How I escaped the sovereign citizen movement: Brodie Finegan Forbes (Part 2)

追加: 2026-06-01

[00:00:00]You're in the courts, you're arguing with the police, but you come back and you tell your story and it gets twisted and now you're a pioneer and a victor. The echo chamber reinforces that, makes it stronger and stronger and stronger. They were making their own weapons. Uh they would talk they would fantasize about how they would kill cops. I I went to the cops and that's like the worst thing you can do um because you're siding with um the big evil empire. Forgiveness is our evolution. As a society, individually, collectively, it's it is the path forward.

[00:00:49]In part two of my chat with former sovereign citizen, poet, writer, and a unique person, Brody Finnegan Forbes, we dissect the sovereign citizen ideology. We point out the failings and dangers of the movement. And we also bring in a bit of poetry, which is a first for I Catch Killers. And as far as I know, the first time it's been on a true crime podcast. I learned a lot about the sovereign citizen movement from Brody. And I think you will, too.

[00:01:15]Have a listen. Brody, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

[00:01:20]Thank you, Garry.

[00:01:22]We left you in part one and you were fully committed to uh the sovereign citizenship ideology at that stage. But uh things uh things turned around.

[00:01:33]One of the one of the quotes in the um book that uh you you wrote and I'll just read it out. Tendency um this is a hallmark of a sovereign citizen ideology.

[00:01:46]Tendency to misinterpret law and legislation is a hallmark of sovereign citizenship ideology. The misinterpretations create fear, spread misinformation, and give rise to conspiracy theories and pseudo-legal concepts which self-proclaimed gurus exploit for profit. Is that Is that a good What we've What we've talked about?

[00:02:06]And I I followed you the whole way through. You lost me on a couple of things in part one. But in essence, that's what the sovereign citizens citizenship ideology is all about? Yes. Yes. Um it it enables people to attribute to malice what can easily be explained by just simple incompetence. Yeah.

[00:02:27]>> Um you also see a lot of uh a lot of course selling.

[00:02:31]And course selling, you know, that that happens in the manosphere and all and like in forex trading and all these sort of things where people sell a course because apparently they've made, you know, a million-dollar business.

[00:02:45]Uh but when you go looking for the million-dollar business, it doesn't actually exist. The purpose of the course is to sell the course. That same thing pops up in the sovereign citizen world. Now, you had a task during the during the break and uh this will be a first for I Catch Killers and we've been doing it for a long time. But uh you kindly offered to uh prepare a uh poem for your appearance on I Catch Killers. Um are you prepared to read that poem out?

[00:03:13]I I have the perfect one. Okay. Okay.

[00:03:16]It's called The Public Eye.

[00:03:19]I'm nervous. Yes.

[00:03:21]I feel the pull to be something else.

[00:03:24]But I know something well, that I can try my best. I can orient, but the truth of me will be the only thing left.

[00:03:32]There you go. Wow.

[00:03:34]That was uh that was pretty powerful.

[00:03:36]Powerful. You are a poet.

[00:03:39]>> [laughter] >> Right. Very good. I suppose you've written quite a few poetry books. So, yeah. No, that that was good. What uh before we get back into uh sovereign uh citizenship, Mhm. what uh drives you to poetry? What's what's your interest in poetry? Where does that stem from?

[00:03:57]It feels like it's known me before.

[00:04:00]That's poetic in itself.

[00:04:03]>> [laughter] >> Yes, this It's it's the one thing I know how to do. Everything else it feels like I'm I'm a a person, a false face.

[00:04:16]I'm pretending to be whatever it is. This is the one thing that's it's it's my connection with the divine. It's um it's therapeutic, it's medicinal, it's also confronting, it allows me to to dive into parts of of my inner world that um I feel a necessary Yeah. um in order to organize myself. There's There's a lot of layers to it. Um but at this point I I think it has more control over me than I have over it. I kind of just get out of its way. I let it Right. It's It's It's It's It's It's It's It's It's It's >> writes flows that that deeply for you.

[00:04:56]Absolutely. Yeah. I've been I've been writing since I was 11 years old. Like Like same time like seriously since I was 11 years old. Hours every day. Um so I'm I'm now at the point where like I it's it's second nature. It is just part of me.

[00:05:12]I know it I know it can be powerful. I was uh going out with someone and she was very much into uh poetry and she used to drag me along to uh recitals at hotels in the inner west. And uh you know, I I would I was dragging uh uh dragging kicking and screaming the first time I went there. But uh I I found it quite interesting. It was yeah, some uh some poems really really touch you in an emotional way. Others are funny or just it's yeah, it's raw.

[00:05:41]Yeah. Yeah, I I agree. My My poetry is uh >> [sighs] >> For me, it's an exploration of everything, life, myself, my emotions, uh critiques of society, anything. Um but it is raw. It's It hurts. It costs something for me to write. Yeah. And that's really It allows me to feel deeper than than I I've felt any doing anything else, really.

[00:06:15]Well, what what I saw of it, and I'm by no means an expert, uh but it expect you you're exposed when you you're reading out poetry or reciting poetry and you can feel that that there's a vulnerability to the person that's standing there um reading out there or reciting their their poetry. Yes. Yeah, it I I think that poetry, um there's my own bias, but I I think that poetry needs uh to be authentic. It It It needs It's It's an authenticity is not pretty all the time. And it can be very ugly. It can be hateful.

[00:06:50]It can be disgusting. It can be uh so sad. Um but that's what gives it bite. That's what gives it life.

[00:07:00]>> of it. Yeah. Yeah. Le- leaves an impression. Mhm.

[00:07:04]As uh sovereign citizens do. So, let's get Well, >> [laughter] >> Let's get uh let's get back into it.

[00:07:12]Now, we left you in part one. Life was going good. You were giving the cops hell even when they pulled you over for a Give them hell, son. Give giving them hell, and you come out on top, and you've won again. Mhm. Um but it got to the point then we we touched on the compound and the dynamics in the compound, and there there's even in that um yeah, where there's equity for everyone, there tends to be the the the dominant um alpha male as you described.

[00:07:38]It got to the point that uh you felt that the the very system that you were pushing against, you needed the system to help you. What What What happened there? So, got to mid-October, I was now for a couple months, so I was at the kind of the sharp end of the abuse.

[00:07:58]I was I was copping it quite a bit from not just the alpha male, but from uh a lot of other people as well. Like cuz it was very political. For for For for a for a movement that, you know, espouses uh we're all free and, you know, loving and caring and all that.

[00:08:18]Okay, this is where I This is where I wanted to get you. You You're starting to see the irony of some of the concepts. Absolutely. Yeah, so I I was at the blunt end of the hammer and um I was the nail and I was really copping it and I uh I got assaulted. Um I was getting psycho like the psychological abuse was relentless. Um Uh so, I fled in the middle of the night. Um packed a bag, called someone else who was up in the move in the movement um cuz I wasn't out of it. I was still in it, but just getting out of the compound, getting out of the the danger zone um of of what I interpreted as the danger zone. Um And I called a friend up and in the middle of the night I grabbed my cat grabbed my bag. Um I had a little van that like was not roadworthy. It was full of rust and I was trying to put it together and that was going to be the escape plan cuz I knew for a while that like I need to get out. This is starting to get worse and worse and worse. Um and then fled in the middle of the night, went to the next town over, uh a place called Dimboola and I was um homeless.

[00:09:28]>> [laughter] >> I was homeless and I was living in a tent with my cat and my uh van with leaks all through it and you know, it was wonderful. Uh quite I still remember the sand and how it got in everything. Uh >> [laughter] >> I went Uh but I was still doing seminars. I was still uh I had my own little seminar running. I'd be offered to go to other neighboring towns like Stawell, Jeparit.

[00:09:55]Um I even went to Melbourne. I even went up to Sydney and did uh different seminars. I did a I did seminars everywhere from like places which look like a hoarder was living there to uh like multi-million dollar apartments overlooking Sydney Harbor. There wasn't the like people are involved in this movement. They're not like they're not like all poor or all you know, white or whatever. It's it's all kinds of people.

[00:10:21]Um all social classes, everything. So you're you're doing these seminars.

[00:10:26]You're traveling and and you're like-minded people coming in and you're you're the man. You're you're explaining the what what's going on and uh people are buying into it. Yeah, pretty much.

[00:10:37]Um and uh yeah, so I um in exchange I was I was, you know, getting fed, getting put up. People were paying for things for me because I like I didn't have Santa Anica. I was trying to make this happen. I was trying to get my hands on that birth certificate bank account.

[00:10:53]That beautiful birth certificate bank account that um you know, is is is the allure of of of the puzzle of the movement. Pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Yeah, the gold at the end of the rainbow.

[00:11:07]Um so Yeah, I I'd fled in the middle of the night and then the guy who ran the compound started to come after me um cuz you know, I'd I'd essentially taken a step back and fled. I I was gone. Um so he'd come after me, tried to extort me and he said, "Oh, you owe me, you know, it was in silver because uh like silver is the currency, the real currency, apparently.

[00:11:33]Um so, silver and gold, he wanted me to pay him like something like three, four thousand dollars. Um even though the whole time I was kind of working like a slave and uh doing all of the paperwork and a lot of other things. And I just wasn't having it. I was like, this guy's going to come up keep coming after me if I don't get help. Um and there were also like people who'd come to the barbecues and stuff because we were having like monthly barbecues and like hundreds of people were coming. And um I was there talking in front of them telling them my experiences and they'd tell their stories and uh yeah.

[00:12:08]Um There are also people in that uh those those events who were really dangerous. Like they were making their own weapons. Uh they were talk they were fantasizing about how they would kill cops. They were um like there's all sorts of people. You got a full spectrum of I was I was more leaning towards the side of let's figure out this birth certificate bank account, baby. Let's let's get our hands on that.

[00:12:34]But there's the other ones which are like, nah, it's a big club. Um they're all out to get us. We've got to It's and you get the survivalist part of it as well coming in. That's where it would get scary, isn't it? Yeah, very dangerous. Um so, I realized when I'd heard those speeches about, you know, like here's how you kill cops. You create a electromagnetic pulse weapon and two bullets to the back of the head, cut out their radio. Like they like it was always like a half-baked plan. And I I remember thinking at the time I'm like, that's [ __ ] insane. Like I I'm just here for the bank account.

[00:13:10]>> [laughter] >> Yeah. I'm sorry.

[00:13:12]I I'd fled and I was I was terrified, I genuinely. I was homeless and I was terrified and the only people I could rely on were people who were connected in that movement to other people in that movement who, you know, some of them were dangerous, some one were more like me. I I can see why you felt vulnerable. Yeah. Um so I I went to the cops and that's like the worst thing you can do um because you're siding with um the big evil empire.

[00:13:40]>> [laughter] >> These are the same cops who uh like in the months before were watching me in the cells like making a fool of myself and being real arrogant and to them and and they had every reason to turn me away um but I didn't they helped um which I'm forever grateful for um because they did their duty which is so important uh for people to just like yeah like at a point at a point and I've I've realized this in hindsight but at a point where I was desperate and and I think when I was an an addict as as a as a teenager um it was the same thing. I was I got to a point where I needed help I needed to reach out and I knew I needed help and if I was met with them just going no I can't away you're a sovereign citizen we don't have to deal with you Yeah. would have made me feel more isolated. Yeah. But I they met me with kindness. They met me as a human being and they were like we're going to deal with who you are now not with who you have been. And that was a real like holy holy crap these people are people.

[00:14:49]They're not part of the evil empire.

[00:14:51]>> [laughter] >> You know they're just doing their job they're just like they're treating me like someone who uh it's just a human being. And I was like I was shocked and it it made me go oh uh this is okay.

[00:15:08]>> [laughter] >> Was that a like a watershed moment? Like that's pretty telling. Did that that start to make you question everything that you've been uh Yeah because I was direction you've been heading in? That's why I call it the decentralized cult because you there there's like there like we had the alpha male and all that, but there's no like big leaders. It's just big egos. Um and and there's the the what's central is the ideology and there's lots of different avenues which that takes and wherever your predisposition towards you're going to kind of lean into it and it's going to drag you further in and and that. Um So with >> [sighs and gasps] >> me me coming out and going to the police, it was it was the biggest betrayal. They would be hiding it. Yeah, they did. Um immediately I was the enemy. Um I was getting I started getting threats. I started getting immediately uh like just looked at different by a lot of people in the movement. Um and that scared me.

[00:16:09]Um And uh yeah, so the police actually the police actually uh when I came to them I I got a call from them later on and and this was another officer who like I I knew who knew me and we've gone to this argument. He This was I went into Horsham and I apologized to the bloke. I went into Dimboola and I apologized to some other officers at the stations there. So they your apologies for when you've been a [ __ ] or Yeah, I was just like I need to rebuild a bridge here, man. Like I know you guys you want to help me, but I need to I need accountability. Accountability right now for me is important and I think accountability at all times is important, but at this moment it really shone a light on if I don't do this, I I what am I what have I learned? Mhm.

[00:16:58][laughter] I'm sorry. Anyway, I got a call from one of the one of the police who at one point in time I'd uh tried to get him to pay me uh $10,000 >> [snorts] >> uh for uh not accepting my paperwork. Uh so, you know, there's that. Like I I'd have this little notebook and I'd write out a little constructive contract and I'd hand it to him. And if he accepted it, that means he accepted the contract.

[00:17:20]>> And what? He didn't pay you the money?

[00:17:22]He didn't pay me the money. Can you believe it? But still still wondering where it is. I keep checking my bank account. No.

[00:17:28]Um yeah, it was it just at the time it was just like this is ridiculous, mate. And wrote it out right in front of me. And fair enough, like it was. I I get it.

[00:17:38]But yeah, so I I He actually called me up after I'd kind of come and apologize and all this sort of thing. And said, "Look, mate, can I come and Can we Can a few of us come and have a talk to you?"

[00:17:47]And they did. They they called me up. I met him in Dimboola. And they they just kind of said to me He actually said to me, and this is one of the funniest things of the whole thing. I we were wondering at the station we were wondering we had a bet going. We were wondering when you were going to figure this out.

[00:18:04]Yeah.

[00:18:04]>> Cuz they they knew that I was the man behind the paperwork. Yeah. And they knew that like that I was able to at least kind of discern a few things got coming and apologize and I I'm showing a bit of um I guess redemption. Um so >> [laughter] >> So yeah, that made me laugh and then um you know, they connected me to like domestic violence services and um eventually I I I made my way down to Melbourne and I uh lived at in the yoga studio on the floor. And I was still in the movement. Don't get me wrong. I was still doing all this stuff.

[00:18:42]>> Okay. Um but I wasn't I was more running the idea of we got to work with the government. We got to we got to figure out the secret It was still after that secret bank account cuz that was still there in my head. Um running these seminars of okay, why don't we just figure out the right paperwork and be real friendly with the government? Still paper manipulation and still uh yeah, inherently kind of trickery. Um but yeah, I was running these seminars and I was helping people kind of figure out we were all in it together trying to figure out this puzzle.

[00:19:14]And then at the same time I said to and people in the in the my sort of groups did the same as me.

[00:19:21]I said to him we're studying this stuff anyway. We're we're studying the legal sides of things. Why don't we take advantage of some of these free TAFE courses?

[00:19:30]Like accounting and finance and all this stuff. Now now you're thinking.

[00:19:37]So I went and did a diploma of finance and mortgage broking management. I did a certificate foreign accounting and bookkeeping. I did a cert four in credit management.

[00:19:45]And I did a bunch of security courses and quite a few different things just to the the original reason was because I was going to teach myself more about the system so I could get my hands on that birth certificate back.

[00:19:58]>> Knowledge is power. Yeah. And then as I learned more and more about these actual roles within the system, I realized that this is complex.

[00:20:09]The the way that we interpret mortgage bonds and um how you know money gets created out of thin air and all that sort of stuff.

[00:20:18]Thin air. So we I started to realize that our theories were not sound. They were were based on kind of just people's opinions.

[00:20:31]About um and then that that opinion would get like so so commonly said in that that it just becomes second nature. It's just repeated Yeah. You believe that our money's you know out of thin air and and you know your signature you sign that and then they go double dip at the treasury and get money from your birth certificate bank account and all this sort of stuff.

[00:20:52]And like the idea that your money does like your signature does create value is true in terms of mortgage bonds but it's not it's not that it creates it out of thin air. It's because you've signed saying I will pay X amount because my my like sweat and blood and hard work and labor can guarantee that.

[00:21:13]And that's and and the more that I learned through these studies like formal studies the more that I started to realize that our opinions about all of this founded on a very shaky foundation and they're not it's not real. It's wrong.

[00:21:29]And then the more I and then the other people who are studying as well started to come to the same conclusion which is so we yeah just started to pull away more and more and more and um Yeah it's just it was kind of like a slow un-brainwashing.

[00:21:45]Funny like in the movement you think everyone else is brainwashed but I was I was brainwashed by the by the echo chamber. Yeah.

[00:21:54]Yeah you you bought right into it. A couple of a couple of things from your book that I'd like to discuss that just Okay.

[00:22:07]These these are the things. So we've got you at the point where you're starting to question the the logic behind the the theories and the principles of yeah what you've been espousing to all the other like-minded people in the sovereign citizen movement. Just a quote from your book.

[00:22:25]It's a common thread among many sovereign citizens. They champion freedom from the government control and refuse to acknowledge its authority yet selectively tap into the very benefits and protections the system offers when it aligns with their interests. So and the hypocrisy there isn't there?

[00:22:43]We're not um I'll give you an example.

[00:22:47]>> [laughter] >> It's it's the the one I said in the book is the mortgage. You know they they espouse that the mortgage is a fraudulent contract because you know they've double dipped at the treasury and they've already been paid when you've signed it.

[00:23:02]Well, if it is a fraudulent contract, wouldn't that make you benefiting from the proceeds of crime by living in the house?

[00:23:11]Okay. Yeah, so that I I see the the logic there. Taking it through [laughter] to there.

[00:23:16]And yeah, it's like often when you put a lot of these theories just up against kind of calm skepticism, Yeah.

[00:23:24]>> not frantic, calm skepticism with a bit of, you know, knowledge around okay, how do bonds work and how do these things sort of work. Um, you you come to a conclusion of this is this theory is like a lot of theories in the uh sovereign citizen movement inherently narcissistic. Yeah. Uh, it's it's I am above uh the laws of society and therefore uh not bound to them.

[00:23:59]Um, because I know more. Because I know the secret, because I'm chosen to know the secret. Yeah.

[00:24:06]>> which is Yeah, it's like a, you know, Well, you you say narcissistic and we we see it when they pop up on the social media or you know, where it's more extreme on on the news and there there is this arrogance about them, the way that they're uh claiming they're claiming rights and and different things.

[00:24:26]Um, uh another quote from the book again, just to let let's have a have a chat about it.

[00:24:32]Another idea of being a sovereign citizen, I'm a living being, I'm not the name. Theory might be the most absurd of all. Sovereign citizens cling to this notion as if it's a golden ticket to immunity from the law or obligation. The idea is that your legal representations uh your legal name represents a corporate identity separate from your flesh and blood and self and that by refusing to identify with it, you somehow become untouchable by the law. It's a bizarre fantasy that the game crumbles under the slightest scrutiny.

[00:25:04]I read that out because in the part one you were when you were talking about what was buying into it, what got you into it. That's what you're going, "Yeah, man. That's right." Mhm. Um now you look at it and when it's it's read out like that and with the the distance and looking back you realize how how stupid it sounds. Yeah, it's um it's a dodge of accountability. Yeah.

[00:25:25]The the our names exist because we live in a society based on trust. There's no hidden advantage or disadvantage to to having a name or or whatever. We live in a society based on trust and if something goes wrong I need to be able to bring accountability to you and vice versa and without some sort of identifier that becomes pretty much impossible, which is where you see uh like the the a lot of the times in in the courts you they it's like paper terrorism. There's so much they flood the courts with so much paperwork of I'm not the name, I'm not this. That the court just goes, "This is too hard to deal with. It's not right." Like logically it's not correct, but this is like it's not worth our manpower to be able to prosecute this person for a simple mask fine when they're going to they're not making really much money off of it cuz they're hoping it's you know.

[00:26:23]Um but yeah, like the this person becomes so difficult to deal with that it they become unprofitable.

[00:26:31]Like they it's it's not sustainable to to prosecute this person for this little thing. And but then they get like the the you then label them as a a vexatious litigant. Makes perfect sense. Yeah. Um And it doesn't the the the name theory like you can't go and like stab someone or do something violent or steal or you know, and that being not the name is No, accepting the accountability for it.

[00:26:55]Yeah, it's like when it when it comes to real harm and and and damage, you're going to pay the price whether you like it or not. And and having the name there makes it easier for everyone, including you as the person who might have done the damage. It allows you a path back to well, equity. Touching on that, the last quote from your book and we'll we'll talk about that. Society relies on legal names for identification ensuring the responsibilities are clear and justice can be served. Without that shared understanding it becomes almost impossible to gauge as a full function member of society. The system depends on these conventions and denying them doesn't grant freedom, it creates chaos and isolation. That's exactly what you're talking about, wasn't it? Yeah.

[00:27:41]That's Absolutely. Yeah, the um You by by not being the name you isolate yourself away from a system that's actually there to support you. Yeah, it's there to give you options. You can be whoever you want to be. I believe that true freedom lies in authenticity.

[00:27:58]True freedom is is accountability and honesty and and living true to you.

[00:28:06]Um so and and the system is actually set up we're we're in such a we are in the lucky country because we have a system which is set up to support us as long as we make, you know, good decisions. And but you're entitled to make whatever decisions you want.

[00:28:21]>> [laughter] >> You know, if you do make good decisions, if you if you do try to work with other people, you can improve your life and you will. If you just keep showing up, you just keep doing the work. You just sometimes have to eat a humble pie.

[00:28:34]Hey, you you've convinced me that I wasn't a sovereign citizen, you were a sovereign citizen. [laughter] Have you ever thought that like the the Zoom meetings, have you ever thought about flipping it Zoom meetings why you shouldn't be a sovereign citizen? Oh, yeah, but there's not really any uh No one support groups that I'm aware of people who are coming out of the ideology. Um I I think the main thing I could tell people Yeah. is like like dealing with someone who's a drug addict. They have to be ready to step out of it. You You can't No it like when I was an addict um being sober could have been in the next room. Yeah. It was too far.

[00:29:11]Because I was I wanted I wanted the life of being an addict more than I wanted Yeah. uh healing.

[00:29:19]Um real healing. Uh so but when I decided within myself, I came to the conclusion through my own power that I was done, that I wanted to get sober, it being sober could have been on the other side of the planet, I would have made it happen. Yeah.

[00:29:34]>> And and what I think it takes as a community is when we see these people coming out of these extremist ideologies, when we see when we deal with uh people who are vulnerable in any any capacity you meet them as a human being where they are now. You don't You don't meet them for who they were, what they did.

[00:29:52]You're aware of those things, of course.

[00:29:54]Yeah. It'd be naive not to be, but forgiveness is our evolution. I I wrote about this in my in my book on philosophy which I wrote uh The Art of Evolution. One of the points in there was forgiveness is our evolution. As a society, individually, collectively, it's it is the path forward to a uh a a higher consciousness, I believe.

[00:30:17]Yeah, no, it it makes sense what you're what you're saying.

[00:30:21]And also you've got to want to want to leave it when you're you're caught caught up in it. Mhm. Once you stepped away from it and clearly like talking now and and we're we're making light of it, but it's it's an well, I don't know if you define it as an addiction, but it has the same sort of ramifications where a life's destroyed because of your compulsion for something.

[00:30:42]>> addicted >> to chaos. Yeah. Yeah. Well, >> [laughter] >> and an ide- ideology can be concerning.

[00:30:48]And the world's a pretty Yeah, wild place at the moment. And everyone's got strong strong views.

[00:30:57]With a sovereign citizen, if when you were writing it, because we've got some we've got some listener questions because people that we put out on social media and people so interested in the sovereign citizen movement.

[00:31:09]And the only sort of a snapshot we get is Desi Freeman, which is at the extreme. Yeah, it's become a bit of a martyr. Yeah. Yeah, and that you don't want that. And we want people to understand what what it's all about.

[00:31:22]But if we confronted you, and I suppose when you were in the thick of it, when you believed it, and you truly believed it, and you were promoting it, and carrying on about it. If someone confronted you and tried to argue down with logic, what would be your reaction?

[00:31:37]Um >> [laughter] >> it'll be deny, uh twist and manipulate it back into my advantage. Yeah.

[00:31:44]>> [laughter] >> That's the that's the way that it it works in the ideology. Uh everything that gets thrown into it Yeah. twisted and used. A perfect example is you're in the courts, you're arguing with the police, you're ultimately unsuccessful in the system's eyes, but you come back and you tell your story, and it gets twisted, and now you're a pioneer and a victor Yeah. of of what you've done. And it's the the echo chamber reinforces that, makes it stronger and stronger and stronger.

[00:32:15]It it sounds like those police that were you know, betting when you'd wake up to yourself seemed to have a good way of handling it. It was You it's got to take its natural course.

[00:32:24]And when you came to them, they they showed you some kindness and consideration. And And I'm sure that would have gone in part to changing your way that you looked at the authority figures.

[00:32:35]>> Well, but it became part of the reason I wanted to I went into security as well.

[00:32:40]>> I obviously like being this heavily tattooed, the police like you can't go into police because of tattoos.

[00:32:46]Which you know, I I kind of understand, you know.

[00:32:49]Some people are very terrified by looking at me.

[00:32:52]And I get it, but uh I went into security because I was like, uh I I want to to understand what it's like to actually deal with people. Yeah. Yeah. Um in in their um in their in some of their most vulnerable moments. It's part of the reason I do the crisis support work.

[00:33:12]Because it people when they are in those situations they don't need your solutions. They need your presence. They need you to be there to be kind of a container for their chaotic world.

[00:33:26]And then when they're ready they can step out of it.

[00:33:31]Security plus you're doing your your charity work. Talk us through that because they're two two extremes. Still very much you're dealing with with people. Security, you're learning how to manage a conversation, talking someone down. That's a big part of you know, policing and and also the security industry. But is it Lifeline you're you're working for? Yeah. Yes.

[00:33:54]I'm one of the crisis support workers.

[00:33:56]And and what what drove you to work in that that field or not work, you volunteer. What drove you towards that?

[00:34:05]Uh well, two things. I've had uh friends and family who have suicided. Yeah. Um I have a a tattoo on my face just here which represents um suicide.

[00:34:17]Um I myself attempted uh well tried to suicide when I was young. It was also as well so I could build my social skills. I sometimes wonder if I'm a bit autistic.

[00:34:29]I don't know. But like >> [laughter] >> I'm not going to make a I'm I'm not going to make a diagnosis here. Yeah.

[00:34:35]Yeah, thank you.

[00:34:38]I I I want to learn how to connect with people and I felt like the one thing that Lifeline teaches is connection more than solutions. You don't I don't I know from doing the training that we don't have the solution. No matter what I might think would be your way out, I don't know because the reality is you I don't know your full story from a 15-minute phone call.

[00:35:05]Um you do.

[00:35:08]And I just need to be there and to guide you through a way for you to reach your own conclusion, for you to get yourself to where you want to be. And um people people know. They know what they need to do.

[00:35:28]Um it's just sometimes it's hard and like I get that. I It This journey of accountability that I've been on is probably probably been one of the the hardest things I've I've I've done um just because of uh the vulnerability of it. Like I I I am now in a position where I I it it's scrutinized. It's it's There's a lot of things um but it's I think it's important to to allow accountability to become a real uh mainstream topic um in all aspects because you can apply uh accountability to to to relationships, to your job, to uh anything. The The energy that you put out is what you're going to get back. Um you you reap what you sow kind of thing.

[00:36:20]So, dealing with people who are on the edge has has taught me um that it's not it's not about punishment. It's not about um uh judging them. It's It's about being there and allowing them to be who they are and then uh welcoming them when they're ready, you know? And then in that connection, if you're tying that to accountability, letting them work through it to the point where they understand, well, there's one person that can fix it.

[00:36:55]That's Exactly. It comes in many forms.

[00:36:57]Sometimes like sometimes it's they need practical help and then you you can give them like references and stuff like that, but but uh ultimately they decide what the solution is for them. And that's important. I've seen it in uh uh security work as well. I I worked as a covert loss prevention officer. Yeah. Uh this was after I got out. So, friends of mine at the moment went from uh working against the man to being >> You You wouldn't You wouldn't be popular in your old circles.

[00:37:30]>> [laughter] >> No, not at all. Um Okay, so sorry, I'm just having a having a look with the covert security dress with your with your tatters. Yeah, plain plain clothes undercover officers uh in like retail settings catching people who are stealing. And um And can I just make a point on that? And I I didn't realize I I did a talk about retail theft, how big it is. Oh, yeah. It's It's huge. Down down in Victoria. Yeah, the statistics are something like one in eight or one in 10 people when they walk into a retail retail shop will steal something.

[00:38:07]Yeah. Like it's it's it's huge and it's looked at as like, "Oh, it's a victimless crime."

[00:38:13]But it's not because the the cost of those items is going to get passed on to the paying customer. Yeah.

[00:38:19]>> Because that's the way it works. Uh so, when when you when you go into a like a a shop and you steal something, the the the single mother of of three who's paying trying her best to pay for her things.

[00:38:33]>> to have to She's going to have to pay that cost.

[00:38:36]>> Yeah. Of of your theft. Um, so, yeah, and and but, you know, you come across all types of people in that work. Um, but ultimately, it's the it's it's the same every time. You you meet them where they are Yeah. and and you uh you do your best to connect with them.

[00:38:53]And ultimately, often that will result in a like they'll give you the stuff back and apologize. And it is what it is.

[00:39:00]>> Well, I I think that probably the best skill you you can have as a police officer, and I I I saw some people in in my early days and and tried to learn from from them how they could communicate with people and not challenge them. You'd have you have one particular police officer who'd be in all these uh fights and get assaulted all the time and you'd have another person that could just talk talk their way around the situation by showing empathy, care, consideration, understanding, just communicating, and and the difference that that can make.

[00:39:30]Let's talk on the serious side about the dangers of uh sovereign citizenship. And And you you talked about the the group of people, like-minded people that would come. And then you've got the uh the survivalists, the preppers type uh we can make we can make our own weapons.

[00:39:46]This is how we do this. Mhm.

[00:39:49]Does it And And I think we have become more aware of it. And uh Desi Freeman was one example. There's There's been others where there's there's Yeah, the Wanganella massacre is another one. And those those concerns um is this something that we should be wary of?

[00:40:05]Absolutely. Um, it is. I I think of I don't know enough to make this judgment, but I >> Just from your experience. From Well, from what I'm seeing is it's it's kind of a first decentralized cult that kind of exists. Yeah. There's there's no one figurehead.

[00:40:26]Uh it's it's difficult to escape because it's an echo chamber. And um Yeah, once there there is a full spectrum of people, but ultimately the entire movement itself is based in fear and disconnection.

[00:40:41]Yeah. Fear, isolation, and disconnection. Which is a is a concern if that's Yeah. Yeah. And if you're already feeling like that in your own in your own personal life, often that ideology will appeal to you.

[00:40:53]And then once you get beyond a certain point, you're you're deep into it and you're not listening to anything else.

[00:40:59]And um that can manifest in things like Desi Freeman. Cuz he he assumed, from what I gather, he he was just he's he's a predator as and a victim at the same time. There's a lot of that in the movement. There's people who are woe is me kind of attitude, but at the same time because they feel cornered, because they feel like they've got to, you know, put up a fight, they can be very reactive. And whether it comes to violence through shooting police uh or other people um to paper violence, to suing people uh with documents that like are just out there. But if you don't know what you're looking at, it's scary. You're being dragged into court by this this guy who or girl that you sense is um radical. Mhm. And it's that's terrifying. We we had uh someone on the podcast that had uh his uh ex-partner had uh was in the sovereign citizen movement and uh started to make his life uh life hell.

[00:42:10]We had him on and uh on the back of that we got fined. I got fined by the sovereign citizens with the legal document. How much how much silver did they want? I I think it was a we're up to a million dollars. A million dollars?

[00:42:22][laughter] Okay, sometimes that's yeah.

[00:42:25]Well, they're going after big big corporation. But the thing was looking at the legal documents and it got sent to us and and having call them legal documents. I I'll stop.

[00:42:36]Buzz that out. Looking at the documents a someone that's naive to that world that's never been in the legal system Mhm. you'd be cuz they use the big words and that's like the the lawyers and the solicitors use and you're thinking what's all that mean? It seems to seems to make sense. I could see a person that hasn't got the experience that you know, I might have or people that work in work here.

[00:43:01]It would be confronting. It would be worrying. If if an elderly lady got a a notice served on on her or an elderly elderly gentleman and looking like a legal document with a stamp and and all that. That could cause them a lot of fear, couldn't it? Yeah, as as like the the documents that are on that news.com article with my purple footprints and and me declaring myself a pharaoh. That's that's one side of it.

[00:43:27]That's me trying to figure out the puzzle to get this secret bank account.

[00:43:31]Um there is like some sort of convoluted logic behind it at the time. Um but there is the other side of it where paperwork gets used to bully Yeah. um and to and to yeah, like kind of manipulate your way out of situations.

[00:43:45]>> Yeah, where you just give up.

[00:43:48]That's or or decease from what they're trying to stop you saying or or doing.

[00:43:53]>> it's so confronting. Yeah. You just don't know what to do with it. You're like, what what is this? Like I need help. Yeah. This person Yeah, sorry. You've you've been in in the movement in the in mixing with the like-minded people when you're in there.

[00:44:09]What's happened with Desi Freeman, would he be looked at as a martyr in in some people within that?

[00:44:16]>> You can see in the comments sections of the uh that wellthatnews.com article, a lot of uh he is talked about as a as a martyr. He's talked about as this person he stood up, he did the right thing, or whatever, and and they have these convoluted ways of like twisting it like, "Oh, no, the police were lying."

[00:44:34]And no one has any evidence of anything, really. Yeah.

[00:44:38]You know, they've they've got their theories and you know, maybe they've got footage of him or whatever, and but it's there's it's the same thing on on the crisis lines. It's like, "I don't know the story. Yeah. I don't know what really happened.

[00:44:53]The best I'm going to be able to do is project what I think should be should should happen with it, which is what you see happening.

[00:45:01]Um So So really all you can do is meet is is meet people with connection where they are. And and um Yeah, that that I look, I fundamentally agree with I think it's I think it was ASIO that that described the sovereign citizen or designated the sovereign citizen movement as a domestic terror organization. I agree with that because it it's politically motivated and um it's dangerous um and they are willing to resort to violence to get their way.

[00:45:28]Um but there's also the other side of it, which is the paper terrorism, which which I was a part of. Um where it's it's Yes, it's so it can be so terrifying from the outset from from outside um but but in it they you feel justified. Yeah, that's what makes it dangerous as well because you believe radically in what you are doing.

[00:45:50]Um I'll go to the questions from our listeners.

[00:45:54]Um advice What advice would you give to family or friends on how to speak to someone lost in the movement. So, okay, your family, someone in a situation like you were in, how could they speak to you?

[00:46:11]Yeah, so meeting people when they're on the edge of something or or uh trying to grab them and and shake them awake is not actually going to help.

[00:46:26]It's going to make it worse. They're going to feel more connected to the movement and they're going to feel less connected to you.

[00:46:35]Um what you kind of really need to do because this person's their own person.

[00:46:41]I think as a society in general we we need to recognize that that that everyone is an individual and they live an individual life and they and they have the autonomy and the freedom to be able to to choose what they want to do with their life. Um so when you come in and you try to tell someone, "Hey, you're doing the wrong thing. This is crazy. You're part of a cult. All this sort of stuff." They're hearing you but they don't understand you. They don't really care to listen. They're they're in the ideology. They're in the echo chamber. They're listening to that right now. But often there will come a point.

[00:47:13]I think everyone gets to a point where um they reach out and they go, "Hey, I feel like I'm a bit deep in this. I feel like I need help." And and I think it's up to you to recognize when they're coming to you going you know, "Can you help me?" And not not give me your advice cuz your advice they don't know. You don't know. You don't know what advice to give them. That's incorrect. What anything that you think might work no, probably not.

[00:47:41]Okay.

[00:47:42]It's you you meet them with the solutions that they come up with themselves and you meet them with connection when they're ready to come to you because anything else that you do is going to just push them further into it, sadly. Um and and that's it's a game of patience. It's a game of of main- maintaining your connection with this person. That's the the big one. Don't don't be critical about, you know, the like you can you can question it and stuff like that, but they don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear you [ __ ] on their belief system. They uh that what people in general, in all aspects of life, I think they're looking for is is connection. They they they want to feel like they're understood. They want to feel like um that if they are in a situation where they're feeling desperate that they can come to you and that you're going to meet them with compassion and forgiveness and you're going to be a light in their darkness. That they can come to you.

[00:48:42]>> very what what you said there is very similar. We had a forensic psychologist on and talking about lone actors, but which based on extreme ideologies and and all that and then uh his view was very aligned to what you just said. You can't challenge them because that will potentially push them further there. But be there and support when when they need it. Old friends in the movement, what do they think of you now? And uh Uh sorry.

[00:49:09]I've had uh I've had people accuse me of being an undercover agent who was sent in to disrupt the movement.

[00:49:18]>> [laughter] >> I've I've been called a sellout. Like, "Oh, the media must be paying me." Well, that'd be great, but no.

[00:49:25]>> [laughter] >> You know, like there's there's so many uh I've become a bit of a uh I guess a a projection of of people's fears within the move.

[00:49:35]Um, and like I understand it. I would have done the same. Yeah, when you when you're in that world, you think that if they're not like you, they're part of the they're either a sheep or they're part of the big evil empire or the big club that you're not a part of. Um, and ultimately the the idea that there is a a big club that everyone's a part of. Like I think what people are doing and they're they're attributing to to malice what can easily be explained by people making simple mistakes because life, the system, the legal system, uh m- m- majority of industries, every industry basically, is complex. It's difficult to understand and that's why people can spend 40 years in a career and still only feel like they maybe get a little get it a little bit of how it works.

[00:50:29]Um, so there's it's the idea that there's one big club is is is not real. Um, so The p- the people that you knew and or just people that identify with it, I'm sure there is resentment for what you've done. Do you have This is not from the listener, it's from me, a genuine question. Do you have concerns for for your your self speaking out on a forum like this or any other forum that you you speak out of it? Um, absolutely. Um, I've been told I'm a whistleblower.

[00:51:01]Um Yeah. So, yeah, I do. I I I when I I received death threats when I released uh Chasing Shadows. Right. Yeah, I heard about it. I heard about that.

[00:51:11]>> I also had an attempted home invasion on my property. Th- This is all the same leak. You know, they warned me on the phone they were coming for me. Um So, yeah, there's definitely like there's a bit of resentment there, I think. But, you know, it is what it is, man. Like I I wish them kindness. I wish them healing. I wish them love and I I I hope that they can recognize me as a human being as just trying my best.

[00:51:39]Yeah.

[00:51:39]>> That's that's the reality of it and that's all I can do, you know?

[00:51:44]Yeah, well, I I think the fact that you are speaking up is there there's benefits for every everyone to understand it because there there's concerns when there's an ideology that people don't fully understand and yeah.

[00:51:58]By you coming out and and speaking speaking out Mhm. you've given me a big better understanding about it. Like I I've I've looked at you.

[00:52:07]>> [laughter] >> Yeah. I I No, well I've looked at sovereign citizens and I I saw them when I was in the police people that identified that way and I've had people say you know I haven't got the name I'm an entity and that type of type of narrative but you've given a real insight into the how how you can slip into into it. Mhm. Another question future of sovereign citizen movement in Australia. Do you see a future for it? Do you think it'll grow? Like I think my take on it is it certainly expanded on the back of COVID as as we've discussed. Like gasoline on a on an ember.

[00:52:44]>> [laughter] >> Yeah. Okay, that's that's a good way of describing it. Do you do you think it will continue on?

[00:52:50]I think it's I think um I think until until people start to connect and by this I mean regular everyday people, sovereign citizens, and also the government and police and um uh the health industry like a lot of and until accountability in all aspects of life gets to the forefront of people's way of of uh of being in a position of power. If we can hold people who are in positions of power whether it's within the movement, whether it's um as a police officer or whatever, if if accountability can be at the forefront of uh everyone's agenda Mhm. because power corrupts. You know, um, until everyday people start to see that no, we we we are honest. We are you know, we're not trying to hide anything. And we are human. We make mistakes. It's normal to make mistakes.

[00:53:55]We're not We're not perfect. The government's not perfect. Police aren't perfect. Um, no one is. Are you?

[00:54:02]I'm not. Like so then then we can move to forgiveness.

[00:54:08]Yeah. Then then I So I think it's it's accountability then forgiveness then growth. Yeah. Together as as a society and a community. And um, it's it's it's at all levels. I I want to see I want to see politicians when they make a mistake don't try to hide it.

[00:54:26]Come out. Tell me what happened. I I'd like Yeah.

[00:54:30]Well Same with anything. Same with people in the movement. I want to see people in the movement who like Yeah, I did I did take this, you know, person to court over a fence or whatever it might be. Um, uh, but you know, looking back I'm sorry about that. I I was I was radicalized. I was I I want to see I want to see accountability and then forgiveness and then growth. And I think that's the way forward. So I I think the movement will continue to grow because what feeds it is the lack of transparency. Yeah. The thing the the fact that people have questions and they're not being answered. Um, that's what that's what fuels it. And then uh then the the conspiracy theories begin.

[00:55:10]And then There there They will always be the conspiracy theorists and the outliers and and and that. But I think you're right and you know, politicians that they're our our leaders.

[00:55:20]I find it um, disappointing with politics when it seems to be if you you watch the news, you've got the the government saying one thing and then the opposition have got to come in virtually as a reflect reflex action to counter what the government said. And it's very rare that you see a bipartisan approach where they they come together.

[00:55:42]I think one way I've learned to conceptualize a politician, including myself, is I feel like a lot of politicians they get into it because they want to make a change in the world.

[00:55:56]Yeah.

[00:55:56]>> Right. And they have ideas about policies and they're going to promise things and and this and that.

[00:56:01]And that is part of campaigning and as and and it's getting in. I do believe they have every intention to fulfill those promises a lot of the time.

[00:56:09]However, I think because of the nature of society being complex, being way deeper than we think it is, they get into these positions of power and they realize "Hold on a moment.

[00:56:23]I can't do anything that I promised because it's it's just like unintelligible. Like there's so much so many variables, so much complexity.

[00:56:35]So Like like if I was running for office, the only thing I would say is look, I'll try my best.

[00:56:43]That's all I can promise is I will be honest with you and I will try my best.

[00:56:46]And that's and that's what I think really really should be the with any any position of power because it's complex.

[00:56:53]You get into you get into these positions and there are things that you didn't consider would happen. They happen. And you don't know what to do and it doesn't seem like there's a clear path because you can going to do one thing and it's going to piss off someone over there and you know, and then it's just back and forth and they get complicated But if we bring it back to accountability and yeah, the discussion we had the other day that power corrupts. I I've seen it all the time. I've seen it all the time at a small scale, a big scale. Even your going back to your compound situation, the alpha male there. I'm sure he started out with the right intentions and then all of a sudden his ego got fed because people are listening to him and he's the man and all of a sudden in that little microcosm of a community in a compound that goes skew-whiff because he starts to enjoy enjoy the power. What are you doing for yourself now? Like how are you you've had some turmoil in your life, you've had some experiences in your life.

[00:57:55]Love your poetry. You are I'm going to say this, you're the best poet we've ever had on I catch killers.

[00:58:00]>> Oh the only poet you've ever had. Well, you got to you got to got to start somewhere. Um >> Sure, there we go.

[00:58:06]You you train or anything else that you do to keep you in a good head space? Yeah, I do. I I like I said, I write relentlessly. I I bring myself uh to to to to authenticity back to authenticity constantly and it is it is work. I Speaking of accountability, in my security work, I power corrupts me. Like I'm I'm talking about you know about corrupts and all this stuff. I'm a victim of it too. Not a victim, but like I do that as well. Like sometimes when I'm kicking someone out of a bar, they might say something to me and I'm going to be like, "No, you're gone, mate."

[00:58:46]Like you know, and I'll use the power that I have to get them out even if maybe I pushed it a little too far. Like I'm I still I'm still like imperfect in the in these ways and and so I'm constantly trying to bring myself back to authenticity in anything that I do.

[00:59:04]Whether it's writing it doesn't need to be it just needs to be true for me to to pursue it.

[00:59:12]And and you know, like Obviously, the the writing is what I'm doing.

[00:59:18]To simplify the answers, that's all I do. It's it is an exploration of myself, my life, my uh how I'm into creating the world, interpreting the world. Um, yeah, and I think that that's that's what I'm here to do. So, I'm just going to keep doing that and try and be as authentic as I possibly can in my in my daily life and also in my work. Well, in terms of authenticity, the fact that you own all your little quirks, all your mistakes and all that.

[00:59:51]I I there's such a important way of approaching life and it's interesting you saying your security. Yeah, power power corrupts. I see it in police and I think all police, but good people learn to check it. But, from a police point of view and I didn't realize until you or the step away or no, even when I was in there.

[01:00:10]You're so used to telling people what to do as a police officer when store security says, "Can I check your bag or whatever?" And you think, "Who the hell I'm a policeman. What are you doing asking to check check my bag?" That's the type of thing that can creep up on you even if you you've got good intents.

[01:00:27]Intent, but you've got a lot going on in that head. No wonder you got to put put the words down in down in writing.

[01:00:36]Um, Oh, thank you. That's kind.

[01:00:37]>> Do you Do you Do you sleep?

[01:00:39]>> [laughter] >> Um, no. Well, you know, I try my best to. Yeah. Um, often often I'm still, you know, still a bit haunted by home invasion and stuff like that. So, I I a very light sleeper. I wake up at the slightest noise and and will do a little patrol of the windows and >> [laughter] >> Yeah. You know, but yeah, look, I I I do sleep, but I'm always I'm always doing something towards my my work. I'm I'm I It's just the way I want to live my life. I'm I'm very kind of orientated in that direction. So, Well, good on you for the you've certainly living a full life and I I really appreciate appreciate you coming on uh, the podcast and being so open and honest about your experience.

[01:01:24]Well, that's that's that's what I I think uh, well, what I want for myself and also what I want for everyone else in terms of their own lives is live a full life. Yeah. Live a life that you're happy to live, you know?

[01:01:37]You you get to be the one to create that.

[01:01:40]There's a lot to be said for it, isn't there? Mhm.

[01:01:43]All right. Well, Brody, I've, uh, enjoyed the chat. Uh Thank you, Gary. I really appreciate you having me on.

[01:01:49]Thank you so much.

[01:01:50]>> And, uh, you you almost had me in part one signing up for the, uh, sovereign citizenship. [laughter] But yeah, you've given a given a good in- insight and we balanced it out in part two. So, if you've listened to part one, I hope you'll listen to part two as as well. Otherwise, we might give off the wrong idea and the membership for the membership for sovereign citizenship will skyrocket. So.

[01:02:13]>> [laughter] >> You you ta- you take care. All the best for the future.

[01:02:16]>> much. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

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