Three Generations Debate: Are the Parents Alright?

本站添加: 2026-05-31

[00:00:00]People say parenting has gotten harder and parents are reporting more stress, but what was it like 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago?

[00:00:08]>> And you got to step back. And actually, when parents step back, it allows kids to step up more.

[00:00:14]>> Motherhood in America is broken by design. I think it's so hard to have these conversations about what your parenting style should be when we are living in a culture that shames moms.

[00:00:24]>> I think that most people do want to evolve. They do want to parent a little bit differently than their parents do.

[00:00:34]>> Becoming a parent for the first time is a steep learning curve. There's nap schedules, wake windows, feeding schedules, there's getting all the correct gear, learning how to install a car seat. But the learning curve certainly doesn't stop there. The kids get older, and then there's screen time, bedtime, snack time, timeouts. Becoming a parent is taking crash courses on a million decisions again and again and again. Where we get most of our parenting advice has changed. It's no longer from grandparents and friends and pediatricians. Instead, there's been an explosion in the advice industry. Move over Dr. Spock. There are now countless parenting books, courses, and sleep training consultants. And then there's the public forums like Reddit. You can search almost any question and find that someone else has asked it somewhere on the internet with many faceless strangers chiming in with advice and anecdotes. Yet, despite all of this information at our fingertips, people say parenting has gotten harder and parents are reporting more stress. But what was it like 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago? Well, we're not going to go back that far, but we do have three generations today to talk about parenting. a baby boomer, a Gen Xer, and a millennial. First, I want to welcome Lenor Scanazi. Lenor, you were a columnist minding your own business when you went viral in 2008 for a column you wrote about letting your kid ride the subway alone in New York City. He was nine. It ended up going viral and getting you labeled as the world's worst mom. Now, you advocate for more independence for kids with your organization, Let Grow. You wrote a book about raising freerange kids and it's grown into a cultural and political movement. You were recently name checked in a Dunesberry cartoon.

[00:02:28]>> Yes.

[00:02:29]>> I'm delighted to have you today as a fellow baby boomer and as a fellow parent. Tell us about your parenting credentials. How many kids do you have and how old are they?

[00:02:38]>> Oh, are those my credentials? Um, those are your I thought having written that book. Um, so I have two sons. They are 30 and 28.

[00:02:45]>> Okay. Next, Rashma Sajani is with us.

[00:02:49]Rashma, you are an organizer and an advocate with Focus on Women and Girls.

[00:02:54]You founded Girls Who Code in 2012 after a run for Congress. And more recently, you founded and lead Mom's First, an organization that is mobilizing for paid family leave and highquality affordable child care among other things. You also have a po podcast called My So-Called Midlife. That's a big clue that you are Gen X, right? Thank you so much for joining us today. I know from the podcast you have two boys. How old are they?

[00:03:21]>> I have two sons, uh, Sean and Sai. They are six and 11.

[00:03:26]>> Six and 11.

[00:03:28]>> Sandwich generation.

[00:03:29]>> Yeah. Finally, I want to welcome Kristen Goland. You're a parent coach and the co-founder of Big Little Feelings, which has a gigantic social media presence that offers classes for parents and things on things like how to manage explosive feelings, potty training. I guess those two things are both explosive and uh also for how parents wrangle toddlers. You co-host a podcast called After Bedtime with your Big Little Feelings co-founder Dena Margolan. We're glad that you can join us today. You're a millennial and you have three kids. How old are they?

[00:04:06]>> I have a nine-year-old Tula, a seven-year-old Juniper, and then a little boy named Fox, like the animal, right?

[00:04:13]>> How and how old?

[00:04:14]>> He's three.

[00:04:15]>> Three. Okay. All right. So, we got a good age range. And on a personal note, I recently became a father again for the third time. I'm a baby boomer. I've got a six-month-old at home and two adult children. All right. I'm going to start off with a bit of a softball. In one sentence, what is the goal of parenting?

[00:04:35]Kristen, your kids are the youngest. Uh, and so you're really in the trenches.

[00:04:39]You take this one first. What's the goal of parenting?

[00:04:42]>> I'm going to be rebellious and give you two sentences. Okay. One, I believe the goal, what the goal is not >> of parenting is raising a child to be what we want the child to be or what we thought we never could be.

[00:04:58]What I think parenting is is raising a child to be the best, happiest, most successful, most resilient version of their true individual selves.

[00:05:09]>> Okay, great. Uh Rashma, how about you?

[00:05:11]What do you think about, you know, what's the goal of your parenting?

[00:05:14]>> I'm going to continue the rebellion. So, the goal of parenting should not just be what's good for the kids, but what should be what's good for the parents?

[00:05:22]And I think that that's freedom and choice. Freedom and choice >> for parents >> for the kids and the parents >> but mostly freedom and choice for the parents.

[00:05:30]>> Okay. Uh and freedom and choice to like develop their own >> to set up a structure of parenting that gives them freedom and choice.

[00:05:40]>> Okay.

[00:05:40]>> Great. Lenor, your kids are grown up at least chronologically.

[00:05:44]>> Yeah. I'd say even even every which way at this point after some rough times doesn't mean it's all straightforward.

[00:05:50]>> Yeah. And so I mean you're dealing with adult kids. the job never ends but it gives you a different bit of perspective. What do what do you think about the way >> that uh Rashma and Kristen talked about goals? Do you agree with that or what would you add?

[00:06:04]>> Freedom and choice made sense letting them sort of become who they are and that's what you're talking about too. I would soft pedal the idea of they have to become the very best at every you know even happiness that's that's hard to ask for but yeah I mean you're it's going to be hard to find rebellion among us if we think that parents get to raise the kids as the kids >> well >> are unfolding >> let me let me focus or follow up on something that you said though would you would you accept an average kid >> absolutely I think when I say true happiness what I because that's a high bar everybody's happiness is a different level. What I mean is true contentness.

[00:06:42]I mean resiliency. I mean there are setbacks. I mean if they want to be a ski instructor, they're a ski instructor. If they want to what their true self should be and not the most successful, shiny, happy version of themselves.

[00:06:56]>> Do you um uh Rashma, do you buy that or what? And when you say freedom and choice for parents, >> yeah, I'm listening to all this. I mean, listen, I don't spend my time thinking about kids as much as I spend my time thinking about moms because I think part of like when we as we talk about the generational differences, I think the pressures on parents and mothers are so much bigger, right? There's that stat that like parents today, mothers today spend more time with their kids than, you know, I mean, in the 1970s, stay at home, >> working moms, >> working moms more time with their children, 8 hours stay at home, right?

[00:07:31]Yeah. And so we talk a lot about how do we parent our kids and we don't talk enough about well how did we get here right? And so to me like motherhood in America is broken by design. I I say that you know we've been conned for the past 250 years since the ink dried on the constitution. And you know what do I mean by that? It's a long time. But like if you just think about then the boomers here.

[00:07:55]>> Yeah that's right. Yeah. Hard to believe.

[00:07:57]>> Why does the school day end at 3:30?

[00:08:00]Why does it start at nine?

[00:08:03]>> Why? Why do we like even the scheduling of society has been made to put pressure on the caregiver which is most of the time a mother? You know why are parents spend more for child care than their mortgage? Like you're putting people into financial strain >> and we make it so damn hard. I mean that's the point, right? It's like we we not we don't just we we we have so much cultural pressure. I mean, the amount of another article that I read about the declining birth rate and like why I should have a children and like baked sourdough bread at the same time.

[00:08:32]>> Is that different than the the motherhood paradigm that you grew up in?

[00:08:37]The motherhood paradigm I grew up in, which I think we both grew up in, was uh really different in that there was a lot of trust that the kids were going to be okay without constant input from the parents in terms of watching every game, driving them to afterchool activities, making every snack, answering every question, and high-fiving every achievement. And now you're getting the grades from school every day and you have to talk about I saw you got a B+ on the soccer and the Spanish quiz. There's just so much more expected of us as if kids would feel bereft or they would end up like undeveloped.

[00:09:14]>> That one macaroni painting was not preserved forever. Right.

[00:09:18]>> Well, the macaroni paintings were preserved forever, right?

[00:09:21]>> Yeah, that's true. They break down slowly, >> right? But but the mom wasn't saying, "Oh, I like the way you put that piece of macaroni. Want to do another?" That's really I love it. It looks like a smile.

[00:09:30]Doesn't that remind you of a smile?

[00:09:31]Smile starts with S, >> right? That was not happening.

[00:09:35]>> Let me just to kind of adjacent to this um you know how important is parenting because this it kind of follows No, it it follow kind of follows from what you're talking about and there's the um Judith Harris book, the nurture assumption from the late >> down Judith. That's this was a a big book in the late '9s and it basically argued that before you were born the boomers have much much less influence on how kids turn out in past. It's it's mostly like they kind of select a parent.

[00:10:07]>> No, it's that there's so many influences on them, not just the parents.

[00:10:12]>> I mean, do do you feel um do you feel a pressure to be the biggest influence in your kid's life at every moment?

[00:10:21]>> So, I think that this is where our generation and we'll get to social media. I think this is where the misconception is huge. I do not think you need to be at every single sports game. Research does not support that. I do not think that you have to walk over and do macaroni art and then talk about it and then say that's an S. That's a teacher's job. I'm not teaching my kid S's. Now, on the flip side, what we do know is that we are the only mammals that are born, perhaps also orangutang, but we are the only ones who are born underdeveloped. So, a deer when they are born, they just run off. Okay? And so our children when they are born they can't lift their head. There's just explosive growth happening at the beginning of their life between ages zero and five. And how they grow and how they develop is shaped relationally. Now where people get this completely misconstrued and I wish and my my dream is to to shout this from the rooftops.

[00:11:18]This does not mean you have to have the highest pressure and have little cut up cucumber shapes. Never. You don't have to be at every baseball game. All these things that we are doing, pressure on ourselves. If you can relationally stay connected, if you cannot, >> just real quickly, what what does it mean to be relationally connected?

[00:11:37]>> Relationally connected means there's different types of parenting styles, and we'll get to that based on this whole gentle parenting trend, which gentle is the wrong word. If you really boil this down, you do not need to be around your child 24 hours a day. You don't need to be around your child 18 hours a day. You can go to work and when you come home from work, you are excited to see your child. You are not following your child around, shaming them, saying, "What's wrong with you? What's this?" Um, shaping the image of themselves. You are hard on them. You are punishing them.

[00:12:06]You are ascending to their room. You're shaping their brain developmentally, right? And so when you say, "Hey, you're a bad kid. Get in your room. I never want to see you again. And you'll never amount to anything." That's probably going to form the neural pathways like, "Hey, I'm worthless. I'm never going to amount to anything." We all know people as adults who are sitting in their shame who can't get themselves up at the end of the day. And so it's actually a pretty low bar. I think you have to respond correctly 30 to 50% of the time of saying like, "Hey, you're you're cool. I'm here. I'm here for you. I'm always here for you." And that's it.

[00:12:37]>> I really want to talk about I think that this is an important part, but I think to like even Sorry, Nick. To even get there, that's why I think it's so important that we lose sight of the structure. You know, my parents were refugees. They came here with $10 in their pockets and like they were trying to, you know, my father had to change his name, find a job, pay the bills.

[00:12:55]Like there was so much pressure and it was the '8s where quite frankly we're one of the few brown families in a white working-class neighborhood. And that in of itself was like a a a hard challenge and adjustment. And so I think that like to even get to the place where you can put down your shoes, take off your coat, walk through the door and be ready, >> I need to have support.

[00:13:17]>> Correct.

[00:13:18]>> Right. And so to me, that's why we have to start thinking about how are we providing >> families the support, child care, flexibility, race. Right.

[00:13:28]>> You cannot have one without the other.

[00:13:29]You can't have one without let me ask then just as we close out this section and and again to go back to the idea of how do things change over generations or even >> you know parents you know we were children once many of us stay children forever but we're always kind of fighting the last battle but like how has parenting changed you know from the way you were raised to what you want for your kids >> you know what I think I was just telling you the story my parents my mother didn't read my essays at school.

[00:13:59]>> She didn't know what classes I was taking. She barely knew what my teacher's names were. You know, if something happened at school and I got, I don't know, beat up, called a name, then they were in it, right? But for the most >> or if your grades were terrible, like marketkedly terrible.

[00:14:15]>> Yeah.

[00:14:15]>> Can you imagine her with I spent a lot of time and attention? No, I did.

[00:14:20]No, but you're like instead of every% 100% twice a year or 100% they weren't negligent but they were like if I need to intervene I will intervene. So like to me iron and I turned out just fine.

[00:14:33]>> So ironically I was to your kids.

[00:14:38]I was telling Nick the story that when I was doing a parent teacher conference the other week, his teacher starts by saying, "Well, Sai told me that you never open up his backpack, you know."

[00:14:45]And I was like, "Oops." You know, right?

[00:14:47]But my point is is like I've adopted a lot of the parenting style that I was raised with to my kids, which is very not in vogue with what I see on social media and how my friends raise their kids. And you did that because >> I'm not a helicopter parent. I'm not so intensive. I'm not up in the business for on every little thing, right? Like, and I and I think what I what I've raised now are two boys, which is important because they're boys, who will say to me, "Mom, I have swimming today, tomorrow. Can you grab my swimsuit?" Or, "Mom, I need $20 because it's the book fair." Like, they are on top of their lives and what they need, right? I'm going to push back. I would like to push back a little bit on this because I do think in in this generation, this generation I I think that can be your story, but I also see a lot of stories where it was in almost similar situation with immigrants who came over >> and it's the opposite. It was high achievement. It was you better be the best. You better be a doctor, a lawyer or a this or that. I don't care about your wellbeing. I don't care about your mental health. they were trusting.

[00:15:52]>> My thing is what I think the difference is between the generational styles of this is my opinion is I think that >> those generations wanted a child that a behaved no matter what in outwardly they behaved they were well behaved they were quiet they did well in school that was the goal the goal was not later on in life and then later on in life those kids would be successful and they'd be three things successfully right doctor lawyer I'm missing one sure engineer okay and then I think the only difference is is with our generation, we are not so focused on an outward behavior of how a child appears to the world. We're focusing on their inner mental health, their inner true resiliency that will lead to actually good behavior, but their own mental health. We're not detrimenting their mental health for how they should be outward facing. Same with when they grow up, then they're also not fitting into a box. Let's Lenor talk a little bit about this from the boomer perspective. Uh because your parents then would have been like the greatest generation or did they did they have an internal or did they speak to your internal emotional states at all?

[00:17:04]>> Never in those words, but I feel like I was raised by two loving parents and the thing that I got most from them and it sounds like you got from your parents too and probably you did too because here you are is a lot of trust. Um, a lot of trust that I could handle things, a lot of trust that I would do well enough in school, that I would have friends, that if I was taking free time and just drawing in my room or I spent a lot of time looking for four-leaf clovers, that this wasn't going to make, you know, make me a a disaster as a grown-up. And so, it was trust in me, trust in the neighborhood, trust in their parenting. And it wasn't >> it wasn't questioning whether every interaction was uh emotionally correct or not. It was just sort of I mean when you were going to ask you never asked me what's the what's the purpose of parenting I'm like to raise kids that that's what they were doing and it wasn't that they didn't care who we were or how we such an interesting conversation because I also think just personally right >> I have to be really centered. I have to wake up every morning and feel like, you know, I have the time quite frankly to be emotionally centered and present and focused in order to even be able to ask that of my child. Do you see what I'm saying? Absolutely.

[00:18:21]>> And so I that's what we weren't asking.

[00:18:24]Nobody was saying, "Am I centered today?

[00:18:26]Can I deal with my child? What am I going to say to them? How are they going to react? How is this going to impact their mental health?" It was like, "Here's breakfast, >> right?" And you're just trying to make it through the day. And I think the point though is like I also think that like and I do think like it is important for us. I mean like I've been trying to do this exercise just personally like to my body. How does my body feel today?

[00:18:47]How am I feeling today? Because I know when I get centered I'm going to get out of bed and even if like no one's brushing their teeth or putting on their clothes or like giving me a hard time, right? I'm going to show up the way that I want to show up. But that means I have to have the time, right? And that's why I think it's so important.

[00:19:03]>> Did you feel that? I'm I'm curious if you just to close out this section then we're going to move on to a new topic but >> did you feel that way as a boomer parent that you know first and foremost it was even older than I am but go on baby boomer who is a parent like that when you woke up the first thing you had to do was kind of do like an internal check system on you >> that's also me I'm >> well this is what I'm saying is that the the generational shifts >> might be you know might be substantially different.

[00:19:35]>> I think you're I think you're right in that I feel like basically you wake up and you deal with your kids. But also I loved having we had a nanny and so however I was feeling that day I left for work and somebody else um looked after them and then when I came home we related but I also thought that if they weren't with me that was okay. If they spent time on the way home and went and you know played at the park that was okay. It was basically >> a easier I I want to say though, I think um I love your experience as a as a boomer parent and I think that and I'm I'm not I'm not taking that away from you, but I I do I will say I mean my parents were boomers and a lot of people that I that are now parenting we are parenting reacting to the boomer generation >> who of course were also reacting >> to their parents who were seen as emotionally unavailable but >> and now we're trying to do things the opposite >> in in in many of The parents that I am seeing what they what they experienced having boomer parents was pressure pressure to be the best, pressure to be quiet, pressure to behave, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure. So, it feels a little different than my childhood was not the nanny is going to pick you up and then maybe you go to the park. Mine was you're going here and then you're going to the math tutor, then you're going to softball cuz you're going to get a full ride for softball for college. You better get that full ride or else. And it was pressure pressure. And if I may, just to round out this section, my experience as a a boomer child was in keeping with some of what you were talking about when I went out, you know, if I was out with my parents, I should not embarrass them.

[00:21:13]>> I should present myself and like follow certain things, but it was not necessarily that turn, and this is also partly class-based. They were not like, "And you have to be an astronaut or a doctor or a lawyer." It was like you just have to be independent.

[00:21:27]>> A debate show. Yeah, that was their goal and sadly they didn't get sued. Okay, we're going to close that out and we're going to go to a new se uh new segment.

[00:21:37]If the goals of parenting are our are our ideals, things can get messy once we're actually in the room with real life kids. You know, this is kind of the parenting equivalent of Mike Tyson saying everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face, right? And the kid's diaper explodes. whatever all all your theories are you know beside the point. So let's get into some of the strategies or philosophies of parenting and I want to start with one of the most prevalent in parenting today or parenting discourse. This is uh what is often called gentle parenting. The phrase is attributed to a British author herself, a parent of four, Sarah Aqual Smith, and she describes it to put it really, really simply as treating kids with the same empathy and respect we give other adults. This idea has taken root in parenting, but it's also been very divisive. People disagree about how to apply these ideas in practice and whether this philosophy can achieve the results it promises. Uh, but I think we can all agree that it's in the ether.

[00:22:40]So, let's talk about it a little bit.

[00:22:42]Uh, Rashba, yes.

[00:22:44]>> When you hear the phrase gentle parenting, what does it mean to you and has it influenced you as a parent?

[00:22:51]>> Yeah, I mean, listen, I I mean, Chris is the expert on this, so I mean, I'm I'm going to let her speak to that, but I I think from my perspective, it's like I feel like when I hear the term, it assumes that you have bandwidth. It assumes that you kind of have the support. And we already talked about again in this world where we we don't have child care, we don't have paid leave, you know, we don't actually provide, you know, we're the wealthiest nation that puts the least amount of money into childare.

[00:23:18]>> Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Wait, but like my point but to to keep going on this.

[00:23:25]So So look, as I said before, like my parents were refugees. I was not gentle parented. I was disciplined the oldfashioned way. My my parents were just trying to put food on the table and pay the bills and like just survive, right?

[00:23:38]>> In a traditional way, what does that mean? Does that mean physical? Does that mean more like timeouts alone? What I mean, if you're comfortable sharing like what >> Okay, you want me you want me to troll my parents like you. I mean, I was trying to like you, right? I mean, I think you Yeah, I think I I think we were I think we were we were disciplined, you know, and what whatever that mean. We know what that means. I should say >> harshly disciplined. Sure.

[00:23:59]>> Um but that's what that's what people did back then. people spanked. You know what I'm saying? I was terrified of my like my my meaning when my father said be home at 10:00. I was home at 10:00, right? Like >> I was home at 10:00 not because anybody was disciplining me, just cuz I was a good kid.

[00:24:14]>> Yeah. I mean, but that's what I'm saying. Like I think it was a from my I was a good kid too and I was scared as hell with my dad.

[00:24:21]>> Um you're still stupid, >> right? But >> I just don't feel like it's >> so gentle gentle parenting is is not something that like the you were not treated as a a miniature adult by your parents. Do you treat your kids?

[00:24:36]I find this conversation so interesting because I think you assume >> and going back to class that people who are barely trying to get by and the vast majority of people in America don't have the economic luxury of actually thinking about these things. They're just trying to get by.

[00:24:57]And I think my parents were in that position. I think most families that I speak to are in that position. And so for me, having more resources, having more support, and looking at this as someone who's kind of again leading a movement of moms, I think it's so hard to have like these conversations about what your parenting style should be when we are living in a country that doesn't have structure and we are living in a culture that shames moms, right? Which we haven't gotten to, right? Like right now the prominent conversation when I open up Instagram is, are you a trad wife or a girl boss? Right? Are you gonna, you know, like a milk a cow, you know, or are you going to hustle so hard that you don't see your kids? In some ways, that's like an indication of how we tell people to parent. Work, work, work, work, work, right? And spend the least amount of time with your child.

[00:25:45]So, to me, I want to get to a place in my own parenting, which is goes back to like the body checks, right? In the meditation is like, how do I get to a place where I'm centered, where I can show up to be the parent that I want?

[00:25:57]>> Yeah. What about I mean a lot you know you are kind of presuming and I I you know my kids have all you know been to daycare and >> um but that itself is not necessarily a choice that every mother wants to make a lot of women want to stay home with their kids% and some fathers >> I said freedom and choice when I said in the beginning I I think we have to create a society that allows people to do I told you I was in an event last night with a bunch of childcare providers who all provide daycare night daycare you also forget that there are so many parents who are shift workers or who are in families that are are by shift workers meaning the mother works from 9 to5 and the father works from 5 to 12 they don't see each other right and so we have to I think create a parenting style that that works for a lot of people and we also have to not shame people for the things that they have to do to simply just survive and get by >> maybe it's not a parenting style maybe it's just trusting parents that they're doing the best they can probably be okay >> so Kristen um What do you what do you think about um you've said uh recently on your podcast that you hate the phrase gentle parenting, but the way that you talk about it >> seems very much in the in the universe of gentle parenting, right? You are not just telling your kids because I said so or you're like don't Yeah, I don't want to hear it. Just go to your room.

[00:27:17]>> I'm not spanking them. So um talk about how how do you what what are you aligned with in terms of gentle parenting and then what is like okay I don't I don't get this.

[00:27:28]>> I mean listen I think this is probably one of the biggest discussions of right now of our generation right now of parenting. Gentle parenting um isn't technically in in research a term. So there's no way for anybody out there to say that gentle parenting is the best way to parent or based on outcomes because gentle parenting is a madeup term. People are taking gentle parenting in many different ways. Many different ways. So, according to research, and I'll make this as brief as I can, there are three core ways of parenting.

[00:27:57]There's authoritative parenting. That's probably what the boomers did. That's low warmth. That's high control.

[00:28:04]>> This is high spanking >> in general. In general, and it's also right now, right? It's also 50% of the country emphasis on punishment, strict rules, do what I say. You know what I'm saying? That's authoritative. Okay.

[00:28:18]Permissive is next. This is where many people think that is what gentle parenting is. People think that's what free.

[00:28:25]>> Anyone who has written a book or is is doing a parenting account or is a therapist. They are not talking about permissive parenting. That is not what gentle parenting is. Permissive parenting is high warmth, low boundaries. Kids are doing whatever they want. Kids are running the show. Parents are loving. They're emotional. They're tuned, but there's absolutely no structure. There's no boundaries. It's chaos. The outcomes of that, by the way, the children low frustration to tolerance, more impulsivity, more behavioral problems, poor self-esteem.

[00:28:55]And that's where the whole debate online when you see the boomers and the people coming in being like gentle parenting is raising snowflakes. No, permissive parenting absolutely is without a doubt.

[00:29:08]And the third strategy, >> authoritative parenting, which is what any therapist or any credentialed person on the internet or any of these books are saying, authoritative, high empathy, high boundaries and structure. So, we are not letting our kids get away with the show. We are the leader of this While your child is upset about your boundary, your rule, your thing, you say to them, "It's okay to be sad.

[00:29:32]It's okay." You're emotionally connected to them. And that is where we see the best outcomes based on decades of actual research. This shouldn't actually necessarily be a debate anymore cuz there's so much research that shows they come out emotionally attuned. They come out more resilient. They have lower anxiety and depression, a better child parent relationship. And and to your point, >> research also shows you only have to get that right 30 to 50% of the time.

[00:30:02]>> Oh, I like that. I wish. Can we take that a couple percentage points lower?

[00:30:08]>> It makes it seem like you've got to do it this exact way and exactly perfectly and around the clock and with somebody who stays home all the time. No, have a nanny, have daycare, go to your job, go out to dinner, fill your own self up first. I hope you have more structure.

[00:30:23]That's a huge part of it. But if you are showing up 30 to 50% of the time that you're with your children as a whole, in that way, you're going to have those positive outcomes. Can you do a little demonstration of what? Like I'm the child. I want to know like what I like what would it be?

[00:30:37]>> I'd love to.

[00:30:38]>> Thanks.

[00:30:38]>> Go ahead.

[00:30:38]>> Go for it. Well, I'm a child. So, what did I do? What are you doing?

[00:30:42]>> Uh, what do I DO?

[00:30:44]>> OW. HEY, she's hitting right. Okay. You didn't clean up. I don't want to clean my room.

[00:30:50]>> Yeah.

[00:30:50]>> I hear you don't want to clean your room right now. Okay. Is it because you're tired from being How old are you?

[00:30:56]>> I'm six. I don't want to clean my room.

[00:30:58]I like it messy.

[00:31:01]Go away.

[00:31:02]>> Go away. I hear you. I hear you. I will give you some space because I'm hearing you need some space after we clean up your room. Here's what we're going to do. I know you like the game, I don't know, freeze dance or whatever it is.

[00:31:14]We're going to go put on the thing and if you get five blue stuffies or five blue things in your room into this bin, you get a point. But if I get five red stuffies into this bin, I get a point.

[00:31:25]Now, this is a little more extreme. You got to have a lot more energy to do something like this. you don't want to do this. What I would just say is I hear you. I know it's hard. It's time to go clean up your room right now.

[00:31:35]>> Okay.

[00:31:36]>> Okay. Lenor, comment on this time from a a kind of free range. Explain >> quickly what free range parenting is.

[00:31:45]And then how does that intersect with what we're talking about?

[00:31:48]>> Parenting has a lot of trust. It has a lot of trust that the kids are going to be okay. That it's not all up to you.

[00:31:52]That they have a lot of uh genes, experiences, other friends, teachers, so many influences on them. So that every little exchange between you and your child does not make that big a difference. Right? It's not going to emotionally shape them or them even if you said the wrong thing. And I love your 30 to 50% has to be right. But I even think like 30 50% it's like I said four stuffies. If id said three stuffies then she would have had more time and it would have been a better relationship. So even thinking in percentages makes me so nervous. And so freerange parenting trusts that things are going to be pretty good. And especially if you trust them with a little bit of uh being able to roll with some punches, being able to roll with you being curt sometimes and with you being >> what do you do with that? You know, the the room is not clean.

[00:32:44]>> Now, this I cannot tell you. I really cannot tell you what to do with the broccoli eating, with the tantrums, all the stuff that you understand cleaning the rooms. All I can tell you is that when you have the time or even if you don't have the time, you're told to spend all this time with your kid knitting every signapse, making every rel every interaction emotionally uh significant and the correct amount of empathy with the correct amount of authoritiveness. And I say let grow says that you got to step back. And actually when parents step back, it allows kids to step up more. And we're told that everything is so important that you must be with them all the time. And if you're not with them, somebody else you have to, you know, outsource it to a teacher, a coach, and really please >> give yourself some grace that it's like it's it's not a project. It's it's a person you're in a relationship with.

[00:33:39]>> Yeah. And also to this is why I think there's such a like a almost like a conser like a >> a conspiracy against moms. Well, I was also going to say a but I but I think there's also this uh nostalgia for traditionalism >> because if you have to like show up or say the thing, right? And that is really on you. Again, let's go back as the mom cuz she's normally the one that's caregiving, >> then she can't really be working cuz that takes a lot of time. And I think that's again I'm saying that is why I think in society right now there is that nostalgia back to encouraging >> who is pushing that nostalgia because when you look you know the tread wife >> movement which is traditionalist I mean it's in the name >> it's not like it's a bunch of you know um mustache twirling you know patriarchs who are doing that like where is >> it's complicated because I I think part of this I think part like you said you know as we've talked like in the 70s there's a huge infusion of women in the workplace and I think that there was like again a culture movement about being a girl boss you know what I mean working really hard getting the corner office don't worry about your kids they're going to be fine you just go get your dreams and I think the backlash to that was the tradife and one of the things we have a film coming out No Country for Mothers in June it's just we've had these binaries since the beginning of time they're not new like Phyllis Schlafley is like the OG trad wife. So, but part of part of I think >> you've figured out a way to spend as little time as I think we all watch and I so I think what you're saying which I think is important is like trust the kids to kind of figure it out and be on their own.

[00:35:17]They don't actually need >> someone i.e. the mom right >> with them all the time with them all the time.

[00:35:23]>> Not only do they not need the mother with them all the time, it's really good if they're not with the mother all the time. And one of the things that LetGrow pushes for is not only more independence, going out and doing things in the real world, helping out, going to the grocery, but also free play >> so that they're so the room example. My first instinct, what I wanted to say was, >> is the room really important to you?

[00:35:48]Like, can I swear on this? Probably not, but like f the room if it's not important to you. When you say like, I have work. I have this. I'm supposed to keep up with my marriage. I'm supposed to keep up with this. I'm supposed to keep up with this. Is the room more important to you than the myriad of other things? Then here's what I would recommend you do. If it's not, because what you're saying is the room's gonna be messy.

[00:36:06]>> And that's cool for me. Like I would rather do that, but you're winning your battles.

[00:36:10]>> Okay, quick final point. One last thought is and I have to quote the great Peter Gray uh who was one of the uh Peter Gray was one of the co-founders with me of Let Grow and he's a professor at Boston College and he's spent his whole life studying the importance of different age kids playing together figuring things out and what I like most about him in in this discussion is that he said there's a lot of parenting books out there and parenting experts because parents write them >> but there's so many other influences on our kids and to pretend like every interaction and every decision ision we make will make or break the child is one of the things that's driving us crazy is one of the things that's making moms feel like oh my god I better wake up and be my best self and spend as much time as I can with the kid and really you got to trust that they are born to born to rise right >> can I ask here is a just a kind of exit question real quick on this one of the things that happens in starting with the baby boom not as parents but as kids after World War II and they're kind of the first fully formed adolescent generation where youth and being a kid as opposed to being a little adult, you know, comes into being. If you go back and look, you see a lot of anxiety and stories about how the kids are running the house. Have we Isn't that what we're still talking about is that like the real fear is that the kids are calling the shot in houses and that that somehow upsets the natural world talking about with permissive parenting.

[00:37:35]>> Permissive parenting. Yeah. where I think most people are getting it wrong, where they think that that's what gentle parenting is and it's all about feeling and you don't want it to be authoritarian where it's like, you know, you're being >> run by Bonito Mussolini, but you want authoritative where guys, you just want to happy. I mean, just make it make sense. Do you want your partner to to look at you and to sort of shame you and you had a bad day and you're crying hysterically and your partner looks at you and says, "Stop it. You're overreacting. Get in your room. I don't want to see your face. Just make it make sense. Like it doesn't take that much to be like, "Oh, that was hard."

[00:38:09]>> Very quickly, yes or no. Do we have more snowflakes now than we did when any of us were kids?

[00:38:17]>> What I've read is that as kids, independence and free play have been going down literally over the decades, their anxiety and depression have been going up.

[00:38:27]>> I would say personally for myself, I think not just children, but I would say adults too, I think we are lacking moral courage in our country. I don't think people actually know how to be brave. I think we're so used and need to feel good all the time that that when we feel bad, i.e. we have to stand up for what's right and that feels like rejection.

[00:38:45]>> What's a kid have to do to stand up for what's right? I mean, >> kids have to stand up all the time for what's right. What What do you mean by that?

[00:38:52]>> I just mean we're talking about like can they get through the day without falling apart? Yeah, but I think kids are listen there's a >> I mean are they less resilient because >> I think they are less resilient. But I mean we're talking about six year olds, but we're also talking about 13 14 year olds. My my point is is like you we're we you have I was I was taught at a very young age >> how to be brave which meant how to speak up for myself if somebody was harming me, how to like articulate what I need.

[00:39:19]Um and and a little bit of like what's right and wrong. The problem with that is that we no longer expect the kid to stand up for themselves, but they go to the adult in the room or they just suck it up.

[00:39:31]>> Well, I think where I, you know, I talk about this with girls. I think we socialize girls at a very young age to be perfect. And so when they're bad at gymnastics, >> I I don't doubt that, but doesn't it seem like we do that a lot less than we did when Lenor and I were in need?

[00:39:45]>> I actually feel like we do it more.

[00:39:47]>> Really?

[00:39:48]>> I don't know. Maybe that's >> shaming. No, I think that >> was expecting girls to be quiet and >> submissive. Nick, we didn't have we didn't have Instagram back then. You know, when when the founders of Instagram and Facebook designed the like button, they based it off of a focus group of girls because they knew that girls were taught at a very young age to care about what other people thought.

[00:40:08]And if they put a button on there, >> if they put a button on there that would be like, I like that outfit.

[00:40:15]And so, yes, >> I would love to. I have a little bit of a hot take, but this is probably the place for it. I'm just going to say that the people who are outraged that this generation >> is snowflakes are snowflakes themselves.

[00:40:28]>> True.

[00:40:28]>> I think that they are men, sometimes women, who cannot handle when life throws hard things at them. I think they erupt at the barista when there is a wrong coffee order. I think they are the ones flipping people off in traffic.

[00:40:43]I think maybe there's some people in office. I think that those people were raised in really harsh environments where they actually cannot handle hard moments. They actually crumble. They're the ones who are spanking their children. They're the ones who are out of control. They're yelling at their wife and they can't handle the smallest setback or emotion. I think that when you have permissive kids, sure, maybe they're looking at those kids and being like, "Those kids are out of control."

[00:41:09]But the research shows time and time and time again, if you have high empathy, but boundaries, boundaries are the most important thing. If you have really firm boundaries with your kid, your kid's going to have firm boundaries out there in that world. So, they're going to go out in the world and say, "No, that doesn't work."

[00:41:24]>> Have you raised all these snowflake men who are erupting at baristas?

[00:41:28]>> All they do is erupt at baristas. It's so strange that they go into Starbucks specifically to erupt.

[00:41:35]>> That's their goal. I don't know how to put in a good word for free. Let's >> free play. I'm with you on the free play all the way. replay because if kids have time when they have to figure out what to do, who they're going to play with.

[00:41:47]Nobody wants to play with the jerk. The jerk ends up not erupting boundaries.

[00:41:51]>> Right. Right. Standing up, but it's not us setting boundaries all the time. A lot of the times it is self-correcting.

[00:41:57]And we've really taken sort of the natural life out of kids lives and and replaced it with us doing exactly the right thing, being authoritarian but not authoritative. And it's so hard. We're going to go into a lightning round now.

[00:42:11]Um, I'm going to ask you a question and I want a quick yes or no answer so we know where you all fall. Participation trophies. Are these a bad thing or you know I look at I have only had participation trophies in my life. Um, but you know this is something people talk about everybody wins. Everybody is that bad?

[00:42:32]>> I think failure is great for me. The point is there's a trophy that means there's an adult watching and I like free play without adults there.

[00:42:41]>> Failure is a good lesson.

[00:42:43]>> Uh kid leashes. This was a big this was a big baby boomer thing. Uh Lenor, start with that.

[00:42:49]>> Have those kids look back in the early 50s. There are a lot of kids on leashes.

[00:42:54]>> You know, they're not going to be on a leash when they're 18. I wouldn't worry about it.

[00:42:57]>> Okay. I >> We're all agreed, right? Uh sleep training. Is sleep training >> essential or is it, >> you know, a lunatic fantasy of control?

[00:43:08]>> That's actually when I read a book.

[00:43:09]>> I'm not answering that if this is going on the internet.

[00:43:12]>> That's what I'll say.

[00:43:12]>> I'm not sure what that means.

[00:43:14]>> Sleep is the craziest thing that you'll see on the internet.

[00:43:16]>> It's really hard. And I I did read I think I read Ferber. I think we ferized our kid where she cried out and then they learn it's easier to stay asleep than to >> but I didn't know what to do. There are experts who that's why I'm not the expert.

[00:43:29]>> Okay. uh circumcision, male circumcision. Let's let's be clear.

[00:43:34]>> Personal choice >> for Jews.

[00:43:36]>> I mean, we do it too. Hindus. Sure.

[00:43:40]>> Okay.

[00:43:41]>> But again, it's your choice, right?

[00:43:43]>> A strange question, Nick.

[00:43:45]>> Why? Why? This people might have a really >> one of the biggest uh you know uh uh it's another culture war. Sorry, I didn't even know. No, I mean starting sometime around the 30s or 40s, the vast majority of boys born in America were circumcised at birth, regardless of religion, usually at the hospital or in the doctor's office shortly after.

[00:44:04]That's now approaching something like only 50%. So, it's an interesting if your if your culture or religion dictates it, there you go.

[00:44:14]>> Yeah. Um, are kids worse off today than 30 years ago?

[00:44:19]>> I mean, what was 30 years ago?

[00:44:20]>> Are they worse off than now? like so in the '9s.

[00:44:22]>> Yes. Because of I believe because of social media and screens, anxiety and depression skyrocketing. Yes.

[00:44:28]>> And I saw it going up before the screens and before social media. And I'd say yes. And it's because of less independence, less responsibility, less free play.

[00:44:36]>> And I mean like if I had a daughter, I would say yes because she would have less rights than I had when I was born.

[00:44:42]>> How how does that >> We've lost her reproductive rights.

[00:44:45]>> So she has less rights.

[00:44:47]>> Um she's more likely to graduate from college. She's more likely to graduate from the STEM course. She's more likely to graduate from law school.

[00:44:54]>> Actually, let me let me go back here.

[00:44:56]So, I absolutely So, our reproductive rights have been taken away. Congress is trying to pass the SAVE Act, which means if you change your name, it's harder for you to actually vote. They're trying to make birth control illegal. In 13 states, STEM uh after school programs that are designated for girls are quite frankly being outlawed. And you have a whole bunch of people in culture right now that think girls shouldn't be engineers. So, I disagree.

[00:45:18]>> Yes or no? Are kids overscheduled?

[00:45:20]>> Yes.

[00:45:22]>> Duh. Yes.

[00:45:23]>> Okay. All right. Thank you very much.

[00:45:25]That's it for the flash round. This has been a lot of fun. Uh let's move on to another big shift. How and where kids spend their times. Here's a few quick numbers. Parents spend a lot more time with their kids than they used to. In 2018, mothers spent nearly 5 hours a week in the presence of their children.

[00:45:42]And that compares to 1 hour 45 minutes in 1975. 60% of kids at age 11 have a smartphone. In fact, the Surgeon General's office just issued a warning about the health impacts of scrolling and excessive screen time for kids and teens. That's highly contested, I will say. Uh and according to a recent study from the Institute for Family Studies, they found that 60% of 17y olds of 17y olds are not permitted to roam further than their neighborhood unsupervised.

[00:46:16]60% of 17 year olds.

[00:46:19]>> Many of us remember childhoods where we roamed alone or with friends. And by 17, which is the driving age, the maximum driving age in all states. Uh many have are at 16. Uh you know, we're driving to nearby towns. We didn't have phones. Our parents didn't know where we were for hours on end. So coming back to this question, >> should kids be freer to roam than they are now? And part of this is a a response to a structural change, which is as both parents are working more often, kids are in more institutional settings.

[00:46:55]>> And there's so many schools that won't let the kid get off the school bus once again at 3:30 in the afternoon. It's like, so just quit your job and go wait at the school bus because they're not going to let them walk four blocks or sometimes four houses home. I heard from a mom who whose kid drop gets dropped off at the end of the driveway and the mom has to come out and say, "I'm here.

[00:47:15]>> I'm here." Because the assumption is that anytime a child is unsupervised, they are automatically in danger. And the statistic I love from that Institute for Family Studies uh survey of 25,000 American parents that just came out is that the majority of 14y olds are not allowed off their block. M >> so you talk about a structure that's going to keep women down and keep parents crazy. It's when the assumption is that you must be some adult must always be with a kid and unfortunately >> and can I just ask real quickly it's not like it would be better if let's say we change gender roles so that it's the father stay waving at the end of the driveway. You're >> now I'm talking about for the kid. Yeah, right. For the kid it is better to have some independence time. Um there's there's a professor now studying independence is actually therapy for kids with a diagnosis of anxiety. And the way he describes it is like you know if you're scared of dogs there's exposure therapy. You first you look at a picture of a dog and then you're across the street from a dog and then you pet the dog and then you realize oh my god this is this is a really cute and wonderful thing. Now you want a dog.

[00:48:27]Yeah. Well, right now we've kept kids away from real life because they're always having an adult there who will say say, you know, say something nice or I'll pay for this or don't do that and and so kids are afraid of life and what they need is exposure back to it and that's exposure without us there.

[00:48:44]>> Do you just wait just real quickly um when you were growing up do you feel like you had that ability of course >> to roam?

[00:48:52]>> Of course I had that ability to roam.

[00:48:54]Let me just tell you one other statistic which I wanted to contrast with 14-year-olds are not off allowed off their block, right?

[00:48:59]>> But there was a book maybe you seen me quote it um called your six-year-old loving and defiant and it just has a checklist of what normal six-year-olds were doing back in 1981 and it was can you tell your right foot from your left foot? Can you you know uh I don't know have you lost a baby tooth? And one of the things was does your child go four to eight blocks in any direction to school, to the store, to a friend's house. So, a six-year-old was going eight blocks and now a 14-year-old is not allowed off their block.

[00:49:27]>> And we might add, and I'm going to come to you in a second, and we might add that if you look at any possible negative outcome to a child in terms of crime, abduction, you know, just accidents, etc. In 1981, it was infinitely higher than it is now. So older kids in a safer America are more leashed to their backyard if even if if they're even allowed out in their yard.

[00:49:52]>> Can I can I want to because Nick you said something and I want to make sure you're not saying because often you said this has been happening since both people have entered the workforce. So I just want to make sure that we're not saying that the reason why people are less likely to roam is because more women are working. No, what I'm saying is that if both parents are working, then where do the kids go?

[00:50:14]>> Well, I I don't know.

[00:50:15]>> Like if they're in daycare, >> which is, you know, but they're daycare and school and then after school, >> if they're at school, they're holding. I don't think that that's necessarily what's happening because I think that it's often times because because remember like there's a lot of women or men who are quite frankly not working full-time. So, is this really about the fact that they're in institutional places as you call them? Because a lot of kids are quite frankly in home care, so they're in neighborhoods. So, they're not all in institutionalized daycare. I think a lot has happened is because we have a tremendous amount of fear and distrust because when I again open my social media feed, which is where most people get their information, someone is being molested, someone is being abducted, someone is being killed. And the thing that we didn't talk about like look I was a latch kick kid and it wasn't because my mother did all this research and independent research about how it's because she couldn't afford. So like but there was trust there was trust that my sister could walk six blocks pick me up we would walk home and nobody would abduct us. That that trust does not exist. Secondly we're not talking about the experience of race and it is very important to talk about the experience of both race and class. you know, for our film, we interviewed this this mother, Nadia, who lived in a predominantly white neighborhood. And one of the parents called her and she said, "Oh, the boys are going to walk home to the party." And Nadia said, "No, no, no. And you might feel comfortable because your son is white, but my son is black and if he's walking nine blocks in this predominantly white neighborhood, the chances of something happening to him are much higher." And so I want to know you know that 60% of 17 year olds are is that reaction to a very understandable fear by parents and mothers that my kid that something could happen to my children. People don't have trust. People do not have trust.

[00:52:05]>> So where does I mean this is a question of then where does that come from?

[00:52:09]because and Lenor a lot of your work has documented the fact that most of the risks to children and from people you know there's >> no I mean but you know and and again you have to you know look at this you know through a gender lens through a class lens through a race lens but in each of those circumstances people are much more fearful this was something I wrote about in the '9s all the time as children were no there was no risk of being abducted by a stranger.

[00:52:40]People in the '9s went bananas and by the end of the '9s we were like, "Oh, we you know, kids need to have, you know, chips put in them so that we can track them." So, let me just remember the milk of the milk carton.

[00:52:53]>> Well, this is where where does that fear come from?

[00:52:56]>> That's perception, not reality. I think that fear I'm sorry but I think a lot of that is culturally based because we do there is a a large segment of the population that believes that a woman's place is at home and so if mothers were at home the kids would be good and so you have to actually put that fear out there that like that there are these like creepy weepies right that are going to be out there like doing something to your children but the only way that the only way to be a good mom is to stay no I think the the the way to be a good parent is to say is to call BS on the idea that the only thing that out you know it's it's just like child molesters everywhere >> but that's not what I agree with you but the p but the message that we're signaling to in particular women and men right is that to be a good mother means that you're at home >> I also think >> or to be a good parent that your kids are accounted for that there's a we have a panopticon childhood now where you have to be accountable every minute of every day.

[00:54:01]>> And it's not just it's not just circumstance. sorry that helicopter parenting has arisen at the same time that fear is enhanced, you know, at this because it is a sense that you just got to constantly be circling your child or something bad is going to happen to them and the worst thing >> and and and I'm sorry to uh I I want to hear from you in a second, but also the flip side of helicopter parenting, I think, as a phenomenon was less about protecting your kids from child molesters and it was making sure that they had every opportunity so they would go to Yale rather than Yukon, right?

[00:54:32]They would go to Harvard rather than mass University of Massachusetts and it's like you got to be in there and you got to be in the enrichment programs and we don't talk about after school pro you know in the same way they're enrichment programs and you are in a competitive you're doing competitive debate you're doing sports leagues year round always to notch up and that pipe is not something that is coming from you know lower even middle classes it's it's an elite that is trying to maintain its edge um >> wait it's not just the elite Yeah, >> I just want to say that there was this giant study that Cornell Cornell, an Ivy League school did, >> a land grant college actually.

[00:55:08]>> There you go. Right. Labor school. Um, uh, did six years ago and it found that literally across the economic spectrum, all parents thought that the more activities you could put your kid in, the better off they were going to be. So whether you could afford them or not, whether they were free from the school or not, everybody wanted their kids to be more supervised. And it's not just the fear of abduction, it's the fear of your kid falling behind. And then there's this spiral. Well, if everybody's getting SAT prep and my kid doesn't, then my kid is 200 points lower.

[00:55:37]>> This is an excellent point. And so, you can't roam if you're constantly in activity after activity after activity.

[00:55:42]>> Which is why says keep learning.

[00:55:44]>> Let me let me let's end this segment and go on to the next one. But, uh, Kristen, uh, yeah, quick point.

[00:55:50]>> Okay. Just as the millennial who's literally living this and seeing this, I I think it is 100% >> Your kids are too young for the full heart.

[00:55:57]>> Well, mine's nine. I mean, she's nine.

[00:55:58]She's in all star. She's incompetitive everything in seven whatever. Um, but I think almost 100% of this comes from social media. All we see on social media, I just saw it the other day, really sad story about the FedEx worker who abducted the three-year-old child >> back in 1980. You wouldn't have heard of that. You wouldn't have heard of somebody across the country and this wouldn't have been the major, but you would have heard you would have heard about you would have had the perspective. would have heard about a busload of children being kidnapped and buried underground in California or you would have heard about Eton Pat.

[00:56:33]You would hear about it on the news for your what 30 minute nightly newsshour.

[00:56:38]What you're not doing is consuming a fear scroll 24 hours a day. You're waiting in an elevator when you click on it once. But when the statistics are what our statistics show is that is that sexual abuse happens 90% of the time amongst people who know your child. So these are not abductors in a white candy van. These are people who know your child. These are people. It's a complete the fear of letting them go down the street. I'm going to provide one PSA um that's really helpful for parents because 90% of the terrible things that happen to kids are at the hands of people they know. Teach them the three Rs rather than stranger danger. The three Rs are recognize nobody can touch you. Wear your bathing suit covers. Two is resist. Run, kick, scream, and three is report. You can tell me anything that happened. Even if they said keep it a secret, I won't be mad at you. Those three things are going to keep your kids a lot safer than never letting them >> outside. All right, let's go to a new uh section. A lot of chatter has been made about how kids interact with screens and the internet and that's important and we're going to touch on that. But I also want to start with how social media and the internet has impacted parents. And we know part of this is the anxiety of reading. Oh my god, like FedEx. Okay, I'm going to use UPS. I can't use UPS.

[00:57:57]Postal workers, they're the worst of the bunch, right? Yeah. So um uh parents now have access to influencers on places like Reddit and elsewhere. V virality goes nuts. Lenor knows this. Imagine how much more viral you would have been now as the world's worst mom.

[00:58:16]>> Is this kind of social media helping to improve parenting and have more online connection with parents? Uh there's a lot of people who post perfectionist idilic visions of motherhood, of fatherhood, of parenthood, but there's also people who try to post authentic parenting content and there's a lot of advice on how to get your kids to eat broccoli. Lenor, in your experience, has social media made knowing how to parent?

[00:58:44]>> You can't know how to parent. You can't know how to parent. I mean, it's not a thing. It's it's not an extracurricular.

[00:58:50]It's this relationship. So, the idea of reading like the exact script you're supposed to say when your kid is melting down or their cookie broke or something like that is just it's a lot to expect parents to um comport with and also to remember. I mean, how are you supposed to remember all this stuff exactly what you're supposed to say, >> but you don't find any useful content there.

[00:59:10]>> I'm sure, you know, I'm not reading it because my kids, as we've discussed, they're they're either eating their broccoli or not at this point. They're in the, you know, late >> blissfully. You're kind of unaware of that. blissful unawareness is good, but also um I just feel like there's a lot of emphasis on parenting period. And what I'd love us to do is realize like it's not all up to us. Take a chill pill. It's going to be okay.

[00:59:32]>> No, I can I just I have a Well, I have a hot I have a hot sort of take back to that. I actually have to push back just a little bit because I love what you're saying and I actually agree fully >> and >> and you're pushing back >> for someone like you who was parented the way you were parented and now parent the way you parent it's very easy to say just whatever comes to you this is how you parent and you trust for people who grew up in abusive households who people grew up in dark households who people grew up in being parented in ways that they do not want to parent their children if they were to say I'm just going to sit back and there's no one way to parent and I'm not going to learn how to parent at all. Those people are going to completely pass down all of the generational habits that they are unintentionally trying not to. They're going to feel strong urges to hit their kids if they were hit. They're going to feel strong urges to do all the things their parents didn't. Now, what I think is different is we don't need to be obsessive. We don't need to be on social media 100% of the time. We don't need to get this right 100% of the time. But I do have to push back on the whole like me kind of put your hands off and do what comes to you. That's what my parents did. I did not turn out.

[01:00:37]>> I I'll come back to you in a second.

[01:00:39]Kristen, Big Little Feelings has four million followers on Instagram. Are the people who are coming there are they coming mostly from dysfunctional families or you know why why do people look to you for advice?

[01:00:53]>> I think some are I think that most people um not just in our generation but also previous generations and previous generations, they do want to evolve.

[01:01:03]They do want to parent a little bit differently than their parents do. So, we do have many that came from a traumatic background and they need to truly rewire how they instinctually parent like we were just talking about.

[01:01:16]They would they would erupt. They would do things that do not in line with how they want to parent. But we also just have people who are raised in ways that we were raised like, "Hey, stop crying, get in the corner, be not seen, not heard." And they just want to do things a little differently with their kids, >> right? I mean this is part of we put down social media but you know we have I I brought three books that represent three generations you know Dr. Spock which was the you know the bestselling book for the baby boom and beyond >> what to expect when you're expecting this was the the Bible that I used with my kids and now with my youngest son Emily Auster you know but people are always looking for expert advice.

[01:01:59]Tell me how does how does you know how do you find good advice or bad advice online? How do you sift through who's the right expert?

[01:02:08]>> Yeah, I mean look I I think going back to your point about like is all social media bad? And I would say you're right.

[01:02:14]It's not. I mean one of the things I think that was really powerful about the pandemic is that it opened up everyone's living rooms, right? And you realize that oh it's not just me. I'm not a bad parent or a bad mom. We're all trying to struggle and balance even in the >> and and a lot of recognized experts were talking out of both sides of their mouth and put it kindly.

[01:02:35]>> Yeah. And and so that to that point too like you know for for our work obviously I do a lot of work on child care but just allowing people to be like wait I'm spending 10,000 I'm spending four like you realize the outrage and I think that that instills like community. I mean I think that what you're saying is really important. Listen I'm a nerd. I always want to get better at what I do. I want to get better at tennis. You know what I mean? I want to get better, be a better swimmer. I want to be a better parent. I think we all do. I mean, what a gift to be a mother. It's like the best title I could ever imagine to have. And so, I think the question is like how do you create the conditions such that everyone has the opportunity to do that. I also think that social media one one problem with it cuz I completely agree with that and I think if we were really in charge of our own social media instead of sort of just fed it that's what we would see we would follow the things only that we're interested in and not follow the problem that I see in modern motherhood especially towards women on social media is what we are being fed first of all is the most when I say grotesque I mean the most viral content is being shown to you what's that it's divisive it's something that makes you go stop this or you're going to ruin your kid today. And that's what's being shown to you. The more explosive, the more divisive it is, the more it's going to make you feel terrible. That's what you're being shown. Then on the other side, you're also seeing 20 different kinds of women.

[01:03:58]You're seeing a woman who is perfectly organizing her house over here, but then somebody is baking a sourdough over here. Somebody is a fitness mom over here. Somebody is really into emotional health over here. Somebody is really into cooking over here. So we as women think I need to do all of these things but these are one person one person one person one person one person so it's up to us to say I am not a sourdough baker I am not a fitness model what I am I'm into so emotional regulation and I'm into like not organization but I'll watch it you know that's the pressure that I see as the problem I think that's such an important point the problem is is like we don't get to choose because the way that the algorithms are >> What do you mean you don't get to choose Because if you can block people on I mean this is you actually cannot we need to as social media people we need to become much here's the problem you got to turn it off because the thing is is at the end of the day we are humans and sometimes I'm curious and I see a panda bear kissing a frog and I click on it cuz it's interesting you're signing up for all day long is like it takes an enormous amount of discipline right >> well no but this is But this is the promise in the same way of like you can you know there's you know a shelf full of books in the the the three or four bookstores left in America. They've got a giant parenting section and you have to pick and choose the book started out as 300 pages and then the next edition was like 400 and the next was 500 because they kept coming up with new problems for you to worry about.

[01:05:30]>> Well, it's also people writing in writing in and saying well what about this? What about this? But I will also say that these books are not designed to be addictive. And so that's what we always do say too. I don't need you to follow me. I don't need you to follow every single thing. What I would like you to do, especially if you were raised in a household that was traumatic, that is not the way you want to parent, pick one thing and then follow it and let the rest.

[01:05:50]>> But also, it's not not designed. This is not addictive. You're not going to follow >> to feel bad about we have to go back to why was the like button designed, right?

[01:05:58]It was designed because we knew that in particular women and girls will feel bad about themselves. But we don't always click on the things that teach us. We click on the things that judge us because that is it is innate and it has to be unlearned.

[01:06:12]>> As we wrap up, one final final question for all of you and we'll start with Rashma. What did your parents do that most screwed you up that you tried to avoid carrying into your own parents?

[01:06:24]>> Sorry.

[01:06:28]you know, my growing up in a like in South Asian Indian immigrant family, uh, we weren't very affectionate. So, one of the things that I do is like a side hug.

[01:06:42]>> You can do it. And I'm like, you know, so when people try to hug me, I do I just don't give. So, I I you know, I think I try to infuse a lot more touching, hugging, kissing with my children.

[01:06:51]>> Right. Thank you, Lenor. Um, the only thing I can think of off the bat is, and bat is the operative word, is that we didn't do any sports. You know, sports were back then they still weren't for girls. And so, um, I have two boys, but you know, one of them was really into sports.

[01:07:09]>> Chris, >> uh, >> yeah, you're now we got another hour.

[01:07:15]Um what most my parents did that most screwed me up I think um a were sort of extreme punitive um measures physical physical punishment. Um but at a core also trying to change me into being a normal good girl. I have ADHD. I was a daydreamer. I wasn't good in school. I wasn't as good at my sister. What's wrong with you? Those deeply stayed with me into my adulthood. Um, and I really I I think I had one person who believed in me. I needed more belief in me to be exactly who I am today, which is everything I was punished for as a child, as a girl. Pushing back, not following rules, breaking rules, being loud, being aggressive, I am now rewarded for as a CEO. And I wish that that that's probably what screwed me up most was to try to be a good girl, >> right? In a very >> in a narrow specific way. Okay.

[01:08:18]>> Thank you again, Kristen Lenor Rashma.

[01:08:21]>> It was a pleasure to have you join us today.

[01:08:26]>> That's it for this week. A big thank you to the audience for tuning in. This episode was made possible thanks to a generous gift from Liberty Ears Foundation. Our work is also made possible by listeners like you, the Rosen Crrance Foundation, and supporters of Open to Debate. Robert Rosen Crrance is our founder. Our CEO is Leam Matau.

[01:08:48]I'm Nick Gillespie. We'll see you next time on Open to Debate.