All About Borderline With Dr. George Simon

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]Today my guest is my friend Dr. George Simon. Dr. Simon is the author of In Sheep's Clothing: Character Disturbance and Essentials for the Journey. And today we went over something a little bit different. We talked about borderline, what people get wrong about borderline, when it's time to leave a borderline. We also talked about other character disturbance. And we talked about how spirituality plays a part in borderline narcissism and other character disturbances. And with that, I hope you enjoy my interview with Dr. Simon as much as I did. Dr. Simon, how are you this afternoon?

[00:00:39]>> I'm good, Jared. How are you?

[00:00:41]>> I'm living the dream over here. I'm uh looking forward to our conversation today.

[00:00:47]>> Looking forward to it myself. So today we're going to talk about a few things that we haven't really talked about before in our multiple conversations.

[00:00:55]The first would be borderline personality disorder. Now I don't know much about your thoughts about it. We talked a little bit about it before we started here, but what is your definition of borderline personality disorder right now?

[00:01:12]>> Oh my goodness. Well, you know, the the whole concept of borderline personality has changed over time since its original formulation.

[00:01:24]Um and uh in the evolution of thought of these things and in the evolution of the official way to classify uh and to diagnose disorders uh we have gone to strictly behavioralbased criteria. So if a person shows a cluster of certain behaviors, we render the diagnosis. But conceptually um the uh perspective that I primarily adopt is that uh it's a failure of personality to organize well, to come together well. It's a it's a um it's a rather fluid and and uh boundary diverse sense of self where the person basically has an unstable and rather fluid sense of self which explains why the person can be almost chameleonike sometimes in different situations can at one time uh appear appear uh needy and clingy and uh whatnot and then the next minute want to bite your head off, you know, uh and this these things just don't seem to match, but the person is just not put together very well. Um and they have a very poor sense of self, unstable sense of self. And I also see borderline syndrome as being on a spectrum like most all the conditions.

[00:03:07]Um where uh the different traits that might be in the personality um influence what kind of borderline expression is there. So not every borderline is alike. Some border lines have some histrionic features in their personality that make them highly dramatic. uh very attention-seeking.

[00:03:32]Uh some have narcissistic traits in their personality which can make them quite manipulative. Uh and um uh some some have even antisocial traits in their personality. So um every borderline's a little different but I see it as a a failure of personality to organize well and in a stable uh relatively enduring manner and what are your thoughts on the fact that many people used to say oh it's just because of their mother that this is why it has occurred. What are your thoughts on that? Well, um you know, once again, there may be some truth in that.

[00:04:22]Um but we also know that some tendencies, some constitutional factors that have a heavy influence on personality formation are heritable.

[00:04:39]We don't have a specific gene that we can identify.

[00:04:43]But if your mom had certain characteristics in her makeup and she passed some predispositions on to you, then you could say that your mother had an influence. It didn't have to be just the way she treated you. And perhaps the way she treated you had a lot to do with her makeup, you know. Um so it's just overly simplistic to paint with those broad brushes. Um we know from the research as it has been accumulating over decades that constitution various constitutional factors not just biology, not just hormonal complexes, not just um genetic traits and predispositions, but a a variety of constitutional factors are more influential than we ever thought and the literature keeps telling us that. Now, that is not to say that it's all in the genes.

[00:05:51]our environment does have an effect. And um it's not to say that it's just a simple matter of both because there's a dynamic interplay between how our environment either traumatizes us, encourages us, helps shape us, guide us, various factors in our formative environments that have an influence on us. but it's also how we respond to those things based partly on constitutional factors. So there's a dynamic interplay and it's very complex.

[00:06:27]And one of the things I've always uh subscribed to in my work over the years is it doesn't seem to pay in any way to pay much attention to all those things that we can't change anyway.

[00:06:44]We can't undo a person's learned experience. We can't. It's done. And we can't change their makeup.

[00:06:54]Okay. So now what do we do? We have to go from here.

[00:07:00]>> So I don't attention to it. I think when it comes to that part of it, people don't like doing that for whatever reason because I think they would rather just talk about the disorders and they would rather talk about maybe the harm they cause and they kind of stop short at treating them or etc. They just but they stop they stop and they don't go forward. Well, that said, that said, in the early days of psychological thought when psychoanalysis was being developed by Freud and his followers and people were for the most part, the people that came to see uh Freud and his colleagues were highly neurotic individuals as he called them. These are people who were overburdened by oppressive consciences that had them worrying and fretting about things, repressing uh memories and certain experiences, um forming emotional complexes.

[00:08:09]And to be fair, the thought was if you paid attention to these things and you called these things to conscious light, if you had the person come to consciously realize how they got to where they are, what was really underlying their neurosis, so to speak, uh that that insight would make a difference. It would help them understand, reduce the cognitive dissonance and also have some way of seeing their way through modifying old patterns that weren't working. So there was some benefit to that whole model of working through your past wounds and anxieties and the traumas in your environment etc etc. So, and there still is some value to that when you're w working with a highly neurotic person.

[00:09:14]If you're working with a person who's got some degree of character disturbance, it's almost a waste of time.

[00:09:23]>> Because the bigger problem is that the person needs to learn to do differently.

[00:09:29]>> Uh, and here's the magic of that.

[00:09:32]If a person has been so scarred by their formative past that they find it difficult to do differently in forcing the issue of doing differently, whatever the neurosis is, whatever the wounds are, they will come out. They'll come out by themselves. You don't have to spend any single time digging or researching or exploring.

[00:10:01]It'll happen.

[00:10:03]I I've seen it countless times.

[00:10:07]For example, if a person has developed the uh coping style of uh browbeating their partner into submission every single time they want something and that's the style they've developed and you frustrate that effort. You don't allow it.

[00:10:26]You insist that they do differently, gently but firmly, and you reinforce them only for doing things differently.

[00:10:40]Eventually, some resentment underneath that based in whatever prior wounds there might be will surface.

[00:10:49]You know, something like you sound just like my taskmaster dad or whatever.

[00:10:55]It'll show up. You don't have to explore it. It'll show up.

[00:11:00]>> That makes sense. What do you see people get wrong about borderline or what do you think people get confused about borderline?

[00:11:08]>> I've just like the same the same thing they get wrong about antisocial personalities or especially narcissistic personalities. What they get wrong is that they're all alike.

[00:11:19]>> They're not period. There's a spectrum of type. There are spectra to be collect correct about the Latin.

[00:11:29]There are spectra of type and degree and not all are alike and there's different prognosis and different methodology uh depending on the type and degree of severity >> and that's folks get wrong. And I think I think part of this issue with Borderline in particular is there's a big self-aware community of them online and they can be uh fairly defensive when it comes to people talking about borderline. And granted, some of them might be doing what you just said where they're generalizing, acting like they're all the same. So partially, sometimes they can be correct. But I think where they really get upset is when they'll say if people say a borderline can be abusive, for example, they won't like hearing that. They they're comfortable with a borderline being a a victim of abuse, >> right?

[00:12:27]>> But they're not so comfortable with border lines being the abuser, >> right?

[00:12:31]>> And it's natural to not want to feel um condemned in any way or uh uh painted in a bad light in any way. It's natural for any human being to not want that. And you know uh even some of the most capable of abuse individuals I I have encountered who have borderline personality characteristics uh would not want to see themselves certainly as abusive.

[00:13:04]Um but that uh that doesn't negate the fact that from a more objective standpoint maybe some of their behavior is clearly either manipulative, abusive, certainly maladdaptive certainly it seems to be working for them even though it's not really working in a broader context. So I don't make those kinds of judgments. I don't make those kinds of judgments that condemn.

[00:13:42]Even though I like to think I have some moral foundation, my commitment, I believe, has to be toward well-being.

[00:13:55]Well-being for the individual and well-being for anyone that they might be in a relationship with. And if whatever is going on contributes to well-being, I want to reinforce that. And if ever was whatever is going on does not contribute to well-being or hampers well-being, I want to call that out benignely but firmly um and address it.

[00:14:27]That's my commitment.

[00:14:30]>> That makes sense. And I think if someone's in a relationship with a borderline, what kinds of things at the risk of generalizing here, what kinds of behaviors do you think the partner of a borderline would have to be dealing with? Where's the struggle for them?

[00:14:48]>> Okay. So, I'm going to use an example, but I'm also going to not paint with a broad.

[00:14:54]>> Yeah.

[00:14:54]>> Let's say you're dealing with a borderline. Let's say your partner is a borderline personality that has prominent histrionic traits. So everything's a drama.

[00:15:05]Everything's an overreaction or there's a lot of wild attention seeking.

[00:15:12]I would say be careful not to reinforce that.

[00:15:17]Now, when you don't reinforce that, you know, when you don't pay attention to those overly dramatized effects, sometimes the other person will up the ante, >> you know, they will keep up the ante until you do pay attention because that's the that's the behavior that they have learned to get the response they want. But if you simply refuse to play the game and you make it clear through your response, not attacking, not condemning, but just making it clear through your response, hey, I see what you're after here, but you can't get it from me that way. So when you're willing, when you're finally willing, whenever that is, later today, tomorrow, later in this rant that you're having right now, whatever the case may be, when you're willing to try a different t, you're going to get the response from me that you want.

[00:16:19]>> That makes sense. I mean, for the borderline, the fear of abandonment is what they say is ultimately a big part of what's going on there. The fear of abandonment >> for many border lines. Yes. For many border lines who are the way they are primarily because of the trauma that they experience. Yes. For that kind of borderline. Yes.

[00:16:39]>> And then for others is the fear of engulfment and the fear of being smothered.

[00:16:43]>> Yes.

[00:16:45]>> And hence a lot of the pushpull dynamic that occurs in a lot of borderline relationships.

[00:16:50]>> Right.

[00:16:51]So when you see this though, do you see people are they able to have successful relationships with border lines or do you find border lines are able to have successful relationships with others?

[00:17:05]Well, you know, uh, a while back, a pioneering researcher by the name of Sarah Lahan, uh, began developing this now considered to be the treatment of choice for borderline personality disorder, dialectical behavior therapy.

[00:17:26]And um as a variation of cognitive behavioral therapy, its biggest merit, I believe conceptually, is to grant legitimacy to what's underneath the person's behavior. To grant legitimacy even though we think maybe the way they're feeling is way out of line. Even though we think the way they're reacting is maladaptive to grant legitimacy to it and at the same time proposing an alternative challenging the adaptiveness challenging the legitimate not the legitimacy that's not the right word challenging the the validity of the perception itself.

[00:18:22]You know, it may feel, yes, I I can see how you feel like you're being abandoned again right now, but how does that square with me being here >> and listening to you rant and not leaving? How does that perception that you're about to be abandoned square with the reality that I'm here right now?

[00:18:55]Yeah. You see, when when growth or change of any kind happens, it always happens right here.

[00:19:12]right now in the present moment.

[00:19:16]It doesn't happen some distant future, you know, you you get you get things off your chest in the therapist office and then the they send you home and things are going to be better tomorrow. No, things rarely change that way. How things change usually is slowly, incrementally, and in here and now moments where despite all the predispositions that you bring with you, you try something different, >> something new.

[00:19:53]>> Because I know there's a lot of people that really try to love the borderline through their situation. But what often ends up happening, what I have seen is they, the borderline person will act in a way that just makes a healthy relationship extremely difficult.

[00:20:11]They'll push them away and the other person becomes obsessed with maybe trying to rescue them or save them or do the work for them.

[00:20:19]>> So when would you say it's time for someone to abandon ship when it comes to a relationship with a borderline? Well, let's first talk about that idea about love because perhaps the most maligned word in the English language is the word love.

[00:20:39]>> Somebody uh wrote a book called love languages and uh in it they described these different ways that people feel loved.

[00:20:51]You know, affirmation is my love language.

[00:20:56]Well, affirmation is a is a wonderful thing to receive sometime and it can help make you feel good about yourself or invite you to feel good about yourself. But to call it a language or even a form of love does not only a disservice to love, but it bismerches its true nature.

[00:21:23]Um, Eric from wrote a book called The Art of Loving.

[00:21:28]It's a landmark. Uh, it's a longstanding seinal work and I believe that the good therapy is essentially proper loving. Hm.

[00:21:45]>> So sometimes the most loving thing you can do the truly in other words if you're radically wishing well for both another person and yourself neither one more than the other. But if your intent at the moment is to do well by someone else and by yourself.

[00:22:11]Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is exit sometimes.

[00:22:20]And that doesn't mean the other person's going to take it. Well, >> right.

[00:22:24]>> Right.

[00:22:26]So discerning what the loving thing is is really an important part of any relationship because relationships are the way that we primarily discern love's nature in an our age of such rampant ambiguity and abnormality becoming normalized and narcissist ism and various forms becoming rampant in our age where it's hard to gauge the soundness or appropriateness of just about anything in in such a time it's hard to know where the proper lover loving boundaries are and that's a that's a topic in it of itself Jared Um, with with real love, with the real thing, the the true lover knows what boundaries have to be overcome, broken down to a certain extent to permit healthy intimacy.

[00:23:46]And what boundaries must be absolutely and firmly respected and erected also to protect genuine intim in intimacy and vulnerability.

[00:24:01]So the lover, the true lover knows has learned the difference of when to enforce a boundary, whether it be their own boundary or a boundary on your behavior versus the boundaries that the barriers that need to come down so that there can be connection between people and discriminating that.

[00:24:25]You know, you've heard the phrase labor of love. That's the true labor of love right there is discerning the difference. And in our age where values where even the most timetested proven values and principles of good character have become so nebulous all of a sudden so relative all of a sudden in such a day it's hard to discern these things what's truly loving and what isn't. And that's a sad commentary.

[00:25:07]It's not only a sad commentary on our society.

[00:25:12]It's a sad commentary on our um our institutionalized ways of helping people. And I'm not talking about edififices institutions.

[00:25:25]I'm talking about all the various various therapeutic approaches out there and all the various disciplines. There used to be only one or two. Now there's a dozens and dozens of disciplines. Some without even credentiing necessary. A person can call themselves a oh I don't know a a spiritual life coach.

[00:25:54]I don't know of any university that teaches a course on that or or any licensing board that grants a certificate for that, but a people of all kinds of persuasions can offer their services as a way to help you along in this very very relativistic world. Right. Now before I ask the next part of the question, you do agree some border lines can be abusive while others can be victimized. Correct?

[00:26:29]>> Yes, that's correct. So considering that my whole thing with someone in a relationship or married to a borderline would be if they're not even trying to work on themselves, that's a big one because I see what happens to a lot of people is and maybe they're kind of dependent, not codependent, dependent on the other person >> and they're trying to do the work for them or they're doing more for them than that person is doing for themselves. And you see this a lot with people in relationships with narcissists too for that matter, >> right?

[00:27:02]>> But to me, that would also be a sign that, okay, if this person's not putting in the footwork themselves, you can't help anybody that doesn't really want to help themselves. Right.

[00:27:13]>> Right. And what we have to remember whether it is the borderline personality that has some features in their makeup that predispose them to be abusive.

[00:27:27]Uh or the person on the other end who's doing too much to too much work in trying to mitigate the situation so that the other person isn't doing the work that they need to do to be a better person. What you have to realize or have to appreciate is that we are creatures of economy. We are hardwired that way.

[00:27:53]It's the strongest thing in our makeup.

[00:27:56]We want to do the least amount for the most gain.

[00:28:02]It's nature.

[00:28:04]And there's nothing particularly bad about that.

[00:28:10]We don't like expending energy unless it seems to pay off. So the that abusive borderline has adopted a pattern that to the best of their sensibilities at the time seems to work enough.

[00:28:32]And they also appreciate at a deep level the cost of change.

[00:28:41]So they're not going to change unless one of two things happens. Either the cost of change has to be reduced or the price of continuing has to go up.

[00:28:56]It's >> just that simple. And when the enabler keeps reducing the price or the cost of doing the same, it's going to persist.

[00:29:09]>> And you see that a lot, don't you?

[00:29:11]>> You see that a lot. It's just that simple.

[00:29:15]And so uh you know when I'm working with people even the most difficult you know I I built a career on people on other professionals throwing people away and throwing them my way.

[00:29:30]>> That's how I built the career.

[00:29:32]For some reason Dr. Simon seems to know how to work with these people. I sure don't want them >> here. Have at it. And actually once I got past all of my own prejudices and all the classical things that I was taught, all the traditional stuff that I was taught that I knew were ineffective with the a certain segment of my clientele.

[00:30:05]Once I got past that, I started to love the work.

[00:30:09]I started to love the work because you just have to do it differently and then everything starts to get better.

[00:30:19]And uh I did find folks with especially folks with very serious borderline personality dynamics challenging to work with. And sometimes I had to set extremely firm boundaries that uh that brought about the possibility of some really negative consequences to me.

[00:30:48]H >> you know you have to be willing to do that because sometimes feeling rejected a borderline personality can lash out in a way that can be very harmful to you.

[00:31:04]I even had one person uh unbeknownst to me bring a a firearm into the into the session and and make a veiled threat with it.

[00:31:20]So you you never know what can happen.

[00:31:24]>> Sure. when you're enforcing firm but loving boundaries with a person that is not yet of the mindset that you hope they will eventually be.

[00:31:38]So it can get really even dangerous.

[00:31:42]But one I the the best thing that happened was abandoning all of the old seemingly almost beautiful formulations and theories and whatnot and adopting a more realistic approach.

[00:32:05]one rooted in scientific skepticism and testing, rigorous testing and learning and abiding by what you learned.

[00:32:18]And I know one of the big ones is you want to people to focus more on how people think than how they feel. and especially when it comes to character disordered people, how it is a waste of time to be focusing on like the the feelings there because that can lead you astray and it's similar to other concepts too. But can you expand on that?

[00:32:43]>> Yeah. Well, I you know that's that's something I probably in my first three books did not u expand enough upon. But I did point out in the first three books that um with folks who are primarily as we say neurotic. In other words, they're riddled with a lot of unconscious uh unresolved emotional conflicts.

[00:33:14]riddled with a lot of unnecessary worry and concern uh because of their oppressive oppressive consciences.

[00:33:24]Um with those folks, you want to process feelings with them. with folks uh of disturbed character whose problems have much more to do with their ma maladaptive ways of acting. You want to focus on the thinking patterns, the distorted thinking patterns, the selfdeceptions um and the twisted ways of looking at things that predispose the behavior.

[00:33:52]However, I also think it's a waste of time to focus too much on those thinking patterns.

[00:34:00]>> What we know from cognitive behavioral theory in practice, what we know is that thinking patterns, especially attitudes, influence behavior. So for example, for example, if a per a partner in a relationship believes firmly that their partner's place is to be subservient, to be basically second banana in the relationship, um to serve their needs as opposed to advocating for themselves.

[00:34:41]If this is the mindset, then they're going to behave toward that person in a certain way in the relationship and likely that person's going to eventually have a problem with that and maybe they'll even talk their partner into coming into therapy.

[00:34:58]So yes, we do know that thinking patterns influence behavior, but the reverse is also true. And that's the part that nobody wants to pay attention to. behavior experience.

[00:35:16]Doing things differently, experiencing the results of doing things differently also informs the mind and changes the thinking.

[00:35:30]And that's where the axiom, it's a lot more powerful and actually a lot simpler to act your way into a new way of thinking than it is to think your way into a new way of acting.

[00:35:44]And clinicians by and large waste incredible amounts of time and energy trying to get people to think differently so that they may perhaps do differently when they should be focusing on encouraging the person to do differently so that in time they will think differently. think >> yeah because they do say we have to act our way into a better way of thinking as opposed to the opposite. I have heard Andrew Huberman I've heard him say that but he probably isn't the one that invented that.

[00:36:26]>> But before we continue, >> let me give a concrete example of this.

[00:36:29]I you know I I I kind of like to do my own handyman stuff around the house. And so I was I was I was trying to lay some uh landscape stones and and and putting the mortar in and and and doing my thing to to do do it the way I had always done it. And then um I got so that I was breaking my back and doing it and I hired some people and I was fortunate enough to hire some really good people who showed me a way showed me a way to do the whole thing differently.

[00:37:11]And then I had this aha experience and the whole task the whole enterprise changed its character.

[00:37:21]and my whole thinking about what I could and couldn't do in the way of my home improvement uh efforts changed because I'd just been doing it the wrong way.

[00:37:38]So yes, experience can be a wonderful teacher, but if you keep doing who who's the one that said uh Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing things over and over again the same way but expecting different results. Of course, he never said that, but that's that's the principle. If you keep repeating the same pattern, you're going to get the same results, >> right? change our patterns.

[00:38:08]>> Now, what is your definition of a character disorder and what kind of falls under its umbrella?

[00:38:16]>> Well, um I distinguish in my work, all my work between character and personality. A lot of people use the term uh synonymously, but uh the word character comes from the Greek. It means to means a distinctive mark.

[00:38:38]Uh it like the character uh on a printed page. The letters are they called characters? Uh comes from a it's an old printer's term. You put the characters on the plate and then you you run the paper. It's a distinctive mark that distinguishes uh something. And different personalities have different styles of relating. But what marks a person, the distinctive mark of their moral foundation, their moral compass, the manner in which they relate to other people uh in a principled loving way versus uh either a selfish or an unhealthy way.

[00:39:29]that defines their character. So there are some personality disturbances that are influenced in large measure by a really uh malformed, warped or even absent conscience.

[00:39:47]Uh and um that defines the character that distinguishes the character disorder from the personality disorder.

[00:39:58]So the personality disorder is >> for example uh there are there are obsessive compulsive personalities personalities who are so intent on doing everything to perfection getting it absolutely right. And you know what if I'm going to be undergoing brain surgery that's the doctor I want.

[00:40:23]I want the most obsessive compulsive one there because you know this is really delicate stuff and I could end up a vegetable otherwise. I don't want somebody says ah you know we'll try this and see where that goes.

[00:40:38]No, I don't want that. So but that does not make that person a bad character.

[00:40:46]Now can a can someone with obsessive compulsive traits in their personality be an impaired character as well? Yes.

[00:40:57]Especially if they use that to uh demand so much of others in a relationship and set all the rules so firmly that the other person can't breathe etc etc. Yes. So, but I do distinguish between the two.

[00:41:18]>> So, to see if I have this correct, character disorder to you is a more broad term where people that have personality disorders can also have character disturbances as well.

[00:41:31]>> That's correct.

[00:41:31]>> Right. But anyone could technically have a character disturbance. Doesn't necessarily mean they have a personality disorder though, >> right? And it doesn't necessarily mean that they have a character disorder. And by the way, those definitions we because of the times that we live in, we're having to completely reinvent our definitions.

[00:41:52]>> Right? the classic uh in the in the uh in the introductory paragraphs of the diagnostic manuals over the years, there were three main criteria for a disorder of personality.

[00:42:11]It had to be extremely extreme in its manifestation.

[00:42:17]In other words, over the top. It also had to be deviant from the norm.

[00:42:24]>> It had to be a a way of operating that was not normal and it had to cause distress including to the person. So for example, someone with an obsessivecompulsive disorder on top of their obsessivecompulsive personality might be really um really distressed by the fact that they have to count every step or that when they go into a room they have to take inventory of all these things. This may really bother them. I I I I once uh uh encountered a young child who had to count every leaf that he saw fell fall from a tree in the fall outside of his bedroom window. And then he would want to go outside and double count to make sure he got the count correct, you know, and and he couldn't sleep and this bothered him, you know. So these were the criteria that we used to use, the main criteria we used to use. Uh today the most egregious some of the most some of the most egregious displays of of poor character are not very abnormal and some of them are not over the top and most of them don't cause distress at least not to the person exhibiting the disorder. M >> so they're not unhappy about the way they're doing things.

[00:44:03]>> What are some examples of that?

[00:44:06]Well, I I don't want to get into the political realm necessarily, but we have we have a a a a we have a a a a person in high office who tells us openly that he knows very well what people say.

[00:44:29]He's heard it all. He knows that what issues people take with his personality.

[00:44:36]He's aware, like I say in my workshops with this rhyming phrase, he's aware but doesn't care. Doesn't care what other people think, you know. Uh and uh folks who folks who respond, you know, I actually looked up the term to to reaffirm, not not not as an exploratory thing. I thought I knew what it meant to be deranged, but actually revisited the term of where it came from, its early origins, what it means. And it is actually an adaptive response even though um it causes dysfunction uh and it causes pain. But derangement is a response to a reality that seems so extraordinary in a traumatic way, so unbelievable um that such a thing could be that the person begins to not only question reality, but the person begins to question whether they even want to accept that reality or live in that reality.

[00:45:55]That's the very definition of derangement.

[00:45:58]>> So I actually do have a syndrome.

[00:46:02]I do have a derangement syndrome because I witness some behaviors that I say this reality is not acceptable. M and you are reminding me of another thing that comes up because people will say you can't have a personality disorder such as narcissism, borderline or antisocial. It has to be impairing to your life. And then there's some debate about well a lot of these personality disorder types they seem to be causing harm to the people around them more so than to their own lives. It may seem >> well once again that's a millu thing.

[00:46:46]That's that's a socioultural zeitgeist thing. There was a time in our environment when such egregious behavior did not serve the individual displaying it well. So in the end it was self-defeating >> but not currently.

[00:47:07]>> Right. And some of it's the definition of impairment too though, right? Because I think someone with what I would consider a narcissistic operating system, it is an impairment. It just might not.

[00:47:22]The impairment might seem to be in the people's lives around them more so than themselves. It's especially if you ask them because I think a lot of them would say, "I'm fine. I'm good. The problem is other people."

[00:47:33]>> Yeah. Well, where the impairment is brings us into the spiritual realm.

[00:47:40]You see, I believe that we're here for a reason. There's a few things that I know for absolute sure about this life. It's not things I believe.

[00:47:51]I know them with certainty.

[00:47:53]>> And the number one thing that I know with certainty is that for me, this experience has an end.

[00:48:04]It has an ending point.

[00:48:07]I here in this world having this experience will cease.

[00:48:17]Right? So that begs the question, what am I doing here?

[00:48:24]And I have a foundation for that.

[00:48:27]I believe I'm here to learn love's identity because I believe that God is love.

[00:48:43]>> I believe that.

[00:48:46]So I believe that my purpose here is to know that identity to know that what that is largely through learning what it isn't.

[00:48:58]Right.

[00:48:59]>> Right. And if that's my purpose and if that's what every soul is actually seeking, then the impairment, the impairment in doing the unloving is that we move ourselves further and further from the ultimate goal of even being here.

[00:49:24]That's the impairment.

[00:49:27]We're setting ourselves back on the journey. That's why I titled my book that was going to be titled The Ten Commandments of Character, which it embraces. I titled it Essentials for the Journey because that's what the journey is all about for all of us, >> right?

[00:49:45]>> And you can't be you can't be truly emotionally healthy or psychologically healthy without being spiritually healthy, too.

[00:49:56]you just can't be. And the folks in AA who have successfully worked the program or any similar program know that to be true at a pretty deep level.

[00:50:09]Now, I'm glad you mentioned that part too because I think programs like AA and NA, they call something the disease of alcoholism or the disease of addiction, which they call a spiritual malady. And I think addressing the spiritual malady part can also simultaneously address character disorders and even sometimes narcissism and borderline etc. I mean and what do you think there is the spiritual component of narcissism borderline and other character disturbances like is there a common thread that's going through them all?

[00:50:48]>> Well with with the with the m Like as I mentioned earlier, there are various varieties and types and degrees of of severity of narcissism. But there are two fairly major divisions. One is a more compensatory vulnerable wounded type and the other is a more grandiose type.

[00:51:15]with the grandiose type, the folks who are legends in their own minds, >> for whom reality is what they say it is, who engage in what we have called in the past pathological lying. Lying for the sake of lying, uh lying as a as an habitual way of navigating uh life. For these folks, the spiritual dilemma has to do with a relationship to any higher power.

[00:51:51]And for some, for some it's uh a refusal to subordinate to any higher power of any kind, whether it's some kind of moral operating principle, some kind of principles of faith, u the law, it's a refusal to sub to be subordinate. Period. So I I have issue with any kind of higher power. I'm just not going to recognize it and I'm not going to submit to it.

[00:52:27]That's uh one possibility.

[00:52:30]The much more dangerous one is when I can't even conceive of a power bigger than me.

[00:52:42]>> For me, nothing like that exists. There is nothing bigger. I'm above the law.

[00:52:50]I'm above your con your reaction to me. I'm above uh uh the the true welfare of anybody else.

[00:53:04]As a matter of fact, if you if you dare to challenge me, I'll show you how valuable you are. I'll destroy you.

[00:53:13]You know, and for us to witness that level and remember things are in levels.

[00:53:26]There's no distinct categories for us to bear witness to that level of moral depravity and give it even a modicum of a past says way more about us in our present culture than it does about the individual displaying that behavior.

[00:53:50]Because there have always been those kinds of people throughout history.

[00:53:58]We just haven't worshiped them.

[00:54:02]Yeah. Well, I think that depends. I think sometimes they might have been, but things went off the rails and the the moral guard rails of societies definitely does change over the years and it can kind of go back and forth like a pendulum. Yeah, but >> we've had an incremental vicious cycle where as more and more character disturbance entered this the culture and society then norms and values and systems broke down. And as that happened more and more character impairment happened and as that happened more and more and more systems and values and institutions broke down. It's been a steadily turning vicious cycle incrementally over the last several decades. And it's not the only time in history that it's happened. It's not the only time in history that has happened.

[00:54:58]>> Of course, I I agree with that. I mean, and also back to the disease of addiction part. They say the disease of addiction, a disease of extreme self-centeredness, right? That's what they say the disease of addiction is. In my mind, there could be many things that fall under the umbrella, but they're probably all character disturbances at the least, but there's also probably others that have personality disorders in there, too. And I think especially when it comes to addiction, I think it highlights that spiritual component where if someone has whether it's the gambling bug or alcoholism or sex, shopping or whatever, it's almost like a form of possession to me.

[00:55:43]>> You get quote unquote possessed >> Yeah.

[00:55:46]>> by >> Yeah.

[00:55:47]>> a quote unquote demon. And I do wonder sometimes if that's when people talk about a demonic possession is kind of what they mean.

[00:55:56]>> Yeah. Well, some of the modern interpretations of what Dr. Bob and Bill W had in their original formulation, some of the modern interpretations really stretch the truth of matters quite a bit. Here's where the spiritual component comes in according to them.

[00:56:19]And uh Bill W was famous for saying that if there was one essential character quality that represented the cornerstone of all recovery of all successful recovery.

[00:56:36]It could be summed up in one word and that word is willingness.

[00:56:41]H >> so what happens to the person trapped in the cycle who is truly addicted whose life is now governed by the use of the substance uh at at that time in their life they are unwilling to stop because the cost of stopping is too painful.

[00:57:04]Once again, we go back to the hard wiring for us all.

[00:57:11]The withdrawal is too uh uh hard and at least for a moment I feel better and that's what I want. We're hardwired for that. So in a sense that's a defect of character, but it's also in the hard wiring.

[00:57:34]So, it's also not really a defect. So, what usually has to happen, and they describe this in the groups, is a hitting bottom where you just can't do it anymore, where where everything is falling apart, where there's just no way but up, you know, absolute rock bottom.

[00:57:57]And then and then comes the pivotal first three steps >> realizing I can't do this and for the first time and for the first time ending entertaining the possibility that some indescribable undefined able something might have the power to save me.

[00:58:34]And then the third is very pivotal.

[00:58:37]Becoming willing to surrender to that higher principle that starts everything changing everything even if I relapse.

[00:58:54]I think a big thing about this is there are some people that absolutely have an issue with a higher power, but I noticed you called it a higher principle. So for the people that struggle with a higher power, what would you say to them about okay, it can be a higher order principle?

[00:59:13]>> Well, and that's why the language is how however we understand him is in there.

[00:59:18]However the person understands this something bigger that that's fine.

[00:59:27]It's the willingness in the admission of defeat one becomes a little bit more willing to say try something else because it's clear that my way hasn't been working.

[00:59:46]this way hasn't been working. But for many, it had to be total and utter defeat.

[00:59:53]And then at least entertaining the notion that there's something more that might be able to rescue me, >> right?

[01:00:08]>> And then turning myself over. Some people for them their higher power is simply the group.

[01:00:14]>> Yeah. It's simply the support that they get in the group. Well, that's, you know, that's a good beginning for many >> because it helps them get some humility, right? That's a big part of it, right?

[01:00:24]Takes down that self-centeredness a notch and entitlement and grandiosity a notch and for those people and it gives them some humility to takes a step back and realize it's just not all about them and then try to work on some spiritual principles from there. And I mean, in my eyes, regardless of someone's issue, I think if you work on your character, try to be less self-centered, live by spiritual principles, regardless of your disorder, you'll be able to get whatever your ceiling is for your best possible outcome, >> right?

[01:01:01]>> I think that would be the avenue to get it.

[01:01:04]>> Now, granted, that ceiling will look different for each individual person depending on how bad they have been, etc. But to get to that ceiling, I don't see a better way. And I've seen there's also new research now that 12step programs, >> right, >> they can help people with narcissism, for example, and I think I can see why.

[01:01:25]>> But we live in times also. I mean this has to be said where we can witness grandiosity on a scale, rarely experienced and call it something else.

[01:01:49]Even give it a pass. Even champion it if it's serving our cause. That's how egocentric and selfserving and higher power demeaning the culture has become >> very we've been here before.

[01:02:13]>> Oh yeah.

[01:02:14]>> And the outcome is not good. The outcome is not good. History should teach us lessons but unfortunately it usually doesn't. We've been here before and we know the end of the story and it is not pleasant and we are going not happily along but very willingly along.

[01:02:40]Well, I mean I think it's very cultlike.

[01:02:42]Our political system right now has a lot of cultlike elements to it with the people that become quote unquote believers. And there's many versions of it, right? It's not just one version, >> right? I think the left has a ver has versions multiple.

[01:02:57]>> Oh, yeah. This is not this is not one side or the other thing. No, it's not >> right.

[01:03:01]>> It's not like there's a there's so many different ones you can go down, right?

[01:03:05]But then on the right, they have their version of a cult, too. But the thing I see is very few people, >> by the way, there's no shortage of narcissism in Washington, which other testament to the fact that we have to consider type and degree.

[01:03:23]We have to consider type and degree because even within types, the degree matters, >> right?

[01:03:33]I you know I sound like a broken record with that but for anybody that might be in the mental health field who might tune into this at whatever level of training they are if I could not say that a thousand enough times >> pay attention conditions are of different types and degree and everybody in every other aspect of medicine and science seems to know that cancer Canc is not just cancer. There are different types and even within types there are different degrees of severity with different outcomes and with different mechanisms and with different modalities of treatment. Everybody else seems to get this except people in mental health.

[01:04:25]>> I know why that is.

[01:04:26]>> Did I say that firmly enough?

[01:04:28]>> You did. I mean, I know why it happens because like with cancer, you can see black and white. Okay, is there cancer cells or is there not? But when it comes to mental health and personality, it's not going to be as black and white, right? So, it's easier to like it's not like you're taking a blood test to figure out if you have a personality disorder or test in something else, right?

[01:04:52]>> So, it becomes hazy for some people. But to go back to the other part though, what I find interesting is there's a lot of people that only think the other side is the problem, right? They don't recognize the issues as much on their own side, >> right?

[01:05:08]>> Or they think, "Oh, that other side's a cult, but not my side. My sides, we we're just the rational thinkers, and we're trying to save the world from that other cult." But the the irony is both sides end up thinking that about the other side. And people will say, "Well, the other side, if they get their way, it's going to be so bad that we're willing to tolerate some grandiosity.

[01:05:32]We're willing to tolerate some of this."

[01:05:34]And not even worse, they seem to be getting more of what they want done, the less likely they follow the rules.

[01:05:42]>> And so now the lesson becomes for the other side now. Well, apparently if you don't listen to anyone and you do what you want, that's the way. And so that's also going to happen. And I think it's bad when they all do it. But this is the the problem of our era right now. This is a humongous thing.

[01:06:01]>> Yeah. Yeah. you know, and we uh I mean, the way history works, the way our history has worked, you know, things happen that are pretty much inevitable when we're going down a certain course and we experience uh certain horrendous consequences.

[01:06:23]If we think the Holocaust was bad, wait till the next mass craziness happens.

[01:06:32]We never seem to learn except by hard knocks.

[01:06:36]>> Yeah.

[01:06:36]>> Extremely hard knocks. And then we recover some of our most essential principles. You know, we seem to find value in certain timeless values and and principles and moral codes, aspects of character that we've just largely parted company with for so long now. And it's costing us whether we appreciate it or not. It's going to cost us more as well it should.

[01:07:10]And when things get too bad, we will be forced into a position to recover some of those principles.

[01:07:21]But um in the end, I'm actually very hopeful because I do believe that there's a yearning in the human heart and in the depths of everyone's soul for something better.

[01:07:40]than the placated uh addictions that we all suffer from.

[01:07:50]We are all addicted in some ways to our various pleasures that keep us that keep us placated and that and that we want to hang on to. We behave very much pretty universally like the addicts in recovery uh used to you know and we don't want things to change and we don't want to think do things differently because it costs us it takes energy and it takes devotion and it takes adherence to principle to a higher governing power or or something bigger than us bigger than our own sweet selves.

[01:08:28]Uh but I'm hopeful. I think that we after a period of enough suffering, after enough damage is done, and there's more to come.

[01:08:37]>> Sure.

[01:08:37]>> Clearly, that we'll hit bottom. And that's the beginning of climbing back up. That's the model that we seem to follow quite naturally, >> right? I mean, in the beginning of your book, Character Disturbance, you did mention how John Adams said the Constitution was meant for a moral and religious people >> and and it wouldn't work >> right >> without it, >> right? He wrote a lot of stuff about the inter the interdependence of freedom and character. He basically said in a lot of his writings, if you give people of decent character maximum freedom, you just leave them alone.

[01:09:21]They've already got their moral compass.

[01:09:23]They don't need anybody imposing anything on them. They've got a solid sense of decency and moral uh foundation.

[01:09:33]Just leave them alone and they will naturally not only prosper themselves, but they'll create opportunity and prosperity for others in the process.

[01:09:44]But he also realized that in the absence of character, in the absence of character, it is natural for governments to want to control people through rules and restrictions on their freedom.

[01:10:00]And the last I I I actually did research on this. the last I looked that we have some several million statutes on the books uh communitywide, statewide, federally.

[01:10:16]Millions of rules on the books, enforcable by law and punishable under law.

[01:10:27]One would think if the rules were enough, if all the restrictions were enough, if all the punishments were severe enough, that we would be a a model society when in fact we're still dysfunctioning at levels unprecedented.

[01:10:48]I mean, I had never made the tie before between governments wanting to be more controlling with a lack of character in the people. I'd never quite made that connection, but I think there could be a truth in that for sure. And I think and here's the other thing that I think is a big big big problem is that until we can figure this part out, I don't see how we can move forward honestly. But get it so that we agree on what reality is and what the facts are at a base level.

[01:11:22]Because right now that's where a big part of the fight is happening. People do not agree on what reality is. That was that's not reality. That's a conspiracy theory. That's this. That's this.

[01:11:33]>> So >> once again, we're quichers of economy.

[01:11:36]It's easier to believe that than it is to reckon with the truth and to uh modify your stance, your whole outlook is easier.

[01:11:52]Just dis just dismissing things is easier than reckoning with things, >> right? Especially if the reckoning is to be done with a solid conscience, a solid moral foundation, a deep commitment to love. I'll go back to that. This whole experience is all about discerning the nature of love. Most people don't even believe that.

[01:12:27]But I that's a conviction of mine not because I studied it or because uh I just chose to believe it.

[01:12:38]Sometimes in life things happen or shall I say the message becomes so loud and clear that you can't not hear it anymore.

[01:12:52]And I know two things for certain.

[01:12:56]This experience is temporary.

[01:13:00]The second thing I know is that it has a purpose and once we know that purpose and once we do our best to live out that purpose everything changes everything.

[01:13:16]>> So I will say this to that that's also I think part of the argument some people will use to continue down the path they're going.

[01:13:25]They'll say my purpose, this purpose that I have, whatever it is, is so important.

[01:13:31]>> The ends are justify the means.

[01:13:34]>> Yes, I understand.

[01:13:36]>> And so that's I can see I know what you're saying, >> but I also can see how it might go off the rails in the wrong people's hands, >> right?

[01:13:46]Absolutely.

[01:13:48]Yeah. Well, we we've delved into territory we could probably talk about.

[01:13:54]Odd nauseium. Um um I did want to say that um I I just wanted to for folks listening uh In Sheep's Clothing has been a bestseller since its first publication.

[01:14:10]It will be 30 years in September.

[01:14:14]So I'm rewriting it completely. Um, and hopefully this coming September, a brand new version of it will be out, as well as uh three new pocket books, just little tiny reference books. Um, but uh, a lot has happened in the 30 years uh, since I first wrote it and first described this phenomenon we call gaslighting today. Um, so it's badly in need of being being updated. Um, and um, I I just wanted to put that out there. Hopefully this September there'll be a brand new uh, much more robust edition in addition to some pocketbooks.

[01:15:03]>> Ah, that's something to look forward to then. And where else can people find more of you and your work?

[01:15:09]>> On the blog at drjordsimon.com.

[01:15:12]I can put that in the runner here. Maybe >> I can put it in the description, too.

[01:15:20]>> Yeah, I uh if you wouldn't mind putting a banner there. I I use Streamyard myself. Um but I don't see on my screen where to create the banner, you can run that. www. drordsimon.com drsim o n.com. Hundreds of free articles on the blog and plus the ways to contact me. Awesome. And to leave people on a little bit of a teaser, I think one of the next times we speak, I would love to speak to you about autism and how maybe it can be like comorbid with narcissism, character disturbances, what undiagnosed autism could look like, causes, all of that. I think that would be a fascinating topic to dive into that I don't see that many people talking about it, but I think that would be interesting. By the way, that's the one exception where in mental health we have finally gotten it through our skulls that there are different types and degrees and we realize that the spectrum, right, the autistic spectrum is a lot wider than we ever thought. At least that's the one area where we have finally gotten it.

[01:16:33]>> And it's interesting to note why that happened and that's something we can talk about in that one too. Yeah.