ReefDudes Live Saltwater Reef Chat Q&A with Than from Tidal Gardens

[00:00:23]What is going on, guys? Welcome to the Wednesday night live stream with the one and only Than from Tidal Gardens. How you doing, buddy? Good. How's it going?

[00:00:31]>> Wonderful. Thank you. I think we're going to crown you the urgent king now.

[00:00:36]>> The funny thing is like I'm by no means the first person to do this stuff, right? This stuff has probably been done since like the 1940s, but I think it's just like not a lot of people did like extensive videos on the topic >> and that changes things.

[00:00:55]>> That's fair. Was it a challenge to figure out how to do it in the first place in doing it >> kind of? So, I think the the issue is that um the people that have done it before, they think it's super easy because they've done it before, but for somebody that's never done it before, like every single part of it seems like foreign, >> seems like a really alien process. Like it's like I don't know if this is this is what it's supposed to look like. I don't know if I'm doing any of this right.

[00:01:27]>> Yeah. That >> sort of thing. And so when somebody like Jamie Craigs in the UK says, "Oh, this is super easy." Yeah, it's easy for you.

[00:01:35]It's like you've been doing this for years and you have like, you know, like trained staff and a lab and you yourself are a researcher. Like there's it's always coming from a different place. But >> he doesn't have to think about it anymore. He's done it so many times.

[00:01:52]>> Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, oh, of course it's it's no big deal. It's easy.

[00:01:55]But I I do see that like once you've done it once successfully, >> I can see where people could think it's easier, but it's only because like now you know what you're looking for.

[00:02:07]>> Yeah.

[00:02:07]>> And like and going at it the first time, you don't know what anything is supposed to look like. That's trickier.

[00:02:13]>> No, that makes sense. And I was amazed at how many babies actually come out of it, >> you know, potentially because you said you're ballparking probably a thousand and you said that was, you know, potentially, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of them potentially. You keep finding new ones, which is pretty cool in your latest video. So, >> yeah. And again, it's like hopefully so, knock on wood, I think um at that at that stage where it's kind of smooth sailing like the especially the large urchins can already eat algae and that's that's fairly easy to keep up with. You can buy nori, you can buy comoo, you can get macro algae for your tanks, all that stuff. But um now leading up to that it was kind of tricky. Uh, but hopefully I don't run into like some unexpected difficulty. Or hopefully I don't introduce them too early and then a fox face comes down and eats like 50 of them in like 5 seconds.

[00:03:09]>> Yeah, >> that sort of thing.

[00:03:10]>> That would suck.

[00:03:13]>> Yeah, I guess fish predators not something you consider, but it's definitely a risk. Yeah, I did learn because of like the the whole breeding process of urchins that they have these like uh weird like tentacles with what looks like a threepronged claw at the end.

[00:03:31]>> Yeah.

[00:03:32]>> And I forget what they're called like pendrailia day or something like that.

[00:03:36]But it's like a it's a specialized venomous foot thing that's supposed to like fight off stuff like fish.

[00:03:45]>> Huh. Good to know.

[00:03:48]>> I have to give you a shout out for your videography. You had some really great shots and like macro close-ups of the little, you know, they're like pin head size like the some really good shots of it. So, >> thanks.

[00:03:59]>> Big shout out on that front which is good. So, have the have the corals and the rest of the stuff been getting love these days or they just on the side burner of the original project?

[00:04:07]>> They're very very back burner for me.

[00:04:10]However, I do have to say that like um every now and again I do kind of like walk the floor and uh and as a way to like unwind a little bit, I siphon tanks.

[00:04:23]>> So I I tend to like, you know, deal with like a big macro issue like that. And um that is also like a good way to kind of get back in touch with u with the coral stuff. And you know, since like we we use like a lot of project management software, if I ever see anything that's kind of like concerning or anything like that, I just like make a note of it and assign somebody a task and they'll get to it whenever.

[00:04:46]>> Yeah.

[00:04:47]>> Because it's a you can't you just can't see everything. I mean, even like the people that are always like, you know, working on the tanks and packing corals and stuff like that, it's it's really easy to like just be blind to stuff that's like in front of you.

[00:05:01]>> Yep. No, it's good. So, actually Yeah. I mean, that's project management. That sounds so hardcore for like a coral facility, but I guess it makes sense, right? You're like, "Hey, here's all the stuff on the the [ __ ] list, more or less, right? Okay, someone someone's assigned to it. Someone's got to deal with it."

[00:05:15]>> Well, it's not just that, but it's like if I if I don't write it down and assign it to somebody, I'll just forget about it and it just will never get done.

[00:05:22]And and the other thing that I think that people especially once you get more into like management >> um you start to realize kind of late in life that people can't read your mind.

[00:05:36]>> So like if you see a problem and you just kind of like assume that the staff will eventually see it also, they'll never see it.

[00:05:44]>> Yeah.

[00:05:44]>> So no, just write it down, assign it to somebody, it'll get taken care of.

[00:05:51]No, that's fair enough. So, a little therapeutic siphoning once in a while. I mean, is a good way because it kind of makes you stand there and stare at the same tank and look around it for a while, too, instead of just Especially when you have so many tanks, right? Cuz it's not like you have a tank or two.

[00:06:04]You have a lot of tanks in there.

[00:06:06]>> Countless. Like, literally have no idea how many.

[00:06:09]>> Yeah, >> it changes all the time.

[00:06:11]>> So, once you win the urgent breeding checklist, what's what's on the next on the project? Is there anything else in the horizon that you wanted to do?

[00:06:20]uh kind of but it might be like extremely wishful thinking and and it's one of those things where it's you have to be careful what you wish for. Um so I went to Reef Retreat in Rhode Island at Roger Williams University. So this is like the second time that they held this event. I heard many good things about the first one. So I was like curious because I'm I'm in the mood for events that aren't trade shows. Yeah.

[00:06:45]>> Right. So, like my open house was an event, not a trade show. And it was like a really good time because tends to be like my favorite parts of a trade show are the non-trade show parts.

[00:06:58]>> I don't actually care at all about the booths.

[00:07:02]>> I don't care about looking around at corals to to purchase it. That's not my thing either, believe it or not.

[00:07:11]>> Uh, you have enough at home.

[00:07:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like I got corals at home, right?

[00:07:16]>> But it's the it's a socialization time especially with people in the industry.

[00:07:21]>> Yeah.

[00:07:21]>> And I I just like to talk shop with people. Um or you you're talking shop with like specialists that otherwise you would not be like interacting with. And the problem with like a regular trade show is that the people have to work a booth for like eight hours. And so like I don't want to get into their way because they're they're literally working and you know they're they have to to interface with the public and all that. So really your time with a lot of these people get shrunken down to like dinners and after hours.

[00:07:50]>> Yeah.

[00:07:51]>> So the cool thing about Reef Retreat was that I would say like 80% of it seemingly is that socialization time.

[00:08:01]>> So you eat at a cafeteria if you want. I mean you you bought into a meal plan. So there's like the university cafeteria.

[00:08:08]Everybody's there for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for most nights. And there there's talks and stuff, right? There's talks for for two solid days, but the rest of the time it it's really just a lot of socialization.

[00:08:22]So I got some really really cool um into some really really cool discussions. And to go all the way back to your question, um there's several people there that are uh propagating, not propagating, they're breeding corals, >> and you know, I'm already in touch with like obviously Jamie in the UK, Jamie Craigs, >> and uh I'm also in touch with like the folks at Cyre in Germany. So like, you know, we always dabble with the idea of of coral spotting here. They're already doing it. I'm I'm dabbling.

[00:08:54]>> Mhm.

[00:08:55]>> But talking with more people there, like Rich Ross, he he's doing some coral spawning at his house and and it's like, boy, do I really want to take that leap because that's a lot of work potentially. That's a very different system that's going to take up some serious floor space and it could be very unproductive after about 12 to 18 months of work.

[00:09:18]>> Yeah. So that's, you know, that's a thing that's possible. But um what I'm hearing is that a of all the people that are going to try to attempt something like this, like you're better suited than like 100% of them.

[00:09:32]>> I would agree.

[00:09:34]>> And you also already have like one of the hardest parts, which is the urchins.

[00:09:38]>> Yeah.

[00:09:39]>> The the the cleaning of the recently settled coral, if you can.

[00:09:43]>> That's why half That's why half of them spawn urchins.

[00:09:47]>> Yeah. and not and that's also why a lot of them that do this this stuff get derailed get totally derailed because they don't have access to the urchins >> something goes wrong in their urchin culture they can't get the baby urchin so they just like shove the entire coral breeding program because of it >> because the alternative is like your hand scrubbing under a microscope forever >> maybe sounds easier >> okay so so next phase is going going to be Than's coral spawning. I like it.

[00:10:20]>> Yeah, I think that if I was to try something like that, it would be for like large polip stonies, though. I wouldn't even try across.

[00:10:27]>> Have you had any natural spawning happen in any of your tanks?

[00:10:31]>> Sure. Yeah. Um uh like early on was like things like posapora.

[00:10:38]>> So, you know, how they just kind of show up everywhere.

[00:10:41]>> Yeah. But more recently, we've gotten um like hammers, torches, and surprisingly no frog spawn, I don't think. But hammers and torches have spawned.

[00:10:54]>> And some of the hammers, I mean, they're like full on hundred head colonies at this point.

[00:11:00]>> That's That's cool.

[00:11:01]>> It's like in an entire rock is covered in hammers and uh like all different, you know, colors. And I have to tell people like we didn't plant a single one of those. Like all of that came from spawning.

[00:11:13]>> That's cool.

[00:11:13]>> So that's very cool. Uh I think though that the the reason why we aren't getting more of that is um our radons are starting to get a little bit long in the tooth. And because of that, it only takes like one or something like that to have a goofy setting that you kind of can't fix. and it transmits that goofy setting to all the other ones. So, my moonlight is like goofed up on literally like 200 radons. And I'm I'm assuming that only like one or two of them are actually bad.

[00:11:49]>> Interesting.

[00:11:50]>> You can't just like reync everything.

[00:11:52]No, >> it kind of does like like the a couple of them are constantly like troublemakers.

[00:11:57]>> I have five, not 200, so I don't have to scale. Um >> Oh, that's interesting. So, with with the hammers and torches, did you do anything special to get them to spawn or just happened?

[00:12:09]>> Well, specifically, we turned on the moonlight um setting and that was like doing like really really cool stuff and sure enough, like we initially did it to try to spawn >> uh trocus snails >> just in our tanks.

[00:12:24]>> And the trocuses never really bred for us. Um but the hammers and torches did.

[00:12:30]>> Yeah. And then they stopped once the lighting got a little bit goofy. Like we have moonlight, but it looks just like a white channels on at 100% at night.

[00:12:40]>> Oh, that's too bright.

[00:12:42]>> Probably. And it's it's like that every night. I can't turn that off.

[00:12:45]>> Weird.

[00:12:46]>> Yeah, it's bad.

[00:12:48]>> So, who knows? Like maybe I'll try something else.

[00:12:53]>> Yeah. I don't know. I just retweak and reync the schedule and hope for the best. But >> yeah, because we've tried all kinds of stuff like um you so you're you're probably familiar with Patrick at Reef Wholesale, right?

[00:13:05]>> Yeah.

[00:13:06]>> So I think for a long time he was like the Canadian distributor for Ecotech, including like repairs.

[00:13:12]>> Yeah.

[00:13:13]>> So he has like the laundry list of like tips and tricks to repair these things.

[00:13:18]And you know, I went down all that that whole rabbit hole and the these things just might have a bad board at this point. And some of them, you know, it's they're they're in a greenhouse. They're going to be like more susceptible to a lot of like wear and tear. And when one goes bad, it starts to communicate its nonsense wirelessly.

[00:13:37]>> Ah, yeah. That's tricky. Yes. I know. On that note, I know Patrick has had some um torches and stuff spawn on his because I remember you saying like, "Oh, these are the ones that spawned in culture." Just like that's pretty cool.

[00:13:48]Yeah, it it's really it's really well rewarding, especially with torches because it's like that's a fairly high high value coral, too.

[00:13:55]>> Yeah. Okay. So, the question >> corora that nobody cares about.

[00:13:58]>> Yeah. Just kind of bud themselves off.

[00:14:01]Um, okay. Question in the chat. What is the economic viability of coral spawning? Do you get enough out to make it like a viable project in a sense?

[00:14:10]>> Um, so it depends on what you're growing, I suppose, right? Like I think that the folks that are doing acros, they're kind of swimming against the current. Like acroppora is one of the the best documented things. So that's kind of like where people start. But I think that that as a product is not going to be amazing only because like people propagate atros.

[00:14:36]>> They're easy to do it too, right?

[00:14:38]>> To do what?

[00:14:39]>> Just propagate out, you know, they grow.

[00:14:41]You f it like >> unless you're doing something crazy with them. And even though like you're you're growing some potentially really really cool acros like maybe that's only 10% of like the really cool like triple chimeas and stuff like that.

[00:14:55]>> So you're going to ask a whole lot for those and then theoretically the next person could just like cut that thing in half along like the that melted boundary. Right?

[00:15:07]>> So I would want to work with stuff that you really can't propagate. So things like sinorita >> um Like I think like skullies and stuff like that too that aren't overly fragable. Like technically you can but they take a bazillion years to heal.

[00:15:21]>> I mean I I fragged a skull like three years ago and those things still look stupid.

[00:15:26]>> That's what I mean.

[00:15:27]>> Yeah.

[00:15:28]>> So >> stuff that's harder to get I think would be like the ones to try and shoot for.

[00:15:35]>> Yeah.

[00:15:36]>> So actually over in Germany is doing >> trachophilia >> and also that's another one I scratched off my list. So, the two that they've done like really well with so far are like two that I would scratch off my list immediately. So, the trache um that they have are in really chilly water.

[00:15:53]Like they have to um so for in Fahrenheit I think that they're all the way down to like 68 degrees, maybe maximum 72 degrees.

[00:16:04]>> Mhm. It's like chilly chilly water and to the point where like I can see the condensation on the outside of the glass. And their traches are gorgeous.

[00:16:14]Like the best I've ever seen. I'm like, "Oh, that's why all of mine die >> too." [laughter] Like, you know, in 79 to 81 degrees, especially in the summertime when it's awful.

[00:16:26]>> Um, and so these are like cold water animals practically. and then to to spawn that maybe they'll be a little bit more resilient to tropical tank temperatures, but I'm not really feeling it.

[00:16:40]>> Yeah, >> I have a choice like like oh I could just like do the other ones like no one's done the other ones. [laughter] >> Pick the challenging ones. Someone's got to be the front runner, right?

[00:16:50]But I think as far as like commercial viability, uh like a canthopilia and like the really high price scolies and stuff like that could be something.

[00:17:00]>> Uh I know that the folks over at Monsoon Aquatics have started to propagate a whole lot of them. So you can you can buy like right now you can buy quarter inch sized uh like scolies like homophilia >> arilas.

[00:17:16]They are tiny though. Like like pinky nail.

[00:17:19]>> Oh, really? Super tiny.

[00:17:22]>> And I'm sure that they're kind of like keeping like the best ones because all the ones I've ever seen are just red.

[00:17:28]>> They're selling you the drags.

[00:17:31]>> They're all all the rejects ones are like, "Okay, we're selling. We're keeping the the primo ones to respawn one day >> or just like grow bigger and then sell for like more or whatever." But yeah, but that I guess that's that's also the kind of the the cool thing would be being able to spawn some really unique stuff.

[00:17:51]>> Mhm.

[00:17:51]>> And that that would be exciting.

[00:17:53]>> That' be pretty cool. That' be good. I think you're going to do it. I [snorts] give you by the end of the year, [laughter] you'll be starting to set up.

[00:18:02]I need to I mean that that's g that's gonna be a heck of a an investment because I have to make a dark room and I don't have like a lot of square footage to throw at this problem.

[00:18:11]>> You can just pick a wall and put like get some black soundproofing >> moving blanket curtains just box off a room and just do a little double wall so you can go in between it stays dark.

[00:18:22]>> Yeah, you you'd have to do something like that because like light pollution is one of like the big problems that you have to solve when it comes to to coral spawning. Mhm.

[00:18:31]>> have to really really like dial in like your lighting. And the other thing is like I don't want to be doing this stuff at midnight.

[00:18:37]>> Yeah.

[00:18:37]>> So there's ways to um >> change the life cycle the light cycle.

[00:18:42]>> Yeah. So that these things spawn like during the day.

[00:18:46]>> Yeah. You can't walk into that room during the day. It has to be like >> That's fair. The ones I've had spawn successfully. Well, rock flowers. Those they're pretty easy to spawn. And then I've had acro spawn, but I've never had babies from it. Probably because I didn't have both sexes in the tank. I've had them spawn in my tank, which is cool.

[00:19:06]>> Felt like an accomplishment.

[00:19:08]>> Yeah, I I've never Well, I've never seen it, but I've literally only ever seen spawning once, and it was rock flowers.

[00:19:19]>> Yeah.

[00:19:20]>> And it's only because I had friends over that wanted to see the tanks at night.

[00:19:23]I'm like, why do you want to go see the tanks at night? [laughter] Because I'm I after 4:30 I'm not around.

[00:19:30]So no one's around.

[00:19:31]>> So it could be happening. You just don't even know about it.

[00:19:33]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:19:35]>> There could be tons of spawn. It's like why is my nitrates always so high? It's like maybe the corals are spawning all the time and rotting. [laughter] >> I came home one time it was probably 9:00 at night or something and I was like what the heck's all over my tank? I was like did you feed the tank to my wife? And she's like no. And there was just like thousands of little eggs in there. And I finally found it was my Miagi Tort was releasing. I got some macro shots of it releasing it. It was cool.

[00:19:59]>> Yeah, I think I saw the video of when that happened. Yeah, I' I've never seen anything like that happen for us.

[00:20:04]>> Yeah, it was pretty cool.

[00:20:06]>> For for acros especially, ours kind of go in the opposite direction. We're always like falling victim to something rusting in the tank. So most I don't not most I'd say about like a quarter of the year >> my SPS tanks have to be rebounding from some like heavy metal poisoning issue.

[00:20:26]It's it always seems to be like just as soon as like things start to look good.

[00:20:30]I start to notice like one of them kind of looks gray and silvery and I'm like I know where this is going.

[00:20:36]>> Yeah.

[00:20:37]>> Some piece of junk like hobbyist grade pump is probably melting down.

[00:20:43]Yeah, that sucks.

[00:20:44]>> Somewhere. [laughter] >> Yeah. And when you have so many too, it's probably hard to keep up or catch them all.

[00:20:52]>> Well, funny you mentioned that. They are becoming less in number >> as I kind of transitioned to more of like the professional stuff. So like the professional stuff will replace like three other power heads or something.

[00:21:06]And then so like like the number of devices is going way up in price but way down in quantity. Yeah.

[00:21:13]>> So it is easier to service and also I'm like fairly confident that they're not going to be rusting.

[00:21:19]>> Yeah.

[00:21:22]>> Yeah. So what's what brands? What are you going for? What's what's the fancy grade?

[00:21:29]>> So the the stuff that is like really big that that moves a ton of water, it's all going to be a biz.

[00:21:34]>> Yeah. Um, speaking of uh, Reef Retreat, met with Alex there. That was a that was a good time. Um, but there's like some smaller aquariums. You can't put anything a biz on a smaller tank.

[00:21:50][laughter] >> Yeah, >> that's like s it's not even super overkill. It's like it's the wrong tool for the job. It's way too much. Like the the Abyss power heads really shouldn't be on anything less than 10 feet long.

[00:22:02]>> No, they're big minimum. I've never personally used one, but yeah, they're not they're not small by any stretch.

[00:22:08]>> And they and you can't put them up to 100% in a 10-ft tank.

[00:22:11]>> Really?

[00:22:12]>> That's not That's unwise. Let's just say >> crazy.

[00:22:16]>> It'll it'll knock over your rock work.

[00:22:18]They're so strong.

[00:22:20]>> So, how deep are your coral systems though? Are they like 16 or what's the depth on them?

[00:22:25]>> Ballpark. Yeah, I would say. I [laughter] so I think I kind of goofed up on some of the custom tanks when I originally designed them because like when you when you send the plans off to um like a a fabricator and you want it to be let's say 15 inches deep, they're going to make a tank that is 15 inches from like the absolute bottom to the top of the Eurobrace. But on these big tanks are threequarters of an inch thick.

[00:22:52]So, the bottom glass plus the top eurobrace, that's an inch and a half.

[00:22:57]So, your 15-inch tank is now 135 if it was completely full. And it's not. It'll be like at least an inch down from the top of the Eurobrace.

[00:23:09]>> So, now you're talking like 12 in, >> which is why I'm like, how the heck could you put one of those big power heads in there?

[00:23:16]>> Yeah. And so for for the 12 for for the shallowest tanks, you kind of can't No, you can you can, but it has to be like specialized.

[00:23:25]>> So I've s I've seen um video of like this tank in Germany that that has one and they basically make like this tunnel at the very bottom that goes all the way down like the length of the tank. And this tank is 30 feet long >> and it basically makes this like super strong like tunnel current underneath like like this um tunnel.

[00:23:49]>> Yeah.

[00:23:50]>> And and the the water loops all the way back across like you once it hits the other wall and shoots back along the glass.

[00:23:58]>> Just for reference for people, I just quickly looked and this is the smallest of his one which is probably I'm assuming still not tiny.

[00:24:05]No, that's um it's this big.

[00:24:08]>> Yeah. And that's the smallest one.

[00:24:11][laughter] >> Huge. So the other ones like are for like 20,000galon aquariums and up.

[00:24:16]>> Yeah. They're like ridiculously big.

[00:24:18]>> Yeah. Like the biggest one um I think Joe Wulo has it on his 20,000galon tank.

[00:24:25]>> Yeah.

[00:24:26]>> And it's arguably too big for that. Like that's insane. But but Joe Wulo's tank is insane. Like I I haven't been I haven't seen it in person, >> but I know how big corals are.

[00:24:38]>> Yeah, >> those corals are bigger than people.

[00:24:41]>> So like that that you know cuts down on flow tremendously. Um so yeah, he he probably is putting that thing to good use.

[00:24:48]>> Yeah, that's fair.

[00:24:50]>> I think so.

[00:24:52]So is it worth it in your facility? I've never used the biz because they're too fancy for me, but they do look cool.

[00:24:59]Yeah, I always say when when people are like considering a biz, there's like two customers where it makes a lot of sense.

[00:25:05]One is a really high-end tank that has like insanely big investment into all the stuff that's already in there. So, yeah, it's a it's an expensive return pump. Let's say like an AI A400 is very expensive. Three to $4,000 something in. They didn't used to be, [laughter] but you know, whatever. They're very expensive. They were never cheap, but they're crazy expensive now.

[00:25:30]>> Yeah.

[00:25:30]>> Um but if you have like $30,000 in coral and $30,000 in fish and you're kind of like hoping that your Mickey Mouse hobbyist grade return pump doesn't fail one day.

[00:25:45]>> Yep.

[00:25:46]>> I mean, that's a choice.

[00:25:47]>> I see the logic.

[00:25:49]>> Yeah. So, that's one that's one use case, right? like if if you have an insane livestock investment like oh you know all my mast angels died when all that stuff right the other option or the other use case that I think makes a lot of sense is if you're talking about like larger facilities where like the the quality scales as you get more of these things um and so like the the the fact that you have to worry less and maintain less >> uh that starts to go a really long way so you're kind of you're kind trading um human capital for equipment capital.

[00:26:25]>> Yeah, fair.

[00:26:27]>> And it's not just human capital in terms of like actually doing the work. It's just the attention to it. Like um otherwise like you would you'd really have stuff breaking every single day because of just the number of regular devices that you have.

[00:26:44]>> Yeah. No, that's fair fair logic. Okay.

[00:26:48]Question in the chat. Hydros or Apex in 2026. Do you use aquarium controllers at all time?

[00:26:53]>> No, >> I don't think you did.

[00:26:55]>> But I think I'm gonna have to at some point if I wanted to do like the really detailed moon phase stuff.

[00:27:02]>> Yes, you probably you can do it without or with.

[00:27:06]>> Yeah, you probably could.

[00:27:07]>> If you just want a standard schedule, you can do it directly on the radons with moons. But if you want it shifting throughout the year, then Apex makes a lot easier.

[00:27:15]>> Yeah. Um I I know that like the GNC light out of Italy, >> they have like a really robust moon control.

[00:27:23]>> Yeah.

[00:27:24]>> Um because I think that that light is kind of made more professionally. Um like they like research labs might use a GNC. Um a Philips Coral Care uh apparently is a very wellineered light for stuff that that makes it very easy to control.

[00:27:40]>> Um I nobody uses Philips Coral Care. I have >> Right. Exactly. It's not pushed, but like turns out Phillips is a really good company. They made a really good >> They make a lot of stuff. Yeah.

[00:27:53]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, Netherlands, right?

[00:27:56]>> Um, so I met somebody at Reef to Treat that was making a like a controller software basically like I think he just vibe coded this thing in Claude.

[00:28:07]>> Yeah.

[00:28:07]>> That's incredibly incredibly robust.

[00:28:10]Which one?

[00:28:11]>> And it can work with uh any light that can accept like 0 to 10 volt control.

[00:28:17]>> Yes.

[00:28:17]>> And his thing that he tests on is a Philips Coral Care because of how easy it is to do that.

[00:28:23]>> Mhm.

[00:28:24]>> So I'm like, "Oh, maybe my my Philips Coral Cares, you know, have a might have a future." [laughter] >> They can just be your moonlights in the middle of each tank.

[00:28:35]>> Oh, that's crazy. So was there any like other really interesting things that people were up to from the event or like like conversation rabbit holes that you're like >> for sure.

[00:28:43]>> Yeah, >> for sure. So I had to learn like from scratch about polymerase chain reaction PCR.

[00:28:51]The last time I did PCR was back in college. It's not a new technology, >> but it's advanced significantly in like the last 20some years. Um, so basically what it is is it's a DNA test for your tank. And um, two different people, one of them was a speaker and one of them was a hobbyist. Uh, the hobbyist actually lives in Canada, Calgary, I think.

[00:29:18]>> And, um, yeah, they're using it to test for pests. So or or the DNA signature of a past meaning at one time >> like >> it was there and it maybe maybe it's not there now but it was >> so the um one the speaker I forget her name but she works for like the New England Aquarium and she's using it to do mainly fish pathogens but like the these DNA tests can can scan for like ick and velvet and all that stuff. So like when you do these like you know professional um like quarantine protocols and treatments and everything like that you can verify like for a fact that there is no ick >> period >> when once you're done or you can like you can set up these gates like you know what fish comes in definitely has it definitely has this this this and this >> go through like several rounds of like a whatever treatments and you can test it again >> you know put it through like a little lagging phase test it again then it goes into your tank you know that sort of that I thought was very cool. The hobbyist was using it specifically to test for acro eating flatworms >> and that was possible as of literally this year because the way that you are able to test for these DNAs DNA sequences is you kind of have to correctly isolate something like a DNA sequence that can reliably you know marker you know one of these pathogens these uh these pests. So the it's basically like you need the recipe. Once you have the recipe, you can test for it.

[00:31:01]>> Yeah.

[00:31:02]>> Uh or like a barcode. Let's call it a barcode.

[00:31:04]>> Yeah. You need to know what you're looking for. There's data, but you're like, what does the sequence mean? Who knows, right? And once you identify, you could find it within the samples.

[00:31:12]>> Yep. So the barcode for acro eating flatworms was was discovered in 2026.

[00:31:17]>> Oh, that's pretty cool. Didn't know about that one.

[00:31:20]>> Yeah. Now, you might be thinking, are you going to get one of these machines?

[00:31:26]Um, the machine that you would need, they start at 20,000 for the good enough ones and up to a 100,000 plus for the really good ones.

[00:31:39]A professional outfit would have no issue spending that kind of money. Like, if it re if it really came down to it, like the Dion Marine Life probably already has one, that sort of thing, right? Um, but even if I had the money, let's just say I just I just had it like that, right?

[00:31:55]>> Yeah.

[00:31:56]>> Um, you need like an actual laboratory >> because machines are so sensitive.

[00:32:03]>> They're going to pick up the acro eating flatworms on you because you put your hands into the into a tank, >> you're siphoning that that that that DNA is on you now.

[00:32:15]And just by you walking into that room, it's going to pick up accurating flatworms on every single sample.

[00:32:21]>> So you need like clean room procedure.

[00:32:24]It's you're in you're now in the in the realm of real real deal [laughter] >> like laboratory technique, >> not you know whatever you can fit on your bench. [snorts] >> [laughter] >> There was one thing I still thought was bizarre when um I did an aquabonics test like years ago and one of the DNA that was picked up was like firebelly toad or something like that in my tank. I was like what? I don't own any of those.

[00:32:51]Like did it come from like something I bought at the pet store one time like >> a leaf or something.

[00:32:56]>> Yeah. Bizarre. It was like one of the weirdest things to see in my tank DNA.

[00:33:01]>> Yeah. But that that's how that that's how that goes. It's like I got some I got some like Amazon toad that I don't own DNA into my saltwater aquarium.

[00:33:11]>> So crazy.

[00:33:12]>> Like what other false positives are you telling me? Oh, I have vibrio. Oh, cool.

[00:33:16]>> Do I >> do I really?

[00:33:18]>> Everyone, how's it?

[00:33:21]That's [snorts] crazy though. Like it how stuff could transfer potentially into your tank.

[00:33:26]>> Yeah. Uh I'm learning that uh like slight change of subject, but I'm learning that with rotor first. Mhm.

[00:33:33]>> Um, so like rotifers are like the bane of phytolanton growers existence because they can get onto anything and get transferred very very easily. And so in one of um the the times that I was recording the like the little baby urchins and settling tanks, sure enough, I'm like watching all these like rotifers in that tank and that that tank is 5t away from my phto station. So, I'm like, it is just a matter of time before like these these uh these rotifers contaminate my stuff and just eat them all dead. [laughter] >> It's crazy, eh?

[00:34:12]>> Yeah.

[00:34:14]>> Yeah. I mean, not that they can jump through the air. It's just like, was there a drop of water on something that had one in it?

[00:34:21]>> They can go through the air. Yeah. Like so they can uh they can especially like the eggs and stuff >> can absolutely uh like basically be in like the humidity when when you open a container and get on your clothes and then you just being like close to your tanks will will transmit them.

[00:34:38]>> That's crazy. When we talk about biocurity like you don't realize how easy that could happen.

[00:34:44]>> There's okay in this entire industry there's zero biocurity. Oh, I would agree.

[00:34:52]>> Like not even at the hobbyist level. I'm talking about professional like places.

[00:34:58]They there there's places that try a lot harder than others.

[00:35:02]>> You would need like your painters suit that you take off to go from room to room. Like it'd be like ridiculous to properly do it.

[00:35:08]>> You need to go down like hallways where like they're they're blowing uh >> Yeah. downdrafting in your room so everything gets sucked to the floor.

[00:35:15]>> Yeah.

[00:35:16]>> Oh, that's crazy. Like Dy Marine Life, they kind of like have at least have you go through like stations where you have to like, you know, like wash your hands and and and um soak your feet in >> antiseptic and all that stuff. And they spray down the entire like the ceilings and everything like with with uh with antiseptic.

[00:35:36]>> Crazy.

[00:35:37]>> But they have aasia like [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:35:41]>> You can't you can't stop some of these things. So, like I don't know when whenever people especially like you know like hobby hobby coral sellers and stuff like that talk about zero pest systems and stuff I'm like >> li I've se I've seen things >> I [snorts] saw one aptasia in my tank and I was like that's it after like a week of this spine I finally have aasagased it. I'm like there's probably more. Uh >> yeah probably >> got to get ahead of it.

[00:36:10]>> There's so much there. The pests are so much better at this than than people are at eliminating it.

[00:36:17]>> But who knows? Now that we have DNA testing, if you want to spend a couple hundred grand to try to keep, you know, flatworms out of your system or whatever, you can try.

[00:36:26]>> Sounds expensive.

[00:36:28]>> Um, or you can just deal with it.

[00:36:31]>> Yeah, that's fair. Another question for you in the chat. Have you ever looked at doing ICP testing at Title Gardens? Get yourself an ICP machine.

[00:36:38]>> Oh, oh, no, no. Same problem. Uh, same problem. So, it is a a very expensive machine, like 60 grand, whatever.

[00:36:47]>> Um, the maintenance on that machine is insane. Like, it's insanely expensive.

[00:36:54]Um, and on top of that, it it too is one of those things where like if you ate a ate a hot dog and then you walk into that room, you're going to test high in like silicates and stuff or whatever the hell was preserving that hot dog. Like it's it is incredibly sensitive machinery. So you kind of need had to have like some degree of like skilled technicians to operate these things.

[00:37:16]>> Um like so like uh Claude at Fawnarin.

[00:37:21]>> Yeah.

[00:37:21]>> He is like an ICP junkie now. Like I think he probably has like like five or six machines something like that.

[00:37:28]>> Yeah. It's it's I mean he he has like a serious analytics operation going on there. And yeah, it it's it is an entire different universe to like mess with that. So he's been working on that for my guess 15 years.

[00:37:44]>> And it's it's still like the bane of many people's existences, I'm sure, to actually work with those machines.

[00:37:52]>> Yeah. No, that's fair. Okay, another one for you. Are you considering selling phytolanton?

[00:37:57]>> We sell it right now.

[00:38:00]>> There you go.

[00:38:01]>> Yep. Um, so we we're currently only offering um Ta isocrisis and Rodamonus because we have not finalized our label for Ktoserus or Koseras.

[00:38:14]>> What's What's the one you had to especially get in because you couldn't find it.

[00:38:17]>> Oh. Oh, yeah. Nitsia. That's the other one.

[00:38:19]>> I never heard of that one. So, okay.

[00:38:21]>> No one's ever heard of it. It's The only people that would have ever possibly heard of it are people that are specifically trying to grow sea urchins.

[00:38:32]It is it is a benthic um datom, meaning that it only will really grow on surfaces. It doesn't swim.

[00:38:41]>> So, um yeah, I had to get this sample and I swear it was like it was like the size of like a thumbnail sample for $200 and I have to scale this up. So, like >> Yeah. And so, I I did check it. It's like, "Yep, it's it's in there, I think."

[00:38:58]And uh so but then like once you get it into your actual cultures, it's like maybe the culture is just too big and it just died.

[00:39:05]I don't know. So I I haven't really checked it. It turns out that my my urchins were fine without this $200 pure inoculent.

[00:39:15]>> Yeah. So that's the other thing you guys like when people need to like set the I'm not I'm already making excuses for my phytolanin. Um, you have to set your expectations as far as like the purity of these things. Like I think that my my TI is roto motors are basically clean.

[00:39:32]My Koseras or Ktocrus that came in, it came in with like some other things swimming around in it. Um, but this is kind of what you expect for a $20 bottle of this stuff. Like you're buying lettuce. You're not buying only DNA cell cultured lettuce.

[00:39:50]>> Yep. You know, like if you wanted that, you're buying it from the wrong people if the price tag was $20.

[00:39:57]>> Yeah, that's fair.

[00:39:59]>> You need to go to the University of Texas and buy it from a lab.

[00:40:03]>> Ah, it's crazy. Okay, Craig, I tried culturing rodamonus lens and it didn't store well in the fridge. Does yours store? Does it keep >> um No. Well, so like Rodamonus is delicate.

[00:40:17]>> Yeah.

[00:40:18]>> Period. It's delicate. So, um, if you if you're going to put it in the fridge, you better use it all up within about a week.

[00:40:25]>> Very really delicate. But, you know, here's the other thing, though, and this is I think that people have and and we have instructions to, you know, to to refrigerate this stuff, but that's really not the best way to keep this stuff. The absolute best way to keep it is just to put it in an airline, bubble it gently with a little bit of light, and that will keep way longer. like way way longer because all this thing needs to do is be able to out compete bacteria.

[00:40:53]>> And like a solid culture that you get from any bottle, >> just give it some air, give it some light.

[00:41:01]>> It's probably good for like >> it it'll probably crash because it grew too much.

[00:41:06]>> Yeah, that's true.

[00:41:07]>> It'll it'll be your other problem, right? So, yeah, just feed it off. Feed it off. Feed it off. Top it up with some salt water. Um, you know, eventually it'll run out of like fertilizer, but you know, you can also buy F2 fertilizer to keep it going.

[00:41:20]>> Put in a mill of each, call it a day.

[00:41:22]Yeah.

[00:41:22]>> Yeah. Like culture your own. [laughter] >> It's pretty easy to culture, >> especially once it's started, you know, >> but uh but I I totally understand how people also just want to have it conveniently in a fridge. I I would treat it like produce, like after like a week or two, I wouldn't really expect that piece of lettuce to be all that great. Mhm. I don't know. That's fair.

[00:41:44]So, there's a couple other questions asking when the urchins are ready and if they're going to be for sale. So, which which we're going to get to in this answer, but I'm going to guess to you probably once you got the babies. I know you're ideally want the babies, so they're probably going to have a certain useful life. And at one point, you're going to be like, "Okay, they're getting too big. Time to clear them out."

[00:42:03]>> I think I might have to clear them out earlier anyway.

[00:42:06]>> So, you have so many.

[00:42:08]>> Yeah. I mean, I've never owned a thousand urchins my whole life put together, >> right?

[00:42:14]>> So, I have a 12 to 15,000gallon coral farm. Okay. I don't know if I've ever owned 200 urchins in my whole life. So, the idea that you're going to unleash like a thousand urchins and not have them just start starving because like, by the way, >> fair. I mean, not that Tidal Gardens is like pristine or anything like that, but it's more pristine than a lot of places, >> meaning there might not be all that much food for a gigantic horde of of virgins, uh, I I'm I'm going to fully expect that like once these things get to be about like threequarters of an inch, >> um, I'm going to like straight up run out of algae. Like they're gonna eliminate everything. So, at at threequarters of an inch, I want to like sell off as many as I possibly can.

[00:43:05]>> Yep.

[00:43:06]>> And luckily I I've got like a lot of people that want to buy them. [laughter] >> Spend $100 on frags and get it for free.

[00:43:14]>> Yeah. I mean there's like a I mean there's like bigger big institutions that are like we'll buy every single one you can sell us sort of thing. I'm like yeah >> that's a good that's a good problem to have. I might just do that if I need.

[00:43:26]>> That is a good problem.

[00:43:27]>> Yeah.

[00:43:27]>> Well if all those fails that's a solid solution.

[00:43:31]>> Yes. But I do plan to sell them. Um >> I think that in time as far as especially if I can scale it up and get better at it like the price will go down. But right now people are paying for my initial investment plus six months of labor. [laughter] >> Yeah. Fair.

[00:43:46]>> My labor.

[00:43:48]>> How how much is do you plan on selling them for?

[00:43:51]>> Uh like right now I think we're selling um urchins for like 35 or 40 or something like that. I forget.

[00:43:56]>> Yeah. Nice.

[00:43:58]>> Yeah. I mean like obviously like again if we get better >> Yep.

[00:44:04]>> we'll have more >> the easability of culturing of scale.

[00:44:10][laughter] >> Yeah. Like like so this was definitely just a pilot project. I just wanted to see and and what we'll see if I can do it again. Maybe I just got lucky.

[00:44:20]>> You're gonna be all in because you're going to start trying to spawn corals and you're going to need more baby urgents. So >> yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know, people there there's there's coral spawners that want to buy the babyest or of baby urchins, like barely visible. I don't even know how to pack that.

[00:44:35]>> I mean, you could probably throw hundreds in a bag.

[00:44:38]>> Well, it's the it's the handling of them. Like, how do I get like without killing the baby? They're so delicate.

[00:44:47]>> Yeah.

[00:44:48]>> Yeah.

[00:44:49]>> I'm sure there's ways.

[00:44:51]>> Was there any other good like side conversation rabbit holes?

[00:44:55]Um um I mean like so here here's the thing that I really appreciated about that event is that it so it's a retreat.

[00:45:06]Okay. You're you're staying in a dorm room at a university and everybody's on campus kind of all like stuck together.

[00:45:15]>> Yep. And there's so many people that are either industry pros >> or hardcore geeks. And I say that in like the most flattering way possible. So the level of geek that you're talking to, it's high.

[00:45:32]>> It's very high. And so you know, you were you were in were interested in microscopy, right?

[00:45:40]>> There were multiple people there that did that as a day job. like that is their profession and so like the level of conversation that you can have about microscopy super high level super high level and I got into it with them you know >> um so and that kind of goes with like a lot of different things like whatever topic that you really wanted to delve into I mean one of the one of the the short speakers right was um Alex Guara I don't know how to pronounce his last name. Alex G. He lives in Chicago area.

[00:46:16]>> Okay. Oh, I know Alex G. Yeah.

[00:46:17]>> Yeah. And Yeah. Because he uh he goes to Reef Palooa. Um but he like basically handbuilt I think a 17,000galon aquarium in his basement.

[00:46:27]>> Yeah. Huge.

[00:46:28]>> And so he has all kinds of like engineering ideas, right? And he's like diying his own flow pumps because >> Oh, yeah. He makes everything. Back in like my early days of live streaming, he was always showing off his builds. He's always building cool stuff, >> right? And then so he like um went online and was 3D printing like propeller blades to and then mounting them onto um uh gbow pumps and he brought those over and then you could like stick it into the wet lab and and show it off. And you know what, Alex from Abby is right there. And so like those two guys start to get into like some really highlevel discussions about like propeller shape and flow dynamics and flow design and like so like everywhere you turn there are these types of conversations like I was um you know I started to have some non-photosynthetic stuff that I'm filter feeding >> because I have like all of my excess phytolankton so I'm like filter so I'm feeding it off to some dendronia and some flame scalps, right?

[00:47:32]>> Yeah. So, I wa wander into a conversation and the guy I'm speaking to is Joe Wulo who has like a lot of experience with like non synthetics and um a guy that's or two guys from like Georgia aquarium and we get into this like extremely detailed conversation about like non-photosynthetic filter feeders and it's not just like like many hobbyists have tried right I'm just a hobbyist quote quote unquote hobbyist that has tried this. But it's different also at the professional public aquarium realm too, especially when it's not just like a Petco level um public aquarium.

[00:48:18]It that's the Georgia aquarium.

[00:48:21]>> They do stuff really well. If you've never been, it's like one of the better institutions in the world. So, it was it was very cool to like again, everywhere you turn, there's always going to be a conversation that's going to like knock your socks off.

[00:48:35]>> No, that's pretty cool. I think I'd actually really enjoy that because I love the geeking out side of it. It's always the best part of going to events.

[00:48:41]>> It is the It was the ultimate geekfest, I think.

[00:48:45]>> Yeah.

[00:48:47]>> Yeah. Just just to be around people that are like that that are that into it or that are doing it as a literal profession makes a difference.

[00:48:54]half the reason I do live streams so I can geek out over the stuff, you know?

[00:48:57]It's a good excuse.

[00:48:59]>> Yeah. And that particular university, they had a they had like a cool wet lab.

[00:49:03]Like they were um they were breeding >> all kinds of fish like you know those the little red and white yasha assa goies.

[00:49:13]>> Yep. With the little big spiky fins.

[00:49:16]>> Yeah. They had like 2,000 of those.

[00:49:18]>> Oh, really? Oh, crazy.

[00:49:20]>> Thousands. Like, so I'm just making up a number 2,00. But it was they might have had like 10 tanks. 10 like giant tanks full of them.

[00:49:32]>> Huh. That's kind of cool actually.

[00:49:33]>> At every growth stage. Like they had so many of those things.

[00:49:37]>> Those are cool guys. I've had um I've tried them a couple times. They eventually just disappear. I don't know if it's whatever happens, but >> yeah, they they had all kinds of clown fish. They they were breeding cleaner rasses. H >> like the the the fish that people struggle just to keep alive, they're breeding them.

[00:49:56]>> That's really cool.

[00:49:57]>> Yeah. And it's also funny like how when you talk to the talk to like the aquaculture folks um so like one of the guys from Biota was there >> and obviously like the the people running the wet lab and everything but like the products are all different like from what you talk about on the hobby side.

[00:50:16]>> Yeah. So >> like what kind of stuff would they be using comparison like >> special unique >> is they don't so they don't use like um you know because I I I think of like sustainable aquatics pellets. I think of like um reef nutrition TDO and stuff.

[00:50:33]>> Yeah. But they're they work with um with these aquaculture feed suppliers >> that are are specifically making stuff like for aquaculture and not to just sell for like you know a home aquarium.

[00:50:49]>> Interesting.

[00:50:50]>> So like the entire like product vocabulary changes.

[00:50:54]>> I've never even heard of these companies before somewhere.

[00:50:56]>> Yeah, no kidding.

[00:50:59]I wonder if there's actually a difference or they're just market to different industries.

[00:51:03]>> Possibly. Possibly a lot of the stuff could be the same. But I think there's always something to be said for products that have to work.

[00:51:11]>> Yeah.

[00:51:11]>> Like >> uh if you're talking about buying stuff in tons to feed your shrimp aquaculture or else you go under.

[00:51:22]>> Yeah.

[00:51:22]>> That food has to work. And >> that's a fair point.

[00:51:26]>> Yeah. Whereas, like, you know, if your if your clown fish dies, you know, no, nobody really cares. You're on you're just on your own. But if that salmon crop failed, there's going to be people people that care.

[00:51:40]>> Fair.

[00:51:42]Yeah, fair enough.

[00:51:45]Complete random side question. Are you still dabbling with ozone?

[00:51:49]>> Not dabbling with it. We use it.

[00:51:51]>> Okay. Use it. Have you ever replaced the corona discharge inside of it? I think we have once or twice.

[00:51:57]>> Okay.

[00:51:58]>> I should probably do that because I'm I'm fairly certain one of ours is leaking ozone and I don't know where it's leaking it. We check the lines. It It could just be the chron discharge. We have like the safety tester. It says it's safe. I can absolutely smell it 5t away. [laughter] So, I'm like >> it might be safe, but it might also be here.

[00:52:18]>> My my or P in my newer tank is like much lower than my older tank was. I haven't adjusted anything on the ozone. So, I was like, "Huh, I wonder if it just needs replacing." And I Googled it last night and in their mind they're like, "Oh, yeah. Replace yearly." I was like, "Huh?" I've never replaced mine.

[00:52:32]>> You can clean it out yourself, though.

[00:52:34]>> I've cleaned it, but I just wasn't I was just curious if I've actually like swapp.

[00:52:39]But >> yeah, I've actually replaced it rather than cleaned it once before.

[00:52:44]>> I should probably just >> I should probably just replace it. Um the other thing the other thing is um how much do you trust your OP because >> I replaced the probe recently because again I didn't trust it. I was like oh is my probe just sold so I replaced it and like it boost it a little bit but >> like I have brand new probes like straight out of the wrapper just give me nonsense.

[00:53:08]>> Really?

[00:53:09]>> Yeah. [clears throat] Like it could like they all fluctuate from 0 to 900.

[00:53:13]>> Oh yeah that's bad. Mine was like 20 to 50 points difference when I replaced it.

[00:53:19]>> Yeah. So, I don't trust ORP. And also, ORP is like looking at like the shadow of ozone. It's not testing ozone directly.

[00:53:25]>> Yeah. It's like a trend.

[00:53:27]>> So, you Well, it's not even a trend.

[00:53:29]It's like it's it's testing something that ozone had an effect on presumably. So, it's entirely possible that your tanks could be flooded with actual ozone and not show up on an OP. Very well.

[00:53:46]>> Interesting.

[00:53:46]>> Like you're you're testing like one thing removed from the thing.

[00:53:51]>> Fair point.

[00:53:52]>> It's a bad measuring device. [laughter] Like it's like the the phone game with the cups. It's like it's you might get some lost in translation nonsense.

[00:54:03]>> Interesting.

[00:54:05]>> Fair enough.

[00:54:06]I I move put mine up a smidge more and I've left it on just for the last 24 hours to see how much of an impact it's had and I feel like it's not as much as it should be.

[00:54:16]>> Oh, that it didn't have an impact.

[00:54:18]>> No, it does, but it's like minimal considering. But again, >> but that's a number on a probe.

[00:54:24]>> Yeah.

[00:54:25]>> Okay. Well, what are you trying to accomplish? I mean, you can kind of just look and tell by looking at your tank that did it work.

[00:54:31]>> It's not I don't feel like it's clear enough. Like, I feel like it used to have a much higher impact.

[00:54:35]Okay. I mean, it's scary. You can turn it up a little bit.

[00:54:39]>> I turned it up one point. This is only level three. I turned to level four last night or the night before, whatever it was.

[00:54:44]>> Okay. So, on my systems, I think we're at four for >> Okay.

[00:54:49]>> like for 3,000 gallons >> on the Poseidon 200 or which one using?

[00:54:53]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:54:55]>> So, which makes me think maybe it's time to replace the Corona discharge inside cuz their manual when I looked it up said they they're like, "Oh, yeah. Every year replace them." Like, I'm pretty sure I've had this for a few years now.

[00:55:04]So, it's probably do. It's probably why >> it could it could just be gked. Um, and also like the humidity plays a big part in it. Like our dehumidifiers that go that feed it, I'm sure are trash at this point.

[00:55:16]>> Did you buy the overly priced air dryer?

[00:55:18]>> Yeah. And I don't think that they're so I think they're a good idea in theory.

[00:55:25]>> Yeah.

[00:55:26]>> I think it's just the the air flow going through it. It's just it's just not the right capacity.

[00:55:31]>> Okay. So, my I've struggled with the air dryer concept for so long because doing beads in yourself is a pain in the butt because you got to change them too often.

[00:55:39]>> Yeah.

[00:55:39]>> If you buy the dryers, it basically dries them for you, but they're like the price of an oven [laughter] >> for something this big, >> right? But if they worked, that would be fine.

[00:55:50]>> Well, here's >> I'm not sure if they work.

[00:55:52]>> Well, in theory, they work. And >> I don't know if they work. [laughter] >> I have three of them. I don't.

[00:55:59]>> So, they make the ozone more efficient, but I'm like, if I'm only running at 30%. Do I really care if it's not as efficient? Like, I just bump it up a bit. But I don't know. That's always my thought.

[00:56:09]>> Something to be said for that, too. It's like, you know, because if you think about it, one of those things is what 8 8 900 8 $900. You would could theoretically just get nine years of probes and just screw it. I'll just let them get get gked.

[00:56:23]>> Yeah. So, I don't know. I could I always every like four or five months. I look at a dryer and it's like $600 US. I'm like, nah. I buy like a new freaking oven range for that price. I >> Oh. Oh, no. I was thinking about the big one.

[00:56:38]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:56:38]>> Which I think is more.

[00:56:39]>> Yeah. It's like a grand.

[00:56:41]>> It's ridiculous. For a little box with just basically like two toaster heating elements >> wrapped around some silica beads. It's like >> Yes.

[00:56:48]>> Could probably build one actually.

[00:56:50]>> Um I don't know how well they work. I think that like ours have probably failed potentially.

[00:56:59]Well, like I think that they just they don't they don't dry it well enough.

[00:57:04]>> You could put a humidity meter after it really easy and figure it out >> cuz all it is is a chamber of silica beads with basically a heating coil around it to dry them out to get rid of the moisture.

[00:57:17]>> Interesting.

[00:57:17]>> Yeah, I I think it's I think well the the the concept I totally get.

[00:57:21]>> Yeah. I think the scale and the power might not be right.

[00:57:26]>> Could be >> to do the job that it needs to do because it's not an oven. It's like it's not that hot to the touch.

[00:57:35]>> Yeah, that that was just my assumption of what it was. Okay, so Ryan, halfife of ozone is under 30 minutes. Be difficult to achieve dangerous saturation. Fair. Uh build a reef guy. I thought humid air in the coronal discharge creates nitric acid. Yes, you're correct with that. Which corrods it. Maybe it does corrode it. Um, >> no, it doesn't corrode. It makes a gunk.

[00:57:53]>> Okay.

[00:57:54]>> So, it makes a slime and that slime as it accumulates makes it less efficient.

[00:57:59]>> The cleaning is actually really easy.

[00:58:01]I'd literally just take some RO water, force it through it, and then take it in compressed air and then blow it out and then you're done.

[00:58:08]>> So, maybe I should just try cleaning it first. Maybe it's full of junk. Who knows?

[00:58:13]>> We'll see. I don't know. 100 bucks too.

[00:58:15]>> Yeah, [laughter] I'll probably next time I do an order, I'll just replace it because it's probably like four years old by now.

[00:58:20]>> Yeah.

[00:58:20]>> Um but yeah, I don't know. I was just curious oone too if you ever bothered.

[00:58:24]>> We use it there. There's people that that really like Raj from MRC. It's like I under no circumstances would I use that on a home aquarium. It's too danger.

[00:58:34]>> I have it on the tank beside me. I have it on I use it on all my tanks.

[00:58:37]>> I think it's fine. I think it's fine.

[00:58:39]But at the same time, I think that for a small aquarium, it's like you could just do activated carbon. It's really good.

[00:58:45]It's way safe. And >> Or you could do both.

[00:58:49]>> Could do both.

[00:58:50]>> Yeah. For me though, like half of the reason is to like kill like half is water clear and the other half is just kill like the oceany smell.

[00:58:58]>> It'll definitely do that.

[00:59:00]>> That's my main purpose for using it.

[00:59:01]>> Yeah. My tanks don't smell and there's a lot of stuff in there.

[00:59:06]>> Exactly. So, I don't know. I think that's the for me that's the biggest benefits. Like there's stuff like breaking down toxins and the yellowings and stuff, but >> yeah.

[00:59:14]>> Yeah, that that should that should probably be a bigger deal for me.

[00:59:20]I mean, the thing that really like moves the needle for me is I like clear clear water, but the coral alilopathy is like a really big deal. Um, I guess that's another thing that we did talk about a bit. um was so I I I overlook uh like coral aggression towards each other chemically because it's it's it's a thing. It's whatever activated carbon, ozone, water changes, whatever, right?

[00:59:45]>> But in applications where you really need um like like the fringe cases, um it turns out that it's kind of important.

[00:59:57]Like there's a really good chance that the reason why I'm not able to keep certain ganis well is because it's just in a mixed reef >> with other stuff including other ganies.

[01:00:07]Like that's really bad for certain ones.

[01:00:09]Um the the people that are doing coral spawning, the ones that are doing it in um like they're trying to do like three different species in the same tank, that apparently is not a good thing to do.

[01:00:23]So like monoculture is becoming a lot more prevalent. But if you want to, you know, if you want to keep 300 different types of corals or you're going to try to maintain 300 different systems, good luck with that, you know.

[01:00:39]>> Yeah, I have um recently learned that ganis can be not very kind to each other. There is two in my water box that are extremely aggressive where they start to kill off the two that were right beside them. I was like, you know, decided to move those out.

[01:00:56]>> Stinging, right?

[01:00:57]>> Yeah, >> cuz they they're also doing chemical warfare, too.

[01:01:01]>> In general, I've had ganies touch and it's never been an issue. But yeah, apparently a couple of the ones I got, they're super bright, very pretty green, but they are aggressive.

[01:01:08]>> Yeah.

[01:01:09]>> Yep.

[01:01:10]>> Yeah. I I've been trying to do Ghanis well and better. I I'm starting to think that like you know what there is no well and better if they're all together like this in my system.

[01:01:19]>> I mean like people are gonna think I'm crazy because they're going to look at the my Ghani tank and it's fine. It's been you know running well for so long that there's always room for improvement. Unfortunately the improvement might be fewer Ghanis.

[01:01:31]>> Yeah.

[01:01:33]>> So [snorts] I have an idea about making a dragon now. [laughter] Someone in the chat was like, "Oh, I'm waiting for you to like build something and put the STL up." And someone's like, "Oh, toaster ovens are cheap." Cuz I was talking about a toaster. Um, a 3D printed filament dryer would be relatively compact and it can maintain like that 50 60° on a timer and if you had a bunch of silic beads that flowed through in the middle, that might work.

[01:02:01]So, the the one like design feature that the um the unit that I have >> Mhm.

[01:02:08]>> that I like is that it kind of goes on a timer. There's two chambers for the silica beads.

[01:02:15]>> Yep.

[01:02:16]>> And so it'll do like 12 hours on, 12 hours off, 12 hours on, 12. So when it's in its like cooking off mode, it's going to get those beads dry theoretically.

[01:02:28]But you said it's not hot to touch. And you can dry them slow and low, too.

[01:02:35]>> I think that might have been part of the problem. I think it needed to to try a little harder. [laughter] >> Yeah, >> it needed to be a little bit warmer because my worry is that I think that it's like turn into a solid block.

[01:02:48]>> That's fair.

[01:02:50]I think I might be tempted to try and build one super cheap using a filament dryer and I think it would work.

[01:02:57]Just don't set your house on fire.

[01:02:59]That's all.

[01:02:59]>> No, no, no filament dryers are fine because you can dry like 3D printing filaments in it and you can buy them for like 50 bucks. So, I think if I take one of those and just like add on like, you know, a little air inlet outlet, bunch a little cylinder of silica gel in the middle. I think there's potential here.

[01:03:14]This might be a project.

[01:03:17]>> Yep. Just uh just make something warm and dry and you're good.

[01:03:22]>> Basically, all right. Solid potential. I like it. [laughter] Uh, sorry. You were you were about to say something else about some other rabbit hole or conversation or something before we got sidetracked. It's probably gone now. But >> no, I think that we were just talking about like um [clears throat] how ozone and activated carbon and stuff was kind of important because of like coral aggression that people kind of underestimate. Um, and and again, it's it's not the biggest deal in the world.

[01:03:50]Um, because you can just work with it, but there are those fringe cases where you kind of can't or it's just not good enough. Like your your regular like levers of power aren't working out.

[01:04:05]>> Yeah. Well, especially if you're keeping a mixed reef though, right? For because if you have, you know, like soft, there's lots of corals that will release toxins into the water >> and to me ozone is going to break that down. So, it's a benefit.

[01:04:17]>> It'll certainly help. Yeah, because we we do we keep we keep uh certain like leather corals and stuff like that with other stonies. And I'm one million% sure that it is not good for those stonies.

[01:04:28]>> That's high confidence. I like it.

[01:04:31]>> Yeah. But at the same time, it's like I kind of don't care. It's like that that Monty that's sitting next to it that's not that happy is also like three feet long. It's like do I >> Yeah, sure. It's probably fine. I don't think it needs to grow any faster.

[01:04:44]>> Yep.

[01:04:45]Yeah. No, I mean, hey, that's the point.

[01:04:48]When you have a young tank, you want stuff to grow fast. When stuff's like overgrowing, you want to grow slower.

[01:04:52]So, could be an advantage. It's all in perspective, right?

[01:04:55]>> Yeah. I need to do a a building update.

[01:04:58]I haven't really done one in like a really long time, just because I I've been in urchin land for so long.

[01:05:04]>> Yeah.

[01:05:04]>> But one of our tanks, um, which used to be like such a such an afterthought, is looking really cool because it is a big tank. It's one of our biggest tanks.

[01:05:15]It's 600 gallons. It's 10 foot long.

[01:05:17]>> Um, but it didn't have like a lot of coral in it. It had like like a certain, you know, like a it's a a decent number, but nothing crazy like how people have like a collection of like a million, you know, one inch rags. So, all the coral in this tank is absolutely gigantic. And it's it's really cool to see like um it's really cool to see a tank just full of like three foot long corals.

[01:05:49]>> There's actually no brags in it. So I should I should do a walk through and you know and talk about all the different aquariums because a lot of them have aged in nicely.

[01:05:58]>> Yeah, that would be good. I like it. You should >> look at my gray SPS tank, too.

[01:06:05]>> Do it up. Sounds video worthy.

[01:06:08]All right. Okay. You should do that.

[01:06:12]Ryan, thank you for the super chat.

[01:06:13]Filament and dryer fund. See, now I'm committed. Was 10 bucks for the film and dryer fund.

[01:06:18]>> There you go.

[01:06:19]>> I know. I think I might I seriously think I'm going to try this cuz I think I can make a better one that would last way longer and like a tenth of the price.

[01:06:30]And it's Amazon Prime sales next week, so it's a good excuse to buy one. The stars are aligning.

[01:06:38]>> Yeah. This ultra niche aquarium prompt was calling you.

[01:06:43]>> It is now.

[01:06:44]>> Well, I mean, I guess that's that's the the point of a lot of these aquarium DIY things. It's like no one's going to make one of these for you typically.

[01:06:53]>> Yeah.

[01:06:54]>> Your application's so weird and and small and goofy that no one's going to you're going to have to do it yourself.

[01:07:01]>> Well, it's because it's so niche. Like if it was $200, I'd buy one, but if it's like $7 $800, like it's so hard to justify that for like a dinky heater in an enclosure, it's like what?

[01:07:12]>> Mhm.

[01:07:13]>> You know, like the the cost of things is really insane.

[01:07:16]>> Yeah.

[01:07:17]>> So, I've got I've got a barn on my property and I wanted to get like new doors for this barn.

[01:07:23]>> Yeah.

[01:07:24]>> And the the the guy was like, "Yeah, it's like I don't know what your price range was, but it's like about, you know, it's like 13 or 15." I'm like, "Hundred?"

[01:07:34]Like, "No, thousand, >> man."

[01:07:37]>> I'm like, "I'm not paying $15,000 for doors on my barn. What are you crazy? [laughter] I I I go into this barn once a year."

[01:07:47]>> Dang it.

[01:07:48]>> No.

[01:07:50]>> Yeah, it's crazy out there.

[01:07:53]>> Yeah, exactly. It's like we're talking about doors, right? That's like wood, glass, and hinges, right? Mhm.

[01:08:01]>> on a barn.

[01:08:04]Again, I say this is for a barn.

[01:08:06]>> Let's get yourself some 2x4s and plywood and just bust out a basic door then.

[01:08:10][laughter] >> Is this like a big garage door or just like barn doors?

[01:08:16]>> Well, I guess it I guess it' just be like exterior doors.

[01:08:21]>> Yeah.

[01:08:21]>> Still seems crazy.

[01:08:24]>> Um I'm good.

[01:08:26]>> Yep. That's fine.

[01:08:27]>> Good.

[01:08:29]All right, I have to research filament dryers and now I'm sucked into this rabbit hole.

[01:08:34]>> Uh, speaking of custom projects, uh, one of the the things that makes urchin spawning so labor intensive, is that when they're in that chrysal tank, the jellyfish tank, you have to do so many water changes. You have to do about two per day.

[01:08:49]>> That's best practice. And it's not just for the waste that the little urchin larve produce from eating all that phytolanin and phytolankton spoiling and whatever, but it's because of the buildup of heterotrophic bacteria. So it that like doubles in population every so many hours. And so by doing two water changes, you're breaking up that reproductive cycle of bacteria.

[01:09:16]>> I have a thought question for you.

[01:09:18]>> Uhhuh. Given that it's a Chryso tank and everything stays suspended circuling, >> could you constantly drip in new salt water and have like a little outflow?

[01:09:28]>> The outflow is the problem there cuz you're going to outflow all your urchin larvy too. So >> could >> that's the tricky thing. So, I am actually talking about custom projects working with um an acrylic fabricator and basically I want to make the entire back uh back of the Chrysler tank a 50 micron screen.

[01:09:51]>> Yeah, exactly.

[01:09:52]>> And so I would be at that point feeding water in but it'd be going so um but >> be minimal. There'd be no suction.

[01:10:02]>> That's the important part. no suction across that screen.

[01:10:07]>> And so it's it is small enough to keep the urchin larve in >> 24-hour drip just slowly.

[01:10:16]>> And um and so you at that point you can hook it to filtration. You can you can set it to like a sump with a protein skimmer and UV. And now you don't have to worry about bacterial load because it's getting UV sterilized at that point.

[01:10:29]>> Yeah.

[01:10:30]And so you just have to like you you'll feed more in the way of phytolankton, but that's easy to feed. Doing two water changes a day is not easy.

[01:10:38]>> That's a lot of effort you'd save. I think the continuous strip is the way to go.

[01:10:43]>> Yeah. It's just the the engineering around a giant like 12 inch diameter 50 micron screen that's serviceable blah blah blah blah blah.

[01:10:53]>> Yep.

[01:10:54]>> That but that's the entire engineering project is is that is that screen assembly. And so we're getting we're getting closer. And at some point he's going to hit me with a bill that's going to be unfun for all that acrylic work.

[01:11:05][laughter] >> But that at least I can justify like a $15,000 door. I cannot >> Yeah, fair. Hopefully it's not that ridiculous. But I think there's solid potential and that would save you so much time and effort in the long run if you're going to keep doing this.

[01:11:20]>> Oh, for sure. For sure. And then and it scales cuz it's like me getting a second Chrysler tank and doing two water changes a day on that one too. That's not that's not scaling.

[01:11:30]>> Continuous drip, man. That's going to be the solution here.

[01:11:33]>> It is.

[01:11:34]>> And you can just adjust your drip to whatever the volume of water change you're going to do and it'll be more or less same same less impactful.

[01:11:41]>> 24our.

[01:11:42]>> Yep.

[01:11:42]>> Yep.

[01:11:43]>> I like it.

[01:11:44]>> You can do 24-hour phytolankton culture injection, too.

[01:11:50]>> Yeah.

[01:11:53]It's true.

[01:11:53]>> Keep those babies wellfed.

[01:11:55]>> Yep. Just continuous drip [laughter] your IV bags of new fresh water and phto and they're happy little guys.

[01:12:03]>> Yeah, I would definitely hook it up to filtration though, just just to have it on continuous life support and >> Yep.

[01:12:08]>> temperature management and all that.

[01:12:10]>> Yeah, that's true.

[01:12:11]>> That's kind of like that's kind of like what I'm working on for like phase two when I attempt this again. Well, you might as well have a >> Well, if you're already at this stage, just have a a full sump on that baby below it. And there's all your stuff down there.

[01:12:23]>> Mhm.

[01:12:24]>> Yeah, pretty much.

[01:12:25]>> Sweet. I like it. All right, then. I know it's late for you, so I won't keep you too long, but I appreciate you joining me for the the random rabbit hole tonight.

[01:12:32]>> Good to catch up. And and again, shout out and not sponsored, but shout out to Reaper Treat. It was a really good event.

[01:12:39]>> No, it looks really cool. I think eventually when I have free time again, I'll try and sneak out to one of those because I think >> I'll come to my own house whenever I decide to host one of those again.

[01:12:48]>> Give me a heads up when you think about it next time.

[01:12:51]>> Yep, sounds good.

[01:12:52]>> Awesome. Okay, thanks so much then.

[01:12:53]Thanks everyone for hanging out tonight and we'll see you guys in next week's live stream. Cheers.