EPISODE 97 | Dr. Maluleke on Soul Brother's, Dr. Thomas Chauke's Book, Honorary in churches and Tert

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:04]I remember there's a photograph which we shot when we was when we were in his >> studio.

[00:00:09]>> Yeah.

[00:00:10]>> Where I was interviewing him about who is >> Shinori.

[00:00:15]>> Uh yes I knew about Shinori.

[00:00:17]>> Yeah.

[00:00:18]>> But I had to get it from the mouth. Like one question that so many people or part of the discourse >> Yeah.

[00:00:27]>> I had to ask him about that.

[00:00:29]>> Yeah.

[00:00:30]Hey was born in South Africa.

[00:00:32]>> Yeah.

[00:00:33]>> His father migrated from Mozambi.

[00:00:35]Mozambi.

[00:00:36]>> His father was Chang.

[00:00:43]>> I met Steve >> because I wanted to interview him about your brother. Since they were counterparts, what I've done, >> I made sure that I mastered it. Z.

[00:00:59]>> Yes.

[00:01:00]>> You cannot take an academic title.

[00:01:04]>> Yeah.

[00:01:05]>> I went a situation.

[00:01:13][laughter] Shi, shipping.

[00:01:42][music] >> [music] >> Shang podcast.

[00:02:01][music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Fore speech.

[00:02:24][music] >> [music] [music] >> network. Yeah.

[00:03:00]books.

[00:03:03]So principal Shangan Shan Gang. podcast.

[00:04:01]I'm standing I think [laughter] I mean Yeah.

[00:04:53]And I know many people will ask what's my name also after unfortunately [laughter] but Yeah, [laughter] >> education beard honors and masters. M >> masters in applied linguistics uh with interest in writing >> and [clears throat] that's when uh after that I was inspired my PhD in writing.

[00:06:00]>> M focusing on the development of voice in writing.

[00:06:05]>> Yeah.

[00:06:06]>> Yeah.

[00:06:08]>> That's basically where I am.

[00:06:09]>> Yeah.

[00:06:10]>> But okay, I've read something nimar book also. Maybe we touch on that later on.

[00:06:15]Yeah.

[00:06:20]So destructive.

[00:06:41]Okay [clears throat] specializing in English as a major subject.

[00:06:48]The interesting part is that we had to choose between two subjects subjects from A B C D E and F. So between biology and English then I for biology. Okay.

[00:07:17]few days. Okay. I registered on a Friday, on a Monday when we starting to attend.

[00:07:26]I can allow that.

[00:07:28]>> Yeah.

[00:07:28]>> I'm going to do English. Then I went back and did English and I passed >> well compared to the other years.

[00:07:35]>> There I completed my degree. Yeah.

[00:07:39]>> There after [clears throat] my father encouraged me honors.

[00:07:43]>> Yeah. Then the following year I went back to do my honors >> again in English.

[00:07:48]>> Even my masters.

[00:07:50]>> Yeah.

[00:07:50]>> Again in English. So for the longest time when I was doing my masters we did a certain module which focus on writing biographical stories.

[00:08:08]>> Oh no no I see. I see. Yeah.

[00:08:10]>> So that sparked my interest. Oh yeah, >> the biographical stories.

[00:08:17]>> Oh, >> that's why the following year when I started working as I worked as a teacher. So >> I wanted to take that interest further.

[00:08:25]>> Yeah.

[00:08:29]>> You know what? I'm not busy. What can I do to keep myself busy?

[00:08:32]>> Then that I came with a thought.

[00:08:35]>> Oh yes.

[00:08:35]>> By that time I was associated brothers.

[00:08:38]>> We traveling together all over. Then I approached black Moses.

[00:08:45]>> You know what? We need to write a book.

[00:08:46]It was after David M died.

[00:08:55]Yes.

[00:08:56]>> So that at least whoever is going to tell the story would will not be as reliable as you. Yes.

[00:09:07]Well, I will trust.

[00:09:12]>> Then that old man agreed. Then we wrote the book Vango [snorts] Brothers, the life and times, the life and times of the so brothers.

[00:09:19]That was in 2015.

[00:09:21]>> Yeah.

[00:09:21]>> Uh I think I started it in December 2015.

[00:09:26]2016 I was busy writing the book. I traveled all around the country in Natal family started founder members of the group. Uh I remember I went to Hammersdale.

[00:09:38]I went to the same place.

[00:09:43]>> Yeah. To meet the family of another found his name was his nickname was American.

[00:09:52]That's why American Israel. So those kind of things. So I went to [clears throat] and meet the family of the gentleman.

[00:10:12]>> He's no more >> by that time. So collected all this information >> and put it together into what we call their only biography today.

[00:10:23]>> Yes.

[00:10:24]>> So yeah the 11 times which we launched in 2017.

[00:10:33]Yeah.

[00:10:35]>> So in the process of writing that book >> I was still working as a teacher.

[00:10:39]>> Yeah. Uh I met Steve Gagan because I wanted to interview him about so brothers since they were counterparts.

[00:10:49]>> After so brothers emerged and came up with this style of playing township soul music.

[00:11:00]>> Yeah.

[00:11:05]>> Yeah.

[00:11:07]emerged. So they became competitors, they became contenders.

[00:11:12]>> So I had to ask him, okay, >> what do you know about these guys?

[00:11:17]>> Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:18]>> When I met him, I only found that he had he had interest.

[00:11:25]>> Yes.

[00:11:28]>> Then I said, you know what? I don't want to miss this opportunity because as well so that's how so I wrote that book I in me I okay to give a background about He was a blind man.

[00:12:03]So he called the book the eye in me.

[00:12:06]>> Not the Imm.

[00:12:08]>> The I the person in me.

[00:12:10]>> Yes.

[00:12:10]>> He's talking about his own identity as a black as a as a blind person >> and how he understands understand himself.

[00:12:17]>> So we wrote that book simultaneously soul brothers.

[00:12:23]>> Mhm. So that was 2016. Towards the end of the year, >> yeah it was around August I started just saying Kanyo brothers but writing at the same time. Can we interview her because now we started to develop a relationship.

[00:12:40]Then I yeah you know I started to have interest then I spoke to my father. You know what you know what since you and Shinor have been friends [laughter] you know I Can't talk can't you talk to you know what I want to write a book about an interesting part is that my father has started writing a book >> about this because he has spent a lot of his life almost his life listening to so brother host for that matter having a personal relation >> yeah which had led to his marriage to come to my home many years ago.

[00:13:24]>> Oh.

[00:13:25]>> Yeah.

[00:13:26]>> So, oh no, when when we approach and >> we wrote a book together, we he agreed.

[00:13:35]>> Yeah.

[00:13:36]>> And that was in December 2016. I remember the first day we had the first interview was on the 1 of January 2017.

[00:13:48]>> I'm just remembering these things.

[00:13:50][laughter] >> Yeah. So um I remember there's a photograph which we shot when we was when we were in his >> studio.

[00:13:59]>> Yeah.

[00:14:00]>> Where I was interviewing him about who is Shinori?

[00:14:04]>> Uh yes I knew about Shinori.

[00:14:06]>> Yeah.

[00:14:07]>> But I had to get it from the mouth like one question that so many people or part of the discourse.

[00:14:16]>> Yeah.

[00:14:17]>> I had to ask him about that.

[00:14:18]>> Yeah.

[00:14:21]>> And because I know so many people call him first of all that's how he became popular that's the greatest honor because that's your birthight I'm not talking about the individual but now I'm talking about the musician.

[00:14:53]>> Yeah.

[00:14:55]>> Yes. So we approach >> and we proposed this idea of writing a book and he mentioned you know what [laughter] so that's how we started the process.

[00:15:19]Then in 2017 >> while I was busy working on the book >> that's when I published brothers >> and we sold the book and it did so well so well >> in the process I did a lot of research because I did a lot of interviews [clears throat] >> with his family.

[00:15:44]the most one one interview that touches me.

[00:15:51]She was still alive when we >> then I interviewed the old woman because I wanted her own >> and where does this family come from?

[00:16:04]And she told me exactly she had I think man than he had to be born.

[00:16:30]Yeah.

[00:16:49]of >> Oh, >> so I interviewed the old woman >> and I've transcribed the interviews the way she said them >> as an old woman.

[00:17:02]>> Yeah.

[00:17:02]>> Yeah. So that was the >> special moment.

[00:17:06]>> Special moment for me. Yes.

[00:17:07]>> So that's how we interviewed. And to clarify that Shin was born in South Africa.

[00:17:12]>> Yeah.

[00:17:13]>> His father migrated from Mozambi. His father was he speaks mostly about is the younger brother of Okay. Okay.

[00:17:45]Yeah.

[00:18:01]Oh yeah according to the book then So we had to ask those kind of questions when we to be brave to ask him >> so that they can clarify it because the importance of these books >> is to get the clarity from the his mouth.

[00:18:47]>> Yeah.

[00:18:48]>> Since people have been speculating so many things about >> he has done this, he has not done this.

[00:18:56]So >> when these people are still alive for the fact that they are public figures, >> we need to sit down with them and ask them, >> yeah, >> who are you?

[00:19:05]>> Is this true or not?

[00:19:07]>> Yes.

[00:19:08]>> So, so that's when the writing part of it came about. So I wrote a book. In the process, Steve called me.

[00:19:24]M >> you want me to die without getting it?

[00:19:27]>> Then I said, you know what?

[00:19:32]>> We wrote the book >> and published it in 2019.

[00:19:35]>> Yeah.

[00:19:37]>> We went with we we launched it in Den.

[00:19:39]>> Yeah.

[00:19:41]>> Later on uh after writing these books, but let me let me put it like this.

[00:19:46]After writing these books, >> I wrote nominations for these guys Steve and Moses to be honored by UNISA. I dropped them there >> and they were considered >> and those two guys were honored with honorary doctorates 2020. They were honored alongside the late and this old man.

[00:20:13]>> Yeah.

[00:20:13]>> I think that's the name.

[00:20:14]>> I was in that graduation.

[00:20:15]>> You were there? Ah, >> so they were honored there. Even Steve mentioned it in his uh acceptance speech.

[00:20:23]>> The person who facilitated all the things was Mle.

[00:20:27]>> Yeah.

[00:20:28]>> Why I'm mentioning this?

[00:20:29]>> Yeah.

[00:20:30]>> It's as if there was a good timing in what we're doing.

[00:20:32]>> Yeah.

[00:20:32]>> That happened in 2020 2021. Steve >> died less than a year after that honorary.

[00:20:39]>> Yeah. and that was the last day I saw him.

[00:20:51]>> So that's how [clears throat] we wrote this book. So Yeah. No, we're interested if I think the benefici Okay.

[00:22:00]No.

[00:22:04]Okay. Don't you think we can ask it the other way around? Yeah.

[00:22:08]>> Because this was the last book I published about these guys. Let's start with the first one.

[00:22:11]>> It's fine.

[00:22:14]Soul brothers. Soul brothers. Yeah.

[00:22:15]because yeah >> the all these books have have had their own challenges.

[00:22:30]>> Yeah.

[00:22:31]>> H the soul brothers book uh to add to what you said >> they've received so many accolades.

[00:22:39]>> Yeah.

[00:22:41]>> They've sold many copies.

[00:22:42]>> Yeah. M as early as 1983 if I'm not mistaken. They were even given one summers. I think yeah those are summers they even metia you know they've traveled prize >> but the challenge that I met you know okay first the issue of agism >> I'm young >> the band was formed over 15 years after I was born.

[00:23:20]>> So when you have got to write about someone older than you, >> that's first thing then to defend that very [laughter] first thing and all these cassettes were there.

[00:23:49]>> Then I've done research whether I'm young or not. I've done I've done research >> with the people who were part of the band from the beginning.

[00:23:59]>> One of them being the founder, the only remain founder, Moses Wang.

[00:24:02]>> Yeah.

[00:24:03]>> So again, I've read a lot of newspaper clips and magazine clips, stories, >> everything. I've gone to libraries >> and to a certain library.

[00:24:23]>> Yeah.

[00:24:24]>> To research about the death of the first people to die in the band.

[00:24:34]>> I went to check all the newspapers that were available by then. And is there anything that was captured >> about those about that particular funeral? Now >> then I did what I found photographs of the funerals >> being covered by a newspaper.

[00:24:52]>> That's when we write a story.

[00:24:54]>> But there was a lot of research that was being done.

[00:24:56]>> Yeah.

[00:24:57]>> Irrespective of whether I was born >> or was not born.

[00:25:01]>> So that was a challenge because there were people who were like some of whom I won't even mention by names.

[00:25:10]We're coming to that one. [laughter] >> When I wrote the book, I was appreciated. Let me be honest. The Zulus appreciated what I've done.

[00:25:28]And yes, I've done consultations with people who speak because I don't know much about English and a bit of Africa. In fact, Africans.

[00:25:40]>> Yeah.

[00:25:40]>> Yeah. I can write also in Africans.

[00:25:42]>> So, but I've done corrections where I told them, show me where the wrong is.

[00:25:54]>> Yeah. Then that's correct.

[00:25:55]>> Yeah.

[00:25:56]>> Yes. But what I like certain things were not written correct.

[00:26:03]A certain way there was not correct.

[00:26:05]Maybe spelling.

[00:26:07]>> They did not dispute the story.

[00:26:09]>> Yeah.

[00:26:10]>> You get what I mean?

[00:26:11]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:14]But we we corrected that because you still want your work to be in top notch.

[00:26:18]Yeah.

[00:26:18]>> Yeah. In in good standing. Um to be honest, the Zulus appreciated what they have done.

[00:26:25]>> Yeah.

[00:26:26]>> And I ask that I speak on I took the mic and speak on stage. Yeah.

[00:26:37]>> What I've done, >> I made sure that I mastered it.

[00:26:46]Yes.

[00:27:03]So those guys they bought the But it sold more than 500 copies.

[00:27:21]>> Oh no, that's a lot. That's a lot, >> right?

[00:27:25]>> And we have gone to a point.

[00:27:30]We have even translated it into >> Oh yeah.

[00:27:33]>> So then we go to the second one.

[00:27:39]>> Not at all.

[00:27:41]>> Didn't have challenges.

[00:27:42]>> Yeah. And it sold over a thousand copies that Steve was a hit.

[00:27:48]>> It sold challenges.

[00:27:53]>> So brothers >> because the old man >> was very supportive.

[00:27:57]>> Yeah.

[00:27:57]>> And he understood this person can do whatever >> he says he can do.

[00:28:03]>> He gave me that go, you know. We just spoke on the phone.

[00:28:06]>> He has been a December. He called me and I showed him, oh, this is the angle I'm going to use.

[00:28:21]>> We are writing this book based on your own vision as the only surviving member.

[00:28:26]But right also there >> again I want some unknown photos of the group that we never seen anywhere. Yeah.

[00:28:40]>> Whatever people >> which I would never ever think anywhere and he was so cooperative and very supportive >> he would he would never allow that.

[00:29:09]>> Yeah. So I remember one story. Okay. I remember one story a certain journalist >> wrote on >> Sunday World and didn't mention my name.

[00:29:22]>> Yeah.

[00:29:23]>> The old man was so livid about it.

[00:29:27]>> Yeah.

[00:29:29]>> That was a blessing in disguise.

[00:29:31]>> Before drum folded drama magazine folded >> a veteran journalist called me >> called Moses. Yeah, >> for many years.

[00:29:54]>> I've seen this on newspaper, man. Don't you want us to >> take it further? Yeah.

[00:29:58]>> Take it further. I want to write about you and write an article about what you have done.

[00:30:04]>> Mhm.

[00:30:05]>> Then the old man like I'm saying, he was very supportive. Yeah.

[00:30:14][laughter] >> I was so happy because Okay. Growing up, >> uh, tribute, peace, >> boner, drum, >> whatever. What have you, whatever you think of magazine.

[00:30:38]But I never had an a I never dreamed of it, >> but I never thought one day maybe >> I want I can be featured in one of the magazines.

[00:30:49]>> Then he called me and and article was written and we captured them.

[00:31:02]>> That was the most beautiful thing ever.

[00:31:04]>> Yeah. just through the support of that old man and we coming back to the challenges and all those things.

[00:31:26]>> I was in the background.

[00:31:28]>> Yeah.

[00:31:29]>> With the so brothers managing their projects.

[00:31:32]>> Yeah. So I managed the band in one way the other. Yeah.

[00:31:36]>> So would go on TV. You know these people go with them on TVations.

[00:31:52]It was the 48th celebration >> of the anniversary 40th anniversary celebration.

[00:32:00]SBC2, ETV, all these TV channels.

[00:32:07]And interestingly, this is a person grew up idolizing.

[00:32:11]>> Yeah.

[00:32:12]>> Yeah. So, we find ourselves going around together interviews.

[00:32:19]>> Yeah. So, at the same time, you're working, you know, there was that's what that's what was happening the past few years. Yeah.

[00:32:28]>> So, the question. No, no, no.

[00:32:34]Okay.

[00:32:50][clears throat] Okay.

[00:33:29]Thomas.

[00:33:31][clears throat] Yeah.

[00:33:53][snorts] Yeah. [laughter] Before I answer that one.

[00:33:59]>> Yeah. [laughter] to too many.

[00:34:02]>> No, I need to >> I I always said >> yeah, >> I've kept whatever challenges that happened about this book under the reps.

[00:34:11]>> Yeah.

[00:34:12]>> Uh >> if there are any challenges that we know of, they were not by me.

[00:34:17]>> Yeah.

[00:34:28]come and no I don't account for things that I didn't take to social media [laughter] >> but then whatever happened is public knowledge >> challenges >> and I've never spoken about this thing ever since the book has been published.

[00:34:58]the whole hours.

[00:35:04]I don't know. Sometimes [laughter] you've got to turn back and it happened Saturday. I was so livid.

[00:35:10]>> You can't drive >> to me. That is disrespectful.

[00:35:18]>> Yeah.

[00:35:19]>> Of my time for that matter. M >> and that's what part of this is the why is the reason why there was a delay >> m >> in the publishing of the book >> the book as I mentioned 2016 2017 >> but it was published in 2022 part of this was those kind of things >> but over And the squibles were caused by the fact.

[00:36:18]Yeah.

[00:36:25]So the question was who owns the book between >> the author >> and the subject >> the one that you write about.

[00:36:33]>> Yeah.

[00:36:34]>> Those things caused so many problems. I tried to uh bring it to his understanding >> book I wrote about you.

[00:36:46]>> Yeah. But the book belongs to the person who wrote it.

[00:36:50]>> Yeah.

[00:36:51]>> It might be whe it's an authorized autobiograph >> or unauthorized. And those are two different things. And you it's right that you're mentioning whether authorized or unauthorized because there's a debate but there's a debate whether this is an authorized biography or an unauthorized biography. Yeah.

[00:37:07]>> And what is the difference between the two? An unauthorized biography is when I just decide to write something about you without consultation with you.

[00:37:16]>> That's unauthorized.

[00:37:17]>> Yeah.

[00:37:18]>> And if you're a public figure, >> I do have the right.

[00:37:22]>> Yes.

[00:37:22]>> We we've got the right to write about you. They've written so many stories about Dr. Kumar and whoever >> Nelson Mandela >> Nelson Mandela without even consulting them >> based on my own knowledge and whatever I could have researched about you.

[00:37:33]>> Yeah.

[00:37:34]>> Gandi does an authorized biography. Mhm.

[00:37:36]>> What makes it authorized is that >> I've consulted with you.

[00:37:40]>> Yes.

[00:37:41]>> And you've given an authorized version of the story.

[00:37:46]>> So why I'm making this >> I remember I'll come back to the the real meat of this.

[00:37:53]>> When the controversy started, >> it was posted on Facebook by a certain guy who's an advocate if I'm not mistaken.

[00:38:00]I've never spoken about this before.

[00:38:03]>> It was done on social media. M >> m >> and he mentioned that the book was not endorsed.

[00:38:10]>> M >> then I had a question of who endorses a book between an author and the subject.

[00:38:16]>> The book was not blessed.

[00:38:18]>> Yeah.

[00:38:18]>> Who blesses a book between an author and the subject?

[00:38:21]>> Uh if we come back to the unauthorized part of it, >> the book is not blessed by the >> Exactly.

[00:38:26]>> by the by the subject.

[00:38:28]>> Yeah.

[00:38:28]>> And even if we come to the author authorized part of it, >> the last person who has got a say is the person who wrote it. Exactly.

[00:38:36]>> So there were so many there were quarrels about the book.

[00:38:45]>> When do you publish it? How do you publish it? And who must publish it?

[00:38:53]Now we're debating about Yes.

[00:39:05]Yeah, >> right.

[00:39:09]>> Yes, I interviewed you. This is what can happen.

[00:39:16]The same story, but everybody's going to put the story in his own unique way.

[00:39:21]>> Yeah.

[00:39:21]>> That's why they call this an intellectual property. M >> that's requested that because you've got a lawyer son, >> can we request a son to intervene? Yeah.

[00:39:33]>> Because I don't want to have a situation where I come up with a lawyer. We sit together in a corner.

[00:39:50]So that's how I made it. Everything let it be handled.

[00:39:54]lawyer >> by the lawyer from the from the family.

[00:39:57]>> Yeah.

[00:39:57]>> But a lawyer is a lawyer and the lawyer at the same time is a son. You should also protect the interest of the father.

[00:40:04]>> That's where the problem started. M so I don't know maybe didn't understand it very well or maybe was because everything >> no other than that even if you know the truth >> uh you want to protect your what your client >> but I didn't take it from an angle that is >> I'm not his client his father is his client I just wanted him to mediate the situation >> respecting our relationship as my father has his relationship with his father >> and the fact that one of the wives so we need to respect all those things that's why even now when I we deal with this matter >> I deal with it with respect >> you understand we've had meetings and letters being sent to me not halfway way. The book is complete >> and I even printed the book.

[00:41:12]>> You get it?

[00:41:13]>> With your own resources.

[00:41:14]>> Yes. With my own resources.

[00:41:17]>> So, >> this is the eye opener.

[00:41:20]When you write a book about someone, >> um, it depends on contracts.

[00:41:26]>> Yeah.

[00:41:27]>> Some contracts may say, "Okay, because I'm writing about you, I'll give you something."

[00:41:33]>> Yeah. Mhm.

[00:41:34]>> But you not obligated as an author to do so.

[00:41:37]>> Because this is an intellectual property >> and intellectual property gives you what we call copyright.

[00:41:45]>> Intellectual property is the product of your mind.

[00:41:47]>> Yes.

[00:41:48]>> So you claim because you're on the subject the book belongs to you.

[00:41:53]>> Yeah.

[00:41:54]>> Whose mind worked to write a book?

[00:41:56]>> Exactly.

[00:41:57]>> Having participated in an interview and you not writing a book.

[00:42:11]Yes, I know that. So, >> that's where things go wrong.

[00:42:16]>> Yeah. And the old man, >> you know, it's like >> I believe there should have been people who call him and try to show, you know what, this is how far you can go. But I believe those people, you understand?

[00:42:43]>> Yeah.

[00:42:44]>> So we got to that point we had a meeting. I remember another day. I think it was 17th of July 2022. We spent the whole day trying to fix this matter Singap. But I because I was running at the loss. I printed the books and I've done all the things from >> Yeah. I saw I sold the book.

[00:43:02]>> Yeah.

[00:43:02]>> Then they tried to interdict me.

[00:43:04]>> Yeah.

[00:43:05]>> Went to court.

[00:43:07]>> They were represented by Tan Malu.

[00:43:09]>> Yeah.

[00:43:11]>> Uh yeah. Court >> they presented the matters >> and the case was struck off the role because of lack of agency >> and it came with cost.

[00:43:23]>> Yeah.

[00:43:26]After the leg of agency, >> they agency. normal process.

[00:43:30]>> They like the agency. It ended like that. Yeah.

[00:43:33]>> So that was how it happened. But you know >> because my intention was not to fight with them.

[00:43:38]>> Uh-uh.

[00:43:39]>> My intention was to write a book.

[00:43:41]>> That's why even when they said it, it was a struggle of the roll with coast. I did not pursue it.

[00:43:47]>> Yeah.

[00:43:48]>> Because it was not my intention of the day. Yeah.

[00:43:53]>> And at the end of the day, I had to defend myself also. Yeah.

[00:44:02]that has been written about him. Yeah.

[00:44:24]I'm saying Okay.

[00:45:00]I'm just looking at the market, but they've been translated and edited.

[00:45:05]anytime if I wish it >> part of it. Yes. You know, they've done everything to try to sabotage the the book.

[00:45:22]>> Yeah.

[00:45:22]>> So, it's pointless sometimes >> to invest your resources >> whereas one of these people, >> this is what they doing. Yeah.

[00:45:35][laughter] Okay.

[00:45:46]I've done so. Anytime I will do so.

[00:45:50]>> Anytime when I feel I've got enough resources, I'm going to do so.

[00:45:55]He didn't sell much.

[00:45:57]>> Yeah.

[00:45:57]>> Because the same people that I was trying to >> owner >> with a book >> sabotaged it.

[00:46:05]>> Yeah.

[00:46:06]>> There's evidence about it.

[00:46:07]>> Yeah.

[00:46:08]>> Facebook. I remember when we're launching it, they >> distance themselves or >> not distance. They wrote on Facebook >> and uh and said there's a book launch that has been there's a book that is being launched and I'm not part of it.

[00:46:22]>> You saw all those things. Yeah, >> you kind of >> there was even an interview on TV >> where they asked him about it and they said yeah after this controversy It's a matter of time.

[00:46:58]>> Yeah.

[00:46:58]>> And again, I believe that thing was a learning curve to me.

[00:47:01]>> Yeah.

[00:47:03]>> I know there are certain mistakes that have happened the way you approached it.

[00:47:07]You see, >> the biggest mistake that happened >> is to use a gentlemanly agreement because you know each other.

[00:47:14]>> Yeah.

[00:47:15]>> And you overlook certain steps, >> right?

[00:47:26]those kinds of statements >> give a sense of entitlement to the subject.

[00:47:32]>> Yeah.

[00:47:32]>> As if when I give him the permission it means that he cannot do if I say no it means that he cannot continue.

[00:47:38]>> Yeah.

[00:47:40]>> So it gives that kind of entertainment >> but I still have interest in writing about certain people >> who have contributed.

[00:47:48]Yeah.

[00:47:51]>> Given a chance, I can do research in that man.

[00:47:55]>> Because he has contributed immensely in the development of music.

[00:48:00]>> Yeah.

[00:48:01]>> Yeah. I'm so interested in Mach and look he has died.

[00:48:05]>> There's nothing much said about him.

[00:48:06]>> Yeah.

[00:48:07]>> Another person that I'm so interested in >> at the end of the day. Yeah, >> like I said, you see the genies are not the same.

[00:48:21]>> It was an eye opener to both of us.

[00:48:25]>> But >> there are people that I'm interested in like I'm interested.

[00:48:30]>> Yeah.

[00:48:31]>> GT is one person I'm also very much interested >> a living legend who I think we overlook.

[00:48:38]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When we see this kind of music that we have, >> the father of that is one underrated legend.

[00:48:52]>> Yeah.

[00:48:57]We've got one interesting the hands of >> I'm so interested in him.

[00:49:13]>> Yeah.

[00:49:13]>> Yeah.

[00:49:15]is the most controversial poison [laughter] to be approached with.

[00:49:29]Yeah. Maybe [snorts] Yeah, because it sold over thousand copies department of sports and culture.

[00:50:26]>> Not department, not sports and culture.

[00:50:28]Department of Education has been distributed in uh >> all libraries.

[00:50:34]>> Yeah.

[00:50:35]>> Brothers by Department of Education, but not in that was a bomb. and okay [laughter] Everything. Everything is matter.

[00:52:02]and many others.

[00:52:19]Moses, which institutions are allowed to confer academic titles?

[00:52:38]University College.

[00:52:54]Okay.

[00:52:57]Facebook.

[00:53:00]Okay. But before I delve into that honor >> okay >> it's interesting that you raised that one a situation before I respond to those questions >> there was a >> when when they impeached judge >> Yes. Yeah. [laughter] He was a judge. He made a certain statement [laughter] because he had studied >> and he had read for his PhD.

[00:53:41]>> Yeah.

[00:53:41]>> Completed his PhD.

[00:53:42]>> The leader of MKNot.

[00:53:55]>> Yeah.

[00:53:56]>> After you've done >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:03]Where's the directly immediately? Yeah.

[00:54:22]Because it's called an school.

[00:54:33]It's very interesting that you're raising that one.

[00:54:35]>> Yeah.

[00:54:43]The way it was done before, [laughter] you can't do that. Yeah.

[00:55:01]>> [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:55:11][laughter] Yes. That's that's first thing.

[00:55:18]>> Yeah.

[00:55:20]And interestingly, >> what are the titles?

[00:55:39]like I went to the school years later.

[00:55:50]Yeah.

[00:55:56]Yeah.

[00:55:59]Yeah.

[00:56:14]Right.

[00:56:19]Everything to oversee everything.

[00:56:38]So what I'm So that's that's first thing. Yeah.

[00:57:16]No.

[00:57:25]Everything according to what they do there any of the titles >> [clears throat] [laughter] >> You cannot take an academic title.

[00:58:00]So >> um >> I know there's a musician Ben >> H who was we who said on Facebook >> with a certificate written >> prof we come to that one also. Yeah, I want a situation [laughter] they should have honored him with one of the titles they would not agree.

[00:58:33]>> Yeah. Because there are certain steps that we offer >> and as much as I say this with I I say it uh taking consideration that we want to enlighten people.

[00:58:46]>> Yeah.

[00:58:47]>> It's not an attack to anyone.

[00:58:50]>> All right.

[00:59:02]multifor school.

[00:59:13]>> Yeah.

[00:59:14]>> The mission schools >> I worked at Roman Catholic school, right? That school is still under the oversight >> of the department of education. It's accredited by the education following the curriculum of >> Yeah.

[00:59:37]>> the department of education.

[00:59:39]>> Yeah.

[00:59:40]>> And who issues out certificate certificate the whole country.

[00:59:54]So >> and interestingly high school the highest qualification high school.

[01:00:09]>> Okay.

[01:00:10]>> We cannot go as far as a doctorate.

[01:00:12]>> Yeah.

[01:00:13]>> Because they are not mandated to do so.

[01:00:15]They not authorized to do so.

[01:00:16]>> Yeah. So >> you as who has got the authority >> only accredited >> institutions?

[01:00:24]>> Yes.

[01:00:25]>> Which are universities?

[01:00:26]>> Registered.

[01:00:27]>> Registered. Yeah.

[01:00:29]>> By the what? Department of higher education. Council for what? What is that? Cancelled for >> higher education.

[01:00:35]>> High education. Yes.

[01:00:36]>> Something like that.

[01:00:36]>> Yeah. Chair. Yeah.

[01:00:40]>> Accreditations.

[01:00:42]>> In South Africa we only have how many universities? 26. 26 publicities.

[01:00:47]We've got not a church. Yeah.

[01:01:15]The qualifications of another.

[01:01:27][snorts] >> Yeah. M and interestingly not so longish one of the biggest churches in South Africa if not the biggest in the world country That one is aligned with academia.

[01:02:12]>> Yeah.

[01:02:14]>> If we want that kind of a title, we go to an academic institution.

[01:02:18]>> Yeah.

[01:02:18]>> That is accredited.

[01:02:20]>> We nominate >> and a council seat where there's the regist of the university, everyone.

[01:02:35]What have you achieved? What have you contributed to society?

[01:02:39]>> How does your work align with our values >> as an institution like UNISA and roads university and other universities >> are pushing the the phenomenon this concept decolonization >> how does your work >> contribute to decolonization?

[01:03:01]>> Yeah.

[01:03:01]>> So the person who nominates >> Yeah. must motivate in what way does it align with the values of the universities and all those kind of things.

[01:03:23]So much musically certain process and you were saying who's this one Dr. Kumalo >> honorary of technology >> University of technology >> and we know the contribution of Dr. there was something I think something slipped my mind I wanted to say >> the case >> it's not unique to him alone >> or unique to Vatonga alone >> we have had some other people >> who were honored by bogas institutions also >> other than that we also had self-proclaimed doctors >> at one stage we had uh you see after 1994 >> m Uh there are a lot of politicians who emerged coming from exile.

[01:04:24]>> Yeah.

[01:04:24]>> One of them being Palo Jordan paraded around call himself Dr. Palan until someone said what is his qualification >> and only to find that did not have a qualification >> then he stopped using that title.

[01:04:42]>> Yeah.

[01:04:51]University may not have much information regarding that. But let me >> [laughter] >> Yeah.

[01:05:39]What happens?

[01:05:40]>> The honoraries, >> they can resend them. They can revoke them.

[01:05:49]I think >> I think he had his tit we may check them out but I know >> later on that case turned around but they had already revoked it >> but what I was mentioning >> the case of being honored by a church >> it's not unique to him alone >> in 2017 >> where the situation and his wife or anointing anointing oil >> only only to realize that >> that's a bogus institution and for that [laughter] matter >> only to find out that that was a bogus institution >> there's a certain church also Trinity Bible International Church >> and it was later found those institutions and like was he Leave it.

[01:07:18]>> What I can say one person >> twice. twice legitimately and officially >> another speaking person three times [clears throat] >> and >> but we had another situation few years ago >> by Dr. honoring [laughter] me.

[01:08:07]Yeah.

[01:08:09]Public >> [laughter] >> Okay.

[01:08:28]>> Yeah.

[01:08:28]>> This is what how these things happen.

[01:08:30]>> Yeah.

[01:08:33]>> Let's start it from here.

[01:08:43]Yeah.

[01:08:44]>> NF level 10 is doctorate. Level 9 is masters. Honest level eight, six degree.

[01:08:49]>> Six degree >> diploma in five.

[01:08:52]>> Yeah.

[01:08:52]>> Or six.

[01:08:53]>> It should be five.

[01:08:54]>> Yeah.

[01:08:54]>> Right.

[01:08:56]>> I think it's degree seven because eight honors 7 degree six. Yeah.

[01:09:02]certificademic doctor and an honorary because an academ and there's a difference between a medical doctor and an academic doctor.

[01:09:18]>> Exactly.

[01:09:18]>> A medical doctor is NQF level 8 >> is a professional degree that one.

[01:09:24]>> Exactly. So once you go further up to a PhD, you become an expert.

[01:09:34]>> You've got an expertise.

[01:09:35]>> Yes.

[01:09:36]>> So they they they don't honor you.

[01:09:39]>> You qualify for the last NQF level and you become a >> then >> an honorary is a recognition.

[01:09:47]>> Yeah.

[01:09:48]>> It's the same as an award.

[01:09:50]>> Yeah.

[01:10:01]You are what? You're a doctor.

[01:10:05]As a doctor.

[01:10:06]>> But when you go to the public, >> the public does not have an obligation.

[01:10:12]>> Yeah.

[01:10:12]>> To address you as what?

[01:10:13]>> As a doctor.

[01:10:14]>> As a doctor. Hey, doctor of administration, Ph.D.

[01:10:39]Hey, that one is a [laughter] big one. Um I don't have much information >> whether it was an academic or an honorary >> but if you say so >> and interesting with the professor doctor >> once you get a professor when once you [clears throat] become a professor it means that >> right so I don't know based on which grounds was a professor I what you said is that he was honored as a doctor.

[01:11:16]>> How did it come to a professorship but we know that sometimes unities honorary professors >> you have got a certain expertise >> in that field >> in that field then they can hire you with your expertise. They think you're at the level of what a professor you must actually meet the requirements of professor at that particular institution. But yes, the reason the difference being register right is whatotion promotion >> [laughter] >> It's painful. They said they get you get it.

[01:12:18]>> Okay.

[01:12:21]Professors at university for their expertise in certain field. Yes.

[01:12:24]>> They are just given that honorary to work there. But [clears throat] >> that thing is a promotion.

[01:12:33]>> Exactly. So this is that's why yeah to a certain extent. Yeah. So that's why these things um we treat them with caution because at the end of the day and we need to enlighten what the how these things happen. No, Dr. Yeah.

[01:13:19]Yeah.

[01:13:28]I I think >> [laughter] >> Uh, [laughter] I can't