Race, Religion & Privilege (PART 3) | with Firdaus Wong | The Final Showdown

Added: 2026-05-14

[00:00:06]Are you an agent of chaos?

[00:00:09]>> It depends how do you define uh chaos right? If you define chaos as someone who just create controversy without any purpose without the real and authentic purpose and good purpose then uh I'm not >> you're not >> I'm not but then if you say create chaos in a scenario where there's a lot of mischief to create instability for those who create mischief then maybe to say chaos might be the right words or maybe not the exact word that we can use.

[00:00:45]Yeah.

[00:00:46]>> Are you are you not concerned about the impact of your of your work?

[00:00:49]>> Well, anyone who have an opinions definitely they will have an impact, right? Anybody who do not want to be labeled as controversial, they should not have any opinions, right? I believe that uh people might disagree with you, people might disagree with me and people might have disagree with certain guests on your show as well. So, >> uh it depends on each other perspective I believe. Yeah. No, but that you you you do say that but often times you are your name appears to be connected uh around very very controversial and I as I mentioned polarizing topics for instance uh the whole temple demolition the KK Mart you were alleged you were accused which you of course denied of being part of that uh the KKM issue a long time ago. So you are connected to whether you want to or not to very uh racially explosive uh issues. So with all of these things uh considering also the statements you have made your social media postings and all that with all of that considered >> what are you trying to achieve by these statements by your actions what's your goal here >> I believe that uh when we look into the right perspective right the weird things about how our community uh view things and their thought their thought process is that if a certain thing just imagine yeah if the things just change the person my name to any politician name that uh our you know our audience prefer maybe a certain political party or certain political figure just change my name to their names.

[00:02:14]>> What will happen to that to that issues?

[00:02:17]They might be supporting the issues too.

[00:02:19]They might say oh yes we should take care we should take this thing seriously. Why? Because that thing was mentioned by a figure that they like that they support right now. But since that things is being brought up by me maybe uh someone and individual they do they dislike maybe so it become negative. So sometimes the way how we view certain thing is not being very objective is very uh narrow-minded in a sense that we look at who is the carrier of the message. If the carrier of the message okay I don't like him. Whatever he say whatever they say whatever they do I will view it in a very negative way. But if that things come from someone that I like or I support well psychologically you tend to support them more alough it can be the same issues like you mentioned just now right KMA this and that right now put it into other perspective did other political party did other people they bring it bring out controversial issue too >> yes they do >> they do but they receive support now if >> not from all not from all of the people right so likewise like what I did is that okay not all support but the ultimate goal is not about getting people support. It's not about people to like me which is normally I will use the words which I don't really care either people like me or not because ultimately is what inside you what is your real intentions if your intentions is to uphold the constitutions and the law of the land then let it be >> okay >> people might dislike you just the same way the police will arrest a criminal but where the robbers the criminal will like the police will like to enforce the enforcement officer they will not like it well we should not stop doing something just for the fact that oh they say a lot of things about you you should stop you should not do it no >> I'm not saying stop though but perhaps practice more caution practice more restraint >> yeah again elegance cautious is something which is very subjective which is for me sometimes maybe you can agree as well if we say oh cautious I might be cautious but for you no you should be a bit more toned down a bit more now how much is toned down is is considered to be toned again right is something that is very subjective. So coming back to that is that what is our conscience? If your conscience is clear, you know what you're doing is right and correct. But of course we are coming back to >> but are you saying >> no but are you saying because again you have said this before in in an interview with Victor Tan recently that you did.

[00:04:45]Okay.

[00:04:45]>> You said and I quote either we like it or we don't like it. People will have opinions about us regardless of what we say and what we do.

[00:04:52]>> Y >> either they understand us or they don't understand us. People always have their own perceptions. Of course, I accepted your invitation to be on this podcast about defend.

[00:05:06]But are you saying that you are infallible? That means you are you are you you don't make mistakes that you may not say the wrong things.

[00:05:12]>> I I believe that is like uh putting a words uh that I never say that I'm saying that I'm infallible.

[00:05:19]>> No, no, I'm not saying you said I'm asking whether by by saying this are you saying that implying. For me personally, I would not go and justify am I infallible? Did I say I infallible?

[00:05:28]Those are the word that I never use. So I would not address that things. But I have said what I have said in that podcast. So I stand by it. I stand by it. Just because someone say that you know I want to speak up my mind doesn't mean that they claim to be infallible.

[00:05:41]It's just that people will put words into your mouth which is up to them.

[00:05:45]>> No no I'm I'm not saying that you firstly I'm not saying that you you said you're infallible. You never said that.

[00:05:50]You never ever said that. But what I am referring to is that when you say that because for me there's nothing for me to defend. You're almost implying that whatever you say or do is is not defendable. It's never wrong. It's right. So that's what I mean.

[00:06:03]>> I stand to be corrected. I think I have mentions in that podcast as well. I stand to be corrected. If I say something wrong, I will say okay, I encourage and I welcome people to correct me. But but what you see is that in terms of the audience, the public and the netizens. Oh, this guy again. Ah, whatever. Well, they didn't bring anything which is concrete. Well, to accuse me as if I just have to accuse you of being something like for example, I accuse you of being a liar without me showing where do you lie, right? which is you just imagine that we not if they say every time you have to face that kind of accusation we not you have to defend yourself are you a liar are you a liar hey bro how many time I have to defend myself no that's why I say I don't have to defend myself and I don't have any intentions to go to any podcast to go to any interview to defend myself because that is not an interrogations if let's say is interrogations then we have to do it in the court right then I have I have the obligations to answer that in the court yes >> but >> the one who accuse have to provide enough evidence to substantiate their claims or accusation first before we can have a healthy discussion.

[00:07:11]>> Fair enough. And again, I want to highlight I'm not accusing you of anything. You're available.

[00:07:16]I won't be here.

[00:07:17]>> Fong you did this.

[00:07:21]>> What? We don't know. Okay. So, but again, you you you do say that, but I don't think I think people like me can say that because we are a small platform, a tiny platform compared to you. You have 620k followers on Facebook, 388,000 more followers on Instagram, 264K followers on Tik Tok.

[00:07:37]You are a big guy.

[00:07:38]>> You really do a lot of research on me. I think you know more than know more about me than I know more about you.

[00:07:44]>> No, but but and then when I when I see your post on Facebook, they get a lot of engagement, shares, comments, hundreds, thousands of comments, right? So you are a person with a platform. Whether you want to accept it or not, you are. But so do you not think when you have such a powerful big platform that you are responsible to uh for the influence that you promote that you you must accept that what I say and do can influence the people who follow me.

[00:08:06]>> Exactly. Actually I agree with what you say that uh the power to influence and that is why I choose the power to influence positively but again up to people to perceive it as positive or not. I cannot change their perspective and I would I don't have the intention to change their perspective. Okay, they themselves they have to willingly to listen and process whatever that I say whatever that I write rationally not emotionally as simple as that. So since you say that I have the platform. Yes, I I believe so that I have the platform.

[00:08:39]Yeah. With the numbers that you have quoted, right? Of course. So I I will not deny that. So that's why I choose to influence uh positively.

[00:08:46]>> Okay. You say that but again when I when I when I look at your Facebook page and I look at the comments, right? So this is a post that you did which which we will get into uh the rain rain event which you posted many things. So this is just some of the comments. Of course there's hundreds there's thousands.

[00:09:01]Right. This is from Mohammad Isam Hassan who works at Mine Techch Education.

[00:09:05]>> Okay. Who is Isam? Who is Isam? Please show up. No. And and I mentioned the name because I don't There are of course boards and fake fake profiles. So that's why I mentioned the name and the work.

[00:09:14]>> He says tolerant.

[00:09:24]Okay, that's one. Another post you you shared titled Ashra who works as a real estate guy said it's almost as if he's his empathy and and and humanity is only channeled towards one faith right again on that same post who's retired formerly at KPM said that family maker is this what you term as positivity.

[00:09:56]>> Okay. Again I I I'm not going to justify whatever they have wrote or they have commented right >> again uh you can say about that uh and it's easy just to pick one side and focus on that and amplify on it right which is uh this is what >> no but a lot of the comments are negative a lot >> of course but uh if you were to talk again I'm not here to justify their comments it's up to them they have to justify themselves right >> no but I'm not I'm not asking you to justify them what I am implying is that perhaps could be that it is your words.

[00:10:27]It is your actions that inspire them because now you are a man, you are a community leader.

[00:10:31]>> But uh when you look into the entirely of my social media, right? Uh it's easy just to pick one or two or few which is sound controversial to some people. But if someone to be fair-minded when you look into entirely what I have posted and the principle that I'm up I'm holding on is that you will see that I'm very consistent in terms of my principle. What is my principle? My principle is justice. What is justice?

[00:10:55]Justice is beyond race, religion and the skin color.

[00:11:00]>> Of course.

[00:11:00]>> Right. Yeah. So now if we were to highlight maybe maybe this is in your questions as well.

[00:11:05]>> Um when you look into uh the recent incidents about uh this uh so-cal uh a Facebook page which insulted the Sultan of Slango, >> right? Okay. I can just choose to remain quiet. But what I did what I did was okay I say this is a fake account. Why?

[00:11:26]Because the same profile came to my Facebook and commented the same thing with the with the same pictures and I go and search. I go and search this guy this profile have zero followers and zero likes.

[00:11:37]>> But then the original ones okay have around few thousand followers and like with the numbers with their SSM numbers everything's there.

[00:11:44]>> Okay >> I even have screenshot. I even have done a screen recording on that. Now, if the goal is just to in incite or instigate racial issues, why not just to choose to be quiet? It's much easier, right? But of course, they're going to be a lack backlash. But somehow before anything, before even the police investigate and call the admin of the original page, Iris stated that this is a fake profile.

[00:12:10]This is a fake profile. Now, that is number one. Number two, a few months before uh about the Quran steppers, the guy witness Ryan Witness.

[00:12:19]>> Yes.

[00:12:20]>> Well, again, I I have mentioned in uh my podcast with Wter.

[00:12:24]>> I said, do I have the options to be quiet, remain silent? I do and let the Indian community to be bashed by people.

[00:12:33]But that's not my intention. If that is my intention, silence is the best option.

[00:12:38]>> Okay?

[00:12:38]>> But I don't. In fact, you see the moment I say I make my first post, if I'm not mistaken, I have made three or four post about that incident. That's it. And what happened was I knew very well the moment I make this post, they're going to be a backlash on me.

[00:12:54]>> Okay, >> which I'm ready. And the backlash is not coming from uh the other side. The backlash going to come from people who people think perceive to be my supporters. But somehow they go against me. They're going to criticize me.

[00:13:05]They're going to insult me. But for me, I'm going to do I'm willing to take the risk. Why for me? Well, if my principle is justice, then justice need to be served. Then I have to tell the truth. I cannot withhold the truth. So knowing that, so I just pose and of course the backlash. But of course from there you can see some non-Muslim also have some positive comment by saying ah okay I might disagree with you but now you have done the right things.

[00:13:34]>> What did you post? I have posted I make the I clear the air by saying that this guy he become Muslim he's a Muslim how do I know of course people there of course a lot of news media they cover that oh a plot twist where Fred Wong suddenly claimed that this guy the Quran steppers initially was a Hindus and then Christian and now Fred Wong claim he's a Muslim plot twist so I wrote that I say he's a Muslim of course a lot of people question me but I am that kind of person that so far alhamdulillah all praise to Allah that I never post or say anything without evidence.

[00:14:10]>> Okay.

[00:14:11]>> So I know exactly what I do. Either I share the evidence with public or not is a different matter. It's a different matter.

[00:14:17]>> But you did like you shared the screenshot >> and I share the screenshot.

[00:14:20]>> I share the screenshot.

[00:14:21]>> So of course the things die down and you can see that in terms of the temperature during that time the ratio tensions >> drop. Why? It's easy. It's easy for me just to let the temperature to increase and increase and increase. Let it blown out of proportions. But I don't do that >> because for me I stick to my principle.

[00:14:40]If you are right, you are right.

[00:14:41]>> But you must question yourself. You must look in the mirror and ask yourself why is it that these incidences always surround me? the KKM allegation and then now you have this >> what are the allegations of the KK if you >> basically the socks was sponsored by you that that that you were the one who and you did it because of business uh competition because back then I don't know whether back then because you did come in a statement that you actually removed your shareholding in that company but you were running a grosser so because competition that was the allegation which you denied fine and that's an only issue >> no no it's not it's not the allegations I think there is uh is is a slander that I don't take further actions on that >> I know but then you actually did deny which is fine that's fine that's the whole thing >> no it's it's not so denying it's So it's about uh the failure. I know who did that which I don't want to re name them here. Really? Why not? I >> I knew I know who did that. I know who said who said that things. I they even posted on that and uh some of them even came on your on your show as well which I refuse to name them here.

[00:15:32]>> Um which is >> u the failure of those people who accuse me to do proper research before they throw any accusations.

[00:15:39]>> Of course. Agreed.

[00:15:40]>> Well uh but nobody condemned them for that. Nobody condemned them. Number one.

[00:15:45]Number two. The fact of the matter is again I'm not here to defense right the matter of the case is that did KK admit their mistake?

[00:15:54]>> They did.

[00:15:54]>> They did so many times. It's not my wrongdoing. It's not planted by me.

[00:15:58]>> Of course. Fair enough. I'm telling you but you exactly. Exactly. And this is thing that I don't tell. This is the first time I will share it in your podcast. Do you know that aftermath of that incident uh data he personally called me? He personally called me and explained he say can you please you know ask your people ask the community please stop the boycott. I told him if you check my Facebook I only posted once about that incident that >> and my statement is very clear. I say I urge the authority to investigate.

[00:16:32]>> I am not the one who call for boycott.

[00:16:35]>> I never call for boycott. You can go go back and check. You go go back and check. No, I never asked people to boycott. You know who is the one who asked to boycott?

[00:16:43]>> Two person and a >> Okay.

[00:16:45]>> Only two. Did I? No. And in fact, Drik Chai, he invited me for the press conference where they, you know, with a group of company they apologize to the public.

[00:16:56]>> Yes. Twice they did it. Yeah.

[00:16:58]>> He invited me. But I never say I I never come up because if I do all these thing for popularity I must have say you know you know how much influence do I have you know until have to call me to apologize blah blah blah I don't I don't do that >> but but again just >> there's a lot of things that I don't justify there's a lot of thing that I don't want to explain to the public because >> that's fine but I'm going back to the because since you had brought it up actually I was not going to touch on KKM at all but but since you brought it up um you not going to that press conference isn't that a missed opportunity for you to appear to be a peacemaker or a peacekeeper for example Another opportunity that sort of was kind of surprising was when Deacon Loads uh publicly apologized to you for that when he posted your picture together with Zambino saying that you guys are calling for this that guy Ryan Ryan I think his name right the one who stepped on the Quran >> to be forgiven >> I thought okay that's a nice thing that you're saying okay look let's this boy made a mistake we all condemn that action but let's forgive him and move on but then you asked him but then he apologized to you publicly for saying that >> I think I think uh it's a two difference issues and two difference magnitude >> no it But why not you take the role of a peacekeeper, peacemaker?

[00:18:01]>> Okay. Number one, you see when you come from the point of why don't I appear >> but have you come from the first point by asking me a questions are you available on that day? Do you have any program first?

[00:18:13]>> Okay. So it's a >> no no you see this is where the stereotype come in right this is this is happening live right now where be it's true I didn't appear and I say I didn't I didn't attend the program. I it's true I didn't attend that press conference.

[00:18:26]It's true. But before you ask me by saying don't you think there is a good opportunity why don't you appear but before you ask why don't I appear why don't you ask me uh okay do you have any other commitment before that that make you couldn't appear you can have a positive and uh we say good thought about me about me absent but you choose to immediately jump into that by saying oh why don't you appear you know this is you you can show that you are a good person blah blah blah right but somehow it come but it's I'm fine with that.

[00:18:57]>> No, no. Why not make a statement after that? Once you're free, make a video or saying that I'm >> the reality is there's a lot of things that I don't want to tell people and there's no need for me to justify because you >> as as much as we try to justify what's going to happen is people going to keep on justifying and keep on attacking you and you have no time to do your own things until you have to keep on explaining yourself. For me, it's very simple. People who really know you, people who are rational, they do not need your justification or rational.

[00:19:28]Right? Like for example, just example, just example, you might have a good friend. I I we all have a good friends.

[00:19:34]>> Those who are very close to us, not only good friends, but really close to us.

[00:19:36]>> Yeah.

[00:19:37]>> Now, just out of nowhere, we not you ask them, bro, I need 10K.

[00:19:45]They are close to you. What they will say?

[00:19:47]>> Okay. If they have the money, they'll give it.

[00:19:49]>> They will say, when do you need it?

[00:19:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. You want me to transfer to wish account? Would they ask you why, bro? Why you need that money, bro? You crazy. No, no, no. Why? People who really know who is off, he know your value. He if they say you are a liar, bro, don't say 10,000. Even you want to borrow one or hey.

[00:20:07]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:08]>> But 10,000 is a huge amount. And I purposely say that 10,000. Why? Because people who really know you will not question you, will not will not ask for your justification. They know, okay, you need 10,000. Okay. This guy we know he never asked me for 10,000 before but now he suddenly askked me for 10,000 he must have a reason and he might have a lot of thing that he's thinking of so I'm not going to bother him with all this thing as a friend I have the 10,000 I will borrow it to him okay >> as simple as that right so for me I don't want to justify because haters going to hate and they will keep on looking at the loophole of what they can manipulate and keep on attacking you which is uh I'm not I'm not playing that game.

[00:20:44]>> No but uh to be honest with us I'm not attacking you. Yeah. No, no, I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the net.

[00:20:48]>> Yeah. But again, I don't think you can fall back on that uh that that reason because you are you have become an ambassador of your faith.

[00:20:56]>> Yeah.

[00:20:57]>> And so the way you carry yourself matters because whatever you do impacts the perception of your faith, right? And I I mean on this podcast we've had many conversations with Muslims, many like I lost count. In fact, we have few more engagements. We're going to discuss about ruling the country using Islamic Islam principles. We do that all the time. But when you don't take the role of being a peace peace again I'm not bothered about what the netizens say we don't care about them right as you say everybody has the opinion a right to an opinion that's unfortunate >> shouldn't you now take moves to be a peacemaker to say okay look to to to instead of always instigating sometimes practice restraint sometimes be merciful sometimes be you know practice humility >> uh humility sometimes we can say we are humility is not what you Today humility is what you practice and practice is what you see through dealing with the person dayto-day not on their public persona. That's why persona personality is coming from the root lot of Latin persona which is the mask.

[00:21:56]>> Right? Right now we are in front of camera.

[00:21:59]>> We might have a mask in front of us.

[00:22:01]>> We can say good things but behind are you really the same person >> right? So for me humility is not what people say about you in public what the public say about you because they do not know the real you. So that's why I don't justify there's no point. You just imagine we just imagine after this podcast I went on I go on my Facebook and I say you know I'm someone who is humble. You think what people going to say? People going to say that this guy is humble bragging man bro.

[00:22:29]>> No that's you don't have to say you're humble.

[00:22:31]>> No exactly. So humility is not something that you know we say about ourself. It's about how we carry oursel on a daily basis and with people that deal with us.

[00:22:42]people have faced us, deal with us. Now when you talk about restraint, now people talk about restraint as if that you should perform that restraint in your public uh discourse, in your public work. But they do not define the word restraint by saying that there are many things that this guy or this person can say and can do but yet he choose not to do but yet we do not see that as a restraint.

[00:23:08]>> Okay. Of course. Of course.

[00:23:10]>> Right. So again it come back to the words it come back to the definitions how do you see that words itself if you choose like for example I can say hey you should do more of this bro the fact that I'm not doing it is a restraint by itself do I have to tell people that uh I'm restraining myself it's like luckily you know this sofa is holding me I'm restraining myself from beating you no the fact that we are sitting here we're having a peaceful conversations >> peace again how do we achieve peace peace. A lot of people say they want peace. Of course, I love peace too. And I want peace too. And Islam mean peace too. But how peace should be and can be achieved. And the most misused words so far that as far as I know, I stand to be corrected here is the word harmony.

[00:23:58]Right.

[00:23:59]>> You don't believe in it?

[00:24:00]>> I believe in it. I I'm a strong believer in it. But how do you define harmony?

[00:24:05]>> I think everybody just living happily together, being able to mingle, being able to talk together. happy together. I agree with that. I agree with you. We're not. But now example if we talk about harmony right uh happy together again again happy is very subjective. Some people say money is not everything you know but some people who have no money they will say no money is everything for me. So happy is another thing but when you talk about harmony okay living together can we achieve uh total happiness in this world? I don't think so and I don't believe so that because this is a dystopia it's not utopia. Number one.

[00:24:39]Number two, harmony is that how do you achieve harmony? Okay, by tolerate. Now what is tolerate? Tolerate is not really mean that I have to accept every single thing. I accept the reality that this is who you are, this is who I am. As long what you do and what I do do not go against the constitutions and the law, then let it be. But of course, there will still be disagreement. There will still be disagreement. But the thing is that the problem is that we amplified this disagreement to become a racial issue to become a religious issue. That is where the problem is. No, but but I I think I I've heard you say this before as well, but falling back on the constitution uh negates one very big thing is that at the end of day we are humans and and we when there are other things that are not mentioned in the constitution. For example, the way when you talk about harmony, the way we handle one another. I I'm not a fan of the word tolerant. I'm not tolerant of a Muslim. I'm accepting of him.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. uh for instance uh I'm accepting of his way of life and I know I live around for example I give one one very simple example Friday yeah >> every Friday because I I I I like to be around the area of Brickfields and Bangsa every Friday the entry of Bangsa is jam I have never once in my life gone yeah you see jam >> I just know that's their life now they have to pray right in in in in brickfields every day year one one day a year you cannot enter brickfields it's a it's a gridlock >> oh why >> because they they have a Buddhist celebrate I think it's during the mahara.

[00:26:04]>> Yeah. M they'll do a march. They'll do a they'll walk and the whole brick fields.

[00:26:08]Everyone just park the car. Malay Chinese. We just park the car. Just accept it.

[00:26:11]>> I agree with you. You know that's harmony. You see there's harmony.

[00:26:14]Exactly. Sometimes the word tolerate and harmony is being interchanged and intertwined as if it is the same. It's not the same. Sometimes I cannot tolerate you. Honestly speaking, I cannot tolerate you. But I respect your right as a human being. Exact. Just example. Just example. Okay. Don't cut this and make >> I do nothing but nice to you know >> what did I do >> example example okay I I don't to put other people on the spot I put myself as example now I cannot tolerate you example just example I cannot tolerate you but I accept the fact that you have the right to coexist with me in this beautiful country number one >> I also believe in your right that stipulated in the constitution to practice your faith to do this to do that I cannot tolerate that Likewise, there might be a non-Muslim who cannot tolerate traffic j on on every Friday where the Muslims sometime they park three four layers which I have mentioned that and I have advised the Muslim in my social media multiple times. Please. No, >> but that's not the Muslim fault because poor town planning. But pray it's okay Friday.

[00:27:18]Or maybe some people cannot stand the the the sound of Azan. Okay. They cannot stand.

[00:27:23]>> Can they tolerate? No, they're not tolerating. They just said, "Okay, I have to accept the fact that okay, they're the majority. They stipulated. I cannot I don't I I cannot tolerate this sound." And that's why some people they choose when they buy property, they want to ask where is the closest mosque and the surah here.

[00:27:38]>> Right.

[00:27:40]>> Okay. I used to be a non-Muslim. So I asked the same question too >> because you don't want to wake up at 5:00 >> by the aan >> okay as a non-Muslim right so that's why they ask they cannot tolerate that's why they choose to stay in an area where further away from the mosque from the surah from the from the aan okay I understand that can they tolerate they cannot tolerate that's why they choose to stay away but they accept they're not voicing out their grievance publicly which might cause a bit more chaos as they say right >> but on a on a on a moral ground because we I I think what you're sort of alluding to is that there are bad apples in every every community. There are Indians who they are they are Muslims who don't like when a temple bell rings that you have that right but I've never met those Malays I've never met them Muslims so they we are all fine you know we're okay but the question to you is is that feeling that I tolerate although I I don't like the sound of aza and all that is that wrong it depends on the individual >> no but is it wrong is is it right or wrong >> no it's it's right it's right is that right it's right it's right >> how can that be right you you are being ignorant no okay when you Okay. I don't like these things. You tolerate. You You cannot tolerate.

[00:28:48]>> Huh?

[00:28:49]>> But you respect their right. You respect their right.

[00:28:52]>> No. But the act of not being able to tolerate. Is that right or wrong?

[00:28:55]>> Okay. If you were to say that right, can you tolerate uh criminal?

[00:29:01]>> No, that's not that's an apples and oranges comparison. We're talking about religion here. We're talking about the aan. How can you compare to criminal?

[00:29:06]>> As I say, if you say tolerate, I cannot accept that. I don't like it. Because why? Some people don't like it based on their moral principle of their guiding principle. What is their guiding principle? They have their own religion.

[00:29:18]Some religion can accept, some religion cannot accept. We accept that fact.

[00:29:22]>> This religion cannot accept Azan.

[00:29:23]>> No, no. I'm just saying in general. I'm not talking about Azan.

[00:29:26]>> I'm not talking about Azan. I'm just giving an example of Azan.

[00:29:29]>> No. I'm sorry because I have to because all religions don't say.

[00:29:31]>> You see, you see what when we when we say when I give the example of Azan. I'm just giving one example. Okay. Okay.

[00:29:38]There can be a lot of differences. There can be a lot of thing that we could not accept as an individual. As an individual regardless of what faith that we practice, right? So, but yet you respect their right to practice. You respect their right to practice. Okay?

[00:29:55]You respect their right to practice. As simple as that. Then we move on. And this is what Malaysia have been all about for the past uh close to 70 years, right? This is what Malaysia has been all about. So, we don't really have to go on keep on using the word tolerate.

[00:30:07]You see the I have an issues. This is where my issue is and I've been very consistent with this.

[00:30:13]Example, ether you agree or not is a different matter. You know in in Malaysia as a Muslim we have what they call as a fatwa.

[00:30:20]>> Of course. Yeah.

[00:30:21]>> And of course I can see a lot of comment as well talking about you know this fatwa this fatwa this fatwa. They make fun of it though they do not belong to is as a Muslim. Okay fine fine fine. I I I saw that. Now the thing is that you know there are differences of opinions when it come to certain ruling even in any any other faith I dare to say so as a student of I'm not a scholars as a student of comparative religion I would say in almost every religion there is a differences of opinion in a lot of matters >> of course >> even in Hinduism in Christianity in Buddhism you have different school of thought you have different denomination >> within their faith >> within within their faith >> okay I'm not talking about intra interfaith >> intra >> now example in Malaysia we No. Okay.

[00:31:03]There are people uh who follow the ruling of you cannot uh wish Merry Christmas for example.

[00:31:10]>> Okay. Merry Christmas. Of course you have a fatwa. They say okay it's permissible. Now it's like two. We make it two. Some people want to follow this fatwa which is legitimate. Another person they want to follow this fatwa which is legitimate too. But the problem is what is so much of a big hoo-ha when a Muslim refuse uh to wish someone merry Christmas. Why make it such a big huh?

[00:31:34]>> Because it's being politicized. Because when you focus on simple things like wishing merry Christmas, you remove the attention from the fact, let me just say this, you remove the attention from the fact that Islam was was credited as the reason for the birth of the Renaissance in Europe many many centuries ago. Islam is a scientifically advanced religion.

[00:31:54]Islam is given us a lot of inventions.

[00:31:56]Today paper is actually was introduced by Islamic traders. So when you focus >> algebra algorithms everything right >> so a lot of things. So why focus >> coffee coffee coffee he like coffee without the Muslim discover coffee. You don't have the coffee >> even toothbrush too. Even toothbrush.

[00:32:14]But what my point is if you're not focusing you're focusing on merry Christmas which is just a celebration.

[00:32:18]It's a commercial thing.

[00:32:19]>> That's right. That's why >> why not focus on the bigger thing?

[00:32:21]That's why we not uh big things for you, small things for you might not be a small things for other people. This is where we come to respect. Now, this is where we come to respect is that okay, living in a multicultural society like in Malaysia, I understand there are people who are like this, there are people like that. This is what we talk about pluralism. Pluralism is not so much of course there are two definitions of pluralism. One is that accepting all religions are the same and all religion lead to the same path and to the truth to the salvations which as a Muslim I deny that and I I reject that but there is another pluralism which I embrace totally in total what is the multi what is the pluralism that we are talking about the pluralism that we are talking about that me as a Muslim I don't want to represent everyone if not if not then you will have some people who comment that hey since then I allowed you to represent me okay I don't want to represent them >> now the pluralism that I embrace in totality is that the pluralism that to accept the fact that we are multi-religious, multicultural and we want to live in peace and harmony. Simple as that.

[00:33:24]Meaning I have to accept your differences and my differences. Now should I be angry if let's say I serve or maybe I invite which is which I don't I don't want this to happen and I hope nobody will do this which is you can just imagine what is going to happen if let's say the Muslim coming ala they invited a Hindu minister or politic politician to come and officiate the ceremony of Kurban >> is that wrong >> what do you think what will happen >> no of course it wouldn't it wouldn't make I wouldn't say wrong but it wouldn't make sense if if if a Hindu festival you invite. I'm like what?

[00:33:58]>> No. Exactly.

[00:33:58]>> Yeah. But but there's nothing wrong in it. But I'm just like why?

[00:34:00]>> But it's like people might come and say wow these Muslims are so insensitive.

[00:34:05]How can you invite a non-Hindu politicians or public figure to come and officiate this ceremony where you're going to slaughter the cow which is for the Hindu is a sacred animals. This is not a respect man. Now out of respect we don't invite him of course. No but so far alhamdulillah you don't see any Muslim. So far so far as far as I know we can we stand to be corrected because sometimes in every community you have uh bad ships right you have a black ships now but so far you don't see the Muslim when it come to this kind of celebration they invite uh the Hindus politicians or the Hindu community to come and celebrate together >> because you serve beef so >> exactly serve beef or maybe you have to slaughter the cow >> so likewise why can't the same why can't the same based on that the same religious sensitivity why can't the same being respected to this Muslim a group of Muslim who choose not to wish Merry Christmas.

[00:34:57]>> No, I'm I'm not saying that uh it's wrong. I'm saying everybody has a freedom of choice. They can choose if if you feel that you don't want to wish C's Christmas, fine. You you don't it's fine. It's up to you. That's your faith, right? But my thing is when you I'm talking about the people such as from your group who are the ambassadors of the faith. I think a more constructive way and a better way for the religion is to focus on the amazing things that Islam has done. Talk about how we can govern the country better using Islamic principles. Talk about the efficiency of zakat, the concept of zakat. Talk about these and Islam has a lot of principles that me being a leftist a leftist right it for example zakat is sort of like a socialist principle. It's a redistribution of wealth. Focus on that and how relevant Islam is. Why not that?

[00:35:40]And and and to me I think that would be a better and just to to move forward a bit on this next question. Do you think it is to achieve harmony to achieve the plurism that you talk about it would be better to focus on the commonalities between each faith as opposed to the differences?

[00:35:55]>> Yeah, commonalities and follow the constitutions and the law of the land.

[00:35:58]As simple as that.

[00:35:59]>> What does that have to do with if I say if we have a conversation now? Yes. So if you don't so tell for example I tell you I said >> what what happened what happened today is that people talk about use the word peace and harmony coexist in in a peaceful way in a harmony way but while neglecting the fact that okay someone have to sacrifice something their their own principle >> why I don't understand why >> okay simple okay uh I give you an example if we talk about now if me me I refuse to participate in any celebrations. Is that wrong on my >> That's not wrong. It's up to you.

[00:36:36]>> But but okay, of course I I I appreciate your answer. But when you see on the social media what the general public will say >> I mean everybody has an opinion.

[00:36:48]>> Try not to deny it.

[00:36:50]>> I'm not denying it. There are bad apples. There are people who they will be ignorant and >> Exactly. But those comment are being highlighted >> and those of course >> those comment are being highlighted and those comment are being make mainstream.

[00:37:01]>> Okay. Yeah. Because it's just the way the world is. Yeah.

[00:37:04]>> Okay. It is being make mainstream as if Muslim do not belong to this modern world just because I refuse because I choose this religious fatwa which is legitimate for me to follow. But while they asking us to respect you know our sensitivities, our religious sensitivities but yet why don't the same principle they apply by respecting my choice in following the principle that I'm following.

[00:37:31]>> That's fine. Go ahead.

[00:37:32]>> Exactly. That's fine. Exactly.

[00:37:33]>> But that's not my question. My question is why not focus on the commonalities?

[00:37:36]Why the differences?

[00:37:37]>> Focus on the commonality. But what what really bind us today? What really bind us in Malaysia today? We're not >> bind us is our constitution is our law of the land.

[00:37:46]>> Exactly. No you you you by saying what binds us is the constitution and again I I want to uh this be the last then we move on to the next segment because we seen we going around this but when you say that >> because this this this conversation is very exciting.

[00:37:59]>> No I I think we can do three hours if we could.

[00:38:01]>> That's why Victor T have uh the conversation with me is around two and a half hours.

[00:38:06]>> Let's beat that. No but again when you fall back to the constitution you say no that's the law of the land. It sounds a very dispassionate type of claim because what about compassion? What about being uh respectful? What about being inquisitive? There are many Muslim scholars in the past who have written books about their interpretation of Hinduism, but they are still Muslim.

[00:38:26]I've interviewed Shared Alatas who talks very well about different faiths, but he's a Muslim. He writes a lot. He talks about Islam and all this. What is so wrong about celebrating commonalities?

[00:38:35]Like you say, like you say, you know, uh the person who opened up Constantinople for the Muslim is Sut Mohamad Alfati.

[00:38:42]>> Yeah.

[00:38:43]>> Now, is he known as a scholars?

[00:38:46]>> Not to my knowledge.

[00:38:47]>> He's not. He's not. He's not a scholars.

[00:38:49]>> But yet, he's being known as someone who opened up Constantin Paul, which is Istanbul. Istanbul today. Now, meaning every Muslim, no, I I I don't to speak for other religions. Every Muslim, they have their role to play. You have some people who are scholars who are specializing in studying about certain disciplines because the the disciplines of knowledge in Islam is so right that you have the usic, you have massive shar you have so many things you have the political side, you have the economic side, you have so many things. So now for me I know my place and my place is not on the scholarly part. It's not on the scholarly part. Right? So my my my my place is more on the activism part.

[00:39:26]My place is accusing about >> as I say what are you fighting about?

[00:39:30]What hold upholding the constitutions and the law of the land?

[00:39:34]>> True. How how how are you doing that by your actions?

[00:39:37]>> What have you seen? You have you you have done a lot of research about me. So obviously you can see that unless unless unless unless you could not see that unless >> No, but please explain because uh you know like if if I go by social media posting I don't see that much.

[00:39:51]>> I'm not being disrespectful. I'm just stating an obvious no worry. No worry.

[00:39:55]uh again because just like a psychological part when we choose to buy a certain brand of a car all of a sudden we can see a lot of the same car >> appear although the same car is there all this while but we didn't see it but right now our brain choose to see so that's why I say we choose to see what we want to see it's not that that things doesn't exist it's just that we choose not to not to see it so that's why um I would rather than answering those questions like seems like I'm justified I think I don't have to justify people want to follow me, they follow me. And I never ask people you must follow me. If not, you are this, you are that. So if they want to find a >> No, but I'm not asking you that. That's the thing. I'm not talking about that, right? I agree with you that you will do what you want to do.

[00:40:37]>> And how people view you is up to them.

[00:40:39]We we we can't I can't control the reactions to this interview. I can't control anything. I can only control myself. But what I'm asking is you talk about a lot of no tolerance and respecting my my faith and respecting my differences and all that. I wonder my question is too number one is why aren't you focusing on the commonalities because for example like say if you compare Hinduism and Islam one of the commonalities just top of my head now is that both of us have the concept of uh sha and narak narak sorryh but but of course the the the way is for for us it's a bit different because we believe after your soul dies you go to either shura or you go to naraka which is mentioned in our gut puran before you go back into the cycle of life whereas for Islam that's the end right so that but that concept is there. So you see if I talk to you now people like oh wow really yeah >> okay there's something but that doesn't make me less of a Hindu that doesn't make you less it makes us have a constructive conversation >> do you read my articles about all these commonalities >> no I did not >> which we have published at least no less than 100 articles about the commonalities >> we do and it's just that people refuse to see it >> as simple as that >> it's if if they say >> no but you yourself now in your answers you're not talking about commonalities you're talking about differences you're highlighting differences you're not saying that such no you said it you said that you know you should respect my right to not go for something you should respect the differences and all that but I'm saying what >> what is common there the common there is the guiding principle is about respect right >> yeah respect definitely >> but respect cannot be only one-sided respect cannot be I am the one that need to respect but when it come to my right there's no respect needed no I'm not talking about that I always upholding the commonalities if you look at the uh all those article that we have published as I say no less than 100 over articles that we have published. Okay. Even when I write about my book, okay, a chinaasu or kiasi.

[00:42:28]>> Awesome title by the way.

[00:42:30]>> Now people just again we always say you know it's nice to say this that don't judge a book by the cover but somehow people they never read my book but they just say oh you see this China you see he's criticizing his own people again.

[00:42:45]Wait wait wait wait wait have you read my book it's over five. It took me years to write the book which is around 500 over pages and you just judge it based on the cover and you say h no but in fact I'm not here to promote the book in my book I am encouraging even the because the target audience surely will be Muslim right about the commonalities that the Chinese culture and the Chinese philosophy with the Islamic cultures >> of course all >> of course when we talk about kasu people will have a negative perception oh kasu ah this Of course, but look at what I say about kiasu in the book. Look at what I say about kiasi in the book. Look at that. Read. If they read it, if they disagree, tell me. I'm fine with that.

[00:43:30]But they will realize that I speak a lot of good things about the that practice.

[00:43:34]Again, the same kiasu and kiasi have a different interpretation depends on the context. But what I choose to do is that to tell them this is the interpretations. This is the interpretations. And in fact I bring up if less uh if I'm not mistaken if my memory didn't fail me uh no less than 20 20 proverbs of the Chinese prover which is similar to the Islamic context is that commonality is that similarity >> but that's race and religion it's not religion and religion >> race and religion because Chinese you see when people talk about um Chinese I'm a Chinese so although people deny fine I have no problem with that up to them which I'm >> I can I can endorse either Chinese I mean I'm sitting right Yeah.

[00:44:16]>> Even people who accuse me not not being Chinese enough, they might not be able to speak Cantonese and Mandrin like me.

[00:44:21]>> Oh, you can speak both Cantonese.

[00:44:22]>> I can speak Hakka. I can speak Hoken too.

[00:44:23]>> My goodness.

[00:44:24]>> Okay. So, people who accuse me of not being Chinese enough just because for the fact that they eat pork that I don't eat pong to make them more Chinese. But somehow they feel that I can speak Cantonese fluent than them. In fact, when I go to Hong Kong as well, people will say, "Are you from Hong Kong? Why your Cantonese is so good?" I don't think my Cantonese is good. But somehow they appreciate. Okay, fine.

[00:44:41]Alhamdulillah. So coming back to that where are we just now? You see you deterred to the pock issues.

[00:44:47]>> Okay fine but let's let's let's move forward because by the way we spent one hour talking we only finished five questions. So >> how many questions do you have?

[00:44:54]>> Uh 40 I think.

[00:44:56]>> Then you have to make a few other episodes.

[00:44:58]>> No fair enough. Okay let's >> because you limit you limit your podcast to only one hour.

[00:45:01]>> No no we can do more. Don't worry. So okay >> we think he going to beat your podcast.

[00:45:05]>> Yeah. So in your pamphlet you have a pamphlet that I saw that you give out when you do your public engagement. The pamphlet is called Say No to Racism.

[00:45:11]Right. And thank you for sharing by the way. You shared with me. Now in it you say righteousness is the only quality that makes uh comes virtuous uh in the sight of Allah. Not race, skin color, lineage or country.

[00:45:24]>> Now within the context of Islam, righteousness means, and please correct me if I'm wrong, >> living in a way that is morally upright, sincere, just, compassionate, and obedient to God. It is not only about rituals and outward uh uh outward showings. Islam teaches that through righteousness combines faith, character, intentions, and actions. Yeah.

[00:45:43]>> Have your actions whether alleged or connected to you or what you have said inspired righteousness among your followers.

[00:45:50]>> Is my actions?

[00:45:51]>> Yeah.

[00:45:52]>> Well, you have to ask them. I cannot.

[00:45:54]No. No. But let's do >> we know I think I think the same the same way can can be asked about you know did your podcast really inspire them?

[00:46:01]You have people who like it and don't like it.

[00:46:03]>> No but when you see the comments you must feel that things things should be better. You you you are not a normal person. you you are somebody of a respected person. You are an influencer.

[00:46:12]I don't mean that in a lifestyle sense.

[00:46:13]You're a religious ambassador. You you you must see that okay I I should change my way. So I should inspire better behavior. Uh how if I were to tell you how if yeah just how if that I have to tell you that uh wherever I go I will have people uh stop me and thanks me and say that they have become a better Muslim because of me because of what I have said because of what I have done that inspired them to be a better Muslim >> okay >> but those are the thing that I don't share but because that sound like a humble bragging but since to answer your question >> you know those thing do happened.

[00:46:50]>> But okay, but again um you you I I want to go back to the comment section again.

[00:46:54]Let's let's let's go straight.

[00:46:55]>> Can can we can we not asking about the comment section because comment section is beyond me. I I I will prefer that you ask me about the thing that I say that I do rather than the things that people say that I do that is beyond like you say beyond your control, right? How people perceive you is beyond your control is beyond my control. what people choose to say. Of course, we can choose the same thing from other news portal. But okay, but is that an admission to you from you that your actions you you your actions or whatever you say or you put forth on a public platform? uh you are not you don't you not concern yourself on on how people how you make >> the best I can do the best that I can do w enough is that whenever I write something for some people when they read my post is that it might take them less than a minute to read my entire status but what they didn't know is that sometime it took me hours to write the post why I have to consider from every angle to make sure this is for me number one Islamically correct it must be Islamically correct yeah Right. So Islamically correct then are we talking about the legally correct as well? It should be legally correct as well. So that before I put up >> do you consider whether it it it may offend it may hurt it may incite >> I I can't stop people from feeling offended because it's a feeling. I can feel offended with everything people say but would it would >> but sorry to say that sounds a bit irresponsible right you are you have a platform you you have hundreds of millions of people following you. No has you can say sound irresponsible but will other people consider my feeling before they write anything because they believe that's the truth there's right things to do >> but to be fair on your personal social media your accounts nobody writes anything against you they all support what you say but they you but they support it in using negative >> terms but at least I I'm better than some of your guests who appear here that I don't limit my comment to my followers some of your guests here only limit the comment to those people who support They do not even allow people who criticize them who insult them. But yet you can see in my in my uh comment comment section that people insult me.

[00:48:58]People criticize me a lot, right? You can see that right >> in your comment. I I I did not see I saw people lot a lot of majority of them supporting you >> of course but at least my uh social media is open to all.

[00:49:11]>> Okay. But unlike some of your guests which I don't want to name choose to limit only to the fans and they don't allow criticism in their in their own uh social media. So in terms of being liberal I think I'm more liberal man.

[00:49:23]>> I I I I I mean of fact fair I mean the fact that you are here itself I think shows that you're very liberal and open to discussion which I love. I I open to discussions with people like you that's uh rational that we can talk we can disagree but we still have a very uh respectful conversations but because I believe that after this podcast ended as well I believe that we still have things that we will not be able to agree on which for me is fine this is this is what the conversation is all about fine completely fine >> and this is what I encourage the public to do I discourage people from having a closed door where we just talk from our our our end we close the door and then throw anything and then let it go. No, for me, no. For me is that we have to talk about it. How uncomfortable it is, we have to talk about it. But it's like, >> but again, you you you say that, okay, and and I do believe you because the fact that you are here proves that to me, right? But then again, a lot of the comments and I know you don't want to talk with comments, but you have to see, you have to understand that some of them are very close. Some of them appear to put labels on people. Label use very uh insightful, insensitive, disrespectful terms >> where they are not attacking what a person said. They are attacking the person, the identity of that person.

[00:50:34]>> Uh after after this podcast ended, >> you're going to delete all your comments.

[00:50:37]>> No, no, no, no. I'm not going to delete the comments. Uh but most of the time I do read the comments most of the time.

[00:50:41]>> Yeah, me too. Yeah.

[00:50:42]>> Okay. Number one. Number two, do you know those people who've been blocked by my admins in my Facebook page? Majority of them with the account name of a Muslim. Majority are being blocked by me is from the Muslim.

[00:50:54]>> Why do you block them?

[00:50:55]>> No, for me I have my rules. No accusations, no insult. You can see you can check on YouTube as well. I have made a lot of comments and public statement. I don't agree with Muslim calling. Even I talk I talked to Jag Chandra as well. I disagree when he called the Indian community as bottle ketchup bottle ketchup. I disagree with that. Well, I can choose to be silent. I disagree when Muslim call the Indian par I don't I disagree. I disagree. Why?

[00:51:24]Because for me when I already when we already advise you not to say that, not to say this and you keep on repeat the same thing, I will block you. Or you write a waggle words in my comment sections the admins have the right to to just block.

[00:51:37]>> Okay, fair enough.

[00:51:37]>> For me, you're Muslim or non-Muslim doesn't matter to me. For me, I have my way. It's the way how you behave. That's why most of the people majority of people that I block in my social media are Muslim.

[00:51:47]>> So since you said uh you Okay, fine.

[00:51:50]Since you you don't want to talk about individual comments, then let's move forward then.

[00:51:52]>> Yeah. Because if not, it's not it's not going to end.

[00:51:55]>> It's not going to end. Yeah. Yeah. So again, I want to go back to your pamphlet. So a very interesting belief or uh statement made in the pamphlet was boasting about lineage and ancestors is forbidden in Islam.

[00:52:06]>> Yeah. Since all people descended from Adam and his wife, no one is better than anyone else because of the family they were born in or the status they inherited. The only criterion is superiority in faith and religious deeds. Does this mean that you as an individual or your organization uh does not believe in the concept of race? does not believe that for example like you are you saying that the the the our communities such as the Malays and all that should abandon their heritage and their >> I I believe that you have misinterpret that sentence >> okay >> because that sentence doesn't say that you cannot be identified as a race example clearly in the Quran the same chapter that you read just now surah hudra chapter 49:3 >> okay in the in the okay oh mankind you are being created from a male and a female And Allah created you, okay, into a different tribes, >> different tribe and race.

[00:53:02]>> So that you may know one another.

[00:53:03]>> So you may know one another.

[00:53:04]>> Now, do I choose to be born as a Chinese? No, I don't. You born as a Indian? No, you don't. Malay? No, they don't. Nothing wrong to be identified as a Chinese Muslim, as a Indian, as a Malay, as a Sabahan, whatever. No, no, no problem with that. The problem with racism is that if you look into the dictionary's uh definition is that racism is that when you claim claim your race is better just by the virtue of you being born into the race.

[00:53:32]Me as a Chinese I'm better than the Indian. Why? Because I'm fairer. No, you can't. Come on, bro. This skin color is not >> beautiful. Beautiful.

[00:53:40]>> It's not from you.

[00:53:41]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:41]>> I can't I can't say that.

[00:53:43]>> Yeah.

[00:53:44]>> But but the Indian might say no no you know my darker skin you know tall duck and handsome. Of course you love it.

[00:53:51]>> So, so by that virtue you cannot say because I'm a Chinese I'm better than you because you are Indian you are better than because you are Malay you're better. No no no that is what the words mean that there is no superiority when it come to race and your lineages because you know my father is so and so.

[00:54:06]Who care about your fathers? Because ultimately on the day of judgment Allah will not ask what is your fathers? What is your lineage?

[00:54:11]>> I agree with that but >> it's about your pieties. No, but you must understand that when you say this thing in the Malaysian perspective, it's almost like an affront to things like uh NEP. It's almost a front to the special privilege to the Malays. It's almost a front of the Bingutra concept because you are saying all races are equal. That means all these concepts are wrong.

[00:54:28]>> Okay. Again, when we say I didn't say that all races are equal whatsoever. I just saying in terms of boasting the superiority.

[00:54:36]>> No, but if if we all come from Adam, then we are the same.

[00:54:39]>> Okay. Exactly. I know where you're going into. you're going into the NEP issues blah blah blah we can talk about that no problem I'm not I'm not >> a bit of fun here >> can can because I'm not someone who run away from all these issues >> okay so basically you're saying that >> I have addressed these issues as well >> no but so so you're saying that based on this pamphlet based on this thing right see you said no one is better than anyone else that's that's what you said this what is here that means that we should all stand on equal footing is that what you are for >> in the sight of God everyone is equal >> so who so if if in the sight of God we all equal on on the land we must be equal on his earth we must be equal. No.

[00:55:15]Okay. Because now when you see into this uh into this perspective, I believe that you're bringing into the other social contract issues, NEPs. Okay. Because you say you have 40 over questions. This >> no no this is not I I'm not going to that this is just one question please.

[00:55:29]I'm not touching all that but that this is just something because when I read that the first thing that came to my mind I was like oh wait a minute he's talking about we are all equal. That means this is not this is that means concepts like any bum put status all is is not right in in the sight of God because we are all equal. If you're saying that all race we are all the same because we all come from Adam then these concepts cannot stand.

[00:55:47]Okay. When you talk about that kind of concepts, right? Okay. I believe as a Muslim, as a Muslim, I believe in what Allah says that everyone's is equal in the sight of God. Either you are male or female, okay, it doesn't matter. Okay, number one. Number two is that what matter to God the most the most is your righteousness, is your piety. Now number three when you come to the things that you name it just now NEP the built right right that is coming to the governing of the country the policy of the country right which which is agreed upon by the founding fathers not me not you the same thing I have mentions to in other podcasts as well I say you can ask me about this if you dislike it if you disagree with it okay fine no problem just the way we abolish IA before it's because of public pressure is because a lot of people they demanding the government the Najib government to abolish the ISA. So therefore today we don't no longer have ISA although our closest neighbor which is is Singapore they still have ISA though right >> they still have so >> yeah so so we abolish it but still the so-cal our modern neighbors they still have an ISA with them okay fine we're not going to talk about that so I say if you dislike certain law or certain uh constitutions fine that that is your right but do it the proper channel no point of questioning me and asking uh you know should we do this you know why don't you call for this >> no I'm I'm not saying that Again I want to highlight because you in you you talked about you you you said that it's a matter of governance but the Islam is the religion of the federation.

[00:57:20]>> Islam is a rel of the federation but >> so shouldn't we be governed by Islamic principles?

[00:57:24]>> If we govern by Islamic principle will your audience be happy and agree with that?

[00:57:28]>> Yes I I because the right principles.

[00:57:30]Yes. The principles that ensure us to be prosperous.

[00:57:34]>> This is this is this is this is where the issue is going to be the right.

[00:57:37]Okay. The right the right principle. Can we agree on what is the right principle?

[00:57:42]>> Principles that allow me to prosper for my for my children to have a a good life in this country. Why not?

[00:57:48]>> Oh, again until we define the fine line.

[00:57:52]When we say prosper, >> okay, >> money.

[00:57:55]>> Okay. Some people say money. But when you look into Bhutan, a country that so small, the the governments, the the king say, "No, no, no. For us, prosperity is about to the ability to manage to preserve our jungle and our forest.

[00:58:11]>> That's fine. That's fine. Each country, but that's also part of economy. You have each country have their own definitions, right? So when we say the right principle again trust, you don't have to trust me. And I I seldom use the word trust me except in certain circumstances when we talk about right principle. We will always until the day of judgment until the day we die. We going to disagree with what is right. What is right because coming from different faith we have a lot of things in common similar but we also have things that >> I don't think that's fair for you to say because Islam has been used to govern many empires many nations and they are doing very well. What what what the public will say if they say we say if they say we say we if they say we say guiding uh using Islam >> as a guiding principle >> what if I were to say okay then the first thing we should do is that close down the uh beer factories >> see that's the problem that is thank you for saying that because in Malaysia why the non non-Muslims may always feel a bit threatened or fearful when they say governed by Islamic principles is because in Malaysia that's the focus the focus is gambling saying uh thing but unfortunately Malaysia the con the the way our population is made we have multiple uh different races and religions I'm just I'm just giving you one example >> no but but for example like you look at the what there's so many states that were governed very well look at if you I'm sure you have read the stories of what's his name Saludin when he conquered and how he governed how what was his stance against taxes yeah >> what was his stance against other religions why not talk about that why do you all keep talking about drinking, gambling. These are not key things.

[00:59:55]>> I seldom highlight the closing of factories. I'm just giving an example just to trigger the conversation.

[01:00:00]>> But when you say this again, it plays to that stereotype whenever people the non-Muslim oh gambling. No, but why not talk about other things?

[01:00:07]>> Now when we talk about Islamic principle in terms of economy, in terms of others governments, governance >> there are many good examples.

[01:00:14]>> Yeah, there are many good example. Did we say that? I do. Me personally, I do say that.

[01:00:19]>> You just said something else. I that's why I say I purposely say that thing just to trigger the conversation because I know that will play to their ears.

[01:00:28]>> But that's not fair. Come on. Let's have a we are not here to we're not here for the views. We are here to have a >> because because if I if I were to say that you know how many articles I have rule, how many things I have say about uh the government governance, how should a country being run using Islamic principle. People say well but we don't see it. Well just the fact that you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[01:00:46]>> Okay. But let's let's now just just a bit before we move on. Let's go back to the pamphlet now again to what you said again because you have not answered my question.

[01:00:54]>> How many questions on the pamphlet?

[01:00:55]>> But I think a few more but you you you you have not answered the question. So when you say we are all from Adam does that mean that racial privileges do not agree with that sentiment that that statement that you made in your pamphlet >> racial >> racial privilege racial superiority does not agree with that principle in Islam that we are all the son of Adam thus we are all the same. Well again again I'm answering your questions sir I'm answering your questions the definitions of it is that race okay everyone is born equal equal no sins we are we do not born with any original sin nothing so we are born equal in the sight of god that's why the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him he say every child is born in the state of fra pure >> okay is the parents who make them as the Jews the Christian and the zorosians right so in the sight of god they are all equal except the piety. Now when it come to racial superiority, what how do you define racial superiority? Meaning getting more privileges or what?

[01:01:56]>> Yeah, more privilege.

[01:01:58]>> Now is getting more privileges uh wrong based on who?

[01:02:03]>> Based on Islam. I'm asking the simple question based on Islam is racial privilege one over the other in Islam.

[01:02:09]>> Exactly. Again, this is a common question. I'm going to answer you. Now, this is where you're coming from from one angle. But as we say when we talk about Islam, we should look it in totality in a holistic way.

[01:02:22]>> Okay.

[01:02:23]>> Now what's going to happen? Let me quote what I'm answering your question. Let me quote what Yling has to say in his book the Chinese dilemma. Have you read that book?

[01:02:30]>> No, I've not read that book.

[01:02:30]>> Okay. He's as a Chinese as a Chinese businessman uh have business in Hong Kong and Malaysia and Singapore as well.

[01:02:36]He wrote in his book Chinese dilemma as a response to Ton Mahade uh the Malle dilemma. He published this book in 2003.

[01:02:42]If you read inside this book, he raised all the same questions that you raised.

[01:02:46]He raised a question and then he himself give the answer. Okay. He say well the Chinese grievance on this NEP on the Malay right on the Malay Tonka blah blah blah blah blah blah blah but somehow he say he say okay he say that but somehow if he say if you say this is discrimination I would say if this is a discrimination this is a positive discrimination because the government any country they have to balance out between >> prosperity >> you just imagine you you still remember what happened in 97 79 8 98 in Indonesia.

[01:03:20]>> Oh, the they had that that civil war.

[01:03:22]Huh?

[01:03:23]>> The racial riots.

[01:03:24]>> Racial riots. Yeah. The civil rights.

[01:03:25]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

[01:03:26]>> You know the brilliance. Again, your audience can disagree and you can disagree with me. Last I I I was a non-Muslim before. Coming from that perspective, you can see the disparity of wealth is so great in Indonesia >> that caused that kind of chaos. And the foresight of our founding father last time after this 13th May okay is that they do not they foresee if let's say something so small back in 13th May 1963 69 can happen now what happened if certain people are still being left behind. No, come on. We we are not talking about that and I want to highlight here you because you you you seem to be putting words my mouth. I'm not I have no grieviances with the bubra any you please you do what you want because I think the world has moved forward. We are more of a free market a more globalized world.

[01:04:17]>> So I don't I I think we live in a world if you want to succeed just go and work hard you'll get it right. Of course there are it's there are other issues that we we I don't touch now but >> again okay fine if you don't want to answer fine >> no no no >> in the in the comment section this is the last comment I'll use and I'm using it because you did not answer question let me just say this >> I answer you not because why when you talk about that why I use that example >> but you my question is simple because you're talking I'm asking by the from the side of Allah from the perspective of Islam is racial superiority agreed that's it >> racial superiority is wrong superiority is wrong obviously I answering you right but when you talk about other things about the NP the bura that is where my explanations come into the pictures as I say I think I have answered your questions very early on where I say no race can claim superiority simple >> okay fair enough right >> so okay just to just the last nail on that right again and I know you don't like talking about comments but this is just one that I found on this just one hold on Ramli Joho his name he works at Buutra commerce bank Badhat so I say the name and because to show you That is not a fake profile by is his statement right or wrong based on your pamphlet.

[01:05:32]>> I said this before. Yes, >> he's wrong.

[01:05:34]>> Yeah, >> thank you.

[01:05:35]>> That was Fid's wrong again. Uh good good spot. And uh firstly >> one hours it become two and a half hours. So witness we about to beat that podcast. If we didn't stop it I think we're going to pass four hours.

[01:05:46]>> If you you are uh his daughter I apologize. It is my fault. He didn't do anything wrong.

[01:05:52]>> But guys, again, thank you so much for watching. Please share. Again, Fidos, thank you for coming.

[01:05:56]>> Thank you so much.

[01:05:57]>> Thank you so much. Thank you so much, guys. Please share your thoughts in the comment section. It's all about having robust discussions, a bit of fun, a bit of needling here and there, but please share your thoughts. We love and as always, we have many guests coming your way, guys. Stay tuned. Take care. Have a good day. Bye.