Poland: On the Front Line of Freedom

[00:00:00]this winter will be decisive because Putin has knocked out four-fifths of Ukraine's electricity [music] generating capacity. Yes, that's really hard.

[00:00:11]>> And so if if he can't break Ukraine's will over [music] the coming winter, then I think we have reasonable prospects for peace next year. This is today's battlegrounds. Our discussions with leaders from around the world consider how history produced the present and how we can work together to overcome obstacles to progress, seize opportunities, and build a better tomorrow.

[00:00:46]On this episode of Today's Battlegrounds, our focus is on Poland.

[00:00:50]Our guest is Rodek Sikorski, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland.

[00:00:57]Minister Sikorski earlier served as speaker of the same the lower house of Poland's parliament from 2014 to 2015.

[00:01:04]As foreign minister from 2007 to 2014 [music] and as Minister of Defense from 2005 to 2007. As foreign minister, he launched the European Union's Eastern Partnership [music] and led the EU mission to Kiev that negotiated an end to violence during the Maidan protests.

[00:01:22]Before entering politics, [music] he reported as a war correspondent from Afghanistan and Angola, studied at Oxford, and held fellowships at the American Enterprise Institute and Harvard. The struggles to remain sovereign have dominated Poland's history. The Pass dynasty founded the Polish state in the 10th century and Catholic conversion anchored it to the west. The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth grew into one of Europe's largest states until Prussia, Austria, and Russia partitioned and erased it in the late 18th century. Poland regained independence after the First World War, only to be invaded, divided, and subsumed by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. In 1939, Nazi Germany attacked their Soviet co-conspirators on June 22nd, 1941.

[00:02:11]After the Red Army drove the Germans out of Poland in 1945, Moscow imposed communist rule and absorbed Poland into the Soviet block. The Solidarity Movement and other advocates for freedom, such as the Catholic Church, ended communist rule in Poland in 1989.

[00:02:28]Poland joined NATO in 1999 and the European Union in 2004.

[00:02:34]The US Poland relationship was forged at America's founding when Tedos Kosushko designed fortifications at West Point in Saratoga and Kazim Mesh Pui organized the Continental Army's cavalry falling at Savannah in 1779.

[00:02:51]As Poland was erased and reborn over two centuries, the United States championed Polish independence. Despite occupation, Poland fielded the fourth largest Allied force of the Second World War. During the Cold War, Washington backed Polish dissident and solidarity against Soviet domination and after 1989 supported Polish integration into NATO and the European Union. Today, Poland anchors NATO's eastern flank against Russia. It hosts approximately 10,000 US troops and a US missile defense site and has formally requested a permanent American base.

[00:03:28]Warsaw is the principal transit hub for military and humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, fields one of Europe's most ambitious military modernization programs, and confronts hybrid threats from Russia and Bellarus. Recent F-35 deliveries and a new Abrams tank service hub deepen US Polish industrial integration. Poland now devotes more than 4% of GDP to defense, the highest level in NATO and a benchmark for allied burden sharing.

[00:03:57]We welcome Deputy Prime Minister Sikorski to discuss the future of NATO deterrence on the alliance's eastern flank, the US Poland strategic partnership's role in securing Europe, [music] and what a successful outcome in Ukraine would mean for European security and the defense of democratic nations.

[00:04:20]Minister Radic Sakorski, welcome to today's battlegrounds. Thank you for making time for me and our and our awesome audience.

[00:04:26]>> Thank you, gentlemen.

[00:04:27]>> Hey, well, I I the first question I want to ask you. I'm a huge admire of Poland.

[00:04:31]You know, the Polish military, the Har.

[00:04:33]I'm an old cavalry officer, but you know, I wrote an essay some time ago about about Poland being unconquerable because of your history and how much you value your sovereignty. Could you maybe share with our viewers a thumbnail sketch of Polish Poland's history and how that has translated into tremendous resolve and defense of your sovereignty?

[00:04:52]>> Wow, that's quite a task. But we celebrated the coronation of our first king um a thousand years ago uh last year and Poland was a a medieval kingdom which took part in the European conversation and then in the 15th century we became a federal state together with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

[00:05:15]Um and it included the current most of the current territories of of Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, eventually Latvia and parts of Estonia. And actually for some parts of the uh um late Middle Ages and Renaissance period, it was the largest state in Europe. Um and it was democratic for its time. So it had a constitution, it had uh the gentry were about 10% of the population.

[00:05:44]uh and it was pretty strong militarily.

[00:05:46]So, you know, before the French uh uh the Russians actually celebrate their national day on the day that they chased out Polish occupiers from the Kremlin [laughter] in 1611. Um and then uh our neighbors became uh efficient military uh autocracies, Russia, uh Austria and uh Prussia. Well, we stayed as a as a kind of gentry democracy with interestingly um bills being adopted unanimously.

[00:06:24]>> Mhm.

[00:06:25]>> Arguably, we were too democratic.

[00:06:27][laughter] >> And at the at the end of the 18th century, these uh neighbors partitioned Poland and we disappeared from the map for 123 years with uprisings and all that. And then the three occupying empires, the Russian Empire, the the the the Vilmai, Germany and AustriaHungary, the Hubsburgs uh collapsed simultaneously as a result of World War I.

[00:07:00]The Soviet Union together invaded >> the Molotov Ribbon trough pact >> quite and they invaded together in uh September 1939 and Poland went through hell you know almost six years of occupation the Nazis uh uh creating uh concentration camps and carrying uh the Holocaust on occupied Polish land and then the Soviets uh Sovietizing all of central Europe as a result of Stalin's victory over over Hitler And then solid you know 45 years of communism against our will >> but again but stiff resistance.

[00:07:37]>> Um and eventually Poland gave uh the world um the Solidarity trade union.

[00:07:43]>> Yes.

[00:07:44]>> Which was supported from the west by conservatives because it was anti-communist >> and uh >> Catholic Church but also by the left because it was a trade union.

[00:07:55]>> The labor unions. Right. Yeah. and John Paul II and Leva and Ronald Reagan and Mrs. Thatcher. Um it all came together in in the late 1980s and uh and we regained our freedom as a result. Um we formed the first non-communist government in ' 89 when the Berlin war was still standing. I I was a a war correspondent in Afghanistan in the 80s.

[00:08:22]Ronald Reagan's support for the mujahedin also helped to weaken the Soviet Union and to bring this about and since then for 35 years we've had uninterrupted growth >> uh second only to China in that period >> right >> we are now at a trillion dollar economy on the threshold of of the G20 >> and we think we are an icon of the victory of democracy and free market and therefore we have a an inspiring story to tell to countries which are trying to achieve the same >> right I agree it is an inspiring story and I think once you lose your freedom you cherish it and you recognize the need to defend it right and and of course Poland is doing that reaching 4% of your of your GDP in defense and integrating >> actually 4.8 for hard defense and if you include uh dual use stuff and civic protection it's now 7%. It's because when Russia threatens us >> sure >> we treat it seriously. Could you maybe talk and I know it's not in your portfolio directly but but about some of the defense priorities and how you're integrating capabilities to defend yourself against Russian aggression which is I think you can argue I mean certainly is ongoing against Ukraine but is ongoing in a broader context uh in connection with this shadow war that Russia's been waging.

[00:09:39]>> So uh Putin has been waging a hybrid war against the west for over a decade. uh the the the west west was not quite accepting this uh and only realized that it's for real after the invasion of Ukraine. We've have we have arson. We have uh uh interference in politics. We have disinformation. Uh espionage of course, but we also have kinetic attacks. Uh they try to blow up a moving train. We also have incursions by uh cruise missiles and uh and drones. Um and we've we were spending 2% uh uh of GDP on defense for the last 20 years, but we've augmented it. Um we've placed um a hund over 120 contracts in the US for $65 billion worth of equipment. We'll have the second Apache fleet in the world.

[00:10:33]Hundreds of Abrahamses, hundreds of high mareses. We've t we already have F-16s.

[00:10:38]We've taken delivery of our first uh F-35s. We are also developing our own ind defense industry uh including um actually our short range uh anti-aircraft missiles have a better kill ratio than than uh than the Stinger and literally last week um uh Andural a US company signed a contract to produce deep strike weapons in my hometown. So we have a great relationship with the United States. The challenge now is to draw the lessons of the Ukraine Russia war and to implement them >> in our procurement, in our uh art of war and in our training and that's that's that's harder than most people think.

[00:11:25]>> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely it is. You know, you're a strong voice uh in NATO.

[00:11:29]You're an example in NATO. I mean, pre President Trump has called you a model ally um and a strong voice in the EU. in your portfolio, what what are what are your priorities for NATO, but I I guess especially the European Union. What is Polo Poland's agenda within the EU?

[00:11:45]>> Well, you're exactly right. We we feel NATO has been brought back to life by uh on the one hand Putin's aggression, >> but on the other hand, I have to say on President Trump's insistence that we have to spend more and we are. Um but uh what is not always understood is how important for us Europeans the European Union is.

[00:12:11]>> It's not just a free trade area, >> right?

[00:12:13]>> It's a confederation >> like you were under after independence but before the constitution.

[00:12:19]>> Sure. Uh so for example we think that as a market of 450 million uh rich consumers we get better trade deals with China or Braz whoever when we negotiate together.

[00:12:35]>> We also think that um it is useful particularly for American companies to have the same set of rules against that entire market.

[00:12:45]>> The alternative is not no regulation. it the alternatives is 27 different regulations.

[00:12:52]>> Sure.

[00:12:53]>> Um and the and the EU >> which was the whole purpose of the GAT years ago >> of course but but but this is a single market which means not just that there are no tariffs. It means that other countries you are your internal market.

[00:13:08]You can sell directly with no bureaucracy whatsoever.

[00:13:12]>> Right?

[00:13:12]>> Uh it's like you are selling in your own country.

[00:13:15]Um the EU also equalizes uh the uh standards of infrastructure across the union. It for example forced companies to lower roaming rates.

[00:13:29]>> Mhm.

[00:13:30]>> Uh and and and and some of its uh regulations are good. Some are some go too far and then we try to correct them.

[00:13:37]You know, it's politics. Um and uh and also there is a there is a myth that it's undemocratic. You know I was a member of the European Parliament >> which is of course a parliament for the entire union. You know >> the further you are from a decision maker the more suspicious you are.

[00:13:56]>> Um >> but it's democratically elected. um the uh European Commission which runs the union uh day-to-day is appointed by the member states >> and uh the European Council uh it's the prime ministers or presidents of the member states and it's these three institutions have to agree simultaneously >> right >> for [snorts] the law of for the law to be adopted so it's I I I actually can't imagine how much more democratic you can make it.

[00:14:29]>> Right. Right. Well, and and you know, there's you have a lot of uh you know, various agendas within the EU on energy security. uh I think also on defense infrastructure and >> thank you for saying it because it's not everybody appreciates that that yes we have a system whereby uh if you pollute too much you have to make contributions to uh renewable uh ways of of generating power which I you know uh there seems something seems to be happening to climate you know in Poland we've just had the record temperature of all time >> 40.5 five centra I don't know what it is in Fahrenheit and yes um the European Union which was originally a peace project >> it was about preventing Europeans from fighting another ever again >> sure yeah >> is now now has a defense budget >> from which we support Ukraine in fact we um uh pay for the entire war >> uh defense >> purchasing US weapons as well >> purchasing US weapons with European money we are sustaining meaning the functioning of the Ukrainian state and also Ukraine's defense budget. Ukraine's Ukraine producing for example millions of drones.

[00:15:45]>> It's all our European money.

[00:15:47]>> Yes. And that 19 billion that was recently transferred was critical uh to Ukraine >> without that would have been held up by Hungary.

[00:15:53]>> Pensions and salaries would would have stopped.

[00:15:56]>> Yes. You you have US troops uh in Poland. I'm a firm believer that that we have prevented great power conflicts since the end of World War II. uh essentially with forward positioned US capable US forces that operate as part of strong alliances along along the frontier such that potential enemies conclude they can't accomplish their objectives of the use of force. Could you maybe talk about your view of the value of forward positioned US troops in Europe?

[00:16:23]>> Well, as you know, Lord is famously said uh rather cruy that NATO is designed to keep the Americans in, the Germans down, and the Russians out. Uh I don't think the Germans need to be kept down anymore, but they but but the US presence certainly reassured everybody about the peaceful nature of democratic Germany which is a value.

[00:16:46]>> Um particularly if you encourage them to rearm on the scale that that is envisaged. Um and yes, US troops uh planted the seed of doubt in the Soviet leadership and in Russian leadership as to what would be the outcome of any invasion. Mhm.

[00:17:04]>> And that's that's what you need.

[00:17:06]>> And um and now the US troops need to be where the the threat is. And the threat is not in Italy or Spain or even in Germany. The threat is on the eastern flank.

[00:17:15]>> And so I'm glad that we already have one uh US permanent base of US missile defense. We have on a rotating basis between six and and 10,000 US troops.

[00:17:26]And it looks like um uh the US is interested in placing a a a brigades size force on a permanent basis in Poland. And we are very happy to uh uh to provide the logistical and uh and and other facilities for such a presence. We already uh um pay about $15,000 per US soldier uh per anom which means that it's cheaper for the US taxpayer to keep those s and to exercise those soldiers uh in Poland than it would be in the US.

[00:17:59]>> I for our viewers much much cheaper.

[00:18:01]When I was national supervisor for President Trump, I brought in the cost because you know he's a business guy. I said hey here's what it would cost to position this brigade. This is my old regiment, the psychic cavalry regiment which might be going to Poland. The US army is a great friend of US presence in Europe, >> right?

[00:18:16]>> Because it's it's where you can where where your presence makes sense. I I think your Pacific uh uh defense posture is mostly navy and air force. Huh.

[00:18:26]>> Well, we have quite quite a bit of army, a lot of army in South Korea, a lot of army in Japan also. Yeah.

[00:18:31]>> So, the NATO summit just concluded. Uh could you maybe share with our viewers your impressions of of the summit, your assessment of the of the strength of of NATO? uh given you know recent trends which are kind of positive I think in terms of countries increasing defense spending and also with the addition of of Finland and and Sweden it seems to me that Poland is kind of anchoring you know kind of a subset of NATO that includes the Baltic states and the Nordic states. Could you maybe share your views on that? So first of all, the summit was more amicable on the inside than on the outside, which is somewhat surprising. But I think President Trump uh is entitled to feeling satisfied that when his predecessors appeal to allies to allies to spend more, nothing happened.

[00:19:15]>> And he actually in his ineimitable style, God has to do it.

[00:19:20]>> Um and uh and and and and I think that if we spend more, we will get more respect for Europe. both in Moscow and in Washington, which is why we should do it. And of course also for for for our own self-defense. Um but yes, Pol, you know, the closer countries are to Russia, the more they spend on um defense and and the the core of countries that that are serious about uh about deterring Russia is the B is the Council of Baltic Sea states >> uh plus Romania and Turkey, >> right? um because we have to because the sense of insecurity is unevenly spread over the continent of Europe for obvious geographical reasons.

[00:20:08]>> Right. Right. You know, you know, I I traveled with President Trump to uh to Poland in 2017. I encouraged him to to make that his first stop in Europe and he was enthusiastic about it. And I also encouraged him to go to the 3C's conference which is a conference about largely about reducing dependence on on on Russian energy which turned out to be pretty preient you know and >> yeah and good business for the US. We are now buying American LNG instead.

[00:20:32]>> Well I was just going to say that was the plan in 2017 is to make Poland a hub for the distribution of natural gas regionally. And I ask you how that's going. I think it's a success story for the US. uh and you know and and it turns out it's pretty bad a bad idea to give a hostile authoritarian state course of power over your economy in the form of Nordstream one and Nordstream 2 you know uh that that uh could you maybe talk about energy security and and Poland's role now um >> so Germany uh under Angela Merkel and before believed in um uh transformation through trade yes that you know if we become big enough customer for Russian ass. Surely they will not risk that relationship for some silly ideas.

[00:21:18]>> Vladimir Putin's heart will grow two sizes bigger.

[00:21:21]>> You know, they can't be serious about rebuilding empire. It's it's too pass, right? So, they got that wrong.

[00:21:27]>> Mhm.

[00:21:28]>> And we were saying no, don't let him uh build pipelines that bypass central Europe because that's a recipe for war, right?

[00:21:38]>> You know, for for trying to subjugate coercion. Yeah. for and and for coercion like we have attempts with critical minerals today. Right.

[00:21:47]>> Right. Right. With >> quite um so you know we got vindicated unfortunately about uh Putin's intention intentions uh his capabilities are less than we thought but his intentions are even worse than we thought.

[00:22:03]>> Right.

[00:22:04]>> Would you maybe bridge into that into the topic then of China? You already mentioned China's control over critical supply chains and the way that they've weaponized really their status mercantalist economic model uh against Europe against the United States against you know other free market economies uh we've seen in recent years this coalescing of of of Russia and Poland or the partnership with no limits the growth of that partnership bringing into the fold other authoritarian regimes how do you see the threat from these two revisionist powers on the on the Eurasian landmass and what policies make sense from a diplomatic and and geoeconomic perspective in relation to these two authoritarian regimes that have pulled into the fold these other hostile states.

[00:22:47]>> So Poland has a pragmatic relationship with China and we recognize one China and China has never done anything evil to us unlike Russia.

[00:22:58]>> Um but that's not to say that we should be naive about their industrial policies or their trade policies. So in the EU, we've just literally uh two weeks ago, we've just introduced a um a um transactional task attacks on um uh the small parcels that they were sending to us. You know, something that was designed for people sending each other presents was used to try to literally destroy our small industry.

[00:23:31]>> Uh 4.6 6 billion >> parcels peranom.

[00:23:36]>> Wow.

[00:23:36]>> Re reaching uh Europe. Um and we shouldn't be naive when when the the Chinese authorities tell us that they might um limit our access to either permanent magnets >> or to some of the rare rare earths and critical materials.

[00:23:55]>> They have I mean they they are everywhere in the in the earth's crust.

[00:24:01]But the mining and the uh refining uh has become a Chinese specialtity >> and you know it's a kind of weapon of mass destruction if it was used as a as as blackmail.

[00:24:15]>> And so I was very pleased when Marco Rubio convened in um in Washington a conference uh to to to to think in among allies as to what we do about it. and we plan a follow-up conference uh in Warso.

[00:24:31]We we should not be subjected to to to blackmails.

[00:24:35]>> You know, you know, I I'm encouraged by the degree to which the US and Europe are working together on some of these issues. Uh I I I feared for a while that Putin would succeed in what he wanted to do with Ukraine, I think, which is to get the United States to sign on for terms for a ceasefire that were unacceptable to the Ukrainians and and to Europe, and to use that as a wedge to kind of rend the transatlantic relationship, break NATO apart. Could you maybe share with our viewers your assessment of the the war in Ukraine, how Ukraine is is doing, uh the the recent effects maybe they've had on Russia and and what you think the prospects might be for a restoration of some some peace or at least a ceasefire there?

[00:25:16]>> As a military man, you know that most wars, I'm not talking about Desert Storm, are not linear. you know when if they last years you know they opponents sometimes have the initiative and not all the time. So at the beginning Russia had the initiative obviously uh Ukraine counteratt attacked in 2023 last all through last year and the winter Russia at a huge cost in Material and people kept on moving and now I think it's a draw with some hopeful elements for Ukraine. So I at sea um Ukraine can still export its its grain although there have been some hiccups recently but Russia has uh has been hit very hard with sea drones and so on in the air they can both send crews and ballistic missiles well ballistic missiles mostly Russia and drones into each other's territory but they don't have air domination or or even air uh access Right.

[00:26:24]>> Um, and on land it's it's literally the the the front line comes and goes with Ukraine having achieved fire control over the land bridge between Donbas and Crimea.

[00:26:36]>> Yes.

[00:26:36]>> And then there are these deep strikes where Russian tactics seems to me not only illegal and cruel but fundamentally uh wrong. namely they hit um population centers and uh heating and electricity plant which causes hardship but doesn't affect the ar the Ukrainian army's ability to fight whereas the Ukrainians are hitting refineries which is affecting the Russian economy and the army's ability to fight. So I think this winter will be decisive because Putin has knocked out four fifths of Ukraine's electricity generating capacity. Yes, that's really hard.

[00:27:21]>> And so if if he can't break Ukraine's will over the coming winter, then I think we have reasonable prospects for peace next year.

[00:27:32]>> I I hope so. You know, I I'd like to We're sitting here in Silicon Valley. Uh when I was last in Poland, I I went to visit KKOff and and the tech sector there is really vibrant. I talked to with members of a of an organization of entrepreneurs and and it reminded me a bit of Silicon Valley and and the vibrancy there. Could you talk a little bit more about the the growth of Poland's economy which has been I think very successful and and the vibrancy of that of your economy and and uh and opportunities for investment in Poland.

[00:28:03]Uh, I'm glad you came because uh, anybody who comes to Poland and remembers it perhaps from uh, the time of uh, reports from communist Poland is amazed. You know, we've built a firstass infrastructure. U, we have 10 times as many fast trains than than the United States. [laughter] >> Hey, we're, you know, we're trying to build one in California. I don't think it's ever going to happen, but you know.

[00:28:29]Well, and yes, we have a tech sector in in Polish cities, but I visited uh today in San Francisco a group of Poles doing business here. And uh and they say that regulation is is is easier here. Access to capital is is is easier. Um we need to learn from each other uh how to foster um more creativity in in the in the in Poland and the EU. You know, when I was in Krokoff, it was October 7th, 2023 >> and and uh I was um I was walking out of Burkanau uh when my phone starts buzzing about what was happening uh in in u in in Israel with the with the horrible attacks out of Gaza.

[00:29:12]>> Of course, since then, we've seen Israel thrust into a sevenfront war. We've seen some big changes in the Middle East with Assad gone, uh the direct attacks against Israel in 24, the direct attacks against Iran in in uh in 25, and now this ongoing war really the a US war against Iran with 14 other states, you know, having been subjected to um Iranian aggression there. What's the Polish view, your view uh of of the war in the Middle East? What's at stake there? and um and what would Poland like to see in terms of the outcome and and maybe Polish participation in uh maybe reestablishing, you know, freedom of navigation and the straight of Hormuz?

[00:29:52]How do you see the problem from Poland's perspective?

[00:29:55]>> Well, I first of all, I'm glad you visited the uh Nazi German extermination camp. Of course, >> I I think every human being should visit it and reflect on what people are capable of doing to one another when you dehumanize another country or another nation or another religion. Uh and it should give you pause for particularly to decision makers. Um Poland uh recognizes obviously the right of Israel to exist within secure internationally recognized borders. We have uh we still have a we used to be in the Golan Heights for 30 years. We're still in the Lebanon >> uh with the UN mission there. Mhm.

[00:30:40]>> Um and um we were deprived of deprived of our own state, which means that we feel solidarity with both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

[00:30:52]>> We we recognize Palestine because we think a two-state solution is the ultimate way for 7 million Israelis and 7 millions 7 million Palestinians to to to live in peace next to each other.

[00:31:08]>> Yeah. And uh and and how about on Iran?

[00:31:10]What do you think the future of Iran will look like?

[00:31:14]>> Well u we have diplomatic relations with Iran, but it is the 20th century last utopia in power. We had the fascist utopia, we had the communist utopia, and this is the theocratic utopia.

[00:31:29]>> And of course, utopia usually looks like hell, right? Utopias always lead to mass murder >> because you are you're murdering people in what you think is just cause but you don't you're just murdering people >> and the the fundamental problem with Iran is that that it behaves like a cause like a revolution not like a country. Iran is of course entitled to its national security interests but it is not entitled to export its system to to other countries. Um and uh and and you know we want status quo. We want freedom of navigation in almost straight and we think that Iran is not entitled to annex an international water line water way >> you know that's international territory and if we allow one country to annex a straight there are other such places in the world. There is the Danish straits.

[00:32:31]Uh there is the Dell Mala. There is Mala. There is Taiwan Strait. You know you the end of the movie is a very bad one.

[00:32:42]>> Absolutely. So I'd like to just ask you one final question then give you a final word. Um you know I when I look at the US European relationship it's been rocky. There have been what what I think are gratuitous and utterly counterproductive insults uh that have I think eroded trust. um you know the whole Greenland issue and threats uh threats against uh Denmark uh disparaging remarks uh about >> we also don't like the interference in our politics.

[00:33:10]>> I don't think US politicians would like it if I went around Chicago telling uh Polish Americans how they should vote.

[00:33:17]>> Well, and and President Trump didn't like it when when President Silinski visited visited Pennsylvania in the middle of an election. Right. I >> among allies, we should respect each one another's political processes. I I totally agree, but I'm hoping we can get over it, you know, especially in the wake of the of the successful NATO summit. And it occurs to me that European priorities are US priorities in terms of countering Chinese economic aggression, making our supply chains more resilient, energy security, invigorating our industrial base, strengthening our defense, um you know, being winning in the competition for critical technologies uh especially AI and the application of AI uh to you know to economic endeavors but also to defense. So I'd like to ask you, do you see it that way? I see President Trump's agenda and the Draghi report kind of lining up very well. Uh what do you think is an appropriate positive agenda?

[00:34:08]What would be your positive agenda for Europe US and and Poland US uh in the coming years?

[00:34:15]So I think some of the statements are colored by a a misunderstanding of the nature of the relationship particularly in the economic sphere because on defense we've already agreed that Europe had catchup to do and that was right.

[00:34:30]Um, so yes, it's true that the US has a slight um, trade deficit in the trade of goods, but that's partly because the US has a big um, budget deficit. When you are spending more than you're earning, you're sucking goods from the rest of the world. That's number one.

[00:34:49]>> And American per capita income is pretty good, which allows you to buy more stuff, you know, right? Yeah. But secondly, you have a huge surplus in the trade in services. Every time a European watches Netflix, some of that money comes back to the US. Every time that Netflix shows you a Hollywood movie, that comes back to the US. Every time we use your social media, that comes back to the US. And when you count uh both, it's roughly in balance. Plus, um, uh, European pensioners send $30 billion dollars, uh, worth of their savings to Wall to be invested on Wall Street every year.

[00:35:30]>> Mhm.

[00:35:31]>> What's not to like?

[00:35:34]>> And they get [clears throat] the better returns that way too, you know.

[00:35:36]>> Sure. What's not to like [laughter] here in California? Let me quote a former governor of California, Ronald Reagan. When someone agrees with you 80%, he's not a 20% enemy. He's an 80% friend.

[00:35:53]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. We can work it out. We can work it out. So, hey, I you've been very gracious with your time. I'd like to ask you one last question. What uh you've you've been a journalist. You've been in combat zones.

[00:36:04]You've uh you've served in the European uh Parliament uh European Union uh and and uh in government. Uh you know, what what are your top leadership lessons for our audience? What have you learned across your multiple careers? Do you think are most important lessons for for leadership?

[00:36:21]>> I think leadership is not only following your uh your uh electors and uh and and public opinion. You have to do that to a large extent. You have to keep your promises. You have to pay attention to what your voters think. But you also have a duty to tell them like it is and to over a medium term shape public opinion for what you believe is right in the long term.

[00:36:53]>> Um and this actually changing the world is the only good reason to be in politics >> because otherwise it's not super fun a lot of times. Right. Right.

[00:37:03]>> Any final words for our audience? Uh, Rodic, >> come and see us in Poland and see for yourself.

[00:37:09]>> So, Rodic Sakorski, thank you so much for joining me and our audience and helping us learn about today's Battlegrounds and from from your invaluable perspective. Thank you.

[00:37:18]>> Thank you.

[00:37:20]>> Battlegrounds is a production of the Hoover Institution where we generate and promote ideas advancing freedom. For more information about our work, to hear more of our podcasts or view our video content, please visit hoover.org.