The Not-So-Subtle Signs You're A ‘Time Optimist'

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:03]Hello and welcome to Mamame Mia out loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Monday the 11th of May.

[00:00:09]I'm Holly Wayne writes.

[00:00:11]>> I'm Class Stevens.

[00:00:12]>> I'm Amelia Lester.

[00:00:13]>> And here's what's made our agenda for today.

[00:00:16]>> Some people are liked by everyone they meet. This is what they all do.

[00:00:20]>> And are you a time optimist? Holly and Cla are. And I want to find out how their brain works. [laughter] Friends, if you love big brands at small prices, TK Maxx is exactly where it's at. We're talking highquality finds on all kinds of fashion and accessories for the whole family. Plus, homeware, beauty, and gifts. Whether you're updating your wardrobe, refreshing your space, or just love a shop, TK Maxx makes it easy to find incredible value no matter your budget. But first, look, I don't know about you two, but my algorithm was hijacked on the weekend by men dancing in short shorts.

[00:00:59]>> You're the one who introduced me to this. You're the one who triggered my algorithm with [laughter] your story of Harry Styles in his little shorts.

[00:01:07]>> Oh my goodness. Which was good because look, the global anxiety ain't getting any better, right? There's a lot of stuff going on out there. and enter one Harry Styles who has released I think it's the third video from his new album.

[00:01:20]Now Harry's in a little bit of trouble at the minute because his concert tickets are really really expensive and they're not selling quite as well as one would hope. [gasps] But he knew how to counteract this negative commentary. Get the short shorts on. release a video that is literally just you thrusting in a very pleasing choreographed manner to a thirsty thirsty crowd which is what he did. Then next flick to next slide on my [laughter] on my social media feed.

[00:01:50]Taran Edjetton. Do you know who he is?

[00:01:52]>> I do.

[00:01:53]>> What's he been in? Okay.

[00:01:54]>> He was in Sing for a start. So anyone with small children knows exactly who Taran Edjetton is.

[00:02:00]>> What else? Although he was been an animated animal in that movie.

[00:02:04]>> He was in the Elton John B. He played Elton John. That's why I fell in love with him. I thought he was great in that.

[00:02:10]>> He's just so charming and talented. He's kind of like a Welsh Hugh Jackman.

[00:02:14]>> He is rumored to be the next Bond.

[00:02:16]>> Him and Lordi duking it out to be the next Bond.

[00:02:20]>> Beautiful. [laughter] >> But anyway, he is also all over your feed dancing in short shorts because he's promoting this movie that's on Netflix called Apex. And >> yes, >> the way to get people to watch this movie is to dance in short shorts. I fell for this. Watched this movie on the weekend. It's not good.

[00:02:37]>> So, I was curious because it was filmed in the Blue Mountains. It has Charlie Siron, who I also love. Why is it not good?

[00:02:43]>> So, it's a horror movie that isn't quite a horror movie and it's a thriller that isn't quite a thriller, >> but it has an excellent promotional hook and that is that Taran Editton who plays Psycho in it.

[00:02:57]>> Okay. Not that >> psycho, which is a bit of a red [laughter] flag.

[00:03:00]>> No, it's not. In the trailer, he is revealed to be a psycho. So, it's not a spoiler that he's a psycho, [gasps] >> but he does this thing where he's Charlie Theron is there and he gets a big speaker out and he goes, "You've got until this end of this song to get as far away from me as possible." And >> which is a good premise if not a particularly realistic one. It's like how the killer in movies is always like, I'm going to explain what I'm going to [laughter] do to you at length >> and give you an opportunity to get away.

[00:03:28]>> And so Taran Eden presses play and and dances a lot >> and it's like Darth Punk or something.

[00:03:33]>> It's a weird It's a really weird dance and everyone's doing it on Tik Tok.

[00:03:37]>> Everyone's doing confus if you've seen a dance.

[00:03:40]>> I need to see this movie now. I'm sorry.

[00:03:41]I know you say it isn't good.

[00:03:43]>> Don't watch the movie. Just watch that bit. The movie is disturbing.

[00:03:46]>> Can Taran even play a bad guy? He's such a good guy.

[00:03:48]>> No, he's really bad in it. But anyway, >> but he's got an Aussie accent. Is the Aussie accent bad?

[00:03:53]>> No, the Aussie accent's good, but the the reflection of Aussie men in general is bad. Everybody Shal's bumps into wants to do bad things to her. Sort of lots of outback cliches. But anyway, I digress. The way that Taran has been promoting this on Instagram is that he is doing that doing his dance in little short shorts.

[00:04:14]>> Do you think he ever thinks to himself Clark Gable never had to do this?

[00:04:18][laughter] I reckon he does, but then I think he thinks this is where we're living now.

[00:04:22]This is where I live. So, the short Shorts is back and I'm not mad about it.

[00:04:28]And then, just to confirm my status as the most basic of [ __ ] mega brand Adidas launched their World Cup ad. It's about to be the football world cup, soccer world cup to you people, but football world.

[00:04:42]>> Confused people >> to uh to me. Uh it's going to be in Mexico. It's going to be in America.

[00:04:46]It's going to be The FIFA World Cup TM >> FIFA World Cup sponsored [laughter] by Adidas TM or Adidas TC standing for Timothy Shalame.

[00:04:57]>> Oh, >> because some of my basic obsessions also invaded this short ad that's a short film because I don't know there are no starving people in the world. Whatever.

[00:05:06]They needed to spend $120 million on the ad. But it's got Shalamay, Bad Bunny, close personal friend of mine. um a young David Beckham and it relies a young David Beckham.

[00:05:18]>> So they AI in a like mohawk era David Beckham because it's got all ' 90s nostalgia.

[00:05:25]>> Wake me up when they do this with the Spice Girls.

[00:05:27]>> Well, they will. But what is it about the man in the shorts? It's just so sexy and it's so distracting and it's so wholesome. And on the weekend I was I was sitting at brunch and one person was like, "How about the UFOs?" And I was like, this is one of those moments where you see where everyone's algorithm is cuz [laughter] what are you talking about?

[00:05:50]Trump.

[00:05:53][laughter] >> I was like, not looking at the UFOs. I'm looking at some red little shorties and I'm looking at Harry Styles doing a sexy little dance. And it's just ah it's the gender fluidity of it. It's the I just really like it. Merryill Street is in her DGAF era and I for one am here for it because she has now taken on a personal bug bear of mine. In an interview with Vanity Fair, she revealed Goldie Horn was constantly late to set when the two of them were filming Death Becomes Her. Here is a clip of Meil talking about it and then Goldie responding on the red carpet.

[00:06:32]>> Yeah. So, I had a beef with her. What do you remember [laughter] about working with >> gone 15 minutes late to everything?

[00:06:39]>> I do. I mean, honestly, it's unbelievable. But, um, I think we got through that. I mean, we've been such good friends for so long. It says so, but this is her joke. So, she said she I was too late on the set. Maybe she's too early. I don't know. You know, sometimes when you're too early, you're still waiting for somebody. You think, "Oh god, where the hell is she?"

[00:06:55]>> Goldie, I can't believe she says that.

[00:06:57]Maybe she's too early. [laughter] This is the problem with late people. They pass along the problem to early people.

[00:07:04]Holly Hudson in the Guardian wrote rather delightfully that um you know how in that clip Goldie says that she's like, "Yeah, I'm 15 minutes late to everything." She was like, "That's like when the doctor asks you how much you drink, like you just have to multiply it. 15 [laughter] minutes is not accurate." And um Polly references a Swedish term for the chronically late, which is actually far too nice for them.

[00:07:24]And that term is time optimists. These are people who believe a half hour journey can be made in 15 minutes. These are people who believe that a bag for a weekend trip can be packed in 5 minutes when it actually takes 20. Yeah, you're both nodding. Claire, is time optimist a helpful label for you to explain why you are always late? Is that what's going on inside your head?

[00:07:44]>> Yes.

[00:07:45]>> Help me to understand.

[00:07:46]>> It makes me feel um a lot better about it because I'm not an optimist about anything. And so thinking that I might be an optimist when it comes to time is lovely. Uh in that article the the author wrote, "Would would they manage to be on time for a date with Harry Styles?" Exactly. And my answer to that is genuinely no. [laughter] GENUINELY NO. I am late. It's almost like the more important something is, the later I am to it.

[00:08:13]>> What is that? So, I read an article literally 10 years ago that explained myself to me and it actually started out with the idea of time optimism. And it's by Tim Urban, Wait, But why? It's my favorite blog of all time. But he kind of expresses the time optimism idea at the beginning and tries to be like, "Yeah, maybe I'm just really optimistic." And then he's like, "No, let's be honest. I'm insane." And he breaks down the fact that he calls himself a chronically late insane person.

[00:08:44]>> A clip.

[00:08:44]>> A clip. And so he's like there's okay lateness and not okay latess.

[00:08:49]>> I agree with this.

[00:08:50]>> He's like I fall into not okay lateness and he's like there are those who don't feel bad about it and there are those who have self-loathing. I have self-loathing. That makes you a chronically late insane person and that's me.

[00:09:01]>> But isn't there okay lateness and not okay lateness that is uh situation specific? cuz I believe that I believe there are things it's okay to be late for and things it's not okay to be late for.

[00:09:10]>> Is it okay to be late for Holly?

[00:09:12]>> So I am a late person, but I'm selectively late. I'm rarely late for work and I'm rarely for this record.

[00:09:19]>> Would you be late to a date with Harry Styles?

[00:09:23]>> Of course not. [laughter] >> Holly's like, I've got my priorities in.

[00:09:28]>> Maybe Holly's not equipped then. She's not chronically.

[00:09:31]>> But you're not insane. I think in my other areas of my life, we are always 15 minutes late. And my daughter, who is 16 now, is has internalized this and says to me all the time, we are always late for everything and she hates it, right?

[00:09:45]And I try really hard to not be, but I just can't.

[00:09:47]>> Can I tell you the good news? Because your daughter is like that, she is going to be a punctual person her whole life as a result.

[00:09:54]>> She probably is. But this is my defense.

[00:09:56]Okay, lateness, here's an example, right? I am meeting for we're meeting for drinks at 7:00, dinner at 7:30. I'm leave I won't leave the office till 6:30 even though I know it will take at least 25 minutes depending on traffic and I'm not ready yet because anytime between 7 and 7:15 is fine in that situation cuz you're in a bar, you've got your phone, you've got a drink, you don't care.

[00:10:17]Okay, latess, right?

[00:10:19]>> You can order a drink.

[00:10:20]>> We need to get back to the phone after this.

[00:10:23]If I'm if me and my daughter are going to pick up a friend to go shopping and we say 10:30 a.m.

[00:10:29]>> Anytime before 11 is fine because she's at home, she's warm. She's fed. She's not done. That's fine. Like that's okay lateness in my mind.

[00:10:36]>> I'm not nodding. [laughter] >> I want the record to be I'm not nodding.

[00:10:39]>> Am I wrong that that's okay lately?

[00:10:41]>> There is one event to which you are permitted to be late. In fact, to which you are expected to be late and that is dinner at someone's house. You must arrive 7 to 15 minutes after the designated time.

[00:10:55]>> Definitely not early.

[00:10:56]>> And I will literally because I'm on time everywhere, I will have to walk around the block a couple of times because it feels so wrong to be 7 to 15 minutes late. But that is what I will do cuz that is the one event to which you are allowed to be late.

[00:11:08]>> Why are you so punctual, Amelia?

[00:11:10]>> Because I grew up in a household where we [laughter] were late to things and it made me really stressed. So I recognize your daughter's pain. I do want to talk about phones and how they have changed the game a little bit because I think that for people who are on time, we care less now if people are late. That is my contention because I before I used to have to stare into thin air and think about the rise of One Nation instead of just scrolling my phone. Now I can just scroll my phone and I'm not bored. And so I don't care as much if people are late these days.

[00:11:43]>> Do you think that's true? Have you noticed that people are less annoyed at you these days?

[00:11:46]>> Yeah. Yeah. And and that they might even be like, "Oh, it's okay. I'll get a little bit of work done." Like they'll like answer some emails. Like I'm like, "I'm giving you time back. I'm actually doing a favor here." But I will say, as much as like I am insane, I don't understand how time works. I will never understand how it works. How it just it goes it goes so fast. It's just amazing how quickly it goes. And everything [laughter] always takes longer. I agree.

[00:12:11]>> Than you think it will just take 15 minutes. Everything takes 15 minutes. [laughter] >> Every time maps I get in the car and it's like it's going to take 20 minutes and the next minute 28 minutes and this is on you.

[00:12:24]>> Since you have said that time takes time I think that's your observation. I have to ask you about another equally obvious thing. Being late is anxietyinducing.

[00:12:35]Why are you living like that? Why are you not embracing the relaxed pace of someone who is on time?

[00:12:41]>> Yeah. Okay. So um Okay. It's two other things. Um, one is the in the- moment reality of um I never I never want to stop what I'm doing. So, it's actually like the the actual >> Yes, you're more present. That's what you're [laughter] saying. You're just simply more present in the moment.

[00:13:00]>> No, it's that like for example, and I'm finding this more and more like if I have to leave the office, I kind of twiddle around and like don't I think it's genuinely the transition of leaving the office. not get that because all I want to do is leave the office and go to the bar to have the 7:00 p.m. drink. I do not understand.

[00:13:17]>> I don't know. I just kind of like wander around in circles and then but then it's also I think that that because I'm always late. This is it. Because I'm always late and I've never known what it's like to not be late. I assume I will be late and I'm delaying that self-loathing. [laughter] >> Yes.

[00:13:38]>> Which [snorts] which is a cycle. So I'm like, I hate turning up late, so what I'll do is I'll procrastinate turning up, which makes me later. [laughter] >> Okay. Okay.

[00:13:48]>> So it's insane.

[00:13:51]>> There was a comment on that blog post that you mentioned that I thought was really interesting. The comment said that late people have to train themselves to trust themselves again because they've kind of like lost faith in their own word. So an example would be like if you say, "I'm going to get up at 6:30." But you know that you actually always press the snooze button and actually get up at 6:45. So you kind of don't trust yourself. Do you think that's part of it?

[00:14:16]>> 100%. I've spoken to my psychologist about this. It's like self-efficacy.

[00:14:20]Like the belief that you can do what you said you were going to do and it's really depressing when that falls off.

[00:14:27]Like the idea of I'll go to the gym and I'm like I know I won't. I never hold my word myself.

[00:14:32]>> It's like the self-t talk is no longer something you believe in.

[00:14:36]>> Yes. But then I think you can structure your life a bit where it's like I am scared of other people. So I do being accountable to other people.

[00:14:44]>> You don't like being in trouble.

[00:14:46]>> I don't like being in trouble.

[00:14:47]>> When you're when you're late, you're in trouble a lot.

[00:14:49]>> And it's like I have to kind of set my life up where I'm a little bit scared.

[00:14:54]>> Yeah. Right. Of other people.

[00:14:56]>> Yes. And I will say I reckon I'm late less now than I used to be because I have genuinely slowed my life down a little bit >> from like my 20s.

[00:15:06]>> You're less time optimistic.

[00:15:08]>> Yeah. I just I I genuinely have a bit more to which sounds sounds crazy because with a toddler and and I think maybe having a toddler being aware that everything really does take three times as long as you think it will because of her. I deeply believe in the optimism bit of it though. I think the late people are generally more she'll be right, aren't they? Like isn't that the kind of the thing?

[00:15:31]>> Maybe today will be the >> There are some things you cannot be late for. You cannot be late for job interviews. You cannot be late for weddings. You cannot be late for you know something very specific. A friend's asked you to support them at a medical appointment. Like obviously you can't be late for those things. But I don't the people the punctual people who just say all lateness is selfish. I can't subscribe to that. Can we talk a little bit about um how you notify people of your lateness? Cuz that's changed a bit with phones, too. So, some punctual people say, "I don't care how late you are as long as you keep me in the loop."

[00:16:03]>> I am not one of those people. I do not want to hear like the the like status checks every 5 minutes of the fact that the traffic is so bad and the fact that you couldn't find your shoe. I don't want to know. I just want to sit there in peace until you arrive. But, but there's two camps. So, do you find yourself having to navigate those two camps?

[00:16:21]>> I'm the same. I don't want the update. I was having lunch with friends on Saturday and Jesse um uh just went to the wrong venue. Um and and she was sending all these updates and I was like, I'm [laughter] busy cuz I'm here.

[00:16:35]Like, I don't. And she's like, I got the bus to the wrong place. [laughter] I thought we were going here.

[00:16:40]>> I thought I'm like just arrive like we're not we're not checking in on your messages. [laughter] >> No one cares. I have a specific kind of time blindness where once I'm late, I can't look anymore at the at the time.

[00:16:52]So, you know, like say I said I was going to meet you at 7:00 and I'm still stuck on the bus and it's traffic >> and now it could be 7 it could be 7:10.

[00:16:59]It could be 7:25. I'm like I'm just going to be late. I can't look at.

[00:17:02]>> So, you're not telling them, you're not giving them the status update.

[00:17:05]>> Just all I'm going to say and this I know none of this covers me in glory is don't believe whatever status update I [laughter] give you. So, if I message and say 5 minutes, just know it's at least 50. [laughter] I'm going to be optimistic and I'm also going to lie to your face because I don't want to upset you. And then once I'm stuck on the bus and it's in traffic, I can't make it go faster. So, what's the point of looking at the time? That's the way I feel about it.

[00:17:28]>> I came across an Instagram carousel last week and my thumb stopped immediately because it read, "Some people are liked by everyone they meet. Researchers found out the one thing they all do." And I was like, "Cool, easy. I'll just solve this lifelong problem in an Instagram carousel," which is how I feel about most of my time on social media. Now, before I explain this in layman's terms, I should probably give an appropriate citation for those following along at home. This is based on a research study called Deconstructing the Reign of Error: Interpersonal Warmth explains the self-fulfilling prophecy of anticipated acceptance.

[00:18:06]>> You know, the academics were so pleased with themselves. reign of error. And everyone's like, what are you talking about? It doesn't make any sense. Um, but this is why we need Instagram carousels because that is just a clunky title. Now, before I explain this in layman's terms, I should probably give an appropriate citation. This is based on a research study called deconstructing the reign of error.

[00:18:27]Interpersonal warmth explains the self-fulfilling prophecy of anticipated acceptance by Stinson etal in the personality and social psychology bulletin. Does it say something about why everybody doesn't like you that you had to give us all those citations before you start?

[00:18:43]>> Um, yes. Because [laughter] I'm like, there will be somebody listening who's like, I have a degree in psychology and I think that you might be misrepresented.

[00:18:49]>> And also, I also I just need to also clarify that I don't think that nobody [laughter] LIKES YOU. I'M JUST GIVING YOU [ __ ] >> I should also hasten to add that I don't think that the secret to everyone liking you is being on time. Meil Street was correct when she described herself as annoying for being on time. It is annoying. I fully own it. It's not particularly warm, which is not likeable.

[00:19:09]>> So, apparently people's expectations of acceptance often come to create the acceptance or rejection that they anticipate.

[00:19:19]>> Well, tell me what that means.

[00:19:21]>> Explain that more.

[00:19:22]>> So, these researchers ran two separate studies. And again, for those scientific people following along at [laughter] home, one was correlational, but one was an experiment. So, we've got the both the best of both worlds. So study one, the participants had to film a video introduction for a group. It's a pretty daunting thing to do and when you get on a Zoom and you're like, "Everyone hates my face. I hate my face." But those observers rated things like their confidence and their warmth and whether they actually liked them. And in that, oh god, how water >> I know. And in that correlational study, warmth was the biggest predictor >> even through someone because that's not easy through a screen warmth.

[00:20:04]>> Isn't this basically what we do three times a week?

[00:20:06]>> Yeah. Damn. Yeah, it is.

[00:20:07]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Screen screen warmth.

[00:20:12]>> So, it wasn't it wasn't their confidence, it wasn't their mood, it wasn't um kind of their energy, it was warmth. And then in study two, single men had a face-to-face interaction with a woman and it was filmed and half those men were given a little cue beforehand that basically lowered the risk of rejection. So it warmed them up. So it might have been something like, "Oh, she likes guys like you," or whatever. Like something that was just a bit of a >> You look like Taran Edge.

[00:20:44]>> Yeah. Something like that. Observers then watched these interactions and rated how likable the guy was. And men who expected rejection, men who hadn't been primed with anything nice, were seen to be colder and they were less liked.

[00:21:00]>> Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:21:00]>> than observers. Whereas men who had received a bit of a cue to reduce the risk of rejection were warmer and better liked. So the researchers explained that when people feel uncertain about whether they'll be accepted, they kind of pull back on that warmth.

[00:21:15]>> It's preemptive. It's defensive.

[00:21:17]>> Yes. To minimize the potential rejection. Cuz >> basically, if you think if you walk around thinking people are going to like you, you're going to be warmer.

[00:21:25]>> Yes.

[00:21:26]>> And if you walk around thinking that people are going to have a problem with you, you're going to give off more reserved cold energy.

[00:21:32]>> Yes. And the important part of um the uh design of this study, Holly, is that >> Oh my god.

[00:21:39]>> It's not just that people [laughter] some people are warm.

[00:21:43]>> It's not that.

[00:21:44]>> No.

[00:21:44]>> It's something that can be manipulated.

[00:21:46]So if I say to you, Amelia says she actually thinks you're really cool, Ollie, and she really likes you. You're going to be more likable to Amelia.

[00:21:54]>> Whereas if I say Amelia was bitching about you in the lift this morning, you're going to be colder.

[00:21:59]>> So it's something that we can all embrace. which like you you're not born with it.

[00:22:03]>> Yeah. Which I really like.

[00:22:05]>> But this see to me that explains a well I mean it it um illustrates a lot because people who generally are really good with people in inverted commas and go around the world being good with people.

[00:22:22]There is an element of privilege that they've got where people generally like them, right? And so they go into every situation thinking this will be fine.

[00:22:30]And that there's a whole lot of reasons in your life that that will will or won't be true, right? That are very complicated. Like my mom always used to say, you should always be happy to see your kids. That was her only parenting rule really is like every time you see them from when they're a little baby till when they're 50, smile. Look happy to see them.

[00:22:49]>> Now, that's a very good piece of advice.

[00:22:51]Easier to pull off for some people than others depending on your life stresses.

[00:22:55]But I reckon the people who are walking into rooms going like, I'm here are the people who probably their mom was always happy to see them.

[00:23:02]>> Yeah. Like it's privilege. It's it's privilege in a way or they're very good at faking it.

[00:23:07]>> And I reckon it's you're right. I reckon it comes from self-esteem as you grow up. Like just generally thinking that you're a worthy person. The other thing I thought about a lot with this >> is physical attractiveness. Because I'm like, if you grow up beautiful, >> you probably get so much nice feedback that you then assume people are going to like you and then because you assume they will, then they do.

[00:23:33]>> But that does but does that mean like are you saying that like >> do you think every supermodel is incredibly warm? I'm not sure that's in fact that's famously not true. No, but I think there is some. You know how like they always say like people who are physically attractive freaking money and all of that stuff. I think it probably is.

[00:23:53]>> That's true. But and I'm not pulling out a tiny violin for Ka Gerber here, but it probably it would change the way people related to you in lots of different ways and they would not all be positive >> cuz people might be cold to you.

[00:24:04]>> Yeah. People a people would famously and this isn't true but it's a stereotype that women don't like pretty women. Also they might see them as a threat. Also men might see you and again this is stereotypically but you could be they might be more predatory towards you. So although there is truth to that I don't think it could be like it's probably more are you okay LOOKING [laughter] >> LIKE WHATEVER THE WHATEVER your culture deems unoffensive >> like which again plays into that part of like you know a lot of this you wouldn't have anything to do with. Do you reckon there are tricks that anyone could do to make them seem warmer to people if that's indeed what your aim is?

[00:24:42]>> Well, I mean, I think that's a question for you, Holly Wayne, right? Because every time we do any kind of thing on the podcast about like your favorite host or which host you are doing this, [laughter] >> it's not exactly that, but there was a personality there was a personality test that was like which one are you? Which one are you? And everyone wanted to be Holly and Jesse and Mia cried about it for months.

[00:25:05]>> And at the live show, >> I just think it's cuz Emily's threatening.

[00:25:09]>> That's what [laughter] it is.

[00:25:11]>> You That's what a liable person would say.

[00:25:15]>> I have one practical tip. Um I once met the founder of ESOP, >> you know, the fancy handwash guy. He's a Melbourneian.

[00:25:23]>> Um we had a coffee once. Um, and to this day, I have never met someone who smells so good.

[00:25:32]>> He just And it wasn't just pop a mint before the coffee. I don't know what it was, >> but I still remember that smell. And I do think someone smelling nice.

[00:25:42]Rihanna's another person who is very famous for smelling nice and she seems very warm. I wonder if like manipulating old factory >> senses could be a sort of shortcut to liability. You want to be around people who smell nice.

[00:25:56]>> And it probably makes you you going into a social situation being like, I know I smell nice.

[00:26:02]>> That must be really nice.

[00:26:04]>> I think I like I don't mind a bit of aloofness. I quite like a bit of win me over when I meet someone. But what I hate is snobbery. And I reckon you can tell there's a there's a little bit of um >> like I'm I've always impressed by people who are who don't immediately cuz fake warmth is worse than cold.

[00:26:25]>> Like fake warmth is the worst thing is people WHO ARE LIKE HI [screaming] and they've never met you and all of those kind of things.

[00:26:31]>> But then people who are I think you can read quite quickly whether somebody is trying to assess whether or not they have to be nice to you. And that is my snobbery radar. So, they're kind of going, "Do you seem important? Do you seem to is there something you could do for me?" And um I don't want to stereotype, but uh men in management positions are very good at this.

[00:26:53]>> Yeah. [laughter] >> Like when you kind of you you talk to them and you can tell that they are trying to get in the first few questions they ask you, they're trying to decide whether you're worthy of their warmth.

[00:27:03]The worst genuinely warm people are warm to everybody, right? And until you prove them, until you give them reason to not be. And it's so true that you have to kind of short circuit the rejection part of your brain. So there was another study recently that I remember the headline in the Atlantic was if you was in Vox, if you invite everyone to everything, you will be happier.

[00:27:25]>> And that was such a revelation for me because I'm not naturally someone who invites everyone to everything.

[00:27:30]>> No. Adorable.

[00:27:31]>> But I'm married to someone who invites everyone to everything. And it's astonishing what happens because sometimes they do get rejected. Like sometimes people are weird. Like it's not always the case that if you're warm to someone, they will be warmed up.

[00:27:41]>> Give me an example of of when you should invite invite everybody to everything.

[00:27:45]Like that where >> Well, what I've seen happen is my husband invites everyone to everything.

[00:27:51]And most people are kind of surprised and delighted and and like they're like, "Sure, I'll come to dinner. I don't really know you, but that sounds really nice." [laughter] But then there's this small percentage of people who will respond weirdly and who will be like, "I don't know you. I'm not coming to dinner." You know, and like instead of being completely discombobulated by that and going to cry in a corner, he just moves on.

[00:28:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's like my husband, he's gotten very into that lately where he'll have birthday drinks >> and just invite >> everyone and be like, "And everyone bring everyone and he'll plan a holiday and invite everyone >> and then he doesn't obsess about it, right? He doesn't have the birthday drinks and note very carefully who didn't show and then create a little voodoo doll of them for the next six months." [laughter] And what that has taught me generally is, you're right, there will be people who are who are like m and you're like, "Yeah, they're not my kind of people." But broadly, people are incredibly happy to be invited. And you realize >> 90% of someone liking you is them feeling like you like them.

[00:28:52]>> Yeah.

[00:28:53]>> As soon as you as and and I find it in in professional context, sometimes you sort of see someone, you're like, "Uh, do you hate me for reasons I haven't quite worked out yet?" like I don't know I don't know did I say something or write something at some point that was stupid whatever [snorts] and as soon as you get a little hint that maybe that they are warm and that they do or somebody will say oh I really liked this thing that you wrote or whatever you're like oh amazing and then it's this reciprocity of I like you because you like me I like you cuz you don't hate me [laughter] and so I try to I try to go into social situations and because it's true I think I pretty much like everywhere.

[00:29:33]>> But here's an example of like how it's actually quite hard to do in practice when you have a group exercise class. So this group of people has been thrown into a room together and they don't know each other.

[00:29:43]>> And I can think about being in a group exercise class where there is a woman like this.

[00:29:47]>> It's not just men. We should say that because we all talking about our husbands being like this, but there are women who are like this too. and they just say hello to everyone who comes in and they have a wishy repate with the instructor and then at the end of the class they say doing anything fun for the rest of your weekend and I'm like looking at them like I don't know you could not there's a confidence to it those people I love those people and you're right it's like and then you think going through the world like that you must attract so much >> it reminds me a bit about the mare walks that we talked about m a y o r I got a lot of feedback on that said that people thought we were talking about horses, mayors, but we're talking about like people who run councils who [laughter] just got voted out in England if they were Labour. So, mayor walks are when you just walk around your neighborhood and you just act like the local mayor.

[00:30:35]And I've been trying to do that more um on the bus. I try and like get up my courage and I say good morning to the bus driver. And that is should not be scary, but it is a little bit scary and invariably they say good morning back.

[00:30:50]But you do think in terms of certain celebrities who I guess have been painted as being cold or unlikable or whatever, it must be really hard to go through the world. I look at poor Megan and I'm like, it would be really hard to meet somebody and shake their hand and know that they have been swimming in the swamp of negativity and character destruction. The problem is we've talked about it a lot like likability over index is in importance for for public facing females. I don't like her. It's something you hear all the time about from women as well as manager. I just don't like her. I don't know what it is.

[00:31:26]I just don't like her.

[00:31:27]>> And that's a damning. They're done.

[00:31:30]They're dead to you. And it doesn't really matter what they do because if you've made that decision, everything they do then looks like a tryhard fake attempt to win you back. And it's nonsense. And there was a really interesting comment on this post where a woman wrote, "Women often withdraw warmth as a protective mechanism because they've had scary interactions with men in a way that men may not have had scary interactions with women." So if you've if you have been warm and it's and it's burnt you in that perhaps somebody then didn't respect your boundaries or you had a horrific experience with another human being then you may not be as willing to put that forward and that may come across as coldness when it's actually >> that's why you'll hear a lot of dudes say stuck up aren't you when what they mean is not putting up with my [ __ ] >> Holly do you think just to wrap it up here cuz I want to know how I can be more warm like you. [laughter] Yeah, we need >> Do you think that cuz I I do think I'm more kind of like blue cheese. If I was a person, I'm blue cheese.

[00:32:31]>> You're a cat.

[00:32:32]>> But [laughter] that's a good thing.

[00:32:34]That's a good thing.

[00:32:35]>> Um, do you actually consciously think when you meet someone new, you're just like, "Yeah, I you'll probably like me."

[00:32:42]Like, is that what's sort of going through your head?

[00:32:44]>> Of course not. What kind of monster would I be if [laughter] I marched around the world doing that? Of course I don't. I just genuinely think like I've probably learned through my life, haven't we, that if you're nice to people, generally they'll be nice to you. Like that it doesn't I don't have to like I don't want to sound like a [ __ ] but I don't have to think about saying hello to the bus driver.

[00:33:02]>> No, that's useful.

[00:33:03]>> Nice [laughter] to people and time is time. That's what we leave you with today.

[00:33:06]>> And I really really thought and dancing in short shorts [laughter] really helps to get people to like you.