Lal Bahadur Shastri And The Future India Didn’t Choose || Capital Calculus

追加: 2026-05-07

[00:00:00]Today I want to begin with the quiz.

[00:00:02]India has had 14 prime ministers but one of them served at the helm only for 18 months but this was indeed a very eventful stretch. This prime minister launched operation flood to solve India's milk problem.

[00:00:22]Initiated the green revolution to solve for India's food problem. created the border security force as an institution and last but not the least led India in the battle to neutralize Pakistani aggression for probably the second or third time. If you haven't guessed this prime minister's name so far, let me share it with you. I'm talking about Prime Minister Lalbadu Shastri. He was India's second prime minister. You're watching Capital Calculus. I'm your host Anil Padman.

[00:01:16]Sadly, despite all these accomplishments and one singular attribute of high integrity, Prime Minister Shastri is rarely remembered or rarely discussed.

[00:01:31]I wonder why.

[00:01:33]In fact, the similar question intrigued Sanjivit Chopra, a former IS officer who has just released a biography on PM Shastri. So I thought he's a perfect person to guide us through today's conversation and answer this rather troubling question that why did India almost forget Lal Badu Shastri? Welcome Sanji.

[00:01:57]>> Thank you Anel. It's a pleasure to be here with you.

[00:02:01]>> [clears throat] >> Sanjay I wanted to begin with you know very basic question to you what prompted you to write this book >> see one the fact that I was the director of the academy which is named after him so you know as soon as I took over as the director of the academy I went to visit the academy that's what a director would normally do you know go to all the I mean go to the sports complex go to the Christian uh place go to the library go to the computer room and things and I went to the library Uh I was a bit surprised that you know in that section on prime ministers and on section of leaders of India there were hardly any books on Lalphatu Shastri. I mean we had so many books on on Mahatma Gandhi. I mean the collected works of Mahatma 99 volumes. You have collected works of Neu. You have series of biographies on Indra Gandhi. You have the collected works of Lajatra. You have the collected works of Amitkar and there is there is a lot of material on people who have helped make this country. But there were not more than 12 books on Lal Bhadu Shastri. And of these 12 books, there are four or five books which I would say are really books in the sense that we'll call books. The rest were small pamphlets or small collected speeches or things of the sort or you know part of the series of prime ministers. So which set me thinking that why do we not have a fulllength biography of the person on whom this academy is named on whom this institution is named and I'll be Frank Anel before I delved into his life I was not aware of how great a human being he was you know it was in the quest of writing this biography that I learned so much and I I really regret the fact that I had been there earlier as a deputy director you know from the period 95 5 to 2002. At that time also I used to go to the library you know we used to talk about I used to talk about Shastri G but and every year there would be a lecture by his former secretary you know who also wrote a biography of his Rajeshwar Prasad. he would come and give a talk but some of the other you know I I I never got really involved in the process but as the director of the academy I felt that you know uh I owe it to to my institution I owe it to the person on whom this institution is named that I must do further research on that and that's what set me on the on the path and it was a fascinating path because there's so many aspects about his life which I never never never fully realized one thought that he is a you know he's a he's a good human being uh you know grew up and then became but then the twists and turns of his life uh the fact that he went to Lor the fact that he worked with Lal Lajatra the fact that he was so involved with the servants of people society the fact that he translated Mary Curi uh the fact that he was uh that he was fluent in English fluent in Udu fluent in Hindi you know and a shastri all these things then um sort [snorts] of made me realize that one has to one has to do justice to this great person.

[00:05:07]>> But Shastri was not his original name, right?

[00:05:10]>> No. His name was Vhma. Shastri was the title which he got when he was in the Kashi Vidyha. Uh and after that the the name Shastri has gone on. But but he got in fact he dropped his surname. He dropped his surname. He he was Lal Bhadur Vharma. He never wrote Burhurma because around when he was in school and that was a time when when he and another uncle of his they decided to drop the surname Burma from their title.

[00:05:35]>> Okay. So Sanji I uh there were one biography you mentioned Rajeshwar Prasad the other is Kar Manekkar. Yes.

[00:05:42]>> So your effort >> and there are two more there are two more there there is CP Servasar CP Servas was also was also his joint secretary at that time and later on became the head of the ICA or the international civil aviation organization and one by LP Singh LP Singh was a home secretary LP Singh had written LP Singh's volume is a slim volume you know Lal Bahadur the biography of a quintessential Gandhi and CPA is a is a is a more elaborate biography >> but but those were written much earlier I think maner was in the 70s and >> yes man is the is the is the non civil servant tradition biography >> he's a journalist >> he's a journalist and uh but meticulous sources meticulous sources I mean one must say that these are all people who had done but you know when you write a biography you have to look into into what other people have said you know for instance you learn a lot about so I was trying to read about the contemporary leaders of that time. So people like like Nilam Sanji Varedi, people like you know Hanuman Taraw, people like Zel Singh you know people like all those who were his colleagues you know their memoers their records their recall all that sort of you know helps us to uh to to recreate those times you know helps us to recreate.

[00:07:03]So I was curious as to a this time gap and you know you have more time to look back at history and revisit it not only fill the gaps but also reinterpret facts because there lot more evidence. So how does your biography stand out comparing to the previous efforts or what new direction you >> see what what I have done what I have done in this is that I have captured his childhood I've captured his you see because there are there are there are three distinct phases in his life in so far as sources are concerned one the moment he joins the joins the joins UP as a as a parliamentary secretary from 1946 47 there's ample records because he's speaking King in the UP assembly he's making statements. So it's a very easy coverage from that point onward because you have his speeches as the home minister you have his rebuttal. You have his you know acceptance speeches and then he's invited from 52 he becomes railway minister. That's one aspect. Uh you have a lot of information available.

[00:08:06]you have some information available on him from 1935 uh to 194647 because then he is the general secretary of the congress uh secretary of the congress uh the secretary of the general secretary of the alahhabad district congress committee a member of the alahabad improvement trust and the member secretary of the congress agrarian reforms commission so you get a lot of material about him but the real challenge was to look at him from 1904 to 1935 because that was a missing period that was a missing gap. So there one had to see where he was, what he was doing, who were the people he was associated with, what were their thoughts, what was the correspondence.

[00:08:48]So that was the real challenging and the most interesting part. For instance, you cannot capture if you say he's born in 1904 on 2nd October. That's one statement. But where was he born? He was born in Mughal Sarai. Mughulsai is an is a railway junction. His grandfather was there. His father had just passed away.

[00:09:08]What were his grandfather's thoughts?

[00:09:09]What was the what was the whole what was it to be a young kaest boy in that period? You know because uh because your your situation determines who you are, what you are and and the ability to get out of the situation because all kay were basically intermediary ruling class. There were postmen, there were school teachers, there were Pwaris, there was junior functionaries, not at war with the British state, quite comfortable with the British state. Uh but but but for him I think the move from Mughal Sarai to Vanasi Panaras that was a major major major difference. Now that is where you know you start thinking that had he grown up in Mughal Surai he may have become more conventional. I mean he may have done his graduation and then become a school teacher or you know maybe become a become a headmaster and felt quite happy with life. It is the move from it is the move from Mughal Sarai to Vanasi. It is the political firmament of Vanasi of that time. It is the firmament of Mahatma Gandhi coming to Vanasi at that point. is his admission to a school where he finds a where he finds a teacher in by the name of Nishkamhur Mishra who really adopts him you know and and really really instills that sense of patriotism and and that sense of that love for language that love for the mother tongue and that is possible that was possible in Vanasi because there's this whole tradition of of of Hindi parani samiti there's the whole tradition of the BHU there's a whole tradition of setting up the kashi vidya petit so all these are factors which have influenced his Right. So I wanted to capture that part of it and then [clears throat] most interestingly what most people do not know is his move to Lor. I mean Lalaj Patray who was at that point of time one of the tallest leaders of the country. Unfortunately we haven't given much credit to Lalpatray also. uh uh but you know he was at at that point of time he was the president of the congress in 1920 a very very popular leader mass leader you know with fluency in English and Punjabi and udu and uh so he was visiting Vanasi and he met the the he met Dr. Dr. Bhagwandas who was the acharia at the at the kashiya pet and tells him that you know you give me some some [snorts] young poets I want to I want to I want to strengthen my back office let's put it like this strengthen my back office now there is an interesting story to this also see when go had become the president of the congress he realized that you know apart from the public statement apart from the larger profile that you have to give you need a back office you need somebody to sort record all all the correspondence, reply to that correspondence because the Congress president was was like a de facto uh I mean he was the the public voice of the country, right? So they were they used to get a lot of letters and so you needed secretarial assistance and you could and and you needed people who were committed to your cause were willing to work at at at at survival level you know I mean they couldn't have been paid very well because it was a organization it was so that is how shastri was picked up by lalajay and he moved to lore in 1924 or 25 and was with him for 4 years now one can argue and say that Lal Lashpadra I did not write but but for Lal Lajutra he was too junior of I mean he was I mean he was one of his one of his many things so we don't find much references but we do find a lot of references about what he was doing there for instance he was involved with the Darkadas library that was a library from where Bhagat Singh would pick up his books that was a library where he read a lot because you know one thing which has always been of which which which one must always give credit to to Lal Bahadu G is that he was always a very inquisitive reader and his range of reading was very eclectic because uh from uh you know scripture to Kalmar to Harold Laskki and to Burton Russell you know all the greats of those times you know so he was wellversed in all of them very fond of Galip very fond of Sanset text very fond of the English writers of those times so in a way he became a very composite personality and I think Lor or brought out a degree of confidence in him uh which uh which which was of later great help to him and and the task which Lal Ashputra had given him was achar that is eradication of untouchability because he must realize that you know uh whatever may be said about the efforts of Mahatma Gandhi and Lajatra and the Congress leader and the Aryama they did create a lot of impact on the minds of the conventional upper cast Hindus uh who were dominant at that time to understand that untouchability is not okay that it is not it is not okay to to to live with untouchability that is why actually it was the samaj which which had first invited Dr. Ambedkar for a lecture uh but because the jatpath took mandal of lore they got uh they wanted Ambedkar to change a few lines they felt it's very harsh so Ambedkar being Ambedkar refused and that is why the annihilation of cast which is a very important you know testament that was actually meant for a lecture at the RSA at one of the RSA forums in Lahore but because the invitation was withdrawn he Dr. published it and it has become an iconic document itself. So that that that also is a is a part of the >> uh from all that you have said 1905 to 1934 is so compelling. [clears throat] 1934 to his demise is even more compelling.

[00:15:09]>> Pull all this together. Why has Larvadus Shastri been so less remembered in history? I think you know uh you see again it depends on on how you look at history. Do you look at history in terms of 5 years, 10 years, 20 years or do you look at history the very very long during you see immediately after him we had the personality cult come up in this country and that personality cult did not want anybody else to have any kind of acknowledgement and they this personality cult uh >> but it was also preceded by a personality cult.

[00:15:45]>> Yeah. So that's what I said that personality cult was sort of you know so they they wanted to present you know uh I mean it the projection was if it is neu followed by Indra Gandhi right so they did not want to uh want to want to consider this very important uh important period to my mind it's very important and I'm so glad you know that at least the academy was named after [snorts] him and that is I would give full credit to Mr. Rajeshwari he just took it up upon himself and it was named. So it was he who also gave the gave the shilam param kushnam it was he who gave is the the the the emblem of yoga karmasu koshalam. So you know because what happens is that if you do it then it is done and uh so fortunately the so at least the Apex training institution of the country is named after Dal Badu Shastri which is very very fortunate for us >> but you know Sanjie through your book there is a pattern to Lal Badu Shastri this understatement so in your book you talk about how he became an accidental MLA and if you look back in history though there was a design but he was also an accidental prime minister in the sense there was a lot of >> I won't say that he was busy because two things I must tell you on one that when he resigned as the railway minister his stock suddenly went up now a lot of some some people some cynics might say that he resigned because he wanted to get I don't think that is true because in 1956 he couldn't have imagined you know that in because that time there were many many tall leaders above him but I think that act stood out because that was the first act of giving up political power voluntarily. You rarely have examples in history where a person says look I take moral responsibility and by that he's created [laughter] a sense of difficulty for for his successes because every time a railway accident happens I mean now frankly speaking I mean the railway minister cannot be held responsible but the the fact that he was very concerned you know and it was the second accident in a row and he felt really really really hurt.

[00:17:52]So that is when you read his letters and you read his profiles you realize that he's a man a very sensitive human being very very sensitive human being. So when he resigned as the railway minister it was not a political act it was an act of it was his moral compass which which com which sort of you know made him feel that he can no longer uh you know bear responsibility for that. I think that is what and that is what really really really you know put him above all the rest. So that is one thing. The second point which one has to realize is that look he you know the other contestants for that time they were very deeply aligned to this or to that. I mean the fact that he was acceptable to everyone. I mean you know one is that you are that he was not partisan in that sense. I mean he was acceptable to the Congress left. He was acceptable to the Congress right he was acceptable to the opposition also in that level. So I think that all these are factors you know Maji was a taller leader in terms of his stature and age and everything but nobody could get along with him. So nobody wanted him you know. So that was one aspect which which was there. this there's Malvia and the others who were his other contenders because Malvia and he were both parliamentary secretaries together and in terms of uh in terms of political endowment in terms of you know in terms of many other things you know Malvia would have been a competition but but he couldn't uh couldn't make it uh another possible challenge could have been Jagjan Ram but uh at that time he had not really put in his stake and between the two I think Shastri was was a not senior to Jan Ram So these were the main contenders.

[00:19:39]>> So now you know actually it's a good segue to go into his tenure uh as the prime minister. But I just before that I just want to back up a little to tell our viewers that uh very few know that central bureau of investigation was an institution that he created when he was home minister.

[00:19:56]>> Yes. Yes. And uh >> in fact let me add here you see all these ideas even BSF was you know thought of when he was the home minister because he said that look you have so many of these state police state armed police which is not always put to use and the the likelihood of of all state armed polices having to come out together is very rare. He wanted to have regional armed. So that in the sense that you know if if Rajasthan armed police and Punjab armed police and Gujarat armed police if there could be some kind of an understanding that if there is a problem in in Rajasthan then the Punjab armed police could go there.

[00:20:32]And he first thought that let us have this coordination and let these police forces man the border because till 1965 it was being manned by the state police and there was and there was an exchange of especially in the case of Jammu Kashmir because Jammu Kashmir did not have an armed police of that nature. So the Punjab police was deployed on the Jammu Kashmir border. So no this he so he wanted this this this seamless coordination but the states being states had always taken the view that policing and law and order is a state subject. So they did not want to hand over their uh turf to their turf >> to the and incidentally congress chief ministers like DP Mishnra and all >> I mean they were jealous of him in a in a way you know so so DP in fact I've showed here that rustam gi who was the IGP of Madhya Pradesh was instructed by DP Mishra to oppose the formation of BSF and he ultimately became the the the first IG of BSF you know >> so my larger point what I thing is that uh wanted to bring that up because there is now another aspect to Lalbadu Shastri of this ability to think ahead for creating institutions. So now I want to come to specifically which I briefly alluded to in my introduction. Let's begin with operation flood the national dairy development board. You share a fantastic anecdote that actually led to the creation. Can you tell our viewers about >> Well, he uh you see he had gone to for the inauguration of a of a cattle feed plant to Anand but unlike uh the typical you know inaugurations you go cut the ribbon and go back. He said that I want to spend the night in a village. And he was then asked to I mean he then spent the night in the in the house of the of the local head of the of the milk producers corporate society a person by the name of Punjab Pai Punjab Punjab Rao battle. So while sitting at and the conversation continued till about 100 p.m. in the night. So he talked to everybody in the village. He talked to women. He talked to uh the the Shidulas families. He talked to everybody. And then he understood that you know this model is working well. Uh this model which which Dr. Kuran had developed of absolute transparency of letting people know what is the kind of milk that they have given. No restriction on the on the on on the no [snorts] lower limits on how much you can sell. He felt that this is one one example that can be replicated throughout the country and he was also comparing it to the failures of such schemes in UP and I mean he basically meant UP because that was his experience and he felt that it is not working there and that's where Dr. Korean said that look this is because this is owned by the farmers. This is a union which is owned by the farmers. The farmers are taking the decisions. In the case of other uh experiments in daring and uh and other interventions, it is the state which is making the the decision. So you know he was able to very clearly understand that there is a difference between state intervention and communityled growth or communitydriven initiatives. So I think this was a in a in in a way it was different from the typical Nuvian model because NU had very strong sense of the state. Nu believed that the state can solve everything. Uh this was different from from from Shastri's view. So I think it was a middle path to to to Gandhi's approach which felt that the state is useless and the and and the and the village or the the society can do everything to a stage where where NU felt that everything can be done by the state. So this was I think somewhere >> hybrid >> somewhere hybrid model which has worked well and which has worked so well in fact I have I've gone on record saying that this is the best best test example of of of India's interventions. I mean uh 90,000 cr industry and and followed by as I say in my book Nandani which is again a cooperative followed by Verka which is also a cooperative I mean all the nesters of the world they are they are far behind these interventions >> so true so Sanjiv similarly Shastri G started the green revolution idea of green revolution along with it there are other region interventions he undertook the setting up of the food corporation of India the idea of minimum [clears throat] support price. So you know he what I'm saying is that any initiative was very rounded like uh operation flood there was a strategy and a thought and institution was very key.

[00:25:21]It was never a ad hoc.

[00:25:23]>> See this actually goes back to the 1935 Congress agreement commission form. It is like a it's like a doctrinal thesis.

[00:25:30]I mean it's a it's a pleasure to read it. It's a pleasure to read it. He's classified all the kinds of land. is classified. What are the taxes that are being collected? What is the authorized uh uh revenue? What is the unauthorized rent which is being sought and all these things that you know the farmer must have a fair price, there must be a support price, there must be minimum wages and those who are landless there must be provided jobs. In fact, the entire template. So it is not just this.

[00:25:55]It is the template of G Ram G the the successor to MG NGA the FCI the CACP I mean all these institutions credit you know cooperative credit all these are very clearly spelt out in that very clearly spelt out in that you know so it's a and and and in fact one must also mention here that this report was prepared after taking feedback from all the districts asking the banks for their feedback back asking the state government of UP for a feedback asking the board of revenue for a feedback talking to the the statisticians of the of the of the then government. So all this then led to a proper report you know that this is what is what what this is what what what ought to happen and uh so I think when you base your policy on empirical data that policy will always be good I I won't say that policy will always but if your intent is right look that the first most important thing is intent the intent is very important >> and and if that intent >> and the the the long-term vision is based on empirical ground reality then you have a then you have a policy which will immediately >> because because you see before that you had to grow more food this campaign what does it mean grow more food what do you mean by say grow more food grow more food you have to tell me how do you grow more food you know so unless a policy is backed unless a policy is very clearly backed by step a b cde e this is how it has to be done that policy is is not worth the piece of paper it is written on you see >> so you know Sanji another aspect I mean I was reading from your book and also reading from other sources uh the PM Shastri was also very clear on fiscal rectitude >> he believed you know in a kind of it was not that populism and all that he may uh have had these slogans like Jay Javanjisan but end of the day he was very a fiscal pragmatist so I'm just connecting all these dots there is a very clear you know departure from his predecessor who was a larger than life prime minister talking of Jalalu.

[00:28:13]>> I could just say you see point is that whether Shastri was the PM or whether NU would have continued as the PM the planning process would have had to take a setback because there was no money.

[00:28:26]You see it is not that I mean the the the reason that there was a plan holiday was was was both idological and also because there was no money because we had spent so much money in the plans we had spent so much money in the plan there was actually no money that is why you had the rolling plan so ideologically he was not opposed to the concept of planning the planning commission continued he just didn't have the money I mean like a lot of reforms like even the 91 reform was not was was not driven because he wanted to reform it was driven because he no option. So you know I think it was so it is a combination of that factor which which which so so it's it's several factors which have which have gone into uh into making this but you're right in the sense that he was not ideologically committed to the very large state or the very large steel plant or the very large you know Soviet model of in fact I must point out here you see one of the reasons is that you know there was a contest of I mean 50s was a massive contest of ideas, major contest of ideas. I mean the the the Soviets on one side and the and the Americans on the other and they were competing in every field. They were competing in the field of space IIT Kpur and IIT Katakur >> and they were also in the case of agriculture what was happening was that the Soviets had proposed the large farm model you know and they set up this this this 50,000 acre farm in Suratkar and there their there there planners were on record saying that how can you do your agriculture with 1 acre 2 acres 3 [snorts] acres of land it won't work collectivize collectivize your farms and then professionalize those farms And that was the point which NU made in the 1959 Congress where he said that we must go in for cooperative farming. And that was the point of time when Cheran Singh said hold it hold it Mr. Prime Minister you cannot do it. It won't work. You do not know what farming is.

[00:30:19]Zel Singh has gone on record saying that you know we were so impressed by the speech of Cheran Singh that I felt that you know Neu's resolution would would be abandoned.

[00:30:30]But then given Neu's personality, we all had to vote for him albeit reluctantly.

[00:30:35]But now the point is you see that the resolution was passed but nothing happened after that. Now that is the that is what started happening towards the end of end of Mr. Neu's regime that grand statements are being made. I mean plans are being done but there was no wherewithal to implement it. So you said we'll go in for corporate and nobody opposed it but nobody didn't did anything about it. So I think these are the sort of things which which uh which in Shastri's time he was very clear about what can be done what ought to be done and and therefore he tried to do what what what what what was possible so how did he come to all those three decisions he knew what to be done how it can be done what can be done I just want to dwell on an adviser you referred to in your book Elkja who also subsequently advised Indra Gandhi on the rightward shift of economic thinking towards the end of her term. So >> see Mr. Elkha because he wrote his memoers and because he was more fluent and wrote more. So a lot of people got the impression that Mr. Elkha was was in a way you know driving a lot of that policy. But that's not true. That's not true because because Shastri his sources of information were very wide and very varied. You see the amount of time that he spent listening to people is remarkable. I mean in fact he spoiled his health by listen I mean he would just miss his meals have endless cups of tea but talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk so he would be talking to all kinds of people you know and and so the feedback that you get from the people is very different from the feedback that you get from an organized system. So because he was in constant touch with a lot of people he was you know for instance his his food minister Subramanion was I mean was a gem I mean so he had given him all the and and when Subramanion wanted to bring in all these things that was when the finance minister and Murajai spoke about fiscal prudence they said that if you go if you give such high prices to the farmers the the the budget will go for a for a six but he said no let's do it you know and and I I'll now give you a personal example you I have been secretary industries and secretary agriculture in two states and fortunately unfortunately these are the departments in which I spent a lot of my time I mean I've not been pushed around here and there so it's either been training institutions or agriculture or industry the one big difference between agriculture department industries department is that in agriculture department you go out to the field you talk to people you get a you get a slice of reality they tell you this is not this is not happening this is not happening whatever you do they'll tell It is not happening. Contrast that to the profile of an industry sector.

[00:33:17]Wherever you go, they say sir, you are great.

[00:33:22]So from the cific industry to electoral, they're all piling praises on you. So that that that contrast which I noticed you know between being secretary agriculture and secretary industry is a world of difference. Likewise because Mr. Shastri was not just dependent on one set of advice. He was talking to people I mean and and he would talk to his old uh you know people and one more instance I'll give you [snorts] you see there's this gentleman uh [clears throat] who was uh in the servants of people society and uh he was uh he used to meet uh Shasti G very often and uh tell him about you know what is happening in the field. So he would keep this dialogue on with a lot of people. This man's name was if I remember correctly Satpal G. Satpal was he was 93 or 94 years old when I met him and I'm so glad that I met him because he told me about you know he would go often to and a very simple gentleman you know and uh so I had a long conversation with him and then he said that now I'm very tired so I'm going to harad so you will live in Harajun come and meet me there but that week he he he sort of moved on but he used to tell me that you know shast would meet people from the servants of people society and servants of people society was a was a you know mass carterbased kind of an organization where people were living on on on survival basis so his sources of information were not just from the congress party not just from the IB not just from the officers but also from the volunteers of the servants of evil society which he was heading at that point of time >> final question to you from all that we have discussed is it possible that PM Shastri was not just a forgotten leader but a future India failed to pursue >> in his unfortunate demise premature demise.

[00:35:28]>> My point is that uh that had he lived longer there there are two or three scenarios. One is you see that the the the dogmatic shift uh you know the the shift to the dogmatic shift to the left the abolition of preip purses the the you know the the uh nationalization >> nationalization of banks all these things would not have happened or may not have happened because he would not because these were all decisions which were taken from a purely political point of view. I do not think any great study any empirical evidence went into studying that what is going to be the impact of nationalization. I mean you decided that banks should be nationalized and then there is that theory of essentialism in history which says that all right because banks were nationalized therefore rural credit went up. Now if the pro if the issue was enhancing rural credit there were other ways of having done it. Now one of the not so well thoughtout things about this is that because of nationalization of banks the cooperative credit system went for a complete toss. I mean the whole purpose of having the cooperative credit system was to was to ensure that the there is some saving and that saving gets reinvested. So so it is not that agriculture credit would have would have would have would have gone out of the of the window if nationalization had not happened. there was already an instrument available but because you have nationalized banks therefore the cooperative sector in this country went down. So I mean everything has multiple consequences. So that's the way I would like to you know uh to put it that uh that in the essentialism of history yes nationalization was good in the in that view prives were abolished it's okay but if you look at it in a you know it was a it was actually a sovereign guarantee which was given by Sadhap Patel and I'm hold not not holding a brief for the princes but I do hold a brief for Saddap Patel because a sovereign commitment made at a point of time has to be continued has to be accepted you know to be honored and so I think that those were those were steps which were which were which were in the real sense populist you know so and I think that also marked the beginning of populism which has not ended and which cannot end because all politics is competitive and all politics the revenue model of all politics is is to win an election like the like all newspapers must have a viewership like all podcasts must have you TRPs >> TRP so so I mean it's perfectly fine I'll be agnostic about that >> so the benefit of hindsight we can say PM Shastri's premature demise was an unfortunate accident as far as India was concerned >> absolutely yes certainly >> on an uh kind of poignant note to sign off thank you very much for speaking to us Sanjiv >> thank you Anil I really enjoyed this conversation >> indeed Lal Badu Shastri was a rare leader something that has clearly come out in our conversation with Sanjie and I do highly recommend reading his book. We will share all the details in our show notes. From all that we discussed and what I've read in Sanjie's book, PM Shastri was both quiet and grounded.

[00:38:45]Though his stint at the helm was very short, it was focused not on optics but on outcomes. In fact, the systems he helped put in place, whether it be agriculture to national security, continue to shape India decades later, which raises a final question in an age of constant visibility and political spectacle. Is India still capable of recognizing and learning from a leader like Shastri? Or do we only remember those who make themselves impossible to ignore? You tell me. Thank you for watching. Hit the bell icon so that you don't miss any updates. And please do share your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions with us. I'm available on X at Capital Calculus. I'll be back next week with another episode. Till then, stay safe.

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