The Most Brutal Murder In Medieval England

Añadido: 2026-05-30

[00:00:00]And so he said, "For the name of Jesus and the protection of the church, I am ready to embrace death." But the third knight inflicted a grave wound on the fallen one. With this blow, he shattered the sword on the stone and his crown, which was large, separated from his head, so that the blood turned white from the brain. Yet no less did the brain turn red from the blood.

[00:00:27]Then another knight placed his foot on the neck of the holy priest and precious martyr and it is horrible to say scattered the brains with the blood across the floor.

[00:00:43]So Christian, those are the words of Edward Grim who was the witness of perhaps one of the most certainly one of the most scandalous perhaps one of the most brutal murders of medieval Europe.

[00:00:54]And the victim of that murder was none other than the holiest man in the land, Archbishop Thomas Beckett, who was slain on December 29th, 1170.

[00:01:05]Very shocking.

[00:01:07]>> Bloody hell, man. That's that's that's some modern slasher flick stuff.

[00:01:13]>> Yeah, >> that's some that's the most visceral description I've heard in a while. And I I' I've worked on your darker channel.

[00:01:22]Yeah, it's ext it's an extremely brutal murder. Um it's almost comically brutal as well because um obviously the victim is an archbishop. He's not he's not a fighting man. And um well, we'll get on to the murder in in a minute, but basically the people who were sent to do him in should have should have got it done very easily and instead it just turns into this complete bloodbath. I mean, it really is uh yeah, it's pretty it's pretty grim. Well, well, it says here there's there's what, at least three knights, it says here or four knights. Um, >> yeah, >> surely between the four of them, they could have made a pretty clean kill.

[00:02:01]>> Yeah, it should have been very easy peasy. Um, but before we get on to the murder itself, I think we need to clear our throats a bit about why this is so important. So, uh, for those who don't know, uh, you can't kill priests basically, uh, especially not in medieval Europe. And you definitely, >> well, well, you can, but you shouldn't.

[00:02:20]>> Well, yeah, as you've seen. Yeah, you can. Um, but you definitely shouldn't.

[00:02:24]Um, and so this uh murder is clearly I think it's the it's the highest profile sort of case. It's like crime of the century. This is this is like the worst scandal in living memory at the time that this archbishop has basically been hacked to pieces inside of his own church. And also that church is the is Canterbury Cathedral which is the holiest site in England as well. So not only is the holiest person died uh he's also sort of been gutted uh and and pulled apart on the holiest place in England. So absolutely scandalous, complete sacrilege and obviously it's seen as an attack on the church itself. And the real sort of uh the caper is that none other than King Henry II authorized maybe this murder.

[00:03:16]So it's very very scandalous. So, this is essentially like saying that a member of the of the was it the Scots Guard or the Swiss Guard came in and murdered the Pope in the Vatican.

[00:03:32]>> Yeah.

[00:03:32]>> Or in St. Paul's Cathedral.

[00:03:34]>> Yeah. It's the English equivalent basically. Yeah. Four of these guards come in and do the Pope in in full gear in the middle of mass basically.

[00:03:42]>> That's insane. And it was uh >> ordained by the by the king evidently >> potentially. So we'll get on to this later. It's a bit of a question mark. I do have my own opinion, but historians are forever disagreeing about whether or not the king ordered this or whether it was a kind of miscommunication.

[00:04:01]>> Historians are disagreeing with each other. That's shocking.

[00:04:05]>> I know. Would you believe it? I know.

[00:04:07]It's incredible. Um but yeah, either way this event uh it kind of it it temporarily and sort of in a sense from then on uh leads to the kind of uh disintegration of the relationship between the wonderful English isles and the satanic popery. It's the beginning of the end really of Catholicism in Britain. So essentially this is the dude who kind of started the feud between the English monarchy and the Roman church then because because I mean I always when I think about the the the crown versus the church I always think of Henry VII.

[00:04:44]>> Yeah. Yeah. So he Henry VII is is a fair while down the line yet. So this happened in 1170.

[00:04:52]Um it definitely is not the same sort of um schism and and political change that happens under Henry VII who literally is almost almost more or less declaring war on Catholicism in the UK. Um this is a lot more by accident um or or or maybe uh if not by accident than then the the the beef with the church is this kind of collateral but it sets up the precedent and when Henry VII actually comes to wage war on the Catholic Church um he will start dealing with this question of Henry II and Thomas Beckett as well. It will keep coming up throughout the ages.

[00:05:28]>> So this is really like the starting point of the tensions then.

[00:05:32]>> Yeah. This is where it all begins. Yeah.

[00:05:34]If if um if the Roman Catholic Church and the the English monarchy had a relationship counselor, uh they would they would point to this as like year zero. This is where the troubles began.

[00:05:46]>> All right. Well, tell us about the murder then.

[00:05:49]>> So, the murder itself, right, so as we said, it's extremely brutal. Uh and it takes place in Canterbury Cathedral on the 29th of December, 1170, just after Christmas. Now, Thomas Beckett, the Archbishop, he's in his early 50s.

[00:06:04]Um, which is actually incredibly young for an archbishop, and we'll see how he got there a bit later on. Um, uh, but, you know, he to by our standards, he's a relatively middle-aged man. He's standing in Canterbury Cathedral, and he's holding vespers, which is a kind of evening prayer. And he actually start the starter of this prayer is quite appropriate. He says deos in atorium may inendi which basically means oh lord come to my assistance. Um which is great because he's going to need it. He's going to need it. Um while he's holding these vespers, four armed knights basically turn up and start banging on the door and they're saying, "Where's Thomas Beckett? He's a traitor to the king and the kingdom. Where is he?"

[00:06:47]And at this point, all the monks in the church basically start hanging around Becket and going, "Look, mate, you better you either need to lock the door up or you need to leave because they're going to do you." And Becket refuses.

[00:06:59]He's not up for it. So, he refuses to leave and he refuses to barricade the church. And he says to one of the monks, "This church shall not be made a fortress." Um, which although, you know, it's incredibly willful and badass, it's not particularly wise. Um there's nothing to stop the four knights getting in and get in they do. Now it's not terribly important but these these four knights they're called William D Tracy Reginald Fitz Richard Lab Breton and Hugh Demorville and they storm into this church and they basically they they bang in through the doors and everyone just stops and looks at each other. No one knows what's happening and they're like where's Becket? and none of the monks want to um you know reveal who he is. So they're all just stunn literally says here I am no traitor but a priest of God. So clearly identifies himself says here I am come and get me and they do they do so um because of the sensibilities of the time they shouldn't really kill him in the church. So they they grab hold of him and they basically start trying to pull this middle-aged man out from the church. But he knows as well, you've probably figured this out, he knows if he ends up outside the church ground, he's done for.

[00:08:20]>> So So they're specifically trying to pull him out of the church because to kill him in the church would be sacriiggious.

[00:08:28]>> Yeah. It would be an action or >> a sin just making a sin even worse.

[00:08:33]Yeah. Well, it would just be sloppy as well, wouldn't it? Um, so yeah, they they try and drag him out and on the on the way out, he gets hold of uh one of the pillars in the church and these four guys like they can't get him off. So they're they're trying endlessly u I I can't imagine what it must have looked like with these four knights armed to the teeth unable to get this guy off of the column. And eventually uh they've had enough of this and they just decide they're going to do the job in the church. It would better if they could do it outside, but since they can't, they decide they're just going to do it there and then. Now, we don't really know why. It could be that they didn't want it to go on too long in case someone intervened. Um they might not have even thought about how sort of catastrophic it was going to be politically and were just impatient, just wanted to get to him, hated him.

[00:09:26]Anyway, uh one of the knights swings first and uh he misses more or less. Um he doesn't land a killing blow on uh Becket, but he does just about skim the top of his scalp and knocks off his miter, which is this sort of religious hat. Um so Becket's not looking too pleased at this point. Obviously, he's alive, survivable, but he is missing a little bit of the top of his head. Um, now Edward Grim, the one that we heard from in the beginning who described the brains and blood and so forth, Edward Grim at this point decides to intervene, but there's so much sort of steel uh and hands being thrown around around that um he accidentally catches one of the blades in his wrist and Neil loses his hand. Again, we're not sure if um one of the knights purposefully struck him or if it was just such a sort of cluster that no one knew what was happening.

[00:10:21]>> Yeah. So, it's it's comical.

[00:10:23]>> He has he has a very comically fitting name. That's the worst part.

[00:10:28]>> Yeah. It's proper nominative nom nominative determinis, isn't it?

[00:10:32]>> Exactly. Exactly.

[00:10:33]>> Like Edward Grim. Yeah. I mean, to be fair to Edward though, uh you know, he clearly writes quite well. Um, and he obviously has a certain amount of courage because I think if I was there, I I would just be leaving. I wouldn't be thinking about getting in between the swords and the the old archbishop.

[00:10:51]>> He might have written quite well, but I would be quite worried about his handwriting after this event.

[00:10:57]>> Yeah, he must hope it was his left hand.

[00:10:59]Anyway, um, so I mean it's com it's comical. You've got these four trained soldiers. They're knights, right? So sort of aristocrats, but they are trained in the soldierly ways. and they just can't seem to get on with it. So much so that they're they're sort of indiscriminately whacking people's limbs about taking tops of scalps off and they still haven't dealt with Thomas Beckett.

[00:11:20]And eventually though, they managed to sort of wrestle him off of the um column and they get one last good swing in and this one uh more or less opens Beckett's skull and kills him. And this is where we get the quote of blood mixing with the brains as he falls down. Part or all of his sort of uh gray matter ends up on the floor. Uh at this point, one of the other knights, it might be an attendant, it's it's debated, um then basically walks up to the dead uh archbishop with his brain sort of pooling outside of his head, and dips his uh sword in the uh brain and sort of scatters it around ceremonially to sort of show that he's taken part even if he didn't land a blow on the living archbishop.

[00:12:06]>> That is so extra.

[00:12:08]>> Yeah. I mean, you saw a lot of this as well. There was a lot of talk that after the assassination of Julius Caesar, people were sort of dipping their knives and hands in his blood just to sort of show the participation even if they didn't actually do the act themselves cuz a lot of people obviously freeze in that moment as well. So afterwards you kind of want to show that you did mean to do it even if you sort of froze up in the moment.

[00:12:29]>> So it's it's it's a solidarity with the other murderers to say that I'm I'm just as much part of this as them.

[00:12:36]>> Yeah, basically. or maybe even a little bit of um as we'll come to see there are conflicting motivations amongst these uh these would be assassins. Well, I guess they were successful assassins but >> um maybe they're thinking that they might get some kind of reward or there might be some sort of glory involved >> in >> so they want to have proof by having by having the blood on their blade >> possibly. Well, not necessarily proof um but but certainly you know some of the honors they want to earn their stripes basically.

[00:13:04]>> All right. All right. So anyway, that's Arch that's Archbishop Thomas Becker.

[00:13:08]He's done. Um, >> she's very bad. But >> the fallout, the fallout from this murder is enormous. And later in the episode, we will come on to that. Um but a lot of the reason for the fallout is that the the orchestrator supposedly potentially of this brutal murder murder is uh King Henry II who is on the throne when he supposedly potentially issues this order and that's really what seals the deal and for Henry it's a complete catastrophe and it's made even more shocking by the fact that for most of their lives, especially in as children, young Henry and Thomas Beckett were the best of friends. So, what happened?

[00:13:57]>> Wait, so >> any guesses?

[00:14:00]>> I'm just trying to wrap my head around this. So, this dude calls for the the execution of his best friend and and he's the king.

[00:14:08]>> Maybe maybe calls for >> maybe. Maybe. Okay. Okay. So, so so he maybe calls for the execution of his best friend. his best friend being the Archbishop of Canterbury and him being the current king of England.

[00:14:24]>> Yes, >> that's so he's not >> insane.

[00:14:28]>> He's not just assassinated his sort of political rival in in the shape of an archbishop and thus declared war intentionally not on the church. He's also done his best mate in so it's extremely personal and extremely political. So Henry II, as I said earlier, I know more about Henry VII, um, and Henry V. Uh, but Henry that he was the he was the guy like to eat straw, right? Yeah. Yes. So, yes. Henry Henry II likes to eat straw. Um, so we've got a we've got a letter written by uh John of Salsbury who is talking about the king's temper and says um, "And the king flying into his usual temper, flung his cap from his head, pulled off his belt, threw off his cloak and clothes, grabbed the silken coverlet off the couch, and sitting as he might be on a dung heap, started chewing pieces of straw." So this is one of Henry's um, Henry II's. He's famously got this plantaginate anger and this is one of his ways of uh dealing with his uh with his anger issues.

[00:15:38]>> I heard about him eating I heard about him eating straw. But this whole quote is is is like absurd. It sounds like something out of a Monty Python skit.

[00:15:47]He's sitting on a dung heap gnawing on some straw after going off the rails.

[00:15:52]>> Well, he's he's sitting on the couch like he would on a dung heap. I'm not exactly sure what that means. like he was on a dung heap. Oh, I thought he was I thought he actually like was so fed up he just found the closest horizontal surface he could.

[00:16:07]>> Ah yeah. Well, I mean maybe that's maybe that is what Richard John Salsbury meant. I'm not sure. But anyway, um Henry I he has a terrible temper which sometimes leads to straw eating. And uh yeah, this temper is going to get him in some trouble later in the story. Um but he's lucky because even though as a child he always was extremely hot-tempered um he was uh in some senses sort of mellowed by his good pal and childhood friend Thomas Beckett who was much more sort of um reflective, much more gentle, much more uh tranquil. I think there are deep storms inside Henry whereas uh Thomas is is pretty chill. Um now both of them even as children are are very intelligent. Um they're clearly made of good stuff and they've got um some pretty uh bright futures ahead of them.

[00:17:03]And in fact when they're children um they're quite happy to indulge in the sort of pleasures of of royal and noble life. So obviously Henry II's going to be king as a child. Thomas Becker has got to find his own way and he's a he he will find it eventually. Um but while they're sort of in the in the throws of youth um they just basically spend their time messing about and having a good time. So at one point this is Beckett alone not even his uh his friend and future king Henry just just Becket he rec he apparently had uh maintained 700 knights a series of falconers some hunting dogs and endless and endless lavish banquetss. Um, now that's that's not necessarily out of the usual for a noble. Um, but it's really interesting because later in life once he gets involved in the church completely changed. I mean he he basically forsakes all or most of these kind of material lavish outgoings and in fact starts to uh wander around in a rough hair shirt which is really uncomfortable. So he's gone from complete luxury to complete discipline. It's quite an interesting change. I I I I was really confused by this description of of the way he kind of lived his life in his younger ages because you're talking about him being this like well a monk, you know, kind of like uh humble and like kind of down to earth as you say with a rough hair shirt, but the person you're describing is like like my mate from AA now he's a now he's a monk.

[00:18:33]>> Yeah, it's a huge change. Um it's a huge change, but I think I think it's genuine. I think Becket actually genuinely does have a change of heart and a change of priorities. And I think most young people are like that, right?

[00:18:45]I'm not interested now in the things that I was when I was 16 or 18. Um, so anyway, uh, Thomas and uh, Henry, they grow up together. They're they like to hunt together and play chess, classic nobleman's activities. And, uh, a deep trust is is forged between the two of them. Henry, in particular, uh, really comes to trust Becket. And um this is a sort of uh almost the trope of of medieval kings really is that they rely so strongly on people that they can trust because there aren't many people you can trust in a royal court. Um and so that trust is an enormous currency and if he place it in the wrong person, wink wink, foreshadowing, uh you could end up in a pretty uh brutal quagmire.

[00:19:30]Anyway, so in 1154, Henry actually becomes king of England.

[00:19:36]Um, and Beckett the year after in 1155 is appointed chancellor. And this is one of the most powerful sort of roles you can have in the land other than king.

[00:19:48]And um, >> it's gone.

[00:19:50]>> It's it's it's a good to have friends in high places. I guess >> it's great. Yeah. So for Becca, it's great to have friends in high places, but for Henry, it's great to have it's even better to have friends in lower places because you've got someone around you that that's personally loyal to you.

[00:20:07]They don't >> sure if like if you've grown up together and and you know everything about each other and you genuinely love each other, then you're not going to be worried that this guy's going to try and sideliner you if there's some political disagreement cuz chances are you're cut from the same cloth. You're going to have similar priorities. And this is where Henry gets it wrong because it is leading up to and around this time that Thomas Beckett starts to really involve himself in the church. Now, you you said it's good to have friends in high places. It certainly is. But let's not forget that Beckett's a young man. He's got to make his name. He's got to do something. He's not destined to be king like Henry is. And he sees his future in the church.

[00:20:48]So whilst Henry is sort of getting ready to be king, uh Thomas is is becoming a really really serious Christian and his other sort of church contemporaries take him really seriously as well. This is a person who's got some real some real talent for that job and is definitely going places. Um so Henry's misread it a little bit already. He thinks that this guy is going to be his guy and is going to back him on everything. But Beckett has loyalties elsewhere. He's not that interested anymore really in just being second fiddle to the crown and doing whatever his best mate tells him to.

[00:21:23]Becket's become quite seriously attached to the church and has some opinions of his own and this is going to lead to some real problems later on. Anyway, those first six years um as Becket goes by as chancellor uh are more or less event-free and then in 1161 uh Archbishop Theobald of Bach succumbs after a long bout of illness.

[00:21:46]And Henry II sees this as a massive opportunity. So the next year in 1162, he promotes Hen he promotes um Thomas Beckett to Archbishop of Canterbury. So uh Thomas Beckett is now his chancellor and he's now his archbishop.

[00:22:04]H >> how's that even possible? I that seems like a massive like it's it's two incredibly powerful positions and it feels like one person can't possibly hold both of them.

[00:22:17]>> No, they can't. Well, Henry thinks they can. And again, for Henry, it's all about trust. It's a bit I think Medieval Kings is almost sort of like the mafia um in that you're just constantly worrying about who you can trust. That's what's the most important thing. who's loyal, who's going to stick by you. Um, he thinks Henry, he thinks that Thomas Becket is this guy. So, he gives him two jobs at once. Now, Becket obviously is is thrilled when he gets this archbishop promotion because he loves the church.

[00:22:50]He's obsessed with Christianity and theology, and he thinks this is going to be a great thing. So, Becket is like jumping up and down, uh, shaking his hand and going, "Yes, please. I'll have that job." Um, and Henry thinks, "Great, I've now got um my strongest supporter in the two uh one of the two of the most powerful positions in the land. I'm golden. My reign's going to be marked by security and ease of governance and all these things."

[00:23:14]>> I I cannot see how that would end up end badly, putting one guy in two incredibly powerful positions, one being the church and one being the government. No, I that's that's flawless. Truly flawless planning. Yeah. So you you secular thinkers like you and I would already be guessing what's going to go wrong here.

[00:23:35]But we're but you'd be mistaken.

[00:23:37]Thomas Becket is not that ambitious politically in the sense of wanting to be king or wanting to get anything out of the king.

[00:23:44]>> Instead he does the most unexpected thing. Chris, he resigns. He resigns as chancellor and says, "I've got to do what I really want."

[00:23:55]>> That's crazy. Like you that's unheard of in like today's like world where people cling to power until they're dead and this is the most powerful position you can get without being born into it.

[00:24:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and to and to be fair it's not just our world. I mean, Henry II, um, anyone who's who's aware of him will know that this is someone who was desperate to cling to power until he was dead and had to constantly fight his sons over it because they kept basically asking him if he could if they could have their turn on the crown on the throne. Now, he'd made them king and then just refuse to give them any power.

[00:24:33]So, Hen Henry's God, this is how Henry sees power. Once you once you get it, you keep it. And so he's he's absolutely flabbergasted that Thomas Becket has has basically jumped ship and just decided um to go to the church only. And Thomas Becker has got a fair point. He says he can't serve the crown and the church equally. So he's got to do what he will do best and he's going to go with the church.

[00:24:57]What Becket doesn't realize or maybe doesn't care about is that leaving that chance of the ship uh spot as a sort of vacuum is actually going to massively hurt Henry's political stance.

[00:25:10]It's a massive problem because and I'll keep saying it over and over again this this episode, trust is everything, especially in an early early medieval court. And whoever comes next may not necessarily be someone Henry can trust.

[00:25:25]So now he's got to give someone what are the most important jobs in the land and >> and they're not their best friend.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. Who's he going to give it to? Um so you know Thomas thinks great I've got my dream job. See you later. Thanks.

[00:25:39]Thanks Henry. You know you got me exactly where I wanted to be. It is nice to have friends in high places. And Henry's sort of thinking well that's disappointing. You know he's not furious. I'm sure you know at home he was probably you know a few strong words were used when he was explaining the situation. But he he's he's not chastising uh Thomas yet or anything like that. The two the two aren't angry at each other. It's just disappointing.

[00:26:01]>> But but but I'm sure I'm sure there was a part of Henry that could have seen his perspective of I can't be holding two perspectives. I can't be holding two positions. I have to focus on one. And they're almost contradictory positions at times where the interests of one won't necessarily serve the interests of the other. So, I can see how he could resign without there actually being a rift between the two of them.

[00:26:30]>> So, you're you're right that you can't serve both. And I think Henry probably would have seen that. And and we're we're actually just about to see uh those conflicts emerge. Um, but at the same time, I think Henry feels like I've given you the best job in the land, and then I've given you your favorite job in the land, and instead of sort of sticking them both out as a favor to me, you've sort of given me the middle finger and just run off with the church like you always wanted to.

[00:26:59]>> Um, I'm just I'm I'm just left out here high and dry trying to figure out who's going to fill your boots that I can trust in the same way. And also again, uh it's that violation of trust. It's that feeling that there's, you know, the walls are closing in. There's one less person you can count on. Um I think I think it's fair to I feel sorry for Henry actually all throughout this episode. I'm quite anti-becket.

[00:27:24]Uh I think I think although Henry was a terrible person, I do feel for him on the on the Becket question and I think you will too after this uh this next section. So basically >> all right >> the the church and the crown come to blows more or less they they have a massive uh falling out and uh this is over the legal system. So basically um at this time in in England and parts of northern France as well because that was Henry's kingdom too. You had two legal systems, two courts. You had ecclesiastical courts. Now, these were run by the church and um you had royal courts which were run by the king. So, if you were a commoner or a normal person, you did something wrong, chances are you were going to end up in the royal court and you'd be met with a pretty severe punishment, especially considering the standards of the time.

[00:28:16]If you were a member of the clergy though, then you would go to the ecclesiastical court and there you would receive much more lenient punishments, much more. So uh there was uh in one case there was a priest who was accused of murder and uh we don't know too much about this case. We don't even know the priest's name actually and I think that's because the church protected his privacy. Um >> and this person was accused of murder.

[00:28:45]Yeah. Yeah. They'll get you. Um thousand year history of covering scandal. Anyway, um anyway, we're not flashback politics. So, uh yeah, >> sorry.

[00:28:58]>> Um anyway, uh so this priest is accused of murder. He's found guilty. And guilty uh being guilty of murder in um in the royal courts would mean you'd probably be executed. Murder is a death penalty offense.

[00:29:13]Um this priest however, this man of God who should do no evil receives um the harshest of slap on the rips and uh he gets a sentence of penance which basically means an extended period of praying. Uh so it's pretty so the church the church are literally letting people get away with murder.

[00:29:36]>> Just say sorry.

[00:29:39]>> Yeah. Yeah, basically more say sorry to God. You know, spend some time praying, maybe eat some really bland food for a while. Uh you might have to go somewhere unpleasant, do some praying in a sort of boring room, but you know, >> go think about what you've done.

[00:29:50]>> Yeah. Basically, um basic because God forgives, right? Um anyway, so to the average person and and especially to those in Henry's administration, they're sort of they're sort of thinking that this isn't on that it it shows that the justice system isn't properly working and it actually undermines Henry's authority to rule because if if you if the realm isn't working under your crown, um then maybe you shouldn't be the one wearing it. I mean, it's the same as politicians today. you know, if you can't sort your out, people will start asking who else can. So Henry has to crack down on this. So he goes to Beckett and he basically says, "Look, we we've got to do something about this."

[00:30:33]And Becket says, "Nap, church must remain independent. The king should not interfere interfere with the church authority.

[00:30:41]Nothing's going to change here. You can have your royal court. You can do what you want to your commoners, but the clergy, we play by our own rules, basically. And the king can't stick his nose in.

[00:30:51]Um, yeah. You you're thinking something there, Christian?

[00:30:56]>> It just looks It just looks really really bad. It's It's just It's really messy that this guy can turn around and say no to the king. It just looks really bad for the king.

[00:31:08]>> Yeah. And also, let's not forget uh who put him there.

[00:31:13]>> Yeah. He didn't just magic his way or work his way necessarily as a commoner, as a stranger up to that position. He was put there as a favor with the sort of unspoken, perhaps even quietly spoken expectation that look, I'll give you a dream job, but every now and again, you're going to have to sort of pull the line and help me out. And here Becket is basically digging his his heels into the ground over is essentially a Yeah, it's not it's not it wasn't this particular case, but >> Oh. Oh, sure. Sure.

[00:31:44]>> But murder is in, you know, I think in in general, I'm I'm with Henry.

[00:31:49]>> Yeah. Me, too. Fully.

[00:31:50]>> Yeah. I think if you if you're going to break the law, you should you should expect the same uh legal recourse as anyone else would.

[00:31:57]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:57]>> Totally. That's insane.

[00:32:00]>> Especially if you're going to be a priest, you shouldn't even be really breaking the law.

[00:32:03]um supposed to be a good egg.

[00:32:06]>> It feels like there's this insane like audacity on the end of Beckett who's like, "No, we're we have our own rules and I choose those rules."

[00:32:17]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's in this is Beckett's problem. He's incredibly stubborn. Um now I think what Beckett's thinking, and I'll I'll do my best to sort of give Becket's opinion here, is that he's thinking that the church is sacred.

[00:32:32]um that the king can't really be meddling into the ecclesiastical courts, otherwise there'd be no point of having them. And as much as he's my mate, as a Christian and as a me as the archbishop and a member of the church, I cannot betray the principles of this religious organization as a favor to my old pal.

[00:32:53]Obviously, I don't think either of us buy that argument, but I do think that that's where Henry's coming from. Uh that's where Thomas is coming from.

[00:33:00]Sorry. I don't think he's out to get his old pal. I just I just think he's a bit of a of a sort of Bible basher, you know?

[00:33:07]>> I get his logic, but it's a stretch to me because at the end of the day, you're trying to skirt the law. You are still trying to get around punishment, like legal punishment.

[00:33:18]>> Um, not necessarily actually because uh the king's law wasn't the only law in town. That's why there were two >> courts. So, it's not that Thomas Becket's saying we clergymen shouldn't be held accountable. He's just saying we're not going to be held accountable by you. But my issue is that the standards of account are so different.

[00:33:45]>> And it's like when when one person says you should be hung, which I'm not I'm not even necessarily saying like yay, death penalty.

[00:33:54]>> But when one person says you're getting hung and another person says go think about what you did for the same crime, I can see the tension there.

[00:34:03]>> Yeah. It's I I think it's obviously unjust.

[00:34:06]>> Yeah.

[00:34:06]>> Um definitely. So, I think we're both team Henry there. Anyway, Henry's >> Henry's definitely team Henry. Uh, so he basically pulls his uh trump card and in 1164 uh outside Clarendon uh he he basically puts together the constitutions, the constitutions of Clarendon. And here he attempts to legally reduce church power and expand his own royal authority over clergy. So basically says nice try but I am the king and this is going to happen.

[00:34:42]>> That must have fundamentally like reformed the entire legal structure of England like that it or even large parts of Europe. I can't imagine any form of politics would have been the same like after the what the the constitutions of Clarion. So, so, so what exactly like how did these constitutions like change things, >> right? So, a constitution is is an unfortunate word because obviously it has so many rings with things like the American constitution and it's very different. So, basically the king doesn't have a parliament or anything at this point. He has uh a basically a curia regist I think they're called um basically a group of nobles and and magnates and other important people. these come and go as the king favors and as they have more influence in the land. So he basically calls them all around and he says uh look I want to do this what do you guys think and obviously if you're if you're smart unless it's going to hurt you you say I that's a wonderful idea your majesty and let's do that. Now obviously if if it's actually going to do you harm um then like you know the king saying I want you to give up half your land um then you might say well you know it's an interesting proposition your majesty but have you considered y but basically on this point no one but a few people in the church are going to say anything because why would you stick your neck out and go against the king once he's basically got them all to agree he can more or less pass it as a kind of a sort of impromptu congress of nobles and get it going. Now Thomas Beckett is in attendance at these constitutions of Clarendon.

[00:36:28]And uh he says all right he says fine he's not going to he's not going to argue with it. So after all that the king finally like you know calls his bluff and and Beckett resins his um his determination. He decides he's going to let the king get away with it. And so Henry is really happy and the result of the constitutions of Clarendon basically is that the king now has the control he needs to sort of bring the ecclesiastical courts in line. Job done.

[00:36:58]It's all finished. It should end here.

[00:37:01]>> Credit role.

[00:37:02]>> And then Yeah. And then Beckett changes his mind. Once the constitutions of Clarendon are over and everyone's gone home, Becket was like, "Nah, never agreed to that and I'm never going to."

[00:37:15]just just throws it all out the water.

[00:37:17]>> Uh, >> no takebacks.

[00:37:20]>> Yeah. Well, but he did take back because he said he would and then he didn't.

[00:37:25]>> Um, so yeah, Henry's Henry's furious at this. Like this is the point at which the relationship between the two men is severed. That it's never going to come back from here. I think understandably.

[00:37:36]>> Yeah. I I I got to say at this point I'm still team Henry.

[00:37:41]>> Yeah. I mean to be fair despite him trying to like take power over the ecclesiastical courts which you can argue prone and against that but I mean like Beckett said he was going to be following these constitutions and then like they get home and he's like nah. So I can to like at this point like on that I can once just again understand uh Henry's position of like well you lied to me. Yeah. I mean to to be fair to Beckett though, um Henry, as we know from his habit of chewing straw, doesn't have the best temper.

[00:38:20]So I can understand maybe why you might in the moment just sort of nod along and then once he's at a safe distance say how you really feel.

[00:38:26]>> True. Um, and obviously if you look at if you look at Henry's personal life, um, and what's sort of going on elsewhere, which we'll get on to in a moment, um, you he's he's not the nicest cookie as medieval kings go. He's not he's not awful, but he's certainly there are there there are some concerns about his relationship with power. I think Thomas Becket might have spotted these. So instead of seeing this sort of level-headed king who's come to restore justice to the realm and and and get the the the confidence of his people back, I think what Becket sees as a tyrant who's coming for more power and is now trampling on the only thing in the land uh that matters, which is faith and God.

[00:39:13]Henry, obviously, I think it's very easy to see how he's put this person in a position of power because he can trust him and now he's playing games with him.

[00:39:22]um over nothing. So Henry's furious. At this point, Thomas realizes that it's probably a good idea uh to piss off. So he goes to France um and basically just waits there for a little bit just to let things cool down, which I think is a really smart move from Becket. It's the far the smartest move he's done yet. Um it's the only smart move he actually makes in the story really.

[00:39:48]>> So while Beck's away. Yeah. Yeah. Just lay low, shut up, just let things cool down. Um, you know, Henry does have a temper, but he's also he's is he's a very emotional man. He he he clearly cares very deeply about those around him, and it's very possible that Beckett could work his way back into his good books. I think Henry doesn't hold a grudge. He spent years, we'll get on to it. We We'll get on to it. Henry.

[00:40:15]>> Um anyway, while Beckett's away, um we start to see Henry's personal life in a bit more detail. So, uh Henry is forever, uh quibbling with his sons.

[00:40:32]Um they basically, uh want power and he's not ready to give it away. So, he gives his eldest son uh whose name escapes me. I'm so sorry. Um I think it's Richard. Can you can you look it up, Chris, while I go? He gives his eldest son, um the title of uh king eventually, but he doesn't share any of the power.

[00:40:57]And then in the other songs, he gives all kinds of nice things to, but he doesn't really share any of the power.

[00:41:01]Henry likes to administrate by himself.

[00:41:04]Um he's not really a sharer, as we've seen with Becket and the church.

[00:41:09]And eventually these sons um they they start rebelling against him.

[00:41:14]>> So yeah, you're right. It's John and Richard, >> right? John's the youngest though, isn't he?

[00:41:20]>> Yeah, John's the youngest one.

[00:41:21]>> Yeah, >> John is the younger one because he um he's the one that ends up having to sign the Magna Carta later on. That's right.

[00:41:29]Anyway, >> okay.

[00:41:30]>> Um so all of his sons >> are rebelling against him. John's actually the last one to rebel. Um, and even when John rebels, like Henry's furious. Um, but then when he finds out that like his sons have died, he he's personally crushed. Um, he's he's always upset about it, even though these people have been at war. So Henry definitely has a a deep emotional reservoir and lets politics get in the way sometimes.

[00:41:56]Or maybe you could say he lets his emotions get in the way of the politics.

[00:41:59]It can go both ways. Anyway, because of all this sort of jumbling around, these sons constantly disobeying him and this sort of weird thing. Um, and then and then one of them dying, uh, Henry needs to sort out the succession problem. Who is going to be king when he dies?

[00:42:17]Basically, because if he doesn't get this squared away, there's going to be a civil war. Uh, probably before he's dead.

[00:42:25]Now, in order to anoint someone a junior king or a king, you need an archbishop and Thomas Beckett is in France.

[00:42:36]Now, >> oh dear.

[00:42:37]>> Henry. Yeah. Oh dear. Now Henry can't really wait for Thomas Beckett to go through all the issues of of communication and get to London and do all the business. He also doesn't necessarily want to go graveling to his now new political enemy.

[00:42:52]So what he does is he basically grabs a local sort of priest, a nobody really, and uh has has this priest coronate his son as the new junior king. Uh a bishop, sorry, not a priest. Now obviously this is not a job for a bishop. This is a job for an archbishop.

[00:43:11]Um he Henry doesn't mind. No one really minds. You know, hurrah, we've saved ourselves from civil war. Again, it might not be to the to the letter Christian doctrine or what the church would like, but the alternative is civil war. So, let's have peace and let's just, you know, um Beckett hears about this and he's absolutely furious that the king has basically got this bogus priest to start ordaining new kings while he's away in France. That's his job. Thank you very much. And um for the first time, he he decides to flex his muscles.

[00:43:46]So he starts excommunicating all of the bishops involved in the coronation of his son as future king and basically saying that this doesn't count which you know that's just petty.

[00:44:00]>> I can't get Yeah. So petty, so stupid as well. So pointless.

[00:44:06]>> It's like this actually doesn't even really affect Beckard. It's like whoever is the next king like that that was always going to happen whether Becket was there or not. Like so so he's he's really just being petty.

[00:44:22]>> He I don't think so actually. I I think >> I think he's a person of deep principle.

[00:44:29]So he's thinking first this tyrant has taken away the rights of the church to hold themselves to account sticking his nose in church business. Now he's playing fast and loose with the rules of whether or not someone can be king.

[00:44:41]Because remember at this time um to to actually be a king um you you had to go through your coronation process which made you literally more than a man. The whole belief was that there was something spiritual that happened during the process that made you stand out from other mortals. You were God's man on earth. So if you had some ridiculous fake priest doing it, then you'd end up with some ridiculous fake king and it would just be, you know, it open a whole tin of worms. Both practical, does this king have the right to rule? Could there be a civil war later? Uh and obviously like um uh to do with running the Rome itself.

[00:45:17]Is he going to be competent? Will he be imbued with the necessary powers and with God's favor? So Becket isn't trying to just sort of rub Henry's nose in it.

[00:45:27]I think there is a bit of that, but I think he also is sort of doing his best as a member of the church to do what members of the church do, uh, which is to sort of keep the church in a position of power and authority, um, and keep their leverage. Anyway, so as you can imagine, >> so there's very much there's a a legitimate argument behind why Henry is doing this because if the right priest didn't do it in the right way, he's not he doesn't have the superpowers to be king.

[00:46:00]>> That's that's Beckett's argument. Yeah.

[00:46:02]I mean, >> to be fair, actually, I'm not sure. Um, someone may disagree with me or know better, but but my feeling is that is probably why Beckett's got his big panties in a twist or or if not Becket specifically, that's why the church in general wouldn't like that. And I I mean I'm going to be honest from that perspective from a from a point of deep rooted belief and you having a state built on that deep rooted belief. I actually have come around to Beckett's argument on excommunication and it not being petty. I I'm Yeah, that's a really good point there actually.

[00:46:42]>> But I mean there could have been a level pettiness to it though.

[00:46:46]I'm still team Henry because he's saying >> he's saying if you get this wrong guy there could be a civil war, right? If you get the wrong priest to do him. And Henry's saying if someone doesn't do this now, there will be a civil war. No mits about it. So I'm still teen Henry.

[00:47:02]>> No. Sure. But I I also feel like from uh from Beck's perspective, I don't know if he really had another option.

[00:47:10]No, he wouldn't be he wouldn't be Archbishop of He wouldn't be doing the job of Archbishop of Canterbury if he didn't immediately start.

[00:47:18]>> Well, I'm not sure if he had to excommunicate. Excommunicate is strong, but but respond.

[00:47:23]>> Yeah, he definitely I think he had to respond.

[00:47:26]>> Yeah. Okay.

[00:47:28]>> Well, I think I think Beckett's uh weakness really is that he's not he's not politically minded. He's not thinking about the consequences of of this excommunication. He's not thinking about the retaliation that's going to come back to him. And you've got to put yourself in Henry's shoes here, right?

[00:47:46]He's now depending on the bishops that remain loyal to him to do basic things that are essential for the realm. And now all these bishops have been excommunicated. And the big bishop hates his guts. So Henry, who started this whole political business with Thomas Beckett to sort of have power and remain secure, has just been left ruless. He's absolutely diminished. Um, and he's he's furious. I mean, he's the amount of hay of straw he must have gone through that afternoon.

[00:48:19]Anyway, at some point um during this sort of uh back and forth, Becket ends up um in England and um whilst Henry's sort of ranting and raving about how Thomas Becket has sort of done him dirty and and you know he's just constantly meddling, he screams, "Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?"

[00:48:43]Now, this is the famous outburst. Um, he may not have said these exact words, but he definitely said something to that effect. And the big question here is what did he mean? Was that just like, oh my god, what's going to happen with this guy? Or was it like who's going to deal with this guy? Do you know what I mean?

[00:49:04]>> So, this is the order to kill Beckett that this whole story started on.

[00:49:12]>> That's the order. Yeah, that's the order. So the question is not even really in order or is it?

[00:49:18]>> Well, that's the thing because if you if you were the king of England and you were going to try and kill the Archbishop, which I think I think Henry might have been want to do or certainly wise to do, would you say out or would you say out loud or would you sort of let your sort of thugs guess that's what you wanted so that you could later on be like didn't mean that. Do you know what I mean? He's got a little bit of plausible deniability.

[00:49:42]>> Yeah. I mean, that's exactly what it sounds like. It's like, gosh, I it it sure would suck if someone got rid of this priest, you know? Damn. I would really hate it if someone went and killed this priest where this is his address.

[00:49:57]>> He's in Canterbury right now. Yeah, his vespers are in three hours. Yes.

[00:50:01]>> God, that would suck. Wank.

[00:50:04]>> Yeah. Anyway, those four knights who um appeared earlier in the story with the ridiculous names, they take this as a literal order. So they think this is probably what Henry wants. So they basically immediately um they get on a horse and they start yakking it to Canterbury and um and we sort of more or less end up where we started. So um actually a little bit before they get to the church, they um they they turn up to Beckett's house basically and um they tell him like it's time for you to go and have a word with the king.

[00:50:36]You know that this is enough now. and um he more or less tells them to do one. He just says, "Nah, not interested. Got vespers in a couple of hours. Have a good trip home, boys." You know, so he completely >> So this was before he they confronted him in the church. They were like, "All right, we'll we'll we'll do you the courtesy of coming to your home first."

[00:50:59]>> Yeah. Because because I can imagine the this whole situation with the final outcome would have been far easier if it never happened in a church.

[00:51:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um also keen keen listeners will have noticed that in the in the original telling of the story I mentioned that there was a sort of standoff where they were asking who Becket was.

[00:51:22]Do you remember that? M.

[00:51:23]>> But if they'd seen him at his house earlier that day, they probably already knew what he looked like, unless the church was really dark.

[00:51:29]>> Oh.

[00:51:30]>> Um, so I'm not sure how to how to explain that. The accounts definitely make it seem like they walked in to that church and were like, "Who is he?" But maybe they maybe it was more of a case of where is he? Like where's he hiding?

[00:51:45]Anyway, they definitely knew what he looked like cuz they turned up at his house earlier and said, "Look, do you want to is do you want to just come out of war with the king for us?" Do you know what I mean? Maybe they were going to walk him into the woods and do him there. I'm not sure. Maybe they genuinely did think if they dragged him before the king something would happen.

[00:52:00]Unlikely, to be honest, because the king could just summon him. Um, so Becket tells them to do one. Again, not particularly wise. Um, and so the knights basically just leave. Uh Becket gets ready for Vespers and just as he's about to start, there's that big wrap on the door. The four knights come in and he's butchered uh rather comically and his head is split open with a sword. I mean, they I think they'd have done easier work with like a club. I mean, it sounds like they really didn't know what they were doing.

[00:52:34]>> It wasn't a very elegant uh um execution. I'm going to be honest. I've I've seen better work in slasher films.

[00:52:42]Yeah, it's also complete overkill. I mean, if if you ever held a sword, even even a one-handed sword, um they're really heavy and and and they will go through you like butter. I mean, they really are shockingly effective. Um I don't know why they didn't just turn up with a with a with some sort of steak knives. I think it probably would have been less messy and Edward Grim would probably still be able to write with dictate.

[00:53:06]>> It's just a big stick.

[00:53:08]>> It would do the job. Uh probably it'll probably be less messy. Anyway, >> um by the end of it, obviously uh they've all sort of covered themselves in the church in blood. Uh Europe is absolutely horrified. This is the crime of the century. What happened here? Uh monks start dipping cloths into the blood um to sort of become like holy relics.

[00:53:33]People are sort of trying to consume the blood as this kind of healing because Thomas Becket is cuz he's a martyr, right? He's died for the church on the church grounds at the hands of a tyrant.

[00:53:47]Um, so you got that strong mart.

[00:53:49]>> I guess I guess I see the >> It all falls into that.

[00:53:53]>> It all falls into that that uh martyrdom of the Christian church, you know, that's so such an integral part of it.

[00:54:01]>> I see the logic. It's just absurd. It's just like all of this is absurd.

[00:54:06]>> Yeah, it's strange. Yeah. I think this is the part of the the beauty of reading the medieval uh parts of history is like they're so relatable, the characters themselves.

[00:54:16]>> Yeah.

[00:54:17]>> And the things they go through, but the way they respond and the way things happen, the world they live in, it's completely alien to us. It's it's it's like I I was I was actually watching a podcast today and this guy made a fantastic point is when you're reading about history, you got to remember that the circumstances were different, but they're still running on the same software.

[00:54:38]>> We're all still human. We still have the same responses to things.

[00:54:43]>> Definitely. Definitely. I I think I like I I've said it before, I'm with Henry here and I I I sort of viscerally feel his frustration with Becket. Um so by the time they actually turn up and hack him to death, but by the time you've read that far in the story, I don't feel particularly sorry for him. Um I mean it's a pretty grim end. Uh but I think you know to an extent something had to happen there. Anyway, >> I think that I think that a lot of our listeners and viewers who aren't familiar with the story, hearing that cold open would be quite sympathetic towards Beckett. But throughout the hour that we've been talking about this, that sympathy goes away very quickly.

[00:55:28]>> Yeah. He's it it's that stubbornness again, isn't it, that comes out. Bar the doors, leave. And he's like, like when you first uh hear the story, he's like, "This church shall not be made a fortress." And then the monk and then the knights are like, "Where is he?" And he's like, "Here I am. No traitor to the king, but a priest of England or something. Priest of God." And you hear all that and you think, "God, what a badass. This guy has no fear. He he he's on fire with his faith. This is a man of integrity." And then by the time you've got this horror, you think, "God, what a stubborn prick." You know, just do >> it. It almost sounds like he thinks he can't die. He's like, "What are you going to do? Kill me?"

[00:56:09]>> Yeah, but he does. I I think that is his fault. What are you going to do? Cuz remember, he's he's so um moved by his faith that he he probably he might physically be scared, but he probably intellectually isn't or emotionally isn't that concerned with the thought of dying, especially for his faith.

[00:56:25]>> Sure. Anyway, um after his death three years later, um Pope Alexander III actually canonizes Thomas Becket as a saint. Um >> okay.

[00:56:36]>> Which is a massive middle finger to Henry who who oh sorry who for the crime of um having ordered the death of Beckett has also himself been personally excommunicated.

[00:56:46]Um so yeah, Henry's not come out of this very well at all. But um so this was like well yeah like 10 years later he gets canonized >> or >> three years >> three years but that's like that's that really is such a diss to the king. Like I didn't actually fully wrap my head around it when you first said it but like literally three years after him being killed making him a saint. That's that's got to be a statement directly to Henry.

[00:57:17]>> It is. I I think also it's that again it's that martyrdom. Here's a martyr.

[00:57:21]Let's not lose him. But it is also like, oh, you killed our holiest man in England. Well, too bad. Now he's super holy, and you're not just a um a priest killer, but you're now a saint killer as well. So chew on that for a little while.

[00:57:33]>> Yeah. Stick stick that in your straw and smoke it.

[00:57:36]>> Um so that's that's Henry. He must have by the end of this there must have been a sort of shoulder high pile of of uh chewed straw. And um anyway, as a result of all this uh obviously uh Beckett's market martyrdan's uh canonized people start taking pilgrim pilgrimage sites to Canterbury throughout the next couple hundred years. Um obviously if anyone's read the Canterbury tales they're going to Canterbury for a reason. Um it's the site of Beckett's murder. TS Elliot's play Murder in the Cathedral is inspired by these events. And then of course the later irony is what you picked up earlier Chris which is Henry VIII. So when when Henry VII does sort of uh start getting bicost towards the Catholic Church um he destroys all of Beckett's shrines and relics um as a sort of statement that like these these kinds of characters are not what we want in our version of Christianity. Um sublimation to the church is the >> first thing.

[00:58:38]So, I think our viewers are desperate to know, and I think maybe maybe you've come to your own conclusions as well, Christian, is was Henry II guilty?

[00:58:50]That's a tough one, and I don't think we'll ever really get an answer, but I want to say yes.

[00:58:59]>> Yeah.

[00:59:00]I mean, look, I I I still think I'm still pro Henry in the story, but I do really believe he was subtly trying to say someone off this guy.

[00:59:12]Yeah, it's tough. It's tough. I'll um I'll go through some of the arguments because I I'm I'm very on the fence. Um heart on my sleeve. I'm slightly I'm slightly thinking not guilty, but I'll explain in a bit.

[00:59:26]>> Okay. So, um, my arguments, uh, for Henry being guilty are as follows. Um, the king's words obviously always have enormous weight. So, even if he wasn't directly ordering a murder, he would have known with a public outburst of that nature that someone was going to get ideas. Um, and no matter how angry you are, um, that's important. So even if you know you could say I beat him around the head with a with a flower pot cuz I was so angry but he died I didn't mean to kill him. It's like yeah but you know you were so angry you weren't thinking about what you were doing. And I think that that's kind of where it is.

[01:00:11]The other thing is I I think he was stupid not to think that the knights around him would have thought oh king wants something done. Let's go and do that and we'll be rewarded. Like what why did he not go through with that? The argument I think that works in Henry's defense are as follows. So he obviously he didn't actually ever directly order a murder. He's always struggled with his temper. I don't think it was out of character and in the circumstances to have sort of said something like that.

[01:00:39]And he also comes down like a ton of bricks on these four nights.

[01:00:46]Now whether this is him trying to sort of politically distance himself from them or whether this is him just angry because they killed his friend, we don't know. But they lost all their lands and titles. They were forced into exile and crusades. All of them died in disgrace and relative poverty outside of England.

[01:01:02]They never came back to the aisles again. So they certainly were punished again. We just don't know if that's him saying, "I don't want to be associated with these guys. Thanks. You've done your work. Off you go." very Machavelian or if he just thought you guys killed my friends. You you've humiliated me. I didn't order this and you just gone and done it. You can you can do one. Who knows? As for Henry II himself, um obviously he makes a massive display of his public mourning. Um so he he's he sort of goes into grief for weeks. He starts walking barefoot across London into Beckett's tomb. He has monks uh behind him sort of whipping him in public as well to sort of show he's sorry. Um and again, I'm not sure if that's him sort of trying to square it with the almighty or if this is just political theater, but if it is political theater, he's either really stupid or he's a genius.

[01:02:05]Because kings very often do not make a theater out of exercising their powerlessness. It's all about their power. It's all about the fact that they can do what they want, that they can move heaven and earth, literally. So, it seems unlikely to me that he would make a political theater out of sort of monks whipping him and walking around like a beggar.

[01:02:25]That to me makes me think he probably was really sorry about it, but I'm not sure. What do you think?

[01:02:30]>> I think he was genuinely remorseful. I I because I mean look, if my actions led to the death of a childhood friend, even if we'd fallen out, even if I hated the guy's guts now, I'd be emotionally devastated by it. And I can imagine that Henry was there, too. But I ultimately kind of where I fall on it is I don't like whether Henry was subtly uh encouraging this assassination uh by the knights or not.

[01:03:05]I think ultimately his actions did lead to the death of Beckett. And I don't think that he can use the excuse of being hot-tempered or that he didn't mean it. I think ultimately whether Beckett intended I mean whether Henry intended for his words to be taken literally or not I think the end of the day um his actions did result in the death of Beckett. And I don't think that the king can take the argument of being hotheaded or that he didn't give a literal instruction as a fair uh argument because at the end of the day um there's going to be some knight who's going to take it literally who's dying for the favor of the king and he's going to go and kill him. And I really really feel like Henry should have known that. Um >> yeah, >> even if he like said, "Oh, well, won't someone do something about this um uh priest?" Well, not really. I'm just angry, you know? Like I just feel like there are so many things he could have done uh for this not to happen. But at the same time, I also do believe that he's remorseful and I think that he has terrible guilt about it.

[01:04:25]So yeah, whether or not he meant for it to happen or not, I think he feels guilty, but I still think he is guilty.

[01:04:33]>> Yeah, agreed. I I think as well, it's it's quite difficult to look into the historical record and find a king >> who's who's deliberately ordered in plain English something illegal or something scandalous.

[01:04:46]>> Yeah.

[01:04:46]>> I mean, he'd be remarkably stupid to do that. And Henry's got anger problems and he he he puts his trust in the wrong people sometimes, but he's not stupid.

[01:04:56]Um, and this is why he's constantly bickering with his sons because he's actually really good at what he does and he doesn't think they've got it. And again, it's I think I I think he's I think the thing about kings that we miss is there's two men under that crown.

[01:05:12]There's the one who has to sort of wear the crown and was born to wear it and there's the person um who's just like me and you. And I think you're right. I think whether or not it was intentional, the one with the crown on knew something had to be done about Thomas Becket, but the person underneath was devastated to have lost a friend.

[01:05:37]>> Man, that's such a good way of putting it. I got goosebumps when you said that.

[01:05:42]There you go, guys. Once again, Jake hits with the goosebumps. Only took an hour and 10 minutes to get there.

[01:05:50]>> Didn't we say this was going to be a short episode?

[01:05:53]>> We did. Anyway, guys, if you enjoyed this one, give us a like or subscribe or something like that. If you want to see more of Christian, let us know because it's been really fun talking to you, Chris.

[01:06:03]>> Yeah, thank you so much for having me on again. I really enjoy chatting with you about about history.

[01:06:09]>> Yeah, me too. Next time, if you like him, Chris is going to tell us all about the history of soda. Better be good.

[01:06:18]>> I hope so.

[01:06:20]>> I think so. No, no, it'll be good.

[01:06:22]Cheers, guys. Byebye.