Belle Tindall-Riley: Why Manifesting, Crystals, Tarot & Witchcraft reveal our craving for God

Added: 2026-05-28

[00:00:00]There's this dissatisfaction with a purely materialist worldview at the moment and that's such a shift.

[00:00:05]>> You kind of had the genesis of this book in a field in Glastonbury.

[00:00:09]>> If our search for something bigger than us, if we somehow shrink it back down to the size of us, we've totally got it wrong.

[00:00:17]>> There is a control aspect to to some of the manifesting and talking about the universe and so on. It is less vulnerable to manifest to the universe than it is to pray because there's an impersonal nature to that.

[00:00:30]>> Be wary of the dark side. Rome Williams recently in an interview expressed his belief in Satan. The >> spiritual realm has good and bad. I believe in God and I believe in the devil. This idea that women are looking at witches, the nut success that the film Wicked has had recently. What is it that that's a rejection of?

[00:00:47]>> Is it because we're scared of the language of God that we talk about the universe instead of God?

[00:01:17]Well, hello there and welcome to another episode of Re-enchanting. ing with me Justin Bryley. Special co-presenter today is Graeme Tomlin, Bishop Graeme Tomlin of Seen and Unseen. Welcome along, Graeme.

[00:01:30]>> Great to be here, Justin. And nice to be back on Reenchanting again.

[00:01:33]>> Indeed. It's been a little while, but our very special guest, quite unusually, turning up to Reenchanting for possibly only the 90th time is um is in fact Belle Tindle Riley. Um Belle, welcome to the show. I don't know if you've ever been here before, but to have you on.

[00:01:51]>> Tell me, what's the premise?

[00:01:53]>> What is this re-enchanting weird you're talking about?

[00:01:55]>> I know. I know. Well, let me let me tell you about this crazy show I've been involved in. Um, no. Uh, lovely. Belle, we'd make you joke of it, but uh, you are the special guest on re-enchanting today because you've written a book and it's basically re-enchanting in book form. That I'm just going to say it.

[00:02:11]It's re-enchanting in book form. Um, and it's it's it's a wonderful book that I've really enjoyed reading it. So >> it is a very very good book. I was telling Belle yesterday how much I really enjoyed reading it over the weekend and um so I'm I'm a fan already.

[00:02:24]I think it's just really well written. I think it's a fascinating thesis. So you so you know if you're listening to this, you know, I mean you can pause the the the recording at this moment to go out and buy it or whatever it is or do it in the in the big recording, but it really is very good.

[00:02:37]>> The the Sacred Ache is the name of the book. And uh I know you've been working on this for the last couple of years, Belle. Um uh before we jump into it um before we obviously have our signature question, you know, can't forget that on re-enchanting.

[00:02:51]>> Um just just for the benefit of those who may not, you know, have listened to you for the last nine seasons or so, a little bit of your background because you you are not just Bell Tindle Riley, you are Dr. Bell Tindle Riley. Um at some point, you spent a lot of time looking at one very specific thing in order to become a doctor, didn't you?

[00:03:11]Tell tell us about that.

[00:03:12]>> Yeah, so that's that's absolutely true.

[00:03:15]I spent 4 years or so, maybe a little longer than that, in an absolute academic bubble, like as hidden as anyone could be, in utter obscurity in rural in rural West Wales. Um, doing a doctorate. Yeah. So, I have a doctorate in biblical studies, more specifically the Gospel of John. More specifically than that, the fourth chapter of the Gospel of John. Um, which some people think that that's wild that I would spend four years um just really drilling into sort of one scene in one book of the Bible, but um honestly I needed like another four straight after it just wasn't enough to even scratch the surface. So yeah, that's me. I do actually have I maybe I bring it up every now and again, particularly when we're talking to ENT, right? I just can't help it myself.

[00:04:05]>> The New Testament credentials come out when when you're in that kind of company. Oh, yeah. I He's honestly He's like my Beyonce. I can't help but kind of go full Bible geeking with his presence.

[00:04:18]>> You know, posters on your wall, do you?

[00:04:19]>> I That would be a step too far.

[00:04:22]>> I'm glad.

[00:04:23]>> No, I don't think he's I don't think she's got a pin up event right on the bedroom wall.

[00:04:27]>> Does such thing exist? If it does, >> there's probably a market out there for it, frankly. I'm sure there is. Um, but obviously you've spent the last three or three to four years actually more in journalistic mode and that's that takes you everywhere and talking about everything, doesn't it? So, is was it a kind of a weird transition going from like >> nailing down on one particular chapter in a few verses of John's gospel to like, oh, let's just talk about everything that exists now.

[00:04:53]>> Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, yes, it was also a massive relief as well.

[00:04:59]It was like, "Oh yeah, there is a world outside my window. Let's talk about that." Um, yeah, absolutely. And as I probably I don't know I make no secret of this and specifically if you read the book I really make no secret of this but when I was in my kind of academic bubble I really thought anything that I ever say or write or think will be for Christians and Christians only because I am terrible um have been terrible at speaking about my faith about my spiritual tradition to those who aren't within it. Um, so that's really hilarious when you think about what I do now. When we think about re-enchanting, when we think about everything I've written for seen and unseen and other places, when I think about this book, like, so I think that's been the biggest transition is is changing my conversation partner really has been vulnerable and terrifying, but also quite weirdly intoxicating. I I absolutely love it now and I'm still as terrified as ever. But uh it's I think that's been the major shift really is that outwardlookingness.

[00:06:04]>> And did you have to find a new voice as well? Because I guess when you're writing academic papers and books and you know a little bit about that you have to write in a particular way. You have to make sure all possible arguments against your thesis is are kind of warded off to begin with. So, you know, you really got a perfect piece and you so you can't do that in journalistic writing and you know, you know, you've written a chapter for a book that I've edited which is coming up which is much more academic.

[00:06:32]>> This is kind of more on the scene and unseen kind of popular journalistic style appealing to a wider audience. Did you did you have to find a new voice do you think when you started writing in this different way and how did you do that?

[00:06:43]>> Yeah. Gosh, yes. The short answer is yes. You're right. When you're writing academically, um, you really want something to be bulletproof before you're willing to put it out into the world, like just absolutely watertight.

[00:06:55]And you are kind of preempting anyone disagreeing with you and then writing your defense into your offense so that it's all like, come at me. I, you know, I have every angle covered here and only then will I put it in the world. And you're absolutely right. I think writing the types of things I've been writing for the past three years, that is not an option. I have to put something out and be aware that it's not bulletproof. Um that it's not watertight, that it invites discussion, that it's not designed to be the final weird on something, but in many cases it's designed to be the first weird on something and the beginning of a conversation, not the shutdown of it.

[00:07:30]That is all brand new skill um for me.

[00:07:33]And also, yeah, that that idea of finding my voice um because again, I think in much academic writing, you you're taught to hide your voice in a way. It's not completely like impersonal an academic piece of writing, but they don't want a huge amount of you in there because you're really the least important part of anything you're submitting. And so, um, in this book, and actually in many of the pieces I've written, in many of the Re-enchanting episodes actually, I've actively decided to put quite a lot of myself in these things um, >> in hopefully quite a vulnerable kind of way. So that absolutely finding my own voice and being okay with with it being quite overtly out there is yeah quite >> I guess with academic writing you're supposed to be objective you're supposed to be kind of you know just take take yourself out of it your own personal subjectivity and pray something that's logically watertight and out there whereas I guess what you're writing is something much more >> intuitive and personal and subjective um which is again a different way of doing things different way of knowing things different way sort of learning and presenting yourself in the world.

[00:08:48]>> Yeah, absolutely. I know. I think I say maybe in every article I ever write, certainly in every chapter of this book, I'll say things like I have a hunch. My inkling is I get the sense that I feel um and that I mean if I sub if I sent this book back to my PhD supervisor, my gosh, she'd be like, where what are you doing? Um, so you're right. It's a totally different way of writing. And um, >> is it a bit more um, you know, because you you talk about your love of Ian McGillchrist in in the in the book The Secret. Um, is it a little bit more rightrain bit more intuitional? Not so much the rationalistic leftrain defense was yours.

[00:09:28]>> I I that's a lovely way to put it, Justin. And that's my defense always is listen, put the left brain down for a second. Meet me here. Um yeah, I try I try >> in a way that that leads us nicely into uh the signature question which you know all the listeners and viewers have been waiting with baited breath for >> because we obviously always you and I ask every single episode of this show >> what our guest is been reading recently.

[00:09:56]So, um, so, so tell us, Belle, what's what's been on your nightstand? And, uh, yeah, I'd love to hear sort of what, you know, when you've had to then write a book, how much of all of that reading because you always, I've always felt whenever we've asked our guests this question over the years, Belle, you are much more likely to have actually heard of or read the books than I ever am. So, I just know you're massively more well read than I ever am. So, but that must bring an extra pressure when you can't finally come to write your own book sort of thing. Hey, what what are you reading at the moment and and tell us yeah how how how all those that reading has fed into your own book.

[00:10:32]>> Yeah. Well, as is tradition on this show and in my own life, I do not have one answer. I have two answers for you.

[00:10:38]>> Good.

[00:10:39]>> Do you think Justin anyone has come to this question and been like this is the one book?

[00:10:44]>> I can't recall a single episode where there was only one book mentioned. True.

[00:10:48]>> I don't think that's happened. So, in tradition um I'm reading two things. I'm reading Paul Kings North's Against the Machine and I'm finally reading that.

[00:10:55]That has been on my bedside table for months and I just haven't quite wked up the bravery to read it until now. I think because I knew it was going to be uh I mean Ian McGill writes on the back, it is a chilling read. You know, it's one of those books that I knew once I read it, I can't unread it. And Paul um has quite an urgent message that he gives and he worries about the world basically. And so you're entering into that worry when you read this book. But it's it's the most wonderful book. He's the most phenomenal writer. Um so I'm reading that and then maybe as somewhat of an antidote to that I'm also reading uh Liza Manelli's autobiography.

[00:11:39]>> Oh well you know Liza Manelli and Paul Paul Kings North Fellows. Exactly. Well, I quite like it because I feel like those two together do sort of sum up my personality a little bit. Um, so it's called Kids, Wait till You hear This um I mean, as you can imagine, I mean, she's Liza Manelli, like she's had the most bizarre life. Um, obviously the daughter of Judy Garland. And so, it's a look at her life, quite an unflinching look at her life, but also it's um a kind of a glimpse into a world that doesn't really exist anymore. and sort of this old Hollywood and you find yourself being both kind of sad and nostalgic for this world that doesn't exist but also utterly relieved that this world doesn't exist anymore. Um, so those are the two things I'm reading at the moment. And like I say, if that if those two together don't sum up my personality, I don't really know >> what does. Um, >> we've got the high and the low in there.

[00:12:34]The high brow and the low brow. Um, >> and and what about the way that that all that reading, you know, do do you feel the pressure when you come to write your own book? Because >> like like Graeme, I I sensed a really a personal conversational tone to to the way you write and and I wonder if that >> that's just you. Maybe that maybe that's just you can't write any other way. I don't know what what what would you say?

[00:12:55]>> Do you know what I think that has become me? I think as Graeme mentioned, I tried to write an academic >> um chapter for a book that he is releasing and I did do it but I definitely found that that now is the foreign language to me that now took far more work. I think I can't help but write as I speak now. That's sort of what I've leed to do and it's very much conversational. I can't really write in any other way than as if the person I'm writing for is sat before me and we're having a coffee. That's >> just the only way I really feel comfortable telling anyone what I think or what I think they should think. I I can't do that in a non-personable way anymore.

[00:13:36]>> It did it did make me feel like I was kind of having just like a really lengthy version of re-enchanting with you where I we're just getting down to chat and that was really nice. He was like, "Oh, this just feels really familiar." Like I'm just chatting away with Belle while reading this book. It's really nice.

[00:13:50]>> And you are very um you're very open about yourself in the book. In fact, there's a a section, I think, in the in the very first introduction or the >> um what you call Yeah. the introduction where you kind of almost lay out yourself and say, "Look, you know, I want to tell you about who I am." And you say, you know, I did a doctor in biblical studies. I'm Gen Zed. Gen geriatric Gen Zed, Gen Z.

[00:14:12]>> Elizabeth Oldfield called me that. So thank you. That's where it came from.

[00:14:15]Yeah. I'm not very brave. I did my cycling proficiency course without riding a bike. I'm Welsh, etc. You know, so so we kind of get to know you on the almost the very first pages. So as we go into it, which again, which again is so opposite to the kind of academic mode of writing where you really do have to hide >> any sort of subjectivity, any personality. I suppose what what struck me about it was that, you know, that that personal nature, as Justin was saying, you know, it's like having a conversation with with you as opposed to presenting some sort of objective um kind of logical rational case for Christianity. It's more of a kind of um you know there's a definite like a sort of I mean whether it's as carefully thought out as this but the sort of seems to me that the approach of the book is actually precisely presenting Christian faith through the lens of yourself a person a real life flesh and blood >> person um and I tend to think it's more powerful for the result of that but was that a conscious thing for you to do that that that there's something I've heard you sometimes talk about you know an embodied kind of witness um that witness has to be somehow filtered through yourself, your personality, and that a kind of disembodied witness doesn't really work very well. Is that right?

[00:15:27]>> Yeah, I think that is right. I think right from the beginning, um right when I was just toying with this idea of a book, um you know, as I was wandering through Glastonbury Music Festival, maybe we'll talk about that in a bit. um even right there in the beginnings. I think what I wanted this book to do its aims really was to sort of change the structures of plausibility. I think um when it comes to Christianity and what I mean by that is I do think things have shifted now but certainly when I was a child teenager in my early 20ies um >> there was no it was stony ground. you know, being a Christian was the weirdest, most obscure and nonsensical thing you could possibly be. Um, nothing about the way I live my life made sense to the people who didn't live it that way. And so, I think what I really wanted to do was take a certain group of people, this group of people that are would call themselves spiritual but not religious and are actively um engaging in spiritual practices that aren't attached to a specific religion.

[00:16:34]And I wanted to change the structure of plausibility for those people. Um, and I think the best way to do that is to kind of put yourself on the table, make yourself a case study really. And um, to so that these people reading this book hopefully because I've tried to be as honest as possible and it was quite uncomfortable at times. And you're right at the beginning, I think I'm really open and and in that I say, "Listen, you're about to have my voice in your head for the next >> however many days, weeks, months, years, you know." Um, and so I think it's only right that you know what voice you're inviting into your into like the deepest parts of you because I speak to some deep parts of my readers like their longings and their greatest fears and their existential neediness. like I touch on it all and I just felt like I needed to earn that right really by being as vulnerable myself as I was hoping they would be as my conversation partner. Um, but you're right. I think I think the way I think this whole book really is just an invitation to come and see. I think that's the language I've been using and I steal that from John 4.

[00:17:43]So, it's pulling my past life into my present one. It's because what I do is I say I have every longing that you have.

[00:17:49]I have every desire that you have, every craving, every fear that you have. Like I believe we were designed with them. So I'm not immune to them, nor is any other Christian who exists, past, present, future. So come and see where I go with those longings, with those cravings, with those fears. And then that's just like an opportunity again and again and again and again in as embodied a way as possible to point to myself in order to point through myself um to ultimately to to Jesus and to this the the story that I breathe in and out. Um so yeah, it was it was both intentional right from the start but also just really developed and became a non-negotiable for me as I was writing this book. Yeah, that I mean it really reminds me Belle of something um I mean it wouldn't be a wouldn't be me on reenchanting without mentioning Pascal but you know um one of the things Pascal says says is this you know is it is the heart that knows God not the reason >> um and that's not because he doesn't believe in reason but he believes that you know actually the way we access God which is a different kind of being than the other things we access within the world is through some deep personal instinct about sort of faith that's where faith faith comes from which is why I think when we're talking about God actually the kind of approach you've taken which is a much more subjective personal embodied approach actually is kind of appropriate to the to the object of what you're trying to talk about because you're talking about God you're not talking about physics you're not talking about um you know mathematics or engineering you're talking about God and you can only do that in a personal way not a not an objective way so I I think I think it works I think it works really really well >> oh thanks yeah it's that what does Pascal says the heartest reasons that reason knows nothing of >> exactly >> there's that. Yeah, it's one of the best phrases >> that could embody, you know, re-enchanting as well, couldn't it? You know, it's all about that search for >> the transcendent beyond just just reason. But um yes, >> you you kind of had the genesis, I think, for this book uh the idea in a field in Glastonbury about two years ago, Bel, tell us about the healing field and and how that made you think about this this this sacred ache as you call it.

[00:19:57]>> Yes. Yeah. All the best ideas I think happen in a field somewhere, don't they?

[00:20:03]Yeah. So, the book began and begins because it's it's the first page is how I open the book um at Glastenbury Music Festival. So, I went for the first time in 2024 and I have become a cliche because I do mention it an inappropriate amount, but there we go. Um yeah, and I I mean the whole thing took me by surprise really. it. The whole thing was definitely deeper, more full of meaning, more achy, you know, if I'm to use my own phrase, than I was expecting it to be. Um, people really just pausing the rhythm of their lives um to go in search of awe and wonder and transcendence and escape in many ways. And so all of it took me by surprise really. But you're right, there's this one section of the site which is affectionately called the healing field. It's really large. It's really big. This isn't a small section of the festival. And um I wandered through that field and every spiritual experience, spiritual practice that you could possibly imagine is on offer in that field. Like uh stools and tents that just offer everything and anything that you would call experiential or mystical or spiritual like it's there for people. And that field is rammed. It is so full. It's so busy. And when you're reminding yourself that like Shaniah Twain is playing on the pyramid stage and yet this field is teeming with people. I was just so struck by it. Um struck by the fact that I couldn't get anywhere near most of the tents. I couldn't get anywhere near most of the stalls. Like there were cues and people just willing to wait there for hours.

[00:21:48]And that's really, you're right, that's really where this book was born because I looked at these people and I think I grew up in a in a Christian household in a Christian context and we've always been incredibly near of any kind of spirituality that sort of we can't comfortably stamp the word Christian on.

[00:22:06]Excuse me. And I understand that and we can talk about that maybe. I understand that and I don't think that's wholly wrong. But I was looking at these people and I was like, I just feel like it would be inappropriate to dismiss you in this moment or to roll my eyes at the longings that have brought you here.

[00:22:21]Like, >> you know, I I believe we are spiritual beings living in a spiritual world created by a god for him. You know, to borrow um a quote by St. Augustine where he says, "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they find they rest in you." And so I just in that moment started to look around that field and just be like, "Oh, I there's a lot of restlessness here."

[00:22:45]>> Yeah. It reminds me a bit of, you know, Paul in in Athens in Acts 17, you know, walking through the city, so many idols to foreign gods. And, you know, as a devout Jew, you know, you know, they kind of offended him at one level, but when he actually goes and speaks to the the Stoics and philosophers, he says, "I see you're very religious in every way."

[00:23:01]He doesn't sort of say, "How darraable, you know, he doesn't rail against them in that way."

[00:23:06]>> Absolutely. I think you would have to stand in Glastonbury for like 30 seconds before you could confidently scream like people of Glastonbury. I can see that in every way. You're a religious bunch.

[00:23:17]Like it's just so obvious to me. Yeah.

[00:23:19]And I can remember talking to you bel just I think after you came back from that class revisit and you know you were telling me a little bit about this >> the healing field or whatever it's called but I think I think you also said you know correct me if I'm wrong but that there was a kind of Christian bit of the Glastonbury which was in a different field um and there was a kind of tent or something but there weren't that many cues going to that bit and um and somehow it sort of felt a very different thing that that that and I remember you were reflecting on how Christian faith felt like something so sort of different, alien, not really answering the the the the yearnings of this this group of people. And um and you kind of wonder, I mean, maybe the maybe the there should have been a Christian tent in the in the field there. Maybe that's a little bit closer to what Paul would have had um because he was in a context where Christian faith was one of many different spiritual practices in the world and he had to uh you know to kind of promote it to kind of make a case for it to kind of put it forward um within the context of a whole range of other options rather than some sort of specialist field over there in the corner. Um was that right?

[00:24:24]Am I recollecting that right?

[00:24:27]>> You are recollecting that right. Yeah.

[00:24:29]And I should say upfront that I do not know who runs the church in Glastonbury Festival or how they decided to be where they are. It may be that they asked to be in the healing field and and weren't allowed. So I just want to put that caveat out there. But yes, you're right.

[00:24:43]I the the church which is in in a marquee on the other side of the festival up a hill really hard to get to. Um as far as I can tell is not drawing the same crowds. And you're right. I remember coming home and being like the church should be in the middle of the healing field. Right there in the middle of the healing field, you know, and I was quite like stubborn about it.

[00:25:06]And in a way, I still am. You're absolutely right. I think I mean this is why I wrote the book, right? Because people were going to the healing fields and they went trapesing up the hill to go to the church. And so somewhere along the way, Christianity has stopped being seen as something that can satisfy their most sort of mystical um spiritual longings. It's stopped being seen as a religion that's in any way experiential or in any way can meet them where they're at. And I lament that because as a Christian, I just know that that's so far from from the truth. Um and so yeah, you're right. In a way, this book is me putting the church in the healing field and kind of for better or for worse, just starting a conversation in that way. Um because yeah, it's I think that's where we need to be or some of us at least.

[00:25:55]>> Yeah. And you you'd probably find manifestations in that healing field of of all of the seven different areas of spirituality that you cover in this book. I mean, just to take us through them, you talk about the the modern interest in the quote unquote the universe as a sort of placeholder almost for God in in a lot of people's minds.

[00:26:14]Um, uh, you you talk about, you know, Reiki and healing, that kind of thing, manifesting as well, witchcraft, um, the, uh, psychics, intuition, tarot, meditation, astrology and crystals, nature worship. So, huge, huge range of things. And there's more that you could have included, I'm sure, even beyond beyond just those things. I mean the the one that I thought you probably would have loved to include but probably just didn't have space for in this book is psychedelics as well. you know, there's a huge kind of, you know, interest and area in in that. But but um I mean it was fascinating you start with the universe because as I say this pops up a lot, doesn't it? you know, and you kind of sheepishly admit to to watching Love Island occasionally in the book Bell and but for but it's obviously purely for research purposes and and this this was um and just the fact that phrases like oh the you know the universe you know saw that coming or the universe told me to do that or whatever.

[00:27:10]>> Yeah. Tell tell talk about sort of how you've seen in popular culture this way in which people talk about some kind of ultimate transcendent but they've kind of almost Yeah. Is it because we're scared of the language of God that we've kind of we talk about the universe instead of God?

[00:27:25]>> Yeah. It's a really interesting one.

[00:27:27]You're right. Like people thank the universe, pray to the universe, kind of console themselves with the fact that the universe has got them. I call it the capital U universe. Um because of course the the lowercase U universe exists and is a wholly different thing and I I kind of tease that out and but there's just this dissatisfaction I think. Um and Justin you've spoken about this so much.

[00:27:50]There's this dissatisfaction with a purely materialist worldview at the moment. I'm really sensing that and that's such a shift. Um and I don't want to like overexlain that. It's just something I'm noticing this just dissatisfaction with, you know, what we constantly call a disenchanted world.

[00:28:07]Like uh uh Charles Taylor, he talks about the imminent frame, doesn't he?

[00:28:11]This idea that all that we see is all that there is. Like the world's got a lid on it and >> and and that's all that there is. And there's just I'm just I've been seeing that recede kind of losing ground recently.

[00:28:25]>> But there's one thing being disenchanted with disenchantment, right? There's one thing wanting there to be more to reality than what our five senses can tell us.

[00:28:37]There's one thing kind of not finding the Richard Dawkins atheism attractive anymore. It's a whole other thing signing up wholesale to a religious tradition. And so there is this interesting middle ground where people will talk about um you know Finn Cotton the the broadcaster turn sort of like wellness guru um I bring her book up a lot because it's fascinating. She just talks about the bigger than me >> the bigger than me like >> the universe is probably the most common one or just energy. People talk about energy or the divine or the transcendent or the source is quite a common one as well. um because there is this reluctance to kind of put a story around this higher power or to put kind of a framework around it. And I understand that because if you keep it mysterious and if you keep it ambiguous, there's almost like a guardedness in that.

[00:29:36]There's like a safety in that. There's like a >> it's not that vulnerable to do that because you think, well, we can't know anything about this higher power anyway.

[00:29:47]And >> and is it is it also that that kind of language gives us a certain degree of control over it because it's so inspecific? It's so impersonal. It's so >> vague. We can sort of keep it at you know we can do it on our terms if you like. we can kind of access these spiritual moments and you know sort of feelings in a field in Glastonbury but it doesn't really make too many demands upon us and that's quite comforting in a in a kind of way and and you know I guess the other thing that interests me about that whole move is it's >> you know the idea of the universe or the bigger than us or whatever it might be >> it's all kind it's impersonal it's not it's not not a person whereas I guess when Christians talk about >> God we talk about God in personal terms um both the father, the son, the holy spirit and so on >> and um and so that that seems to be something that's that's going on there.

[00:30:39]Um whereas I guess you know what you're you're talking about is engaging with yes with that beyond spiritual transcendent reality.

[00:30:47]>> Uh but that reality has a has a face has a name >> um as opposed to just a rather kind of vague thing that we can somehow control in some way. Is is that right that it's part about part about us keeping in control of it having it on on on our terms? I think there's certainly an element of it because yes, spiritual openness seems to be on the rise, but that doesn't mean that other things that are so baked into us are have left us.

[00:31:10]So things like individualism, things like consumerism, you know, those are still deeply deeply laced within who we are. And so it's pretty inevitable that those things will be baked into any type of spirituality that we find ourselves seeking out. And so like you're right if you there's an element where we still want to be able to control things. We still want it to be just between us and the universe without any demands of kind of any kind of community lodged on to lodged onto us. And also and I say this again and again and again in the book like it is less vulnerable to manifest to the universe for example to work within the laws of attraction to manifest your dreams than it is to pray.

[00:31:55]Because you're right with because there's an impersonal nature to that.

[00:31:59]Whereas if what you're saying is I believe that there is a God and that God is sentient and has wills and thoughts and might say yes to some things and no to others that's really vulnerable and that requires an extra element of wrestling I think and that requires um us to really put ourselves out there I think in a way that kind of abstract spirituality doesn't. And I remember we did an episode of Re-enchanting with Ashley Landy. Um, and again, Justin, you mentioned psychedelics. I think I could do a whole second book just on that, but people like Ashley have done it better, so I won't. And I remember asking her like, don't you find Christianity quite claustrophobic? Because, you know, when you're used to saying things like all is all and there is no limit to anything and we can't know anything and the universe is huge and we just don't know.

[00:32:52]to then come to an actual religious story and tie yourself to it. I was like, "Don't you find that claustrophobic?" And it's because I'd just written this book and I was genuinely wondering and I asked the same of Nick Mulvy and they were like, "No, the confines are a relief.

[00:33:07]>> The boundaries are a relief." You know, like there's rest in the fact that I know who I'm talking to and it's not just this all is all like, >> you know, we can't know anything personally. Um, so I think that was really interesting for me.

[00:33:23]>> I I wanted to chime in as well on what what Greg was saying there and and you picked up Belle that that there is a kind of almost control aspect to to some of the this manifesting and talking about the universe and so on. Um, and and it is quite consumeristic in that sense. You know, it's about what could it do for me and and so on. Um but then again you know even with prayer sometimes in some Christian traditions it shouldn't be treated that way but it can be we can sometimes approach prayer as a kind of I if I do this and say the right words then I can control the outcomes and God sort of has to do what I say if I you know so it's easy for you know it's easy to see why people stumble into this idea that this is this is what it means to communicate uh with with God that that it's some kind of control mechanism right so how how how do you kind of contrast past prayer with this kind of manifesting and that and that that kind of stuff.

[00:34:15]>> Yeah. I mean, this has been the joy of writing this book. I've been a Christian my whole life and so things I've just taken for granted all of a sudden I have to communicate, you know, in like this really sort of freeing back to basics way. And so I've really had to think, okay, what is the difference between manifesting and prayer? Other than the fact that manifesting like it's I what I say in the book is manifesting is this culmination of these two deep desires we have. A to be in control of our own circumstances and B desperately to not be in control of our own circumstances.

[00:34:48]And manifesting meets us at the perfect intersection of those two deep deep desires. Um, and so prayer then what I say is I mean it's kind of like in a way goes without saying but prayer is is relationship. There's nothing in the practice of manifesting your dreams that is about building a relationship between you and whatever you think is on the other side of your manifestation right between you and let's let's keep calling it the universe or the source. There's nothing about building a trust or a reliance or feeling loved or held or cared for. There's nothing about learning the character or the nature of the universe or feeling like your character and nature are understood and cherished. Like there's no relationship building there. It's not centered on this deep personal love in that way. And of course prayer is. So we pray and I say like I'm really open in the book.

[00:35:46]I'm like, listen, I pray and sometimes God says yes to the things I ask him for and sometimes he says no. Sometimes that's a not now. Sometimes that's a not never. That's a not ever.

[00:35:56]>> And so there's this deep vulnerability in there. But I I I say like, but never ever ever have I come out of a no assuming that it's because I'm not worthy of a yes or because I didn't pray hard enough or I got the formula wrong or just the love wasn't there or, you know, that it was somehow my fault or anything like that. It's vulnerable because you're coming to a someone, not a something. It's deeply rooted in relationship. And if relationship is stripped out, it's not really pretty.

[00:36:30]>> Um, so that's how I've kind of teased it out. I think >> I mean, what what's fascinating to me is that, you know, you go on to obviously talk about a number of other really interesting things that are popping up increasingly in social media circles and elsewhere.

[00:36:43]>> Um, this this sacred egg coming out in things like witchcraft. Uh, so tell us a little bit about kind of what you've noticed happening in those spaces. And it's another in many I think another kind of way of trying to control nature and your circumstances and that kind of thing, isn't it? But perhaps in a you know maybe keying into sort of I I guess more arguably pagan practices and and things things like that. And again where where for you are what's this telling us about about the ache that's that's behind that activity? So, um, yes, the chapter on witchcraft, I call it the female Roman Empire, which, um, is because I eaves dropped on a conversation between two young women when I was at the cinema. And they, as they were walking out of the cinema, they just said, "I think part of being a woman is that you think about witches at least once a day." And yeah, and this other woman was like, "Absolutely. I think about them all the time. Like, I just think it's part of who we are is to relate to witches." And uh and then the other lady said, "Yeah, and part of being a man is being scared of witches."

[00:37:43]You know, like there was like this deep.

[00:37:45]And so that's really where that chapter started for me. And what I specifically write about is um witches, the term witch um as some kind of spiritual feminist identity. That's really what I hone in on there because yes, witchcraft is commonly associated with religious labels such as wicker and paganism, druids, things like that. That has always been the case, is still the case, is increasingly the case. But what I found fascinating is this idea that women are looking at witches, be they be they fictional, >> you know, thinking about the nut success that the film Wicked has had recently or actually a renewed fascination with the witch hunts of the 17th century or, you know, there's just this growing fascination. Witch talk is a thing now.

[00:38:36]Um, romantic. So that's fantasy romance is one of the top uh categories in literature at the moment. It's just everywhere and it's being driven by women. And so what I really tried to dig into is like like why what is it that that's a rejection of and what is it that that's a real adopting of? And so I really dig into that and again I dig into this idea that for that women and I don't like quite rightly in some cases with with all good reason think of Christianity as something that's not for them because they are women and so they have this spiritual angst. They want some kind of spiritual dimension to their life and Christianity they just rule it out offhand because it's a a quote unquote man's religion. And so that's why, you know, that's why witchcraft is so much more appealing.

[00:39:29]Um, and I totally understand that. I understand that. But I, as a Christian, don't think about witches so much. So I was like, well, maybe it's that. It's this sense of >> I, as a woman, want to be celebrated for who I am as a woman. I don't want my characteristics to be villainized. I want to feel connected to my body and to the earth in a way that feels more quote unquote feminine.

[00:39:54]um whatever that means to people and they just don't find that in Christianity and so I just do my I do my darnest to sort of explain again really vulnerably I think I hope I fear um why I as a woman am stubbornly also Christian >> and refuse to be refuse to not be >> do I mean it's it's a really fascinating chapter the one on paganism but I that that raised the question for me which I guess many of the other two uh chapters did as well as to whether >> whether we are seeing a kind of repaganizing of our of our culture. It's something that a number of sort of figures in public life have mused on recently. I think Louise Perry wrote about it. Are we seeing a repaganizing of society? Naomi Wolf did something similar. Um you see it coming up in a number of different places. And I've always had this sort of sense that there are really only two deep religious traditions in in Europe. Um, you know, one is Christianity, the other is paganism. You know, that that yes, others have come and gone a little bit.

[00:40:58]You know, you've got >> Islam had a sort of presence in Spain in the kind of Middle Ages, but it's relatively short term compared to the sort of deep roots of paganism and Christianity. Um, and in there's an argument there that paganism never quite went away even during the years of Christendom. all those sort of practices under the surface were all bubbling away, never quite sort of disappeared.

[00:41:21]Uh do you subscribe to that thesis? Are we seeing a kind of rep as Christianity retreats? Um the only alternative really is paganism to come back into the to the world. Are we back to where the early church was as one option within a kind of broad pantheon of different gods or are we seeing something different going on here? just interested especially with your background in New Testament studies and having studied a little bit about the context of Jesus. How do you read that >> narrative?

[00:41:50]>> It's a great question. I the headline would be that I think I agree with the likes of Louise Perry who talks about the repaganization of our society. This idea that we're so post-Christian, we're almost pre-Christian again. Like we're coming full circle and isn't that just the story of human history in general?

[00:42:08]Um yes. So I would say as you say as a New Testament person I think we are getting a bit first century again I do I think I think for the past few decades we've been looking for one dominant story and one dominant story has kind of ruled the roost at any given time. You could argue that for a while that was Christianity.

[00:42:30]Um you can argue that for the past few decades that's been new atheism, materialism, all of that kind of thing.

[00:42:36]And I I I wonder now if if we're like, "Okay, well, what's the next big story going to be? What's the next dominant story about to be?" And I wonder, and this is really me just in the realm of hunches and speculation, I wonder if because we're kind of in this kind of democratized everything decentralized, um, sort of everyone in their own silos a little bit. I wonder actually if that's not quite going to be the case. If what we're going to see is a smorgus board of spiritual options and everybody kind of picking and choosing and piecing things together. I think it was um Andrew Olton who says like if the country of Venezuela was one day sort of obliterated for whatever reason, what you wouldn't get is every Venezuelan person migrating to one country. You'd get them dispersing in all kinds of directions. And so I think if new atheism, secularism, all of that is being obliterated uh at least in certain pockets of the cultural landscape, what we're not going to see is everyone flock in one direction. What we're going to see is them dispersed to lots of different options. That's certainly what I'm seeing. And so all of that to say that yes, I think that is what's happening.

[00:43:53]And I also think that when it comes specifically to people sort of wanting to and like I want to caveat this. It's not that everyone is like going full fat pagan. I don't think that I mean they the numbers are rising but they're still relatively small, right? They're relatively small.

[00:44:12]>> But what we are seeing is people just wanting little little bits of it, little crumbs of it.

[00:44:18]>> Yeah. And maybe what we're seeing is is a kind of repaganizing but a sort of being filtered through a much more modern sensibility which is both consumerist and >> individualist individualist. So it's not, you know, I want to join a cult of of, you know, worshippers of this particular god, but I want my own distinct version of it. And also that's being delivered on a plate for me by the algorithm of social media, which which will kind of commercialize and commoditize >> certain practices like the ones you write about in your book and that present it to us so we can just pick it off the shelf and use it. It's it for me it's like going going for nature worship in the woods but going for a Starbucks afterwards because you know you want you want your latte alongside your um I I mean thinking of that one person who who features quite prominent in the book is of course Paul Kings North >> and I love I love the fact that that Paul both endorses the book and is a significant character in the book and is kind of one of the very first people we spoke to actually here on re-enchanting and kind of really defined to some extent. I think his story itself defines that that ache that sacred ache. He's he you know that comes through so clearly doesn't it in his own story. Tell us about that because in a way you know he he did that pagan journey you know himself in in one way or another. Um and you know people can go back to season one to hear the full story but tell us Belle sort of how his story kind of resonated through through what you were writing as well.

[00:45:40]>> Yeah gosh I mean I should say up front that this book wouldn't exist if Reenchanting didn't. I think I say that in the acknowledgements like I quote Martin Shaw, I quote Kate Bowler. You're right. Paul Kings North is like basically the the lynch pin of of one of my chapters. So I just Yeah, this book wouldn't exist without the many many conversations we've had with the most phenomenal people just reminding me again and again in their own ways that we are desperate to take the lid off our disenchanted world. Um, so yes, Paul Kings North, he um, yeah, you can go and listen to his story because he'll tell it so much better than I can. I believe he was in season one.

[00:46:17]>> Um, but he was pretty like, well, I think he would call it maybe agnostic because he always thought there was something sacred about the world, but definitely didn't massively subscribe to any kind of religion or worldview that had like a god at the center. But he sort of dabbled in Buddhism a little bit. Then he found himself kind of wanting to worship something and Buddhism doesn't really give you that option. So he kind of stopped off at at Wicker for a while and then very reluctantly and he reminds me of CS Lewis in this way. Very reluctantly found himself a Christian and I think his precise words weirds to us Justin we're oh maybe I'm a Christian. Damn it.

[00:46:57]Damn it. Like a real real sort of like >> most reluctant convert. Yes.

[00:47:03]>> Exactly. He could rival he could rival CS Lewis in that way, couldn't he? Um, but I I I put his story in the book in in quite big chunks really, because you're right. I think he epitomizes exactly what we're talking about, which is we're seeing kind of the state of things and we're dissatisfied with them.

[00:47:22]We're dissatisfied with the way our world feels and looks and sounds and is.

[00:47:26]And so what we start thinking maybe is like a political issue. We quickly realize it's deeper than that. And then what we think maybe is kind of like a social issue, we think, "Oh, it kind of is, but it's deeper than that." And and we go further and further and further and our dissatisfaction just like stubbornly stays and stays and stays and stays until all of a sudden in our own ways we think, "Maybe this is a spiritual thing. Maybe all of this is a spiritual thing. Maybe what I want is to find spiritual answers to spiritual questions. Maybe these longings I have are spiritual." And I think that's where many people are finding themselves. I think that's where Paul found himself.

[00:48:06]That's that's why he decided he needed a spiritual path to kind of weave him through some of the things that were scaring him about the world. He needed a spiritual path to help him to kind of guide him through the landscapes of everything he was thinking and feeling.

[00:48:20]And I don't think that's a rare story.

[00:48:24]Personally, I'm seeing that again and again that people think these old these old things, these old stories, these old myths, these old traditions, these old religions, I think that's where that's where I want to that's where I want to be. That's where I want to find myself. That's what I want to glean from. And so, while Paul has has found himself a Christian, an Orthodox Christian, so he's gone, you know, full fat with it. Um I I see people like at every step of the of his journey really in in every sort of inch of of what he told us. And so that's why I put it in there. He he's specifically in the chapter on nature worship because I think climate anxiety is a huge reason why we're talking about what we're talking about. This idea that we're looking at ourselves and each other and and are kind of like what are we doing and why can't we stop doing what we're doing? You know, as Paul Kings North says, we're becoming a machine in a way. And with AI and sort of immortality technology and and all of the all of these things, that's only increasing and that's only making us more near of us. It's interesting, isn't it? We we we might think that all of that would make us feel peaceful, like progress equals peace, and somehow it's making us feel the opposite. And so, we're going back to old things. Um and and old things tend to be for better or for worse spiritual things, mystical things, weird things.

[00:49:50]>> That story of Paul Kingsov, I guess reminds me of another story of someone else who found their way into full fact orthodoxy or orthodox with a with a big O. Um uh he's Rod Dreer who's um I know an American columnist wrote a book which um I was thinking about when I was reading yours. It's called Living in Wonder >> and um he writes in a similar way about a sort of journey of finding a a kind of much more sort of supernatural kind of um visceral kind of Christian faith and the kind of rather bland forms he grew up with. But I said what one one theme he he focused on in that book which which I wanted to ask you about Bel was and which are related to the point about paganism in the past is that he he he talks he has a chapter where he talks about how >> you know be be wary of the dark side he calls it.

[00:50:35]>> Yeah. um and that the early Christians when they looked at the paganism around them um they saw not just a sort of neutral set of practices but they saw something kind of dark and mysterious and quite destructive at work and I guess the whole realm of um you know in the whole realm of spirituality Christians believe there is there is good and there is evil within that as well. there are dark powers at work and you know Rome Williams recently in a in a interview expressed his belief in you know Satan evil is is a thing >> um and I wonder how you how you sort of factored that in into this discussion and um >> and to what extent >> uh you you feel you know are there evil powers at work in this how do you kind of deal with that question you know how the early Christians would have talked about a kind of repaganizing um you know yeah just that that's my question I guess and I was just intrigued to see how you'd how you would speak about that side of of the spiritual realities that people are accessing right now.

[00:51:35]>> Yes, it's a good question and the headline would be that I do it subtly.

[00:51:40]You do >> probably probably too gently for I I'm I'm expecting that to be um one of the major criticisms that come back at me specifically from Christians is that I'm too gentle with that. And I think there's only one place in the whole book where I say do not touch this. Um and that's with psychic mediumship. So specifically communicating with the dead. That is uh that's a chapter I sort of refused to write in a way. Um both because I was like this is I I can't write something about something as painful as death in a way that's purely academic and hypothetical and theological.

[00:52:16]But if but if I was to do when when for so many people it is not hypothetical academic or theological it is personal and it is painful. So I kind of refuse to do that but also because I say in the book to be honest if I was to write this chapter I would tell you not to go anywhere near this not to touch it with a barge pole because we are dealing with something that we might want deeply but we do not understand. And so that's the only place in the book where I say don't touch it. In the rest of the book, I try to again, we'll keep coming back to it.

[00:52:48]And apologies for being so kind of like biblical in my outlook, but I'm a New Testament nerd. I I I can't escape it.

[00:52:55]Um, again, my guiding principle there was Paul in in Athens with that Justin mentioned right at the top of the conversation where he rocks up in Athens and we're actively told he was distressed >> by all of the places that people's sacred aches were taking them. So, there is a distress within me. I can't deny that there's a distress. Yet I was so taken by the fact that when he gets up and stands up to give this major speech in front of the culture making council of the day that distress actually doesn't lead the way. He's quite relaxed and actually he has this generous curiosity about him and I tried to take that and so if anyone was to ever probe me on it I would be very honest about my distress but I actively decided to not go heavy with it on the book because what I wanted to do with the book is have a posture of curiosity and and to really dig for the the longings that I don't think are wrong even if I am distressed about where they're going. So that's the first thing to say. Having said all of that, so I've just written a piece about Rowan Williams talking about evil spirits because I love Rowan Williams. And so he is challenging me and others are challenging me that if I'm going to be so over it with one side of the spiritual coin, I have to be as overt with the other. And so although that's not what this book in particular is written for or aims to do, that's something I am finding myself doing more of as a response to it in the conversations I'm having with people, which is just to say, look, a spiritual realm has good and bad and an enchanted world, you know, like there are things we don't understand. There are good forces and dangerous forces. I believe in God and I believe in the devil. And that even saying that to you guys feels like rejection therapy for me. Like I have spent my entire life trying to scrub out the weirder parts of what I believe. And I just can't do that anymore. And I refuse to do that. And actually to do that I'm finding really dissatisfying. When I'm looking out at the evil in our world and I'm not able to use the weird evil to describe it, I'm finding that really like increasingly annoying. And that's why I found what Rowan Williams said so interesting and fascinating. And so yes, there are dark elements to these spiritual practices. There are there are dark forces at play, manipulative forces. And I give subtle warnings in the book where I'm like, if you find yourself being constantly gratified by any spiritual practice, run from the hills. No, run to the hills.

[00:55:30]Run for the hills. Like flee. Because anything that gives you constant and immediate and unconditional gratification is not a good thing. that's actually not the path to flourishing. And so I do it hopefully very subtly where I just say again and again and again like beware of anything that just feels like fast food for your soul because it's it it's it's not good.

[00:55:54]>> Um but I it's subtle definitely.

[00:55:57]>> One one thing that's interesting to me is that actually I do think people it's actually sometimes in encounters with a malevolence or or something evil that that that often comes before belief in God. you know, belief in the devil for some people. And yes, >> um I I I remember, you know, again going back to that conversation we had with Ashley Landy where >> yeah, >> even as someone who, you know, didn't believe in God per se, you know, was talking about, you know, the the transcendent or whatever, it was actually an experience of a bad trip or and particularly kind of a sort of sensing that there was something negative, you know, a kind of demonic presence essentially in her room. that sort of was part of her journey towards sort of starting to to come out of that and realizing there's something here.

[00:56:39]And likewise Paul Kings North, I think he's spoken of the fact that he came to realize in retrospect that what he was dabbling in with wicker, you know, to some extent, you know, it's just people knocking around in the woods or whatever. But there was also a kind of spiritual side to that he realized he was kind of dabbling in that he he he he thought there was a, you know, a danger in. And and I I do wonder sometimes whether actually It's it's kind of uh there there's part of that experience of encountering something like that can suddenly jolt someone into realizing, oh, this is serious, you know, this is this, you know, and and uh so I don't know, you know, I I I would I I like you, I I would want to warn people against just kind of bllightly going off into these things. Um but sometimes you know as we know God draws straight you know uh straight lines from crooked and so on that that's often people sometimes go through that to kind of realize what they are that there is a kind of spiritual realm >> that's a great I mean I um hearing that again and again and again and the same with Nick Mulvy right he was doing all of these spiritual practices and it's like there's something insidious in so many of them um and is big reason why he found Jesus so like lifegiving. Um, and you're right. I'm having that conversation so frequently where it's actually not hard. Yeah. Right. This is interesting. I haven't really spoken about this or or really thought this through to its full conclusion, but I'm finding it not very hard to convince people that there are evil forces in the world right now.

[00:58:13]>> That's actually not a tricky thing. Um, which is really interesting. And a lot of it, as you've said, Justin, like people who um have uh experiences with psychedelic drugs, like when the lid is taken off the world, the lid is taken off the world for you. So, I'm to to convince people that there are insidious forces in the world is actually not a hard task. I'm finding um actually this idea of like something a bit more subtle that maybe feels a bit more benign but is just so filling self and only self that might actually be the thing that's a bit harder to pinpoint and be like oh that you know that may not quite be good for you. Um but yeah it's very interesting cultural moment in that way.

[00:58:55]Which I guess leads me on to I mean probably probably the question that I think I'm most interested to me in the book which was you know you you in some ways you put alongside each other these two two paths you know in each chapter there's basically a kind of you know we have these deep deep yearnings the sacred egg as you call it everybody experiences that the question is where do where do you go with it where where do you go to to to kind of itch that scratch or scratch that itch where do you go to you know to kind of >> um to to feed that hunger and I guess on On the one side you've got all these practices of um the Reiki and manifesting and um spiritual energy and the universe and everything else. On the other side you have sort of Christian faith.

[00:59:35]>> And I guess I I want to ask what what do you feel is the core difference between those two ways of living, ways of being. um if you were to kind of you know focus on it because each chapter looks at a different practice >> but is there an underlying theme and you know I suppose I wonder whether it was something to do with I think you have a phrase at one point you know it's it's not about us >> um >> um but I don't know how you'd put that what's the kind of underlying difference between these two two versions of of of versions of reality they're more kind of paths ways in which we we satisfy the kind of deepest yearnings of the heart >> yeah I mean that's something that I think I was toying with the whole way through writing this book. And so, right, I have an epilogue to the book actually because I it took me a year to write the book and so it started in Glastonbury 2024 and the epilogue is in Glastonbury 2025 back at the healing field and having spent a year studying these people looking at them again and and thinking, okay, what what's the takeaway? I mean, in some ways, Graeme, like that precise question, what what am I offering that's different or what am I advocating for that's different? And it really is summed up in this idea of if we if our search for something bigger than us, if during that search, we somehow shrink it back down to the size of us, we've totally got it wrong. Like it it's it's exactly what you just said. like if our spiritual aches and longings and I don't want to listen like I spend the whole book affirming those. It's not that I want to demonize our neediness. Like Martin Shaw writes of a gimme gimminess and I'm like there is that and I don't want to demonize. I have that within me.

[01:01:23]Yeah. I I think what Christianity teaches you to do is like take that to the God that we believe loves us and made us with that neediness, with that restlessness, and then surrender it there. You know, then drop our main character syndrome there. So, our main character syndrome may lead us sort of to pray or to um sort of go to church or or or plop ourselves in the presence of of a God that we're only half sure exists. But I'm so sure that it's one of the first things that drains out of us um when we really get to know him. And so, I think that would be the main difference is like as long as we make this about us, we will continue to feel restless. we will continue to feel dissatisfied because it's about something so much bigger than us and in that we find so much fulfillment and we get so much filling up and it's such a dignifying story to be a part of but we are not the main character of it >> and I think I mean there are tons of differences heaps of differences I could talk about uh community or the fact that you know um to be a part of a religion has boundaries around it and all of this kind of thing. But I think ultimately it's that it's that we're not the main character in our own spiritual journey.

[01:02:42]And I'm so convinced that we shouldn't want to be.

[01:02:45]>> Brilliant. Brilliant. Belle, uh, wonderful book. There are about two or three people that I immediately thought when I was reading it, I want to give this book to so and so. And I think it's because you do such a good job actually of of actually >> uh doing it in that conversational style, which is not at all judgmental.

[01:03:02]you're really reaching out to people who probably are interested in these these different manifestations of spirituality and so on, but but wonderfully draw it back to the way that those are ultimately that ache is ultimately >> in your view answered in in Jesus Christ. Um and and um and so the sacred ache, it's available now by Bel Tindel Riley, famed presenter of re-enchanting.

[01:03:24]Uh it's subtitled a Christian perspective on the search for divinity in witchcraft, crystals, and tarot. It's available of course from the link with today's show and and there's a lovely line you use on a few places throughout the book uh all that we see is not all that there is and that in a way is is you know a paraphrase of seen and unseen you know and that is that is obviously who you write for that is where re-enchanting comes from uh it's a it's the organization that Graeme himself was involved in setting up so um it's been a lovely conversation to be able to really get to the heart of of what seen and unseen is actually all about what re-enchanting is about and now we can read it in book form as well. So bless you Belle. Thank you for this wonderful book and thank you for the conversation.

[01:04:07]>> Oh, it's been a joy to be on the other side. Yeah. Thanks.

[01:04:10]>> Absolutely. Well, I was thinking all three of us have now done a a book of our own on re-enchanting. So, this brings the tally, you know, it's it's the perfect trinity of of reenanting related books. So, yeah, >> we we end we end with the best, of course. Bel, you did a brilliant job.

[01:04:27]>> A that's very kind. Thank you for having me. Well, it's been wonderful to chat.

[01:04:31]Um, as ever, you can find more from Re-enchanting over at seenandunseen.com.

[01:04:36]Uh, you can also find ways to give and support the work that we're doing through Re-enchanting and Seen and Unseen. All the links are with the show today. But for now, from myself, Justin, from Graeme, and from Belle, it's goodbye.