Did the Devil write the Book of Mormon? An E.O Thinks So...

追加: 2026-05-12

[00:00:02]I saw a pillar of light.

[00:00:10]>> I'm 29.

[00:00:12]>> Perfect.

[00:00:14]>> How are you?

[00:00:15]>> Just have a quick question.

[00:00:18]>> Yeah. A lot of people say Mormons aren't Christian, and sometimes I believe that Mormons are Christian, and sometimes I believe that they're not.

[00:00:35]Uh, >> how does that work?

[00:00:37]Well, it's just um I get the impression that Mormons are really good people and they want to be Christlike, but then uh so I don't know why Christians are saying that Bible that says you can't add to it.

[00:00:55]>> That Mormons aren't Christian. I'm still trying to figure that out. I just wanted to I don't know, maybe you can help me understand.

[00:01:03]>> Can you define what a Christian is for me?

[00:01:06]Uh, I can't.

[00:01:09]>> Okay. Why are you saying we're not Christians?

[00:01:13]Um, also I guess it just comes down to opinion.

[00:01:24]>> Okay.

[00:01:25]>> Is it fact?

[00:01:28]Hey, Omar.

[00:01:31]It's hard to have a conversation with you if you can't even define what a Christian is.

[00:01:37]>> Yeah. I guess I'm just trying to I'm I'm trying to figure out myself.

[00:01:41]>> Oxford dictionary says a Christian is someone who follows Jesus.

[00:01:46]>> Okay, >> that's it.

[00:01:49]>> I agree with that.

[00:01:54]Okay. So, by that definition, we're Christians.

[00:01:58]>> Okay.

[00:02:01]>> Nope.

[00:02:02]>> All right. God bless. Thank Hello, friend.

[00:02:50]>> Are you 18 or older?

[00:02:53]>> I'm 42.

[00:02:56]>> Cool. Do you have a question for me?

[00:02:59]I'm actually just looking to talk to decent people on the internet. I don't know why or there's no method to my madness.

[00:03:12]>> Well, we're talking about something specific. So, if you have no questions, I can go to the next guest.

[00:03:16]>> Okay. You're a Mormon.

[00:03:18]>> Mhm.

[00:03:20]>> How?

[00:03:23]>> What do you mean how?

[00:03:25]>> Yeah. How? How? How can >> I was baptized and I came up out of the water >> and I was given the gift of the Holy Ghost >> and I chose to to walk into the baptism that made me a member of the church.

[00:03:40]>> I chose to I chose to sit down on a chair and be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[00:03:49]>> All right. Yeah. Yeah, I get that.

[00:03:51]>> So that's how I did it.

[00:03:53]>> Yeah, that's not what I meant.

[00:03:56]You know that's not what I meant.

[00:03:58]>> Well, he asked you to elaborate.

[00:04:00]>> Oh, well, my elaboration of that is >> your people are so deeply corrupt.

[00:04:11]>> Jes Jesus is my people. Do you think Jesus is corrupt?

[00:04:16]>> Do do not tarnish my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[00:04:20]>> Well, Jesus is my people. So unless >> there there is no there is no way that my Jesus is your Jesus. There's no way.

[00:04:28]>> Yeah.

[00:04:28]>> No, there's the same Jesus. Yeah.

[00:04:31]>> No, it's not. No, it's not.

[00:04:32]>> Yeah, it is.

[00:04:33]>> No, it's not. No, it's not. My Jesus Christ. It's not your Jesus.

[00:04:37]>> Yes, it is.

[00:04:38]>> No, it's not, dude. Come on.

[00:04:40]>> Yes, it is. It's the same Jesus.

[00:04:43]>> Okay. So, the >> So, again, that's my Jesus. Would you agree with that Jesus or no?

[00:04:51]>> Would I agree with what Jesus? My Jesus says that we do not play those games.

[00:04:56]>> Yeah. And same with my Jesus.

[00:04:59]>> Okay. Okay. So, >> do we have the same Jesus now?

[00:05:03]>> No. You got to you got to earn >> Wait, what part of what part of your Jesus do I not have?

[00:05:10]>> The part where you're what? You're canceling me now.

[00:05:19]>> No. What part is is it not the same, bro?

[00:05:22]>> Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ wants nothing but civility.

[00:05:28]>> Yeah. My Jesus My Jesus says that, too.

[00:05:31]I agree.

[00:05:32]>> Jesus Christ wants nothing but civility.

[00:05:35]Jesus Christ wants nothing but everybody.

[00:05:40]Why are >> Amen. That's my Jesus, too. So, do you have the same Jesus?

[00:05:46]I don't know your Jesus because you guys >> My Jesus is your Jesus.

[00:05:50]>> You guys are over there. You guys >> That's incorrect. Hey. Hey. Oh, fine.

[00:05:54]Are you drunk?

[00:05:57]>> No. I'm I'm confused.

[00:05:59]>> Have you been drinking?

[00:06:02]>> Yes.

[00:06:03]>> Don't lie cuz my Jesus doesn't like liars.

[00:06:06]>> I said yes.

[00:06:07]>> So, are you drunk?

[00:06:09]>> Yes. Yes, I am.

[00:06:10]>> Okay. Well, God said don't get drunk.

[00:06:12]So, God bless you.

[00:06:14]>> I know. I know. And I'm confused about that.

[00:06:16]>> So, it looks like we do have different Jesuses cuz my Jesus says don't get drunk, but apparently yours says it's okay.

[00:06:22]>> No.

[00:06:24]No. No. No. Jesus says it's okay.

[00:06:30]No. Jesus says it's okay to do anything.

[00:06:32]>> So, so can So, can you agree that we have the same Jesus now?

[00:06:36]>> I I want to >> just say yes.

[00:06:40]>> I want to >> just say yes. Come on.

[00:06:44]You won't remember when you wake up anyways. Just say yes.

[00:06:47]>> No, I'm not like [ __ ] drunk. I'm just I had some >> You can't say that word. I got to kick you off.

[00:06:55]>> Oh, well, [ __ ] Come, >> dude.

[00:07:03]Guys, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[00:07:06]>> Hey, what's up, K?

[00:07:08]>> What up?

[00:07:10]>> What's up? You are >> Mormon.

[00:07:14]I am a member of the LDS church.

[00:07:17]>> Okay. But it sounds like you went like kind of like on a journey to discover and it led you here. So >> I am curious to know like what was what was the logic behind choosing the the church of Latter Day Saints over you know other denominations.

[00:07:35]>> Uh other denominations fundamentally believe in a hate hateful God.

[00:07:41]Sorry. What? Fundamentally believe what?

[00:07:43]>> Other other forms of Christianity believe fundamentally in a in a evil god.

[00:07:51]>> In an evil god. Okay.

[00:07:53]>> Yeah.

[00:07:55]>> Okay. So, why does that >> belief systems necessitate an evil god?

[00:07:59]>> Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. I'm I'm from I'm familiar with the the arguments people present as far as God being evil to, you know, most denominations. But how does that make the Church of Latter Day Saints true? Even if I were >> What do you mean by true?

[00:08:15]>> Well, how do you know it's true? How do you know that you >> What do you mean by true?

[00:08:19]>> What I mean by true is that it's not false. That you >> That's still not answering what you mean by true.

[00:08:25]>> Okay. How do you know that this is the church that Christ established? Let's do it that way.

[00:08:29]>> I choose to believe in it.

[00:08:31]>> It's a subjective belief because religion is subjective.

[00:08:35]>> Okay. So, you don't actually know if it's true.

[00:08:39]There's no objective truth in religion.

[00:08:41]Correct.

[00:08:41]>> Yeah. There there is no objective truth in religion. You can't prove anything especially ancient things from antiquity. You can't prove like divine miracles happened 2,000 years ago.

[00:08:52]>> Right? You I believe that the LDS church is the church that Christ established.

[00:08:59]I can provide sufficient evidence for the belief system that makes me believe that way. But I cannot objectively prove it to you.

[00:09:12]>> That helps. What are the reasons that you >> just like you can't you can't you can't objectively prove mine or your belief system.

[00:09:20]>> Okay. Well, that helps then. What are the reasons why you chose to believe this then?

[00:09:26]>> Yeah. So, I just told you one.

[00:09:30]I think someone tried probably calling him or something.

[00:09:33]Like from what he was what he was talking about though is that he he believes that fundamental Christian Christians or Christianity and I I fall into this camp too because I was an atheist prior to converting but um that he said that overall the rest of Christianity that believes in ex Nicolo creation primarily believes in an evil god. We don't because we believe in a in a God that ultimately gives us the agency to choose everything and to decide for ourselves what we want to do and participate in and what what choices we want to make including being here on this earth today. So if you're going to stay consistent with what God does and what he has done throughout all of history, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the most prominent realistic answer because they believe in continual revelation and they have they have more eyewitness more affidavit testimonies than we have for anyone in the Bible. So in regards to testimonies of God appear appearing to his people or sending angels or um performing miracles of of people within the church of that to account for the truthfulness of the claims than we do for the Bible. That is why it's more realistic.

[00:10:52]>> Sorry, where were where we at?

[00:10:55]>> Yeah, I I'll pick up as Henry, thanks thanks for picking up in the meantime.

[00:10:58]Um, I just want to double check cuz the chat's saying that they can only hear certain people. They can't hear me.

[00:11:03]>> I can hear you. I can hear you.

[00:11:05]>> Uh, chat, but I think maybe the chat can't hear me. Uh, >> no, they can hear you.

[00:11:09]>> Okay, put a one in the chat, guys, if you can hear me. Um, >> they just said we good.

[00:11:14]>> Okay, sounds good. So, you said you said that um you chose >> Wait, catch me up. Catch me up.

[00:11:20]>> No, no, I'm going to start back with you from the beginning.

[00:11:24]>> Yeah, I'm starting back where we left off. Him and I just got in a side combo.

[00:11:28]until you came back.

[00:11:28]>> Okay.

[00:11:30]>> So, this is where we left off. You said, um, truth is subjective. Uh, you can't objectively prove >> I No, I said religion is subjective.

[00:11:39]>> Sorry. Religion is subjective. You can't objectively prove that the LDS church is true, but you have reasons to believe it. And then you were going back into listing that the other denominations would have an evil god. But my contention is how does that logically entail that the LDS church is true even if I were to grant you that?

[00:12:03]Again, I choose to believe based on the claims found within the LDS church that they carry and and they they uh substantiate their claims better than other Christian denominations. So, I choose to put my faith in those Yeah, good. Those are the answer. Those are the things I'm trying to get I'm trying to gather information on. So what like >> so so the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, there's no naturalistic way for the Book of Mormon to come that I've found that of how it came forward.

[00:12:37]>> Can you explain? Can we stop right there and start there? I think that's a good start.

[00:12:42]>> That's a good start. Yeah.

[00:12:44]>> Hold up. No, you asked for multiple things. So I'm going to get >> No, no, no, no. Yeah, multiple things.

[00:12:48]But if we can go one point at a time, that'd be nice. Well, you didn't you didn't engage with the other one, but you want to engage with this one.

[00:12:53]>> Well, the other one doesn't logically.

[00:12:54]If like for example, if Catholicism is false, it doesn't automatically conclude that the LDS church is true. Islam.

[00:13:03]>> That's a horrible argument from our good friend.

[00:13:06]>> So then I don't know. Let's for the let's for the sake of argument, let's go for the sake of argument and say that okay, the other churches believe God is evil. Okay. Now, why LDS? Why? I just told you two two reasons.

[00:13:23]>> Let's talk about the Book of Mormon, the origin. I think that's a good start.

[00:13:26]>> Can you tell me a little bit about that story as to why this logically concludes it has to be from God?

[00:13:31]>> Yeah, there there is no naturalistic way that Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon.

[00:13:38]>> So, >> and if you feel as though there is, you would have to provide evidence for it.

[00:13:42]>> Well, I don't necessarily have to provide evidence. I can provide something that's possible unless you can provide like a repeater.

[00:13:49]>> Yeah. Is it possible that a demon or Satan could have provided it?

[00:13:53]>> Uh, no. Because that would divide the church against itself like it says in Mark.

[00:13:58]>> What church?

[00:14:01]>> The the church of Christ, a house built of of God. Unless you unless we unless you don't believe the Bible is the word of God. So therefore, I can't appeal to the biblical text in this way.

[00:14:12]>> Yeah. Um well I do believe in the Bible but I'm trying to understand your application of that text of that verse.

[00:14:21]>> Yeah. So Mark it says do you believe that Christ can so so do you believe God created Satan?

[00:14:30]>> Okay.

[00:14:32]>> Um what was the last thing you said? I'm sorry I forgot.

[00:14:35]Um, you would have to, if you believe that the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is from a demonic possession or it came from a demon, you have to, you would have to show proof of that or evidence of that.

[00:14:48]>> Um, not necessarily. Um, all I'm presenting is that it's possible. uh if you would like to provide evidence where because remember the claim is on your end that the the the conclusion for you is that it had to have come from God and no other possibility. So I'm presenting a possibility assuming you have a defeater of my possibility.

[00:15:10]>> So wait, so the the defeater already of your of the possibility is the fact that the Book of Mormon testifies of God in Jesus Christ, which would take power away from from a demon or the devil. So it' be he who would be fighting against himself which the scriptures say in regards to the Pharisees calling Jesus the devil and he says a house divided on it upon itself can't stand in in I guess you could say in response to them because it makes no sense. Well, if we're going to be intellectually honest here, what's your name? Bear.

[00:15:47]Do you also then take the stance that it is possible that the biblical text was inspired by a demon?

[00:15:53]>> I mean, if we're going to give it epistemic justification, you have to explore all possibilities and then conclude to something, right?

[00:16:02]>> Do do you believe that >> do you believe that that is a possibility?

[00:16:06]>> No, I don't. Not anymore. But I I mean if we go into that conversation I can explain why.

[00:16:12]>> Okay. Sure.

[00:16:13]>> We're not I would like to respond to how you guys are applying.

[00:16:16]>> Yeah. Respond to what he just said.

[00:16:17]>> Yeah. So like when it comes to the division of Satan when Jesus talks about talks to the Pharisees about Billub and a kingdom divided against itself can't stand. When you say that the Book of Mormon talks about Jesus and God therefore opposing Satan and Satan will be opposing himself, this presupposes that the Book of Mormon is true. This is circular reasoning because if >> No, it doesn't presuppose.

[00:16:44]>> I'll I'll land I'll land it right here and you guys can respond. Okay? Because if the Book of Mormon is false, which we're exploring the possibility of it, and it's a lie, then Satan would be successfully deceiving people into believing a false book, which would then succeed his kingdom, not Christ's kingdom.

[00:17:02]>> Okay. So, bear >> again, you're now you're now presupposing it's already against Christ's kingdom, though.

[00:17:08]>> Yeah.

[00:17:08]>> No, no, here's the issue. Here's here's the issue real quick.

[00:17:11]>> So, the the text the text respond to that after you're done. Go ahead.

[00:17:15]>> Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. The the point is is that my argument you still you still don't you still didn't attack the claim from from the premise itself.

[00:17:23]So the argument is is that the devil or demons would not use that as an argument simply because the text affirms the New Testament and the claims made in the New Testament about Jesus being the savior, king, and the God of Israel. all these things while at the same time belitting and diminishing the power of Satan uh among the people of Israel. So why would why would Satan affirm or help bring forth the devil this text that would objectively be against him? Like that's that's the that's the whole premise.

[00:17:59]You're not really you're not really attacking that part. you're kind of going around it and you're saying, "Well, it could be from the devil on the basis of this might say a couple things contrary to what the what the biblical text says based off of opinion."

[00:18:15]Okay. Once again, um, yeah, there's there's no attacking of premises here.

[00:18:20]I'm just asking epistemological questions on on the belief on the decision to be a Latter-day Saint. So when we're exploring like when there's a claim here that the Book of Mormon could have only have come from God, all I'm doing is testing the epistemic justification of it by presenting some possibilities. Now, as far as what you're saying, once again, you're assuming that because the Book of Mormon says Satan is against God and therefore opposing Satan.

[00:18:52]>> No, we're not saying, but you know what?

[00:18:54]How about how about how about I give you a better example where where Paul says no one can preach of Christ or testify or say that Christ is Lord without having the spirit. The Book of Mormon says that multiple times. So does that mean that one that is a lie from the New Testament or that it is true and that is actually of God? Because either you're contradicting Paul and you don't actually believe Paul and it's this is aligned with Paul's teachings or it's not.

[00:19:21]>> Yeah. But the problem the problem with bringing up this text, Henry, is that you and I have both different grounding of how we interpret this text. So you're >> interping in your grounding cuz you're >> grounding doesn't matter right now.

[00:19:35]>> Well, I I understand that you're trying to do an internal critique in regards to our epist uh epistemological understanding of how we know the Book of Mormon's true. Right. That's what you're trying to do.

[00:19:48]>> Yeah. Correct. Which was why my grounding I'll just my first >> just one thing just which is why the grounding is into which how I interpret that verse is irrelevant right now.

[00:19:59]>> Sure. I understand I understand that we believe that the Book of Mormon scripture is that it testifies of God.

[00:20:06]That's one reason. Another reason apostles and prophets have relayed such that it is scripture. Another reason, there is no naturalistic way that I've found the Book of Mormon came to be.

[00:20:18]Another reason, it affirms the biblical text. Another reason, it teaches and clarifies the biblical text. All of these things is the fruits of the things found within the pages of the Book of Mormon. So, due to these fruits, I have tested these fruits and because it's borne good fruit, I believe it.

[00:20:40]Does that make sense? Um, I mean, I know what you're saying. It's clear what you just said. Um, but whether you're whether you're way of reasoning with this makes sense or not, it doesn't. Um, it actually has uh a lot of facious reasoning behind it because, um, number one, like the assumption Yeah. I mean, you can laugh, but I mean, it's just like, for example, you study religions, right? You said you studied religions for multiple years.

[00:21:04]>> Yeah. I I know that. I know you're take you're you're you're >> you're an Eastern Orthodox, right?

[00:21:10]>> Yes.

[00:21:11]Okay. Again, what what does this have to do with anything about what I just said about the fruits?

[00:21:16]>> Yeah. So, when you Okay, how are you measuring the fruits? Let's start there.

[00:21:20]>> I already just gave you five ways.

[00:21:22]>> Because you believe that the Book of Mormon interprets the Bible correctly, right?

[00:21:27]>> Just to summarize it.

[00:21:29]>> That's not what I said.

[00:21:31]>> Repeat what you said. Maybe I misunderstood.

[00:21:34]>> I said the Book of Mormon affirms teachings found within the biblical text, meaning they don't contradict doesn't contradict. Okay. So, you're saying it because it doesn't contradict, therefore it's true.

[00:21:46]>> No. Again, you keep trying to use true.

[00:21:50]>> You don't know if it's true.

[00:21:51]>> I've removed true from the category.

[00:21:54]>> Okay.

[00:21:54]>> And I say I believe in it >> because it's a subjective belief because religion is subjective.

[00:22:00]>> Is it just to just to understand before we move forward, is it fair to say that you believe in this but you don't really know if it's true?

[00:22:07]Uh I don't know what you mean by true again. Every time you say true, you haven't expanded upon anything about what true is.

[00:22:14]>> Yeah. Yeah. So true meaning that it's not incorrect in any way.

[00:22:18]>> Incorrect in what do you mean by incorrect?

[00:22:21]>> Like um here let me let me open >> for example the Bible the Bible is the word of God but it has false it has it has contradictions in it. Does that make it false?

[00:22:31]>> Oh it depends on what we're talking about. So here this this is where I'm going to oversimplify.

[00:22:34]>> Does that make sense though? You're saying true and false. If something has a contradiction, does that make it not >> If you allow me to if you allow me to clarify, that way we can move forward cuz we're going to have to figure this out in order for us to have a conversation.

[00:22:47]>> That's what I feel like. You're you're trying to pin me into this epistemological thought.

[00:22:52]>> The thing is is you're Yeah. You got to define what you mean. You can't have a conversation.

[00:22:57]>> Hold up. Hold up. Yeah, I know. I know.

[00:22:59]I'm just clarifying so that you can engage with the point I'm actually making.

[00:23:04]So, you try to you're trying to pin me.

[00:23:05]You're trying to pigeon hole hole me into this thought here. But this thought, every time I explain it, you're then applying true and false to it. And I haven't even brought up true or false.

[00:23:17]That That's my issue.

[00:23:20]Does that make sense?

[00:23:21]>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm just staying on mute just to make sure you guys get it all out so I don't get interrupted again.

[00:23:25]All right. Perfect. So what I mean by true just for the sake of uh the conversation when I say true I mean that this is actually the church and that was established by Christ in the first century by him by Christ himself.

[00:23:37]>> Well again I believe that it is >> that are you saying it's true for a fact?

[00:23:46]>> I what do you mean by true for a fact? I told you religion is subjective.

[00:23:51]>> Okay. So brother, if you do not understand Do you believe that religion is is subjective? Yes or no?

[00:23:58]>> Let me cuz then I'm not understanding you, brother, cuz you're saying you believe in it.

[00:24:01]>> I need I need to understand your position.

[00:24:03]>> Let me let me just ask one question, brother. Let me ask one question.

[00:24:06]>> Do you believe that religion is subjective?

[00:24:08]>> No, I don't. That's where we're crossing paths. And that's fine if you believe that. That's the issue.

[00:24:13]>> I understand that. So let me let me ask a clarifying cuz if we're not going to have a common ground here, then how can we move forward? So when you're saying you believe in something, what does that mean?

[00:24:27]>> That means I I'm putting my my faith into it.

[00:24:31]>> Exactly. Are you putting your faith into that? It's true.

[00:24:34]>> That Jesus is the is claims about the religion. Claims about the belief systems. I'm practicing the religion.

[00:24:42]I'm practicing the belief systems. I'm carrying out what I believe is the will of God.

[00:24:47]>> But are you practicing language? Are you >> all of which >> okay >> are subjective?

[00:24:55]>> Are you practicing it with the possibility of it being false?

[00:24:59]>> So on the basis of what he's saying on faith, faith inherently is believing in something that you do not have sure knowledge on but you're acting on it as if it's true. It's quite literally how Hebrews defines faith. So you can say it's subjective. Yes, you can say it's subjective and say that you believe it's true on the basis of faith without knowing or having the objective evidence to support it because that's how the Bible itself defines faith.

[00:25:27]>> That you guys are are speaking of two different things. That's not what the host is saying.

[00:25:31]>> No, we're not. No, we're not. Because >> So, do you agree with that? Do you agree that you're putting your belief?

[00:25:35]>> Well, let me just let me just land this cuz you allowed him to talk just a couple seconds. I'm not going to be longwinded.

[00:25:39]>> Oh my gosh.

[00:25:40]>> So, host, do you believe in the Church of Latter Day Saints? When you say you put your belief in it, are you putting your belief in it as if it's true? Cuz you said no before. Now your friend is saying that is the truth.

[00:25:50]>> No, I never said no. I said I put my faith Yeah. I put my faith and my practice into the truth claims of the of the Latter-day Saint church and believe that it is true in that sense. So he's right in that steel man.

[00:26:06]>> Okay. So now I'm I'm assuming So now we had a we had a fixed fixation upon faith. So you had to fix up the wording you said before because you didn't say that before.

[00:26:16]>> No.

[00:26:16]>> So now that we're now that we do we understand.

[00:26:18]>> No. No. Because I'm positing faith and faith is is the instance is the absence of 100% I know because I'm putting my faith into the truth claims. And due to me putting my faith into the truth claims I'm following those truth claims.

[00:26:36]And based on me following those truth claims I am positing and believing that they are true claims.

[00:26:42]Okay. So, so one of the truth claims, >> which is what I said multiple times.

[00:26:46]>> Gotcha. So, the one of the truth claims is that the Book of Mormon is from God.

[00:26:50]Now, I we're going back to the original question that I had.

[00:26:53]>> Can you can you display any evidence without presupposing the Book of Mormon being true, which will be circular reasoning as to why this book is from God and not from Satan?

[00:27:05]>> Yeah. So, one of the reasons is what does this what does I believe it's scripture. Why do I believe it's scripture? Well, I believe scripture testifies that Jesus is the Christ.

[00:27:19]>> Muslims testify he's the Messiah as well. Are they true, too?

[00:27:23]>> No, because that's a false equivalence because >> No, because Yeah, >> how do you know they're false?

[00:27:30]>> What's again? Again, again, can I answer your question? the the false equivalent standard there is the Book of Mormon doesn't claim the same concept of Jesus like the Muslims the the that so that's one issue the second issue is the Book of Mormon unequivocally states that Jesus is an eternal God do you disagree with that claim the Book of >> Mor so host listen to what you just did okay what you just did was this when you said I believe the Book of Mormon is true because it claims that Christ is the Messiah and you can even add all those other things but then when I said the the book of Islam, the Quran claims that Jesus is also the Messiah.

[00:28:10]>> Hold on.

[00:28:10]>> Incorrect. It does not claim it does not claim what my what my contingency what what what my distinction was. My distinction was is that the Book of Mormon claims that Jesus is the eternal God.

[00:28:21]>> I got you. So here I'm going to add that. I'm going to add that. I'm not going to misrepresent you. I'm going to steal man you here a second and then I want to explain how this is a problem.

[00:28:29]So, real quick, you said the Book of Mormon is true because it claims to be the M Jesus as the Messiah. The Quran also claims that. You said no, that's not true because and then you added other things that would make it contingent.

[00:28:43]>> No, I said you have a false equivalence.

[00:28:45]>> A false equivalence in as far as Messiah because you didn't mention the other things first.

[00:28:50]>> Again, I clarified my distinction and you're attacking the reference point. So here, >> so learn to steal man what I actually didn't say Christ was the eternal God.

[00:29:01]>> You steal man what I said cuz I made a distinction attempt that you were going to go to the Quran about the homicide.

[00:29:07]>> Okay, fair enough. I I don't want I honestly don't want to misrepresent you.

[00:29:10]So I'm going to I'm going to attempt to steal man and when I'm done if I'm incorrect I'm willing to hear your correction and what I said wrong. So I asked you what are the reasons as to why the Book of Mormon is true? You said because it claims as Christ as the Messiah. You didn't elaborate further.

[00:29:26]Then I said, "Well, the Quran claims the same thing. Is that true?" You said, "No." And then you said, "Because it makes other claims that is not true with as far as God, Jesus being an eternal God." Did I still man you correctly?

[00:29:39]>> Uh, not really.

[00:29:41]>> No. Okay. Clarify. Go ahead. I'm listening.

[00:29:44]>> Real quick, cuz he gave multiple points and you only singled out one and and it was the one where he says that the Book of Mormon testifies that Jesus is Christ. I don't think you remember the parts where he said the Book of Mormon also affirms and testifies of the truthfulness of the Gospels and the Bible as well which within the Quran.

[00:30:03]>> The Quran doesn't hold on hold on hold on the Quran does not hold on hold >> the Quran test attests that Jesus is the eternal God as far as the Gospels is what I'm referring to.

[00:30:15]>> Okay. So it it quite literally >> the New Testament in whole >> the Gospels which is what it does.

[00:30:21]affirms the New Testament as a whole. Is that what you're saying?

[00:30:24]>> It just affirms the Gospels, which is what Henry mentioned, and it affirms the the Torah and uh the Psalms.

[00:30:30]>> Okay. Do you see how he's picked?

[00:30:32]>> Yeah. He's not >> He's focusing on one thing. That's the issue.

[00:30:36]>> It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. So, here's Bear. Uh show me show me where it testifies Jesus is as God in the in the Quran.

[00:30:44]>> Never made the claim that it did.

[00:30:46]>> Hold on. You said you said he you said he they affirm or that the Quran affirms the gospels.

[00:30:53]>> Let look guys listen no listen real quick.

[00:30:58]>> No, you literally let me clarify my Quran affirms the gospels.

[00:31:02]>> Excuse me.

[00:31:03]>> Oh my gosh, bro. Quran talking about Hold up. Hold up. Hold up.

[00:31:08]>> Go to chapter 5 verse 48.

[00:31:10]>> Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Let's have a more I'm going to let Henry finish. I'm gonna let Bear get the last word out and then we're going to move to a topic that I think is going to be more fruitful.

[00:31:19]>> That's fine.

[00:31:21]>> So finish and then I'll let Bear finish.

[00:31:23]>> So yeah. So the point the point is this is quite funny. If if you're going to say these two quite literally affirm the Gospels, the Book of Mormon and then also the Quran. And you're going to use that as an argument, then you got to look at the Gospels and say which one actually affirms the Gospels? the one that misuses the word Christ in regards to Jesus's role or the one that the other one that says that Jesus is the one the savior, the son of God, the Messiah and also the the God of Israel.

[00:31:52]So which one would be the one testifying of the actual gospels and which one is just saying something in order to appeal to an audience while actually teaching something contrary? And so like that's that's the whole point and it's the this little mental gymnastics he's trying to do.

[00:32:10]>> It's not Henry. Um and can I speak up Henry >> Bear I'll let you finish.

[00:32:15]>> Thank you. And please with no interruption. Thank you. I appreciate it. Listen brother, >> I'll give you a timer cuz I don't need you to monologue.

[00:32:21]>> I'm not going to monologue, bro. I'm not longwinded, brother. I'm not longwinded.

[00:32:24]Okay. So, um Henry, the reason why I brought up the Quran is not because I believe that you guys believe the same thing as the Muslims. Okay? So if you thought that that's what I was communicating, that's not it's called an argument of consistency. He brought he brought up the fact that Christ being the Messiah is one of the reasons why he believes the book is telling the truth.

[00:32:43]But the Quran also mentions that as well. Now I agree. I agree that the Quran and the Book of Mormon are not going to be in line. But see, this is where it presents a problem because you have there's presuppositions that you guys have about the Book of Mormon that if it checks off this box, this list of things, then I know this is from God and not from Satan. And I'm challenging that criteria that you guys are applying. Why is it that if it Okay, if it's a straw man, then what is the criteria to that that you guys use to know that this is not from Satan?

[00:33:17]>> Please answer that question.

[00:33:18]>> No, no, no. again. You're presupposing one Satan is real.

[00:33:26]>> You're saying, "Oh, wait. Hold on. Um, you're saying you're >> No, I'm just showing I'm just showing I'm just showing that you are also presupposing something.

[00:33:34]>> Oh, brother. I'm not opposed to all presuppositions. I'm okay with that.

[00:33:38]>> Okay. Okay. So, you're presupposing that God is real and you're presupposing >> I'm assuming that. Yes.

[00:33:43]>> Now, before your comment section and all your little minions go crazy, relax.

[00:33:47]Also presupposing And you're also positing a claim within the presupposition and that is Satan can inspire a text that testifies that Jesus is the eternal God. So if you believe that process, you would have to substantiate how and where you have that epistemological understanding.

[00:34:10]>> So first of all, bro, I'm not saying that all presuppositions are bad. All I'm saying is, and by the way, I don't I don't mind you having the presupposition as far as whatever you're using to to believe in this book. The question is why a certain presupposition? Cuz if there's something that I'm not presupposing, I want I would like a >> sub. I need you to answer the question though that I just posited to you.

[00:34:32]>> What? No. No, you didn't.

[00:34:34]>> Yeah, I did.

[00:34:36]>> You're using to know that it's not from Satan.

[00:34:38]>> I asked you a question. Are you going to answer the question?

[00:34:42]>> Question is not giving me an answer.

[00:34:44]I what are you talking about?

[00:34:46]>> He asked.

[00:34:46]>> Let's start again. What's the criteria using bear? Can you engage with the question and answer it or no?

[00:34:53]>> I don't think you're engaging with my question, bro.

[00:34:56]>> I don't I I've I've given you now five different epistemological understandings that I affirm and believe >> that are circular and facious.

[00:35:06]>> Okay. So you have yet to to describe and show how they're circular or facious while also not undermining your own presuppositions >> because you're presupposing that Satan cannot write a book like the Book of Mormon that can deceive people into thinking into a false Jesus religion.

[00:35:24]Why? Now, if you're Now, one just one more just one more thing. How about intense?

[00:35:28]>> There's a presupposition in that in that answer, though.

[00:35:31]>> Hold on, bro. You're presupposing.

[00:35:33]>> I already told you presuppositions are not all the way bad, bro. Now, listen, listen, listen to what I'm going to say.

[00:35:38]Listen what I'm going to say.

[00:35:39]>> This is just presuppositional apologetics.

[00:35:41]>> I'm okay with you presupposing that Satan cannot write the Book of Mormon.

[00:35:47]As long as you can substantiate why >> we've without using Felicia's reasoning by the way.

[00:35:54]>> No, hold up, hold up. I need you to answer this based on your presupposition.

[00:36:00]Where can you come to your justification that that the devil can inspire a book that testifies of Christ in such a way that affirms that he is the eternal God and the mediator?

[00:36:12]>> Islam. I think Islam would be a good case study of that.

[00:36:15]>> Okay. Where in the Quran does it testify that Jesus is eternal?

[00:36:21]>> Well, um, >> son of God and God, >> brother, I didn't say that it testifies of him being eternal. It doesn't have to.

[00:36:28]>> The Book of Mormon does, though. So, again, my question still stands.

[00:36:31]>> No, let's stop right there.

[00:36:32]>> My question still stands. I'm waiting for your No, no, no, no. Bear, I'm answer the question. Stop running from the question.

[00:36:38]>> I'm not running from the question. Let's deal with it. Why is No, you're not. Why is that a criteria presupposing?

[00:36:44]>> Why is that?

[00:36:44]>> You're presupposing >> cuz you're >> Oh my gosh, bro.

[00:36:48]>> Why is that a criteria? Why? Why does a book >> You're attacking You're attacking my five points with your presuppositions.

[00:36:56]That's the issue. So now I'm questioning your presuppositions, Bear, and I'm asking you to substantiate why you believe that the devil could inspire a text that testifies that Jesus is the eternal God. I need you to now substantiate that or I I got 19 guests and I will move on.

[00:37:20]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, it's possible because if he can if he can testify that Christ is an eternal God, but still have a false testimony of this eternal God, he can then deceive people like you that believe anything that says Christ is eternal, therefore it's from God and misleading you into a religion. Now, how can that not be >> pro? All right. Now, now, now give scriptural evidence for that. Now, >> but we're not doing the scriptural evidence right now. We're doing episode.

[00:37:50]It's all It's all trust me, bro. Like this.

[00:37:53]>> It's not trust me, bro. This is just epistemology.

[00:37:57]>> Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. By that same standard, you I could posit the same claim into the biblical text >> and Satan's using the biblical text to divide you against yourself.

[00:38:08]>> They didn't say you can't, but what's the answer?

[00:38:10]>> And then that is also positing that Jesus. What's your response?

[00:38:13]>> Hold up. Hold up. Oh, I'm shaking, guys.

[00:38:15]Oh, >> bro. I think I think the only thing that's been shown here is is the double standards and and the lack of intel.

[00:38:24]What was the double standard I gave?

[00:38:26]>> You still haven't answered my question.

[00:38:27]That's why I'm frustrated.

[00:38:29]>> I don't care about the I care about that you still haven't answered my question.

[00:38:33]>> What was the double standard?

[00:38:34]>> That's my issue.

[00:38:35]>> Bear bear, can you just answer my question?

[00:38:38]>> Go ahead. What's your question? And then would you answer my question?

[00:38:41]>> Sure.

[00:38:42]Where is your belief system substantiate the idea that Jesus can inspire a text that testifies that Jesus is the eternal God and the God of which they came down and died for my sins?

[00:38:55]>> Yeah. Satan. Lucifer.

[00:38:57]>> Yeah, I was thrown off.

[00:38:58]>> Oh, sorry. Sorry. Lucifer.

[00:39:02]Thanks, Lucifer. Where where is that?

[00:39:05]Answer that question.

[00:39:06]>> Well, why couldn't he do it?

[00:39:08]>> I I'm asking you. Answer the question.

[00:39:11]Do you believe he can?

[00:39:13]>> I don't I don't see I don't see why this wouldn't be possible.

[00:39:17]>> Answer the question. Do you believe that Satan can inspire a text that testifies that Jesus is the eternal God >> and that he died for my sins and he is the mediator with the father? Do you believe that >> I believe that Satan can inspire a false text and still mention Jesus being an eternal God? Yes. that died for my sins.

[00:39:40]>> died for your sins. Yes.

[00:39:43]>> So, okay.

[00:39:46]So, Jesus gives Satan in your belief system the authority to build a text that posits that he died for his sins.

[00:39:58]And that text can can be inspired by Satan. You believe that?

[00:40:01]>> Wait, you're saying Satan cannot do things to deceive people? He He created Satan and he gave Satan authority to to testify falsely through a text that Jesus is the eternal God and he died for my sins. Satan has the authority to >> I don't I don't I don't know cuz when it comes to Well, when it comes to I think you and I have different beliefs as far as what Satan has authority to do.

[00:40:26]>> I'm just asking you a question. Is it yes or no?

[00:40:28]>> Yeah, but it's not as simple as that.

[00:40:30]So, if you allow me >> It is. Do you believe that?

[00:40:32]>> It's not as simple as that cuz you and I have two different paradigms. But I do I just want to clear.

[00:40:36]>> No, no, no. It's a simple It's a simple question. I need you to let me talk, bro. You got to let me talk.

[00:40:40]>> I need you to engage. I've been very patient allowing you guys to finish, but you got to let me talk.

[00:40:45]>> Yeah, brother. I just want to get an answer out of you. Like, I don't know if you know how to answer questions.

[00:40:50]>> Well, that's how East Orthodox.

[00:40:52]>> I was just I just answered your question directly after I No, you didn't. Yes, I did.

[00:40:56]>> You didn't. Okay.

[00:40:57]>> All you did is deflect.

[00:40:58]>> Is what was your answer? Yes. Not to Yeah. I I agreed that it is possible for Satan to inspire a text to that claims Jesus and is an eternal God as long as it's a false >> and died for our sins.

[00:41:12]>> and die for our sins. As long as it's false through him, we can gain eternal life.

[00:41:16]>> As long as it's false by the way he's portraying Jesus. Yes, it's false.

[00:41:19]>> Okay. What is your justification for it being false?

[00:41:22]>> So, you're asking me to prove You're asking me to prove how Satan is has the possibility of doing that? You said you said yeah you literally said on the basis of on the basis of as long as >> I just guys guys seriously like like are you guys like for example like is it possible >> is it possible for you to run a mile at a certain period of time? Yes. Can I prove that? No. But it's possible.

[00:41:47]>> Now the the claim would be for you guys to say it's not possible and for you guys to provide reasons as to why it couldn't be.

[00:41:54]>> No. Incorrect. You've now strawman us again.

[00:41:57]>> Okay. Why couldn't he be possible in your worldview? Help me understand.

[00:42:01]>> I just taught you because we we then believe the idea that the old that the New Testament is scripture. We also have modern prophets that have revealed and we also have the Holy Spirit that has testified >> based on my understanding. All of these things are from God.

[00:42:20]>> Exactly.

[00:42:21]>> But I'm questioning.

[00:42:24]>> So you don't believe that the Bible's from God? No, I'm talking about >> So, do you agree with that presupposition? Yes or no?

[00:42:30]>> I don't agree that you guys have modern prophets, dude.

[00:42:33]>> Okay, I understand. But do you do you presuppose that the Bible is the word of God?

[00:42:38]>> So, how are you providing this as evidence?

[00:42:41]>> I'm Okay, I won't use that because you don't agree with it. Do you do you presuppose that the Bible is the word of God?

[00:42:47]>> Okay. So, we both can agree that the B biblical text is from God, >> inspired by God. Yes.

[00:42:55]>> Okay.

[00:42:56]So if it's inspired by God and I'm going to use this understanding of mutual agreement, I won't use my modern prophets for some reason because you you believe it's a presupposition based on the biblical text which I said is part of my five that you still haven't dealt with this entire time.

[00:43:13]You've only dealt with one and you're running all over the place with the one >> the same point the whole time, bro.

[00:43:20]You're the one that's bouncing around.

[00:43:22]>> No, you haven't.

[00:43:24]So, so the biblical text because we've posited this and you kind of ran around it that if it says we both believe that the Bible is the word of God. Let me finish this thought. We both believe the Bible is the word of God. It says within the biblical text that two things, how we know an angel is sent from God and how we know an angel is not sent from God.

[00:43:44]That's what the biblical text teaches and testifies of. It also testifies that Jesus Christ >> that you're interpreting that text correctly.

[00:43:51]>> Okay. So then tell me how I'm not interpreting it correctly.

[00:43:55]>> Are you interpreting say the same thing in return? We can say you're not interpreting it correctly.

[00:44:00]>> Hold on, bro. Henry, chill out, bro.

[00:44:01]>> He I think he agrees with that there. I mean, Henry.

[00:44:04]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, listen. Listen. I would if you're going to interpret the New Testament under the lens of a Latter-day Saint, I would expect that from you, but that would >> No, I'm I'm doing it based on a Christian state.

[00:44:15]>> If you allow me if you allow me. No, we we're not we don't believe in the same paradigm. We can't we can't agree to that. So anyways, if you're going to interpret a text in a new in the New Testament and provide it as evidence as to how Satan cannot do this, you're interpreting it under the lens and under the pretense that the Book of Mormon is true, which is precisely what I'm >> No, I'm not. No, I'm not.

[00:44:35]>> Okay.

[00:44:36]>> I'm saying >> we cannot we cannot use your interpretation of the text or mine, by the way, because you wouldn't accept mine as evidence either.

[00:44:44]>> So that's why we're using >> Bro, no. Incorrect.

[00:44:47]>> Okay, go ahead. How is that incorrect?

[00:44:48]>> Incorrect. We both we both agree that the biblical text is from God. Correct?

[00:44:55]>> Yes.

[00:44:56]>> Okay. Can we both use the biblical text to support the notion or to not to to approve or disapprove the idea that the the the Book of Mormon came from >> We have completely different beliefs as to who God is.

[00:45:09]>> I I know you believe in an evil God. I don't.

[00:45:13]>> Bro, the the rhetoric the rhetoric ain't going to work, bro. But nonetheless, it's true.

[00:45:17]>> Yeah. No. Yeah, that's fine. You can say, you can say that's true. You can come on my live and bring that.

[00:45:21]>> That's irrelevant. That's irrelevant about who >> you're right. Bringing up my God being evil is irrelevant. It's you running from my >> You're the one that brought up your God to begin with.

[00:45:30]>> You asked us in the beginning.

[00:45:31]>> I said you and I would have been a completely different God, bro.

[00:45:34]>> Right. I wasn't even talking about God to begin with in this context. I was talking about you throwing you throwing that in there.

[00:45:40]>> Can you follow along and not and not you just deflected?

[00:45:44]>> No. No worries, bro. No worries. Now, >> you and I hold up. Hold up. Hold up. You just deflected when you brought up.

[00:45:53]>> Hold up. Hold up. I'll let you talk. You >> Okay. And I'm muting you cuz you're being disrespectful.

[00:46:00]>> Why being disrespectful?

[00:46:02]>> Because you shifted. I asked you a question. And every time I ask you a question, you always shift. This is how it's so hard to have a conversation with Eastern Orthodoxy >> individuals. You guys shift so much. I asked you, can we both use the biblical text to support our notion or to disprove our notions? You haven't answered that. You You went into God.

[00:46:20]>> We believe in two different gods. Answer the question.

[00:46:22]>> Yes. So, I'll answer the question. We believe in two different gods. So, the answer is the question. It's on the >> answer is no.

[00:46:28]>> The answer is no.

[00:46:29]>> On the premise of the Bible, can we or >> on the premise that the Bible is inspired by God?

[00:46:34]>> If we're going to interpret any of the text, then no.

[00:46:39]>> Okay. So, how how how are we supposed to come to this?

[00:46:42]So, here's the thing, cuz this is this is what this is what e Eastern Orthodox people do all the time, and they freaking shift the gold belt 24/7. So, if if the premise is no, then how are you supposed to come to a a logical I guess you could say conclusion on anything during this during this dialogue or debate? Like you can't because the premise of the premises that are going to be promoted from each side are going to be rejected on the premise of that's a presupposition just like we do with you. This is your favorite word is presupposition.

[00:47:16]Correct. Is is that not the basis of the like the argument is going to be on the basis of presupposition?

[00:47:27]I think um sorry Henry I I didn't hear the last part you said >> so I said on the on the premise like this is this is what we're talking about he says then we can't have any sort of of logical communicative dialogue simply because you want to we can't find a common ground cuz you want to automatically take that away in order to hold a presupposition like position on anything that is presented in as an argument you would say it's true on your end it's true on our And so how is there any justification?

[00:48:00]Cuz in this in this case, this is you could just say we're presupposing and then we can just say everything that you're saying is a presupposition as well that your view of God and your interpretation of the scriptures are wrong. And then there's no there's no objective validity behind it cuz you already admitted that yours is a presupposition as well. So it's just circular. It's going in a circle. So how are you supposed to have dialogue and ask for these questions which we provided? We g we've given you we've given you multiple points and then your response is no. It's a presupposition.

[00:48:28]So we can say the same thing over and over and over again. And any any evidence that you provide forward, we're just going to say the same thing because we're going to say that you're wrong.

[00:48:38]>> Okay. Um host can you give me a timer so that I can I can respond without being interrupted? You can put whatever time you want.

[00:48:49]Uh I didn't need big screen, bro. Just the timer.

[00:48:55]Okay. So, listen. Bottom line is this.

[00:48:58]I'm going along with you guys as far as what you guys believe. I want to hear why it is that you believe this. My question was, what is the why is that?

[00:49:06]Is it not possible that this book came from Satan? Now, the response should be, well, the reasons why we know why is because of ABC, which you guys tried to do. The problem with the evidence that you guys provided, it has a presupposition that the Book of Mormon already has to come from God. Every piece of evidence you guys provided had that, which would be circular reasoning.

[00:49:35]This is the same thing the Muslims do.

[00:49:36]If we're going to go off of your criteria, then Islam is also true. And you can't deny that, host, because you said all religion is subjective and you can't objectively know anything. So Islam might be true too along with the Book of Mormon. So we should go read the Quran. We should read the Book of Mormon. We should read the Had >> another straw man. Good job.

[00:50:01]>> And your timer's done.

[00:50:03]>> You guys can believe in the same.

[00:50:04]>> Are you going to Are you going to crash out now?

[00:50:07]>> No, I'm just I'm just letting you guys >> Okay. Okay. Your timer's done.

[00:50:10]>> You guys are no better than >> Straw Man.

[00:50:13]I I think you >> you can't you can't even hold a single.

[00:50:17]First off, you can't even answer what I said.

[00:50:19]>> Hold up. Hold up, Henry. Hold up, Henry.

[00:50:21]This is funny.

[00:50:23]You straw manned our entire point. You didn't deal with one of our points. I hope you post this on whatever page you have, and I hope you get a ton of likes from your minions. The sad part here is all you did is you lacked the intellectual honesty to deal with the actual points and you couldn't follow with any of the points and we couldn't even build on commonality. You kept shifting the topics based on commonality. You kept presupposing multiple things. That's the issue. So I I appreciate you coming up. God bless you, Bear. I'm going to go to the next guest and I hope it's one of your other Eastern Orthodox friends. Unless you can give me justification for your grounding that you use to suppose or teach or preach that the Book of Mormon is from Satan.

[00:51:17]If you can do that, I'll leave you up.

[00:51:19]If you can't, then I'm going to move on to the next guest.

[00:51:21]>> Well, I don't need to because you can't disprove it.

[00:51:24]>> Gotcha. God bless. You can't prove anything that you believe. Can you share this?

[00:51:29]>> You were an atheist.

[00:51:30]>> This can I I like I like how the fact that he's like one all the biblical points he said well you're you're not interpreting it correctly but at the same time I'm not going to interpret it while I'm up here.

[00:51:41]>> What an idiot.

[00:51:42]>> Right? It's like hey because we fundamentally have a different God. I'm not going to even engage with scripture.

[00:51:49]That's the cope.

[00:51:51]Hey, you can't use your prophets, but I'm going to presuppose that all my church fathers had succession and get all everything right.

[00:51:58]>> Right.

[00:52:00]>> Right. And the thing is is I was going to go to the text based on commonality, but all his little minions in the chat and him himself that and he himself can't realize is they already undermined that the Bible is not sufficient in their belief system and it can't be. In fact, the Bible is so worthless that they can't even use scripture to ground their belief system in their belief.

[00:52:25]They have to use these philosophical thought in order to substantiate any worldview they're about to to teach from. They cannot use the biblical text.

[00:52:35]That's the issue.

[00:52:38]And they run away from the biblical text every single time. And it's always trust me, bro.

[00:52:43]while I also presuppose that my church fathers and my understanding of these things is correct. That's the sadness of their whole of his whole he he couldn't engage the entire thing.

[00:52:55]>> So I like how he he completely shut down the fact that Paul said no man can testify that Jesus is the Christ without having the spirit. I like how he like completely just derailed.

[00:53:09]Oh, it's because again again he's an atheist in the biblical text in that way. We can't have commonality that the biblical text comes from God. We can't >> because he believes that it doesn't come from God inherently because he believes his church fathers are more authoritative and philosophy is and tradition is more authority authoritative than the Bible.

[00:53:30]>> Yes.

[00:53:30]>> So so I want to ask him how does that not affect Paul? How can we have any confidence that Paul himself was not inspired by the devil? Does that make sense?

[00:53:40]>> Again, again, his argument he he won't even engage in any type of biblical understanding. His his whole the whole point I knew what he was going to do and this is my issue with Eastern Orthodox is they they're trying to understand Latter- Day Saint epistemology and our epistemology is I gave him five sorts of criteria of how I know that the Book of Mormon is not inspired by the devil. He didn't deal with any of them.

[00:54:04]That's my issue. He dealt with the underlying factor of what the five points are correlated to. That's the sad part.

[00:54:12]>> Yeah. But restored, can you prove that Satan couldn't have appeared to Paul and that Paul couldn't have just been deceived by Satan this whole time? Can you prove that the case?

[00:54:22]>> That was the stupidest freaking argument ever >> on the >> No, I can't prove it.

[00:54:31]>> So, here here's my point, too. He completely misar characterized and he tried to throw in the whole Muslim conflation in there too because he wanted to presuppose for a second that the only argument that that despite the five arguments that Chuck presented, he wanted to single out the one where Jesus says we testify that Jesus is the Christ. And he took that and said, "Okay, if this is your argument, this one thing right here, Muslims must be correct because they do the same thing."

[00:54:59]He didn't want to engage with what I clarified the distinction as. He ran with the whole Messiah thing.

[00:55:05]>> Yeah. Exactly. Which which anyone who has a logical mind knows they define Messiah and the role of Jesus very differently. And that's why I asked him, I said, "Where does it say that Jesus is the son of God? Where does it say that he's God?" But he, of course, he didn't want to actually attack that point. So, like I I I still don't understand how he doesn't realize his whole like apparently his his big argument like prove that Satan couldn't have done this that undermines the whole Bible. You could just say, "Well, prove that Satan didn't like >> Well, that was my argument of of going to the biblical text is that he he he believes that Satan >> he this is he actually said this, which is crazy, and I'm going to clip it.

[00:55:46]He believes that sat that Satan was given authority by Jesus Christ. And Satan has the authority from God to then create a book that testifies that Jesus is the eternal God and that through Jesus Christ I can be saved because he died for my sins. He believes God gave Satan that ultimate authority and Satan can do that.

[00:56:15]Is that wild?

[00:56:18]>> No. Yeah.

[00:56:19]>> So, he can lit he has the same authority as Jesus Christ to testify of the same thing Christ and his apostles testified.

[00:56:25]>> Hey, this funny. See if Rudy will come up. I think Rudy's saying something kind of funny in the comments. I I >> That's the wild thing. It's like, are you kidding me? You're telling me that Jesus created Satan with the foreign knowledge of Satan rebellion, by the way, and Satan is now given authority to testify of the same gospel of which Christ and his apostles testified of.

[00:56:46]Like, what?

[00:56:48]It's wild.

[00:56:51]>> Yeah. So, I guess Christ um well, we our interpretation of Christ saying a house divided can't stand. I guess our interpretation doesn't matter because he his is better than >> because he he's presupposing its faults already because of our differing views of God.

[00:57:05]>> Yeah. I I I wonder I wanted him to un such a facious argument.

[00:57:10]>> I wanted him to unpack and give at least an interpretation so it could be internally critiqued itself. If you're going to say that the interpretations are going to be are going to vary differently, then I I imagine your interpretation is going to be something catastrophically different than what we understand that to mean. A house divided upon itself will not stand. Let me hear what your interpretation is. But he doesn't want to actually engage with the house.

[00:57:33]>> He won't go there.

[00:57:34]>> No, of course he won't.

[00:57:35]>> He won't go there.

[00:57:38]>> He won't go there.

[00:57:39]>> Hey, Bear. I mean, I'm excited, bro.

[00:57:41]It'll be a fun It'll be a fun clip. Yo, um, read it.

[00:57:48]>> Yeah, what's up, dude?

[00:57:50]>> I I got I got I heard an argument the other day. It was actually from Alex O' Conor. I thought it was a pretty good one. Uh, you know how they talk about the being of God is love according to scripture, that God is love, like stuff like that.

[00:58:05]>> Yeah. I mean, so if you're classical the he that is just God. He is like Yeah.

[00:58:12]>> Perfect. So I heard this argument Jesus says the greatest act of love that one can do is laying down his life for another. And so I heard this argument where it was like uh Jesus must be truly the full god above any other god even within the godhead because he has so he has done something greater and in spite of what scripture says about what love is the greatest sign of love is that the father has not done and that is give his life for another person.

[00:58:46]Yeah. I mean the cope with that would be Yeah. But he's the same being as >> it's not his role.

[00:58:54]>> Yeah. No, no, no. But it is because they Well, yeah. It's it's the being the being is still acting upon it, right?

[00:59:00]But this being is still not the other person. So like if you're going to tra if you're going to play the roles, if you're going to say that they're truly distinct, you would have to say the being of God in the person of Jesus has something greater than the father.

[00:59:16]Yeah, but David, >> okay, claimed the one.

[00:59:21]>> Rudy, what did you want to say?

[00:59:24]>> Um, I just wanted I don't know why he didn't go down this line of reasoning, but um would you guys say just about the possibility of the Book of Mormon testifying that Christ is the eternal God and still being inspired demonically, um would you say that the Quran contains some truth?

[00:59:45]Uh what do you mean by that?

[00:59:46]>> Is there any truth in the Quran? Like like any theological?

[00:59:52]>> So for example, when it says Jesus is the Messiah, is that a true statement in the Quran?

[00:59:57]>> That's that's what I'm asking you. I'm asking you the question.

[01:00:00]>> I believe that that's a true statement.

[01:00:02]Yes.

[01:00:03]>> Okay.

[01:00:03]>> I also I also believe I also believe that the statement that the Torah is from God is also a true statement in the Quran.

[01:00:10]>> Okay. Well, my point is >> Jesus was born of a virgin would be interesting too.

[01:00:15]>> So they may not mean the same.

[01:00:17]>> Don't you affirm that or no?

[01:00:20]>> What? Yeah. No. No. No. Yeah. But I would say obviously >> Do you agree with us there?

[01:00:24]>> Yeah. So I would say that their concept of Messiah may be different, but it is pointing to >> correct.

[01:00:29]>> Yeah, it's different, but it's pointing to a similar reality, >> right? Um, >> so do you believe that the the Quran could be demonically inspired?

[01:00:39]I believe there's aspects in the Quran that do not come from God. Yes.

[01:00:44]>> Okay. Um, but do you think it could be like demonically inspired? Like Muhammad was possessed by a demon and >> I I I haven't I I have I've read.

[01:00:56]>> Do you think it's possible? I'm not saying do you think it is. I'm saying do you think it's possible?

[01:01:00]>> Do I believe in demonic demonic uh what's the word? Uh someone being uh what's the word >> where you need Yeah. possessed.

[01:01:11]>> Yeah.

[01:01:11]>> Um I believe someone can be demonically possessed. Yeah.

[01:01:14]>> Yeah. I'm asking in the So I'm asking do you think in the case of the Quran that it's at least possible that it um could have came from a demonically inspired origin?

[01:01:25]Like possible? Just possible. I'm not saying probable or anything like that, but do you believe it's possible?

[01:01:30]I I don't think that the Quran was written in a one sitdown way, including the Quran we have today.

[01:01:38]>> I'm just asking possibility. I'm not asking if you believe it is.

[01:01:42]>> I believe that there's bits of the Quran that can be inspired by by the demon by a by not God. Yes.

[01:01:50]>> Okay. Um >> I also believe that there's bits in there that could have been inspired by God as well.

[01:01:55]So, do you think that like a demon could could deceive could give us a certain foundation of truth or give us some truths like in in the Bible or not in the Bible, some some truths from the Bible, right, for a book. And then >> So, here here I'll help you with this cuz I know what you're trying to do. The Book of Mormon affirms and teaches something that all of Christianity believes in. Mhm.

[01:02:23]>> And nowhere does it teach something that Christianity doesn't believe in.

[01:02:26]>> Well, I I'm just trying to ask about the possibility. So, just purely >> and so the possibility of this is that Satan can inspire a text to an certain extent.

[01:02:37]>> But the time but the things within the text that he isn't inspiring are the things that are testifying of God.

[01:02:46]>> Well, but in James 21:19 it says even the demons know, right? So, >> yeah, but that doesn't that doesn't mean that demons have the ability and authority >> to testify and teach that Jesus died for my sins. Unless you think that a demon can do that.

[01:03:02]>> I think that a demon could >> start with a foundation of truth and then deceive from that foundation like in the case of the Quran.

[01:03:09]>> Okay. All right. Real quick, uh, Rudy.

[01:03:12]So, if a demon is trying to steer you away from God, what his what what his objective purpose or what Would his first acts of trying to deceive you be telling you, "Hey, Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior. Follow him."

[01:03:33]>> I'm not asking whether it's convincing or anything like that. I'm asking if it's possible. No, I don't have to play the part of the game.

[01:03:39]>> No, that's fine. That's That's fine. We We already gave you We already answered that question. Now I'm asking.

[01:03:44]>> So, you're saying it's impossible?

[01:03:45]Impossible.

[01:03:46]>> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm asking you. I didn't say that. Did that come out of my mouth?

[01:03:52]>> Yes or no?

[01:03:52]>> Well, that's what I'm concerned with.

[01:03:54]So, that's the question.

[01:03:55]>> All right. All right. Well, we answered your questions already. So, we're follow We're asking a follow-up question on the basis of >> We have Is it possible or not?

[01:04:02]>> Hold on. So, we have we literally said that there entire >> not in entirety. That's the So, hold up.

[01:04:10]The issue is is you're positing that that the demon sat Muhammad down or whoever wrote the Quran and inspired the entire thing.

[01:04:20]Correct.

[01:04:20]>> I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's possible that it could have that could have been the case.

[01:04:26]>> Okay. Do you believe that it is?

[01:04:29]>> Uh I'm not sure. I don't know if it's what what case of of the Quran. I don't believe it to be true, but I wouldn't necessarily say that it's inspired. I'm just saying it's possible. It's a possible explanation.

[01:04:39]>> Okay. Go with your argument. If it's possible that Paul >> Yeah. So, so the the Quran >> possible that Paul >> Well, hold on. Read it. Let me Can I finish my argument real quick?

[01:04:50]>> So, premise one, the Quran contains truth. Premise two, it it it possibly can be demonically inspired. Premise three, books with even some truth can deceive from that foundation of truth.

[01:05:03]>> That That's the premise. I disagree with you. So, you know, who makes the distinction of what is true and what isn't true?

[01:05:11]>> What? What? Hold on. I'm I'm trying to get a common ground here. Okay.

[01:05:15]>> No, you said some truth. I'm asking you who determines what isn't true and what is true.

[01:05:22]>> Like, I don't I don't know. Like, I'm not trying to get into an epistem epistemological discussion here. I'm I'm not trying to I'm just I'm going down a >> because that was the whole point of Bear's argument of his presupposition of rejecting and believing. So this is where Beer's presupposition was coming into play. He's presupposing that his church fathers have the correct understanding of who God is. Right? And therefore due to that nature he doesn't accept the Book of Mormon as the word of God. So the other side of that is it has to be demonically inspired.

[01:05:53]>> I I wouldn't say that it has to be. It could be other things, right? I I don't think that like I'm not one to say >> but that's what I'm saying is that's where he's coming from with his presupposition.

[01:06:03]>> I understand that. But what I'm saying is even if a book contains some truth, right, and can build off a foundation of truth, they can still steer away from that truth and deceive people >> so yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So this is the premise like so that we're talking about if let's just go down this analogy real quick. Let's grant the possibility. Is it possible that Paul could have been conceive or uh could have been uh manipulating all these Christians into following something different from what Jesus taught.

[01:06:35]>> But Henry, here's the difference. I'm not no >> I'm not trying to substantiate. I'm building from a common ground that we both believe the Bible teach ex No, no, no. Cuz this this this would open up the possibility for all scripture in our case.

[01:06:49]>> Well, hold on real real quick. I'm building from the common ground. We both believe the Bible is true. And I'm also building from the common ground that we both believe the Quran is not true.

[01:06:58]>> I hold on hold on. We're not building from the same ground. We're building from the ground of there are things that can be objectively true, parts parts of things and things that cannot. Like like Chuck said all the time like you said it. You literally said it. There are aspects of the Quran that can be true.

[01:07:13]We laid out a couple examples. You agreed to those examples. Okay. Now, what's the premise for what is inspired by God and what isn't inspired by God?

[01:07:22]And so like this is this is what we're trying to get down to. And so if that's the case and this can happen because this can happen with any individual, correct? Yes or no?

[01:07:31]>> Of course. Yeah.

[01:07:32]>> Okay. So then this is if it can happen within any individual then it can also happen within amongst the authors of the Bible.

[01:07:39]>> Yeah. But correct but we both believe that you can you can test things against scripture, right? Against the Bible. But I I know what you're saying from the foundation like that's just presupposing the Bible. But we would both say that we we have church leaders, right? The church can teach things authoritatively.

[01:07:54]>> Right.

[01:07:55]>> Correct.

[01:07:56]>> So we both are built built on that same common ground that we believe that that's how you determine something to be true or not. Right.

[01:08:02]>> All right. Correct. So so with that with you with you saying that then it's possible for all scripture including the Bible with the basis that we have church leadership in order to keep us in line.

[01:08:12]>> Hold up. This is the basic answer that can also hurt you in this thought process. three. Why? And I think it also is the fundamental understanding of the context of the claim of the book and the interpretation thereof because you can read the Bible and come to a horrific interpretation of who God is. I think >> and the Bible can path >> with the council in Na, right?

[01:08:37]>> Kind of. But I would say I would say like Calvinism. Do you believe Calvinism is true?

[01:08:42]>> No. No.

[01:08:43]>> Right. I believe that they have a heretical view of God.

[01:08:47]But where do they get their source text from? Who God is?

[01:08:50]>> Well, they they get it from the Bible, quote unquote, and they interpret it incorrectly because they don't have >> they don't have an authoritative fundamentally. Sure. Sure. Right.

[01:09:01]>> Yeah. That's Yeah. We both have that common ground. Right.

[01:09:04]>> What I'm where he was rejecting that common ground and that commonality.

[01:09:09]>> I don't I don't know why he was rejecting that. Honestly, I don't know why he was rejecting that >> because he knows it would be an issue for him if he found any sort of common ground.

[01:09:18]>> He was trying to hold me to a standard he wasn't willing to hold himself to in his own >> or even epistmology.

[01:09:23]>> Even he wouldn't agree that you guys could both test on scripture like if things aren't are true or not. He wouldn't even >> Right. Right. He wouldn't even agree that >> cuz you could just say like I would say, "Oh, how do we know what the nature of God is?" Like you basically were asking this like could we use scripture to know the nature of God? And he was like no or whatever. Can we use scripture to know something? And he was saying, well, our concept of God is fundamentally different than your concept, so not >> which I guess presupposes the Bible can't do that, which makes no sense.

[01:09:50]>> Yeah. Which I don't I don't agree with.

[01:09:51]All I was all my line of reasoning was going toward was that it's possible for a book to contain truth, but still deceive from that truth. Like they could have >> and so you need And so you need an authoritative interpreter to guide the understanding of what the book is possess of the truthfulness of the book.

[01:10:08]>> I agree. Yeah, we both we we both agree on that, but >> yeah.

[01:10:12]>> Um, and >> what was I going to say? But all I was saying was that I I was just disagreeing with the notion that it's impossible for the Book of Mormon to have been demonically expired inspired just because it it says Christ is the eternal God.

[01:10:30]>> Well, that's not my only claim. He was just trying to compare with the with the Quran. And so I was like, "Hey, where does the Quran testify of this?"

[01:10:39]>> Does it make sense? That's what I was trying to do.

[01:10:41]>> And my whole point is that the Quran contains some truth. It still can be demonically inspired. Therefore, the Book of Mormon contains some truth like Christ is the eternal God. It is still possible to be demonically inspired.

[01:10:52]>> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. But you would have to then pause it where in the Book of Mormon does it teach fundamentally not truth?

[01:10:59]>> Cuz you're saying it has some truth.

[01:11:00]Where does it say what what what does it say that it testifies that it doesn't have truth? Like where in the where in the Book of Mormon is it not true?

[01:11:08]>> I have a question that makes sense.

[01:11:09]>> I have a question for Rudy. Uh I think there can be clearly defined or not defined books that I would believe are demonically inspired. Would you agree with that? Would there be a books that you could would agree that have been written that are demonically inspired?

[01:11:27]Um I I mean yeah I think it's po I I would have to look at each case right but >> like for example I would say the Satanist like scripture that they write I would think that would be probably demonically inspired me personally.

[01:11:42]Yeah. I guess I would just have to ask like in what way is it demonically inspired? Just because they're teaching things of the devil or because like the devil's actually overtaking them and like inspired the same way we would say like as a Catholic maybe not you guys >> that the the Bible's inspired >> that God positively moves the will of the authors of the Bible like in that way. So, so you would you would have to go and see like, okay, is somebody possessed and inspired by the devil to go and write it or is it something that's writing that's teaching that's demonic there? You So, you have two definitions then, I would assume.

[01:12:16]>> Yeah. Like there's a difference between Yeah. There's a difference between like >> like someone being inspired like the by the devil like in the same way the the biblical authors were inspired by God and someone who's just writing things down that are demonic. So that would be very difficult to go and understand if they are demonically inspired compared to understand go and seeing that there is a writing that is demonic. So how would you go?

[01:12:40]>> So how would you what would what the criteria or the standards that you would apply to or know that somebody is demonically inspired I guess is the question I would ask.

[01:12:49]>> H I don't I don't know I I haven't looked that deep into it. I know it's a poss I I know it's a possibility, but I don't know the exact methodology for knowing if someone's possessed by a demon.

[01:13:01]>> Gotcha.

[01:13:03]>> Yeah. No, that that's an interesting like uh thought process, but >> I'm going to go to the next guest.

[01:13:09]>> All right. Yeah, I appreciate it.

[01:13:10]>> All right. Have a good one.

[01:13:12]>> The restored truth is that God has never stopped reaching out to humanity. He continues to reveal, guide, and pursue a relationship with us today. So remember, keep your knees on the ground and your eyes towards heaven.