BOUNDARY BETWEEN ANCIENT RITUAL AND CONTEMPORARY LIFE with Laurence A. Frame

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-12

[00:00:24]Aloha everyone. This is another freedom to feel conversation and my guest today is Lawrence a friend frame. He is a veteran educator, the author of Living with the New Guinea Head Hunters: Through a Rattled Time Machine, and a long a lifelong sports enthusiast whose remarkable career blends teaching, storytelling, and adventure. So, I'm reading this off of my screen. This is a brief bio about you, Lawrence, is your full bio will be at the end, also on the podcast notes. Um but um the question that I often start all my conversations is one that's very fundamental to me for some reason.

[00:01:06]>> How would you introduce yourself? Who is Lawrence in this very moment?

[00:01:10]>> Lawrence at this very moment is a very patient person who has tried three times to get on this podcast. And so, um, last night when I went to sleep, it wasn't much different than the other three times, except this time I really I really could use a little bit of more sleep, but I feel I feel like I could go out and and play something, play a game or um visit an island.

[00:01:41]>> Yeah.

[00:01:43]And yes, I'm I'm okay with uh >> the assault of questions.

[00:01:50]>> Yes. Thank you.

[00:01:52]>> Sure.

[00:01:52]>> What a beautiful um introduction of yourself on your own words. Um I see no labels attached to it. Did you just be present? What's how I'm feeling in this moment, how my body is feeling, my mind?

[00:02:04]This is a um Thank you so much for the surprise answer. Thank you.

[00:02:09]So, I want to start with the when I came across your book, the title of your book, and I looked at it. I want to let me put it in here, and hopefully this I didn't test it before. Usually, it works. I wanted to show the um the cover of your book.

[00:02:27]>> Oh, thank you. I uh I drew that and painted it.

[00:02:32]>> You did? Wow.

[00:02:34]>> And it's on my wall, too. If you can look back there, you can see it.

[00:02:39]>> Yes, I can. Yeah, I can see it there, too.

[00:02:41]>> That's the original watercolor painting, >> right? That is amazing. So, you're an artist, too. So, veteran educator and the author, and I didn't have the artist here for some reason, that label. I apologize for that. Um, very much, um, you very much deserve that. The title of an artist, and what's not to love about artists? So, thank you for the for that knowledge.

[00:03:07]>> And I've illustrated all these uh illustrations in the book. So, that's took a little bit longer to do it that way.

[00:03:15]>> Right now, I really wanted to get a hold of a copy of your your book to see it to just touch it and see them. I usually get copies.

[00:03:24]>> So, when I came across the title, I usually go by what I see, what's in front of me, and what it evokes. And then the word head hunters kind of >> yes >> it stops you with almost like this um >> well a glimpse of violence and aggression. I mean head hunters feels like very much like more on the death side than the living side. And the interesting is that the first word in the book is living and head hunters to me symbolize death. But talk to me about the title. Why the I will start here.

[00:03:57]Why this title?

[00:04:01]>> That title uh because it's appropriate to separate a peaceful mundane world that we're used to >> except in Hawaii.

[00:04:16]>> Yes. and a carrier headhunting community that that permits head hunting in social uh realms in uh New Guinea and um the the difference is quite quite broad. So >> this was a challenge for me to follow up these eccentric kinds of behaviors that people from the islands uh of New Guinea were um more noted for than I think any other island in our world.

[00:05:01]>> Right.

[00:05:03]Wow. So they literally head hunt. Um I was hoping that would be more like a metaphor for something but it's um actually very um something >> they do more than head hunting. They also do if you if you're not a if you're not a a wife who is paying attention to your husband, they cut off legs and arms and >> my god. and uh finally you die just being cut like that. But that was a an eyewitness uh Father William Ross who was there in the 1930s watched not only tribal warfares and I can talk about what he told me because it's interesting. I didn't see any. And um the only way you can get to see a tribal warfare is probably through the word of a of a witness. Right.

[00:06:02]>> And they also told me about the results of unloyal spouses who can get butchered if their husband is uh not happy with the their spouse's behavior.

[00:06:24]So, but they usually they got their name from head hunting, not from other stuff.

[00:06:28]That's that's other things that I wanted to just throw in there to make it seem more balanced.

[00:06:37]>> H wow. Uh what an interesting um yeah kind of balance and actually hearing about women getting um hurt like that and care >> that hurts.

[00:06:51]>> Yes, it does.

[00:06:52]>> Wow. So uh that makes me think about this very uh a kind of society civilization that's very much um centered into power and overpowering women, right? The females and uh the male it's kind of more of the um let's say the leaders or the ones that control that those kind of >> suddenly it's patriarchal when things like that happen, >> right? Right. That is earmark, >> right? That's Yeah, that's a label that we use. But basically, it's about control, isn't it, Lawrence?

[00:07:30]Amplify, you know, money to control power, >> isn't it?

[00:07:33]>> I I imagine she doesn't have much to say. Uh before that happens, you know, you just somebody saw her maybe and then it was reported and sorry, but you can't speak for yourself. Unbelievable.

[00:07:51]>> And the person that I have in mind who I'm talking about was acquitted in a u in a in a courtroom in uh a larger town away from the mountainous area. and he was acquitted and he came back and was telling everybody that uh he wasn't afraid of the white man because of the results of the uh decision of the court.

[00:08:25]>> So, uh he got away with it, I guess.

[00:08:30]>> Right. Right.

[00:08:32]>> For a while.

[00:08:33]>> Yeah. For a while.

[00:08:34]>> He had a couple other wives, too, though. So he, you know, he has to, he has to be careful.

[00:08:42]>> I see. Gosh, that >> I hope he was I hope he was careful and considerate.

[00:08:47]>> Yeah, me too. Me too. And that will lead me to um if I if I just came across your book, I have all these guided questions here and and tons of questions. But before that, talk to me about the second uh the subtitle of the book. So through a rattled time machine, >> right?

[00:09:07]>> That makes me think about Yeah. time obviously, but in the past, present, future. But talk to me about that for a moment.

[00:09:14]>> The rattled time machine is um an an indication that to be rattled it took a long long time.

[00:09:25]And uh I'm talking about this time machine that goes back to the Paleolith Paleolithic era which is 30 about 30,000 years ago. So that's why the the title rattled or the subtitle rattled is sort of torn up a little different color because things have been battered back and forth and civilization has been battered back and forth in 30,000 years and tribal warfare >> and nevertheless through the will of our God we have a survivor.

[00:10:06]We have survivors >> really.

[00:10:10]>> Wow. And that's uh >> and I was witnessing that was my that was my way of witnessing this whole this whole um um imagery was to be looking at it and uh referring to it as a part of a time machine. a time machine back into the past. And that's what I initially got excited about and I started thinking about this time machine. I could go back and see it if I well if I went by myself. That would be the uh one way of getting to it. But it's something it's a figment of the imagination really because I was taken away from that era area. I only stayed there about a week through another time machine which was a helicopter and it only took me a half an hour to get back where I had originally started from.

[00:11:24]>> Right. Whereas it took me uh five days to get through the jungle trails to where I was finally sort of like rescued by the administration of Australia.

[00:11:38]They had a they had a house there and so I I finally I finally found it.

[00:11:48]>> Right. So yeah, it it really makes me think when I think about time machine. I know a lot of people might think about the past, but it's and then I'm thinking metaphorically thinking about civilizations who still live in the past, but then we can also take the time machine to be right in the present moment and also in the future. So it's kind of this all these timelines kind of intersecting in a way, >> right? Um so um a question that comes to mind immediately when I I saw your book and then I read part of the story is how did you for those who are listening how or watching this video how did you get into this this whole experience with the indigenous tribe what's the backstory of that >> it probably started when I was on the island of Guam I was teaching on the island of Guam and then we had a summer vacation coming up and my roommate who was a slick guy, >> I think he even had a sports car on Guam. And no, nobody brought sports cars to Guam, but he did.

[00:12:52]And uh he asked me if I wanted to go to Hong Kong this summer and help him chase down girls.

[00:12:59]>> Oh. And so I told him, "No, I'm more interested in in finding lost dignitaries >> in Guam." Because I had read a little bit at that point about the disappearance of Michael Rockefeller.

[00:13:18]And so that was one of my concerns. And I wanted I just wanted to see for myself how it was to survive with them if I would survive.

[00:13:33]And um so I didn't choose the easier way out, the civilized way out. I choose my way.

[00:13:43]And that's uh how we parted ways. I don't know where he is now. But I certainly um think I took the right path although I'm single right now.

[00:14:00]>> Yeah. So you might reconsider right his uh his proposal if you find him again.

[00:14:06]Um this is u so what was the motivation behind it? just uh here because you sound to me very much like a historian in a sense that you have this very curious mind but uh the adventure this kind of adventure um kind of reflects danger so why would you choose that I'm still kind of uh wondering why would you choose a path of of adventurous danger >> maybe I was looking for danger and um at my age I think I was about 21 then or 22, >> I uh didn't consider death right away as a threat.

[00:14:48]>> Yeah. Right.

[00:14:48]>> I I just think about it 60 years or more later and realize that um death wasn't a consideration then, but wow, why did I do it now? Right?

[00:15:02]>> Thinking about what happened to me? Why?

[00:15:04]Why? And so I I came out with a a nice story to tell.

[00:15:12]But I it had been hidden within for over 60 years. And I didn't tell talk too much about it.

[00:15:19]>> I wrote little art little notes that I keep I keep sort of like a diary >> of important thoughts that I have each day if they come each day. They don't come all the time, but when they do, I write them down because if I don't, they're going to fly away and maybe some of them won't come back.

[00:15:40]>> Yeah.

[00:15:41]>> Yeah. So, thank you for answering my question. That really, really resonates true and um makes sense, right? When you're young, you don't really contemplate the idea of death or dying.

[00:15:52]It's just about living at its fullest and doing >> foolish things sometimes. Not >> Oh, yeah. Well, you don't think of him as foolish as a youngster, though. It's some something different and it's a challenge. That's what it is. Challenge.

[00:16:08]>> Yes. Yes. And with that, my question is um was it this one of the most um let's say I would say meaningful, powerful, dangerous, interesting experiences that you have had in your life. up to this point it was it was a it was exciting and I I think I was looking for something unusual something exciting.

[00:16:36]>> Yeah.

[00:16:37]>> Something that was exceptionally different >> and um what I would like to come back and tell tell the story or the effects of that and fortunately I made it back.

[00:16:52]>> Yes, you did. Yeah. Thank you for writing your book about it. It's >> Oh, thank you so much. That's so sweet.

[00:16:58]>> Yeah, I love the I mean, I love the art.

[00:17:00]I love that you're an artist, too. And storytelling has a very very potent um let's say uh weight and significance for all of us. It's really a way of guiding younger people, even ourselves, back to some kind of wisdom or ground.

[00:17:21]There's something about storytelling that's one of my main interests now of ways of sharing wisdom or anything that anything of meaning really of significance. So I I I really appreciate you writing the book and the question another question is why fiction Lawrence? Why not the memoir?

[00:17:42]>> Oh it's not really fiction. It's a combination which I thought was unusual.

[00:17:47]>> Yeah. I mean, it's either one or the other, but this was had me thinking, well, what is this, >> right?

[00:17:54]>> I've got parts in here that are true >> that I experienced that I did. And then interwoven around them is the fictional uh mind bursting type um that no one in their right mind would probably consider doing, but I put it in the novel. I wrote it in a novel to to sort of like in some kinds of instances I would take myself or the protagonist out of the whole scene and bring them bring him out of it and u put him somewhere else when I wanted to and I thought that was powerful and then I could go back to that later on sort of like a symphony >> um a threepart symphony symphony a tertiary type symphony where you go from A to B and then you go back to A again >> and that's what I I sort of wrote it in that kind of uh mode and uh I thought didn't make too much sense at first but then the more I thought about it I was just thinking that's a that kind of approach takes takes uh some kind of writing to be able to get it to make sense and to to fit it in because you're you're sort of pulling apart out and you're putting it back again. And I don't know if um if the readers some of them might not be able to follow that but that was that was my u my approach my first approach because what I had written before that were uh educational booklets for school usage and now I now I'm into poetry. I have >> wow >> a nice a nice big booklet on poetry that >> it's just waiting to get out of the computer. But >> I'm I'm so I'm so excited by this because just see looking at the just looking at the uh picture of the cover.

[00:20:10]>> Yeah.

[00:20:11]>> Really takes me back. It just it just sort of like >> Yeah.

[00:20:16]evocationally sends me back and it puts me right there in that picture.

[00:20:21]>> That's how exciting it is.

[00:20:24]>> Yes, it that it carries this evocation.

[00:20:27]Yeah, that's the word. It really Yeah, it takes us to a place that to me is unknown because I didn't have the experience, but it it still feels pretty real in a sense. It's kind of uh it's fascinating to acknowledge that, to see that, to notice that. Um, what are your poems? And I change just uh moving the subject from your book to the poems that you're writing. What are the what are they mainly about? I'm curious to know.

[00:20:56]Oh, well, I have a couple here that would be related to jungle life or tropical life or exotic life, >> but I mainly wrote poems about uh from Calaveris County in in California and I call them the California Calaver Cal California Calaver Chronicles.

[00:21:26]And uh they're mostly about wilderness poems around a lake. And the lake is um >> just a place where I go and where I just let the breeze come by and the breeze brings in poems. Would you believe it?

[00:21:45]It brings in poems. I can stand up >> and pretty soon maybe the right breeze comes by and I've got two or three poems just standing there.

[00:21:54]>> Yes.

[00:21:55]>> That's you know and so I figured this is fun.

[00:21:59]>> Wow. That's >> But u I do have one on papaya.

[00:22:03]>> Yeah.

[00:22:03]>> If you like papaya.

[00:22:04]>> Love papaya. Yes.

[00:22:06]>> And I do have one on mel I think a melon. And then I have one on a surprise on Bigfoot.

[00:22:16]Oh, very cool.

[00:22:16]>> And I have them here with me. If you'd like to hear maybe uh some of them, I could I could read it to you, but that might be if we have time left or something like >> Yes. Yes. I would love that. Absolutely.

[00:22:29]>> You have a lot of questions.

[00:22:31]>> Yes. Gosh. And I can just go on and on.

[00:22:33]So, I love that your connection to nature. I feel that to the natural world. Um so that says a lot about you too and your expression in in this lifetime. I'm very spiritual. So that's the lens which I see the world. So everything to me is like the invisible expressing itself through somewhat visible which we know it's not as tangible as we think it is. Um humans and everything in here this in this existence. But do you have um any spiritual views or practices? I'm wondering if you have I see clearly your connection to nature but talk to me for a moment about spirituality. Do you have any views?

[00:23:16]>> Well, I do have heavy views about that because um after 60some years I was wondering well what did bring me back?

[00:23:25]What preserved me? And then I remembered it seemed to make sense that our Lord was with me all the way when I had that feeling of uh of invincibility.

[00:23:40]It didn't really I didn't it didn't make me into a pro a dominating force that would zoom around new people, >> right? But it made me feel that I could approach this area and go around this trail here on on the bend and see these huts down there. I could go into those huts.

[00:24:01]>> Yeah.

[00:24:01]>> By myself without any weapons >> because our Lord was watching over me.

[00:24:07]And um >> in a way like I sort of like share this book with him. And I also put in the uh end of the book towards the end of the book I put a a favorite hymn in there.

[00:24:21]So there's a hymn in there at the end.

[00:24:24]Um how great thou art and um >> I appreciate that getting put in. And so it's it's a pretty uh spiritual leaning type approach, but it's not heavy. It's not it's not something that's dogmatic, but it's there because I poetically say um with Jesus always near, there's nothing to fear. And that's how I sort of like almost ended the book.

[00:24:59]I've almost ended it in several places, but then I could picked it up and then went to California and um visited Central America where I really got into a >> very precarious event which Yeah. the guy was running around a car with a pistol pointed at me.

[00:25:23]>> Oh, he was running because I started running and my friend said, "Don't run in Spanish." Yeah, >> but that was pretty uh and that and and those kind of stories are also included in this, but they don't they don't relate to the direct uh title of the book, but they're in there, >> right?

[00:25:45]>> The mop up things at the end.

[00:25:49]>> Yeah. So, >> plus I have a poem at the end. I have um >> a um >> an ending poem that is directed towards the experiences in New Guinea.

[00:26:03]It's a prelude. So there's there's a couple preludes in there. One poem at the beginning right after the preface and one poem before the index.

[00:26:14]>> Right. So you included them there too.

[00:26:16]Yeah. That's >> That one's long. That the second one is pretty long.

[00:26:21]>> Right. Oh, I don't have that in front of me now, but I will now. I'm very curious about um reading your book.

[00:26:30]>> Thank you. Yeah, I love their connection. Um I mean to adventure, life is an adventure. Also the u the fear thing that's an interesting thing. Um how much we fear separates us from God is basically this a separation. Yeah.

[00:26:47]Completely.

[00:26:48]>> Stay away from that. That's a taboo. But it's it should not be a taboo because we're in a spiritual world.

[00:26:54]>> Yeah.

[00:26:55]>> The natives are in a spiritual world. I mean, we we all most of us believe in spirits and um and the beyond life. And >> so, um it's a common thing, but it's not thought of as a common addition to writing. I I don't come across it very often. It's sort of like a timid thing that if you do it, it takes it takes a fortitude, but if you don't, it's well enough left alone. And I I don't I don't appreciate living that way.

[00:27:30]>> Right. Right. Yeah. Thank you for the inspiration, the message, and the inspiration about that. That's that's h so important to me. It means a lot. So, thank you. Going back to the book. So, I have my guided questions here. Uh, so the protagonist's name is Alan.

[00:27:52]Alan. I um Why Allen? That's another It comes to me immediately like is that somebody you know or a >> It is. It is.

[00:28:00]>> Yeah.

[00:28:00]>> It's my middle name >> and uh it's my son's first name. My >> my son's first name. So, um, I I wanted to write it and use him as the protagonist to honor him since he's been such a loving and >> uh, >> just a u very successful son who is shown lots of love towards his dad. And so >> I I hope he appreciates being put in this role because sometimes u sometimes um we don't we don't know how big this thing is going to be and you know it might it might uh bring people out of closets a little or >> it might make us more transparent than than we thought we would be. So, I I don't know about the reaction on that one, but >> he he appreciates seeing his uh picture on the back of the book.

[00:29:08]>> On the back of the book is his picture, my picture, and my grandson whose name is Evan. And so, my the apayo or the >> surname for my son is Evans, a plural Evans, >> right? But that's comes from my grandson Evan's name, first name.

[00:29:28]>> Right. Thank you for the backstory there too. Yeah. Now it makes sense, right?

[00:29:33]Lawrence a frame. So A is Alan, right?

[00:29:36]That's >> right. Thank you.

[00:29:37]>> You're grateful.

[00:29:38]>> Ah, so um the next question here, the the guided questions. So Alan's journey begins far from New Guinea in places like Pennsylvania, Arizona, and Mexico.

[00:29:51]Why was it important to include these early experiences?

[00:29:57]>> That was my vestage uh of life when I was young and just uh trying to develop myself and I had the fortune of growing up in a lakefront >> Great Lakes area.

[00:30:16]>> Yeah. which was uh very uh romantic to watch. The waves go way out there in the lake and >> yeah, >> it gave me ideas uh to carry on or go seek the seek the rest of the world eventually.

[00:30:36]>> Yeah. uh bigger places, bigger oceans, lots of islands to visit, >> and of course many cultures to find. And u well this one was much different than a lot of them. So I thought this one would be intriguing.

[00:31:01]>> Yes. Yeah. Um, I mean to me beyond intriguing. It just kind of um uh it evokes too. It's funny how this word keeps coming back. Evokes like almost like this ancestor ancestry in us. you know where we came from as humans very primitive and very connected to earth and and very much um >> into the whatever whatever it was that the knowledge that we had we just expressed it. Uh there was um very it's just fascinating to see how we can be very um connected only to one reality which it is only the body and the and the mind what it's here very present and very survival in a sense like uh just behaving by survival mechanisms. So that's u something that's coming coming to me as a a very powerful message how they are levels of reality. So that's the survival mode, the immediate um fear-based kind of way of interacting with reality and with others and whatever is in front of us. But then there's the different levels there. The level of the soul, the spirit, as we talked briefly, >> that kind of changes everything from my perspective. It goes back to love and >> kind of being it's okay to lose the body even in the name of love. It's okay to do that. So it's it's fascinating how do you see that as an evolution of of the human race or or or just how things will always be?

[00:32:39]>> Well, that's way I looked at that rattled time machine. Uh the rattled would be going way back. Hey, 30,000 years is it's quite a trip. And uh I'm sure that's just touching the top, but the 30,000 years tells us of u the evolving of this culture, this one that we're looking at an evolving of the of it so that it presents itself now. And it it to me is very primordial.

[00:33:14]And um you know, you once again you look at that that archer on the book cover.

[00:33:22]>> Yeah.

[00:33:22]>> And he's got uh sort of like minimum minimum minimum design on and um that's pretty it's pretty uh spectacular to see >> people actually not prancing around for a parade, but in some respects that's his uh >> that's his dress that he wanted to wear.

[00:33:46]>> Right. Right. So yeah that's a way of living a way of being uh the only way they know to be in a sense right some of these cultures.

[00:33:56]>> So the next guided question is how did those early adventure adventures prepare Alan you for what waited in New Guinea?

[00:34:12]Well, um I was affected by the time that I got off of the the cruise boat that sent me to Australia and I I went into the streets of this port.

[00:34:29]>> Yeah.

[00:34:30]>> And >> and there were uh people who walked by me and who called me masta masta. And I thought, hey, that's that's okay with me. you can call me master. I don't >> don't disagree with that. But >> then there were others who didn't even want to pass me. They would cross the street and get on the far side instead of passing me directly. So that sort of u I wondered about that. And so there was a dichotomy of of reactions and one being u maybe positive, a little positive and the other one was not. It was sort of neutral.

[00:35:16]And so um that gave me an introduction as to how how the actions and the receptions of the people were just towards me throughout my experiences in New Guinea.

[00:35:34]That's how it seemed to be a um receiving uh by some and a rejection by others. And I found that true to >> wherever I went that >> I guess you can't please them all but still >> you don't that way have a good idea as to who you can rely on and who you can't.

[00:35:59]>> That's true.

[00:36:01]>> Yeah, that's a very good way of knowing that. Yeah, I never thought it way but it's so true. Yeah, it's so so true.

[00:36:08]Huh. Yeah, I see that. um clearly too by being in your presence and having this conversation. I know we we're not even in a we have a lot to go here but you you already kind of uh um sending a lot of important messages. So very insightful messages already. Yeah. I I call them wisdom. That's what I call >> wisdom. It's what we know to be true.

[00:36:32]Yeah. What works. So thank you. Thank you.

[00:36:36]>> Thank you so much for your kindness.

[00:36:38]>> Yeah. Thank you for being here. So the next question is, was there a specific moment when the journey shifted from curiosity to something more serious or dangerous?

[00:36:54]Well, I anticipated a danger point when the first night that I was there in the huts and and awoke from asleep and had all these people surround me with tor couple torches stuck in there and >> yeah, >> people with uh white ochre under their eyes. These are all males, adult males.

[00:37:18]And then their little children was was with were with them. Oh, >> and uh so they were looking at me and I had just awakened and I I was really uh frazzled as to how to interpret this. And so later on I shared some I shared food in a smart way. I shared sugar cane with the children. They just loved it. And the males men I uh shared sweet potatoes or cowpow they call them.

[00:37:56]>> Mhm.

[00:37:56]>> And uh then which surprised Well, we went outside when it was getting sort of dim and I took movies of them and then I also taped their music that they and the chanting that they were making. So when I replayed the music, what do you think happened?

[00:38:21]>> Yeah. They felt more at ease in your presence and it befriended you.

[00:38:28]I I would guess that they >> they started back with their singing along with the tape. And so it was like, wow, they're not they're not listening.

[00:38:39]They're going back to chanting. And so that was pretty nice. And then a little bit later, what surprised me was the males asked me to go with them on a trip outside of the hut.

[00:38:55]>> Yeah.

[00:38:55]>> And I didn't feel good about that. I thought leaving these children by themselves was a little unusual, >> right? But were they going there to um to um injure me somehow or put me into a test of somehow, right?

[00:39:14]>> Or just leave me in the dark.

[00:39:17]>> So I I just didn't I didn't say no. I don't think I I could say probably no and that was about it as far as uh understanding is concerned. I could speak some pigeon English, but I I uh didn't have to really argue the situation. They just left. They they realized that they somehow realized that I didn't want to go with them and they accepted it. I was surprised that they accepted it. And so I was there with the children for a couple hours until they came back and it was ready to go to bed.

[00:39:58]Right. Wow. That's an um another interesting situation.

[00:40:04]What do you think they noticed um in you in that moment to just let you go and and not follow them or not go with them? I'm wondering what Yeah. Do you have any ideas?

[00:40:18]>> Good question. I haven't heard that one before, but um I don't know. Um whatever it was, whatever plan it was, they they let me get out of it, >> right?

[00:40:36]>> Maybe they had a special place to take me or a a place that I could sleep by myself.

[00:40:44]>> Yeah. But they don't usually make little teeny houses which are pictured on that u front book cover.

[00:40:53]>> Yeah, I see that.

[00:40:54]>> And I had to tell the artist uh that I wanted a house tambber which is a real long a long long house thatched roofed house, >> right?

[00:41:08]>> With lots of people come in there and visit. It's like a visiting place.

[00:41:13]>> Yeah. But they didn't the artist didn't understand u about what I really wanted.

[00:41:20]But you can you can find the house tambber on my website >> and that's a good picture of it there.

[00:41:28]But there is a those little shacks don't really exist. So I don't I don't know what kind of a hut or what kind of a plan they had for me. I had I had um ideas and so what I did is I fantasized and wrote those ideas and made them into uh actual scenes.

[00:41:48]>> Right?

[00:41:49]>> And um >> some of them I I actually put in the book, others I didn't put in the book. So that was a fear. I didn't want to get boiled in a pot of water either. Uh yes I can imagine another question that comes to mind is the nonverbal communication and how prevalent that is how it happens all the time but we are not most of us don't pay attention to it or maybe we do at a subconscious level do you um were you in touch with your intuition all during that experience I'm wonder if you have a a story to tell about intuitive thinking and kind of nonverbal communication sensing something before it happened.

[00:42:37]>> I'm sure I did. Um Um Well, there were rocks coming through um when they were throwing rocks at me at night, the next day. I mean, the next day, not that night.

[00:42:52]>> Yeah.

[00:42:53]And I left the hut and went into the went into about a half mile away was a canopy of real tall trees and it was dark in there because the leaves of the tree were very wide and they shut out the sun.

[00:43:11]>> And when they started throwing rocks from a distance, >> Yeah. the person who was with me um looked at me and I I sort of looked at him and was wondering what why and because they were shooting them in and they could hit him too, >> right?

[00:43:30]>> So, uh he took off.

[00:43:33]>> Of course, >> he left. He went back with them.

[00:43:36]>> Yeah.

[00:43:38]>> So, that's a good Yeah, that's a good example of that. Very good example of that. invisible kind of sensing of what's around us.

[00:43:47]>> So the next uh question here, oh gosh, I have so many of them. What was your first emotional and psychological reaction upon arriving in New Guinea?

[00:43:57]And also the book describes New Guinea as a place where time Oh, a place where time forgot. That's a nice thing to put it.

[00:44:07]>> What did that feel like in reality? So what was your emotional psychological kind of assessment of nine and then also this where a place where where time forgot that's an interesting way of um of putting that I never thought that way yes >> of course I I realized that they did have a high level of emotional transmission from their dancing from their from their uh chanting >> yes >> their chanting affects me even now. So because >> when I run laps on the last three laps I do chance.

[00:44:47]>> Oh wow. Yeah.

[00:44:49]>> But um >> the uh >> okay so that was that was the emotional part and then >> what was the last part of that question?

[00:45:04]Oh yes. About these u the book describes New Guinea as a place where time forgot.

[00:45:10]>> Time forot.

[00:45:11]>> Yeah.

[00:45:11]>> And that was that was a a a common term given to them by an anthropologist in the 1960s.

[00:45:22]And I I think that in a way it describes what you would see if you would go there and and take a look at those people who appeared even though they were in the same living in the same time zone that we were the time era that we were.

[00:45:47]>> Yeah.

[00:45:48]They uh still had um they had identification of their of their apparel and they had uh some of them had weapons, some of them would use tools that were outdated and so it was sort of slow. But then in the 1940s they introduced um tractors and uh they they they brought those tractors in in the Seek River area and they cut down trees a lot faster than their their machetes cut down trees. So they were impressed by that.

[00:46:42]And uh so it was uh took a while for the new things to come in, but when they did get in, they were welcomed because they were it was a lot easier to level out areas uh that previously would take a long time using the machetes.

[00:47:05]>> Yeah.

[00:47:06]Yes. It's so true. Um I'm wonder do you have any I mean you probably I never I never look at these um how these civilizations now how do they exist how they are kind of um if they still holding on to the same traditions is that something that you informed as of now does this still exist the head hunting the tribe uh tribal warfare it's still happening?

[00:47:34]>> Yes. Um, there just might be some of that still going on. I referred to that in in the novel that it might be and it might not be if anything because um it has certainly decreased and it's it's just not the thing to do really.

[00:48:00]>> Right.

[00:48:01]And so um that's an interesting question though. I I think I came across the place places where they are still doing that headhunting. And you know it also is it also comes from warfare. When tribal war >> breaks out, which it still does very infrequently, then there's the opportunity to take a fallen warrior.

[00:48:35]>> Yeah. who is killed and keep him and cut his head off, of course, and put it in your u ancestral >> uh on the ancestral pole >> and and keep those things for uh rewards.

[00:48:55]>> Wow. It's so hard to um it's a challenge for me to even imagine these things. Um but when I try it kind of uh h it feels so primitive it feels so nonspiritual but um like a type of human that is connected to thema I don't know if you have heard those terms before the animus so they are different kinds of kind of entities that live within us that drive the driving forces for the way we express ourselves in life in this existence. This which we call life. We don't even I don't know what this is.

[00:49:36]It's kind of an interesting experience.

[00:49:38]Very very fascinating experience to be here. But um yeah, it feels to me like the young explains the thema being those humans connected to the earth and connected to everything that seems solid and and real to them in the sense of survival again and fear-based. And then the animma is more connected with something that would be called the spirit or the soul or god and then where we are a lot lighter like when I see you expressing yourself as a writer storyteller the way you do and then poetry and and it just feels very much like you in touch with the enemas now it's that oh >> the spiritual evolved human.

[00:50:23]Yeah, that's what it comes to me. And then with this next question, I go back to this kind of idea of also reincarnation in past lives. So it says here, you mentioned that the line between observer and participant quickly disappeared. Can you share a moment when you truly felt immersed?

[00:50:46]So with that in mind, uh also I wanted to add uh have you thought about the possibility just the possibility that you have lived this type of life before that you're part of of tribes like that before and that's the reason why you're drawn to visit New Guinea.

[00:51:06]>> Oh interesting too.

[00:51:09]Um, no I I can't say I have.

[00:51:16]>> Yes.

[00:51:17]>> But um what was the first part of that question?

[00:51:21]>> Um about the the line between the observer and the participant that >> yes, we got that.

[00:51:28]>> Yeah, >> that is um that happened when I felt very good when I shared my my food with them. Of course, I didn't have much food after that. I didn't have any food, but I shared the food with with the adults and the children, and I I felt very uh sort of like very at ease. In fact, that night when they went to bed, when the when the men went on their c, >> the little children came to me >> and a couple of them jumped in my sleeping bag and the others took some blankets that I had. So what they did do though, they put pig grease on their chest because they don't light a fire in the hut at night and temperature gets to be around 40°.

[00:52:24]>> Oh >> yes. So, um, >> so that's an experience that was very, um, immersive that they >> Yeah, that was a that was a sort of like a boy, I'll probably be able to sleep pretty good even though the kids inside of a of a sleeping bag with me.

[00:52:47]>> Yes, >> it looks like everything's going to go all right. But I didn't even think about that. M >> I didn't think about the night and the intimidation that it would create. I didn't think about that.

[00:53:00]>> Yes. So from that moment was really um uh being in the moment and that's something that I always usually go go back to be here now in this moment. How does it feel and then kind of almost belonging to this present moment embodying it uh living it fully.

[00:53:17]>> Oh yes. That's when I felt more natural.

[00:53:21]M yes Lawrence natural that's the word yeah that's ex that captures yada natural just being here >> huh and you he never contemplated the idea of past life um past lives of or kind of reincarnation have you you never thought about that did you uh >> yeah I I wonder how prevalent It is in in the New Guinea cultures.

[00:53:55]>> Yes. Um >> Oh, it's it's very important for past uh relatives and their spirits that they pass on. That's important.

[00:54:06]And of course, it used to be uh that's how you got the the uh the meat from your dead relative into your system by by eating a dead part and >> oh >> becoming um spiritualized by that.

[00:54:27]>> Wow. That's cannibalism they call it.

[00:54:30]There's a term for cannibalism.

[00:54:31]Canibism.

[00:54:32]>> Yeah.

[00:54:32]>> Oh my god. It feels like so. Um, again, it's almost like on it's almost like a movie. You're watching a movie. That's what it feels like. And that's another thing. Um, it's it's I mean, it's everything about the story kind of uh inspires me to think about a movie.

[00:54:54]>> So, is that something that you have been contemplating to write in a screenplay?

[00:54:59]>> Well, u there's there's some u personnel at the publishing office that are really big about this and getting a documentary together or just a historical movie together because um >> the film strips that I have are pretty rare by now and there aren't that many uh I guess opportunities to take that kind of uh art and >> and camera work like it used to be. In fact, Michael Rockefeller might be the only one who has made a a regular lengthy movie called Dead Birds.

[00:55:46]>> And he he made that movie. I never saw it, but it's well known.

[00:55:52]>> And >> there isn't too much movie wise relating to New Guinea that I know of.

[00:56:01]So yeah, um perhaps for that reason alone might be a a great opportunity of very I mean to me that it really really um resonates that way um your story.

[00:56:14]Yeah, that could become a movie and then we can start with the documentary the trailer and then present that to filmmakers. That would be a wonderful thing to do. So, we don't have a lot of time left and I wish I could go through there are so many other questions here and so many many many other questions that I could ask you that I would love to ask you and please come back at some point. I would love for you to come back. Usually we don't h we have to keep it very in a sense um spotty in a very uh fragmented and not going to the whole story for the time it would be two a two hour maybe perhaps three hour conversation but because of the time 45 minutes recording I apologize uh Lawrence for the >> that's okay >> so for that but please please please come back I want to end with the last question here guided question and I Want to mention the website too. So you can find your book on Amazon also.

[00:57:13]Bestsellerslc.com is available on your website. Yeah. And Amazon too.

[00:57:20]>> Yes.

[00:57:20]>> And I know you would like to read I would love for you to read one of your poems. Yes. Yes. But before that this question here looking back what did this journey teach you about humanity and how did you change as a person?

[00:57:38]Well, um I was I was impressed by the way in which they trusted a person who wasn't even invited um and who >> came into their realm.

[00:57:54]>> Yeah.

[00:57:55]>> And allowed uh allowed allowed me to stay for a while. And um that was that was a nice feeling to be included inclusive type uh greeting.

[00:58:09]>> Yeah. Um the way that the children were were um hanging on to the adults, >> the young children and the males apparently was a um uh hunting camp.

[00:58:36]they were um they were allowed to go on with the parents to this activity wherever it was or whatever they were doing. They were probably learn in a learning situation and that fathers were teaching the children how to do something their way.

[00:58:57]>> Yeah.

[00:58:58]But uh it was nice to see the uh family together like that. I didn't see the females, but I don't know uh what happened to them, where they were or where their village was because this was an isolated um camping site with about seven huts around it. Seven straw huts around it, >> right?

[00:59:24]>> Surrounded in a circle.

[00:59:27]and they're >> they didn't seem to be aggressive either when I brought my I didn't have too much for them to really go through. I didn't have any weapons, didn't have a computer, didn't have a telephone, right?

[00:59:53]>> No kind of contact.

[00:59:57]But they um they didn't tamper with with my camera or my tape recorder.

[01:00:09]>> And I was surprised. I thought they would.

[01:00:12]>> And so I was happy for that.

[01:00:19]>> It's all I can say.

[01:00:21]>> Yeah. What a that's a a beautiful and powerful message of inclusion, right?

[01:00:26]How some >> we humans can even though even those let's say we call primitive kind of um cultures they still hold that invitation of the new of something new as sacred. So they didn't try to kind of eliminate right you just because you're different >> but they welcome. That's beautiful.

[01:00:52]Yeah.

[01:00:52]>> That was a good good sign of respect, wasn't it?

[01:00:55]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's really a huge lesson for us, right? Considered modern human beings right now, especially now.

[01:01:06]>> So, um I would love for you to read one of your poems too, Lawrence.

[01:01:09]>> Okay.

[01:01:10]>> Please. So, uh, I can have you select >> the wob wobble versus feather. It's about an arrow.

[01:01:25]>> Yeah.

[01:01:27]>> Um, papaya passion, cantaloupe mediates change, and the magic ror.

[01:01:38]>> Oh, wow. So you have um I'll I'll rather you choose them randomly in a sense of intuitively.

[01:01:46]>> It's maybe you can just close your eyes and touch some touch one of them if they have different pages and then let them kind of call itself. And >> I thought you would go for that passionate u um story of where did it go?

[01:02:09]Papaya.

[01:02:10]>> Papaya.

[01:02:11]>> I do like that though. Yeah. Yes, >> I do too.

[01:02:14]>> Yes, please.

[01:02:16]>> The tenderness of papaya, such a succulent fruit. You cut it into it deeply from orange to red and get a sugary delightful taste, >> not of a melon, but of a dessert instead. M >> its drawbacks are its many round black seeds.

[01:02:39]>> However, found in the middle >> Uhhuh.

[01:02:43]>> with a spoon can be flipped out with ease.

[01:02:48]It is a prolific plant, you see, and could produce a lasting drink for any he or she or a lung build birdie. And thus it is appropriately named the passion fruit and becomes dear to our liking.

[01:03:05]Connects to romance and remains astute >> especially for regularity. It offers a special elderly toot.

[01:03:15]>> That too. Yes. Uh what a lovely poem. Um yeah kind of bringing this metaphor of papaya to life itself. the aliveness, right, of being human again, uh, female embodying the the female qualities or the male qualities. But I love how you kind of using the fruit to kind of show how life can be very surprising, fascinating, beautiful, tasty. It's it's so possible, but it's it takes curiosity. It takes taking the the sweetness with the bitter too, right?

[01:03:49]With the right, not just one thing.

[01:03:52]>> Yeah. Thank you so much for your beautiful, beautiful presence here today, >> for sharing your story, your book, and I really, really would love to have you back to to continue the conversation because there's so many questions I didn't ask.

[01:04:06]>> Okay.

[01:04:06]>> And and I would love to see your book, this story out there in a movie form. It really really >> Yeah, it comes this way. That's what I see. It's very visual. It's very, very visual and and emotional, too. Yeah. I could feel my body.

[01:04:20]>> Thank you.

[01:04:21]>> Thank you. Thank you.

[01:04:22]>> So, thank you so much for your u your kindness and your amiiable approach.

[01:04:31]>> Ah, yes. I love doing that. I love doing this. That's my my favorite thing to do, have these conversations. So, thank you so much for saying yes, for being here, and we'll be in touch again. Bye for now. You're >> welcome. Thanks again, Valerie. God bless you. Aloha. Mahalo. We'll talk soon. Bye for now, Morris. Aloha.