Zelenskyy broke the tacit Polish–Ukrainian truce on Volhynia | Robert Pszczel & Stuart Dowell

[00:00:00]Hello and welcome to World Talks here on TVP World. I'm your host, Benjamin Lee, and please join me and my guest on this next interview. Now, Poland has been one of Ukraine's strongest supporters since Russia's full-scale invasion. Yet, as Ukraine moves closer to European Union membership, the relationship has become increasingly strained. Historical memory, domestic politics, and strategic interests are now colliding in ways that could shape both bilateral relations and Ukraine's European future. Joining us today are Stuart Dovo, political editor at TVP World and Robert Abelle, a senior fellow at Center for Eastern Studies, former NATO official and diplomat. Now, both have closely followed Polish Ukrainian relations from different professional perspectives and offer different explanations for why the relationship has cooled and what it means for Ukraine's European future.

[00:00:46]Hello guys and welcome to CBP World.

[00:00:48]>> Thank you for the invitation. Now, uh, you guys both written and spoken extensively about why relation between Poland and Ukraine have become more strained. Stuart, your analysis suggests that as Ukraine move towards EU membership, it has to navigate the changing political reality in Poland.

[00:01:03]And Robert, you've argued that this puts too much emphasis on Polish politics and overlook decisions taken in Ke that are central to today's tension. So, let's start here. What do each of you think best explain where Polish and Ukrainian relationships stand today? Um maybe you start with you Robert.

[00:01:20]>> Okay. Uh once again thank you for the invitation because we we need to discuss it and and you know uh to give it context and and the facts and everything. So I I I think this is this is how it should be right. Um the issue at hand the way you phrased it. I think that u uh just to perhaps disappoint those who think I'm going to sort of you know have any kind of combative you know approach to stewards. I mean, I I I do agree with his analysis of, let's call it, domestic Polish politics and the unfortunate uh way in which, you know, some anti- Ukrainian sentiments are being played up. That that is I agree with that and I think that's that's that that's fair enough. My issue is this that that does not explain right uh why we are how you described in this situation this crisis because first of all in terms of the specific decision which kind of led to the spiral there is some history to this relations which we could get go into but it was a decision of president Zalinski which was done um this is to bestow you know uh the name of of which in Poland is considered you know organizational respons responsible for for essentially ethnic cleansing with elements of genocide for you know for the death of killing uh of 100,000 Poles um you know and and and other nationalities too. So it was done in a conscious manner. There's no question President Zilinski knew exactly you know he understood the sensitivities and I was explaining many many times and he did it frankly for domestic political reasons because you know that's that's the bit which to be precise I found it was it was not there maybe it was consumate it he was just you know uh Stuart wanted to concentrate something else but it is extremely important because it's you know we can discuss till cows come home you know various intricacies of the polish system and Nothing nothing is is kind of perfect and there's various you know criticism one could make but this issue is is driven by domestic politics e president Zilinski playing to let's call it what it is a nationalist gallery without any consideration of the polish sensitivities of the actual cost inevitable cost that would uh that Ukraine would incur you know and the second part is is also in the same vein uh this was this decision broke in a major way a kind of you know gentleman's agreement for lack of a better term which sort of existed for many years uh between Warso and Kiev that you know simplifying this you will not take decisions on a certainly national level with great sort of you know oomph uh which you know we will find impossible accept the party society will not accept them and we will not bring up this question which polls cannot simply forget and just you know say this is a minor thing it's just the past right and that deal was broken so that is uh the issue and it's it's important to to to to keep this in mind because if one does not introduce those factors then one does not understand the dynamics of this why the opinion polls in Poland have moved so drastically and and unfortunately to Ukrainian's detriment >> right so Stuart I would like to get you you to address that as well do you think that uh the the polls showing that the anti- Ukrainian sentiment on the rise is mostly a domestic issue. Is there is there um an aspect of it being played up or are there a certain attribution to the Ukrainian's part where that is taking place and perhaps becoming being exploited?

[00:05:01]>> Well, for sure Zalinsky had his domestic reasons uh for for doing that. um trying to trying to cover his uh the flank of the military uh security veteran and serving soldier constituency. And we've seen uh even this week with the political crisis uh in uh with the dismissal of Cerski and uh and the other events how how important Zalinski's relationship with the military and the whole environment is. But I think he really shot himself in the foot. And um of course he must have been aware the uh the impact and the level of emotion that there is in Poland uh about the whole issue surrounding uh the Volinia massacres. Um the uh the slow progress in excumations. Um I'm not sure he was aware of how far it would go. um he may not have predicted uh President Navrosky's uh escalation with the rescending of the order of the white eagle and he may he should have been aware he has people who advise him of the uh particular situation that Polish politics is in at the moment because the issue of elevating the status of uh uh former UPA fighters has been around in Ukrainian politics for a long time. Um, former Ukrainian presidents have also taken measures uh to uh uh assign the status of hero to uh some of those fighters. Even in uh January, I believe uh Zalinsky approved uh the naming of uh of a a training center for unmanned uh systems units um with the name of a former UPA um commander. So this has been around for for a long time and I think Zilinski uh may have seen how the issue uh raises emotions in Poland uh provokes response but then the issue dies down. But what's going on now, particularly since the uh since the presidential uh election is that the the right in Poland after 20 years of domination by law and justice really is starting to fragment and the splinters are fighting ferociously over nationalist voters and the uh Volinia UPA issue um is simply um excellent material for uh uh for persuading those voters uh to vote for them and uh and that's what we've seen happen.

[00:07:44]>> All right. Now coming back to you Robert now both of you touch on the issue of Binia albeit a little bit differently.

[00:07:52]Now you've argued that keeps handling the issue is fundamentally damaging trust while a steward also suggests that it is becoming increasingly tangled with Poland's domestic politics. Do you think Valinia has become a central obstacle to the relationship or rather is it a symptom of a broader change and also uh has much to do with the escalation for what Sur described as the fragmented right?

[00:08:14]Again, I mean, we we we we can discuss and probably, you know, we would need, you know, more than whatever 10 15 minutes that to discuss the dynamics on the Polish political scene. And yes, you know, I I agree that this is a kind of a rallying call or whatever cynical to some extent, you know, um excuse to go in that direction. But uh you cannot ignore uh the actual public because you know otherwise you would say you know the argument would be that it's you know the the the general public and the views are absolutely clear right uh you know to put it differently uh the Polish society you know the Voxy will simply not allow this issue more to be kind of you know relegated back seat they they they want some kind of uh progress on this because they believe never mind the governments of the day they change presidents changed right? Um that you know there's been some kind of you know complete uh it's almost a provocation in terms of our sensitivities and you know Poland is you know this is a particularly tough issue uh with you know this is as I said you know this is you know which by the way Ukrainians this this is also a bit difficult to understand because you know Russians would find this very convenient uh if uh if if Ukraine in this case tries to relativize ethnic cleansing with elements of genocide because that's exactly what they're trying to do particularly in eastern or those areas that they control. So, you know, they they're going to throw this you know them but to to to go back to to to your question. So the vox popular issue is important and you know Poland is not that an is the issue is maybe more emotion than others but look at the history I don't know you know Japan and Korea I mean this you have to go back to the second war you have European countries which which are kind of very attached history and they try this is this is precisely the point you know in the European community not just European Union uh nations try to you know show sympathy understanding for the other points of view even if they sometimes disagree. This one is much much more clear-cut and yet we have a situation in which Ukraine and it's a country fighting war and this is not in my view about sort of feeling grateful to the polls as some people suggest.

[00:10:35]This is simply a recognition that you know it's not a good idea to to enter into this um this sort of excuse me I punch up history which for a I don't think Ukraine can win but also it brings out you know the the the sentiments which I find really really worrying but primarily for for Ukraine the statistics which show that majority of polls do not support Ukraine's membership in NATO which was Poland's you uh you know Poland was the strongest supported valier and the same goes for you. This this is not clever apart from frankly uh being dubious uh from the point of view of just sort of you know as I mentioned this this sort of sentiments and good relation and you know to quote I think minister Shikoski did that the quote Polish pope right who said during a visit to Viv you know many years ago you can only build reconciliation on the truth. We have some dark chocolates in our history too but maybe not perfectly but we're trying to deal with them you know whether it's you know Polish Jewish relations and there some other aspects but if a country which claims that no no that this is this is all relative then that that that is not the prescription for for the future and that is a problem for our bilateral relations but that is a problem for Ukraine's future overall >> right so I I do want to end on that whatever the causes is the practical question is can Ukraine realistically advance towards EU membership without rebuilding political consensus in Poland and I think that would be quite difficult. So what do you think is some of the more important step that could be taken for this relationship to come back to a stronger footing?

[00:12:13]>> Well, it's interesting that Zalinski's uh deescalation package as people are calling it on Friday um uh has uh has been people have described it a step in the right direction. even even from the president's office there were voices there that it was a step in the right direction. I think it was I think it was received uh with a greater sense of relief um on the government's side uh here. But of course it uh it doesn't address the real issue only it only deals with uh the the archive issue and the which isn't really an issue actually because Polish historians have been working in the archives uh for for a long time very successfully although maybe making indexes available will will will help that but the the exumation issue is is real. Um and it's a it's an open wound uh for Polish uh society.

[00:13:02]It's it's a spiritual emergency that those people are lying in the ground without without Christian burials. So that's a positive step, but we have to see uh if it's followed up with um with u actual um permits being granted because we saw the agreement from the end of 202425 between the foreign ministers to push that process uh forward, the excumations I mean um has really stalled the the the there are so many applications that simply been uh left unanswered. Um and of course it doesn't touch at all the fundamental issue which is uh the um promotion and glorification of uh of the UPA >> right so yeah things are still quite tricky and of course I do believe that we all want to see this relation being amended uh either way we look at this of course that's the only way going forward guys thank you so much for being here on TVP world and to hash things out give us a little bit of background of what is going on between the bilateral relations. In the meantime, thank you so much for being with us here on World Talks. Thank you.

[00:14:07]>> Thanks.

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