I’ve lived in Uganda for 6 Years - USA VS UGANDA

[00:00:00]So I realized the same things that I loved about Uganda in vacation are the things that frustrate me now that I live. [laughter] [music] Hello, hello my tribe. Welcome back to my channel where we're all about value adding content for you to live an authentic and fulfilled life. Today we're back with an interview. Yay. I'm so excited. Please introduce yourself for the wonderful people.

[00:00:26]>> Yes, I'm so happy to be back with you.

[00:00:28]This is absolutely um great. My name is Margaret An Mazi Wamba. These days I'm known as Princess Mazi Wa.

[00:00:38]>> Yes.

[00:00:39]>> So I'm so glad to be back on your our program.

[00:00:42]>> Thank you so so much and I'm very excited because we have a great topic today to discuss. So just bringing my notes up here. After spending decades abroad and then returning to Uganda, what is the biggest misconception people here have about returnees? maybe can get a little bit of your background as well since it's been some time since you've been on the channel.

[00:01:01]>> For me personally, I left Uganda when I was a bit young. I was young. I went and did my education in England as you probably know and I also did my education in France.

[00:01:12]>> So that is a very long time to to to come back and think about what Africa might think about me. And after that I stayed in Europe and I went to United States and settled in United States. So I've been away from Africa for a very long time. Yes. even though I've been coming down every now and then to visit.

[00:01:30]Now, this last time that I'm here and that's why you're here is because I thought I would come and retire in Uganda. Yes. Where I was born.

[00:01:38]>> That's where we left the convo last a few years ago.

[00:01:41]>> Exactly. [laughter] So, the years I've spent here in Uganda, we has mainly spent on um on building this home uh getting acquainted with stuff here. I also I also created a small tourist company that would you know would help Americans especially who would come here to go and see the beauty of Uganda.

[00:02:05]Uganda is a very beautiful country >> and there's a lot to see here in this country. So that one I do it as a hobby.

[00:02:12]It's not like a huge business.

[00:02:14]>> Okay. But um there's so much I could tell you about what I think about coming back to Uganda and coming back to Africa in in general because I've also taken advantage of traveling all over Africa when I have time. Uganda is a beautiful country. Uganda's got very very beautiful weather. It has nice food, organic food.

[00:02:37]>> So good.

[00:02:37]>> It is so green all year round.

[00:02:41]>> But Uganda also has some mishaps. Yes, it does.

[00:02:45]>> We can't we [laughter] can't say that everything is all fantastic.

[00:02:49]>> Yes, at all.

[00:02:50]>> Um, but now everybody experiences these things in different ways. When you have been living abroad for so long like I have, you tend to think that you're going to find fantastic roads. You are going to find a metro. Metro being a subway or being a train as they call them.

[00:03:06]>> Yes.

[00:03:08]>> Taking you from point A to point B, taking you around the city. and that you can have a car but you don't necessarily have to use a car in the diaspora. So that is one thing that was a change for me because there are times when like I say, oh I want to have a a cup of coffee >> and I have now to get my driver to drive.

[00:03:31]>> Yes. [laughter] So it's it's a it's a little bit too different >> and then there you know some of the services are not really up to par.

[00:03:39]>> Um >> and they they're working hard I know to get everything in place. Um but some areas like where I live now you know I live in a sort of a village the water system is not the best electricity is not the best and in United States you you can't people can't go without electricity for more than a week.

[00:04:00]>> I don't even think you could go that I don't [laughter] think you could, you know, I don't think the government would survive if people were going like that.

[00:04:07]>> So, it is a little bit different for me and and it is very difficult to complain because people have really put up with it for a long time and so they know how to deal with it. But when you come from abroad, you don't know how to deal with these things.

[00:04:19]>> No, >> it doesn't matter whether we were born here, but I mean I've been away for more than 50 years. Yeah.

[00:04:24]>> So those are the things that um are shock to me when you get back here and you have you sort of think you can get used to them but no >> takes some time. It takes a lot of time to get used to such stuff.

[00:04:37]>> Okay. So one thing I want to get into and touch on is this myth that people assume that everybody abroad is rich.

[00:04:43]What is your experience now coming back here and when you were received when you when you initially came 5 years ago?

[00:04:50]Well um you come back here and everybody thinks yes you are right. They think you are so rich because you came from United States or Europe or wherever you came from. You could even have come from Asia. Yeah.

[00:05:02]>> And they think you are so rich because Yeah. Now basically yes you are rich because your money is is different and your money brings in more money for you as you exchange it.

[00:05:13]>> Of course >> but that doesn't mean that you are rich for other people.

[00:05:18]>> Yes. you are rich for yourself [laughter] you you know so that you can get everything you need while you are here >> but people you know for I'll give you an example when you come back from anywhere in Europe or or United States or Canada >> you are you are not going to be able to go to Nakasero market and just buy bananas and and vegetables and eat those you are used to things like sandwiches and you're used to cheese >> so many different um pallets and different cuisines Because you're exposed to different people.

[00:05:50]>> Yeah. You are different. Yeah. You're exposed to different things. So you miss them. So when you you find a supermarket that has those, >> you buy them and guess what? They are imported.

[00:05:59]>> Yeah.

[00:06:00]>> So therefore they expensive.

[00:06:01]>> Yeah. They're pro.

[00:06:02]>> You need your money. [laughter] You need your money to to live that little life that you used to live.

[00:06:09]>> Supplement it with whatever.

[00:06:10]>> That is so true.

[00:06:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. So that is that is >> that's a big one. And I think uh one thing I noticed as well is okay. I don't know about America because you guys have a bit better cost of living, but Canada's cost of living is high. It is quite high. And from when I've left six years ago, everyone has said it's gotten worse. [laughter] >> Really?

[00:06:27]>> Yeah. The cost of living. So, you make more income-wise, but now your day-to-day life there most like maybe like 70% of what you're making is going to paying your things.

[00:06:38]>> Yes.

[00:06:38]>> Your life there. So this assumption that now when you've come here, you've come to holiday, you've come to you know relax and you got and everyone just assumes now you have money for everything and everyone is [laughter] >> you your family and the things you need to take care of right you are quite right and the the thing is also they think I think there's a concept here that when you are in in um you know North America or Europe >> and you start you know you help your family >> people do that they send you They send maybe $1,000, $500, but they don't realize that those people really sacrifice >> to send them that money [laughter] because they have to everything you do in those countries >> costs you money.

[00:07:23]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:07:24]>> You know, everything.

[00:07:25]>> So one month you say, "Oh, I must send my my people, you know, $500." But then you don't pay some pills.

[00:07:32]>> Yeah.

[00:07:32]>> That's what some people do.

[00:07:34]>> Yeah. Some people do do that.

[00:07:35]>> But here they take it for granted that you are rich.

[00:07:37]>> Yeah. That you just have it all.

[00:07:39]And now being rich here is so beautiful because you own your car. You have to own your home. You don't have mortgages and car loans and everything like they're there but it's not as accessible. Yeah.

[00:07:49]>> Right. Right. [laughter] But um you know it's it's it's different.

[00:07:54]>> Yes, it is. It is.

[00:07:56]>> What people don't realize most people don't realize I was very lucky. I I left this country when I was much younger and went to Europe and so I >> Yes.

[00:08:05]>> My European culture is engraved in me.

[00:08:07]Yes.

[00:08:08]>> And then I went to America and then it was easy for me to adjust because I was in Europe. [clears throat] >> Yeah.

[00:08:14]>> But um people leave Africa, people leave Uganda and they go to United States or Canada or >> I don't know about because you see Europe Europeans were the colonizers. So people it is much easier for them there >> cuz things are very similar.

[00:08:29]>> Oh that's true. I only learned that when I moved here. I was like it actually is similar to their >> it is similar to this because [laughter] everything is here is British. I mean, look at this.

[00:08:38]>> Um, you put in stuff and I brought American stuff and I had to change them to Brit. But anyway, going back to the culture thing, >> they don't realize that when you go to North America, including Canada, Canada and United States especially, >> you really have to assimilate yourself in that culture to be able to be successful.

[00:08:57]>> Yes.

[00:08:57]>> Because if you don't assimilate yourself, you will never be able to survive in United States or Canada.

[00:09:03]>> Yeah. [laughter] You know, it starts with the language. You have to speak like them a little bit and and also you have to do things like them.

[00:09:12]>> Yes.

[00:09:13]>> To be able to but I found that also in England and in England it is the same actually.

[00:09:18]>> Okay.

[00:09:18]>> When when you because I grew up in England and >> and you you almost had to you know you had to adapt the the English accent.

[00:09:26]>> Oh yes. So that you you know you fit you fit in >> and for people to understand you and and also the English people there it is a class system. So if you the way you speak defines your your class.

[00:09:38]>> Oh interesting. I didn't know that.

[00:09:40]>> Yes it it defines your class. So >> so you you know anyway but um United States is hard. Are we talking about the the culture as as compared to the African culture or is it >> I think also well that and I think also in terms of like well my question mainly was about like debt itself like now the finances behind it and like how for example here everybody it's a cash economy cash is king like >> it's cash >> yeah cash is king whereas there everything runs on credit and it's so different so I think there's >> good and bad I guess there's both perspectives of a um a credit system gets you to move further like you're able to grow a bit larger and faster whereas here we don't necessarily have that so you need to save as much as you can to be able to grow what you can and that may not happen as quickly but then when you do grow here you grow so quickly.

[00:10:36]>> Yes.

[00:10:37]>> Yes.

[00:10:38]>> Yeah. So in America and and I'm pretty sure it is the same well North America >> you are quite right we we live on credit but then Africans for >> don't know how to translate that credit they think that we are living on credit and therefore we are all there you know in in this fear that you know my good I mean we are not in fear >> credit means that you are valuable >> yes >> and credit means that you have buying power >> buying power there we go yes you buying power. So you cannot take 30 million $30,000 and go and buy a car.

[00:11:15]>> Yes.

[00:11:15]>> By cash [laughter] because it is it is not financial >> like responsibility responsibility.

[00:11:22]>> It is something to do with Yeah. It is something to do with your intelligence.

[00:11:26]You >> it is not intelligent. Yes.

[00:11:28]>> Because you could use that 30 to to put a quart of it to the car, another quarter to the house and another quarter to the education of your children.

[00:11:37]Exactly. Yet you are, you know, they they not all paid off. Yes. But at least you are getting this free.

[00:11:41]>> Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's true.

[00:11:43]>> So, so yes, we we live on credit. We have credit cards. We have, you know, the houses are mortgaged. The cars are also mortgaged. But you are driving your Mercedes-Benz and you're enjoying it.

[00:11:54]You don't know whether you're going to die tomorrow. You [laughter] die and the loan is written off because you are you are dead, right? [laughter] Hilarious.

[00:12:02]So this is what this is these are these are funny things but >> they work for those people.

[00:12:07]>> Yeah. And you have to be smart though because there is that trap where then people do fall into it where you have too much there and then you can't >> breathe. That is exactly right. You [laughter] have to control your credit thing because as you know a lot of people will tell you and actually it is true Americans they go and have like 10 million credit cards.

[00:12:24]>> Yeah.

[00:12:24]>> 10 million. But but that person who has those knows the game. They know how to play this game. [laughter] >> Fair enough.

[00:12:32]>> So you can't come from Uganda and say, "Oh yeah, I know they can get all this kind." And you get them when you really don't know how to play the game.

[00:12:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:12:41]>> That's true.

[00:12:42]>> It is. It is so funny.

[00:12:44]>> So now I want to talk a little bit about reverse culture shock. So what surprised you most after returning here? So after actually the 50 years you said you didn't spend >> well. So 50 years [laughter] >> but um well the culture it the culture shock here is really it's really not a shock it is it it is sort of like um oh my god I'm amazed that these people can go and do this at such a slow speed. Oh, interesting.

[00:13:15]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:16]>> Because you see, for example, you ask someone to meet you. Okay, let's meet at Serena at 5:00 for dinner.

[00:13:23]>> And so that you know, you you've already budgeted your time. You know that by 5:00 you have drinks and then by 6:30 you eat. By 7:30 something, you'll be finished and then you go and then you plan something else for yourself >> to do at 8.

[00:13:37]>> Yes. Right after.

[00:13:39]>> This person doesn't arrive until 8.

[00:13:42][laughter] >> Yeah.

[00:13:42]>> For this dinner. Yeah, >> those things are so shocking to me. I mean, even now, even though I've been here for this long, I cannot get used to someone >> doing that. They're so relaxed.

[00:13:54]>> I know. I know. I know.

[00:13:55]>> I mean, there's so much time in the in the world and then they're like, "Oh, yeah." You know, why rush? There's so much, you know, relax.

[00:14:03]>> Just relax. Life is about relaxing. Yes.

[00:14:07]But it's not about relaxing. [laughter] Because as you know in North America what we do is yes we work very very hard.

[00:14:13]>> Yes. And time is money.

[00:14:15]>> And time is money but then you also put time aside for our relaxation. There's not one single person in North America who doesn't go on two vacations a year.

[00:14:25]>> Yeah. Or at least take time off or do something >> or take time off.

[00:14:28]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:14:29]>> Unless they want to kill themselves. But >> that's true. You know, but but here um >> it that's >> we plan time for relaxation and you plan time for the thing other things.

[00:14:40]>> Not every day is lax.

[00:14:42]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:14:42]>> Okay. I never thought of it that way and that's so true, you know.

[00:14:45]>> That's so true.

[00:14:46]>> Yeah. So that's Yeah, that was >> that's true. That is and it's something that I irritates me to this day cuz I keep time to the tea. I try and if I can't I'll tell you in advance, hey, something has come up so therefore just give me some time. God forbid. But normally I like to keep time every day.

[00:15:03]>> Yeah.

[00:15:03]>> And I realized after because everyone's like, "Oh, it's Uganda. You have to do as Uganda. You'll get used to it." No.

[00:15:09]So I realized [laughter] >> you're just like me.

[00:15:11]>> Yeah. I I can't I can't conform to that.

[00:15:14]That's one thing I can't conform to.

[00:15:15]>> And I told them I said if I get used to this sort of thing of it, >> how will I go back to United States and then do that and be able to >> Yes. And people find it very disrespectful.

[00:15:25]>> No, it is disrespectful. First of all, it wastes time. waste the other people's time. Nobody takes you seriously.

[00:15:32]>> Exactly. And I want to be taken seriously.

[00:15:35]Exactly. But when you explain it all the usually to people, they're just relax.

[00:15:40]Don't take so seriously. So I realized the same things that I loved about Uganda in vacation are the things that frustrate me now that I live. [laughter] >> Cuz when you come just momentarily like, "Oh, good. Everything's so carefree.

[00:15:53]Everyone's so relaxed." Yes.

[00:15:55]>> It's nice when you're just vacationing and you're going back when you live here. Oh my god. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:02]>> That's a good point. Were there was there anything else that shocked you? I guess. Yeah.

[00:16:07]>> Well, um about the country or about the people about >> just generally. Yeah. Either either either or.

[00:16:13]>> Well, the as I as I was saying, they are not shocks because some of them are just cultural things. Okay. people do things, you know, the culture they grew up with and and some of it is determined by their own culture.

[00:16:28]>> So, they have to do what they're doing.

[00:16:30]And when you come from outside, I mean, I shouldn't say that I shouldn't do this, I shouldn't do this when it is part of my culture.

[00:16:37]>> Exactly.

[00:16:37]>> Um >> Yeah.

[00:16:39]>> I I try my best to do it.

[00:16:40]>> Yes.

[00:16:41]>> But it doesn't mean that I really really think that that's what should be done.

[00:16:45]>> Done. Yeah. It's like you're adjusting, but you're aware still not. I'm aware of the culture. [laughter] It is not a shock that I find that someone I'm in middle of town and then someone knew down to to greet me.

[00:16:57]>> Right. Yes.

[00:16:58]>> And they shouldn't do that because you know what I'm thinking is that okay that is culture. It is respectful and so on and so forth. But then there's a time to do it.

[00:17:06]>> Right. Right.

[00:17:07]>> Yeah. There's a time to do it. Um and so you have to balance both.

[00:17:11]>> Yes. That's true.

[00:17:12]>> You have to balance both. That's true. A when and where kind of situation sort [laughter] of thing.

[00:17:17]>> That's true. Um yeah um the mostly Uganda is not so bad when it comes to to the thing to to knowing what to do.

[00:17:30]>> A lot of people are guided by their culture. Yes.

[00:17:33]>> People here in the where I live, I'm from here, Buganda, they are very respectful and they are rules that we are instilled in us as children. That's true.

[00:17:42]>> And we follow those things as we grow.

[00:17:44]So you know how to greet people. how to say thank you, you know, but then you meet people who I don't grow who didn't grow up like that >> and you give them something and they don't say anything >> and so that shocks me.

[00:17:56]>> Okay.

[00:17:57]>> Talking about shock.

[00:17:58]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:17:59]>> You know, I mean I'm I'm I'm expecting everybody to say thank you to someone.

[00:18:04]>> Yes.

[00:18:04]>> Endlessly say thank you.

[00:18:06]>> Yes. Yes. That's true. That's true. Just common manners.

[00:18:09]>> Yes. Just common manners. That's actually something I realized too cuz Muganda as well and I didn't know all of these things generally but they're taught yeah as a child as you're saying even if you do grow up abroad with Ugandan parents like I did like and Canada's also very similar Canada's they're very thank you thank you everyone's very manners everyone's very yeah so I didn't feel like I had to adjust in that way but I realized that I'm a very impatient person just naturally so now with things like stay in office there's pleasantries of hi how are you Yes. And I'm like, let's just get to the point. 1 hour meeting.

[00:18:43]>> You are just like me.

[00:18:45]>> We just need to move.

[00:18:46]>> People, you know, uh the other thing that shocked me and I think your your viewers are going to say, "My god, this woman is crazy." You go to these meetings.

[00:18:57]>> Do you know how in North America we separate religion from government?

[00:19:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you go to these meetings here and they start with prayers >> which I've always wondered how because there's different religions in the same room. So I never Yes. I always wondered how do you start a prayer in Christianity when someone else is a Muslim there the other one is a baha the other and so oh you didn't you see that shocked me >> I'm going to say the same as well and I still don't know the entity because to me I'm like how does that work cuz then how do you respect now are we also now going to do a prayer in like in Islam like how does that I don't know >> yeah so that shocked me because first of all it brings in a lot of to me there's a bias that's why we call it hidden bias.

[00:19:44]>> Um so how how does the other person feel?

[00:19:47]>> That's what I've always wondered and then I just keep quiet with my prayer me and Jesus but I'm like but now we're that that's not fair. That's not [laughter] >> it is okay to pray but not to pray you know come out. Yeah that's a good point.

[00:20:01]That's a great point.

[00:20:02]>> And also talking about time that's those are the things that waste the time instead of getting on with what got you there. you are in in pray half the time and you know you have one hour cuz you have another meeting after >> so I've started meeting saying I have another meeting [laughter] >> at that such and such time so that people acknowledge you don't have my whole day like I have [laughter] something >> yes yes yes >> it's so funny I had forgotten about the prayer thing and it happens literally every day like pretty much [laughter] >> it happened every meeting every meeting they have to pray >> they must think I'm a like a heathen or something cuz all my meetings I start I just start I'm like okay everyone knows each other okay let's just begin [laughter] >> exactly yeah I mean I would say if you if you are new to the meeting or if everybody's new you you can have a minute for everybody that's good so that people know who is in the meeting but this thing of doing the prayer and then after the prayer then everybody introes them everyone wants to say something about yes and then there's tea in another room and then you go and get that and I know you know everyone wants to talk about every single title they have as well. And I'm like, we don't have time. By the time we start this meeting, we'll be halfway through. [laughter] >> Yes. So, the wasting of time is a shock for diaspora.

[00:21:17]>> Yeah, it is. It is.

[00:21:17]>> Because you are used to going and getting on the point and then you leave cuz people are not interested in you really.

[00:21:23]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:23]>> They're interested in what you are bringing to the table.

[00:21:26]>> That's true. That's true. [laughter] >> So, that's true. Do you ever still feel like a foreigner at times?

[00:21:34]>> A lot of times I feel like a foreigner.

[00:21:36]>> Me too. Of course.

[00:21:38]I there are lots of things that go on that I am not trying to to brag, you know, to brag or whatever. There are lots of things that I don't understand.

[00:21:46]>> And those things that I don't understand are things that are normal here.

[00:21:51]>> Yes.

[00:21:51]>> They are normal to everybody.

[00:21:53]>> Uh and me they are sort of strange.

[00:21:56]They've become strange because I've stayed away for too long >> for Okay, makes sense. Yes.

[00:22:01]>> Okay. That's fair. That's fair. I've always, as someone had mentioned a while back to me like, "Do you are you fully Ugandan now?" And I was like, "I don't think I'll ever be like I'm still Canadian as well. You could see it. You can hear it."

[00:22:13]>> Right. [laughter] Right.

[00:22:14]>> And I'm I'm proud of that. It's okay.

[00:22:15]It'll always be a mesh. And I'm fine with it.

[00:22:18]>> It is. It [laughter] It is okay. It is okay. If if I need to know something that I need to do, for example, when I go to cultural things like a burial or the introduction, yes, >> I I always ask people what I'm supposed to do when I get there because I I don't know. I don't have a clue. And so, so they tell me that when you get there, you do this or you sit there or you do that or you don't talk or you talk that sort of thing. And then I'm then I'm >> very good. Yeah. Me too actually. And I actually like cultural u whatever we have. Yeah. functions and stuff.

[00:22:50]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:22:51]>> It [laughter] was nice.

[00:22:52]>> Yes. [gasps] >> So now, um, could you talk a little bit about expectations from family when you came back here? Were there any specific expectations you had to deal with because you had lived away for so long?

[00:23:02]Uh, or were they pretty understanding and receptive?

[00:23:05]>> That one is is um is a little bit complicated >> because my family >> is a is a bit [laughter] is a little bit different.

[00:23:14]>> It is different than the everybody's everyday family. That's true. And there are lots of families like mine in Uganda.

[00:23:20]>> Yes.

[00:23:21]>> Where we were born in Kenya. My father and mother were there. We were born unlike you who was born in Canada. We were born here. But then my father shipped all of us. Yes.

[00:23:32]>> To England.

[00:23:33]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:23:34]>> So it is like we grew up in England. We were here. I was I left here when I was 18.

[00:23:39]>> Okay. Okay. Okay.

[00:23:40]>> Yeah. So but the others didn't live when they were that old.

[00:23:43]>> Yeah. They were younger. Okay. So we all grew up outside of Uganda.

[00:23:48]>> Mhm.

[00:23:49]>> And my parents were there here, they would come and visit.

[00:23:53]>> Mhm.

[00:23:55]>> And my parents whenever we came to visit, nobody ever sort of forced us to to learn this, to learn that, to learn because it was always a short vacation and then you go back and and and you know, >> so when I came here as a person, as an an individual, >> Yes.

[00:24:15]I didn't know that people were going to expect anything from me because I was my mind my whole body my mind was more American or European >> and I was just going to carry on as an American.

[00:24:30]So and I keep telling people don't tell me that I'm an American and they get offended.

[00:24:35]>> They get offended that is okay >> but that is what I know.

[00:24:42]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:24:43]>> Yeah. Y >> that is whatever I'm doing is what I know >> is what I know >> and that is what I've been doing for the last so many years.

[00:24:50]>> Yes.

[00:24:51]>> Yeah. And I'm very lucky because when I grew up in England I was totally assimilated in the English culture.

[00:24:57]>> Mhm.

[00:24:57]>> So when I go back to England I'm just like an English woman.

[00:25:00]>> Yes. Oh, I love that.

[00:25:01]>> You know I everything. I know the culture. I know the I know how you you should look. I know how you should sit.

[00:25:07]>> Like you fully understand.

[00:25:08]>> Yes. Because the the English people are very very very strict with their culture. And you said it was more similar like here with them because obviously colonizing. So it was a soft landing. Yeah, it was soft landing.

[00:25:20]>> That's nice.

[00:25:21]>> So but when I came here and then people come to you and then they I mean they come and visit you once because they know now you've come.

[00:25:28]>> Mhm.

[00:25:28]>> And then when they go back now that they have visited you once then they start calling you for you know I was I'm going to hospital and I don't have any money.

[00:25:38]I am I want to come and visit you but I don't have money for transport >> or someone died and you know we need to collect money for this >> then there's a wedding something something and then those things were those those things >> were quite a shock to me >> were you okay okay okay >> it is one of the one of when I was to list shock >> yes yeah that was one of them >> yeah that's fair >> because family you were talking about what you the family they are you know you come and it is like to a bank.

[00:26:09]>> Yeah. And everybody is family.

[00:26:12]>> Yes. [laughter] Everybody in North America like you have your immediate nuclear family and everyone's family friends or whatever. Everyone's pretty independent. They got themselves so it's fine. Right. But here it's like now this >> everybody has and you know the the thing people don't and I think >> these things will of course will come up in the next 1,000 years but >> in North America, United States and Canada when someone dies and you sort of feel like you are going to give them $500 or $100. Do you know that money is tax deductible?

[00:26:47]>> Yes.

[00:26:47]>> In North America it is tax deductible.

[00:26:50]So you know that you are giving that money but you can always put it on something that you donated >> a donation. Yes.

[00:26:56]>> So here you are just giving.

[00:26:58]>> Yes.

[00:26:59]>> You know what I'm saying? You are just giving money. [laughter] >> So the direction I thought you were going to go was um how for example um I was part of a networking community.

[00:27:09]There's many of them here. Rotary BNI all these ones.

[00:27:13]And um every time something happens to anybody, there's this now welfare group and everybody is now give this give this to contribute. And I think culturally it's a beautiful thing culturally when someone can. But now if you're in a group with like 50 people every week there's going to be something going on for someone and it's this assumption that you must always give. And it's beautiful if you can like I said but not always. And you're right, it's not tax or you're not keeping track of the fact that if it can be taxdeductible. Maybe it can. I don't know. I've never I haven't done fully looked fully into it, but it's it's a lot. It's a lot is the point I'm trying to get to.

[00:27:51]>> Yeah. [laughter] So, um I I yeah, I belong to Rotary >> and um and I told them from the beginning because there's also, you know, as you say, collection of money and blah blah blah, which is fine. their community you know it is a fantastic thing to fantastic so on and so forth but I told them and some of them didn't understand this but maybe now they understand when they look at you when they watch [laughter] this >> I have to give my money through Rotary International in United States because Rotary International United States gives me a receipt that I donated this money and then I can report that money to the intern to the internal revenue service of United States so that they can give me back some of that money.

[00:28:36]>> Yes.

[00:28:36]>> Through or they give me a benefit for the fact that I cut off something.

[00:28:41]That's why I do that. It is not because I I want to show off that I'm American or whatever. It is because I earn American money. I don't earn money in Uganda.

[00:28:50]>> Right. So, it makes more sense.

[00:28:51]>> I need to Yeah. I need to be, you know, >> I didn't I've never known that. We haven't had that conversation on this channel. So, that's a good thing you've brought up. Thank you.

[00:28:58]>> Yes. Yes. You need to watch your money because you are a United States or Canada and your taxes are paid there and therefore you need to know how to pay taxes or not to pay taxes. [laughter] >> Either or. But I need to you need to be smart about it. Yeah. Right. No, I didn't realize that. Okay. That's much smarter. So that's a great point to bring up especially anyone who's are here or thinking about coming here. Yes.

[00:29:21]>> Yes. Like we're not obviously saying don't give. You should give but give smart like smartly. Give smartly. I do know that the church I attend, they always say to write your name and everything so that they can give you the receipt back for tax purposes. We're just not organized here. So, nobody knows this. Like, they're an organized church, so it works that for that. But like, yes, situations or um I don't know, networking communities.

[00:29:45]>> I I don't think they're that organized.

[00:29:47]So, all these things you have to do every week to give into >> where is it going? You don't know. Yeah, I get it. It's not tracked. And also it is very difficult to um it isn't very difficult the in United States we have a system where you can always report the taxes the the money that you are earning in a foreign country and how you pay taxes on that >> but I I looked it is too it's too complicated >> complicated yeah >> so I rather if I give I give when I give here >> that is to me that is called I I consider it as lost money >> yeah I just give it yeah >> which is very okay and I think also what I learned too in these groups cuz always be in them. It may not be in a networking group. It could be, I don't know, something that you're part of and then they have you end up growing a community in that community. They have a welfare bit where they're like, so and so has lost this, so and so has had a baby, so and so has done whatever. And I've always said I'll always give out of the kind of a kindness of my heart between me and that individual. I do not care to be in a WhatsApp group that counts. Has have you pledged? How much you pledged? I'm like, no, [laughter] >> those ones keep me out of. I was like, "Respectfully, please do not add me to the host."

[00:30:54]>> Yes.

[00:30:55]>> Yeah. It's a bit weird. [laughter] >> Yes, it is.

[00:30:58]>> Yes.

[00:30:59]>> Okay. So, I want to talk a little bit about the fact that I believe returns are not trying to show off or anything like that. And I think sometimes some people might I I've seen comments that it can come off as such.

[00:31:10]>> Yes.

[00:31:11]>> So, why do you think um returns are sometimes viewed with suspicion? Um and then I think again there's a lot of say ideas or something maybe through exposure that you've realized from say workplaces or whatever abroad that you now bring here and it may not be easily received. Do you feel like you've seen that?

[00:31:30]>> There are lots of things that you come with from the diaspora that are not that are not received well here.

[00:31:37]>> One of them is the one we talked about being on time.

[00:31:40]>> Yes, that's true. starting meetings on time and just starting meetings as meetings as opposed to all these other things that is not received well if you you are to talk about it.

[00:31:49]>> Yeah, that's true.

[00:31:50]>> Not giving is not received well because they don't understand your repercussions as a diaspan. Now we have to understand that diaphas are not all the same.

[00:32:01]>> We have I suppose we have we might have three categories of diaspans. M >> there's a there's a diaspan like you who was born in Canada or in North America or in Europe >> and you basically not a Ugandan but you are Ugandan by by uh by birth. Yeah.

[00:32:18]Yeah. Descent. Yes. By descent. Yeah.

[00:32:20]>> You are not by birth.

[00:32:21]>> Yeah. Not by birth.

[00:32:22]>> And therefore you love Uganda. You say and there are lots of them. I have also all sorts of nieces and nephews that want to come back here and they do.

[00:32:31]>> Yes.

[00:32:31]>> And they do exactly what you're doing.

[00:32:33]They get work and they work here and they are so different because they're basically not Ugandan.

[00:32:37]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Like I said, I'm Canadian.

[00:32:40]>> Yeah. [laughter] And so you can't expect them to start now picking up this culture that they >> immediately. That is one category.

[00:32:47]>> Then there's another category of people who go abroad to just find jobs.

[00:32:53]>> We have a lot of those in United States who just come and they do any job.

[00:32:57]>> Right. You just want to work at money.

[00:32:59]>> Yeah. And they most of them don't have work permits. Most of them don't.

[00:33:03]>> Yeah. They don't get work permits in Uganda to go to work in United States.

[00:33:07]No, >> they come as visitors and then they go and get a job. It's okay. They can go.

[00:33:11]As long as United States doesn't check them out, it's fine. They can go and that category is also there.

[00:33:17]>> That's true.

[00:33:18]>> Now that category works for their money.

[00:33:20]They send all their money here. They build houses and maybe they look after their families and so on and so forth because they don't have an investment in United States.

[00:33:28]>> Right. Right. Right. Right.

[00:33:30]>> So that is that one. Then there's another another category of people who come as students.

[00:33:35]>> They come back here, they go there to school, then they come back and they have they they immediately fit into the culture because they know they didn't go to United States to stay.

[00:33:43]>> Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:33:45]>> Then there's a c there's this category that I fall in >> where I went to I went you know I was living in Europe and I went to United States and then I got to United States.

[00:33:54]I became an American. I worked for the United States government which is a big deal for a foreigner. Very big. Um and and then I and then I said, you know, I I went all over the place in United States. I went to Florida. I went I even came to Ottawa, Canada to see if I could retire in because I like there's something I like about >> Ottawa. It's slower organized. My sister went >> and the government is right there.

[00:34:20]>> Yes. Yeah, they're right there.

[00:34:22]>> So I I went and checked everywhere.

[00:34:24]>> So I said, >> "Let me see Uganda." I had never ever thought of coming to retire. Never.

[00:34:31]>> And not only that because every time I came here there were problems. There was no they were you know they were still going through course.

[00:34:39]>> Yeah. And I said no. So my last thinking was that I was going to retire in south of France.

[00:34:45]>> Oh yes. I remember you telling me this and I thought I was like wow.

[00:34:48]>> Because I I even now I love the south of France. It is very very expensive.

[00:34:52]>> Okay.

[00:34:53]>> But it is very very leadable if you are if you have the money. Right.

[00:34:57]>> And if you can do the immigration thing, it is very very complicated.

[00:35:01]>> Yeah, that's what I've heard.

[00:35:02]>> Very very very complicated.

[00:35:03]>> That's what I've heard. Yeah. [laughter] >> To migrate into France as a normal person. The other ones who are just walking in those are different. Yes.

[00:35:10]>> For me when I came here because I was working for the civil service. I was a civil servant and I came here and I would see all sorts of things going on and I'm like wow how does that work? How can they do that? There were all sorts of things that I wanted. I wish I could go and advise somebody that you know there's an easier way of doing this without wasting money or without even >> but I couldn't do it.

[00:35:33]>> I can imagine.

[00:35:34]>> Yes. I couldn't do it and I still can't do it.

[00:35:36]>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:37]>> Yeah. Because people don't like to be told, >> oh no, you should do it like this instead of this. This is a country >> anywhere in the world. Let >> anywhere in the world. It is a sovereign country. They do their thing the way they and they love it that way. So that's fine. That's fine. But mine mine was so different because first of all the first two years I was here >> I wasn't supposed to be involved in anything.

[00:36:01]>> Okay.

[00:36:01]>> In this country, >> okay, >> because I was I was a former employee of the United States government.

[00:36:06]>> Oh. So for Oh, that's like a rule.

[00:36:08]>> Yeah. You have to Yes. You have that and >> you have the they have you know you can't just sort of come here and then you join this you know you join NRM or you join or you join or whatever. That makes sense. You can't do that.

[00:36:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:22]>> So, so that was so I spent the first two years very very >> low key >> just building my house and doing my thing going to and eat and go to you know that sort of thing.

[00:36:35]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:36:36]>> Um so by the time I finished those years I was sort of like not interested anymore because [laughter] I'm like you know what can I do?

[00:36:44]>> That's fair.

[00:36:46]>> What can I do? Nothing.

[00:36:48]>> Yeah. So, so that was that that is um >> it is very difficult but but I continued regardless of all that I continue to bring >> to I tried to find out a way I can bring my experience from us to US >> especially working for Yeah.

[00:37:05]>> Yes. And the way how can I tell these people, how can I help them? For example, I mean, you know, I mean, as you know, I was working for national, the last job I did was National Science Foundation >> and we were funding scientific research and I know the universities all over Africa. They need funding.

[00:37:23]>> Yes, >> I continued to attend meetings, you know, different countries while I was here. I would go to these meetings and, you know, we try to find money for guys to do whatever they want to do. But I also wanted to do more for for my Kennedy University for schools here. But it isn't that easy.

[00:37:40]>> Oh, and I always thought maybe there would be an easier segue. Not easy, but somehow because of your former >> Yeah, it that's what I thought.

[00:37:48]>> Worked before >> because I I know exactly what they need to do to get the money that they need for their research, >> right? Because I was the networks, the connection to be able to do that from there.

[00:37:58]>> But it is not that easy.

[00:37:59]>> Oh, wow.

[00:38:00]>> So I said, you know what? Instead of getting all frustrated >> and doing all this, >> I I just live my life and enjoy the sunshine and the organic food >> which is so sad because that's such valuable knowledge to tap >> and then when you are gone yeah I know I know >> that's frustrating.

[00:38:16]>> I know I know >> I understand [laughter] you know >> well let's segue into the next question which was what returnees can do to contribute when they're here if there's no red tape and roadblocks.

[00:38:29]So whether that's >> they can contribute a lot they can contribute a lot like I can talk about myself I could have contributed a lot >> but >> the red tape and the >> I suppose the culture the >> the work ethics and >> culture always intervenes.

[00:38:47]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:48]>> It intervenes.

[00:38:49]>> That's true.

[00:38:50]>> Um we very much want to help. We very much want to I was doing this for free.

[00:38:55]I wasn't like going to go and ask him gave me money to do this.

[00:38:59]>> That's even more amazing >> because the very fact that I was a retire from US government I have to report that money.

[00:39:05]>> Yeah. Regardless, let me just do it for free.

[00:39:08]>> So it is better for me to donate the time which is not you know money monetary >> and but it is not easy.

[00:39:15]>> Wow. Okay. Yes. Well, I did a little bit where I um whenever I went to these conferences, I would I would find out whether there are any students in at Mer at Nairobi University, at DALM University that would that I can help to get some funding to attend these >> those things. Okay. Okay.

[00:39:33]>> And I've done that.

[00:39:34]>> That's good.

[00:39:35]>> I've done that. But then also to get those those kids is not easy.

[00:39:40]>> Yeah.

[00:39:41]>> Everybody everybody's like, "Oh, um oh um and I'm like I don't have time. I need to get these names and I need to do >> ASAP just like get it to me. Ah, okay. I see. Now what about from the view of investing?

[00:39:54]>> Investing. I would tell every diaspan this is on the diasan side. They should all try to invest in Africa. They should all try to invest in Uganda.

[00:40:04]>> Yes.

[00:40:05]>> The reason being that Africa is the upcoming >> um what is the word I'm looking for?

[00:40:12]Africa is going to be the the go-to place in a few more years to come because Africa still has natural resources.

[00:40:19]>> So many most of the ones the world relies on. [laughter] >> Africa like Uganda and Uganda has surplus food. I look at I go to to Nakas and I see all these food that is actually there wasted.

[00:40:32]>> If I had money, if I had the power, I would just go to those women [laughter] and say give me all those oranges.

[00:40:38]avocados and I've put them in a warehouse and clean them >> and to the standards of United States or whoever and ship them out.

[00:40:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's >> and those people would get money but um you know small things at a time >> right they do they do take some time and it's one thing I always used to say like we're we're a bit behind which is an advantage but it's a frustrating advantage. It's like it's a good thing because you're right it's a good time to tap in but it means that things will just be slower.

[00:41:06]>> Right. So the diasporans can come here and and a lot of them have tried because I've attended a number of um conventions in United States and Canada. We have business meetings both in USA and >> Canada and there's so many that are growing >> those and they are Ugandan run.

[00:41:22]>> Mhm.

[00:41:22]>> And people are so interested to come back and invest.

[00:41:25]>> Yep. Yep.

[00:41:26]>> But the the red tape >> Yeah. You know there's no I have a friend who used to work for the Uganda Investment Authority. Mhm.

[00:41:36]>> I can mention her name. She's Dr. Margaret >> Blick Chig Gozi. She helped a lot of diasporans.

[00:41:43]>> Oh yes, >> she did by explaining the whole system here and telling them not to be scared and telling them, >> you know, showing them the ropes.

[00:41:51]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:41:53]>> Of how to invest. And I think a number of them did. She she has her own story to tell.

[00:41:58]>> But um that one I saw with my own eyes.

[00:42:01]>> She did a great job.

[00:42:03]>> That's so amazing. this country should be very proud.

[00:42:05]>> Yeah, that's amazing. I know I've seen her speak um so I do know a bit of the story and the background. I was like that's amazing like to segue a lot of people to be like I just shared these videos and I'm like do as you please with the videos [laughter] >> but to be able to be in a position to handhold people and be like here try this go here and people to trust you in that. That's an that's like the next step. Like that's amazing. That's amazing. [laughter] >> Yes.

[00:42:30]>> Okay. Okay. And then my last last question for you in this video is how Africa can better welcome returnees. I guess that talks about what can they do better with these red tapes. Can we just get rid of them? [laughter] >> I don't know what you what what Africa or Uganda can do better with retainers.

[00:42:47]The thing that we who come back here the only the most important thing that we need in this country >> is of course security as we had.

[00:42:57]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:42:58]>> Security of course. I mean in in North America you can leave your door open.

[00:43:03]>> Yeah.

[00:43:04]>> Go to work for 8 hours and come back and you'll still find it open.

[00:43:07]>> Yeah. Generally, especially if you're in suburban areas, do be wide open. It'll be fine. [laughter] >> That is one.

[00:43:15]>> What the other thing that Africa can do, each country in Africa should do is to have >> workable medical services.

[00:43:23]>> Yeah. Because I'll tell you myself, every time I have something serious going on about me medically, I have to pick up a ticket and go back to Virginia, go back to Washington DC to see my doctors.

[00:43:36]>> And it's the fact that that's the case in most of the countries this continent is quite sad.

[00:43:40]>> That is that is very very very very important to dias and that's why a lot of them come here, they settle, they think they've settled, but then they tend to go back.

[00:43:49]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:50]>> Because of the medical system.

[00:43:52]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:53]>> Um these other things the roads and so those are minor I mean you know you can suffer the dust and so on and then you time comes and you say ah I can't be bothered and you know uh but but medical services >> and um what else did I say now?

[00:44:11]>> Yeah. know medical services I think is one of the biggest because I remember when I started this channel was just showing things and showing places and people kept saying like oh can you interview someone from a um hospital or a doctor just to talk about like the why like why you know and we do know the obvious reasons obviously it's the lack of investment within but I mean the fact that everybody has to fly out is should be the biggest >> red flag of like >> something has to change >> and you see the problem is with that flying out People fly to India. They fly to South Africa, you know, Turkey and I don't know where else. But >> it is the the Ugandans and Africans should know that your African doctor knows more about you. Exactly.

[00:44:56]>> And can help you more if he has the facilities to be able to do it, >> you know. So that is that is one of the biggest problems we have coming back.

[00:45:08]It's quite quite annoying.

[00:45:10]>> Yeah.

[00:45:11]Well, if the medical services were good, we would be we would be fine here.

[00:45:16]>> Yeah. Yeah, we really would. We really would >> because the other things can you can tolerate the other things and and the other things are developing. I see that they're building roads. They're trying to work hard on roads.

[00:45:26]>> Oh, the roads are finally getting there.

[00:45:27]I'm so happy.

[00:45:28]>> Yes. Yes. [laughter] >> As someone with a low car, I'm like, "Yay, finally."

[00:45:32]>> Yes. Yes. And is there any way that like is there maybe you can touch on either community support or make it easier for people to invest? Is there anything that you've noted where you're like, "Oh, this is an area that you know we can improve."

[00:45:46]>> In Uganda, you can invest almost in anything.

[00:45:50]>> Community service in Uganda, you can almost you can just walk out there and there's community service.

[00:45:56]>> True. Um because there are schools there are 10 million schools in each and every >> there's so many schools district that need [laughter] help.

[00:46:06]>> There's so many >> there are little clinics everywhere that need help.

[00:46:09]>> That's true.

[00:46:10]>> There are people who are who are disabled on villages they've never seen a wheelchair.

[00:46:14]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:15]>> Yeah. And and they walking on this whatever.

[00:46:18]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:18]>> Um there are kids who who might need school fees. And I'm not saying do this um hand out thing. Mhm.

[00:46:26]>> But you can always go and out after a child and that child can be your own responsibility >> and and give them the school fees and so on because you know it is tough for them >> and we can't say well their government should do this. Yes, their government should but if their government doesn't >> you help.

[00:46:42]>> We have a social responsibility as human beings just to help fellow human beings.

[00:46:46]>> It is our responsibility [laughter] to to help our people >> our own people. Yeah.

[00:46:50]>> Yeah. M >> so there's a lot of investments that people can do in this country. Almost everything in Uganda can be invested in.

[00:46:57]>> Yes, that's true.

[00:46:58]>> But the core thing that I can tell our diaspan who is not >> who is scared to come back here >> is to invest in real estate.

[00:47:07]>> I love that cuz I was going to ask you for one piece of your final piece of advice as we wrap up the video.

[00:47:13]>> Uhhuh. So real estate.

[00:47:14]>> Invest in real estate because you don't have to be here to manage your real estate. There are companies there. Yes, now there are thankfully >> and you can build it you but you have to come and be there supervised.

[00:47:26]>> Yeah, you need to see you know there are issues involved with leaving stuff to so and so to do. So you do your thing once it is finished if you are lucky you find a good >> management company. Yes, >> they manage it for you. But if you are also very lucky and you have a niece, a a cousin, a person who is really really really trustworthy.

[00:47:49]>> Yes, I'm sure >> that is that is the cheapest way to do it.

[00:47:52]>> That's true. Yes, that's true.

[00:47:53]>> Because they can come and man, you know, see what is wrong and then they can look after the >> That's true. Cuz it could take some time, but one thing is for sure when you find a very good person, they're trustworthy, they're hardworking and everything, it's like you've hit gold.

[00:48:07]Like you're like so lucky you're good.

[00:48:09]Yeah, that's true.

[00:48:11]>> So, [laughter] yeah. So, real estate is good because you can go back in United States or Canada and see it in your on your patio and your money is coming in.

[00:48:19]>> Yeah. And you're still good to go.

[00:48:21]That's true. That's That is true. Like worldwide, everyone's always like real estate. I'm like, yeah.

[00:48:25]>> Right. Right. Real estate.

[00:48:26]>> Thank you so so much for coming on to talk about this topic. I know we have a couple of more to do in the next couple of videos. I'm very excited. I love interviewing and I know we were supposed to do this like a few years ago, so I'm happy. [laughter] >> I'm happy we're back. So, thank you so much.

[00:48:42]>> Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:48:44]>> Thank you. So, u if you guys want any information about what um she's up to, I'll put it in the description box below. Again, thank you guys so much for watching and I'll check you in my next video. Bye guys.