I Challenge a Messianic Jew to Explain His Faith in Jesus

[00:00:00]Shalom everyone and welcome. We're here today with Moshe. Moshe is a German gentleman currently residing in Asia.

[00:00:10]And Moshe's life has led him to faith in the God of the Bible to God of the Torah, to the God of Israel. And Moshe calls himself a Messianic Jew, which means that the faith in Jesus is also incorporated into this larger picture.

[00:00:27]And the conversation of the Messianic Jews is very interesting to me because I've I've met more and more Messianic Jews as I've been doing this. And Messianic Jews are very committed to the Torah usually as I discover it. And um I think that that's very important. And usually Messianic Jews are not too um involved with the rabbis, although I know there are some Messianic Jews that practice kind of rabbitic tradition uh within Christianity as well. But my my main questions for Moshe today are just going to be regarding the Jesus question in general. While I don't feel any hostility toward Jesus, um although my Jewish in my Jewish upbringing, we were taught to be very hostile to Jesus. you can't even say his name. Um, you know, he's a very bad guy. I I've I've come to learn that Jesus is not a very bad guy.

[00:01:23]Um, and he actually did a lot of good in this world. But I do want to kind of just question you Moshe um on the matter of faith in Jesus to begin with which is as I see it I believe in the Torah and I see all the laws there uh illustrated very clearly and uh very well defined and God is telling us exactly what we need to do in order to find favor in his eyes. What is it about Jesus that you feel is necessary in order to complete your faith?

[00:01:58]>> Yeah, absolutely. That's that was also the main question that I thought about, you know. Um, so when I when I see Torah, I see that it has a purpose, a purpose that lies in the future.

[00:02:16]And this purpose has to be revealed. it it is to a degree revealed in the Torah itself. I mean actually the the final goal is revealed in the Torah but um there are some things that are in between also. So for example this this attitude of like Torah first of all Torah is the basis for everything for me also but I think I don't think it's um sufficient as a complete revelation of God you know I think there are some more steps that come afterwards so um I don't know I I would go through this uh document that I have here um to also answer this question a little more detailed um do you want me to like give you access to it or share it on the screen or whatever.

[00:03:08]>> Yeah, you could share the screen.

[00:03:11]>> If we go for example to the song of Moses there it says um you know for Yava's portion is his people. Jacob is the place of his inheritance of his inheritance.

[00:03:26]So um and this is sort of this idea is being repeated over and over again um like when he talks about the tabernacle uh I will dwell among the children of Israel and we will be their God you know so I see that that's ultimately what God wants you know and it was challenged several times um many times you know Then you know when when there was rebellion when there was sin among the Israelites then God sometimes said you know I can't stay here. Um and then also um the even the tabernacle was uh brought to the I mean not the tabernacle but at least the um the ark you know it was it was brought to even the Philistines you know it was it wasn't there with the Israelites so and that that was where God's presence was right >> well was wasn't it stolen by the Philistines Oh yeah, it was it was stolen. But I mean, God let it happen. God let it happen, right?

[00:04:42]>> Anyway, so um I I see that as a main purpose that God wants to be with actually with with everyone with every person and that's why he also then later on, you know, introduces the faith to um the Gentiles.

[00:04:59]I mean even even even from the early beginning uh in in Genesis we are um at least in Exodus we read about you know uh certain Gentiles coming into the faith.

[00:05:12]>> Well in Exodus we see the mixed multitude that goes up with >> That's right. That's right.

[00:05:17]>> Mhm. Yeah. Well, again, but here's the thing, and this is what I'd just like to ask you is that obviously we're historically speaking, we're on this path to achieve ultimate closeness to God. The question is, where does the Torah lack in terms of a laying out that as the fulfillment and b telling us how to get there? Because when I read the Torah, I see very clearly what the goal is. It's very clearly described throughout. The goal is that we should be obedient to God, that we should be in a a state of being of of heaven on earth as we see Deuteronomy 11 um speaks about heaven on earth. Uh I mean all the way back to the beginning in Genesis, we're placed in the garden of bliss and garden of Eden, right? So God clearly wants the best for us, but he tells us that if if we don't follow his commandments, then we end up falling off and we end up becoming cursed. So the goal is follow God's commandments, do what he wants, then you'll be blessed. And this is a return to God in action, in spirit, in heart and soul, body. Like all aspects of you need to come back into unison and harmony with God. And the way to get there is by following God's commandments. And that's like explicit in the Torah.

[00:06:40]>> Yes. I mean, I hope I totally agree with that. Um, and it's I I have this was this would be would have been like my second point here. Like in Deuteronomy 66, it says, "And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart." Right?

[00:06:55]>> So, um, I see that also as a as a hint towards the new covenant that you also already discussed with other people.

[00:07:03]>> Is it a hint or is it explicit?

[00:07:05]I mean, it's it's it's explicit. It's the same thing.

[00:07:09]>> Mhm.

[00:07:11]>> Yeah.

[00:07:11]>> Right. So then, in which case, I'll just reiterate like and and I'd have the same question for for Jews, by the way. So, like, you know, don't don't feel like you're singled out because in general, I just have this issue with people pretending that like there's something past the Torah that introduces something that the Torah hasn't already said.

[00:07:31]>> Cuz I have yet to find I read through Oh, I just I'll just finish. I've read through the entire Old Testament, New Testament, and I'm making my ways through the Quran. And I have not seen anything that I didn't know from reading the Torah. And the only things that were not in the Torah are things that I would say, "Yeah, like honestly, don't even follow that because it's not a very good idea." So, uh, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that like let's just read Deuteronomy 30:10 real quick, right? Um, so when you listen to the voice of Yahweh your God to guard his commandments and his decrees that are written in this book of the Torah. When you return to God, to Yahweh your God with all your heart and all your soul.

[00:08:11]So the return to God heart and soul, which is apparently the new covenant. I see it as just the covenant. This is the covenant. Um, the return to God heart and soul is part part and parcel of that is fulfilling the commandments and the decrees that are written in this book of the Torah. Right? And that is how you make your ways back to God. So >> yes, >> you know, again, it's like >> let's just say Jesus came to confirm that message.

[00:08:36]>> Is that something new?

[00:08:40]>> I mean I mean first of all I agree with that everything's contained in the Torah, the five books of Moses. But then um you know things let me let me uh add another thing like um and this I think this is important. You know, many people go wrong with that. For example, the prophets, the prophets that come came after Moses, they always um, you know, pointed back to the Torah. That was their job. It was to, you know, and then also to apply it, the Torah, to certain situations where, you know, the Israelites were and the place that they were at. Um so so because in in this in this path that I've been through you know there were some Christian pastors telling me you know uh for example about the tithe you know paying the tenth or no and in the Torah it's about an it's it's it's only about agriculture it's not about paying any money you know and and they were going to the book of Malachi and you know saying you you rob and you know there it says God says you know you robbed you know, you didn't pay tithe. And that's that they make that the basis of their doctrine, which I think is completely wrong.

[00:09:55]>> Well, additionally, additionally, the tithe is for a elected priesthood that God ordains specifically the priests from Le Levi and Aaron, right? Um, so, you know, to then just say, you know, I'm a self-appointed priest. I deserve your tithes. Uh, you know, there there's no obligation for that. I guess you can point to Abraham giving tithes to Malitedc, you know, but that's because Abraham recognized Malitedc as a true priest of God most high, right? Um, but that's not a the Torah obligation. First of all, something people don't know is that the the obligation is every two years you get to eat your own tithes.

[00:10:34]So, it's not even like you have to give it to anyone.

[00:10:36]>> Yeah. You eat it at the feast, right?

[00:10:38]>> Yeah. Right. You you make a feast at the place that God chooses. And you eat your own tithes and celebrate. And then every 3 years you give it to the Levite, to the stranger, and to the widow and the orphan that are in your cities. And you kind of just like unload all your storehouses and you give them all your tithes and you just help the people, right? Um so yeah, nothing about rabbis or priests in a church or a synagogue, right? That's that's an extrapolation for sure. Um yeah, and as you said, you know, it's it's more like foodbased than money. Um, but yeah, you know, that that's really what we're looking at.

[00:11:10]There is a there is a distortion here and and that's kind of what I'm I'm trying to point to because I I just I find it interesting like when when let's say what is how would you define your your faith in Jesus? Is it what do you believe exactly about him? Because everyone kind of has a different connection.

[00:11:26]>> Okay. Okay. Let's cut to the cheese.

[00:11:28]Yeah. Um, so I I believe his true name is Yeshua. Uh, you can find that in scripture. Um >> the Hebrew name. Yeah.

[00:11:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um like you know the angel says to Mary, you know, you shall name him this and that because he will save his people from sin, >> right?

[00:11:49]>> And then there's um another reference uh in in in in Zakaya, you know, speaking about the high priest Yeshua and the scene that is being described. It very much reflects what Yeshua um did what happened with him.

[00:12:10]>> Anyway, >> that have that source in Zahara.

[00:12:13]>> Uh Zakaya uh 31.

[00:12:19]>> Go ahead.

[00:12:20]>> Then he showed me Yeshua the high priest standing before the angel of Yhovah and and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. And Yhovah said to Satan, "Yah rebuke you, Satan. Yovah, who has cho chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you. Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"

[00:12:39]Now Yeshua was clothed with filthy garments and was standing before the angel. Then he answered and spoke to those who stood before him, saying, "Take away the filthy garments from him." So yeah, okay, I continue. And to him he said, "See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes."

[00:13:01]And I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head. And they put the clothes on him. And the angel of Yhovah stood by it. And the angel of Yhovah admonished Yeshua, saying, "Thus says Yhovah of hosts, if you walk in my ways, and if you will keep my command, then you shall also judge my house, and likewise have charge of my courts, and I will give you places to walk among these who stand here. Here, O Yeshua the high priest, you and your comp companions who sit before you, for they are wondrous sign, for behold, I'm bringing my servant the branch. For behold, the stone that I have laid before Yeshua upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription, says Yhovah.

[00:13:46]I'll remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

[00:13:49]>> Right. Yeah. So, I guess Joshua the high priest according to the Jews is referring to a historical figure that came back from Babylon, right, with the exile. But I mean, you reading this definitely has this uh, you know, prophetic interpretation and it, you know, I wouldn't uh, I wouldn't be surprised for a Christian to read this to be referring to Jesus.

[00:14:11]>> Do you see the references there? Like I mean the the things that resonate with like the purpose of Yeshua and the taking away of sin, him taking on sin of humanity >> like filthy garments, >> right?

[00:14:28]>> And then them take being taken away again.

[00:14:31]>> Yeah, I certainly see that symbolism.

[00:14:33]Yeah. Mhm.

[00:14:35]>> Um so yeah, again I I understand that concept. So, you're saying that uh to you Yeshua is someone who removes your your sin?

[00:14:46]>> Yeah, I think I think he's he's um he's the high priest, the ultimate high priest who uh is, you know, serving in our favor before God. Um I told you before I believe that you know Yhovah is God and Yeshua is the son of God and the anointed and actually also the king king of Jerusalem and um you know Mechedc the the king of righteousness um all these things and um I think for example when it comes to uh worshiping Jesus or yeah this is this is an interesting point also I believe he was revert or is he is also should be reverted as a king you know like the kings were revert in in the old testament and not as a god and there's a difference >> so I guess my question would be for you so obviously the Torah speaks about a a high priest providing atonement on the day of atonement through these ritualistic sacrifices and all that so the way you're expressing it is that you So Yeshua is functioning as this sort of cosmic divine high priest who is um causing a atonement sacrifice to be done uh in the the temple of heaven or something like that if I if I understand correctly. Right.

[00:16:15]>> Yeah. I mean if you if you go to the Torah again uh it says you know God says to Moses um make this um he's speaking about the tabernacle. make this according to the pattern that I showed you. Right?

[00:16:29]>> So, um there's a pattern to the tabernacle that was built on earth which must be somewhere else or it was just a vision. But I believe um >> Oh, yeah. That that's interpretive, right? Like you can read that as God showed Moses the design for the earthly tabernacle on the mountain, right?

[00:16:50]>> Yeah. So you you would say it's just a sort of a vision that God gave to Moses how to do it on earth, right?

[00:16:57]>> Yeah.

[00:16:57]>> But then but then if you if you look at the tabernacle, you know, you have uh Kerobim uh you know woven into the curtains and stuff, you know.

[00:17:07]>> Mhm.

[00:17:08]>> And of course the ark itself, you know, two uh Kobe, you know, with their with their wings and so on.

[00:17:16]>> So for me, it's a clear reference to heavenly things.

[00:17:20]And um yeah, and I mean then you then you go to the the temple that Solomon built and you see even more weird stuff.

[00:17:30]And also I I can't say that I can make sense of all of these things, you know, and what I what I really appreciate for example um concerning you that you go into into detail and I think if someone restricts himself very much to a certain part of po of of scripture like you like you say Torah is the very very important thing and I agree with that but you like restrict yourself a little more I would say than myself. Um then of course you have a very good knowledge you go into the details but I think um you know the problem that we face often times is that you know um that if we go too much into into the details we lose sight of the bigger picture and the the the context of things you know and the on the other hand you know this is maybe this is true for Jews and then the other thing is true for Christians maybe you know they um they always say, you know, Yeshua and stuff and he fulfilled everything, but they can't even say what what he fulfilled, you know, and so it's ridiculous just saying that, blurting that out, and not really knowing what what they're talking about.

[00:18:41]>> Mhm. So the the push back I would give you here is that even if we didn't go with my understanding that you know we just follow the Torah but the Torah does come first and the Torah describes the process that you need to go through in order to achieve the atonement and the return to God. And the Torah foresees a future when there will be no temple, there will be no high priest. there will be a complete dispersion of Israel throughout the world. And what is the prescription for return that the Torah mentions? Um Deuteronomy 4:29, seek God and you shall find him when you seek him with all your heart and all your soul. Deuteronomy 30, as we just read, verse two, return to God, you and your children, with all your heart and all your soul. Follow everything that's written in this book of the Torah.

[00:19:36]Where do you see anything about a sacrifice corban sacrifice of the son of God who needs to cleanse you of your sins? That's not placed as a prerequisite from the beginning where God is foretelling what's going to happen in exile. He's saying that your return to him is personal and internal and not requiring blood sacrifice of anyone or anything in order to achieve that. Not requiring some not requiring someone else to take on the burden of your sin, but rather requiring requiring you to take on the burden of your own sin, to take on the um the mission of actually pursuing the faith in God correctly. So, like, you know, that's not that's not even what what God tells us to do when we're at this point.

[00:20:29]>> I think I think it's both true. Um, and I think even, you know, Jesus talks about that when he talks about, you know, uh, carrying one's own cross, carrying one's own, you know, mwood, >> you know, >> um, which actually, um, you know, Isaac did, you know, he carried >> wood. Yeah.

[00:20:51]>> To the to to to the place where the sacrifice was supposed to be. And then you know he was you know about that story. I mean it's everyone knows about it. And then he was supposed to be sacrificed by his father. He had the instruction to do so. And he ultimately the the ram was sacrificed. Right? So there we have this transition from the human sacrifice to the animal sacrifice.

[00:21:19]Right?

[00:21:20]And then we have the animal sacrifices during the what the the law of Moses um you know gave to the Israelites what they were supposed to do. And I think there was later to be a different transition again where you know then the animal sacrifice would be fulfilled with the ultimate sacrifice.

[00:21:42]And by the way, when you when you talk about you said about G Jesus like being this cosmic whatever savior.

[00:21:52]Um I don't know what what leads you to these um associations or understanding.

[00:22:02]Maybe you can you can tell me a little bit about what you see in him in Yeshua because that seems a bit odd to me. But >> well that's what you described. You described him as being the high priest of heaven, right? So that's >> that's not a earthly being. It's a cosmic being, something that is beyond the earth, right? Something that's beyond this realm. Like the high priest in the Torah is described as just, you know, Aaron and his sons. Um, but you're you're describing a a a high priest that is not of this earth, right? Um, and so that's that's what I'm that's what I meant. Uh, and I was just trying to understand your point, um, of what you were describing in terms of a a a high priest that atones for all of humanity with his own blood, right? That's a completely new concept. Um, you know, again, and even then, are you are you suggesting that human sacrifice is the ultimate form of sacrifice?

[00:23:05]>> Uh, say it again, please, the last sentence. Well, you said we transitioned from human sacrifice to animal sacrifice at the time of Isaac and then animal sacrifice was completed with the sacrifice of Jesus. Um, are you suggesting that human sacrifice is the ultimate form of sacrifice?

[00:23:24]>> Yeah. I mean, um, this is this is this is something that Yeshua says in the Gospel of John, like there's no greater love than if someone gives his life for his friends. Yeah.

[00:23:37]Okay. Is that >> great?

[00:23:38]>> Is that something like what what do you mean? Is that something you're we're encouraged to to sacrifice ourselves?

[00:23:47]>> Um you know about martyrs, right? I mean not in Islam, but um there were there are people who died for their faith.

[00:23:55]>> Yeah. But the Torah says to to live by the faith. And God says a blessed life looks like a long life on earth with many children and great love and and goodness in this life. I don't think God created us to die. He created us to live.

[00:24:12]>> Yes. I I I totally agree with that. Yes.

[00:24:15]But um I think there comes a point and I you you find it in in Jewish history also. People died for their faith, right? Without believing in Jesus. they um you know they wanted to stay true to their faith to God and at some point there was no other way than to sacrifice their lives you know for this um conviction and to stay true not to you know deny God not to deny the commandments all these things you know >> yeah I'd say at some point you know if you wouldn't die for anything then you probably wouldn't live for anything.

[00:24:55]There certainly is a a point at which you're willing to lay down your life for the things that matter the most. Um, but I wouldn't present that as some form of an ideal, especially not following through with it. As in the whole message of the binding of Isaac is God wanted to see that Abraham was willing to do it, but he didn't actually want him to do it.

[00:25:16]>> Right. So, the willingness to do something versus actually doing it are two different things.

[00:25:22]>> Yes.

[00:25:24]Um, let's maybe let's go there and see what it really says. Um, >> also I just wanted to point out there there were animal sacrifices before the binding of Isaac because Abel uh, you know, Cain and Abel, Abel was bringing animal sacrifices to God and and Noah was bringing >> animal sacrifice to God and Abraham. And then in Genesis 22:16, it says, "By myself I have sworn, says Yhovah, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only blessing, I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed, all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because you have obeyed my voice."

[00:26:16]So um this is this is interesting like for me to me uh for example because here it says in 2218 um you have obeyed my voice in another place um it says that you know Abraham um kept my ordinances and commandments I think right?

[00:26:35]>> Mhm. But here is the the obeying uh is referring to something more than the the commandments, you know, it's referring to a different act.

[00:26:47]>> Well, yeah, it was this particular but well I mean you can read it as a general thing that Abraham always listened to God's voice. When God told him to leave his father's house and go to the unknown with God, Abraham listened. Um when God told him that he was going to have a son, he listened. when God told him to sacrifice that son, he listened. Right?

[00:27:07]So Abraham demonstrates immense faith.

[00:27:10]But I do think the takeaway would be that it's a good thing that he was not that Isaac was not sacrificed because Isaac was able to live on and he had children and his life flourished. Right.

[00:27:23]So >> absolutely. Yeah.

[00:27:25]>> Yeah. Yes. So, I don't think the takeaway from the story would be, you know, like the the the ultimate sacrifice would be just dying, right? And like that that would be great. Like if if God sent his son to the earth to to die, um you know, like is is that really such a good thing?

[00:27:45]>> Um no, of course. Uh if possible, we we want to avoid death, you know, as as as much as we can. So, so my question is where where does the Torah state that a a human sacrifice is required in order for us to return to God?

[00:28:04]>> Yeah, I think I think here here it's speaking about that because here it says like and first of all um speaking about Abraham. So I want to point out that Abraham he he had a very close relation with God. you know, he heard his voice and he followed him, you know, in everything that he said to him. And um so it's not only like written commandments that you later on have, you know, for the people of Israel, but it's, you know, following so to say a Torah that is directly spoken.

[00:28:39]And um I think this is something that, you know, in Judaism it was lost. Uh most people they don't have that connection anymore, you know.

[00:28:50]>> And um >> I don't think anyone has Abraham's connection, you know. He he was he was uh had a pretty direct line.

[00:28:59]>> Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I have had experiences of that also that God gave me direct instruction in places where I was in a in a very difficult you know place. Um I was being attacked. I you know it was for my good that God gave that. Then at another point he gave me some things that were important for other people. Not I I can't say it was important for the whole world but he gave me something that was important for people that I knew and it was for the purpose of salvation for you know for their good. So um I had that experiences and over now now I don't have it at the moment. I can't say that I have it at the moment, but at that time I had it for a period of I don't know maybe a year or so.

[00:29:50]>> Yeah. And and by the way, I agree with you. I think that the kind of spirituality where everyone tries to get close to God on a personal level is definitely lacking from the Jewish people. I think you know they the rabbis basically proclaimed that prophecy is finished on the basis of nothing. Um, and then they went ahead to say, "But you know, you got to come to us cuz the Talmud says, "A wise rabbi is greater than a prophet." And so basically, everyone just goes to their rabbis and they never attempt to actually gain a personal connection with God. U, so it's it's certainly bad. And I'm I'm not undermining your personal relationship with God. At the same time, when we look at the Torah and the revelation that God gave to Moses, you right. So like the explicit instructions that God gives to Moses for Israel for all time is telling us what we need to do for all future generations calling out a future that didn't even happen at that point of a dispersion of an exile of us being lost and cursed and all these things. And what are we told to do? Seek God with all your heart and all your soul. Return to God with all your heart and all your soul. you, you and your children, you and your life, you right. Um, even Deuteronomy 30 also says it's in your mouth and in your heart. Right. So to your point, these are things that are inherent within us. And I'm just asking again like where in this in this vision for a future return to God, are we told and also you need the human sacrifice of my son who will carry all your sins and that's also super necessary. I just forgot to mention it. Like what what's where is that uh in in the vision for a return to God? Where does God state that that's necessary?

[00:31:38]>> Yeah. I think I think in the Torah itself like you know you have these you have these feasts the right >> and and then you have um first of all at at every feast there there are sacrifices you know that that were supposed to be >> sacrificed. And then you have the the day of atonement.

[00:31:57]Yum yum kipur and um you know it's about you know taking away the sin and I think the I mean this this okay I just I just tell you what I believe okay so I believe the the um the the the year the year you know the the annual circle of the feast represents a plan that God had has with humanity. Okay, there's Pesak at the beginning like you know Israel coming out of out of Egypt and and starting this relation with God also it starts with a sacrifice and with one lamb you know for every household and so on and um then there are different feasts and ultimately you know there's the feast of tabernacle tabernacles where you know to me it means that you know everything is being restored you know there's fullness is there's a harvest of good things.

[00:32:55]There's joy. You know, God says, it's the only feast where God says you you shall be joyful and and you know, you're even supposed to drink.

[00:33:06]uh you you can drink you know and um so this is this is as I said before I think this is the ultimate goal you know everyone's happy you know and the prophets say about speak about that you know the the toddler will play at the at the hole of the otter and so on and um so I think this is a theme and in between these two extremes you know coming out of slavery bondage being oppressed by foreign people to this ultimate, you know, wow, this is it. This is awesome. And, you know, we're so happy that, you know, and there are certain steps in between.

[00:33:49]And um so the the the thing that comes before the ultimate you know redemption I don't I don't say that Yeshua and Yeshua's sacrifice is everything that there is to redemption but it's an important steps and step and it comes just before the ultimate wow this is it and um so we have the yam kipur right on the 10th day of the seventh month >> and Um, that's the last thing. And um, the I mean the the you have it yearly. You have it yearly, but it's not really the thing that takes it away forever. But then after that, you have the feast of tabernacles and there is no mention of any anything negative anymore. It's only good, >> you know. And I don't think, you know, God, you know, wants us to, you know, stay in this circle that every year we have to confess our sins. They have to be wiped out, you know, from taken away from the from the tabernacle and so on.

[00:34:58]But he wants the ultimate thing. And this is something that I mean, if if we go back to what I said in the beginning, you know, God wants his Torah to be in our hearts.

[00:35:11]If it's there only for one day and then we start sinning again, we accumulate sins again until we come to Yamipur again. It's not it's not it's not satisfying at all.

[00:35:22]Mhm.

[00:35:25]Well, again, I mean, it is a metaphorical interpretation that you're providing. And at the same time, it does say in the Torah that the the uh process of the yum kipur, the day of atonement offerings are actually an eternal decree. We have here Leviticus 16:28 uh or rather Leviticus 16:29.

[00:35:52]It shall be for you as an eternal decree on the 10th of the seventh month uh you should afflict your souls and this shall be performed by the high priest. So this entire ritual so this is a a particular ritualistic process that needs to be done the whole Leviticus 16 goes through this whole process um in order to be doing this particular thing. So, you know, it's clearly not something that comes to an end. If it's an eternal decree, then this is something that's required for eternity.

[00:36:28]>> Yeah. Um, so let's have a look at it.

[00:36:31]Um, um, so I interpret it, I mean, with my very limited knowledge of Hebrew. So, and then now I look at the outline of biblical usage here. you know, it says here long duration, you know, world. So I I interpret it to be like um a um so for example in Judaism you have this expression you you know uh haba right?

[00:37:06]>> Mhm.

[00:37:07]>> The world to come and and it's I mean maybe you know it better. What kind of world is it referring to?

[00:37:16]Yeah. They're basically suggesting that there's going to be another world. Is that what you're saying? It's a new world.

[00:37:22]>> Yeah. Yeah. I think they they and they come to that conclusion because of, for example, Isaiah and and other prophets talking about that, right?

[00:37:30]>> Yeah. God will make a new a new sky, a new earth, right? Oh, Jesus says, "Till heaven and earth pass away." Right. Um but yeah, again, like let's just talk about the reality of the term forever.

[00:37:43]Uh yeah, unless like forever falls apart. Um the term liam does mean forever. So I guess you're interpreting it like till the end of this world, till the end of of times >> age. Yeah, I I would interpret it is it as age, a certain age. Like for example, also Paul in the New Testament, he's he's uh speaking of of this current evil age that we're living in.

[00:38:07]>> Yeah.

[00:38:08]>> So um that's I think that's what it's referring to. And um again I uh you know when Yeshua speaks about you know until heaven and earth pass away you know I think um um yeah um what can I say about that?

[00:38:27]It's uh I think these these these things I mean for me it's so obvious that there has to be a fulfillment you know and and Jesus says you know until all things that there's not one jot or one tit supposed to fall away from the Torah until everything is being fulfilled has been fulfilled. Yeah. So, and I think that that's my faith, you know. I came I came to faith, you know, uh I grew up as an atheist and um um I think the first thing that I read in the Bible were the gospels. Yeah. And I I perceived it to be true and um Yeah. So, that's I have a different starting point than you.

[00:39:09]>> Mhm.

[00:39:11]>> Right. Well, again, I I would just push back on that a little bit. the idea of of Leolam just being for an age.

[00:39:20]Although I I think I understand your interpretation, at the same time, God speaks of his eternal covenants and his eternal decrees and it definitely does imply forever.

[00:39:34]>> Yeah. Okay. But I mean just this expression haba Yeah. It it says very clearly that >> Yeah. I don't really buy that expression. That's not a Torah expression. It's a more of a Jewish common way of speaking. But I don't >> um but there you you have yeah you have in the Tanakh you have at least the expression you know uh in the world that I will um that I will make I think it's Isaiah 66 or so um you know um it speaks about you know um people when when they die at at a young age it will be um they will be called cursed and so on and that you know things will will have radically changed you No. Um >> but I mean that says that in the Torah though. Torah says that um you know if you follow God's commandments then you will receive a long life and there won't be >> Yes. But there in in the prophets >> in the prophets God is speaking specifically about the world that he is going to make. not something that already exists, but the world that >> and then >> but but that's so bizarre to me. It's like it's almost like it's a different language than the Torah because the Torah doesn't speak about other worlds or or other states of being other than this earth and this life. And the Torah is providing us a prescription for return in this world and in this life and for how to achieve realization and actualization as human beings in this life in this body. It doesn't require death and resurrection. Doesn't require any of these things. It requires obedience in this in this moment. It requires fulfillment of the commandments to the best of your ability in the here and now. And that's the only prescription we're given for salvation in the Torah. So you know this whole idea again like even yes this is what Christians use you know or messianic Jews saying well the concept of of animal sacrifice is introduced in the Torah okay but it's it's introduced in particular scenarios as in you know if you sin and there is a temple and there is a priesthood and then you bring a lamb and and this is the sacrifice but as far as describing the return to God on a on a personal level in a state exile. It doesn't say perform animal sacrifice. It doesn't say perform human sacrifice, God forbid. It says per perform uh circumcision of the heart where you actually return to God heart and soul and you begin to re embrace the commandments that you have rejected for so long. And and it's it's entirely based off of that. And so, you know, this this whole idea of the new world and the new life and and um you know, some qual something so qualitatively different than what we know right now um as the end goal. Whereas in the Torah, heaven on earth is a situation where people are living in harmony and fulfillment in health and and wealth and prosperity under the laws of God. And and it doesn't require some radical shift of consciousness or creation like we see in some of these more apocalyptic books later on in the Bible.

[00:42:52]Yes. But um you know the to I mean what do you understand as Torah? Is it the commandments given by Moses or is it the revelation that was given through Moses?

[00:43:01]Because Moses said, you know, um there will first of all there will be a prophet like me, but then also concerning prophets, you know, that we we were supposed we are supposed to listen to the prophets, you know, and they they came afterward. They they you know, they they had these revelations from God and they are compiled in the Tanakh um the Naveen. And so that's part of the Torah. If you say, you know, I follow Torah, but I just don't >> it's not the Torah. No, it's not. There there is a there is clearly a marked difference between the five books of Moses and the rest of the Bible. The five books of Moses are are the law. And that is what's revealed to Moses in in a manner that's unlike any other prophet.

[00:43:49]Even as we can see in the book of numbers, God lectures the brother and sister of Moses um telling them other prophets receive visions, riddles. Moses is trusted in my entire household like a son, right? And is actually God speaks face to face with him, right? And so when we look at that revelation, we we see the expectations that are put in place. Um you know, so I think there there is definitely a difference. And when we talk about the law of Moses, even in the prophets, it's identified as Torah to Moshe, the law of Moses. So it's particularly the revelation and the law that comes through Moses is what we are commanded to follow as law. Now, yes, it does say in the law of Moses that there will be a prophet like Moses.

[00:44:37]Um, but again, unclear who that prophet like Moses is. And even if there are other prophets, it it strikes me as strange that if they're speaking in the same vein as Moses, why does their speech sound so different? Why does their um future vision so disconnected from the Torah when the Torah doesn't describe any of these things? Like again, it's almost like things get more and more disconnected for Moses the further we get from the once we start Joshua already things start to peter off. like Joshua is pretty close to Moses and then things like get more and more distant.

[00:45:17]You know, Samuel's pretty close, but then like we get to Isaiah and Jeremiah and things like start changing even more and then when you get to the New Testament, it's like all bets are off.

[00:45:25]So, I'm you know, I'm just I'm just confused like how how we're supposed to um draw a a a line between all these things when there genuinely are. It's like a it's a different uh spirit speaking in some sense.

[00:45:42]I I don't think it's a different spirit, but I can see uh what you're talking about and I and I I'm very happy about you that you have this um you know this attitude because what we have and why we have such a mess in Christianity today and also even also in the messianic movement is because people they you know they just buy everything that is presented to them and they don't go you know minute how do you say in English like in very in a very detailed way, you know, they don't prove things. They just buy what's being presented to them and they are not looking for the connection between, you know, the first book and the last book of of the Bible and so on.

[00:46:23]And it's very complex. I admit that it's very complex and it's not easy to see all the connections there. Uh for example, the statement, you know, this about the son of God, you know, in the New Testament, you know, there's Jesus is coming there and then, yeah, he's the son of God. But why is that? Where is that ever, you know, spoken of in the Old Testament? I think most most Christians can't point that out, but there are places where it's pointed out.

[00:46:49]>> Well, you have like Proverbs, right?

[00:46:51]Solomon says, "Who knows him and the name of his son or something, right?"

[00:46:55]Um, I mean, you have the sons of God, chapter 6 of Genesis, but those don't seem to be such good sons of God, right?

[00:47:01]So, um, you know, but yeah, the book of Job, you have the sons of God. Um but yeah, for for sure the the concept of sons of God could exist, but then you know the the Christian theology is basically presenting Jesus as the only begotten son kind of like to mirror the Isaac story, right? Whereas like Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his only begotten son even though Isaac was not actually his only begotten son but he was so belove beloved and the one who was representing Abraham to such an extent it was as if it was his only son and you know he's told to sacrifice his only son. So you know they're basically playing that out in a cosmic sense in a god sense that God is sacrificing his only son um you know for for the sake of humanity.

[00:47:48]>> Yeah. And the interesting thing is there like this son only came into existence because God made it happen, right?

[00:47:56]>> It wasn't with human effort. It wasn't able it wasn't possible to have that son. God God gave that son.

[00:48:03]>> Yeah.

[00:48:04]>> In a supernatural way.

[00:48:05]>> In this sense, I I'm obviously more gratified because, you know, I find the trinitarian philosophy to be just upsetting. Like I wouldn't even say it's I wouldn't even say it's blasphemy. I would just say it's bad theology. Like why why why don't you just why can't you stick with one? Why can't you stick with Yahweh?

[00:48:25]Right? Like clearly even in the New Testament that this the differentiation is made so clearly like Jesus is like I'm going back to my father and my God who sent me. I am beholden to him and his commands and I'm doing what he tells me. Right. Even like what they want to bring from Daniel, the ancient of days >> seats the son of man next to him.

[00:48:47]>> Yes. Right. So the differentiation very clear. Yeah. So you know there's a differentiation and by definition the son is something that's begotten of the father. So it's not the father himself and it comes after. So that seems like pretty obvious. And then it's more like church um churchianity as I've heard it called by messianics. You know trying trying to um >> square the the trinity even though the trinity is not even biblical even in the New Testament. Um you know. So >> yeah, I mean even even Paul, I'm sorry, just one more thing. Even Paul says, you know, in the name in the name of the father God and the son Jesus Christ, the Lord Jesus Christ, right? So he's like separating between God and Jesus Christ, >> right? Yeah, that's right. And um I mean I think it's it's important to look at history, you know, how violently this doctrine was, you know, brought into um I don't I don't I can't even say the faith because I think it's no longer the faith, the original faith. It's something different. For example, if you go to um you know Yeshua um there's there's a tiny conversation between Yeshua and the so-called Peter, right?

[00:49:58]Keas >> um where, you know, the people say certain things about Yeshua, you know, like he's the prophet and so on, and then he asks him, "Who do you think I am?" And he replies, "You're the son of the living God, um, the Messiah." Right? And and he gives complete confirmation to that. He says, "This hasn't been revealed by flesh and blood to you, but by my father in heaven." And also he says you know upon this rock I will build my ecclesia, my congregation, my you know and and so this was supposed to be the foundation of the faith but they took that foundation away by uh very violently you know and putting something else there. And if you go to the New Testament, for example, there speaks about um an so-called antichrist who is going to sit himself in the temple of God and proclaim himself to be God, right? So, it's fulfilling the exact picture that they're painting with their false false doctrine, >> right? Yeah. And I mean, in the book of Acts, it explicitly says God raised Jesus from the dead. So, >> yeah, >> again, creating that differentiation.

[00:51:18]But yeah, either way, we understand that it says God told Moses, "You cannot see my face and live, right?" So if Jesus is God, then everyone who saw him should have died.

[00:51:29]>> Yeah. And God can't die, you know. It's also ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. I had a I had a conversation with a PhD in uh biblical languages. Uh I actually I lived with him for some time and um like like in the in in our conversations this thing came up you know God died on the cross for us and and I said this is the most ridiculous thing that I've ever heard. It's so ridiculous. how how can people stick with that and and always blurt it out. And um so I I think you know with this um what Constantine did with the um you know uh in in about 400 you know uh establishing Christianity as a as a state religion and um nailing down certain doctrines.

[00:52:19]Um he introduced a lot of pagan things into the faith and also this concept sort of which they have in in in pagan religion that there are different gods like whatever tamuz and and uh you know all sorts of and they are often trinit trinities. Right.

[00:52:38]>> Right. Yeah. And you know so again like the reason why I say it's it's not necessarily blasphemy is because like they insist this is the god of Israel and it's one god. This is God of Israel.

[00:52:48]same god, one god. Right? So they're they're trying to maintain that it's one god and it's the same god, but then they start presenting the number three when that god actually presents the number one. And so it's like the going number has to be one. And like the trinity is it's an inconvenience to you. And and at at worst it's blasphemy. At best it's just you know fracturing your mind when God is explicitly telling you keep one.

[00:53:16]Like one is the number, right? Right.

[00:53:17]And so you're pretending to know how to break up God because >> oh like three men came to Abraham or um you know there's different different aspects of Yahweh. So now like yeah obviously Yahweh is Elohim. Elohim is a plural word right? There's >> the spirit of anger, there's the spirit of truth, there's the spirit spirit of of love, there's fire, there's I mean all these different things associated with God. uh you know it would be foolish for us to even pretend that we had a number other than one.

[00:53:49]>> Yeah. Which Yeah, that's right. I agree with that. But um you know something especially when you um concentrate on Torah so much. Something to consider I think is that you know God says to um the Israelites you know I sent my messenger before you you know my Malik right >> my angel and um my name is in him it's an interesting you know thing that he says and he will not tolerate your sins also right and and you shall fear him you know and so um there's this aspect again of the a representative of God, you know, being very close to the people of Israel, leading them and doing something that God himself, I mean, God is in heaven, you know, that's affirmed very many times, but then he's doing something with the Israelites here on earth, and he's sending someone to be there, right, with them, you know.

[00:54:47]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, that's an angel, right?

[00:54:52]>> Angel means messenger.

[00:54:54]>> Yeah. And the and you have also Michael, you know, Mikail means who's like God, right?

[00:55:00]>> Mhm.

[00:55:01]>> So, um, and I think this is something that you can't say of every angel. It's something special that Yhovah's name is in him and that he's like God. And this thing is often also u misused like being like God also like um I heard this I think even in in your uh podcast or like Gordon or so um like they often say this you know uh Jesus is God in the flesh. I don't I don't agree with that at all.

[00:55:32]The New Testament says um uh God revealed in the flesh. Okay, that's a very different thing. Like if you have the real thing here and then then you have a revelation somewhere else or you have the real thing here and you have an image of that somewhere else, it's not the same thing.

[00:55:54]>> Yeah. It's like if if if a angel or a human being perfectly represented God's attributes or you know the the spirit of God even Isaiah talks about like you know the Messiah will be someone who the spirit of God rests on him, right?

[00:56:11]>> Yes. Exactly.

[00:56:12]>> Right.

[00:56:12]>> Yes. And and the different and then again the difference between Moses I mean Moses he wasn't flawless. He was there was no other man as compassionate as him or as slow to anger as him. But um you know he he sinned. He sinned right?

[00:56:31]That's why he didn't get to the promised land. And um there's there's a difference there. And and once once more I want to emphasize, you know, the Torah says explicitly like um that there's going to come this prophet and uh God is going to require it from him, you know, it whatever it is if they don't listen to him, you know.

[00:56:56]>> So what does that prophet say that you have to listen to?

[00:57:04]Like are you suggesting that's Jesus?

[00:57:07]>> I think that's Yeshua. Yeah.

[00:57:09]>> And what does he say that Moses doesn't say?

[00:57:13]>> I mean I think I think he brings the Torah to um a fullness that you don't have yet with Moses with only the revelation.

[00:57:25]>> So for example um I mean you know the the sermon on the mount so-called sermon on the mount.

[00:57:31]>> Yeah. He's interpreting uh the Torah um or he's explaining the Torah in a way that isn't explicit in in the Tanakh, you know. Um he says that adultery is even, you know, looking at a woman and lusting after her. Um kill murdering is, you know, when you have uh unjustified anger against your whatever neighbor.

[00:57:57]Um it's things that you know I wouldn't have come up with without him telling me that.

[00:58:04]>> Well, you know, I mean it's it's uh adultery and murder without any external penalty. I think that you know if there is a merit to that statement at all. The point is that it's not enough just to be righteous in action. You have to be righteous in your heart. And if your heart is not with God and you're walking around having murderous, adulterous thoughts all day, but you just don't act on it, which by the way, the Torah says do not covet. So that's the 10th commandment. So that's already covered in the 10th commandment. Um, but yeah, obviously the inner and the outer have to reflect each other. But I would point to the fact that the Torah already explicitly says that when it says return to God heart and soul. What does it mean to have your heart in alignment with God? It means that you don't even you don't even allow your heart to have thoughts against God because you want you want to be wholesome with God internally as well as externally. And you know again just just to call back to what the Torah describes as the redemption process. It doesn't require a sacrifice other than your own sacrifice to uh return to God. Like that in of itself is a sacrificial act, right?

[00:59:18]You're you're sacrificing your hedonistic desires. You're sacrificing being accepted by the rest of society.

[00:59:25]You're sacrificing your time. You're sacrificing a lot. And anyone who's Torah observant knows that they're sacrificing a lot to do that, right? Um but it's not necessarily a animal sacrifice or a sacrifice of a of a God man on the cross. um it's it's it's your own self-sacrifice, but beyond the term sacrifice, it's it's the atonement process and the returning to God, you and your children. So again, implying that you need to be living out this life, having children, being fruitful, and following God's vision for humanity, to be integrated with life, and to follow the commandments, both external and internal. That's why Deuteronomy 30 is talking about following all the commandments and returning to God heart and soul. And so it's covering both internal and external return to God, faith and acts, right? Which is like this big debate. Is it just the faith?

[01:00:17]Is it just the acts? Right? It's it's both, right? And and it's it's this uh necessary uh return to God. And again, it's not describing anything anything else. So So that's kind of what I'm saying like is it's not bringing anything new to the table.

[01:00:35]And what it does bring new to the table, it's kind of like, well, what's the basis for that? What's the basis for for these new ideas, for these new requirements that were not stated in the original vision presented by Yahweh to the children of Israel, saying, "This is what's going to happen in some future time when God conceals his face from you and he forsakes you." Like, what is it going to take for God to take you back?

[01:01:00]>> I think uh one thing that you said here is uh the atonement process. You mentioned that in the last thing that you said and what what is it really to you? What does it mean to you?

[01:01:11]>> Atonement.

[01:01:12]>> Yeah. Well, the the atonement even just using the Hebrew word of kipur means to cover over and to pretty much cover for your sin. And I think ultimately only God can grant you the the forgiveness that you need. But what you need to do on your end in order to achieve that forgiveness is to again return to God as it is described in the Torah. And that is what's required from us. Nothing else is required from us. So that's again where I ask where does this idea of the the sacrifice come from the necessity for that sacrifice?

[01:01:47]>> Yeah. So the the the it's very good that you bring that up like the kapor the the covering of of the sin. I mean, if you think of the Mosaic system, uh, an animal covering the sin of a human, it's not really enough, right? It's not equal. Human is different from a from an animal, >> right? Well, I think we'd all agree that if if a person uh sacrificed a sheep for his sin and then went on his merry way sinning more, that wouldn't do much for him, right? You know the the animal sacrifice is only an aspect of the the law.

[01:02:25]>> Yes. And the covering it's not completely removing. So the ultimate thing that you want to go for and me too is like removing it and especially removing it from the heart which is an interesting thing also because um during the day of atonement blood was being sprinkled uh against the ark right the ark of the covenant. And you know God says you this Toras shall be in your heart where um you know it's sort of I mean I see the imagery here that the ark is actually representing our hearts at least one it's one application you know where the Torah is supposed to be and if it's being broken then there has to be this this this breaking of the of the commandments has to be covered but the ultimate thing is to really have it there. No longer go stray from it. And that's that's what the ultimate thing is that God wants to achieve.

[01:03:26]Um yeah. So I mean also in the story of um um Moses breaking the tablets when he came from the mountain, you know, they were they were going astray and he broke the the tablets, right? and he went a second time on the on the mountain and had other tablets then that he brought to the people. To me, it's also an illusion to a new covenant. Right. It doesn't mean that and khadash, you know, it's uh khadash it's um how do you say moon in Hebrew?

[01:04:03]Right.

[01:04:03]>> Yeah.

[01:04:04]>> Is it is it new moon, right?

[01:04:05]>> Month.

[01:04:06]>> New moon also. Yeah. Month and new moon, right?

[01:04:10]And so um there's an illusion there like it's not it's not something completely different because the kadesh we have every every new month it's it's it's just >> so it's in my faith it's the same commandments that were given to Moses now you know given in a different way and us having a different relation to the law than we had before. It's not different commandments. It's the same law. But with Yeshua, I believe there's a fuller application. In the in the in the New Testament, it says the law has only a shadow of things to come, but the Messiah has the body. So I believe that you know to be true in the sense that the shadow is a two-dimensional representation of the real object and um so the object itself has a third dimension to it and I think this is what Yeshua gave when he you know sort of explained the the um commandments in a deeper meaning not giving different commandments and in this and this is something that I also wrote down here while he was speaking um there we have a clear uh you know competition between Jesus, Yeshua, and the rabbis giving like um the interpretation of the Torah because what we have in in uh Orthodox Judaism like they say you can't really keep the commandments, you have to have someone explain them to you, right?

[01:05:39]>> And um I mean Yeshua is providing this application. He's giving it this sort of mindset. Oh yeah, that it's not just the letter, but there's a deeper meaning behind it and you're supposed to apply that meaning. Not not only of course you you're supposed to keep the commandment to the letter, but also it goes beyond that. So I mean for me it's so evident.

[01:06:01]For example, there are so many things that you can do out of love. You can do good deeds and they are not written down in the Torah, right? So God by giving the Torah, of course he wants us to keep these things, but he also wants to go us further and you know understand his mind and his you know um his thinking and his you know worldview and act out of that.

[01:06:28]>> Mhm.

[01:06:29]>> Right.

[01:06:30]>> So you're saying that Jesus is the embodiment of the the Torah?

[01:06:36]>> Absolutely. That's that's what you know this phrase you know the word became flesh >> um is about.

[01:06:44]>> Yeah.

[01:06:45]>> But okay. You don't think Abraham was a good embodiment?

[01:06:50]>> Not flawless.

[01:06:51]Certainly not flawless.

[01:06:53]>> Why what was Abraham's flaw?

[01:06:57]Um I think in this uh story with Sarah um it speaks about for example Abraham also I mean first of all that he took um the um you know the the the servant of you know as a wife >> it's not it's not >> it's forbidden >> the the Torah um you know the Torah that was given through Moses it it allows this but if you go and this now this here we have again this this aspect of the fullness of the Torah which comes through Yeshua. Like when Yeshua speaks about marriage, he says that yes, Moses allowed you to um divorce your wife because of the hardness of your hearts, but from the beginning it wasn't so. So he's pointing back to Genesis, you know, first Adam and first, you know, woman, Kava, >> you know, only one man, one woman. And this is the ideal which was before the fall.

[01:07:56]>> Was Jesus even married? Did Jesus have children?

[01:08:00]>> No. I mean, as far as we know, not. But maybe he was, >> right? I mean, that that would seemingly be a pretty big flaw. Also, what's interesting about the the patriarchs is that they receive a long life and great blessing in this world, which is tied to being favored by God. Um and in addition to that in addition to that in Isaiah 53 which is often brought as a proof um for you know Jesus the end of the chapter says that the person who is willing right to place himself as the sacrifice will ultimately live a long life and see their offspring right which is interesting it's kind of like again the Abraham and Isaac willing to sacrifice yet God does not actually make you make that sacrif sacrifice. He saves you and gives you the ability to live out a long life and see your offspring, which didn't happen with Jesus.

[01:09:02]>> Yeah. I mean, >> there there are there are other people um that, you know, maybe even are also representation of Yeshua. um you know uh you know is mentioned in the in Genesis you know he was translated was with was wasn't found anymore.

[01:09:22]>> Well he lived pretty long and had many children before.

[01:09:26]>> Yes. But so you you you you say um it's sort of a flaw or a sin of Yeshua that he supposedly didn't have any children.

[01:09:35]Well, yeah, it's certainly a flaw in if if you want to talk about a flaw in a character arc. Um, I mean, yeah, he was murdered, so, you know, that doesn't help. But, you know, if you we talk about like what it means to be blessed by God and the archetype of a blessed godly man, that includes marriage, children, and a long life. I mean, that's part and parcel even of the commandments. You want to talk about what was at the beginning, God creating man and woman, telling them to be fruitful and multiply, cling to your woman, become one flesh. Um, right.

[01:10:08]That's right at the heart of creation and God's vision for mankind.

[01:10:14]>> Yeah. But I mean, I think you see through throughout Tanakh, you see prophets of God, men of God, you know, uh, where there's nothing said about them being married and them um, you know, still being very favored by God. U for example Elijah being he was translated also he wasn't found anymore uh he went up to heaven >> right but but here here's the thing like it sounds like there's two there's two conversations going on here which is first of all like which Bible character do you love the most right and so you know the question is like which biblical figure do you feel embodied God's vision the most and you know for me it would it would be Abraham Isaac Jacob Joseph, Moses. Like for me, those characters just are towering in terms of like if you, let's say, put them all together, you're looking at the completion of a godly man, right? I have respect for other biblical figures, including Jesus. But for me, when I think of like what I want, what I want out of living a godly life, obviously, you don't get to choose these things.

[01:11:21]That's why I said like, you know, Jesus was murdered. So there needs to be a place for people that are brutally unjustly murdered. Um but ultimately like Moses walks in and out of Pharaoh's house untouched. How?

[01:11:35]>> Right? Like Pharaoh's the king of Egypt.

[01:11:37]He's enslaving an entire nation. You don't think he can get rid of this one annoying guy who keeps coming to his palace. But clearly Moses was acting with unparalleled level of God's protection. Abraham manages to win a whole war against four or five kings using 318 of his trained young men like you know and he's an old man at that point right so clearly we're we're we're dealing with people who are supernatural and who are extreme in the extreme good graces of God um and again you know Abraham didn't sin uh by taking another wife um you know it was maybe not ideal but remember Abraham was monogamous with Sarah their entire life And it wasn't until Sarah literally said, "Here is my maidervant have children for me through her."

[01:12:23]>> And this this is a sin in the sense that, you know, he listened to the voice of his wife uh whereas he shouldn't have listened.

[01:12:32]>> Yeah. But God God never said not to do that, right? Like it's it's not it's not a a sin in the sense that like with Adam and Eve, God said don't eat from this tree, right? So you listen to your wife when God says not do it. God allows men to have multiple wives. I agree with you. It's not the ideal, but it but it's not a sin.

[01:12:53]>> Yeah. So, I mean, first of all, the law of Moses wasn't given at all uh at at that point in time when Abraham did that.

[01:13:00]>> I mean, Abraham was was married to his sister, his halfsister.

[01:13:05]>> Yes. Yes. Would which also would have been a transgression of, you know, >> the law of Moses, right? So, you know, but Abraham's operating in a different time, a different world. you know, God I mean, God loves Abraham so much like I I I honestly cannot find a flaw in Abraham, but um you know, >> yeah. Mhm.

[01:13:22]>> I think it was it was a that point in time it was a lack of faith that he didn't trust in in God's you know uh promise that he would have a son but he sort of you know gave in to this you know pressure that came from from Sarah that she said you know uh give me children otherwise I'll die you know >> that was Rachel that was Rachel >> oh that that was Rachel okay okay so anyway so she she it seems like you know from from this act, you know, that she was willing to even, you know, have her husband, you know, have relations with another woman. It was her, it was quite desperate already. Um, so, um, that I I would say that there was a flaw in a lack of faith in Abraham, >> right?

[01:14:10]>> Nevertheless, he's he's >> it's not a lack of of faith necessarily because, you know, he's utilizing the the opportunities at hand to to procreate. Um, you know, God doesn't tell him it's going to be with Sarah until after he has Ishmael. So, you know, Abraham could have potentially had children with other women. You know, he that he was just working with what he had. But, you know, I I see your point to some degree that he could have, you know, had more faith in the, you know, two become one flesh, God will provide in in this within our our marriage. Um, but, you know, I guess that that's a different point. The point I'm trying to make is that while while I have reverence for all these characters, I wouldn't say that I think Jesus is the only representation or embodiment of the law. Um, you know, I think he certainly has his own unique version and uh you can only imagine uh you how dramatic things were for a man of that caliber to be crucified. um you know as you know by the New Testament says the the skies were shaking and the earth was shaking and thundering and everything. So yeah certainly a big deal that aside you know just again to circle back kind of to to the the issue at hand of like the theological necessity for that as in like where does the Torah provide the necessity for Jesus? And that's kind of like like yes, he's he's an embodiment and and a powerful embodiment, but at the same time, you also raise a a spiritual claim, which is that the only way to achieve the salvation that God promises is through the sacrifice of Jesus covering for your sins. And what I'm asking you is like how do how can you demonstrate that from the Torah?

[01:15:59]actually uh the the at least the the New Testament says there are other ways to come to Halam Habah right Yeshua he's speaking about the judgment of the nations and how there will be people you know um that don't even know him and nevertheless he says to them go into the kingdom that has been prepared to you for you by my father you know about that >> yeah right So, I don't I don't say that it's wrong to do good good deeds and to follow the Torah without believing in Yeshua, but I I do think that his name has a meaning. It will he's true to his mission. He will um and it's just he he will uh save his people from sin and it's just for us to decide if we want to be a part of that. You know, you can I mean in in the in this what I just referenced there in the in the New Testament where he says, you know, I was a stranger and you received me and so on. and he says all these good things that people did you know um and he's saying you know then in the end um whatever you did to one of the least of mine you did to me so um actually it's it's also a fulfillment of what God said to Abraham um I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you right um so there is there will be people who don't know Yeshua and they nevertheless will be in the new world that is going to come.

[01:17:45]>> Okay, >> I admit that and and any Christian who believes in a New Testament should admit that.

[01:17:51]>> Right. Okay. Well, I I appreciate you explaining your position to me. Um ju just to move on for a second to a bit of a different topic cuz you mentioned that you're German, right? And so I just had a podcast last night debate with a guy named Captain Tazarak who calls himself a black Hebrew Israelite. Um and and he was making the point how he hates all white people and all Jews because they're all Esau according to him even though he has no way to verify that. And you know as an example for him hating white people he said you know I hate white people just like you hate Germans cuz you're a Jew and the Germans did the Holocaust you know. And my response to him was like, "No, I actually don't hate Germans. I hate Nazis, right? Um, like actual people who committed murder. Um, I hate evil. I don't hate an entire group of people, right? So, I'm curious like what what you your experience was growing up in Germany. um and like the the cross relations with with Jews and like what it would look like for Germans and Jews um righteous individuals who are who want to restore some sort of connection like what what's your vision for that?

[01:19:03]>> Yeah. Um I mean I left Germany in 2023 uh right after the October 7th attacks in Israel and for a good reason. Um, and I I I you know, I grew up I you you said it. I I was born in Germany. I didn't know anything about having Jewish ancestors.

[01:19:21]Um, I always felt, you know, this is I'm in the wrong place here. I'm an outsider all the time. I'm, you know, I don't correlate with the culture here. It's not, it's not my thing.

[01:19:36]And um yeah and during those years that I talked to you before uh that I talked that that I was mentioning before like I went into psychotherapy because I had a lot of problems personally. Um my family was very uh you know torn. Uh my parents divorced when I was 12 and there um you know my mother she she um in in in that psychotherapy it was about also about you know learning you know where do you come from? who are your grandparents and so on. And um so I I wanted to see you know who are who are those people. I I never got to know my grandparents um on my mother's side at least. And uh so she pulled out uh family tree and uh and she showed like oh there there are there are many Hebrew names there in that family tree but at the same time it always said uh you know Catholic uh whatever Lutheran and so on. And um then also we were talking about the my greatgrandfather, her grandfather and and he was uh he was gassed. He was gassed in 1939.

[01:20:50]He was murdered by the Nazis and uh one of his sons also he was he wasn't gassed but he was murdered in a different way. There's even a newspaper article about that. and um yeah and then there's another son of his who then subsequently joined the SS.

[01:21:13]>> So this is how this very explosive mixture came into my family and my mother uh like her parents died really early. Um, she grew up in the household of that uh of that SS man who probably was a mass murderer and um yeah, so I've been dealing with these things for most of my life. It's a current theme that >> So you're saying that a Jewish family turned into SS officers?

[01:21:49]No, not the whole family. Like I just said like >> Well, the ones who weren't cast.

[01:21:55]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so like the story must be that we're uh bayanosim, you know, like like they converted >> uh in Spain, it seems. I I talked to um one of my um uncles about that and he agreed that you know this this great-grandfather who was murdered, he must have been a Sephardic Jew. um you know um how do you how do you call it like a like a someone who converted to Christianity you know there was in 1492 there was this um you know edict by the by the kings that you know either you convert to Christianity or you >> have to leave the country or you're being murdered and so seems like they chose that and the interesting thing also is like um when I learned about that and yeah and there were different things that sort of you know like like I I think in in our conversation before the this this one like on on WhatsApp I told you um you know uh what was it? Oh yeah that Judaism in Judaism in Germany it's it's just so weird. It's so weird. And um so when I learned about these things I went to synagogue. I went several times I went to synagogue in different places in Berlin and Beerfeld and other places in Germany. But there was something I just you know I I couldn't res I wasn't able to resonate with it. So maybe it was like the dominance of Ashkinazim and in in Germany but anyway I went to South America and I met Jews there and uh it was so much different. They said to me aa like welcome home. And so I broke down in tears and and another another one he he said, "You know, I I believe you're a Jew.

[01:23:51]It has struck me.

[01:23:58]It struck me like it does now, even more so." And uh yeah, and then where there were so many different things like you know I had a girlfriend from Taiwan and she said to me, "Why do you have a tan?

[01:24:17]Why do you have a tan?"

[01:24:25]And another I had a girlfriend from Africa while I was in Spain and she said to me, "You you're like you're like a mixture of a European and an Asian when I went to primary school, you know, there were people the children saying to me, you know, calling me Chinese because I had Asian features features and and even more as a child and and my father you know even after the divorce my father said you know your mother she has something Asian to her and uh yeah and um so that's how I you know realized this thing and >> and it's been a revelation you know I I came to faith in 2011 but I went to um sorry I got to get issue for me for a moment and then uh you know I started um speaking about this that you know I came to realize that I'm Jewish from you know ethnically and uh and it like he has mine camp in his bookshelf you know and he says like you know this is it's only because it's a forbidden book in Germany at least you know and he he says um you know this is it's only forbidden because it's so good.

[01:25:56]That's what he says. And I mean throughout my life, even before realizing I have Jewish roots, you know, constantly I was so aware that, you know, what he's saying about, you know, foreigners and so it's it's just so weird. And that's also how I got into like actually there was a point in time when I didn't admit that I was German as a teenager. Sometimes when I met people, you know, I would pretend to be whatever from the United States or so. Uh not speak German at all. Uh that's how why I went into languages. I studied um translation. I have a bach bachelor's degree in translation.

[01:26:35]And also actually also this I had this sense you know um it's important it's necessary for me to be able to at some point leave Germany really quick and go live in a different place >> which actually came true on October 7th because I was living in uh I was living in a part of town in Brmond which is like a city half a million in Germany which was 70 80% Muslim s and uh you know after realizing that I have Jewish ancestors and so on and never really being able to identify myself with Germany and being a German.

[01:27:19]I I started speaking openly about, you know, being Jewish, which of course then in the in the in the synagogue they wouldn't recognize that. They would tell me like, "Yeah, you have to convert first, then you're Jewish." you know um yeah but um so I would also show it you know with what I was wearing I was wearing a talis katan a lot of yeah now I don't wear it anymore but I did it for a long long time and I was doing that in that in that uh part of town where I was living with like so many Muslims around and then like after October 7th like the atmosphere changed so much actually I was in Cypress when October 7th happened there and this is also something like supernatural that that um happened in my life. Like I in in August and September uh 2023, I I had this feeling like I'm so insecure. There's something weird going on. Something bad is going to happen and and I have to leave Germany and I bought the ticket. I went to Cyprus and while I was there, October 7th happened and then I only went back to get my stuff and I left Germany.

[01:28:29]And since then I've been uh living in I was living in uh Cyprus for two years. I had sort of the idea, you know, I get to know a lot of Israelis there because many Israelis go there and live there.

[01:28:42]And um I might be able to find a an Israeli wife or so and start living in Israel. But um it didn't happen. Now I'm here in Southeast Asia. And the good thing is like here anti-semitism practically isn't known. only if you meet whatever some Europeans who come here. And uh for me it's an opportunity to like get away from that pressure because I had a lot of lot of pressure in Cypress still from anti-Semitic people like especially in the in the congregations where I went uh some there's a a church called Seventh Day Adventist.

[01:29:21]they they keep Sabbath and for some time I was I was attending them quite a lot of time but always they had this thing about you know being anti-Semitic and this uh replacement theology and so on and when I would speak like my mind they would sometimes give me a hard time and got worse and worse um so >> I've I've been yeah >> well no I hear you loud and clear and u you know it's uh very meaningful our roots, where we come from and and what we do with our lives. You know, we all have good roots, bad roots. Um, but all people can be good and could be bad. So, you know, you take what what you've been given and you try to make more of it.

[01:30:05]So, thank God it's it's it's been a it's been a journey and um I wish you a lot more success on that journey and thank you for sharing your story and your uh in your faith.

[01:30:17]Yeah, thank thank you for the uh conversation and I appreciate it very much to you know just be in touch with Jewish people who like accept me the way I am. I'm in touch with an Israeli. Uh I haven't told him anything uh about my faith. I was in touch with another Israeli before and um yeah it's um it's awesome.

[01:30:43]>> All right. Well, God bless.

[01:30:46]Yeah, same to you. All right.