Abortion Recriminalization: Does Life Begin at Conception? The Role of Men | Science vs. The Law

Ajouté : 2026-05-03

[00:00:02]like this.

[00:00:07]That is how the trumpet will sound.

[00:00:10]>> We are not favored. So, >> how >> you know if you look at it logically, men get sex that they are given.

[00:00:20]>> The custodian of sex is a woman.

[00:00:22]>> Yes.

[00:00:23]>> If a woman does not want to have sex, unless which is against society, you'll be punished. there's no sex. So in other words, men can only get sex that they have been given. And for that reason, men go around testing any sex that they can get. So the person who controls sex is a woman.

[00:00:42]>> This is men. We are seated down as men.

[00:00:44]And we are discussing what women should do.

[00:00:47]>> But don't you feel like should have >> should have the right? Yeah. Cuz you know how many deadbe men are out here?

[00:00:54]There are many. So the only person who's normally in quotes guaranteed to be in a kid's life to a certain level by nature up to maybe 95% the woman >> a man we are there by choice >> face the consequence of their action that's what now on the other hand you can't have a situation where when since you're you're defending uh you're playing nin on the on the opposition to this side.

[00:01:22]>> Yes. Imagine a situation where a man has given a lady both >> then the man says I don't want that child you should abote >> but the lady decides that she doesn't want to abote >> yes >> and then she gives birth should this man be forced to be in the life of that episode 655.

[00:01:56]Like, subscribe, hit the notification button, tell a friend to tell a friend.

[00:02:00]a friend of the show Georgeesa who is an author and an activist and a lecturer and of course this is the second time and something which is a little bit controversial ruling abortion in Kenya. Yes, >> correct. And uh so can you just maybe brief people on the ruling and what it means?

[00:02:33]>> All right.

[00:02:35]First I think the constitution of Kenya >> has a position on the issue of abortion.

[00:02:40]>> Yes sir.

[00:02:41]>> It's very clear according to the constitution of Kenya that life begins at conception.

[00:02:46]>> Yes.

[00:02:47]>> But also in article 43 there's a provision for reproductive health.

[00:02:51]>> Okay. which activists on the especially in the women agenda have been pushing for that reproductive health rights to include abortion abortion rights.

[00:03:02]>> Okay.

[00:03:03]>> And so we had a court case that had been going on for a while that got a ruling recently.

[00:03:10]>> The court case in the lower court had ruled that it's permissible >> or rather the reproductive health rights include uh abortion.

[00:03:20]>> Yes. But then the high court over the court of appeal overturned that ruling >> and so we are back to the status of uh what the constitution says >> that >> uh life begins at conception >> and which means in that sense by that definition >> it means that immediately after conception >> yes >> one is granted the moral right to life.

[00:03:46]>> Okay.

[00:03:46]>> And therefore you are granted human rights.

[00:03:49]>> Yes. and one of the human rights since it's right to life. Right to life is the most important human right which is protected by the constitution of Kenya under the bill of rights.

[00:03:59]>> So uh right to life is really important because without right to life other rights don't have value.

[00:04:06]>> So you right to life guarantees you right to expression, right to movement, right to healthcare. So without right to life then you don't have any other right. For that reason, according to the constitution of Kenya, it's important to protect to protect the right to life.

[00:04:24]But then the most controversial question then is >> when does life begin? And I think that's where uh we have a dilemma. There are people who thinks life begins at conception. That's according to the constitution. There are people who thinks that life begins sometime much later. Maybe after 2 weeks, maybe after 3 months, maybe after birth.

[00:04:43]>> Yes. Yes. And so for that reason the rights would begin where right of life begins. So if for example if you believe right right your rights to life begins after birth >> then your human rights also starts after birth.

[00:04:56]>> Yes.

[00:04:57]>> But if you begin if it begins 6 months after conception then your rights begins at that point. If it begins at 3 months then your rights begins at that point.

[00:05:06]>> If it begins at conception >> then your rights begin there. Now what is this conception? Conception is the time t0 if you do calculus >> where >> tending to zero the egg and sperm meet >> yes >> and that that moment is what's the that time t0 that's the time for conception >> and since life human life is developmental we go through different stages >> so we have you could see it that from conception then you become >> a fetus then from a fetus you develop all the way to to bath time you become a baby. Then a baby you become an infant.

[00:05:45]An infant becomes a child. A child will grow into a teenage. A teenage will grow into an adult. An adult to become an old person. And then within that developmental stage life either through the act of God you exit.

[00:06:01]>> Yes.

[00:06:02]>> Or something else happens to you and then you exit. So now the question is does anyone have a right to interfere with the development of human life from conception to when you exit either as an old person or something else happens to you. It turns out as human beings we do not want that.

[00:06:24]>> We do not want a situation where >> I have power over your life. I can take it away. But now if right now me and you here >> if I took away your life, society will come very strongly on me. The reason is that we we value life, we have to protect it.

[00:06:41]>> Yes.

[00:06:42]>> Now how about that life that is at it weakest stage >> and so the fetus is considered to be at weakest stage. Should we protect it or not?

[00:06:51]>> Some people think that because it has not joined society, >> it should not be protected by society.

[00:06:57]>> Yes. But we should also ask ourself what does it mean to join society. When um if you look at uh what is it that makes that fit us not to have joined society.

[00:07:10]when we look at the human life uh in terms of our connection especially like us Africans who think that uh life we we we believe that even the the ones who are dead still belong to life like us then the ones who are not yet born would also still belong to life just like us we have connection so society has a responsibility to defend the defenseless and we defenseless are children elderly disabled and in that category we must put in unborn And >> so for that reason you can see how we have a dilemma. We have a controversy and we have different groups pushing different direction. Uh those who are in the women agenda, women human rights, women u feminism uh would want that abortion is included in the reproductive health rights. But that has to be resisted. Like personally I resist that position because I think >> that as a society we can't be a society that encourages taking away of life for reasons of pleasure or leisure.

[00:08:14]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:08:19]Joined by two abortion experts.

[00:08:22]>> Yes. Thank you so much.

[00:08:25]Wombs are crying.

[00:08:29]Love begins at what experts abote missionran government what missions to abote after mission.

[00:09:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. So life according to me life begins >> for me life starts at um conception.

[00:09:12]>> Yeah. Conception.

[00:09:14]You understand the concept of conception?

[00:09:16]>> The concept of conception. See the cell whatever like >> fertilization.

[00:09:22]>> Fertilization. Yes. Of course. Yes.

[00:09:25]Okay.

[00:09:25]>> Because it's a living thing. Cells are living things at conception immediately.

[00:09:47]That's it. That's when life immediately that's for me believe abortion like should a woman be able to abort?

[00:10:03]>> Yes. She she she >> Yeah. Even >> if she feels like um it's going to maybe take a toll on her.

[00:10:17]It's she did not planned it. Maybe she didn't like the person.

[00:10:22]>> She liked the person.

[00:10:30]So I think it's our bodies do not change.

[00:10:41]number message delivered to the recipient but madame like you change so maybe a promising job which does not allow so there's a lot of things come into play forceian Okay.

[00:11:14]Okay.

[00:11:20]Under extraneous circumstances >> under extreme circumstances only >> because um medical >> maybe advice this one.

[00:11:37]>> Yes.

[00:11:40]handle maybe how it came about only one thing probably come into that later >> but to me I believe once we engage in in any sexual activity to bear that responsibility for aesthetic reasons like country like the US but for the sake >> feel I think what we see from and robos position >> one electro to agree that abortion is terminating an existing life >> yes >> so we have what's in question there is life is right and u there uh two types of abortion.

[00:12:40]>> Mhm.

[00:12:41]>> Um there's one where it happens spontaneously.

[00:12:45]>> Mhm.

[00:12:46]>> Yes. Normally it's called miscarriage.

[00:12:48]You have no control.

[00:12:49]>> Yes.

[00:12:49]>> Then we have induced where you induce the process of of abortion to happen.

[00:12:55]>> Under that we have two. We have the one that's legal and the one that's illegal.

[00:13:00]>> The legal one is called therapeutic. I think that's what Brabo was describing.

[00:13:05]>> Yes. your when the mother's health is in danger >> or when they realize when you realize that the fetus has is completely deformed >> that and even his survival in the womb is a danger to the mother >> or the mother is psychologically not able to handle the body is not able to handle that's called therapeutic you can walk into kinata hospital it will be treated the same as if you have a headache >> you just discuss with the doctor >> yes >> so when we debate the issue of abort abortion, >> therapeutic abortion is not in the question whether and that also includes rape and incest.

[00:13:41]>> Yes.

[00:13:42]>> So once you remove that, we are left with what's called illegal abortion.

[00:13:46]Illegal abortion is what's considered in Kenya criminal abortion. And why is it criminal? It's for the reasons uh that Robo has just mentioned. You're doing it for aesthetic reason. Technically, it's called soio economic reason.

[00:13:58]>> You have uh economic reason is poverty.

[00:14:01]And as u Ian was talking about, you're not ready uh for the consequences of your sex. So normally it's e economic social reasons also vary as he had said maybe >> you have a vacation coming up and this baby is interfering.

[00:14:18]>> You have other plans.

[00:14:19]>> Yeah.

[00:14:20]>> Career your career you it's when you're just setting out in career and that's that's there's an interference. There's also families that want to space.

[00:14:29]>> You you are planning not to have a baby in the next year, but now you have a oops baby, >> right? That's alo spacing sex selection where so for that reason you can eliminate.

[00:14:44]>> Then there's uh issues like social like infidelity. You're married but you're playing away matches in a goal scor.

[00:14:52]>> So then you need to get rid of evidence.

[00:14:54]The other reasons are religious. You sing in the choir, people think that the only thing that exists you is Holy Spirit, but you also have other things that excite you. And that becomes becomes a problem.

[00:15:07]>> Peer pressure.

[00:15:10]You you see yourself among your peers.

[00:15:13]Maybe you decide you because of peer pressure, you don't want your self-esteem to be lowered before your friends. you decide to so you can see those are called soio economic reason >> so I think the question that we have is a society because every time we have like this discussion we are trying to influence 55 million people >> we are trying to set standards we are trying to said set rules and morals for the society >> are the reasons that we have just mentioned justified enough to be for taking away life >> if we say yes then let's assume poverty we've made. So the reason why you're getting rid of a pregnancy or you're killing this life is because of poverty which is economics. Then what you are what you're involved in is poverty reduction, >> right?

[00:16:07]>> So then since we have many poor people around here, we have a lot of a lot of our slums are full of poor people. So we could use even killing them as part of poverty reduction because you can see how how that consequently it moves to that direction because I mean if if if we can do it so for example more here is how we should look at it in Kenya at least as according to statistics of 2004 which I think now has gone up we had u 300,000 abortions every year >> Kenya >> in Kenya >> 300,000 abortions every year.

[00:16:45]>> Now if you can imagine if you're killing 300 lives, how many 300s do we need to eliminate in the slums? And then we only the Kenya remains with the rich people.

[00:16:55]>> You can see where and now the thing is also is the question of life. Is life sacred or life is not sacred?

[00:17:02]>> But I think you I think the biggest debate upon you where does life begin?

[00:17:07]If life begins at conception when the egg is fertilized on >> I feel like life at least fetus now we're talking about life >> anything before fetus is it actually life you know like especially if especially if like doing it for poverty reasons there's no need also for a parent who's not ready in any way financially could bring a life onto the earth mentally ready for it like this thing that has started with kids suing their parents foroverty a certain video that was somehow disturbing it's two dwarfs >> and apart from disabled What they do? They do this on camera and you see that kid is there also looking all and like is it right for them to do that? This kid did not choose this. So brought into this life.

[00:18:30]So how do we say that life this concept of life begins at at conception. It's more of a moral issue than anything. I know science backs it but it's more moral than anything.

[00:18:51]This is a full adult. This is a full adult >> for you. For you it starts at what age?

[00:18:57]>> At least fetus always starts from the fetus zourney.

[00:19:10]Yeah. What is it that's not there in that in a fetus?

[00:19:16]>> You can't say conception but more effect.

[00:19:20]>> Don't forget and I think probably have the stats at what >> not age at what time do most abortions are procured? I think we'll come to that. But in the meantime, time is the factor. At what time is it?

[00:19:41]What's the magic? What's the magic?

[00:19:44]Yeah. After 5 days, what's the magic?

[00:19:45]After one week, what's the magic? After one month, what's the also some open for freedom? So that anyone I think why your point is why your point is important. Uh according to the debate on um abortion there are three three groups there's one group called liberalist >> they think that abortion will happen any time including the ninth month >> right >> there was unsatisfied with the gender >> Yes election but you have to like 30 weeks >> yesh So in China that's the reason why China the >> sex election then so there's that group that feels like any time including 9 months >> the liberals >> the the liberals then there's a completely an opposite group that believes life begins at conception and therefore abortion should not happen or killing of that fet should not happen >> except when the mother's health is in danger. Mhm.

[00:20:56]>> Then there's a school of thought in between called the moderate >> who say let's look at the reasons and the time >> now most of the people try to be in that moderate space where they say time like Maf is arguing for time is a moderate >> and then he wants also the reasons you see now the moderate now the question is >> which time is acceptable and what's the magical what's magical about that time now if you go to reasons >> the reasons are the ones we've just listened here and which Robo has called aesthetic reasons.

[00:21:28]>> They are reasons just how how you feel >> or how society feels.

[00:21:34]>> But you see if we reduce human beings their life to depend on how I feel or society feels then it it makes it easier to take away people's life >> very easily because they we've set a principle where life is not sacred anymore. We can just take away life as long as we have good enough good reasons.

[00:21:52]>> Mhm. But on the other hand, if you say life is sacred, if we take away life, the three of us here, society will come on us with heavy hands.

[00:22:02]>> And that's just on the principle that life is sacred. And it doesn't matter whether it's a life of Chora >> or of the president. It has to be but you've given a very statement's life >> and if it matters if he's life's life feelings.

[00:22:38]I felt too hard now to explain cuz we cannot not everything feelings matter.

[00:22:48]>> Yes. But in the society a lot depend on your feelings that you have constitutions that we have rules and regulations but is interrupt but full of [ __ ] Why?

[00:23:12]Life begins at this. Life begins at this. Cuz for us, it does very little damage. The the most damage it does to us financially. For a woman, it women die while giving birth. That's always a risk that every time there's always a probability that she might not make it on the other side.

[00:23:31]Yes.

[00:23:34]>> What if I conception? I think at that point I think 8 weeks before before sex. That's the time. Just before sexuring during sex to abortion, the one who poured his seed on the floor that interrupters in terms of abortion top interrupters hands.

[00:24:39]So yes, according to Bible interrup stoned that men have to be responsible. Our responsibilities sex is sweet.

[00:24:51]>> Yes, that's true.

[00:24:56]for both different religions have different interpretation has to be man and wife any adultery any sex before marriage it's not allowed But we can work on things that human baseline is using protection.

[00:25:36]The five friends but you can use the sweetness will still be there. Very very sweet.

[00:25:52]Compare honey glazed pork now what boiled pork pork boiled pork the sweetness but but that that's one layer of protection >> then the second is the withdrawal method but is it only works for the first Exactly.

[00:26:28]Yeah, goals for I I get I get about maybe you cannot have to if you're not mentally there >> also I think they are a lot of maybe first time first timers >> young ladies young mothers They think they think about delivery >> but they are not prepared about the body changes depression even before that challenges even before M this is not >> maybe what I wanted.

[00:27:32]>> Yeah. But you see life has a lot of regrets for meeks.

[00:27:41]12 weeks.

[00:27:54]I think Yeah, I'm okay.

[00:27:58]>> But what's your reason? Why what's your reason? If if you believe life begins at conception, >> that's already life.

[00:28:04]>> So is it >> is it is it that once life has has no does not look the way you appreciate it, then it's no longer life >> because what you're saying is if it's Yeah. If it's there's a stage maybe I can I can be challenged scientifically.

[00:28:25]Of course, they start kicking now. That's for me. You cannot just wait all that long.

[00:28:47]Oh [ __ ] It's time for you to exit. Cuz for me, I think you've that's a longer period. Maybe that's those are 6 months.

[00:28:56]>> So you and >> I think you have 6 months.

[00:28:59]>> What do you make is life sacred or not?

[00:29:02]What and what makes it sacred?

[00:29:05]>> Maybe after birth.

[00:29:06]>> No. What what what is it after birth that makes it sacred now?

[00:29:10]>> Cuz now you're given a chance to be >> right now.

[00:29:18]>> Yeah.

[00:29:18]>> I don't have any reasons to >> No. Let's say there's a reason.

[00:29:22]>> Because I I >> Why wouldn't you not care? Cuz I respect life.

[00:29:25]>> Why do you respect life?

[00:29:26]>> And and and your way of living does not infringe mine if you're a bad person.

[00:29:31]>> No. Let's say let's say I've infringed your life.

[00:29:33]>> We can coexist.

[00:29:34]>> Why wouldn't you want to kill me? What what would stop you?

[00:29:37]>> I think the human decency.

[00:29:39]>> What's the decency based on what?

[00:29:42]>> Um I just think I think is also the Korean debate >> in Korea. Everyone who's in this uh room is older by 9 months birthday month you already have a 9 months but now that's where you the human >> so I think Like I understand the moral stance but the only thing I feel like the fact that we are talking about something that does not involve our bodies.

[00:30:29]>> But you see we in terms of society.

[00:30:31]>> Yes. No. Come here. Like we can look at that society and look at the moral issue but the fact that look at all these body changes that women go through and look at the fact that this can this is a life and death process. This is something that a woman should be ready mentally.

[00:30:52]Women are like women where the testicles explode and they they die.

[00:31:04]>> There are some animals there that die the male dies that every time like one out of 100 times are dead your testicles would explode. one out of 100.

[00:31:17]How many of us would still have sex if one there was a 1% chance that when you're having sex is a random day your testicles can explode. Do you know the human population would be super low?

[00:31:27]>> Thank you. That's a very very good observation. And that means women know all this you are saying about pregnancies. That's why they are taken through all that. Not only them but men.

[00:32:10]But in other jurisdictions in a way that we are not favored. So >> how >> you know uh if you look at it logically men get sex that they are given >> the custodian of sex is a woman.

[00:32:42]>> Yes.

[00:32:42]>> If a woman does not want to have sex unless which is against society will be punished. There's no sex. So in other words men can only get sex that they have been given. And for that reason men go around testing any sex that they can get. So the person who controls sex is a woman.

[00:33:01]>> So in that when you when you have such responsibility that that kind of right to control sex it comes with the responsibility of managing that sex.

[00:33:11]>> Uh another way to look at it there are many men who will die without having ever had sex. But there's no woman, there's no woman walking on earth who really really wants to have sex and they are willing to have sex with anyone and there's no one. But there are men who are willing to have sex with anyone but they will never get.

[00:33:33]>> So with that kind of favor from nature that women enjoy, >> they have the responsibility and since we already know we are we are we are rational animals. Rational animals means that we we think and we are able to know. In 2026, all of us we know what sex is for. In nature, all animals have sex only for reproduction. The only animal that have sex for entertainment is a human being. And that's our only dolphins. Uh dolphins go for >> But I know I know what you mean.

[00:34:04]Dolphins I think and some bonobo.

[00:34:07]>> Bonobo monkeys. Yes, monkey.

[00:34:08]>> You even have even for entertainment.

[00:34:12]Talking about animals, the the one that pops during sex in it, it's a male honeybee.

[00:34:17]>> The male honey.

[00:34:18]>> The ejaculation is so powerful. It often it's it's often described as an explosion.

[00:34:23]>> Yeah. So sometimes make an audible popping sound.

[00:34:27]>> So you see even if men if men actually their testes could explode.

[00:34:31]>> It's the same thing like women when they go to labor it's very painful >> but they get baby one and they get all the way to baby six. So same thing even if men's testicle were exploding as long as millions and millions of men were being born every man would be queuing just to go have their uh day at the testicle explosion. I don't see that there will be that would stop men population if we had the same brain our population would go down the same >> the if the sexual age is still the same then we still for for text >> see right now look at it this this way our sexual high but we look at the consequences like uh if I have sex with this person number one is a disease Number two, one over 100 human population. We'd actually go extinct. People think we not go extinct. We'd go extinct. Look at societies that are very advanced and the way finance has affected child birth.

[00:35:45]Japan, a South Korea, if you go to Europe, look at how uh economy, technology has affected child birth in those countries. Japan, it's disappearing so fast that they literally being the one child right now have two kids. But the more financially empowered a woman is, the one who controls sexed she is, the more she does not want kids.

[00:36:12]So we have doesn't want kids, but she wants we being extreme cuz we don't even need to explode.

[00:36:24]You're entitled to half the pain during labor.

[00:36:32]And how come how come women do it and still do it again?

[00:36:38]>> It's a natural evolutionary 400 years of evolution. 400,000 400 400,000 years of evolution >> and mark anymore based on that logic even men would have evolved just to be ready for the testicle explosion. Yes.

[00:36:52]And what what I know is we would not be 8 billion people on earth. That one you can know they would not be 8 billion people on earth still come to extinction. Panda bears panda why pandas going extinct and they know they're going extinct. Pani as much humans loving having sex for pleasure. I think it's because we evolved. We evolved so much that nature knew that if the only reason we going to have kids >> is uh the only reason we're going to have sex is for kids >> we'd go extinct.

[00:37:25]>> That that's I think that's that's >> that's why so there's people moving around there by that's why we have some entertainment aspect because if you remove if you remove entertainment then it's very possible to for humanity to go extinct. Yeah that's true. I think that's pleasure.

[00:37:59]that on your first transaction €100 cash back on your first transaction 100 cash backs.

[00:38:21]Kenya payments for everyone.

[00:38:48]Cuz so how >> do you see the pleasure >> has the right to have that pleasure has responsibility the techn is a technology for getting babies >> that's that's what it's what that's what it's supposed to solve >> it's for procreation notation >> so now since >> we have to ask ourself there are many stages before abortion Yeah, before you talk to that man and then you get to a place where you can have sex if if if you think the man is not the type you like, maybe you should have stopped at the point that you don't like that man, therefore there's no need of going for uh trials.

[00:39:32]>> Yeah.

[00:39:32]>> Because the moment you go for trials, you might qualify.

[00:39:35]>> Mhm.

[00:39:35]>> And when you qualify now, you can't blame the process. The process was already fixed in nature that anytime man and woman lie together in a way that they are trying out the technology of reproduction then it will happen but then so then we have also another thing that we have to deal with >> m >> Kenya Kenya is a country that claims to be 90 something% religious that is if you combine Christian and Muslims we're religious that has implication it means that we believe the we believe there's God and God is the giver of life.

[00:40:09]>> So if God is the give of life, the principle says God should be the one who takes away life. So as a Christian or a Muslim, when you take away life, what have you done to that law that says thou shalt not kill? Do you suspend it or do you do you do it and then you say God will understand? Especially if you see it from the point that you're doing it for aesthetic reason, just the reasons that is the way you feel and you see there are things there. You can feel hungry, but that doesn't mean you steal.

[00:40:37]George, I have a question. Yes.

[00:40:39]>> So, you let's say you have a kid. Yeah.

[00:40:41]>> You have a kid. Probably they are 2, three years old.

[00:40:44]>> Then you need to relocate to another city. Probably you're a single mother.

[00:40:48]>> Yeah.

[00:40:49]>> You know, or Okay, let me single father.

[00:40:51]Okay. And you need to relocate to another city.

[00:41:05]Do you kill the kid? Because do you kill maybe brain cancer?

[00:41:17]You don't have siblings or anything.

[00:41:25]At what point do we take riskings responsibilities to humanity?

[00:41:33]>> I think that's why the debate debate probably come back to at what point does life begin? I think that's people talking about real humans.

[00:41:40]>> No, no, no. But who's a real human?

[00:41:42]>> A real human is a real human being.

[00:41:46]At what point is he a real human? Human is in we are human beings. Human beings live in time and space.

[00:41:56]>> So one of our interpretation of reality is space.

[00:42:02]>> That's space.

[00:42:03]>> Then the other interpretation of reality is time.

[00:42:05]>> So time is really important. So we have to ask ourself at what time does life begin?

[00:42:12]>> And whatever we place that signpost that's where life begins. And we must have a reason for why we say that that's where life begins. And then from that knowledge we can construct our morality >> because morality is based on reality.

[00:42:28]So once we've said life begins here we draw the line then we say this and this cannot happen or if this and this happens then this is the punishment.

[00:42:38]>> So if we don't have a clear line then we let things be vague. If it depends on individual then 55 million of us have different feelings and so for that reason life becomes chaotic and society has to be organized. Society has to have order, harmony and peace.

[00:42:55]>> And for those three things to be realized we need to have a principle, a rule, a law that says this is permissible, this is not permissible, this is acceptable, this is unacceptable. Now we have to take I mean I know the challenge is that human beings we want to have recreational sex and it has consequence >> but we have to bite the bullet to decide where does life begin and we have to have a justification it can't be random it can't be just after 5 days it's just a blob a blob of what that blob has DNA the DNA in that remember that since you you studied chemistry at the atomic level that's where your DNA is and that's who you are. So once before you get to this macro figure at the micro level you are your DNA you are XY so which means that you have started that's your existence if if we were to have an accident here and they needed to divide us into four to know we'll have to look at the the DNA to establish >> so this blob you're talking about has a DNA a DNA of what of a human being if it if it has a DNA of a human being it's a human being >> then the question is how should we treat a human being But but then we can use that and say menstrual bloodn we can say the same thing about uh >> uh being on pouring the seed on the floor it still has DNA. You see that that's why when there was this debate about abortion liberals who started that argument they were like now since my life begins at conception >> then we need to say life begins at ejaculation.

[00:44:42]started saying that.

[00:44:42]>> Yeah. So like how far how far >> how far down should we go? So that then that's that that's that's we could say that's a point someone that's a good argument. But basically for the ladies we can see that they lose their egg every month.

[00:44:55]>> So but that's nature built it like that.

[00:44:59]>> All right.

[00:45:00]>> Even us releasing nature built it like that.

[00:45:03]>> Where we are involved uh is the fusion.

[00:45:07]In that fusion we already have knowledge that that's a technology. It's like bringing two together two wires positive and negative.

[00:45:14]>> We know very well that what's going to happen.

[00:45:17]>> Yeah. We are either completing a circuit light comes on or we going to create a charge that could blow us up.

[00:45:23]>> Now if we know that >> we can't connect the switch to need to put on light and still want to be in darkness. We know very well that for every sex whether every sex there's a possibility of pregnancy. So we should be ready for before and after. Maybe the best place to stop or to take charge to do according to your feelings is before sex. Decide on who you're having sex with. And if you think that person post sex, you still want to continue the consequence of sex.

[00:45:54]>> Uh decide. No one has no one ever died because they didn't have sex. We even have evidence. There are people like I said there are men who will be born and they will go to death at even 90 and they have never had sex. So no one died because they didn't have sex. So we shouldn't look like sex has trapped us like uh there's nothing we can do. There is something that we can do. And that thing possibly should be to take responsibility just before sex. Who are you choosing? What kind of behavior are you in? Uh behavior here could include or who are you hanging out for peer pressure? Which places are you in so that you don't find yourself in sex that you do not want. uh if you have someone if you think that you don't want evidence of having slept with this person tomorrow, maybe that's a warning enough that don't don't have that sex.

[00:46:42]But once you you can't enjoy that person's uh the person's game, but when they score, then you you're saying that you're embarrassed or you don't want that. Yeah, that's I think again is for us as human being uh too wishy-washy and we can't just rely on how we feel. We have to be to as human beings we have to be able to set some rules where we say this is but rules rules. M >> where does the female right come in like that's I think debate this whole thing we'll blame it on feminism >> but the debate has to be this is men we are seated down as men discussing what women should do >> but don't feel like women should have >> should have the right yeah cuz you know how many deadbeat men are out here there are many so the only person who's normally in quotes guaranteed to be in a kid's life to a certain level by nature up to maybe 95% woman >> a man we are there by choice >> I can just refuse and you have to go through the legal system which looks very simple oh I'll go through the legal system I'll sue I'll do not every woman has the financial power I could go through the legal system to force a man to be involved in a kid's life yes so I feel like with that and women but I think like this person whose life is changed forever like Even like feminists will say I'm misogynistic. Yes. They'll say when I say that sex for a man and a woman are very different. I can have sex with a woman and forget her.

[00:48:25]And even if she gets pregnant, if she does not tell me she's pregnant, I can move on with my life and never remember that I had sex with her. But a woman does not have that >> luxury. Yesik have unprotected sex and she gets pregnant.

[00:48:42]>> If she decides to abort, she'll always remember that she aborted. If she decides to keep that child, >> she'll So the encounter say another thing that's happening with the feminist movement is apart from right to abortion. They are talking about the right to have casual sex and not be judged.

[00:49:01]>> Yeah.

[00:49:01]>> But now when you tell them this is very different, the consequences super different. you you've brought up a very good point. Uh feminism pushes women to behave like men, especially in the area of sex and alcohol.

[00:49:14]>> It turns out that if you take up sex, a man can have sex, 6 seconds later after he showers, nothing happened. For a lady, if you have sex now, if 9 months later, there's evidence you had sex.

[00:49:28]Yes. And even after 9 months, there's evidence. For that reason, you cannot be a woman and behave like a man in the area of sex.

[00:49:36]>> So, and that just calls for since you are a rational human being who can think, you can't behave like a man, you have to be at least uh responsible because sex consequences for you are more weighty than than for the man. But so when feminism pushes that women can behave like man in terms of sex and behavior, that's just setting up women for uh trouble. And men don't mind it because when you when women behave like men in terms of having uh casual sex, who is the beneficiary? Men are very happy. Yeah.

[00:50:09]>> Because then now sex becomes cheap.

[00:50:11]>> So in that sense, there's no way casual sex is empowering for women. It's actually it makes sex easy for men and men are very happy. That's why we support it.

[00:50:22]>> In fact, we support it wholeheartedly.

[00:50:24]We are we are pro women. We every 100% we want women to to have it casual.

[00:50:30]>> Casual sex.

[00:50:31]>> Yes. We can just meet in the lift and we do it more women. Yeah. And also we want more men to be gay. Yes. so that they can but is talking about something and most of the time issues from a scientific perspective but Yromos women naturally by nature biology there are things feminists they need to realize they cannot get away from the way nature designed us and the way nature designed a man and a woman are different if you look at the animal kingdom which we can always refer to I say 98% of animals birds nin it's the female which takes care of the because they are built to take care of caring.

[00:51:32]Yeah. Forget noting. They have all the tools mental and physical that need to take care of a of a kid and that's why men are usually absent. But it does not negate >> men just provide protection and food >> and food.

[00:51:48]So it does not negate the fact that men are supposed to be there but there are men who are not there. And even if you look at the animal kingdom, think bears, leopards, tigers, solitary animals disappear. So we need to look at and you see if we don't have rules, if you don't have agreed rules, then you can't blame men.

[00:52:12]>> And if you if you can't blame men, then they can't be held morally responsible.

[00:52:16]So the idea of dead bit dies.

[00:52:19]>> But once you have a rule, then men are held responsible. The reason why we call them dead bit is because they are not present >> to face the consequence of their action.

[00:52:29]That's what now on the other hand you can't have a situation where >> when since you're you're defending uh you're playing nin on the on the opposition to this side.

[00:52:41]>> Yes.

[00:52:42]>> Imagine a situation where a man has given a lady uh a ball.

[00:52:48]>> Then the man says I don't want that child. You should abote. M >> but the lady decides that she doesn't want to abort.

[00:52:54]>> Yes.

[00:52:55]>> And then she gives birth. Should this man be forced to be in the life of that kid?

[00:53:01]>> No.

[00:53:01]>> On the other hand or no. On the other hand, when the woman uh decides that they want to have abortion whether the man wants that baby to be kept or not, it's feminism will say the woman has a right body autonomy to control their body. Do you see there? There's a symmetry on one side when the man says I don't want that baby aborted when the lady keeps the baby the society will hold the man responsible to be there but when the man says I do not want you to abort again we need they need to play on the other side where the woman can abort if she wants even when the man does not want >> so you can see there there's a symmetry and that's that asymmetry has to be addressed especially now if we Let's say the American way >> most of the time women the men support >> child support. So, abortion you are very liberalized where >> you can have an abortion.

[00:54:04]Will men have that say like So will a man be able to say now you find that that's very difficult?

[00:54:29]>> Yeah. And there is and if a man came let's say public to say people will start looking at that man like you're evil. Yeah.

[00:54:38]>> Are there legal grounds where a man can sue for a woman continuing with her pregnancy if they had decided >> Europe most >> in the US? No. At least in Kenya there's nothing like it was one of the most the funniest debates I've seen when last year abortion Trump this 2024 >> we can is a part of it >> to the issue of abortion President Trump you've often touted that you were able to kill Roie Wade last year you said that you were proud to be the most pro-life president in American history then last month you said that your administration ation would be great for women and their reproductive rights. In your home state of Florida, you surprised many uh with regard to your six week abortion ban because you initially had said that it was too short and you said quote, "I'm going to be voting that we need more than 6 weeks."

[00:55:33]But then the very next day, you reversed course and said you would vote to support the six week ban. Vice President Harris says that women shouldn't trust you on the issue of of abortion because you've changed your position so many times. Therefore, why should they trust you?

[00:55:48]>> Well, the reason I'm doing that vote is because the plan is, as you know, the vote is they have abortion in the ninth month. They even have, and you can look at the governor of West Virginia, the previous governor of West Virginia, not the current governor, is doing an excellent job, but the governor before he said, "The baby will be born and we will decide what to do with the baby."

[00:56:09]In other words, we'll execute the baby.

[00:56:13]>> Execute the baby.

[00:56:14]>> Execute the baby.

[00:56:25]We have to be careful.

[00:56:29]Men are the ones who are making the rules for them.

[00:56:32]>> Things together. Things happened before the way they happened. Blah blah blah.

[00:56:38]Everybody, the prophets were all male.

[00:56:41]Things happened. Say change. But everything that was said before is wrong. Imagine all of us.

[00:56:58]Exactly. So at what point?

[00:57:09]Exactly.

[00:57:12]Exactly.

[00:57:37]So yeah. So yeah. So for that reason we we cannot leave it open. You you can decide to put controls. You can decide when who and who for. You can only decide who forcul you can select before having sex. But I think for body autonomy you know that the women it's their body it's their choice.

[00:58:19]>> But you see society we've come long way.

[00:58:21]We in 2026 we think life has not always been like this.

[00:58:25]>> There was a time where we decided to share these roles and we we realize that naturally reproduction of life women play the greatest role.

[00:58:36]>> Yes. protection of life men play the greatest role because we are the security providers. So if you can go backwards before we get to 2026 when we lived in the villages when we uh security was not guaranteed like it is today men's main job was to provide security. Security means that you have put your life on the line.

[00:58:58]>> Your family will not die before you.

[00:59:00]That's the same as the risks that you carry for when you when you're going to give birth.

[00:59:05]uh also when a society got solid solidified only men >> are recruited to go to war leave alone these days where where uh I think we we've decided we can bring in the female but generally only men go to war and so since men go to war >> that's another way that society has put the life of men on the line the same way they they make decisions for the woman >> so you can think of it that >> there's a balance >> when it comes If Kenya goes to war today in this room, >> all of us will be pres pro prescribed and we have to go to war by law.

[00:59:41]>> But women, they are never required to go to war.

[00:59:45]>> And if the countries is overrun and taken over by the by the enemy, >> those people will just turn those women, our women into their new wives and they continue. So there's a way nature has already also decided for a man.

[00:59:59]>> The balance the there's a balance. So we shouldn't treat it that just because women give birth therefore they should decide on their body even on the male body. The male body is decided by society >> that you have to do the following and we are held accountable for that.

[01:00:16]>> Sometimes we might not do it but we are held accountable for that. The same way some women they supposed to give birth but sometimes they don't give a birth and also we hold them accountable to that. So nature is already balanced. So we shouldn't see it like women carry a burden that men do not have a commensate burden on the other side.

[01:00:33]>> Each each person looking at their role you can see that it's really tough looking at it.

[01:00:41]I know the mental issues and the mental issues at the beginning that's why >> doing visiting professionals different levels Don't forget womenffected You never know.

[01:01:35]First trimester.

[01:01:41]first then on your second trimester all of a sudden I don't want this pregnancy we need to have parameters we cannot leave everything rules and regulations are very important very extreme at different areas extreme in both ends why you need to die because of your tri because of your religion justify Why you need to die because of your policy why you just don't need to exist because they see you as a threat. But is it allowable?

[01:02:52]A long list you are not supposed to exist to me. It all goes back to conception.

[01:03:02]Like not conception where life begins weeks thing.

[01:03:09]>> 6 weeks to me is reasonable. Conception where it's 5 days after what would have happened at the six week days after you live.

[01:03:18]But 6 weeks what is it that has happened? Because remember has started forming at least there's something man after 6 weeks for you you're not supposed to abort I understand the 6 weeks one like people who are >> even six when we pick six weeks >> but for for mim me I'd go at least 8 weeks 2 months past 2 months that's when I feel it's it now depends what if is is it if the baby is a risk to the mother >> hyali >> like the baby has to go. So in that sense, Maf is a moderate. He's looking at time >> and and reasons.

[01:04:03]>> But I I think if you look at that, we are all moderate. We are all I I think none of us is extreme at either end cuz we also talking about reasons as to why.

[01:04:15]But for you to be at 2 months, you had to have started somewhere.

[01:04:22]Yeah.

[01:04:24]>> And you see the challenge with two weeks also >> is that when you look at it wise >> there's nothing that's now is there at 2 weeks. 2 weeks is 14 days.

[01:04:35]>> Yes. Right.

[01:04:36]>> That's there at 14th day that was not there at the 12th day.

[01:04:40]>> Do you see that?

[01:04:41]>> But then the same person will think if it's possible at 12 days at 14 days then it's also possible at 16 days. And then if it's supposed to before you know it going all the way to so so it becomes very difficult and especially remember we are making rules for everyone.

[01:05:01]>> We have to look at ourself with the power of this technology called podcast.

[01:05:06]>> Whatever we are talking about here there's a kid in Kiligoris who is listening to us and needs to make life decision. There's a kid who will listen to us in Australia and needs makes life decision. So when we need to give them a a principle where should we place the the flag and say this is the place do not >> so we have to tell the kid in kilor is that it's not these kids are listening right now they're listening >> don't go for the kill but life in itself >> cuz we talking about the physical changes are >> but we know everything is dangerous.

[01:05:47]Everything between Africas diseases I think because of >> depending maybe what we've not talked about is is it that abortion is foolproof any consequences consequence ming there's a lot of dangers >> because the process involves expulsion of something from the body and if you look at the the way the uterus the baby starts growing on the uterus so it's attached >> so for you to eliminate it you have actually to eliminate part of the uterus >> and that has an effect in future it will affect the the uterus now we know that it will heal it might I mean success rate is very high but also we have a percentage that we need to look at that is likely to be affected Since it's illegal in Kenya, most people do this thing from back al street clinics and it's done in an hygienic condition uh by not people who are not qualified and so the risks of bleeding to death is very high or even into unhealth. Uh some people use crude tools to try and procure and that can really injure your uterus.

[01:07:10]Starts daily nationally report that 48% of the total number of abortions is procured by women aged between 10 and you see using the terms women and talking about 10.

[01:07:25]>> Yeah.

[01:07:25]>> Understand? So now I think that's the first thing we have to come up with >> kids cuz they are kids. Yes. Anyone under 18, it should be their decision.

[01:07:35]Do they want to keep the baby or not?

[01:07:37]Cuz this a life-changing thing. And we have to look at who impregnated them. Is it another kid? Is it an adult? Cuz if it's an adult, that adult deserves jail.

[01:07:48]So I think if you go to this very extremist like countries, religious even kids as young as 10 have to keep the babies.

[01:08:00]Like even Afghanistan for example, a kid that's 10 years old has to keep the baby.

[01:08:05]>> Yeah.

[01:08:05]>> And that's when the society needs just be very uh very strict. Their rules should be very strict about having sex with underage >> and the punishment should remain severe >> and also parents needs to take responsibility of uh talking to their kids about uh what's happening especially once the child starts growing to start talking about what's happening to their body. Talk about sex. tell them sex is good but it has its consequences.

[01:08:31]uh they need to be aware >> but then >> if in eventually bad things happen then now I think a family because 10 year old anyone below 18 year old does not make any decision in the according to the law that one has to be made by the parents >> and how do they just come up with um what are the methods that they use to arrive at you know at 18 you cannot you are able to handle this and not 21 and 19 or 20 >> yeah I think they arrive when society Yeah, it's just an age that was because now in the US there are places where they push it to 16.

[01:09:08]>> Yeah. So for for example in the US you I think you take alcohol at 21 >> and even driving I think it's 21 but having sex has been pushed to 16. So you can see sex which has longterm decision on human life is sort of it has been played western Europe Europe is so weird cuz I remember watch a Netflix series >> and there was this bud 16y old and it's normal like >> and you see that's based on when people when the society feels that this is thing is a good thing >> so there's no so what you could say logic to what you're asking what's that now you can start having sex which was not there at 17 >> do you see that so if if you can if people putting on tattoos they can't do it before they turn 18 in in some of those developed countries but having sex they can do it much earlier you can see how now things are really upside down in >> I think drinking alcohol it's like 14 15 >> yeah you can see how things are really upside So for that reason I think every society needs to decide >> where they want to put. Do you feel like it should be a universal thing?

[01:10:28]>> Possibly. But now we have >> because we are humans, it doesn't mean that >> now your needs are special. These things are not going to affect you the same practical impractical cuz I think they ruled they're governed by different things. Countries governed by religion which is different in so many countries.

[01:10:52]countries governed by their culture which is different. Every country has a wayit similar including sanctity to life.

[01:11:04]Yeah, that one similar similar but under 18 >> to me I believe and this is something I I I strongly believe under 18 juveniles Maybe single mother.

[01:11:55]Yeah. I think I think we need to talk to our fellow men.

[01:12:01]>> Yes.

[01:12:12]Yeah. And when we have sex, we should have sex with people that we can be responsible with. Yes.

[01:12:18]>> Otherwise, please stop at the level of before sex.

[01:12:38]bundles. True. Also 18 is legal but you cannot you can also look weird with keeper.

[01:12:50]Don't forget 18y olds my friend uniform.

[01:13:14]crime ready to serve that times like you said George we make decisions for them yes we don't want to >> anyone under 18 I'm 16 I can make my own choices no that's why your parents are there to make and also your teachers had sex with them >> also the same parents what they sit down and then they look at the risks and what can be done for you whether they'll go there that's why we said there are certain parameters that have to be followed and that's why we are moderates we look at age but I have a 21 old choice. No, you already made a wrong choice by hanging out with No, by having unprotected sex and we know it.

[01:14:29]We can always build up any given time.

[01:14:44]If there was right now, if there was a way to >> Yeah. And all it took was for that syringe to go into your testicles. Would you do that so that you can now have unprotected sex?