Is the "Maduro Playbook" Coming to Cuba? The Inconvenient Truth About Al Gore, & More | RCPod

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[00:00:01][music] >> Welcome to Rubicon Politics on Sirius XM for Thursday, May 21st. I'm Andrew Walworth and joining me are RCP president and co-founder Tom Bevan and Washington bureau chief Carl Cannon.

[00:00:17]Well, yeah guys, yesterday federal prosecutors indicted Raul Castro. He is the 94-year-old brother of Fidel. Uh, this is in connection with the downing of two planes 30 years ago that resulted in the four in four deaths. Uh, so here is acting Attorney General Todd Blanche announcing the charges in Florida yesterday.

[00:00:39]Many families here know the cost of oppression. I've heard stories over the past week and past months.

[00:00:45]Every one of them heartbreaking.

[00:00:47]They know that the pain caused by the regime did not stop at the island's shores. And today's indictment, while it does not bring back the murdered victims, it makes a statement.

[00:00:59]The United States government has not forgotten these innocent men who were shot out of the sky.

[00:01:07]Uh, so Tom, that's part of the message, but the other message I think was, hey, look at what we did to Maduro, we could do this to you. Um, what do you make of the announcement and what does it mean for Cuban policy?

[00:01:22]And so Trump was asked about this and whether this meant there was going to be an escalation. He was like, no, no, no, there we're not going to escalate and basically like they've lost control of Cuba. Cuba's a mess, which is true, by the way, but look, I know this was symbolic, but in some ways it's it's genius.

[00:01:40]Um, because, you know, he's 94 years old, he's probably not going to be able to stand trial in the US, but it does it puts a spotlight on and and by the way, I'm not sure this is the Maduro playbook necessarily. I mean, could they could they indict, you know, the current leaders and accomplice and go in and grab him? Maybe, but to me this is more about just symbolism and sending the signal both to the people in Cuba, but also the Cuban expats and the Cuban Americans who live in Miami who are who who have connections to that island and can energize the populace to rise up and and free themselves and try and help institute a change of government.

[00:02:20]And and so in that way I think it is it is effective in sending those signals as a symbol to both Cubans here in America, but also Cubans on that island that hey, we need your help to do this. We are here for you. We haven't forgotten about you and we're going to take steps in the future, but we need your help. Mhm.

[00:02:40]How do you see it that way?

[00:02:41]Well, I [clears throat] would never um say anything >> [snorts] >> supportive of the regime in Cuba or of the movie stars and lefties and um useful idiots who over the years traveled down there to kiss Fidel Castro's ring.

[00:02:57]Um but but this this indictment it raises a question in my mind, Andy.

[00:03:04]So these this 30 years ago um you know, these people were killed. It was sad, but this isn't this and this indictment is brought by an administration that has conducted more than 60 lethal strikes of its own in the Caribbean and killed nearly 200 people.

[00:03:23]Most of them were drug dealers. Um most of them I think smuggling marijuana, but among those 193 people I imagine there are four or five >> [clears throat] >> fishermen who were, you know, just dragged out into the sea. You know, 30 years from now um is the World Court or Cuba or or or or China, you know, somebody going to indict Pete Hegseth, you know, when he's in his mid-90s uh on these charges? It it just seems to me uh sort of backdoor diplomacy. It seems to me somewhat hypocritical in in this instance when we're when we're doing what when the United States military is doing what it is doing in the Caribbean right now. And I just I don't I they don't make that connection, but I made it instantly and I think others in the world are going to make it. I think if if this administration wants to finally do what every administration since, you know, John F. Kennedy has dreamed of doing, which is bring freedom and dignity to the people of Cuba, I'm for that. I just I I think there's a a more direct way to do it, a less hypocritical way to do it, a way that to do it that doesn't bring our >> [laughter] >> bring the Trump administration's own behavior to front of mind. Well, I I I I I actually made the connection like you did I think when I when I saw the entire man I was like, well, what about the uh This is cuz we've talked about this before, but I mean when they were shooting these drug dealers, there's some evidence that they were killing them after they had were clinging to the wreckage of their boats, which is a Go ahead and say it, Andy. I know you're dying to.

[00:04:52]>> [laughter] >> and an international war crime I think is what you said at the time.

[00:04:56]>> It is a war crime. I'm sorry. I I hate I hate to break it to you guys, but it is it is a war crime.

[00:05:01]Um, however, >> time, Tom, you didn't notice. You're right. All right.

[00:05:06]>> [laughter] >> with the law school and international law.

[00:05:09]Can't wait for the YouTube viewers to get a hold of that. Go ahead. [laughter] Um, we did have this other interesting development here where Axios reported this. This is a report that the was from unnamed source claiming that Cuba was positioning drones uh, 300 drones they acquired with the possibility of them attacking Guantanamo Bay, naval ships, and Key West, Florida, which got my attention because God knows what that would happen if they attacked Key West. Key West might fire back. Um, but with bottles of rum. Exactly.

[00:05:45]>> you do have sort of this ratcheting up of of sort of Elsie's rhetorical pressure, right? I mean, if we're going to say, "Oh, they are an imminent threat. Oh, you know, he's he's a murderer."

[00:05:59]Are we laying the predicate, Tom, for more than just pressure at some point in an actual military strike?

[00:06:07]Maybe. But look, I mean, Cuba, what a seriously, I mean, that would be a suicide mission. They don't want to do that. They're not going to do that. And I still envisioning like a little Jimmy Buffett armada, you know, heading >> [laughter] >> heading off to Havana.

[00:06:22]Um No, that would be that would be stupid.

[00:06:25]Look, the administration is ratcheting up the pressure on Cuba. And you Rubio gave a speech on Cuban independent What was it? Cuban Independence Day? What was it, Carl?

[00:06:34]>> Yeah. Yeah. Um and and Trump released this statement. And so, they are definitely, you know, I mean, there's a lot going on in the world, obviously, but they're still focused and and keeping Cuba at the forefront. And I think what they would like And Rubio did say the other day, too. He said, "Look, I'd love for for there to be, you know, the people in this in the current regime to come to their senses and deal with us. Um but he said, "I don't think that's possible."

[00:07:01]And obviously, they've been looking for someone inside the regime, this sort of transitional Delsy Rodriguez figure that could uh that they could promote and and who would have the you know, authority uh and and enough command to be able to displace the current regime and then start working with the US.

[00:07:19]If that doesn't happen, eventually, we might get to a point where, you know, we're we're involved, if we're not already involved covertly in trying to get this regime out of there. But do I see a a military strike on Cuba in the near future? Mhm. No, not [clears throat] necessarily. I don't I don't I don't think I mean, there's a lot of talk about the Maduro playbook and all that.

[00:07:39]And I could be wrong. We'll probably go in there and kidnap somebody tomorrow and yes. Maybe by the time we're off the air, Tom.

[00:07:45]>> I don't yeah, I don't see that's in the in the sort [clears throat] of near term. It might be it might be eventually, but not in the near term.

[00:07:52]Well, Andy, you know, Tom mentioned Marco Rubio. So, he gave a speech and he started out said, "Look, in 1902 on a day not you know, not unlike today >> in Spanish, too, it's worth pointing out.

[00:08:00]>> did it in Spanish.

[00:08:02]Um the flag of independence uh flew over this island." And he said and and he said that but I know you're going through enormous hardships now. Let me tell you the reasons why. And he he he he laid out the reasons why because you have this corrupt socialist government that's a police state that is, you know, uh siphoned billions of dollars for their own benefit and for security and to support the police state instead of investing in infrastructure and things for the people.

[00:08:26]He He was Marco Rubio was half right.

[00:08:29]The other reason Cuba is a basket case is the United States has had these long-timing sanctions against the place.

[00:08:35]And what what this administration is offering and and look, the last three or four administrations in what have done this. I mean, we're saying, "If you can if you want to forsake if you want to give up being this Marxist totalitarian state that arms soldiers sends them around the world including Venezuela to repress people and kill people and you want to have a an open society, we'll we'll be partners with you."

[00:08:59]That deal is sort of always been on the table.

[00:09:02]The the Castro Fidel and his brother were never willing to take it. They had the Russians backing them and then they had Venezuela backing them. There's some thought they have Iran and China secretly backing them. But the the gig is finally up there.

[00:09:14]And the and I my guess is that when Rubio gave the speech, most Cubans agreed with him and are rooting rooting for him and and want what he wants for Cuba. But how do they get there? You have you still have the police state and these these are people who run the island since 1959 and their sons and grandsons and you know, they're afraid of going to prison themselves or being killed or being prosecuted or being held to account. So, the administration has to figure out a way to, you know, affect this change peacefully. That's what clearly what they're trying to do. I don't I don't think they want an invasion. Um, well, for one thing, that was tried once and it failed. The CIA did it.

[00:09:54]>> No, I mean, it's carrots and sticks. I think it's classic diplomacy. Hey, but as long as we're talking about Cuba, it's my perfect segue because I want to talk about someone else who is the son of a Cuban uh Cuban emigre, and that is Jeff Bezos.

[00:10:09]How do you like that for a transition?

[00:10:10]>> That's excellent.

[00:10:11]>> it's better when you don't draw attention to it, Andy. It's It's better when you just do it.

[00:10:15]>> [laughter] >> Okay.

[00:10:17]>> You know, you got so used to Joe Biden reading the stage directions when he's president you think that's what you're supposed to do. All right. Well, let me let me let me continue. Uh, he was on Squawk Box. Uh, he was responding to AOC's charge that you cannot earn a billion [clears throat] dollars as she put it. Um, so, this is very interesting. This is his response and how he says you can earn a billion dollars. Let's say you start a a burger joint and you have 10 employees.

[00:10:44]And uh you make a little bit of money, right?

[00:10:47]Until you have this is this one one outlet. And by the way, these are the most delicious burgers in the world.

[00:10:52]People love your burgers, Andrew. And so then, you open a second outlet, right?

[00:10:58]And now you're making a a little bit more money and you have the 20 employees and you open a third outlet. By the time you've opened 1,000 outlets, you are a billionaire, right?

[00:11:10]And by the way, this is a real-life story. It happens all the time. It's In-N-Out Burger. It's you know, Raising Cane's Chicken. At what point did that money all of a sudden become unethical or It didn't There was one outlet and then there were two and then there were three. What you're doing, the way the way you make a million dollars or a hundred million dollars or ten million dollars or anything is you create a service that people love and if millions of people choose your service, you're going to end up with a billion dollars.

[00:11:43]So Tom, that's what Tom said that Tom said that same thing on our show last week.

[00:11:48]You were you were you could have gone into you could have been a billionaire at Tom.

[00:11:53]>> [clears throat] >> Well, unfortunately, I'm not a billionaire at the moment. [laughter] Um although, you know, there's always hope.

[00:12:00]Yeah, right. No, look look Bezos this this was like, you know, wealth creation for dummies. I mean, this was like a a perfect, you know, he's like he's explaining it to like a four-year-old.

[00:12:10]Which in some ways is the is the mentality that AOC has when she approaches economics and and wealth creation and job creation and somehow that, you know, it's this this at some point, as Bezos said, like it's great to start a business, but at some point you cross a line and this wealth becomes unethical and you're exploiting people and all this stuff. No, no, not at all. And he talked about Amazon these, you know, in warehouses in Amazon warehouses they're getting paid $23 an hour. It's an entry-level job. You make $52,000 a year, which is you know, it's not a ton, but it's not nothing and they get full health benefits including the benefits that he gets as the CEO of the company. And so it's a good entry-level job for a lot of folks that that helps them, you know, establish themselves and then move up to the next level. So I thought it was this entire interview actually was great. Uh for some reason Bezos is not he doesn't do as much media. He hasn't been out as in front as much as certainly Elon Musk. We know everything Elon thinks comes out via X, but even, you know, more recently it's been Ken Griffin um and and so Bezos is getting into the mix here and I think it's good to hear directly from these guys because otherwise they get painted as these, you know, caricatures and these evil villains, you know, and he yeah, yes, he's got the super yacht and the and the, you know, ridiculous wife, second wife parading around. They're at the Met Gala. I mean, you know, he needs to take control of his own narrative and remind people, which I think is what this interview was part of, and I think he did a pretty good job, in my opinion.

[00:13:41]Yeah, I met him I I I was struck by it because when you a lot of these people do stuff and and it, you know, you, you know, Ken Griffins, what what I don't I don't interact with Ken Griffins uh product on a daily basis. I don't know how much Amazon, the the packages that come to my house every day. And why do I do that? It's because, just as he said, it's a product and a service that is really unmatched in the marketplace and makes my life easier. It saves me time and energy and gas.

[00:14:11]Um I can look at the prices. I mean, the the ordering um interface on Amazon >> to buy. How many times >> [laughter] >> Yes, I mean >> Your product's on its way.

[00:14:20]>> It'll be there in 2 hours. You're like, what?

[00:14:22]>> I mean, so, you know, when he when he puts it out away and he puts talks about chicken and burgers, but it's also about his service. I mean, that's the way you make a billion dollars, and I don't see how people can complain uh if it's a service that's um that that you like and and uh and you enjoy. Um Andy, urban progressives, uh urban liberals, especially the baby boomer generation, have complained for years about uh not just business model, but Walmart, too. Uh you know, people There was a There was a And I know why they do it. I mean, remember, he started out as as a book selling books. That was the first thing Amazon did was buy books.

[00:14:59]And it was more convenient, but it put a lot of independent book stores out of business. Um and some bookstore chains out of business. It was It was more efficient.

[00:15:09]Um but people like their corner bookstore, and they they had trouble making a profit. Uh and, you know, I was at I was at an toy store, an old I think it was Old Town, Alexandria, a old toy store that And people would had really nice toys and people would come in there. They They went out of business a few years ago and here's why.

[00:15:28]They would come in there, look at the toy, take a picture, go out in the street on their phone, and then order that toy from Amazon. Yeah. And sometimes they do it right in the store. And you know, and so there was this people's sensibilities were upset by this. It's It's a new It's a better mousetrap, but but it it got rid of a It helped usher in a new way of life that not everybody was comfortable with. So So Bezos had this um sort of built-in sort of suspicion of what he was doing, even by people who were using the service themselves. But he But in terms of his politics, you know, he he he's an He was He start started in Seattle, right, Tom? That's where he That's where Amazon began, yeah. Where Where Tom's from, but he was He's very Also a Princeton grad, I have There you go. So So you really could have been a billionaire, Tom. You [laughter] just Yeah, right. You just missed out. This comparison is not going well for me.

[00:16:19]But Ugh. But he he's a he's a throwback to a to an older um you know, the 1980s and 1990s when Silicon Valley became what it was um in terms of politics, these guys were always free market capitalists and and innovators [snorts] and and they they champ and they didn't like government regulation. They didn't even think they wanted the government involved. Now, later they found out they could get government contracts, which Bezos did, too. But before that, they just wanted to be left alone. But on social issues, gay marriage, and these kinds of issues, they were they were out of line with the Democratic Party, in line with the Republican Party on these on these issues. And they were really kind of more libertarian Then what happened, you know, then the Democrats discovered Al Gore, who we'll talk about later, helped coin this phrase "Tim Worth popularized Atari Democrats." They They realized there's money in there. The Democrats started, you know, getting it. Um but now what what you have a new generation of Democrats, not just AOC and and not just people who rage. I mean, the thing she said about capitalism, about billionaires, was said by Bill de Blasio when he was mayor of New York. Before Mondani, it was said by Elizabeth Warren. It was said by Barack Obama.

[00:17:27]Right. This is sort of mainstream Democratic Party thinking now. You didn't build that. You didn't earn that.

[00:17:33]You're not worth it. You don't deserve it.

[00:17:34]>> Can I just add one thing real quick?

[00:17:36]The other thing that bothers me about this, too, is like, you know, AOC, I'm sure, I mean, uses Amazon and drinks Starbucks. And you know she's got an iPhone. She's on it all the time.

[00:17:49]That's how she's built her brand. I mean, they use these products and services and pretend like along with millions and millions of other people and then demonize the people Yeah, demonize the people who've created them.

[00:18:01]Yeah.

[00:18:02]Um well, uh We got a few minutes left in the segment. I want to talk about uh Donald Trump and uh Spencer Pratt because Donald Trump kind of endorsed Spencer Pratt. Just brought in the state. You got to listen to what he says. It wasn't quite an endorsement, but Tom, I want to want to get your reaction to this.

[00:18:21]Do you see yourself in him at all? A former reality TV star?

[00:18:25]>> No, I'd like to see him do well. He's a character. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:18:29]I'm going to assume he probably supports me. Does he support me?

[00:18:32]So? Well, so, yeah, I heard he does. I heard he's a big MAGA person.

[00:18:37]He's doing well. I don't know. You know, if you have a rigged vote out there, that's the problem. The votes are rigged.

[00:18:44]So, not quite a full-on endorsement there, but uh Pratt >> are rigged, so an endorsement wouldn't matter, Andy. He didn't need >> Yeah. There's no point. Susan Crabtree had a uh piece today on the front front page of of RCP, which I commend to people, and and she asked the question uh whether Trump's praise for Pratt is a kiss of death or a secret weapon.

[00:19:05]So, this is a net plus or net net negative for him uh in the mayoral's race out there?

[00:19:10]I I don't know. I I don't know that this race is going to turn on it. Look, it it it certainly the Karen Bass and Nithya Raman are going to use this against him and say, "Ah, you know, it's uh aha, he's been revealed as this, you know, MAGA." And they said that in the debate and he kind of was like >> Yeah, they were already saying that, right?

[00:19:29]>> Uh yeah, so you know, Trump does have the effect of I mean, he just he it's it's it's like a lizard brain thing with Democrats when they hear his name and anything associated with him, it it galvanizes them. And so, maybe it'll galvanize some Democrats against Spencer Pratt for this initial vote. But, at the same time, honestly, and I I do love the fact that Trump was like, "Well, is he is he does he like me? Is he >> [laughter] >> He needs to know if someone likes him before he's going to endorse him or not cuz God forbid he should endorse someone who doesn't like Trump.

[00:20:02]Um But, Spencer Pratt released his ad the other day, which kind of got at this, which these these guys are standing at a barbecue and they're like, you know, "I'm not MAGA, but, you know, the city kind of sucks right now and yeah, they they all say, "I'm not MAGA." before everything they say and then they say, "I'm voting for Spencer Pratt." He gave an interview to CNN, which aired last night and was online this morning with Alex Michelson um and he he said basically like everybody who's voting for me is a Democrat. I mean, I think according to Susan's piece, it's like I think uh what is there's like there's like 25 to 30% of the electorate in in LA is roughly Republican and and it's like 1/3 2/3 basically.

[00:20:42]Um he's going to get all the Republican votes. I don't think there are Republicans living in LA that are going to vote for Karen Bass. And then the question is, how many independents can he get? How many Democrats can he get?

[00:20:51]And again, we're we're we're viewing this from all online, but I think he's he's having some success. And um we'll see how many Democrats he pulls over, but I yeah, the the ones who are on the far left who who are triggered by Trump's they weren't going to vote for him anyway. Right.

[00:21:08]Well, look, Trump lost California handily all three times he he ran.

[00:21:13]Uh but he did better in Los Angeles in 2024 than he did in 2000 20. Um now, Trump's line of the day, we didn't play that one.

[00:21:24]Um but Trump that thing where he says he's cheating, Trump once said that there were 5 million illegal votes um in California.

[00:21:33]Uh he he he didn't say that exactly yesterday, but what he did say was that if Jesus Christ had come down and counted the votes in California, he Trump would have won.

[00:21:45]He >> [laughter] >> He said that yesterday. I missed that quote.

[00:21:49]>> [gasps] >> That's good. Well, um you know, I just want to circle back because we just have a few minutes left and I pulled this clip. I wanted to play it for you guys.

[00:21:55]This is Fran Lebowitz.

[00:21:57]Uh she was on Australian television. She was talking about what we we were talking about before about uh billionaires in New York and their um what she thinks they should do. Just listen to this. Every time someone suggests this, they say, "I'm moving."

[00:22:13]Go. You know, they add nothing to New York. You know, in the olden days, in the 19th century, those robber barons, >> [clears throat] >> they employed people at least. Okay?

[00:22:22]They They employed thousands, hundreds of thousands of people. They All this money magic employs no one. It is no product. It has no Goodbye. Go. We're moving to Florida.

[00:22:33]Go. You know, we don't need you. You know, I mean, I know that guy I mean, I don't know him, but I think you're talking about a guy named Ken Griffin, right? He's a $103 million apartment.

[00:22:42]First of all, what does that even mean?

[00:22:44]How can an apartment be $103 million?

[00:22:47]And when you have apartments that cost that much, it makes every apartment more expensive. So, the $103 million apartment at 57th Street makes the studio apartment in the Bronx more expensive than it should be. So, no, I think it's a very good idea.

[00:22:59]So, um there there's sort of distillation of Economic illiteracy.

[00:23:05]>> [laughter] >> What we need is economic depression, cuz everything will be cheaper. There there is one grain of truth in that. [laughter] And that is when I you know, when Henry Ford first made his first billion in in today's dollars, he employed 100,000 people in these plants. When Mark Zuckerberg first made his billion dollars, you know, he employed a couple hundred people.

[00:23:29]But that's not true of Jeff Bezos, and that's what Tom was saying. Amazon and they there were Amazon remember wanted Bezos wanted to move to the to Queens.

[00:23:38]He wanted to move a plant there. Uh, they would have employed a lot of people. And Democrats who represent that area with this armed with this kind of non-thinking said no. They didn't want They didn't want the jobs. So, that's not even good socialism, Andy.

[00:23:55]>> [laughter] >> Well, I mean Yeah, even socialists wanted jobs. Yeah, but not and not to pile on, but I mean when uh Zuckerberg when when when people make a billion dollars, it's not like they stick it under their mattress or they It's on paper. It's on paper and uh Well, when they spend it, they employ people.

[00:24:14]>> it. So, it may not be >> Even if that yacht that yacht you mentioned, Tom mentioned, at to Andy's point, Andy likes boats, so I bring this up. Somebody had to build that, right?

[00:24:22]>> of people there.

[00:24:22]>> Someone had to build that yacht, yep.

[00:24:24]Well, as as I think, you know, Bezos said when he when he you know, when he cashes out stock, he's got to pay capital gains on all that stuff. And then he's giving money away.

[00:24:34]I mean, look, this is Ma- Mondaire made this mistake with Ken Griffin and then had to kind of backtrack, and you saw, you know, Katie Wilson out in Seattle, she attacked Well, she said to millionaires like buy, and then she attacked Starbucks, and now she's backtracking cuz Starbucks is talking about moving a couple thousand people to Nashville. So, I you know, these these socialist mayors, they like to they like to virtue signal and attack with attack wealth and billionaires and all that because it gets their base excited, but the but but then they face the practical reality and consequences of those attacks, which is, "Oh my god, Ken Griffin just left Chicago and we have, you know, our tax base just just plummeted and we have thousands less employees and thousands of less millions of less dollars in property taxes and the like." Um and when that reality hits home, it's it's pretty stark. And we are joined now by Ron Bailey. He is the science correspondent at Reason Magazine. And Ron, uh we wanted to have you on today because the 20th anniversary of Al Gore's documentary, An Inconvenient Truth, it's just a few days away. Uh the documentary really galvanized the movement around what we used to call global warming. Um now we call it climate change. I went back and looked at your review of the film, and this is what you wrote. You said, "As a film, An Inconvenient Truth is competently made documentary centered on Gore's famous global warming slideshow interspersed with shots of him brooding on the fate of the Earth. On balance, Gore gets it more right than wrong on the science." Then you have a parenthese, "We'll leave the policy stuff to another time." Then you said this, "I give An Inconvenient Truth a tepid two stars." So, that was back in 2006.

[00:26:22]Uh what what what what what grade would you give it today and have your have your views changed at all?

[00:26:30]Uh I guess I would give it a maybe a one and a half. Uh and my my views have changed in a certain sense about Gore, not so much about the science. Uh he is correct that adding uh carbon dioxide by burning fossil fuels is is tending to increase the global average temperature.

[00:26:46]The main problem is with the documentary 20 years on is uh and it was also a problem at the time that he exaggerates how bad that problem is overall. Uh, he has very sort of an apocalyptic tone to to the piece. And I think the main problem is is that he ended up eventually politicizing the science of climate change. And this is a problem I mean, people may not remember this, but uh, Republican stalwarts like uh, John McCain actually had proposed legislation to uh, create a market mechanism for reducing carbon dioxide emissions. So, it was a bipartisan issue to some extent or other before this documentary came out. But shortly after that, it became completely adopted by the Democratic Party and the Republican Party became reactionary in a sense. And so, we're we're stuck with basically a very bad series of politics over climate change.

[00:27:40]Well, you know, Ron, I covered Gore in 1992. This this movie was based on his book, Earth in the Balance.

[00:27:49]Yeah, did you ever read my cover article in the National Review on that topic?

[00:27:53]>> yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:27:56]And I also talked to Gore about it, and he was so you know, he he helped make it a partisan issue, and that wasn't his first impulse. Uh, but he you know, but he he there were Republicans in Tennessee where he was representing the Senate who were with him, you know, his first impulse was that this everybody should join him. And but what happened was Clinton picked him as a vice presidential nominee. Um, that's a very partisan thing. Vice presidents were still as now expected to be, you know, uh, attack dogs. So, Gore, despite his misgivings, helped do what he didn't want to do, which was make it help make it a partisan issue.

[00:28:33]Um, and then it became easy for Republicans to point out, um, and not just Republicans, people like you in Reason magazine, people like me, I was writing for the Baltimore Sun then. Al Gore said in Earth in the Balance that within a few decades, he was not precise, but let's just stipulate we've been a few decades since 19 um that 60% of Floridians would have to move. There were 13 million people in Florida then.

[00:28:57]The population of the state is nearly doubled. Um and you know, he made these predictions that haven't come true. And so then now you have a further to me polarization on the issue which it became fair game to point out that you know, then he's he's the presidential nominee in 2000 that the the leader of the Democratic Party said all this stuff about uh climate change that was wrong.

[00:29:19]Right. No, I I I agree. And again, he he got the broad picture correct in the sense that alerting people to the fact that fossil fuels and and I used to not agree with him on that, but eventually the data just uh persuaded me that this was going to be a possible problem as the 21st century evolved over time. His main problem was he he felt the need as far as I could tell. I don't know what his soul is, but basically he felt the need to exaggerate or to highlight what he called the downsides of it and he ended up exaggerating well beyond what the scientific data was telling us. And it turns out as you pointed out that a lot of the predictions that he was making didn't come true. I mean among other things for example in uh in the in An Inconvenient Truth, he was saying hurricanes were getting worse. Well, the fact of the matter is we've now had 20 more years of data and something called accumulated cyclone energy which measures you know, basically how bad hurricanes have been over time has been flat or going down over that period of time, which is good news. But so that was one concern that they was making is that hurricanes are going to get worse, we're all going to get flooded, and all going to die kind of thing.

[00:30:28]And also as he famously said, you know, uh Glacier will be the the park formerly known as Glacier uh by 2016 by the way. And it turns out there are still glaciers in in uh Glacier National Park.

[00:30:43]They are uh they are melting away, but they're still there. So, let's be careful about that.

[00:30:49]Um and you know, he was exaggerating how much sea level rise would occur over the the next period of time.

[00:30:56]And it and again, sea level rise because Earth is warming is accelerating, but looking down you know, as as best we can is probably going to be 2 ft by year 2100.

[00:31:11]And that's not great because sea level rose about a foot over the the 20th century.

[00:31:17]But humanity is not going to drown.

[00:31:19]It's we're not going to have a problem with that. But well, then the Dutch had the Dutch had a answer to that in 1500.

[00:31:27]>> They certainly do.

[00:31:29]And and it turn and it turns out that you know, some people are worried about like Bangladesh, for example, which is a very low-lying country and very poor.

[00:31:37]They're already building dikes as well.

[00:31:39]And the Dutch were even poorer when they built their first dike. So, people don't just stand there and let the water rise up and and and drown their themselves.

[00:31:49]But and the really good news is is he was also projecting at the time that global warming by the year 2100 might be as high as 5 to 4° C centigrade but 7 to 8° uh uh Fahrenheit higher than the current level was.

[00:32:07]And the good news is is that the better modeling and better trends on fossil fuel use and so forth suggested actually the global average temperature will be somewhere between 2 and 2.5° C Celsius, which is not great, but it's not a disaster. And people people back in 2006 would have been basically going, "Hooray, we've solved the problem."

[00:32:32]if it had been that. So, again I I I understand that for some he felt a tremendous urgency to to address this problem. And I'm afraid like a lot of preachers sometimes he exaggerated the sins in order to try to get the sinners to behave better.

[00:32:50]Ron, my my question is uh there you always run into this with the the climate change types, which is the hypocrisy, right? It's like you know, these these projections of doom and gloom and apocalypse and meanwhile Al Gore still has his giant home and he's flying around on private jets and Greta Thunberg and you know, all this stuff and even all the Hollywood types that are you know, big pro-climate change folks are are expending enormous amounts of >> [laughter] >> right Flying flying Flying their jets in the Aspen talking >> like you know, for like 30 minutes to get from you know, San Francisco to LA or something. Um and I just never got past the hypocrisy of of Al Gore and you know, as he was as he was being celebrated by all these folks.

[00:33:40]That was one of the criticisms that came at him from the right and I think it there's some validity to it, no?

[00:33:46]There there there is a little bit of validity to it. I agree and it sounds to me like what you're trying to do is to get my annual Christmas trip of going to UN climate change meetings canceled.

[00:33:56]>> [laughter] >> You can do that. They're in really lovely places and I I want to see you reporting on this problem. Uh I have to do my Christmas shopping while I'm there. So, but yeah, there there is a little bit of of hypocrisy that um of course people say, "Well, I have to do that because it's so urgent and people important people like me need to take these to be given a a pass if you will for this."

[00:34:22]And it's not surprising that Al Gore like many other people >> Kerry and yeah.

[00:34:28]Yeah, basically they basically say, "We're we're the issue is so important that we need to be there and no expense spared. Yeah. Well, Ron, um people should know this. Ron and I worked together years ago and we made uh television together.

[00:34:42]>> You're admitting it? Yes, and we made documentaries and all sorts of interesting things. So, Ron knows what he's talking about when he talks about documentaries. My question for you, Ron, is if you were to make that documentary today, what would you give it as a title? And uh give us a 30-second synopsis of what it would include.

[00:34:59]>> [snorts] >> Well, that's a really tough question. Uh climate change is a problem, uh but humanity will be able to deal with it.

[00:35:08]Uh worry, but but but uh we have the solutions to it and it's mostly market-based solutions uh allowing people to live their lives in uh a in a in an energy uh dense way. Mhm. That's not a very good title. No. Al [laughter] Gore was Al Gore was Al Gore was wrong. That That's your title right there.

[00:35:32]>> Sorry. No, no, no, no, Al Al Gore exaggerated.

[00:35:37]>> [laughter] >> All right, Chris.

[00:35:38]>> Wait, wait, wait, wait. I got I want to ask something. Before we go, we have time, man. One quick question, sure. All right. Um Ron, we we talked about the partisan aspect [clears throat] that this took and it I I found that was unfortunate, but but the other thing that I wonder about the global the was first, you know, global warming and then they changed it to you know and why they changed it to climate change. There you remember this period.

[00:36:02]There was a time there in the early 2000s where they'd schedule a a meeting on global warming and it would be unseasonably cold and snow. They'd get snowed out and and they'd say, "Well, this is weather, not climate." And some skeptics, the Reason magazine subscribers, say, "This is what we've been telling you. It's all climate. It's all weather." And they'd say, "No, no, we we were So, we'll change it to climate change." And then it was kind of heads I win, tails you lose because anything that happened was unusual weather. they'd say, "See, climate change." But my But my question was, how much of the resistance to this, the skepticism, was because of the population bomb, Paul Ehrlich's, you know, dire predictions that billions of people would starve to death. And these weren't just the same types of people. They were the same people, many of them at Stanford and many of the same scientists. They never even acknowledged that they'd been wrong about that. They'd never acknowledged that technology had a role in fixing the hunger, a And so, people like me who skeptical, not I was always raised as a conservationist, but skeptical because these people had already shown that they were impervious to new evidence. They wouldn't change their minds. And they failed to do in the hunger thing and feeding the world what they're doing in climate change. They never acknowledged that there would be technological solutions to the problem. So, how much of that was How much of the resistance is because of that?

[00:37:23]Uh you are entirely right. I wrote a whole book on that called EcoScam in 1992, and you're exactly right that part of the problem was that Gore was attaching himself to a bunch of people who are apocalyptic who were claiming the world was coming to an end. Hence and had been doing so for decades, and had never admitted that they were wrong.

[00:37:41]And he sounded exactly like those same people, and therefore the people who had already seen these other apocalyptics being wrong could put him in the same category. And in fact, in some sense or other, he he belongs in that same category.

[00:37:54]All right. And he didn't use his Paul Paul Paul Ehrlich never admitted he was wrong, but he has now gone to uh a a an unpopulated heaven, I'm sure.

[00:38:04]>> [laughter] >> Tonight is the last episode of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. Lots of commentary about it, including a couple of pieces on our front page, which you should go and look at. But Tom, uh will you be watching? What do you expect?

[00:38:21]Oh, no, I haven't watched the late show in years.

[00:38:25]Uh, I don't watch any late night TV and apparently I'm not alone. I don't think anybody's watching. Uh, you know, there was there was the sort of glory, the golden days of of late night TV, but it ended with, you know, >> You're not even old enough to remember that. No, I mean, I Johnny Carson, Jack Paar.

[00:38:45]>> I do remember my my parents used to watch Johnny Carson a lot. I used to watch Jay Leno a little bit. I used to watch David Letterman a little bit. Um, you know, when I was in college, we'd stay up and watch Letterman. He was funny. I mean, you know, stupid pet tricks and all that stuff.

[00:39:03]Um, but for the last, I don't know what, 10 years, 15 years? I mean, definitely since Trump came on the scene, uh, all of these so-called comedians have just I mean, again, there there market forces at work here, too. I don't want to minimize [clears throat] those, but they've been exacerbated by the fact that, you know, partisanship, these guys decided to play to half the country instead of the whole country and became became basically partisan actors and and for for half the country, uh, their stuff isn't funny at all. In fact, it's offensive in some ways.

[00:39:37]And so, and Stephen Colbert was part of that. His show was losing $40 million a year. I just as a business decision, CBS News was CBS was right to pull the plug on that show.

[00:39:49]And uh, I know they took a lot of heat for it, but >> [clears throat and cough] >> his time has has come and gone. Mhm.

[00:39:55]Well, uh, Carl, do you see it that way? Cuz a lot of a lot of people consider him a hero and they're rallying around him and uh, this is the end of free speech and that sort of stuff.

[00:40:06]>> it's not Yeah, yeah, the free speech argument is silly, but but to Tom's point, um, to your point, Annie, a lot of you have to if half the country is alienated, the other the other side of that is that half the country's for, you know, kindly disposed towards him.

[00:40:21]I first became aware of this dynamic before Trump when when Colbert did the um Daily Show.

[00:40:27]No, when he did the White House Correspondents Association dinner.

[00:40:31]Uh you know, his name is Colbert, of course, but the Colb- and I called him Colbert. He He at this reception he he he answered to it. That's his name.

[00:40:38][laughter] This was a conceit of his and he was a comedian. He was >> Well, this was The Colbert Report was named after that Thomas Jefferson Yeah, that's correct. And but anyway, so he came and did the dinner and he was he was partisan. He was He knew he lost the room. He knew he hadn't done well that night. He He was all He was playing the role he played on The Colbert Report and he was he was attacking basically attacking Bush. And and I had a bad attitude about that and Colbert knew he'd lost the room, as I said, but but people responded Liberals, great, hooray. They loved it. And so that that That's when I date this idea that, you know, we we in America we thought it was okay just to la- just to laugh at your opponents, not to laugh at yourself.

[00:41:19]That we had a change of sensibilities and that's sort of to me when I mark the beginning of it. But we have this piece on our front page today and I edited it's a column by Melinda Henneberger, who's a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist. She wrote for the Times and the Kansas City Star, where she won her Pulitzer, and the Sacramento Bee. She now writes for us. She's just a terrific person and she pointed out something I didn't know, which is that on the left there's this debate whether Colbert was too nice. And I said, "Well, I I never heard of that."

[00:41:45]But, you know, that's She said, "Oh, yeah, this is going on." And she loved Colbert and Melinda's a liberal but a very thoughtful one and and a fair-minded one and she and she what she and she has a clip. She has a link to it. I urge people to read it cuz I watched the whole thing and it's Colbert talking about Toby Keith. And he'd had Keith Toby Keith wrote this song, you know, "I'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American way" after 9/11.

[00:42:08]And Colbert was going to kind of ambush him on this and he describes Colbert does in this clip. He said, "When Toby Keith died recently." And he said, "You know, I was having my show and I realized, wait a minute. I'm having this guy as a guest on my show. Maybe I'll find out where he's at." And they had you know, a nice conversation. They ended up They became friends. And when when Keith died, on this clip, Colbert's fighting back tears. Um and I loved Toby Keith and I loved his music. And I So, there's a human side to this guy.

[00:42:35]Melinda's postulate is that left to his own devices, he would have been more of a uniter. But he found himself in this environment as Tom said, there's market forces. And he kind of got pigeonholed pigeonholed himself, had a bad attitude about Trump. But that there was more to him than that. And that he really did want to talk to people who didn't necessarily agree with and had friendships with people like that.

[00:42:55]>> Then then Then he shouldn't >> it helped me It helped me to read this column. So, he So, he shouldn't have made his monologue every single night to be just an absolute, you know, uh just just a hate fest against Donald Trump. I mean, that's >> He was he was being paid $15 million a year and someone was making him say things. I just don't buy it. I mean, he's >> [laughter] >> I'll say this.

[00:43:16]>> the column. Look at the clip with Toby Keith. I I submit you'll be more kindly disposed to Toby Colbert.

[00:43:21]>> I want to just say two quick things about this. One is that um The Colbert Report, which was the original came after comedy his thing on The Daily Show. I thought was brilliant parody. It was this whole thing where he was sort of um doing Bill O'Reilly. And it it was Right. He sustained this character for, you know, over the entire >> was funny. I mean, it was very funny.

[00:43:44]And it was also, you know, a little bit of affectionate towards Bill O'Reilly. I mean, it was I I thought it was great great TV at the time. The other thing is that what's replacing him is a syndicated program from uh Byron Allen.

[00:43:56]Um and this means that CBS is basically renting their time Yeah.

[00:44:00]>> out to an independent producer who's going to sell the ads and make the money. So, really sort of a an admission on the part of CBS that they can't run a a show at that time that and make money at it. It's it's a Or they can't do or they can't do comedy anymore. Well, they can't they can't figure out any It's it's it's why you see information infomercials late at night. It's because you got the time, you just put it up and someone else is makes money and the network gets a cut. They just They just plugged a $40 million a year hole and are going to make money. Yeah.

[00:44:31]>> So, from a business perspective, it's a great decision. It's a yeah, I great decision, but from a programming decision, it's it's an admission that you you don't know what to do with with your your most valuable product.

[00:44:43]>> And the admission I'm making, Andy, is that I'm squishy on Stephen Colbert. So, I know. I >> [laughter] >> I can see that.

[00:44:50]Well, um Barney Frank uh passed away. He uh was Massachusetts Congressman. We got a few minutes left. He uh was 86. Uh he played key role in the housing crisis 2008 with the Dodd-Frank Act, chairman of the House Finance Committee. Came out as gay in 1987, first member of Congress to do that.

[00:45:09]Also the first uh to enter a same-sex marriage. Uh couple of other things along the way. Uh Carl, uh we got a few minutes.

[00:45:17][laughter] Just going to skip right over the gay prostitution ring. Okay. I I I knew Frank. prostitution [laughter] ring, yeah.

[00:45:24]I knew I knew Barney I knew Barney Frank and he was I knew him the way other people knew him. Very smart, very caustic. Uh he could He was an acquired taste. He could but but he He tried to He tried to He was a progressive who tried to help um people, working people.

[00:45:41]And and you know, the LGBT community.

[00:45:43]But he when he said he came out, a Boston Globe, I think it was a Globe reporter came to him. It was long rumored he was gay. He didn't really hide it, but he never declared himself.

[00:45:50]And a guy approached him in his office and said, "Are you gay?" He said, "Yeah, so what?"

[00:45:54]>> [laughter] >> So, it was kind of That's where we were in 1987, I think it was. So, I I admired him for that. The The other thing, in recent years, he's played a a night productive role in the Democratic Party. He's tried to. And he said this recently, he said, um, if you're if you want to get Democrats elected, you want to win back the White House, this is a direct quote, you should not take the most unpopular parts of your agenda and make them litmus tests. And that's what my friends on the left have been doing. Good advice for the Democrats, I think.

[00:46:23]Tom.

[00:46:24]Yeah, I mean, look, he was a he was a character and he was he was not, you know, they talk about showhorses and workhorses. I think he was both, actually. Uh, he he did a lot of work, [clears throat] but he also, he wasn't afraid of the cameras and he would get in front of the cameras and and he would, you know, aggressively make his case and make the Democrats' case. So, yes, um, he he was a colorful character and I think deserves to be recognized as such and we'll just leave the >> [laughter] >> We'll leave that other stuff to the side. No need to No need to bring that up. He got censured by the Congress, I guess, for We Yeah, we don't have to go in that. I mean, >> [laughter] >> it's a day to remember what's good about What I I I remember in Washington >> I hope when I pass away, you guys only you let go of my worst moments.

[00:47:13]>> [laughter] >> Only remember me for the good times.

[00:47:15]>> Right. Uh, what always struck me about him is he was from Massachusetts, but he really was from New Jersey. That's where he was born. He was a Jewish kid from New Jersey and he never lost the Jersey accent or the sort of that sort of tough New York New Jersey kind of uh, persona.

[00:47:30]Um, he was funny and um, you know, Called himself a left-handed gay Jew.

[00:47:37]>> [laughter] [gasps] >> As we need characters in Washington, anyway. That is our program for today.

[00:47:42]If you're listening on the podcast apps or watching on YouTube, be sure to subscribe, like, send us a comment. Uh, we do read them. It's great to hear from all of you. If you're listening on the Megyn Kelly channel on SiriusXM, we were there yesterday. I think our clips are up on her uh, YouTube channel. You can see some of those. Some of them made some news. So, stick around. Megan's coming up right after this. I'm Andrew Walworth on behalf of Tom Curl, everyone here at RCP. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Have a great day.

[00:48:13]>> [music]