Muslim Comes To CHALLENGE GodLogic Gets COOKED By His Own Argument!

[00:00:00]Where how do Where are you getting it from that circumcision is part of the religion of Jesus?

[00:00:06]>> Well, because the father of the Jews, Abraham, made a covenant with his descendants that they would maintain the circumcision.

[00:00:16]And um >> Where are you getting that from?

[00:00:18]>> Isn't it narrated in the Bible?

[00:00:20]>> But you said you don't care about the Bible.

[00:00:22]>> All right, well, it's also in the Quran.

[00:00:24]>> All right, where is it Where is it in the Quran?

[00:00:27]>> I don't have that reference off the top of my head. I should I just saw your stream. I didn't really prepare much in the terms of notes. I tend to go by the title God logic.

[00:00:35]>> My name is Avery, bro.

[00:00:36]>> What Oh, Avery, yeah. So, hello, Mr. Avery.

[00:00:40]So, the >> Nice to meet you.

[00:00:42]>> Nice to meet you, too. So, the the topic of of today's discussion that you have already set is did Jesus come for all of mankind?

[00:00:52]>> Mhm.

[00:00:53]>> And I will concede that I'm Now, I'm not the Bible I'm not a biblical scholar. I don't know the Bible very well. It's not my book, right? It's not my book, so I don't know it that well. But from what I have read of the Bible, I will concede that from a biblical understanding uh of Christianity, then Jesus was sent for the whole world. I will concede that.

[00:01:15]The >> That's awesome. Are you Are you Are you a Shia?

[00:01:19]>> No, I'm not a Shia. I am >> You're a Sunni?

[00:01:21]>> Yes, I'm a follower of Sunni.

[00:01:23]Alhamdulillah.

[00:01:24]>> Okay. Awesome.

[00:01:26]Keep going. I'm listening.

[00:01:28]>> The The disagreement, which is really kind of unreconcilable between us and you is that we just we don't believe in the authenticity of the Bible. We have good evidence to not accept the authenticity of the Bible. So, what the Bible says doesn't really matter to us.

[00:01:44]Even if the Bible said Jesus is God, it wouldn't really matter all that much to us because we don't believe in the Bible. It's not our book. Kind of like you don't care what the Book of Mormon says, we don't really care what the The says. You don't care what the apocryphal gospels say, we don't care what the Bible says.

[00:02:00]>> Ali, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you, my brother?

[00:02:03]>> I'm 18.

[00:02:05]>> You're 18.

[00:02:06]>> Yeah.

[00:02:06]>> You're 18 years old and you have in the first 2 minutes of us meeting have been more honest with me um with the Muslim stance more than hundreds of Muslims that I've spoken to, much older than you.

[00:02:23]>> Well.

[00:02:23]>> So, first I want to say thank you cuz you're right.

[00:02:26]Muslims don't believe in the Bible, so it doesn't matter what it says. They're not going to You're not going to believe it anyway. You don't care. You don't believe it.

[00:02:35]Right? So, when Muslims try to challenge us to say, "Where is Jesus in the God in the Bible?" or "Where in the Bible does it say this?" and we show it and right what? What? Does it matter to you?

[00:02:47]It It doesn't matter. You're going to Cuz it It now It now goes from "Yes, it says this." to "Well, I don't believe in this anyway. It's not authentic." That's what you do with it.

[00:02:57]>> Right. Yeah, I'm We'll just be real. Of course, now there are kind of nuances to it. I don't think especially when it comes down to the Old Testament, I don't think I think it's pretty clear that the doctrine of the Trinity is not uh in the Old Testament, but that's not the subject. I don't want to derail your stream. Mhm.

[00:03:15]I also don't feel like the doctrine of the Trinity is really very well established in the New Testament. You could say that the New Testament says Jesus is God, but Jesus being God is not the Trinity. So, if the New Testament says Jesus is God, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean the truth.

[00:03:35]But anyway, that's not That's not the subject of of of your discussion.

[00:03:39]>> Let me ask you this, Ali. Do you Do you Do you think cuz obviously I you know, I I think that the Trinity is Old Testament and New Testament, but on the subject, you you were like, "Okay, you know what? You can concede that biblically Jesus' message was for all mankind. He was He was for everyone.

[00:03:56]Biblically >> Biblically speaking.

[00:03:58]>> You don't care about what the Bible says. What about Islamically?

[00:04:00]Islamically, do you think that Jesus was only for Israel or do you think he was he was for all mankind as well?

[00:04:09]>> Well, so that that I believe there's a bit of nuance in this. Now, when we're talking about Islam, I want to be more careful because of course Islam is my religion and I don't want to narrate something false about my own religion.

[00:04:19]>> Yeah.

[00:04:19]>> All right, this is a major sin in our faith.

[00:04:21]But I would say that as for my understanding, the Islamic position is pretty clear in Jesus being sent exclusively to Israel. But this is not to say, right? Here's the big caveat. He is sent exclusively for Bani Israel.

[00:04:35]>> Mhm.

[00:04:35]>> But that doesn't mean that pagans or non I don't want to say pagans. It doesn't mean that non-Jews couldn't benefit from Jesus' message.

[00:04:44]>> Okay.

[00:04:46]>> You know, like in Book of Acts, right?

[00:04:48]There's a There's a whole discussion where James says, "You know what? The Gentiles, they don't have to uh James reaches a an agreement with Paul where he says, "You know, the Gentiles don't have to be fully under the law. All that they need to do is not eat meat sacrificed to idols, not eat blood, and I forget what the third rule is."

[00:05:07]>> the poor.

[00:05:09]And >> Yeah, whatever. The Noahide a version of the Noahide covenant. So, we believe that the main part of me Jesus was mainly sent to Bani Israel.

[00:05:19]But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone else was completely excluded and that they had nothing to gain from Jesus' message.

[00:05:25]>> So, is your position that Jesus he was sent specifically to Israel, but if Gentiles, like non-Jews, were to let's say they heard of Jesus and they heard what he taught, that they can also come into the faith and and um be be part of the religion and and uh you know, come to the truth of God in that way even though he wasn't specifically sent to them, but from hearing what he preached, they can also come into the faith. Is that is that is that the position?

[00:06:00]>> Well, kind of not entirely because and again, I I want to be very careful with what I say. I don't want to say something false about Islam. But it it could be possible that first of all, you could always convert to Judaism and then you could convert to Judaism and then be a Jewish Christian that way.

[00:06:16]>> Mhm.

[00:06:17]>> Or if you didn't fully convert to Judaism, you could be a Noahide, right? Which is what we see today. You know, some Jews actually practice this where you can if you're a Gentile who believes in Rabbi Schneerson to be the Messiah, you can be a Noahide.

[00:06:31]>> Mhm.

[00:06:31]>> Which means that you follow just seven laws. You don't eat you don't bow down to idols, you don't eat pork. There's a few rules.

[00:06:39]So, you can be a Noahide and follow a very, you could say, abridged version of the covenant of Moses.

[00:06:46]>> So, what about Jesus though? Like can can a Gentile come into the faith through the message of Jesus?

[00:06:51]>> Well, entirely, right? No one has ever said that that's not true. A Gentile can always get circumcised and become a Jew and then be a part of the message of Jesus. The question is to what extent do to what extent can non-circumcised Gentiles participate in the religion of Jesus?

[00:07:11]>> Yeah, that's where we >> we disagree. This is where we disagree, right? Because you would say that the circumcision is completely abrogated when Paul came.

[00:07:20]Um >> I would say when Jesus fulfilled the law.

[00:07:22]>> Right, when Jesus fulfilled the law, but then it was announced with Paul.

[00:07:27]Um whereas we would say, "No, circumcision was never abrogated."

[00:07:30]>> Well, actually it was with Peter, not Paul.

[00:07:32]>> Oh, sorry, with Peter.

[00:07:33]>> Mhm.

[00:07:34]At the Council of Jerusalem. But >> Right.

[00:07:37]>> But so so this is my thing.

[00:07:39]Can a are is in your position, can a Gentile who is not circumcised, can they convert to I guess, you know, following Christ?

[00:07:52]>> So, you're asking could a Gentile follow Christ without getting circumcised?

[00:07:55]>> Mhm.

[00:07:56]>> Well, one of the greatest scholars of Islam, I don't remember who, maybe it was Imam al-Shafi, he said, you know, "Knowledge begins when you say, 'I don't know.'" And I'll just have to be very frank with you and say, "I don't know exactly to what extent a non-circumcised Jew or a non-circumcised Gentile, rather, could participate in the religion of Jesus.

[00:08:17]>> Mhm.

[00:08:18]>> But, of course, my position, right, the real point of contention between you and me is that I do not believe that what I definitely don't believe is I'll phrase it this way.

[00:08:28]>> Mhm.

[00:08:29]>> What I definitely don't believe is that you could 100% participate in the religion without being circumcised.

[00:08:35]Definitely, not being circumcised would put you, I guess you could say, a tier down compared to the circumcised people. That is where I believe.

[00:08:43]>> All right, let's go with that. Where where how do you Where are you getting it from that circumcision is part of the religion of Jesus?

[00:08:51]>> Well, because uh the father of the Jews, Abraham, alayhis salaam, Ibrahim, made a covenant with his descendants that they would maintain the circumcision.

[00:09:01]And um >> Where are you getting that from?

[00:09:03]>> Isn't it narrated in the Bible?

[00:09:05]>> But you said you don't care about the Bible.

[00:09:07]>> Right, but it's also in the Quran.

[00:09:09]>> The Where is it Where is it in the Quran?

[00:09:12]>> I don't have that reference off the top of my head. I should I just saw your stream. I didn't really prepare much in the terms of notes.

[00:09:17]>> Okay, yeah, I know. This is it's a lot of free free uh freestyling talking here.

[00:09:22]>> Uh I mean, as Muslims, we do believe it is clearly narrated in Hadith that I can show you. It is clearly narrated in Hadith that actually actually no, I can actually I do know the source. It's not in the Quran, but it is in the Sira, I believe, of Muhammad S.A.W.

[00:09:38]that um that uh like that the Arabs of Muhammad's tribe practiced circumcision even though they were pagans, and this was the one vestige left of the religion of Abraham.

[00:09:50]>> Yeah, but where does it say that that's part of the religion of Abraham?

[00:09:54]>> Well, it's in the Sira. As for the Quran, I don't know, right? I could Google it, but then it's kind of I feel like it's a bit dishonest to be Googling things mid mid debate.

[00:10:01]>> That's not. We're We're not even in the This This whole time, Ali, do you feel like we've been debating?

[00:10:06]>> No, I feel like we've been having a very pleasant uh >> Hey, we're just we're just talking. So, it's okay to look look stuff up. I do it all the time all the time. We're We're not going to remember everything.

[00:10:15]Um to my knowledge, I don't think that is it is in the Quran that it that it shows that circumcision is a command by God.

[00:10:22]>> Okay, here it is. It is in the Quran, chapter 16, verse 123. Let me >> And what does it say?

[00:10:27]>> Surah An-Nahl, 123.

[00:10:30]Then we revealed to you, O prophet, saying, "Follow the faith of Abraham, the upright, who was one of the" Okay, so this actually doesn't mention um This actually doesn't mention circumcision.

[00:10:41]>> Mhm.

[00:10:42]>> Um >> To my knowledge, the commandment of circumcision is not in the Quran.

[00:10:47]>> It might not be.

[00:10:48]>> Yeah.

[00:10:49]>> It might It It might not be in the Quran, but it is definitely in the It is definitely narrated in Hadith that circumcision is mandatory for men and then optional for women.

[00:11:00]>> Now, but but where does it say that that's something that's for that uh that God established with Abraham or even Jesus?

[00:11:11]>> Well, I guess I'll have to I'll have to Google that.

[00:11:14]>> See, I I think this is something that you would you would need to go to the Bible for, but >> Right, and we can it if it's >> But you can't cuz you don't you don't believe in the Bible.

[00:11:24]>> Well, well, that's the thing. There's actually been a new of nuance to it. The Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. instructed us to we can take from the Bible uh within a limited within a limited um we can we can take from the Bible in a limited way.

[00:11:40]In [clears throat] fact, many things >> It's either you can take from the Bible or you can't, man.

[00:11:47]You can't take You can't take from a Bible parts that you that that benefits you, but then ignore the parts that I guess will refute you. You got to It's either you take it or you don't.

[00:11:57]>> Well, I would disagree with that because, you know, or I would uh like, you know, if you look at the canonization of the Bible, right? One of the requirements to canonize a book into the Bible was is it uh epis- is it not is it apostolic? Is it orthodox? So, you can see in every tradition there's a I mean, at the end of the day it's just not a big point of contention for us. Like, whether or not circumcision was a part of the religion of Mose- of Abraham or whether it wasn't, it's just not like it's it's not a core doctrine.

[00:12:31]>> But, it it is it is something important because you're saying that this determines whether or not >> Right.

[00:12:36]>> was able to come into the religion of Jesus on whether they were circumcised or not.

[00:12:42]>> We don't believe We don't believe that that that circumcision is necessarily the um We believe that that Jesus was spent sent specifically to Bani Israel because this is what the Quran says.

[00:12:58]>> Right.

[00:12:59]>> anything else is secondary. Whether or not it's the religion of Moses, religion of Abraham, religion of this, religion of that, to all of us this is secondary, right? Cuz for to us, the same way as Christians you believe make disciples in all the nations in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you believe this cuz it's in your scripture, we believe that Jesus was spent sent specifically to Israel just as a part of as a core belief of our scripture.

[00:13:23]>> Okay. So, him being sent to Israel, which this is actually what both of us agree on. We agree that he was sent primarily to Israel. But, um obviously with the Bible it shows that his message was for all of mankind.

[00:13:38]Now, I I I actually think that from the Quran we can establish that Jesus is also for all mankind, not just Israel, even though he was primarily sent there, but the Quran talks about him as a sign for mankind and a mercy >> Right.

[00:13:54]Right.

[00:13:55]>> They come in Well, well >> Well, that it's Okay, so we want to get into that, right? Cuz Islam is something I know more about than >> Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it.

[00:14:04]>> I'm not a a very knowledgeable person.

[00:14:06]I'm, you know, I'm just going to be up front with you. I'm I'm just a layman. I just saw your stream on YouTube. I decided to hop on. I'm not like a professional debater or anything like that.

[00:14:14]>> Like I said, with a person with your demeanor, we're not even we're we're we're not we're just talking at this point.

[00:14:20]>> Um but so yeah, Jesus Jesus was a sign is a sign for mankind, right? Because of course he's going to See, the thing is you have to read the Quran in the light of the Hadith. You can't just look at Hadith and you can't just look at the Quran because they they complement each other.

[00:14:36]>> Okay.

[00:14:37]>> They they fulfill each other. Sort of like you can't just read the Old Testament and just read the New Testament.

[00:14:43]Right? You need to read them in light of each other.

[00:14:45]>> Mhm.

[00:14:46]>> Because if you just read the Old Testament, you you would think probably a lot of false things about Jesus and about Christianity. And then if you read just the New Testament and without the Old Testament, you probably think a lot of very false things about Jesus and about So, you need to see them both together. In the Hadith, it's clearly said that Jesus, the son of Mary, will come a second time.

[00:15:08]So, then um the second time Jesus comes, all of mankind will witness him, but at that point the law of Jesus will be abrogated by the law of Muhammad. It's already been abrogated. So, when he comes a second time, in a way you could say yeah he's coming for all of mankind but it's not the message of Jesus anymore. Jesus is coming now under the law of Muhammad for all of mankind.

[00:15:29]>> Well this is where I would disagree with that because for example under the law of Muhammad you have the jizya, right?

[00:15:36]>> Right.

[00:15:37]>> But according to the Hadith when Jesus comes back he's going to abolish the jizya.

[00:15:41]>> Right.

[00:15:42]>> So I would say that you he is bringing his law and it's it's the law of Muhammad that's being abrogated and the law of Jesus whatever he brings is being the established law.

[00:15:52]>> Well what part of the law of Muhammad is being abrogated?

[00:15:55]>> The jizya.

[00:15:56]>> Right but the the Muhammad the jizya is set with a term of expiration. So it expires when Jesus comes and the reason the reason it's expired the reason that there is no jizya jizya when Isa bin Maryam comes is because now the Christians have nothing to say and the Jews have nothing to say.

[00:16:15]So it's either accept Islam or or after that point. [laughter] >> But okay but even so though um it it's still an abrogation of Muhammad's law.

[00:16:29]It's it's the Messiah now. He's here.

[00:16:32]He's setting it up.

[00:16:34]You know what I'm saying?

[00:16:35]>> Right. I can see why you'd say that.

[00:16:37]>> Yeah. So I would I would say that it's even the Hadith point to the Messiah being the final I guess you could say even the final prophet the final messenger cuz he's the one coming and setting the last law.

[00:16:50]>> Right. I mean I guess it just kind of gets down to linguistics like how you kind of defining these words cuz I would just say well right when when there's nothing really new coming. It's just Muhammad said right this we have this law and it expires at this specific point in time and but I can see why you'd say that like you'd say okay this is a new law I can kind of see where you're coming from.

[00:17:10]>> Yeah it'll be the same thing with like like what you think about Muhammad you believe that Jesus and his laws that he's came with that was the set law until Muhammad came and he brought the new >> Right, I can see why you'd say that but the reason I would I feel with all due respect I feel like this might be a little bit intellectually dishonest what you're saying is that if you ask your average Christian Is Jesus when he comes in his second coming is he going to walk around the Kaaba?

[00:17:37]Your average Christian would say no, absolutely not. Jesus is not going to walk around the Kaaba.

[00:17:41]>> Of course not. Of course not.

[00:17:42]>> When Jesus comes in his second coming is he going to kiss the black stone?

[00:17:46]>> Of course not.

[00:17:46]>> Your average Christian would not believe that. In fact that belief would take you out of the fold of Christianity.

[00:17:51]>> Right.

[00:17:51]>> So So if you look at the Muslim Jesus Okay, maybe there's this one very slight detail of the uh of the of the you could say the covenant of Muhammad being um abrogated. But when he comes what he's going to be doing is way closer to what uh to what Muslims do than to what Christians imagine he's going to because we believe Isa is going to come down, he's going to have kids, he's just going to be a normal normal man.

[00:18:20]He's going to come down, he's going to have kids, he's going to have a kingdom, he's going to walk around the Kaaba, he's going to kiss the black stone. He's going to drink Zamzam water. He's going to >> How could he be lost?

[00:18:30]>> might even be a polygamist, who knows?

[00:18:33]I mean >> he be lost? How could he be lost? So look, when you're saying this and I and I understand from your perspective as a Muslim, I understand.

[00:18:40]>> Yeah.

[00:18:41]>> But the the the point is this.

[00:18:43]The point is is that you have Jesus who's coming and setting the final law and establishing the kingdom.

[00:18:51]>> Right.

[00:18:51]>> You have Jesus being said to be a sign and a mercy for mankind not when he returns but when he was sent the first time. He was a sign and a mercy for mankind.

[00:19:04]>> Well, but it doesn't make that specification that he's he's just a sign for mankind before he gets lifted up to heaven cuz right we don't believe he died. So, there's no It's kind of like he's just >> It says when we sent him, we made him a sign and a mercy for mankind.

[00:19:20]>> And he's still sent. That's the thing, right? From us, it's it's different cuz we don't believe he ever got crucified and resurrected. So, he's still sent.

[00:19:27]>> You're You're saying You're saying that he's a sign for mankind after. Like it it it says in the >> after. And you could still say he's a sign for mankind before, right? Cuz of the miracle birth and the miracles that his mother the blessed uh Mary >> Mhm.

[00:19:42]>> uh and uh and >> Exactly. And And so, with that being said, people, non-Jews, can look to the sign of Jesus and come to the true religion, right?

[00:19:54]>> They can look at is Right, yes, they can. But, the thing is when they look for the sign of Jesus and come to the true religion, they're not going to be coming When they come to follow the true religion, they're not going to be following Jesus because his law is abrogated. When they come to follow the sign of Jesus, they're going to be following the law of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

[00:20:13]>> And this And this is where we disagree cuz even in Muhammad's time, you still have the law of Jesus is still valid and authoritative.

[00:20:22]Right?

[00:20:23]>> What makes you say that?

[00:20:24]>> So, like in in in chapter five, Surah Ma'idah >> Okay.

[00:20:29]>> 40 in verse 47. Um really, if you as verse 43 to 48 in context, >> Okay.

[00:20:35]>> um Allah is addressing each group. He's addressing the Jews, the Christians, and then the um and the Muslims in verse 43.

[00:20:42]>> Sorry, can you tell me the verse? Uh chapter five, verse 47 43 to 47.

[00:20:47]>> Mhm.

[00:20:48]>> Okay, let's pull this up.

[00:20:51]>> [snorts] >> Oh, okay, we're doing Okay, we're doing this this now. Okay?

[00:20:56]What about it?

[00:20:57]>> All right. So, verse 43 says, "Why do they come to you for judgment when they have the Torah, in which Allah's judgments are in, and even still, they turn away, right?" They're talking about the Jew.

[00:21:08]>> Right.

[00:21:09]>> So this shows that even in Muhammad's time the Torah is still valid for the Jews and authoritative for them.

[00:21:16]>> Okay.

[00:21:17]>> Now, and then if when you get to verse 44 and 45 it starts talking about um how he entrusted, you know, the rabbis and stuff to take care of the Torah and the Torah was used as a judgment, yada yada.

[00:21:30]Um even talks about what law he he he mentioned. Then 46 he mentions how he sent Jesus with the Injil confirming the Torah that came before him.

[00:21:39]>> Okay, so here on 46. Jesus come to confirm the Torah. Okay, so we're we're going from 43 to 46.

[00:21:45]>> Mhm.

[00:21:46]>> So I'm on 43, sorry. Okay, 43 44. Okay, yes, I've read this passage.

[00:21:52]>> Right.

[00:21:52]>> Um okay.

[00:21:54]So what is >> So verse 46 you see and we sent Jesus, um you know, confirming the Torah that came before him uh with the gospel. He gave him the gospel.

[00:22:04]>> confirm the Torah.

[00:22:05]>> Exactly. Now, and then after that verse 47.

[00:22:09]Verse 47 says so let the people of the gospel, let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed in it.

[00:22:17]And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, they're the wrongdoers.

[00:22:21]>> Right. And how do you do that?

[00:22:23]>> By following the gospel.

[00:22:24]>> Well, just read the next verse.

[00:22:27]>> Okay. And so in the next verse, so no notice this is in Muhammad's time.

[00:22:32]>> Right.

[00:22:32]>> Jews are to judge by the Torah, verse 43.

[00:22:35]>> Okay.

[00:22:36]>> Christians are to judge by the gospel in verse 47. Now verse 48. Now Allah's talking to Muhammad and the Muslims.

[00:22:43]>> Okay.

[00:22:44]>> And we gave to you sent down to you the book um as a confirmation, book of truth as a confirmation of that which came before it.

[00:22:51]>> Right.

[00:22:52]>> And a Muhaymin, a guardian or trustworthy witness or whatever uh over it. All right? So judge between them by what Allah has revealed to you and do not uh follow their vain desires.

[00:23:04]>> Right.

[00:23:05]>> And then it says and this is the interesting part. To each of you we have prescribed a law, right?

[00:23:13]>> Okay.

[00:23:14]>> Right there in verse 48, right in the middle of the of the verse.

[00:23:18]>> Okay.

[00:23:18]>> of you we prescribed your own law.

[00:23:19]>> It is follows.

[00:23:21]>> Mhm.

[00:23:22]And if Allah had wanted to, if he willed, he would have made you all one nation.

[00:23:27]>> Right.

[00:23:28]>> But that he might test you in what he's given you and so compete in doing good and then you know, you return to him and he'll, you know, tell you about what you guys used to differ about later on when you return.

[00:23:41]So the bottom half of the verse says that each of you have been prescribed a law from a law.

[00:23:48]And if he wanted to, he would have made you all one nation. But he didn't.

[00:23:51]>> Right.

[00:23:52]Yeah, he didn't.

[00:23:53]>> So each law is still authoritative even in Muhammad's time for each particular group.

[00:24:00]>> Okay, I see what you're saying, but um you know, it's you you have to understand some verses where it gets complicated, right? Some verses are abrogated by other verses, some verses are revealed in Mecca, some verses are revealed in Medina. I'm not a scholar of the Quran, I'm not a scholar of anything.

[00:24:18]>> Yeah.

[00:24:18]>> Um uh Right, of course we had the Constitution of Medina where Muhammad allowed Jews to run their communities according to the Sharia of of the Torah.

[00:24:36]Or really the Sharia of the Old Testament. And the Christians, I don't think there were any Christians in Medina, but so this is this is making a statement that um And for And first of all, the Torah, I guess kind of have to unpack this bit by bit. So first of all, the Torah is not the Old Testament. Right? We both understand the Torah is not the Old Testament.

[00:24:57]These are two different >> How do you know that?

[00:25:00]>> Cuz the Torah is the five books of Moses. The >> That's the Old Testament.

[00:25:04]>> No, the Old Testament has way more books than the five. The The book of Genesis >> Okay, so you're saying that the Torah >> Genesis is not the Torah, right? These are the Tanakh. It doesn't say we have sent down to you and confirmed the Tanakh. We've sent down and confirmed the Torah. And the Torah is >> Which is which is in the Old Testament, right?

[00:25:20]>> Right, the Torah is a part of the Old Testament, but it's not the whole Old Testament.

[00:25:23]>> Got you. All right.

[00:25:24]>> know what other books the Jews of of Medina >> Mhm.

[00:25:29]>> were had in their possession.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah.

[00:25:32]>> do know that you know, it's more likely than not the Jews and Christians that did live in the Arabian Peninsula had um they had views that according to their respective orthodoxies were considered heretical. So, it's likely that there were a lot of non-Trinitarian Christians living in 7th Century Arabia. There were a lot of Jews >> Yeah, there were a lot of Gnostics around.

[00:25:56]>> There were There were a lot of people with unusual beliefs.

[00:25:59]>> Did you know that from the Islamic view that the Torah and you know um encapsulated all the Old Testament.

[00:26:10]Like there's an example there's a Hadith where Muhammad asks a Jew. He says, um am I in your Torah? Do you find me mentioned in your Torah?

[00:26:19]And they say, yes. He says, where? And then they begin to start they quote Isaiah 42. They start quoting Isaiah.

[00:26:26]>> Okay.

[00:26:27]>> And so that shows that there is a a view that they saw the entire Tanakh as the Torah. They referred to the Tanakh the whole Tanakh as the Torah.

[00:26:38]>> Well, I don't know that I don't know about this Hadith. You'd have to show it to me. I don't know what I'm not a Hadith scholar.

[00:26:44]>> Let me show you.

[00:26:44]>> Cuz you know, Hadith it gets very hairy because it's there's Hadith that are inauthentic.

[00:26:51]And then and then because there's so many more Hadith right, there's so many of them. A lot of them are translated very poorly, which makes it harder for non-Arabs like you and me to to discuss.

[00:27:04]>> Yeah, let's see. Let me see if I can try to find this.

[00:27:10]We are learning from the people who works here.

[00:27:19]Let me see. Hold on. Let me Let me hit somebody up and see if they have the Hadith.

[00:27:24]Hey guys, do you guys have the Hadith?

[00:27:25]>> what you're talking about though? You're talking about the Hadith of Abdullah ibn Salam.

[00:27:29]I don't know what you're talking about.

[00:27:30]He's a rabbi who converted to um who converted to Islam.

[00:27:39]>> What are they calling it?

[00:27:50]All right, let me see if um Let me see if my friends if they know it.

[00:27:55]Okay, someone said Sa'd ibn Mu'adh. Um that's I think that's a different one.

[00:28:01]Okay. All right, let's see here. Sa'd ibn Mu'adh 21 21 25, let's see.

[00:28:06]All right, Sa'd ibn Mu'adh 21 25. I'm going to put it on the screen so that we can all see it too just to make sure it's it's the right one.

[00:28:13]>> Yeah, if I can see it, that'd be great.

[00:28:15]>> By the way, guys, as I'm pulling this up, make sure you guys hit the uh hit the like button. There's over 2,500 people Oops.

[00:28:29]There's over 2,500 people watching here on YouTube. So, everybody, let's make sure we get the likes up to at least 2,500 guys. If you guys have not hit that like button, don't out yourselves. You know what You know what the deal is. Don't out yourself.

[00:28:43]All right. All right, 21 That's 19 21.

[00:28:47]All right, here it is. Okay.

[00:28:52]Okay. All right, let me share this screen.

[00:28:59]Oh.

[00:29:00]>> That's me.

[00:29:01]>> All right, here it is. All right.

[00:29:03]All right, say for card 21:25.

[00:29:05]I met Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As and asked him asked him, "Tell me >> al-As.

[00:29:13]>> Okay. Tell me about the description of Allah's messenger which is mentioned in the Torah.

[00:29:20]It's funny how they put i.e. Old Testament.

[00:29:22]>> [laughter] >> Um, [snorts] he replied, "Yes, by Allah, he is described in Torah with some of the qualities attributed to him in the Quran as follows.

[00:29:34]O prophet, we have sent you as a witness and a giver of glad tidings and a warner and a guardian to the illiterate. You are my slave and my messenger. I have named you um, I don't know the how to how to What's that word?

[00:29:49]>> Al mutawakkil.

[00:29:52]>> All right.

[00:29:53]You are neither dis- courteous, harsh, nor a noise maker in the markets and you do not do evil to those who do evil to you. So, this is giving a >> It's a paraphrase of Isaiah 42.

[00:30:06]>> of Isaiah. Agreed, this is a >> But, right, that's the keyword. This is a paraphrase >> Yeah, it's a paraphrase of Isaiah 42.

[00:30:13]>> Not It is not what it is not is Isaiah 42 word for word. It is not a direct uh, if you could just scroll down a bit.

[00:30:21]>> It is a reference Can we Can we agree that it is a reference to Isaiah 42?

[00:30:27]>> You could It's It's similar to Isaiah 42. It's very >> It's literally It's paraphrasing it.

[00:30:33]>> Right, it's paraphrasing it.

[00:30:35]>> So, it's It's refer- It's referring to Isaiah 42.

[00:30:39]>> It doesn't say Isaiah 42 in the text.

[00:30:42]You right? Again, again, the the Jews in 7th century Arabia used a very different scripture. They had very different beliefs than today's Jews.

[00:30:52]>> They didn't have a different scripture.

[00:30:54]They have the same scripture that I have. This is why we can pull this up.

[00:30:57]This is why we can see this stuff.

[00:30:59]>> Well, well What What makes you >> Yeah, but this has nothing to do with this right here. Right here, we have them paraphrasing Isaiah 42. Can we agree to that?

[00:31:15]>> Yeah, they're paraphrasing Isaiah 42, but they're not referencing, right?

[00:31:19]They're not referencing the the Old Testament book of Isaiah verse 42. We don't know how the Torah of 7th century or the Old Testament rather of Isaiah 42 was structured, right?

[00:31:30]>> We have even older than the 7th century of Isaiah 42.

[00:31:33]>> Right, but we don't have it from that region.

[00:31:35]>> My my friend, let's let's be honest.

[00:31:37]>> I'm being honest.

[00:31:37]>> When you if we're if we're acknowledging that it's paraphrasing a Isaiah 42, by default then, it's referencing Isaiah 42 by paraphrasing it.

[00:31:53]Can we agree?

[00:31:54]>> Can you just give me 1 second? I'm sorry. Just give me 1 second. I'm making a diagram for you. So, we have source A.

[00:32:03]>> [sighs and gasps] >> I had high hopes for you.

[00:32:10]>> Okay.

[00:32:11]So, we have source A.

[00:32:14]Right? We have the original Torah of Moses.

[00:32:18]And then, it gets transmitted orally. It gets remixed. It gets remixed. Let's even add another letter. It gets remixed all the way it until E. So, then this statement, which is originally in the Torah of Moses, is now actually outside of the Torah of Moses, but within the same collection. It's now within another book.

[00:32:38]Cuz we don't believe in necessarily the authenticity of the book of Isaiah. So >> Then why are these are they quoting it saying it's from from a >> No, but I'm saying they might be quoting Okay, so here's the Torah they have in 7th century Arabia.

[00:32:50]>> Or they might be quoting this phantom this phantom verse in the Torah, huh?

[00:32:54]>> Yes, there you go. It's a phantom verse in the It could be a phantom verse in the Torah.

[00:33:00]Which isn't unusual. It's not It's not a crazy thing to say.

[00:33:04]>> Okay.

[00:33:05]>> You know, Christian scholars believe in a Q gospel for the Old Testament.

[00:33:09]>> Well, they don't. It's only theoretical.

[00:33:11]>> Well, they right. They believe in the theoretical >> And not everybody holds to that. No.

[00:33:15]>> Right, but it's a significant opinion.

[00:33:17]Um within Christians with even apologetics >> opinion. It's only a theory. It's only a theory held by others, a few, and they say it doesn't exist.

[00:33:28]>> Of course it it doesn't exist, but I mean if you buy a Catholic study Bible, it's there. They say In fact, the Catholic study Bible is very very pro Q.

[00:33:37]I I don't know if you've read the Catholic study but the American made by the American >> This is where I'm I'm a I'm a let it I'm a let this go here.

[00:33:45]>> Okay, wait. One thing before I go. One thing >> I'm going to bring up the next I'm going to bring up the next >> Okay, we're closing out >> He wasn't being honest with me there.

[00:33:52]You disappointed me.

[00:33:53]>> Before we Wait, before we get into a I'm not trying to rehash this point. Just one >> No, I'm moving I'm moving on to the next guest.

[00:33:59]>> Stay away from Mr. Michael Jones. He's dishonest.

[00:34:04]>> Thanks for coming, man.