at least in more than two statements. One by um two statements by Warren Officer Pagula and one statement by Captain Midup and also the fourth person. Now what is the fourth statement by Jodin Kukamurus as the same thing of your intention to leave?

[01:08:57]H like I'm saying I won't I I won't agree to this and I I don't even e agree to that that our intention was to leave the scene that is incorrect I I won't take it higher than that except to say to you your your vision given what I have told you and these are versions that were given under oath as Uh it's highly probable given the overwhelming evidence in front of the commission that you had every intention to leave.

[01:09:36]>> Uh if if if if that that that's the the I would say if it's that's the opinion h I'm blatantly saying no that's not that's not correct and I will stand by my words.

[01:09:53]>> Yes. No, that that that I understand to be your your final answer despite the the overwhelming evidence and and you say that the only time you lied is that you lied to the boys's uh officials about your intention to leave and take those two to Albert.

[01:10:12]>> Can I answer that?

[01:10:14]>> Yes, you can answer that. uh commissioners in our conversation there's nowhere in our conversation between h myself chief mashaba and the poisons there was no way e I said or we said we leaving the only thing that we said it was we were talking about the detention of the suspect and e the booking of the exhibit.

[01:10:54]I I won't belabor the point. Let's go to there's a file um it should say on the spine. It should say um France stay in file.

[01:11:08]>> Yes. Um they will assist you to get to that file. And I want you to get to one page to page 137 of that file.

[01:11:36]>> Yeah.

[01:11:37]>> Yes. Um this is a national instruction one of 2025 and it provides different phases uh that must be followed when handling uh exhibits and situations like this. But I want us to focus on you will see if you go to at page 136 just the page before this phase is called the reporting phase and then I want you to go to the next page on 137 and read into the record what it says there under four. Uh, I'm lost where I go to >> 137.

[01:12:21]>> Then there's a a score for up >> record of all action on the computerized system.

[01:12:27]>> No, no, no.

[01:12:29]>> Top of the page on top. Oh, any member who arrives at the scene of crime first must take the responsibility of the first responder as set out in this national instruction until an appropriate member from the division visible policing or detective service takes over this responsibility >> and at least you'll accept that you you would be the first responder to the situation.

[01:13:01]That's correct.

[01:13:02]>> Now, please go to the bottom of the of the page at 10 says responding phase.

[01:13:09]>> Sorry. Can he read B also? He read only A before he goes to the responding phase.

[01:13:14]>> Please read B on four. So, he did 4 A then do 4 B. Report his or her arrival at the crime scene to the appropriate dispatch at the community service center or 101 center.

[01:13:29]>> Did Did you do that?

[01:13:30]>> No. No, no, I didn't.

[01:13:34]>> Then let's go to 10 responding phase and read one. The first responder must approach the crime scene with due consideration to his or her own safety, the safety of others, and the preservation and the integrity of the crimes.

[01:13:55]>> And according to your good self, did you do any of those?

[01:14:00]H the the the preservation and integrity of the crime scene.

[01:14:09]Uh that one I tried my level best >> and the safety of others. No, no, no, no, no. You you you cannot even begin to say that. Warren officer, you accepted earlier when basically all three of us engaged you that uh uh the commissioners shall say it was an oversight.

[01:14:33]>> The container was opened. The seal was broken in fact and the container was opened. No pictures were taken before any of that was done.

[01:14:46]And then a number of people handled the the bags with their bare hands and lumped them lumped them onto the back of your bucky. Everything was a stuffer as one of the the people who prepared these reports said and you accepted that it was a stuffer. So you cannot even begin to say that you did your best to to preserve the scene. You cannot.

[01:15:17]>> I agree commissioners.

[01:15:18]>> Thank you.

[01:15:20]>> Uh please try to remember your testimony so that you don't appear uh to be at least um committing pery or at least providing contrary versions. Now when you go to 1A and we talk about your own safety, you were asked earlier on by Commissioner uh Kumar as well to say you did not consider or at least ensure that your own safety was intact more so that you chose to drive to a position or to a situation where they could potentially or there's a risk that there could be even an ambush because you are escorting a drug a drug full with at least suspected drugs and without any uh protection.

[01:16:06]You accepted that?

[01:16:07]>> I accept that.

[01:16:08]>> Yes. And the same would apply when I p when I asked you specifically to say to you, do you find it appropriate and safe for Mingu himself to be there in situations where he had provided you with all the necessary information? H do you remember that?

[01:16:26]>> I remember that commissioners >> and I I say to his safety as well was not taken into account.

[01:16:32]Did you accept that? I >> accept that.

[01:16:34]>> Yes. Then let's go to the next page. 138 page >> 138. 138.

[01:16:43]>> 138.

[01:16:44]>> Yes. Go on top. There's three. The first responder must >> The first responder must access the situation with regard to initial observation.

[01:16:53]Arrest the suspect as per the prescriber.

[01:16:56]Maintain the first responder report. an extra D2 and ensure that all unauthorized persons are removed from the crime scenes and they remain outside the outer column and um at least on this call you'll accept that you did not uh especially on the last one you did not ensure that all unauthorized persons are removed from the scene and they remain outside the outside court of in fact you did the opposite because you You you allowed the civilians to handle the the exhibit. You accept that?

[01:17:34]>> I accept that.

[01:17:37]>> What is the first responder report uh and actually D2? What goes into that?

[01:17:45]>> Uh the first uh respond report.

[01:17:56]Uh, I'm not too sure about this.

[01:18:00]>> Okay. So, you didn't complete it. That's what it means. I mean, you're not sure what it is. We must take it. You didn't You didn't complete it.

[01:18:08]>> No, I didn't complete it.

[01:18:09]>> Okay. I think in this case commissioners they are talking about a let's say a a medicine whereby maybe this was dispatched from 101 >> why why do you say that you don't know what the report is they did to an extra so you can't speak to when does it apply I'm happy with your answer or to leave it at You're saying you don't you're not sure what is this due to?

[01:18:43]>> I'll take that and leave it at that.

[01:18:44]>> I'm not sure about that.

[01:18:45]>> Okay.

[01:18:48]>> This is broadly about uh crime scene management. That's what it is. So it's not about murder or any specific or particulars in crime scene management.

[01:19:03]>> Okay. You accept that?

[01:19:04]>> Accept that >> it doesn't apply to just ma.

[01:19:07]>> Okay. And you you've accepted to Mr. to the evidence leader that you were the first responder at this scene.

[01:19:18]>> That correct?

[01:19:19]>> Okay. Now, um I'm I'm a bit confused because much earlier you said this was Mr. Mashaba's scene.

[01:19:28]You said it was Chief Mashaba scene.

[01:19:31]Now, we know there's a national instruction that instructs every OAPs member that if you're the first one in the scene, here's what you get to do.

[01:19:39]You did not do that. You let you let Chief Mashaba be the owner of the scene.

[01:19:46]Can you just explain it just to make sure that I don't miss it?

[01:19:49]>> By the virtue of Chief Mashaba being the the custodian of the information and a commission officer.

[01:20:00]Erh he he he he who he who he who he who he who he who he who he who he who he who he who was also responsible for for or it was also >> Are you saying what you read earlier doesn't apply to you? I mean you you were the first SAP member on the scene acting on information from a traffic officer and an informer. you're the subs member on the scene and you've accepted that you're a first responder and you accept I thought that what you read earlier um in the reporting phase that you accept that it applies to it applied to you on the day did I misunderstand you in >> No no no correct there >> okay so so another thing that we see is you go there with an informer and someone who gave you the information which is what Chief Mashaba is here. Uh you get there and you let him be in charge of the scene notwithstanding 8 um that which you read uh 84 A and B.

[01:21:14]You did not you did not comply with that.

[01:21:21]>> I I take that commissioner.

[01:21:23]>> Okay. You accept that?

[01:21:24]>> Yes, Commissioner.

[01:21:25]>> All right. Thanks Mr. >> Are you are you aware officer that there's another national instruction is that one of 2017 that uh General Musiki referred to in relation to the Port Shepstone bust. Are you aware that there's another national instruction that deals specifically with handling of drug bus and drug scenes?

[01:21:50]Are you aware of that?

[01:21:52]>> No, I am not aware of that, Commissioner. And I assume then you don't know what it says.

[01:21:57]>> No.

[01:21:58]>> Do you see why it was inappropriate for you to be at a drug bust to begin with?

[01:22:07]>> You're simply not qualified to be there.

[01:22:09]I think that point was made earlier.

[01:22:13]>> I agree. And even if we were relying only on this national instruction that deals with crime scenes, we looked at eight uh even nine. If you go to page 137, uh item 10, paragraph 10. Remember we dealt with item 8 and I asked you to read B and B deals with the reporting phase.

[01:22:40]that even the responding phase. If you look at sub two, bottom of the page on 137, on arrival at the crime scene, the first responder must confirm his or her arrival at the crime scene to the dispatcher.

[01:22:56]So you you must still call 101 and say, "I'm at a crime scene. I need support.

[01:23:03]This is what the complaint is about. I need people who are qualified to handle this thing. You had no business going there telling people to open the container and to take out bags from the container. That is simply not your job.

[01:23:21]And you had no business doing that.

[01:23:25]You want to comment?

[01:23:26]>> No comment.

[01:23:30]>> And this doesn't just apply. I hope it's a lesson not just to you but other officers who are in your possession because they may never get the opportunity to sit where you are sitting but they must also know that there are prescripts that are applicable to how police perform their functions and they must familiarize themselves with those prescripts so that they do not get into trouble. Do you accept that?

[01:23:58]>> I accept that. I don't take it lightly.

[01:24:01]It's not that.

[01:24:04]>> Okay. Then let's let's uh deal with the the last section I want to refer to which is the controlling phase. Can you read that into the record? So 11. The first responder must execute.

[01:24:17]>> The first responder must execute all the duties of a crime scene commander until the hand over to the scene crime management. I mean crime scene commander has been completed.

[01:24:29]Taking control and evaluation of the crime scene. The first responder upon arrival at the scene must after taking all the necessary steps to prevent the contamination and disturbance of the crime scene assume control of the crime scene from the relevant party by accepting the handover of the crime scene from such party. Identify the nature of the incident. Give seat drop to the dispatcher.

[01:25:01]Arrange for the suspect to be removed from the crime scene as soon as possible if an arrest has been made with due consideration of the integrity of physical evidence. Assist the injured person if the member or is competent and certified or contact relevant authorities as the matter of priority.

[01:25:26]documents document the place where the injured person was found and make notes accordingly. I think it's fine that the rest they talk about where there is um injuries or possible um fatalities which we we not there um you can go to B.

[01:25:48]After taking control of the crime scene, the first responder must evaluate the safety status of the crime scene and request assistance of a safety official as identified and in accordance with the contingency plan if required.

[01:26:06]The first responder must direct the emergency services and other official role players at the scene to prevent evidence from being disturbed or contaminated.

[01:26:19]Let's go to three. I just want you to read into the record. 3B.

[01:26:24]The first responder must secure and protect the crime scene by establish establishing an inner cordon around the perimeter of the crime scene as well as an out cordon around the inner cordon to enable members to perform their task within the inner cordon.

[01:26:47]Protecting obvious and evident exhibit from contamination and element of destruction.

[01:26:54]Completing the exhibit log. If the exhibit have to be removed at a crime scene, this information need to be given the crime scene examiner upon his or her arrival to indicate the original position of the exhibit as found at the crime scene and to capture it on the drawing plan >> dealing with that's fine.

[01:27:20]>> Yeah. 3A says you must you must establish a an inner cordon around the perimeter of the crime scene. That was not down here.

[01:27:32]>> The in you didn't you didn't create as the first responder. You did not create a cordon of the crime scene, did you?

[01:27:42]>> With the assistance of the poisons.

[01:27:45]>> Yes. Before they arrived. We we know you started doing things before the boys and people arrived and I'm asking you about before the boys and people arrived. You had not created any coordinate >> that was not done.

[01:27:56]>> Yes. Thank you.

[01:27:58]>> Did did you complete an extra D5 the exhibits log because this had to be completed before you move them from the container to your vehicle.

[01:28:12]H commissioners I don't know but this is what is this it is because h actually I would say nothing was done h because we were waiting uh for other role players to to to arrive >> but you've already removed the exhibits from the primary scene which is the container And you have put them in the back of your bucky. And it says here in C, you must complete the exhibit log if the exhibits have to be moved at the crime scene. Do you see that? It says that in C >> the exhibit was not yet moved and >> No, but you moved them from the container to your back.

[01:29:05]>> Yeah.

[01:29:05]>> But we were still at the scene.

[01:29:09]So what then is the primary scene according to you? So the sin is the scenia complex. It's not the container.

[01:29:18]According to you, as long as they are in the Scania uh campus, for lack of a better word, they are still on the scene. They were not moved from the primary scene.

[01:29:29]>> I would say I will agree. So even if they were in the back of the 7 series BMW, according to you, that would still be at the scene.

[01:29:40]>> There were no way. There was no way that they would be.

[01:29:43]>> No, I qualified it with an if. I didn't suggest that they were there. I said if they were taken out of the container and put in the back of the 7 series BMW, they would still not have moved from the primary scene. according to you >> I'm having a problem with the the seven because it's not a state a biking I have a problem that it was there in the first place so what I'm putting to you is a proposition because you are saying the scene is the entire scenia campus now since the BMW was in the campus within the campus on your logic even if this exhibits were put inside the BMW they still would not have been moved from the primary scene because that whole place is the scene commissioner you know I I wouldn't I don't want to h associate or take the exhibit into the PM because it's not a state value >> I will leave it there >> okay let let me try and help complete this three C says is the information needs to be given to the crime scene examiner upon his arrival to indicate and underline this the original position of the exhibits as found at the crime scene and to capture it on the drawing plan. So the original position of these exhibits would have been the container and where you say they fell when you opened the door and they fell before you took any of them onto your your balia.

[01:31:29]According to 3C, that is the original um place or position of the exhibits when you found them. It's in the thingy and in the in the container and on the ground where you say they fell.

[01:31:47]Uh commissioners or I'm asking for a comport break here I it's it's almost 4:00 I think we can we can end it here chair unless >> there are further questions I had one >> let's let's take a quick quick break we'll come back just now Jen