Pride Month ‘26 • Saving Face (2004)

[00:00:08][music] Welcome to the sentimentalists. [music] Noun plural.

[00:00:16]Definition: Those whose love for movies runs [music] so deep they can't help but do a podcast about them. Hosted [music] by Colton Robertson and Joseph George.

[00:00:30]>> [music] >> Hello everybody and welcome in to the sentimentalists where today we continue our celebration of Pride Month with Saving Face. It originally premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival or TIFF on September 12th, 2004. Written and directed for the screen by Alice Woo. I'm Colton Roberts. I'm joined by Joseph George. What's up, homie?

[00:00:54]>> Oh, what up? What up? Always a pleasure to be here. Oh, and it's always a pleasure to have you. And uh I was so excited to show you another uh another gay movie.

[00:01:02]>> Uh I love I love I love these things.

[00:01:05]Can't get enough of them. Uh no, I uh I genuinely fell in love with this movie.

[00:01:11]I think it was last year was the first time I watched it. And so I had the benefit of having watched Twin Peaks. So I'm I'm deeply enamored by Joan Chen.

[00:01:19]And you know, Dee had came out the year prior and I thought that she should have been nominated for an Oscar for it. So then I just went back and dove into some other work of hers and this was one of the things towards the top of the list.

[00:01:30]Um >> god damn is this a good movie. How'd you feel on your first viewing?

[00:01:34]>> Yeah, this was uh kind of what more I think I expected with you know not that but I'm a cheerleader was like not what I was expecting last month but this is kind of more of a run-of-the-mill movie I guess if that makes sense or kind of the the the things I was looking for.

[00:01:51]And and yeah, I think strangely enough, I said, you know, I think on the rating last week, I said, you know, it I need a little bit more in a movie for me to truly kind of resonate with it or or to kind of feel more in this one, it has a lot more of that, like way way more of that, I think. Um like a lot more to say. There's a lot more re, you know, very real.

[00:02:13]>> There's a lot more going on. Yeah.

[00:02:15]>> Yes. And but interesting like I I think it it I I kind of eat my words a little bit with but I'm I think it it made me realize how much more I enjoyed But I'm a cheerleader because like this is a really really good movie. Uh and like I I think I I do still enjoy it more than I'm But I'm a cheerleader. Um but it's like it wasn't uh it just kind of surprised me that like I I don't think I I think I I want to backpedal that a little bit that I don't think a movie needs to quite you know actually go quite further. That that was actually a lot more enjoyable than than I once thought. So that just kind of a uh but I'm a cheerleader tangent uh declaring last.

[00:02:48]>> No, that's okay. I mean that is the only movie we have for reference so far this month as we've celebrated Pride Month so far. So yeah, uh I can't blame you for going to that one toone comparison there. Uh you're you're right about this being much more down the middle is how I'd describe it. Um, >> I do think that the [clears throat] the sort of stereotypical formatting of the delayed gratification of a romance film where it's like, >> oh, they meet, they fall in love, there's obvious issues that are going to tear them apart. Now, the thing that this movie does that a lot of movies that feature gay couples do not, um, is it has a happy ending. Um, a lot of movies with queer couples do not work out. Um, I started this movie last night with Emily and she goes, "Is this going to be is this going to be a sad one?"

[00:03:42]You know, like that was kind of the cuz notoriously films specifically about lesbians end up tragic in some capacity.

[00:03:51]It's either and you know, you don't really know what kind of movie you're getting into. you know, you don't you don't necessarily like kind whenever the ending does come about and it is happy and it's like, oh yeah, here we are.

[00:04:02]Everything worked out, you're kind of like, oh, okay, [ __ ] yeah. You know, like it wouldn't have been super surprising for it to have taken a dark turn where some sort of tragedy befalls them and they they not they either can't be together or they refuse to be together or something along those lines.

[00:04:18]And so I I appreciate that it doesn't kill their gays, you know, uh thinking back to one of the most recent >> debacles in a show with no no problems I have otherwise basically like Andor.

[00:04:33]>> Um and I'm not going to spoil anything too too harshly, but god damn, what a terrible choice. You know what I'm saying? Like uh it's or a terrible way of going about it. Just just or no, I don't even know. But regardless, like I just love that this movie ends up being down the middle and you don't really you don't really expect it to be and that almost makes it subvertive in its efforts by being straightforward, which is strange. I don't know. I I really like I really like that about it, though.

[00:05:06]>> Yeah. It's just a like and I think going to the um Chinese family kind of stereotype as well just makes this point so much stronger. Like we watch but I'm a cheerleader and there's a bunch of different you know ethnicities, bunch of different family types in there. But I think like you know from Asia it is kind of very black and white on how their family feels and they will tell you straight to your face. You know there's no there's no uh you know games being played. It's it's very clear and and I think the you know like the father played the very stereotypical role you know of of you know you brought dishonor brought you know and I'm I'm going to be so embarrassed everyone's going to laugh at me [ __ ] >> you know put it at the end though and he's like you know I'm going to be there every day once the baby's born though you love he's still like I'm going to teach I'm going to teach that baby right which is still like uh you know he could have said that better you know but he's he's saying that just so he can be there every Well, and there's and I I really really appreciate >> this movie's depiction of unconditional love.

[00:06:12]>> You know, I think that there cuz it on paper it is presented with all sorts of conditions. Um, you know what I'm saying? And then >> and then things happen, life happens, tragedy strikes, >> and you realize what's important and you go, "Oh, >> I want my daughter in my life. Oh, I want my grandkid in my life. You know, like you you you look at those things and you go, that's actually what's important. You know, the the scene where Will's grandma dies >> happens right off of the scene where she says like the next the line right before we learn Will's grandma dies is maybe I shouldn't be your daughter then. So, in a matter of two minutes, >> in a matter of two minutes [snorts] on screen, Joan Chen's character loses a daughter and a mother. You know what I'm saying? Like, and is all of a sudden more alone than she's ever been in her life, even though she is pregnant. And you know, like there's there's nothing for her. Um, >> and you know, it takes her a second to wrap back around, but she does ultimately.

[00:07:21]you know, they get in the car and, you know, she's like, "She seems nice, you know, like." And she has so much of her father in her, you know, that she the the dishonor side of things feels too weighs on her too heavily. Um, or so heavily that she kind of says things she doesn't even believe. Um.

[00:07:46]>> Mhm.

[00:07:47]>> Yeah. Man, I I I love I love ultimately the resolution of the movie is incredibly fulfilling and moves me two tears. I love I love the end of the movie. It it gets me every time.

[00:07:59]>> Yeah. I was yelling at the end there, you know, kind of like whenever they were breaking up, you know, and I'm just like what? Like like I know you're not going to go to lunch, you know, you're not just going to throw your family away. Like I don't, you know, I'm not >> Yeah. You're not going to leave your mom who's about to have a kid and all this and just go to Paris. Yeah. like that's just not going to happen.

[00:08:17]>> Do that, you know. But I'm like, you know, at least tell her you don't want her to go, you know, at least be sad, show some emotion, you know, or like give give her some more, which is kind of all she was wanting.

[00:08:30]>> That's all she ever wanted was proof basically, you know, like uh >> whenever she shows up at on her birthday, way too late, and you know, she's like, "Can I come in?" And she goes, "I don't know." And she goes, "Okay." And then walks away. She's like, "No, what?" She's like, "Get your ass back here. That is not at all how this works." Um, and I love I love that Lynn Lynn is the actress. Viven is the character. Uh, has a chance to uh teach her, you know, kind of the way to be in a relationship. Um, >> yeah. And I love the amount of like crossover and kind of subliminal messaging where um Viven has a lot in common with Will's mom and Will has a lot in common with Viven's dad which I think is so funny. Like they are they are basically falling in love with their parents. Um >> okay. Yeah. which is a funny dynamic, you know, like at the end they they show Joan Chen's character bonding with Viven and, you know, they they've got similar tastes and they've got similar ideas and >> uh I love that, you know, both their moms set it up even, which I think is a lot of fun, you know. I love that, you know. Um >> uh >> I I and it goes a long way to redeem Joan Chen's character there at the end whatever cuz it's not that she strictly needs redemption cuz humans have a lot of facets and there's all sorts of stuff that you know and but that shows that she's an active participant in trying to help her daughter find her way back to the woman she loves instead of just being like I accept that you're I accept that you're gay. being like, >> "Yeah, >> you're gay and let me help. [laughter] >> Let me let me let me help make this happen for you because you are not doing it good enough on your own." Um, >> yeah, that's I was trying to think of another I I guess I don't have any too many romance movies under my belt, but a um kind of the a queer romance movie. I feel like the parents are involved, but only in the way to show how it's tearing up the family or how, you know, >> it's typically very negative. Mhm. And but this kind of having, you know, two love stories go side by side together where you don't even know who the other love is, you know? I think which is which is really funny. I thought like I I had the thought that it was like the old old guy kind of in the I'm like what if it's the that old [ __ ] I don't know why. I'm like who's the father?

[00:10:56]Like who's the father? And then like you know the daughter reads the note she thinks oh my god you know the age difference and I'm like yes. I'm like no way. And then so I get duped. I'm Yeah.

[00:11:07]And then so I get I I got full I'm like wait. So like I didn't actually see the the young guy coming up.

[00:11:12]>> No. And there's actually so much great little foreshadowing like little stuff where um whenever he sees her on the uh on the tracks, you know, and he like gives her medicine for for her mom and she's like, you know, uh I just want to make sure she's okay, you know, like here you go. Say hi to your mom for me.

[00:11:32]um like he he's repeatedly there. Um they even cross paths, Joan Chen's character and him at one point and he tells him he tells him, you know, say say hi to your father for me, you know.

[00:11:44]Um >> Oh, >> yeah. It's there's there's a couple little moments.

[00:11:49]>> The mom's not trying to set her up with it's like set her daughter up. She's just trying to get her daughter to feel more familiar and comfortable with her.

[00:11:57]Oh my god, that's insane. Yes. Like oh what? You're waiting on me now? like, "Oh, yep. Have to make sure you get on the train or whatever." And it's like, "Okay, okay." Now, this wow, that that's making sense. I guess I didn't think of that until now or going.

[00:12:12]>> No. Yeah. There's there's just a lot of Yeah. Like, it is it's very fruitful on rewatch for that reason, you know, and I think this was only my second viewing of of the film. like it wasn't uh it wasn't I'm not super overly familiar with this movie to the point that I remembered it having a happy ending but we get towards the end of the movie and you know I kind of whenever she like runs out of the ceremony um and doesn't say anything to anybody. I was like for some reason in my head I was like I thought she like ran away with him. What's going on? You know like what wait does this movie not end as happy as I remember? like she gets on the plane and she leaves and I'm like, "Wait, wait a minute. What?" You know, like I'm like, "Do I just completely misremember?" And no, I'm just I was skipping to the ending. Um >> the ending ending. Uh but uh yeah. No, I I love I love that it manages to keep you on your toes even though it does ultimately follow a very simple structure um >> and a and a innumerably done structure.

[00:13:17]like it's been done so much and it manages to do it about as good as I've ever seen it, you know. Uh and I appreciate that, you know, Alice Woo is not a super uh prolific filmmaker. Uh she doesn't she only pops out every, you know, like once a decade basically and makes a movie and that's that. Uh her most recent one was 2020 and I think that she only made one movie between Saving Face and that one which was called The Half of It. Um, so like three movies in 20 in 15 years or something like that, which is not a lot, you know. Um, >> but I appreciate that she had the wherewithal to recognize, again, going back to that sort of the tragedy that befalls queer characters all too often. um to go. We don't need another sad story here, [laughter] you know? Like, uh we we >> Where is the queer downthemiddle romcom?

[00:14:17]You know what I'm saying? Like, uh and this isn't just a romcom, but it's structured a lot like one and it is very funny and it has a lot of beats that make you laugh. Um but it's structured a lot like a typical romantic comedy. um >> they have the third act falling out and they find their way back together and you know like there's there's this invisible [snorts] wall that the characters are putting up not letting themselves fall in love with one another you know like that's >> that's classic romantic comedy stuff and uh I think that it it convinces you it's not that and that takes a really good movie I think you know to to make you think of it as higher and I don't want to dismiss the typical romcom or typical romance movie as lesser because it's not it can be done really well but this is a really really good example of how well it can be done you know.

[00:15:10]>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it it did feel it's weird to say that it does feel very normal and I do think that is largely a point they're going for like at the end whenever you know some of the family members leave um but most people stay um kind of at the end and and >> whenever they're kissing and dancing in the middle of the dance floor. Yes.

[00:15:30]>> And everybody they do that aerial shot where everybody's dancing around them like nothing's happening. I can't tell you how full that made my heart. Like that is just such a good shot to and like her uh Viven in the airport being like, "Kiss me in front of all these people."

[00:15:47]>> You know, her not being able to do it.

[00:15:49]>> I love that. And you know, obviously, would I have rather they had those three months? Would they have rather had those three months? I'm sure. But to kiss her in front of the people that matter, I think is more important. You know, >> made it so much better. I was like, "Ah, that was another scream at the TV of like, come on, you come on. You like you you got all the way here. You're at the airport. She's right there." You know?

[00:16:12]So, I was a little mad at the no kiss, but then, you know, and then I kind of felt like, "Okay, well, it's got to happen, right?" You know, and at one point I'm like, "Okay, well, well, maybe, you know, all this was between Viven and her was just a way that her and her mother can come to terms that she was gay and that like, okay, I'm not going to set you up with guys anymore.

[00:16:33]That this is like our life now. We're going to continue on. I thought, you know, her and Vivian, I thought she was truly, you know, going to go off to Paris four years, find another someone else, whatever, and just they'll be happy. It's La La Land, maybe." Uh, you know.

[00:16:46]>> Yeah, definitely. That's especially if you watch La La Land before you watch this, that's exactly where your head is.

[00:16:51]Like that precisely where my head was.

[00:16:54]>> I am traumatized by La La Land. You know, any romantic movie whatsoever, I am going to believe that it, you know, will not work out.

[00:17:04]>> It's not going to end up good, [laughter] you know. Uh >> yeah. So, a little maybe downer of me a little bit, but I guess yeah, that's that's at least where my mind was going.

[00:17:15]uh whenever she did take off and I'm like oh okay maybe you know it is just a a way for her and her mother to get closer but then yeah whenever you know she sees her across the dance floor and it's nothing else matters you know it's like it's these cliches but I'm like I'm like yeah this is this is what I live for in a movie moment you know this is this is what I want and and then yeah like the like yeah that aerial shot when the when the kids like run through and like you hear you know it's kind of I don't know if slow-mo, but kind of like it's it's uh the sound is definitely like, you know, they're overplaying kind of you're hearing everything at once, but I don't know, different layers and like the kids laughter I feel like was layered a little differently, so you heard it a little more. And I think it was just kind of like a um like this is the next generation, you know, obviously the old people left that couldn't handle it, whatever. That way is dying and they say the world's getting worse, blah blah blah. It's getting worse every year. But then you see that last shot and you're like, ah. You're like, no. Like, this isn't >> how can more love be worse.

[00:18:18]>> Yeah.

[00:18:19]>> You know, like that's just just fundamentally I love I love it for that reason, man. And I I whenever that ending does come around and even Grandpa is there going, "Well, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be around every day for that baby because who knows what'll happen if I let you two raise it, you know?" But like that is him going, "I want to be here. I want to be around you." And you know, they they're at a party with tons of people, tons of people in their family, you know, like that's not just a private event. That's just a few of them, you know. Uh and I love I love that. It's just a it it's sweet that >> this movie depicts a very real aspect of how difficult it can be for some people to accept sexuality in that manner. Um, >> but taking it a step further and going, but here's what it looks like on the other side once you do just go can't do anything. Can't do anything about it.

[00:19:13]Uh, you know, like that's just that's just the way it is, you know. Uh, like whenever she does officially come out to her mom and go, I love you and I'm gay.

[00:19:23]>> Uh, and Joan Chen's character says, "How can you say those two things back to back?" You know, how could how can you tell me you love me and throw that in your throw that in my face? I am not a bad mother. You are not gay.

[00:19:34]>> You know, um >> there's just an there's just such an obvious argument to that sentiment. But if somebody has that sentiment, there is no argument that's going to sway them.

[00:19:45]You know what I'm saying? Like it is it does unfortunately take something as massive as your [ __ ] mom dying. you know, like uh it it takes something it takes something that makes you realize what's important to go, "Oh, >> oh yeah, >> this is what's this is this is my daughter we're talking about. I should accept her unabashedly. I should accept her for who she is." D um >> Mhm. Yeah. It's and and I think that answer that she's saying, you know, like how can you say those two things back toback that she's uttering her parents' words there? I think, you know, very specific maybe 5050. I, you know, maybe not quite 50, but like, you know, she's the in between generation where I don't think she was ever truly gay, you know, or like I don't think that's the battle she was struggling with, you know. I don't know. Maybe >> there was that moment at the movie shop, you know, and then the the I I don't know like uh it was it just like ooh I've never been able allowed to watch these movies. I think it's just the taboo sort of aspect of it, you know, like uh the and again like even if you're not exploring your sexuality with like the same sex it it opening yourself up opening yourself up to the exploration of sexuality be it porn pornography or you know otherwise I think that those are important steps in the right direction for her. Ironically she's never had that freedom. She's never felt like she can and so she feels like this if if there's a time it's now, you know, and she even says that that much, you know, whenever she was like, "Why didn't you why didn't you just be with him?" You know, what what was the Sure, they would have talked, but why?

[00:21:20]She was like, "Well, I've never been single before."

[00:21:23]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> She was like, "Never been single before.

[00:21:24]I might as well see what's out there, you know?" I I uh >> I really appreciated that that aspect of it. And you you going back to like how it was like 50/50. It was her parents talking but also her and you know it takes her dad kind of looking at her and going you cannot be with him.

[00:21:44]>> Mhm.

[00:21:44]>> You know like that is I won't let that happen for her to be like oh that's stupid as [ __ ] You know like uh oh that's >> that that's what I sound like. Damn. You know like uh and sometimes you you need to be put in perspective like that. Um.

[00:22:01]>> Mhm.

[00:22:02]>> And I I really appreciated that >> like their the like party that we saw at the beginning or kind of like I don't know what the gathering necessarily was for. Uh just the kind of dance they had like it was family and then like some friends but like you could just tell >> community. Yeah.

[00:22:17]>> Yeah. They they had their very still closed circle though that like these are the only people they saw. They're all the same. They all have >> Is it somebody in our circle?

[00:22:26]>> Yeah. and and like so there's differences between them but art like most I don't know they all kind of have the same um like hive mind of sorts uh they they don't have any kind of external factors it seems and then and then this you know the mere oh my go you know a an an age gap where it's older or younger it's bad oh you're you're pregnant without being married that's automatically bad you're gay that's even worse you know we don't even speak of that so it's like I I mean there's all of these kind of pressures immediately but then that dance at the end it's largely the same people but it feels entirely different like I mean it's like there is just a >> a >> like every interaction is not I don't know for saving face like I think you know it is for for just they are being they they're there because they want to be there and it felt a lot more genuine at the end and I think that's all the barriers were down you know like I at the wedding it seems like everyone's crashing out and then it's like, you know, you want to divorce, divorce me right now. And it's like, no, I I love you. I love you, too, you [ __ ] idiot.

[00:23:31]I love you, dog fart. I love you. So, it's like, [laughter] oh, I don't It was a a train wreck of sorts, but kind of like a necessary one just to get the family to loosen up a little bit, it felt like. So, yeah.

[00:23:43]>> Yeah. Like, we've we've done we've done so much to try to maintain our reputation that we've forgotten who we actually are. like or you know and maybe we don't forget who we actually are but we certainly don't show it to people and at what point does that face become yours you know uh >> I so whenever it comes to this aspect of like Chinese culture and I mean every aspect of Chinese culture I only gather it from movies I'm not wellstied I'm obvious I mean and I mean you're listening in audio format I'm I'm not Chinese um you know so there's uh >> the only knowledge I've ever gleaned from movies about you know maintenance of reputation and you know the kind of generational trauma instilled from one one generation to the next >> via that uh is movies and one that I go to that we covered just earlier this year where it was about what will they think you know oh we can't let them see because what will they say d was in the mood for love um >> you know uh Thinking back to Tony Leong and Maggie Chong's characters in those in that movie where you know again you're dealing with obviously a little bit more similar to the Joan Chen younger guy scenario than the gay the the queer scenario. Um but uh it's that's what that's what makes it all level out though is the the forbidden the taboo the oh you're not allowed to.

[00:25:16]There is no difference. You know, there's uh there's levels to this [ __ ] but at what at what point do you go, there is no difference between those things, you know? It's all just loving each other, so why [ __ ] care? Um >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I used to I mean, one, I used to think I had everything figured out back, you know, when I was in major scientific brain mode and facts were the only thing I cared about. But, you know, now I think it I was so close-minded myself that I'm like, "Oh, yeah. No, I I know who I am. My thoughts are never going to change." So, like, you know, I understand there's other thoughts out there, but like I'm I've got my mind made up. And then now seeing how different of a person I am within just a couple years and then, you know, every year after that it changes. And then so like I feel like I I thought I was an open-minded person before. I actually do believe I am one now, but with hopes of only, you know, still being Yes. And never never being absolute. But but I think that's kind of like where just this, you know, you see it through the generations of this family sort of thing where where you do have the the grandparents that are, you know, very stern. They're they're speaking as kind of at least my grandparents, you know, even in today's I mean, this is, you know, not an old movie. I think that, you know, that what's being said here is still very very pertinent and sadly probably will be for quite some time to come. But but yeah, it's like the grandparents. I mean, man, I I like it's crazy to think of like some of the things my grandparents say out loud like still to this day. And it's like they're getting better, but it's so much harder for them because like that's just the world they grew up in. And it's just been so ingrained in them. Yeah. Well, and then the thing that hurts >> is seeing so many people adapt so easily.

[00:27:04]>> You know what I'm saying? is like, "Oh, >> it isn't that hard." You know what I'm saying? Like, it it it isn't that difficult. Um, you know, so like that is, you know, and I'm always going to and I can't I'm not saying this is something everybody should do. It's not something that everyone should make exceptions for. I'm always going to cut my par my my grandparents, the people I love. I'm going to cut them a little slack. You know what I'm saying? Um, even friends to a degree. You know what I'm saying? Like every once in a while someone will say something I'm like god damn you need to shut the [ __ ] up you know um I'm like no no no let's let's walk that back and let's figure out what so that is the difference though is that generationally >> I feel more capable of changing someone now's mind than someone who is my grandparents age's mind you know uh like that is the fundamental difference like my grandparents says something I'm going to go ah Ah, damn. Uh, >> friend says something, I'm going to go, "Ah, shut the [ __ ] up." You know, like, uh, there there's a difference. Uh, and I I >> one of the uh, speaking of friends, one of the best and most underrated characters in this movie is Will's uh, gay best friend, uh, the black guy, uh, next door. Uh, >> love that guy. Yeah, he's he was you know the the like uh cucumber or not the cucumber the whatever that face mask is that you always put cucumber your eyes with. What is that stuff though? That green like mud or green.

[00:28:42]>> Yeah, the clay. Yeah. Uh the clay mask.

[00:28:46]>> Um but now you know he's just chilling.

[00:28:49]>> What's his name?

[00:28:49]>> Jay. Yeah. Coming out. Uh, you know, he he's a lumpy one or so. What? Like, uh, yeah. What?

[00:28:57]>> That's Otto Asando, who I had no idea that's who it was, just because this is far and away the youngest I've ever seen him. You ever seen that clip of that guy going, "Jesus Christ, it's Jason Bourne."

[00:29:07]>> No way.

[00:29:09]>> Yeah, that's him. [gasps] >> What? Okay, that's kind of crazy. That is >> Jesus Christ, it's Jason Bourne. Yeah, >> it's Jesus Christ. It's Jay, but not actually. Jesus Christ, it's Ottawa Sando. Yeah. [laughter] >> Wow. Okay.

[00:29:25]>> No, I love I love him in this though.

[00:29:27]Like he is he is a really really fun aspect to the movie and a you know just again a really human presence. He's who some he's someone who will can confide in uh and you know call her on her [ __ ] a little bit every once in a while be like you know you're [ __ ] upright and she's like yeah and he's like okay good. You know like just a little bit like just thought I'd let you know. uh whenever Joan Chen's character is talking [ __ ] at the dinner table and you know about the soy sauce and uh he's like we should keep her, you know, like uh it's it's so funny, man. I I love that character and his presence. Um another character that I really like is Randy. That's the uh hospital associate of Wills who's just kind of, you know, >> an older an older character who I mean, I'm just going off of my previous understanding of the actress Jessica Heck. Um, she plays Susan and Friends, who is also >> uh gay, Carol's gay lover, Ross's ex-wife's gay wife. um you know uh that so I'm like I wonder if like text to text the connection I'm making is that she is an older lesbian you know like and she is and therefore she is living the life that Will is going to live you know kind of um >> the interaction between Viven's mom and dad at the end of the movie where you know well she just she just started doing this dancing thing and he's like thank god she's marrying a doctor you know like they're getting married that's so cute you know like uh just Little lines like that that makes me that makes me so happy. I love I love this movie.

[00:31:02]>> And yeah, like Vivian's dad whenever she pulls or pulls Will into his office and is like, "All right, you know, all right, well, I get what's going on here." You know, off the looks they just gave each other, he's like, "Oh, really?" He's like, "Okay, well, you're the reason."

[00:31:14]>> He's like, "Well, obviously I'm very smart, you know, like, uh, obviously I know stuff >> and you guys, she shows up, you guys look at each other. That's enough for me, okay? I know for a fact what's happening. Um well, and not to mention that Viven >> is much more open, I take it, about her sexuality. Um her mom is obviously very supportive. Doesn't have any qualms about it.

[00:31:40]>> Maybe her dad >> I I I don't take it that her dad does either, but she's obviously not like, "Hey, I'm [ __ ] one of the doctors at your office." You know, like uh you know, so like there is a there is a line there. Um, but you know, the second they lock eyes, he's like, he's like, "Oh, duh." And then he makes like that vague threat, but it's not really a threat.

[00:32:01]You know, it's just enough. He's like, "Uh, he's like, "So, you're the reason."

[00:32:07]>> Just want to make it clear that you're the reason. Yeah. You know, like, uh, >> he does ask that first. So, it was it out of a good place first, you know, like, "Do you love her?" And then he even she didn't even answer. And before he was like, "Okay, well, if she doesn't go to London, she's not going to find her true self, you know, or like see what her full talents are." And it's like, so it's like, "Okay." It was like, "Yeah, he was at least cool with her being, you know, I think he's okay with it, you know, maybe."

[00:32:33]>> No. Yeah. I don't think he has beef with the queerness of it all. No.

[00:32:36]>> Yeah. But the >> I think he has beef with the idea that >> she needs to be sure that she's somebody Viven can commit to comfortably if it's something that's going to keep her from reaching her full potential in that world, in that space, you know, um, as a ballerina.

[00:32:53]>> Mhm.

[00:32:54]>> Um, super disappointed that we don't really get to see her dance. I love I I I would love I love whenever movies do that, you Tick, Tick, Boom is one I go to. Um, where >> Alexandra Ship is a dancer and, you know, she's she's got great aspirations, but she she doesn't do it for the money.

[00:33:10]She just loves it. And we get to see her do it. I would have loved to have seen Vivian dance. That's maybe one of the only qualms I actually have with the movie.

[00:33:18]>> That's when the three month later title card was on, I'm like, we're in London.

[00:33:23]I, you know, I thought I thought we were there. we were going to watch her dance um or something like that and and then we'd be back. That's okay.

[00:33:32]I thought we'd go to or I thought there'd be so because I'm like okay I had my cope with you know Vivian like okay it's just so that her and her mom can get closer so like maybe her and Vivian are truly done but I'm like no I'm still wanting it you know I still need it at the end but yeah the >> I that would have been nice you know we we did get a cheer moment you know I guess last week you know we got the um stopping the whole show for the cheer >> three you're the one that I adore. Five, six, seven, eight. Don't give this up cuz this is fate. Uh, yeah. Oh, it's so corny. I love different movies completely.

[00:34:12]>> Well, and that's what I love about doing this every June. I know that we've only done it one June so far, but going back to the first >> the opening month that we did the podcast in the first place was June and we covered Love Lies Bleeding as a part of it on the uh anniversary of the Stonewall riots. Um, and looking at the slate of queer films that we have discussed, >> uh, Love Lies Bleeding, uh, queer, >> uh, I saw the TV glow, Moonlight, The Handmaiden, uh, oh, what was the other one that we >> Portrait of a Lady on Fire. That's how could I forget? Uh, but I'm a cheerleader. Saving Face. The idea that so many movies that are in this romantic vein and are queer, you would expect, how can we do this fresh so many times?

[00:35:05]>> Mhm.

[00:35:06]>> And the fact that all of them are so different and so able to sustain themselves and be completely individual.

[00:35:15]God, I love that. And and that's not going to stop over these next two weeks either with The Watermelon Woman and uh Tu Wong Fu. Those are those are deeply singular. Um and I I adore them. I adore them.

[00:35:29]>> Yeah. I like the you know it was our our career month last month. It was largely representative. I'd say it was you know but I it just felt even though we had two purely I guess women dominated movies. I don't know why it felt a little bit more men tilted or you know scaled. I like that it's kind of, you know, we're like purely kind of focusing on on the ladies this this month or it feels >> No. Yeah. Well, last year I did a I I did my best to make a healthy blend of sexualities. Um because last year I think what was it? The Handmaiden and Portrait of Lady on Fire were the bookends of the month. So, you did have two lesbian pieces. Uh I Saw the TV Glow was a trans piece and Moonlight and Queer were uh MLM films. So, uh, this year the the the line is that going into last year, a lot of the queer film I really loved was about lesbians. Um, and I didn't want to be like, every queer film I like is about gay ladies. You know what I'm saying? I like watching women kiss. No, that's that's not what I want. That's not the that's not the idea I want to get across. which is why the last film of this month is not about lesbians either. Even though we are spotlighting uh women filmmakers, I wanted a movie that was queer and directed by a woman that had men in it. I thought that that's that's a really really delicate balance that doesn't happen a lot. That was really hard to find. I uh and I love Tuong Fu, so it was easy to go with that. Um, but uh that's not a that's not a combination that happens a lot. Um, you know, cuz you write what you know, you direct what you know, and you know, a lot of >> there's not a lot of queer women or even straight or women in general writing about gay men. You know, that's not going to happen a lot. Um, so I I I just I really really I I wanted to seize that opportunity to kind of spread share the wealth a little bit. Um, >> yeah. And I think this was you who said this to me. I don't know in what context, but that kind of a forbidden love of any sort, but kind of more in the queer vein that it's revolutionary, the mere like fact of, you know, queerness or kind of going against the the trend like it it has this revolutionary spirit to it.

[00:37:52]>> And I think um I'm of the mind that being a woman is more revolutionary than being a man. Um it absolutely is. I'm I'm of the mind if queens are on the throne the entire time throughout history and you know we just had our fun playing with our swords out in the battlefield but actually let the I think that's actually what happened in history too you know like um I like largely like we believe all the kings were doing all this [ __ ] but like after seeing Napoleon and how like >> that iconic phrase you know behind every powerful man yeah you know like that's >> 100% there's some truth in that >> the queens were running the [ __ ] the whole time It's it's like a Ben Jesuit situation. They know they have it on lock, but they're not going to take the limelight on purpose, you know, so they can still have it on lock forever. And I still, you know, I think it's like a a beautiful thing. And and like the the I guess back to the revolutionary spirit.

[00:38:46]It's like a queerness is already revolutionary. I think being a woman is also more revolutionary. It's just the best of both worlds here. Like it's like it's such a good It makes my heart feel so good. And that's like my my open-mindedness. Like I used to um if I heard someone that had the opposing view of mine, I'd be like, "Okay, well, I'm going to tune you out and then counter with my point." You know, I'm not going to really listen to you. I'm just going to tell you what I believe next. But now it's like I see the I see beauty and like all the differences that we have like like >> perspectives are lovely. I can't in my mind I think there is a right answer to like letting people love each other and you know I think love just >> there is a fundamental there is a fundamental freedom >> being denied if you think otherwise. I I agree with that. So, but like who like you know there is someone or many people in the world that truly believe against that that do think that there are lines in the sand that are there and you know there I'm very very young compared to most of these people. Maybe there's something that happens in my life that makes me I don't think so, you know, but but then again, I can't say for sure, but but man, you know, I there's got to be some things that like are are seem to be like absolutes, but then I don't know, there's 50% of the population that thinks the other way. And I think that that's kind >> I think that that comes down to this idea that human rights are debatable.

[00:40:16]>> You know what I'm saying? the idea that certain inalienable rights which are completely ungovernable, you know, >> the way we feel.

[00:40:28]>> Yeah.

[00:40:29]>> If if you if you seek to control the way someone feels, I don't deal in absolutes off in in absolutes often, you are absolutely fascist. You know what I'm saying? like if if you go cuz that's intangible. It's not something you can control. And there's evidence of that time and time and time again. You know what I'm saying? Like uh >> Mhm.

[00:40:55]>> the difference between the way I feel about homophobes and the way homophobes feel about gay people is that I don't want to do anything to punish homophobes beyond social othering. You know, I think you should feel ashamed of yourself.

[00:41:15]>> Homophobes want gay people to not exist.

[00:41:18]You know what I'm saying? Like that's >> that's wrong. You know, like so I there does come a point where I'm like, yes, nothing is absolute, but there even that idea is not absolute. You know what I'm saying? Uh there's there's there's some stuff that's just like you have to be willing to draw a line in the sand, you know, and you have to have your principles. And while you should be open to ideas, um the more open-minded you are, the less that applies to you because you are already open to those ideas, you know.

[00:42:02]And if if you believe in equality, I believe in equality. I always think of uh that line in sinners whenever I say the word equality now, which is so funny. Oh sir, we believe in equality.

[00:42:16]Uh it always that delivery always killed me. But uh if you believe in that and you believe that you know love is love and there's nothing that can change that. If you believe that, you know, gender identity should be, you know, up to the person who's experiencing it and there's no if somebody tells me because again, this is not something I've experienced. I personally have never felt like a woman.

[00:42:45]>> You know, I don't believe I'm a woman.

[00:42:47]There's no aspect of myself that believes I'm a woman. I don't believe that I'm non-binary. But if somebody comes up to me who has been a male friend of mine my entire life and goes, "I've been I've been evaluating it and I realized recently that I am a woman. Go off, queen." You know what I'm saying?

[00:43:06]Like Yeah. Who the [ __ ] am I to tell you?

[00:43:11]Nah, that can't be true.

[00:43:13]>> Mhm.

[00:43:14]>> You know, like that's just >> Yeah.

[00:43:18]>> Either either that can't be true or you are mentally ill. That's such a vile response to that. That is such a vile response to that. And they love to use it as a means to act like they're empathetic. Like, oh, I just want to I just want to help you.

[00:43:34]>> No, no, no, no, no. [clears throat] >> Mhm.

[00:43:37]>> You do not want to help them. [laughter] >> You want to hurt them process. Admit that you're wrong. Admit that you are not normal. Yeah. That >> immediately alienating someone. Yeah.

[00:43:50]for feeling a certain way. Yeah, that Yeah, I can >> which I I I know I'm obviously translating a lot of this to the modern [clears throat] >> othering of trans people, which is, you know, 20 years ago that wasn't even close to being on the horizon, even though trans people have existed for a very long time.

[00:44:09]>> Yes, >> they weren't the hot topic of discussion until the last five, six, seven years.

[00:44:15]>> That pattern, you know, like the Greeks like in I don't know. This is not a new thing. Whatso I I wonder if it's truly just the medical um capabilities we have now. If that's like what's resp-sparked this this or if it's just the state of our country. I don't know. We just want to fight over anything. But like I I wonder why it is like such a uh it feels like people do think it is a a new issue or a very very uh it's only this last you know in our lifetime that this has been a thing. But you know >> that's just moronic uh and that's just not allowing yourself again not allowing yourself to be open to understanding you know and the fund like fundamentally the the the language that I cannot agree with is the idea that people think it's being forced on to them >> because >> yeah drinking turning the frogs gay I did drink water and that is how I became gay.

[00:45:22]Um, yeah. I I did I I drank fluoride and now look at me. I want to suck [ __ ] you know. No, I it's so the thing that's crazy to me is, and this is nothing new. There's nothing new about what I'm saying. Anybody with a a decent moral compass has already thought this. If it doesn't affect you, why the [ __ ] do you care?

[00:45:48]>> You know what I'm saying? Oh, it affects the children. It affects the future.

[00:45:54][ __ ] yourself. No, it doesn't. There have been trans people forever and now they are only comfortable, even slightly comfortable coming out because they have the slightest bit of support. You know what I'm saying? and like uh there is a glimmer of hope uh that they will be accepted where that door shut very fast.

[00:46:18]There was a uh incredible clip I saw that was a uh it was Alan [ __ ] and somebody else and they were talking about how uh dangerous it is to be queer now.

[00:46:32]>> Um and Allan [ __ ] was making the argument that like we've made such leaps and such progress. Are you telling me you don't feel accepted? and he was and whoever he was talking to, I wish for the life of me I could remember who he was talking to, but he said, uh, they they were just tricking us, you know, they lulled us out into the open and now >> here they go, you know. Um, and I don't believe that. I think that there is a there might be some truth to that in the Republican conservative idea of it. um where there's such a there was such a open acceptance to it that now there is this really really loud contingent that is just overwhelmingly hateful.

[00:47:19]>> Um and I don't believe that most people are like that. I don't I think that most people to be honest either a are perfectly fine with it or b don't care at all.

[00:47:32]>> Mhm.

[00:47:32]>> You know what I'm saying? I think that the amount of people who be don't care at all is like 60 to 70% of people, you know, and I have no statistic to back that up.

[00:47:43]I'm just like the amount of people I know who don't give a flying [ __ ] It's most of the people I know, you know what I'm saying? Like it's not like, oh yeah, gay people. Woo! You know, and that's a few of them, you know? I know even I mean I know like I try my best not to know anybody who's like anti-gay people. Um but most people are like I don't really care what your pronouns are. I don't give a [ __ ] You know like uh and it's not that you shouldn't care. I'm not saying that that's the that's the case, but I'd rather you not care than be against it. You know what I'm saying?

[00:48:22]Because why the [ __ ] does it affect you?

[00:48:24]and and like they're to play devil's advocate like to say that you can't have the opposing view feels dangerous, you know, because then are you ostracizing the people that do feel that way? And it's like my in my head the only right answer to that is like you have a religious view that that religion purely states in black and white that man and woman shouldn't be together. And like if that is truly your belief then then good on you know I'm not gonna I'm not going to change your mind because that you're I don't know that's a faith thing. But like even to those religious people if I just ask them you know like in your heart you know don't I know to say don't care of your god is like blasphemy and whatever but like just in your heart would you tell someone not to love another you know just no pronouns no anything you know like what gives you the right to tell someone not to love another like I think that that answer is different than just kind of the faith accepted answer and like I because like the >> I I see where the religious angle is is coming from, you know, it's it's been around for quite a long time. But like it it's just like and you can't get people to really just be like, "Okay, I'm just going to ditch my faith, you know, for for this sort of thing." But but there are many people that like I don't like there's a new testament I don't know like the things evolve as time goes on you know as the world changes I think you can you can change with it a little bit >> well it's also just being picky choosy also >> Mhm. It's like, [laughter] >> yeah, >> you didn't have sex before you got married, huh?

[00:50:10]>> Okay.

[00:50:11]>> You know, and some people they don't of alcohol.

[00:50:14]>> You haven't drank alcohol. You haven't drank coffee.

[00:50:17]>> You know what I'm saying? Like, uh, the the the the profound amount of sins committed every single day by the most devout of Christians.

[00:50:26]>> A singular time. Yeah.

[00:50:28]>> A singular time. And that's the thing, too. No sin is worse than any other, baby. [laughter] No sin is worse than any other. There's not levels to this [ __ ] Literally, according to the Bible, there is not levels to this [ __ ] >> There there just is.

[00:50:42]>> That you just sin. Um and like [clears throat] >> Mhm.

[00:50:48]>> Now I think there are worse sins, you know, like but I'm not God, you know, so what make what gives me the right to think that, you know? So like that again, like again, why do you care? Um, >> like see how happy this family was at the end whenever everyone was just like [ __ ] beautiful.

[00:51:04]>> We're just letting everyone love who they want to love. It is maybe a little weird you know if you wind the clock back and do the age calculator of whenever you know one was a but like you know no that that's the that is like the only love draw line in the sand that I can draw you know minor and adult you know or like that there there is a clear you know children are children adults are there is a difference between >> that is yeah that is the only that is genuinely the only thing that I'm ever going to be like >> you should die you Well, like uh that's uh it's one of the only things I'm radically >> radically against, you know. Um and >> and it's not radical to be against.

[00:51:46]>> I think maybe my most radical idea of the age number or or how to solve that.

[00:51:53]And like you can't do this in any country or any legal way but like in my heart it feels that it's like if and this is very dangerous very slippery slope but it's like if you just feel that they have reached that level of maturity like the family feels it I don't like it there there's just kind of this you can tell when someone is still a child a little bit you know I think there there is an age number that is way too low but then even now there are some like 18 19 even 20 year olds that still like I don't know they feel still like children and and like still >> and I think I don't think that that's just a now thing. I think that's probably just we are finally at the age where we can observe people like I'm in a completely different stage of life than people like Emily's sister >> and her husband are 27 and 28.

[00:52:51]Mhm.

[00:52:52]>> They um like they have a house, they have plans to make a family, you know, like uh that is a year or two away from me and I am not there. You know what I'm saying? Like just the idea that And does that make me a child? No. But it makes me a hell of a lot younger in heart and mind than them.

[00:53:14]You know what I'm saying? Like uh I'm I'm not there. I'm not ready for that sort of responsibility. Um.

[00:53:21]>> Mhm.

[00:53:21]>> And I shouldn't be trusted with that sort of responsibility. Now, don't get me wrong, if I was thrust into that situation, I'm sure I'd do just fine.

[00:53:28]I'd do everything I could. I'd grow up real [ __ ] fast. Um, but because I don't have to, I won't. You see? Um, and that's uh I think that there's we're at the age now where we can observe, oh, that 22-year-old is a [ __ ] child.

[00:53:44]>> Yeah.

[00:53:44]>> You know, and usually it's dudes.

[00:53:47]>> Usually 22-y old men are kids. um just the way of it, you know, like uh I even think back to when I was younger. My parents had me so young, you know, like my my parents had me, my mom was 20, my dad was 22. Even by the time I can have conscious thought where my dad was like roughly my age, maybe a little older, I am, no disrespect to my father, miles ahead of him maturity-wise at [clears throat] this age than he was.

[00:54:13]And he's even told me that. He's even told me that. He's like, "You are just so much more intelligent." uh you're more mature. You just generally carry yourself like an adult more than I did.

[00:54:22]And I had you and I had Q and like I was like >> I was like damn dad. [laughter] >> But like no. So like there there is there is levels to the the maturity aspect of it and I love the depiction of his love for Joan Chen in this movie. Um because it isn't exactly, you know, he's not owning up to it. you know, he's not like, "We should be together. This is it." You know, like he's not actively pursuing, but he is giving her space >> and he's letting her take her time and he's letting her decide on her own and, you know, he understands the cultural significance of what their actions mean and would mean, you know, so like there is a mature level to that and I I really And again, like he's probably mid to late 20s. It's not like he's a kid. Um, you know, but uh >> Yeah, it didn't feel >> Yeah. No, she's 48, >> you know, situation going on here. Yeah, this was this was Yeah, it's good. There was nothing. Everything it was socially wrong, you know, maybe maybe for their family, but it never felt for them, but it's above boardly wrong. Yeah, it was legal.

[00:55:31]>> Mhm. This was all all good. And yeah, like you know, and at the end she's like, you know, he he asks her like, "Oh, so you're finally going to let me move in, right?" She's like, "Hell no."

[00:55:40]She's like, "This is the first time I've lived alone forever. like you're not going to ruin, you know, I'm going to let that live for a little bit. That was kind I was that was pretty funny. Uh so yeah, like it there it got very serious at points, you know, te nice tear-ups, nice like ah wells of emotion and then it's like oh yeah, no, this is I'm actually just having a good time too. So this was it was kind of a uh >> gorgeous movie also.

[00:56:03]>> Yeah. Mhm. Yeah, true.

[00:56:04]>> Beautiful to look at. I I love that image of her on that like a pier that like boardwalk sort of uh with the city in the background meeting her on the bench. God damn. Yeah.

[00:56:15]>> Uh hot dogs, you know, maybe the straightest thing a woman can eat, but they may it's still so gay the whole the whole time, you know? I think that was just like I don't know if that was like purposeful. Like what are hot dogs just like if you're it's just the city food that everyone eats? I don't know. But like I think it's just funny. I don't I don't know why. Like a banana and a hot dog. It's just a dick.

[00:56:37]>> Yeah, phallic foods are funny. Yeah, phallic foods are just objectively funny.

[00:56:41]>> Yeah, corn dog popsicles.

[00:56:43]>> I'll never grow up. I will never grow up in that aspect. You >> know, I love Have you ever seen the movie Horrible Bosses?

[00:56:49]>> No, I don't think so.

[00:56:51]>> Possibly the least gay movie ever made.

[00:56:54]Uh very >> uh it's Jason Baitman, Charlie Day, Jason Sedakus. Um, and there's a scene in the movie where they're staking out their bosses, uh, with the intentions of killing them. Uh, that's they're staking out each other's bosses >> and going, "Well, there's no motive that can tie them back to us because, you know, it's each other's bosses."

[00:57:16]>> Uh, yeah, it's it's smart. Um, you see, >> um, but he is staking out Jennifer Aniston. Uh, Jason Sedakus is he's taking out Jennifer Aniston, who is just obviously a drop deadad gorgeous woman.

[00:57:28]Um, and he's like, so I'm watching her through the window, right? And she eats a popsicle and then a banana and then a corn dog in that order in reverse.

[00:57:40]That's asking me to come inside, you know, like uh he's like, "So, so yeah, we [ __ ] you know, like uh so now he can't kill her because they had sex and now he has motive." Um >> Mhm. Maybe, you know, >> so okay, maybe I was wrong. Maybe I misspoke. It's not like the straightest thing you can eat. It's just like the one some of the horniest foods you can eat. Even if you are pure obviously. No, it's like it's just how it is. I don't I I I don't make the rules, you know? This is You can't eat a banana normally.

[00:58:10]Can't I've never like to this even if I'm alone. No one is around at all.

[00:58:17]Every time I eat a banana, the thought crosses my mind. You like it's never not going to I don't think just like farts will always be funny. It's like it is written in stone these these things. But yeah, I thought I don't know just a a weird like they always had a hot dog and then like she you know like at the end like yeah your hot dog duck got cold fed it to the birds.

[00:58:38]>> You know there are dudes who think it's gay to drink through a straw.

[00:58:44]>> Wait, cuz you're just sucking on a a very small phallic shaped object. What do you What's the What? So when you go to McDonald's and you get a Coke, what they open the lid?

[00:58:54]>> They take the [ __ ] lid off. This is real.

[00:58:57]>> No, that's a real thing. This is a real thing. Um, >> what the >> Yeah, I've actually So working in a restaurant, I've actually gotten to observe this a little bit and there is a it's a generational thing for sure.

[00:59:08]There comes a point whenever dudes of a certain age will not drink stuff out of a straw. Um, >> wow.

[00:59:17]>> And it's just because they were taught you don't drink [ __ ] out of a straw. Um.

[00:59:22]>> Huh. That's insane. I mean, like, >> no, there's legitimate math behind the McDonald's straw. Like, it is that size so that the Coke tastes the best that it possibly can. Uh, and it is.

[00:59:34]>> McDonald's straws are the [ __ ] By the way, they I don't know. I don't know that there's any innocuous object >> that has ever made me more nostalgic on site than the straw that has the yellow stripe and the red stripe down the side.

[00:59:48]I don't know what it is. I'm just like, "This makes me this makes me feel good."

[00:59:52]Um, now that's that's advertising.

[00:59:55]That's that's that's per that's perfecting the art of advertisement. Um, and branding. I know that I've fallen victim to capital. You know what I'm saying? But I can't help but feel nostalgia in this regard.

[01:00:07]>> It's actually just you are gay for the straw. You know, that is it's a crazy I've never I don't know. Maybe I've I've just never been exposed to that idea that just a straw is gay.

[01:00:18]That's hilarious.

[01:00:22]>> How the [ __ ] are you drinking out of the straw if it's gay? You know, like I'm I'm over here just like I'm I'm touching my lips to the lid. You know what I'm saying? Like all the way down all the way down the straw. Just >> Yeah. I mean, there are more gay ways to drink out of a straw. I think you know that, you know, if you grab it with like and then hold your other three fingers.

[01:00:42]If you just grab it with like your pointer and thumb, you know, and do [laughter] the little If you do that like Yeah. That's That's not the straightest way to drink out of, you know, but like, you know, there's But what the just in in general, you touch your lips to a straw. Gay. That's I think that's a that's hilarious. That's act like >> one of the first times I realized I wasn't straight. Um I was in a car. Um I was in a car with my mom and like four uh four dudes who we were taking to like I think it was like Nerf war freshman year. Um, it was like, >> "Let's go."

[01:01:18]>> It was like Ethan, Brody, Malik, you know, a couple other people that were in the back of the car. And I don't know how it came up, but it it was about like it was a gay test. Like, how >> to see if you were gay, do you do this?

[01:01:32]You know, um, >> and my mom my mom goes, "Okay, try this. Are your nails dirty?" And we all looked at our nails.

[01:01:40]>> Oh, no.

[01:01:42]>> Um, we all looked at our nails. And if you if you make like the fist and you look at them like that, you know, like where you you put your fingers to your palm, >> okay?

[01:01:52]>> You put your fingers to your palm and you look at them like that, you're straight. You're not gay. But if you hold your hand straight out >> and straight up and look at the back of your hand, >> Yeah.

[01:02:03]>> that makes you gay. And that was my instinct. Everyone else put their [ __ ] fingers to their palm [laughter] and I went, "Nah." You know, I went, "Nah, forget about it." Um, now I'm not saying that that's a foolproof me foolproof method. Foolproof method, but none of those other none of those other guys have come out in any capacity as queer. And uh, here I am. You know what I'm saying?

[01:02:26]>> I did hit the back of the hand. You didn't even I thought it was if they're clean, you're gay. If they're dirty, you're straight. I thought that's where you were going. But as I was >> That's also true.

[01:02:35]>> Um, yeah. I think Yeah. If you just Why?

[01:02:37]Why? What the [ __ ] Why is it gay to just be have good hygiene? What is the >> um It's feminine, you see. Um it's feminine to be clean.

[01:02:47]>> I hate this, you know. And I think it might just be my OCD germaphobia brain a little bit, but it's like to be clean.

[01:02:54]>> No, Joe, it's because you're gay. Um No, Joe, it's because you're queer.

[01:02:59]>> All right, whatever. Sorry. I like to have my hands, you know, the things you use the most throughout the day. Um I like them to be clean, uh generally. And whenever you touch your face, which you do a lot, uh, I liked my hands to be clean. I don't know. It's just a a [clears throat] a crazy maybe a crazy thought, but no, I definitely hit the backwards nail look. Um, is it isn't it more gay to do the palm? I feel like the the kind of closing >> I don't think either one. I think it also depends on like the orientation in which you do it, you know, like uh if >> if your if your pinky is the furthest down on your palm and your your your finger your like pointer finger is like on your thumb.

[01:03:39]>> Yeah. That's a little gay. You know what I'm saying? Um like that's that's a little gay. Um, but so like that was so like genuinely I I remember she told me that and I I I like immediately switched to that and that's how I did it was like uh >> yeah that's that's a good test right there. That's a I don't know it one that really doesn't mean anything but it I don't know it's a good initial you know I think my >> very funny at the very least my mom made me laugh and I've never forgotten it. So like that's that's very funny. Um.

[01:04:13]>> Huh.

[01:04:14]>> But yeah, man. Love me some saving face.

[01:04:16]Good movie.

[01:04:17]>> That's true. Yeah. I guess we're I don't know. Feel like uh it's just good, you know, maybe some tangent conversations, but that's like, you know, what the the movie is. This is what, you know, I don't know. They're >> This is the spirit of the podcast. It is the sentimentalists because we talk about things just beyond things that, you know, I just talked about a memory.

[01:04:36]That's sentimental. See, look at that.

[01:04:38]Look at that. It all comes together.

[01:04:39]>> Oh, and that's I need see. Oh my god.

[01:04:42]the movie and memory connections. I I really need to start this note-taking thing or letter box integration into this new note thing so I can see all these movie connections because like I don't know, imagine there's a matrix connection that I would have never thought of, but it just pops up out of something. Who knows? Um I I don't know how to do this, but I need to figure out how to put all the movies I've seen into this into this note takingaking app and have all my my connections between them all. But yeah, this is >> The Matrix and Saving Face are both directed by queer women.

[01:05:13]>> Oh, okay. See, there you go.

[01:05:15]>> Put a tag a queer tag. That'd be per, you know, perfect. You It would They both have the queer tag. Boom. You know, a random connection. What? Why? They're both queer. I would not, you know, I always forget The Matrix, you know, every now and then. Um and and because it's >> Yeah, it it's it's an easy one. It's just kind of implicit. Yeah. You know, it's like, of course, I love The Matrix, but I rarely regard it as like one of my favorite movies of all time unless I've watched it recently and I'm like, "Oh, yeah. This is the shit."

[01:05:44]>> Yeah.

[01:05:44]>> And then every time I'm reminded of it, I'm like, "Yeah, no." That Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:50]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:05:51]>> Yeah. No, the queer queer directors, it's like they they're they're more you write what you know, you know, more. And that that and that's from uh is that French dispatch? Write what you know.

[01:06:02]Write what you know. No, that is tick tick boom. Uh is >> uhuh. Tick tick. That's the second tick tick boom of the name drop of the episode. Uh French dispatch is whatever you write, try to make it sound like you wrote it that way on purpose.

[01:06:17]>> Yeah. Um >> Okay. Something was ringing a bell, but no, the the tick tick boom is definitely where where that one was was coming from. But yeah, that's it's just it is true. I mean, you can just feel it a little bit like it's it's like uh a queer queer stories just kind of shine through in all ways like a little like uh through the camera. I know I'm watching a movie, but then it's like the I'm it gets me to go outside of the movie and think of I don't know everyone involved and like if you're even working on this movie in the first place, you got to be, you know, I don't think anyone working on this is like I hate the gays and you know, I'm just doing this for the check. I really, you know, I think [laughter] so. Uh so, >> yeah. No, there's there's a there's an inherent solidarity with uh depicting queer people in a loving capacity.

[01:07:02]Obviously, there are >> very homophobic depictions of gay people as well. But >> um >> true. And yeah, that gives a whole different feeling uh to watch the movie.

[01:07:11]Everyone who signed up for that knowing what it was. Yeah, that's a Uhhuh. I guess I don't I watch too many homophobic movies. Oh, >> well, you didn't wa Well, and you didn't watch a lot of movies where the point was to be homophobic, which god forbid anybody ever watches a movie like that.

[01:07:27]Um, >> yeah, >> but a lot of comedies when we were younger, um, >> are implicitly homophobic.

[01:07:35]>> That's kind of true. Yeah, >> there it was just kind of a trait that a lot of movies had when we were younger because it was just ingrained in comedy a little bit was that >> uh it was funny to laugh at gay people um because they were gay. It was a punchline. Um >> it's just too e it's like straight people are too easy or like you can't really make good joke. It's like gay maybe that's it's gay people are so expressive and so unique that you can make jokes about them because they have a life and personality to them and it's like so much easier for punchlines and stuff.

[01:08:09]>> They're alive. Yeah, they're alive. You see? Um >> Mhm. But but yeah, that's kind of true, I guess. Yeah. Homo I was going to say uh scratch uh our plans for July. We are countering Pride Month with homophobia.

[01:08:23]>> Yeah. Or the opposite. And then we just blast in front of it the whole time.

[01:08:27]>> Oh yeah, but >> actually it's actually not a bad idea.

[01:08:30][snorts] >> I mean, hey, um, save it in the back. I don't think we definitely do like next June. I don't I don't know, you know, you know, if we flip the script and and just go pure.

[01:08:39]>> I had I've been having a lot of great ideas for uh theme months. Um, just generally, they always occur to me after we've like established what we're doing the rest of the year. Um, which is always fun. Um.

[01:08:53]>> Mhm. Darn it.

[01:08:54]>> Because we have it nailed down. We are set through December, which is like a lot. That's the next six months. Um, we are we are done. We've got it all we've got it all lined up. So, I'm already thinking about what 2027 is going to be.

[01:09:08]Um, which is hilarious of me. Um, but uh >> Mhm.

[01:09:13]>> Yeah. I think uh we can save this conversation for off mic. Thank you for listening to our episode on saving face.

[01:09:20]We are going to go ahead and rate this movie on a scale of 1 to 10. Uh but first, if you would go ahead and check out Geek with Me, and I bring that up because here in just a couple short weeks, House of the Dragon season 3 begins. Um and we will be covering that week by week. I know I made a lot of big promises about Daredevil Born again and uh Maul Shadow Lord, but we don't miss Thrones, okay? We don't we don't skimp on that. Uh, we've covered every episode of Game of Thrones that has ever hit television. Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon, Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

[01:09:55]We will not be missing out on House of the Dragon season 3. So, Geek with Me is where that will be. Um, bars. Um, we also have Fire Pod with Me, Twin Peaks podcast. Uh, that is long long ended now. Um, but if you've never seen Twin Peaks, which features Joan Chen, there's a connection, baby. Let's go. Um, you should check it out if you like Joan Chen. I mean, you should absolutely watch that. Uh, it is it is perfect.

[01:10:24]Speaking of something that has not uh some aspects of something that has not aged well, um, >> uh, you know, the whole she dresses up in a >> uh, >> Asian face uh, at one point. Not Joan Chen, somebody else. Uh, I won't give away who, but somebody does. Um, >> yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:45]But something that has aged well >> something that has aged well a trans woman shows up. Dale knows her and is like your name is this now. Okay, cool.

[01:10:55]You know, and that's it. She's she's just her now. You love that. So yeah, Twin Peaks. It's great. Uh it's also super gay, by the way. Dale Cooper wants to [ __ ] Harry Truman. I know it. Um but uh >> he's he's a pure lover, you know. He's a dreamer and a lover. He's >> I'll [ __ ] anything that moves. Yeah. Uh Uh but uh >> another Lynch connection there, Blue Velvet, baby. Um but uh yeah, so that's what we've got going on otherwise. Next week we'll be back with the Watermelon Woman. Uh the week after that, Tu Wong Fu, thanks for everything, Julie Numar.

[01:11:28]Uh and then July is right around the corner and we've got some fun stuff planned there. But stick around to find out what it is. On a scale of 1 to 10, how are you feeling about saving face?

[01:11:40]>> Let's see. I give last week an eight.

[01:11:42]And I think I would, you know, uh I guess I have the power to I'm going to retroactively agree with you and give it the bump. I don't know why I was so harsh on it. I remember it much more fondly. Um I'm going to just agree with you at an 8.5 and then I'm going to say that I enjoyed this one a wee bit more um there. So I think uh it's either the 875 or nine I think is kind of where I'm landing a little bit right now. I think.

[01:12:10]Okay.

[01:12:11]>> Yeah, I >> I'm gonna go the nine though. I think I was >> That's nice. Yeah, >> I'm gonna go there.

[01:12:16]>> I I'm right about there, too. It was 875 or nine range, but I'm a cheerleader.

[01:12:21]Being an 85 kind of automatically locks it into that. Um >> I think it's aged incredibly gracefully.

[01:12:29]>> I think that it is still as >> pertinent now as it was then, uh 20 years ago. I think that Joan Chen is immaculate, an incredible performance.

[01:12:41]It's a really, really wellperformed movie and very naturalistic. You know, Bottom of My Cheerleader was very fanciful and satirical and, you know, this is very down the middle and uh human, you know, and I think that that ultimately pays dividends for it. You know, this movie wouldn't have been as good if it tried the same thing as But I'm a cheerleader. It's just a completely different kind of movie. Um, and I think ultimately it benefits from it. Mhm.

[01:13:05]>> I um Yeah, I'll I'll I'll agree with you. I'll go nine.

[01:13:09]>> Mhm. Okay, there we are. A good a good I guess an average of 875 so far on the month. Um I think in I don't know. I have no idea what to expect the next couple weeks, but they do look fun. Uh that >> Yeah, the watermelon woman I have actually never seen. This is a blind spot. I have no idea what we're getting into. So that is a uh I don't know.

[01:13:29]Yeah, that one it sounds fun on the surface cuz it sounds superheroesque and then it's like not. Um, so yeah, that's uh I guess that >> you never know there. Um, yeah, >> I expect it'll be serious, you know. I expect it'll be a it'll be pretty >> pretty not intense. I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea what we're getting into. Too Wong Fu, however, extremely fun. Uh, very very good movie.

[01:13:55]Um, and for me coming into the month and the three of the four that I have seen is my favorite. Um, >> I love Tu Wong Fu. So, we've got that to look forward to. Uh, and with that, we will conclude our episode on Saving Face with a N out of 10 on the old sentimental meter. Uh, I was Colton Robertson. I was joined by Joseph George. Thank you very much, homie.

[01:14:18]>> Oh, thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to be here, homie.

[01:14:21]>> Oh, and it's always a pleasure to have you. And remember, tell everybody you know, every conservative relative, everybody who you'd argue with at a Thanksgiving dinner, look them in the face, go, "I love gay people." And [ __ ] ICE.