TENET Gets Better Every Time You Watch It

Added: 2026-05-27

[00:00:00]Hi, this is Mark Kerode. Thanks for downloading this Kerode on film podcast.

[00:00:03]Or if you're watching us on YouTube, welcome to upstairs at the Sun Pub in London's bustling West End. I'm joined once again by Jack Howard.

[00:00:11]>> Hello there. Today we're going to be talking about Christopher Nolan kind of generally cuz we we're coming up to the release of the Odyssey. We don't think we can cover all of Christopher Nolan's work or our thoughts on Christopher Nolan's work in one simple half an hour podcast. So this is going to be our first part of what it will be God knows how many parts >> talking about the work of Christopher Nolan. So sit down, relax, grab a drink, do it in reverse >> and enjoy our conversation.

[00:00:38]>> Pump it into a glass.

[00:00:42]>> Let me ask you first, how are you feeling about the Odyssey? Bear in mind, none of us have seen it. Obviously nobody's seen it. It's been trailer and all the rest of There was a there was there was an opening sequence that was shown I think before mainly Avatar four >> is it four ash and fire fire and ash which I didn't see cuz I've like is it three >> so it's Avatar Avatar the way of water avatar fire and ash >> so it is three okay >> felt like five you know >> but I haven't seen it cuz I'm I've lost interest you can you have to see it for a job >> can I tell you a joke that I wrote that I didn't use when I did the um >> tell us all Mark.

[00:01:20]>> Okay. I thought this was a good joke, right? I did the the the Critics Circle Awards, right? And and I wrote a bunch of stuff and then I ended up taking this out for various reasons. I thought this was funny. Probably wasn't. I was doing a thing about, you know, what movies had opened this year and I said, you know, Avatar Fire and Ash, you know, it was in it. And uh one of the actors in Avatar Fire and Ash is very famous for the fact that they can hold their breath underwater for seven minutes. And this was great because you know when you're making the film you have to you have to do the thing. It's interesting for me because I don't know whether you know this we may have discussed it but I suffer from sleep apneoa you know >> and sleep apnnea is that when you fall asleep you stop breathing and you stop breathing for you know and and then you start breathing again. It can be quite dangerous. Anyway I have I appear to have cured it. Um they appear to have cured it through various different things. But the thing is that um when I was watching Avatar Fire and Ash all three hours of it, I'm pretty sure I stopped breathing for longer than seven minutes.

[00:02:25]>> It's good. That's good. Yeah. So for for your sleep apnnea, did you have to wear like a Bane mask?

[00:02:30]>> Weirdly enough, so um I have a I have a friend, an actor friend who I won't name, but >> Mhm.

[00:02:38]>> them. and um >> they're relevant to this conversation.

[00:02:40]>> They're and they have sleep apnoa and they solved it by wearing a bane mask.

[00:02:45]Okay. And uh you know so literally all that stuff and so you sleep with a little >> some joke about like no no one knew I I couldn't sleep until I put on the mask.

[00:02:57]>> And so I uh this is this is absolutely true. We will get to talking about films. Um so I got one of those. It's horrible. It was just like it was like an alien face hugger. I mean really what they should do is they should make face hugger dolls but with a pipe that goes into a little thing you're sleeping with.

[00:03:17]>> So I tried the the the Bane mask but I wanted the face. I didn't like either of them. And then I saw on the internet cuz I'm such an idiot the internet thing. It was like a little thing that clips on your nose with a little propeller in it that just blows air up your nose.

[00:03:32]Apparently you guess what? It doesn't work. All it does is it sounds like an angry bee is attached to your face. You just go, >> "Sorry, hang on." So, it's it's got like it's got like literally it's like a little thing like that. It's got two pipes and it sticks in your nose. It's got a little propeller in it. It's got a little propeller and it just goes but of course it lasts.

[00:03:52]>> No, that's not going to make you go to sleep.

[00:03:53]>> No, it does. No, also it's not going to make you stop breathing. So, anyway, but no, I I but there was there's a whole bunch of other things you can do. It's like to do with the way that you that you lie and to do anyway. But but so I apparently don't have sleep apnnea anymore. Um but it did enable me to make that joke about Avatar. Anyway, >> I'm really excited about the Odyssey.

[00:04:10]>> Yes, thank you. To get us back on track, >> tell me. So So before you're excited before Fire and Ash, which I didn't see and I think before one one battle after another and a few others, they played the opening sequence of the Odyssey.

[00:04:25]Have you seen that?

[00:04:26]>> No, I've deliberately Okay, I've deliberately avoided it. Now, the only thing I've heard >> Can I tell you I haven't even seen the trailer, >> okay?

[00:04:33]>> And I've deliberately avoided it. I I mean, I know what's going on in it, but I've deliberately not watched it because I just >> I can't help myself.

[00:04:39]>> I know, >> but I I haven't seen the opening sequence. The only thing I've heard from my composer, Benjamin Squires, he texts me and said, "Nolan's back on his shepherd tone hype."

[00:04:48]>> Okay.

[00:04:49]>> So, yeah. For anyone who doesn't know, a shepherd tone is a is a a note that feels like it's constantly ascending.

[00:04:56]It's like it's an audio illusion >> because it's not a note. It is basically it's it's the oral equivalent crew.

[00:05:01]Yeah. It's the oral equivalent of a barber's pole is that what happens is that there's two elements to it which is a higher element and a lower element and they go up but they give the illusion of constantly going up and what's happening is that they're doing they're doing that as it goes up but it gives the illusion that it that there's a rising constantly rising and >> it's particularly used in Dunkirk but the >> he's used it in so many things.

[00:05:23]>> The first thing we heard it in in a Nolan film is the bat bike.

[00:05:27]>> That's what I was about to say. Yeah.

[00:05:28]The bat pod is is is the engine of that.

[00:05:30]Sounds like that. We were like fighting to get to that fun fact. Like I'm No, I'm going to say it. Um yeah, that's the Yeah, >> I pulled rank in terms of age.

[00:05:40]>> So um why am I excited about the Odyssey? Look, I am one of those stereotypical men in his 30s who just loves Christopher Nolan. We've talked about this several times. I was at the exact right age when Christopher Nolan was starting to make big movies. I actually remember the first time I ever encountered a Christopher Nolan film was a pirated copy of Batman Begins and I remember being a 13 or 14 watching this and my first feeling on this when I wasn't particularly I always was into movies but I wasn't like into movies yet. I was too young. So, I was watching this pirated copy of Batman Begins, and as you know, Batman doesn't show up for an hour. So, I'm watching it as a kid being like, "What the hell is this?

[00:06:28]>> When will Batman begin?

[00:06:29]>> Where is Batman?

[00:06:31]>> When will Batman begin?"

[00:06:35]>> So, I like just wasn't interested at all. And then the trailer for The Dark Knight came out in early 2008, mixed with obviously the the tragedy of the death of Heath Ledger. And I then at the age of 16 watched Batman Begins properly and was gobsmacked and was like that is the best superhero film I've ever seen.

[00:06:55]>> Yeah.

[00:06:56]>> So since then >> I've been on the train.

[00:06:59]>> So I weirdly enough this morning so we're here in the in the Sun Pub in um are we Covent Garden? Technically is this Covent Garden?

[00:07:07]>> I Well I I walk from Tottenham Court Road. I think we're just in sort of Soho area.

[00:07:11]>> We're on Drury Lane. We're down we're down the road from the Travel Lodge.

[00:07:15]We're we're in the classic, you know, it's the the gingerbread man on Dreary Lane.

[00:07:19]>> That's where it is.

[00:07:22]>> So, I have just come from recording a bunch of BFI intros because I do intros for the BFI player. And I did one for Insomnia, not the Nolan remake, but the Eric Schelio original, the Norwegian film. And it's fascinating because when I first encountered Nolan, I think maybe momento was the first was the very first thing I hadn't seen. Knowing because I think people only following >> following. There we go. Was knowing was might shyan.

[00:07:51]>> Knowing knowing what is the one I can think of is like a Nicholas Cage movie.

[00:07:54]>> Yeah, that's right. Of which one of the reviews said it's best not to.

[00:07:59]>> Yeah. Following. And um so I hadn't seen that because I don't think anybody really saw Following until afterwards.

[00:08:04]It was kind of like all I know about it I've seen it now but all I know about it from the time is that it was a festival darling.

[00:08:09]>> Yes.

[00:08:09]>> He'd made it over the course of a year like every Saturday for a year just got together and and filmed one once a week.

[00:08:16]>> Um and it's what got Momento. Yes. Made >> but it but but so basically for most people like me the first film they saw was Momento.

[00:08:25]>> I would say in a lot of ways Momento is kind of his first film cuz following is essentially like a a big student project. the same way that Bait is Mark Jenkins debut feature, but there is actually a movie that he made a long time before and it's the same with Amoris Santi and um uh and Bell. Anyway, so I had seen Momento and loved it. Went to see Insomnia, which was his 2002 remake of the Norwegian film. absolutely loved Insomnia, having obviously at that point not seen the Norwegian film because it had been a you know hit in Norway but it it wasn't a such a big hit that in you know in the '9s reviewing films for Radio One I would have seen it. What really surprised me was how close the Nolan Insomnia was to the original. There are key differences, but it is stylistically and in terms of a lot of the kind of narrative decisions, it is it is an oddly similar film. And I remember thinking, oh, you know that thing when you hear a great pop record and you think that's absolutely brilliant. Somebody goes, you know, it's a cover version. No. And then you hear the original, you go, it it's the same.

[00:09:34]>> It's the same.

[00:09:35]>> But what was really interesting was going back to watch it again to do the BFI intro for the original version.

[00:09:41]>> Mh. uh of insomnia realizing no it isn't the same there are there are absolutely things in that which are Nolan and apparently Nolan saw Insomnia a couple of times before he made his his uh his own feature debut and he had he had really liked it and and and said I'm going to remake this and he had been really really struck by something in it which kind of informs the rest of his work. And it was just fascinating watching the original and then the Nolan and going, "Okay, they they look similar, but they're absolutely not.

[00:10:21]This is absolutely a Chris Nolan film in its DNA as opposed to just a shot forshot remake of this original."

[00:10:27]Incidentally, if you've never seen the original of Insomnia is I mean, it's great. It's got Stellan Scarsgard who's fantastic and it's got that >> the whole you know, Sleep No More thing going on in it.

[00:10:37]>> I need to watch it. But I was just fascinated by the idea that you can make a remake that is that is fairly close and yet very different. And I think that's the point at which you start think oh there okay there is such a thing as a Chris Nolan sensibility and then of course as I've said a million times I saw Batman Begins and I >> hang on I want to know what the difference was that you found that like when you're like this is a Chris Nolan movie. What do you mean by that? So, I think that the original of that movie is a dark crime thriller, and I think that the Chris Nolan movie is a sort of existential musing.

[00:11:13]>> And they're both about somebody consumed by guilt who is living in an area where the sun doesn't go down, you know, because it's Arctic and consequently you can't sleep. But I think >> it's where the director is applying the pressure essentially. Is it like is like oh it's it's about you can feel that he's interested in this and this director's interested in this.

[00:11:31]>> So so what I think is that in the original what Eric Schelier's interested in is the narrative and in the Nolan remake what Nolan's interested in is the is the story behind the story. It's not really about how this happened. It's not really about why this guy is in this position. And actually, I can tell you that that's definitely true from my memory of the film, which I've only seen maybe two or three times. My memory of it is about the relationship between Alpuccino and Robin Williams' character and about what that feels like and and like you say, the guilt that he's feeling rather than actually the plot like and and what the mystery is. And I think the well it's not even a mystery because you know exactly what's happened. But the question is whether or not the whether or not the central character is able to avoid what's happened which to which the answer you know the answer about the it's the sun doesn't go down so no they can't. And and I just think there is something in the Nolan which is much more leaning into the abstract idea of it as opposed to the this is this is grounded firmly in you know this is this is a twisty neon noir Norwegian crime thriller. I mean obviously a lot of Scandinir is kind of very dark anyway but the very dark thing about the original version of Insomnia. I mean I love the title anyway because to me insomnia is like hell. um that I think the original version is much more about the mechanics of how that happens and the Nolan version is less interested in the mechanics of it although the mechanics all work but is more interested in the abstract concept of guilt.

[00:13:05]>> Got it. Interesting. Yeah. And it's interesting you say that as well because I think that as Christopher Nolan has evolved as a filmmaker, I would say that the mechanics and how things work are very interesting to him. They're they're interesting and they're important but in the end they aren't the point this may be something that we'll talk about with tenant. So in the case of inception right inception is layered and has the you know this whole going down deeper into different layers and then we see that kind of you know revisited in interstellar but it's not about that.

[00:13:38]What is it about? Well you know yes it's you know it's on her majesty's secret service in a dream thing but it's actually about grief. Yes. And it's it's about a father who wants to get back to his children.

[00:13:49]>> Yes. And so it is so it is that's what it's about. And then there's all the other stuff going on. And in the case of Interstellar, the way that Interstellar comes about >> father trying to get back children >> and you know the story obviously that Han Zimmer >> that Chris Nolan went to Han Zimmer and said, "I want you to write a a melody about a father's love for his son." And Han Zimmer went away and wrote it and then he played it to Nolan and Nolan went well now I have to make the film.

[00:14:15]Of course, in the film, it's not the son, it's it's the daughter.

[00:14:17]>> I think it was a son in the script originally, actually.

[00:14:19]>> Oh, was it? I think so. In the original Jonathan Nolan script, when it was going to be a Spielberg film, I think it was originally a son. And actually, a lot of the um from what I know in Interstellar, the uh the unchanged things are the most powerful stuff that's lasted, which is him coming back from the planet where the time dilation has happened and watching his children grow up in the matter of minutes. that apparently is an unchanged scene from the original Jonathan Nolan script.

[00:14:45]>> And then I think you know in the case of Momento again it's very it's very clever again Jonathan Nolan um you know it's got that kind of uh okay because everyone was talking for ages weren't they I don't know anybody actually did this about doing momento in the right order. Is there a version >> there is a version on the DVD where they've put it in the right order for you which I'm not I'm not interested >> for no reason. That's like It's like the thing that Copela did with the Godfather was when he took Godfather one and two and he put them in the right no just ju stop doing that.

[00:15:16]>> I think I think it's only like as a thought because people just think, oh, wonder what it looks like in the right order. Oh, it doesn't work.

[00:15:21]>> It doesn't work. Yeah, >> it's not supposed to be viewed this way.

[00:15:23]>> But again, it's not just about that clever trick. And the most perfect example of that is that the Prestige, which is literally about a trick, is not about a trick. And I think for me the most problematic of the Nolans is tenet because that's the one that feels to me no I'm not I've only I've seen it far fewer times than you have. For me it's the one in which the schematics >> are the point. The palendrome is the point >> and >> well I can feel I can feel like the energy building up in me.

[00:15:57]>> All right I'm going I'm going to allow you to go. So let me I'll say it and then you can you tell me why I'm wrong.

[00:16:02]That >> no it's not about being wrong.

[00:16:04]>> Okay. For all of them, the mechanics are are used in service of a deeper >> thing. I mean, you know, however deep you want it to be, but it's a deeper thing. In the case of tenant, the mechanics are the point >> discuss.

[00:16:20]>> Interesting. I think we could maybe do an entire a further episode on discussing this. Uh, you could.

[00:16:27]>> Yeah, definitely. Maybe if people want us to do that, we will. I think you are absolutely correct in in in one half of the way that I look at tennet. It is a mechanical puzzle of a film. It's like doing a sudoku puzzle and there's something about that that that works for my brain. Anybody who likes that kind of time travel stuff especially something where it is a fixed timeline. So it's not like a back to the future thing where you can go back change something and then the future is different and then oh no we the split timelines. This is something where it's a perfect circle and they say it in the movie what's happened. So when you go back in time, you aren't changing something. You're just living it from a different perspective, >> which is very curable, >> which is and it's very cool. It's very It just kind of scratches something that I like. And there's something about the movie that I would say to people, just enjoy. I mean, they say it in the film, don't try and understand it, feel it.

[00:17:18]And I think what they mean by that, because it's not an emotional film, well, there's nothing to feel. What I mean is the music is telling the story.

[00:17:26]Lwig Gorson's score for that movie is unbelievably cool. So good.

[00:17:31]>> And Nolan had it on set when he was shooting.

[00:17:34]>> Yes.

[00:17:34]>> Something that I love about the fact that um the the movie is about stuff happening simultaneously. So the opening sequence of the film and the final sequence of the film are actually happening on the same day. So stuff is happening simultaneously. And in the film making, Ludley Gorson was making the score at the same time as they were shooting the film, which is very unusual. You usually don't do that. And so the fact that there was the mechanics of the film was happening simultaneously whilst he's making a film about stuff happening simultaneously, I think is a very cool exercise. And that's another thing I love about it as well actually is that it's it is a cool exercise of a film. It's Nolan going, "They gave me $200 million and I made this because I can." And I think that's awesome.

[00:18:17]>> Okay. The problem is is that I'm in agreement with you, but you're not saying anything that disagrees. I'll get into it. You get into it. I'll get into it. So I would say that like when when they say don't >> understand begins when it's an hour before Batman actually begins.

[00:18:28]>> Batman begins. Uh I I I think that when they say don't try and understand it, feel it. It is about like let the film take you on its ride. Be a baby in the universe and just be like I don't know where I'm going and what what's happening with this and just enjoy that experience.

[00:18:43]At the same time I would argue that the the story that's underneath Tenet is actually about a family drama.

[00:18:52]>> Okay. It is actually about a mother, a father and a son. And it is purposely hidden because one of the big things that said in tennet is ignorance is our ammunition and um that that no one can know anything because if you know it then you might try and change it and it has to happen the way it happens. Right?

[00:19:11]>> Okay.

[00:19:12]>> So my first example of this is the first time that Robert Patatterson meets the protagonist. when he sits down and meets him. It's in a hotel lobby and Robert Patson's character Neil is a little bit drunk and he sits down and speaks to him and he knows too much about him and he he lets things slip. So he lets him know that his favorite drink is a diet coke or something >> and he shouldn't do that but he's letting stuff slip because he's a bit drunk. Now if you watch that scene, he's essentially meeting it's like the Back to the Future scene. He's meeting a future version of his father in a in a lot of ways his surrogate father. So he's looking at his a young version of his dad and he's almost a bit Jack Sparrow about it. He's a bit like like can't believe I'm here looking at you.

[00:19:49]It's >> not a phrase you want to throw around lightly. He's a bit Jack Sparrow.

[00:19:53]>> You know what I'm saying? I do. I do.

[00:19:54]>> He's a bit He's And uh so the way I would describe the the family drama of it is that you've got Cat who who is the mother of Max and Max is Neil. I believe that to be a true uh theory and I'll tell you why in a second. And you've got the protagonist who is literally called the protagonist and that is the mother, son, and the father, right? And none of them can tell each other that's what they are to each other because if they do, they'll ruin what has to happen. But all the secrets are there to watch it.

[00:20:23]And it's there's moments in it where cat is dying and for some reason the protagonist feels like a desperate need to go back and save her. You have bits where Neil is literally taking care of his dying mother, but she's like, "Who are you?" And he goes, "Let's start with the simple stuff. every law of physics.

[00:20:39]But like that the reason why that's funny is obviously like every rule of physics, but also like I'm not going to sit here and say to you I'm your son by the way. So >> one of the the biggest theories about who Neil was and how he's Max was I don't buy this one that if you cuz everything obviously is reversed in it.

[00:20:54]Pull-up is a palenrome. Literally the word pull-up is a palenrome but also the action is a palenrome. Everything's a pal and drrome. It's based on the sat square.

[00:21:00]>> That was your favorite moment when you realized that wasn't it? when I realized that you literally >> think you literally had an you did >> Mark phone down. Um but that if you take the spelling of the less popular spelling of Maxmillian >> where it's an E instead of an A and then you reverse it the first four letters are Neil. I don't buy that at all. I think there is a much >> Yeah, that sounds contrived to me.

[00:21:26]>> I completely agree. But um firstly I don't think the film works if he's not Cat's son. I don't think there's any point emotionally to the to the story if he's not. The thing that is I think evidence beyond argument is there is a moment when they are going back to Stalsk 12 before the big war that happens between a army that's going backwards and an army going forwards >> which always looks to me like somebody double booked a football match and one one team is playing end to end and the other team is playing side to side.

[00:21:57]>> Why are we even playing? We know they win. um when they're going back in time to that day on the big ship, Cat, Neil, and the protagonist are all having a conversation and Cat's uh role is to go back and pretend to be a past version of herself.

[00:22:12]>> Yes.

[00:22:13]>> Which is another part of the story I will also get to about why I think this is an emotional story, but it's not telling you that it's an emotional story. And she says, "If the world ends, I don't want those moments to be full of anguish if they're going to be my son's last." and the protagonist looks at Neil and then goes they're not >> okay >> and I think that is indisputable evidence that that is who he is right so it's that kind of thing going on also >> Cat is married to Sattor played by Kenneth Brer brilliantly played as he's doing uh who is your friend >> I know in some films I've been very likable but in this one not likable at all >> I'm going to take you out the side and put your balls in your mouth Um, >> yeah, we've all said that, you know, >> he uh is obviously he's trying to end the world as we know it by reversing entropy so that the what we have done to the future people is we've destroyed the world. Basically, like the the uh the climate is so bad that they have no choice but to turn back.

[00:23:14]>> And uh he is abusive. He's an abusive horrible terrorist of a man and he's abusive to his wife Cat. She is literally scarred by him cuz he uses a reversing bullet to scar her, you know, and but also she's emotionally scarred by him, but that's obviously represented physically with that scar. She goes back to a moment of trauma literally and realizes that she's always had the strength to rise above him. In that moment, okay, that we know about where like she was told that I'm I'm going to keep your son from you. If you ever leave me, I'm going to keep your son from you. She revisits that moment of trauma and defeats him in that moment.

[00:23:53]And I think I mean you're telling me that there's nothing emotional about the fact that it's a film about I mean what other way of talking about like dealing with your trauma is it than going back in time and looking at that moment and understanding what's happened's happened. I have to accept it and I have to become stronger and move on. Anyway, >> I'm not saying there's no emotion in it.

[00:24:13]What I'm saying is that for me it's the one in which the the technique has got, you know, you said yourself that it's, you know, the ignorance is a weapon and and and these things are hidden. And how many times have you seen it now?

[00:24:25]>> I don't care to admit.

[00:24:27]>> Okay. How how many times were you in before it started striking you that this is what it's actually about?

[00:24:33]>> So, I understand what you're saying and you're getting to the point of like should it take that?

[00:24:38]>> No, I'm not. I mean, listen, there are films I know that, you know, that that I love because on the ninth viewing I, you know, I clicked in, but it's the one in which it's hit, you know, in terms of the layers of Inception, it's down there with the rocks and the sea. In terms of Interstellar, it's on the planet down, you know, it's like it's a long way down. and and and the problem for me and I'm not criticizing it because I you know as I said I think the problem with it is me rather than it is that I've twice and both times I've been so bamboozled by the plot and it may be partly that I'm just dumb.

[00:25:13]>> No, I don't think so at all. And I think you are most people most people are like this is too obtuse like this is this is impenetrable. It's it doesn't give a if you're catching up or not. It just goes and I don't think that makes you dumb. I also don't think it makes the film stupid either.

[00:25:29]>> No, I and and neither do I. I just it's it's the one with the sort of least emotional resonance. Weirdly, to come back to Insomnia, Insomnia does have emotional resonance, which I think is largely to do with the performances. I think Inception is the most overpoweringly emotionally resonant, which is funny because Interstellar is the one that's going, >> but I think most people would say that Interstellar, weirdly, >> is the one that's pleading for your engagement. Well, I think what's interesting is that when Interstellar came out, >> it wasn't critically that wellreceived.

[00:26:00]It wasn't like panned. Not >> sort of like if we're going to use Rotten Tomatoes >> as a Yeah, but like that's like it's like a 70s something percent and he's usually in the, you know, high 80s 90s.

[00:26:12]It wasn't nominated for an Oscar the same way Inception was. Like it just >> I forget all of this because Inter because Interstellar is the one that's lasted. Interstellar is the one which they do live performances of with the score. Or in fact, we had a letter just recently from somebody who went to see it and they said the organ was just soaring and now everybody realizes, oh yeah, that's you know >> it's my it's my girlfriend's favorite film like she she loves space like all I think it just hits people in a way that I mean we've talked about it before in Interstellar I've very much relaxed on it over time. I love it uh for what it is now. Yeah. And I used to criticize it so much more when I was a bit younger and a bit more like full of, >> you know, full of but now I'm like it's >> it's positives so much outweigh its negatives.

[00:26:58]>> Um I think it's still a bit silly and it is pining for your emotion.

[00:27:01]>> It it re it really is. I mean it's it's of all of Nolan's films, it's the one that literally gets on its knees and goes, "Love me." It's interesting to have heard recently when Timothy Shalamé was doing a his Oscar campaign that went well. Uh he was doing screenings of films he was in with either directors or other actors that were in it and one of them that he did was was with Nolan and I'd never seen Nolan look so relaxed. It was very interesting. He's usually prim and proper. I'm definitely a film director, >> but in this he was a bit more chill and I've never heard him admit something like this, but he was saying that critics and and the like had referred to him as a cold filmmaker >> and he took that personally and that's kind of what inspired him to make Interstellar feel so emotional and and it's it is interesting to hear that like he was responding to >> to criticism which to me he's always felt a little bit like I do what I want.

[00:27:49]Yes. And nothing nothing penetrates. But that that's interesting particularly because weirdly enough um I've interviewed Ron a couple of times but I met him once which is different to interviewing somebody. Yes. I met him in the bookshop of the BFI >> and I had written a BFI modern classics on silent running >> and I gave him a copy of it and he very graciously accepted it. You know he was you know he knew he know this >> exactly though he knows who I am but he was like he was nice about it. But the interesting thing about Silent Running is that Silent Running was made by Doug Trumbull specifically as a response to having spent four years working on Stanley Kubrick's 2001 which was a film which he said the most sympathetic character is a computer that tries to kill everyone and he deliberately made an emotional movie and Silent Running is one of my favorite films and I had the sense that it that Nolan would feel the same and I discovered that he is indeed a fan of that film and of course the thing with Silent Running is in the same way as Interstellar makes no sense whatsoever. But the emotion of it is the thing which you know which you know which which catches you. I still think that the most emotional moment in any Nolan film is the prestige when you realize what's going on. And I think that's the perfect example of the machinations of the plot. You know the >> the mousetrap of the plot as it were.

[00:29:09]You know, the thing that kills the bird is Oh my god. You don't You had no idea that that's what was at stake every time they do the trick.

[00:29:20]>> Yes. The the the thing that people are willing to sacrifice to be the best.

[00:29:24]>> Exactly. Exactly. And I think it really is genuinely heartbreaking because it it's it's about losing yourself as opposed to losing somebody else. And I I >> literally losing yourself. literally losing yourself over and over and over again. And I I still find myself thinking cuz you know the prestige is it's like the I am very aware of this.

[00:29:47]The prestige is the one that narky film crit Oh, you you choice. It's a smart choice. Yes. Which one do you like?

[00:29:52]Interstellar. Oh, marvelous. Oh, Inception. Everybody likes that. Yes.

[00:29:55]Oh, well done. You want, you know, but but actually the really smart choice and I'm I'm really guilty of this is prestige. But I'm telling you the reason it's prestige is firstly it's got great performances but secondly because that is genuinely >> Mhm.

[00:30:12]>> And I didn't see it coming is the other thing.

[00:30:15]>> Yes. I I I think you're right. I I don't What's interesting is I like the prestige. I don't particularly love re-watching it. I'm a big rewatcher guy which is why tenet I think >> the more you give to it >> the more it gives back to you. And you can find these things if you're looking for them. If you are looking for just like a casual watch, if you are if you're not if you're not going to invest time in it, I understand why you might look at tenant and be like that's the ugly duckling. I get it. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this.

[00:30:44]Yeah, but like >> I do I do I understand why people would think that because it is hard to get into, but it's in now and it's directly inspired. But I don't re I don't love re-watching the prestige. I don't love I think Momento is really brilliant, but it's also really like darkly melancholic and like I don't think that's fun to rewatch.

[00:31:08]>> Here's an interesting one which we haven't mentioned and I think is probably arguably his best film, >> the one he won best picture, best director for Oppenheimer.

[00:31:18]>> That is weirdly a comfort watch for me.

[00:31:20]>> Isn't that Isn't that strange? I love the rhythm that Nola makes movies and I think that Oppenheimer's rhythm is something that like again it scratches my brain like there's something about it that makes me feel like I'm on a good I'm on a good ride here.

[00:31:35]>> Okay. So I'd like to make a suggestion because I think we have to carry on aren't we?

[00:31:38]>> Here's what we're going to do. Let's draw this to a close now on this point and we'll pick up on this that you've said that that what you think is at the center of tenant which is the one that I found slightly emotionally cold was the idea you know that it's a family. It's a thing about family being pulled apart.

[00:31:54]Obviously, at the center of the Odyssey is a story about family being pulled apart. So, >> it's what Nolan's been making moves about over and over and over again.

[00:32:02]>> Is it? So, let's park this here >> and let's pick this up in the next one.

[00:32:07]Well, there we go. I hope you enjoyed the first part of our ongoing discussion about Christopher Nolan. If people have enjoyed it, Jack, what should they do?

[00:32:13]>> You know, they like it, they subscribe to the channel, they can leave a review on the podcast if they enjoy the podcast.

[00:32:19]>> Apparently, that's a big thing. Leave a review cuz apparently that's a big thing.

[00:32:22]>> As long as it's nice.

[00:32:23]>> As long as it's nice. Yes. And if you want to hear more movie conversation with me and Simon Mayo, come and Mayo's take is available wherever you get your podcasts. We will be back talking more Christopher Nolan very soon.