The Taxi Driver Who Hunted Women | John Worboys

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-20

[00:00:00]He's the black cab rapist, one of Britain's most prolific sexual offenders. He's been denied parole, but are women still safe?

[00:00:09]>> [music] [music] >> Hello and welcome to this episode of This Much is True Crime with me, Martin Frasier, and Emeritus Professor of Criminology, David Wilson. I do like the full title. Thank you for using it, Martin.

[00:00:31]>> just say, as we're recording this on a Monday in May, I've got a jumper on cuz it's so cold outside. Well, I'm wearing a shirt with a t-shirt. I don't think it's that cold. I know it is. It's just It's unseasonably cold. There's something not right. But you're supposed to be Scottish. You're now kind of complaining about the weather and wearing a jumper.

[00:00:51]>> Down here, you can actually sort of be a little bit more relaxed about it, but no, it's flipping cold out there. Uh anyhow, that's that's our problems. And the good news, I suppose, and it's live, it's a live story at the moment, for the the victims of that dreadful black cab rapist, John Worboys, is that he has been denied parole. Yep. He's not being allowed out, or certainly moved to an open prison.

[00:01:17]Uh and I'll give you the details of what the parole board have said in just a minute. But as we speak, it's also on ITV. It's a series called Believe Me, written by Jeff Pope, which is he's one of ITV's top screenwriters. Uh it's great. It's doing good numbers in terms of ratings.

[00:01:34]Um but also, hopefully, it will mean something. It will give other women confidence to come forward because you'd like to think the police have changed. Well, you'd like to think that, wouldn't you? Um I I've watched the entire series, um Believe Me. And of course, the title of it is playing on the fact that women came forward about John Worboys reporting what had happened to them in a taxi long before 2006.

[00:02:05]He's going to be eventually convicted of crimes between 2006 and 2008, but there were women, 14 women came forward from as early as 2002 and said, "Look, these things have happened to me in the back of a black cab. I was offered champagne." He has a particular MO, but they weren't believed. There's a sense in which Believe Me is asking the viewer to recognize that women were coming forward and reporting sexual assault, being drugged, and being raped, but weren't being believed. I think that's the great thing I've noticed about the drama doc, Martin, is that as you were pointing out, Jeff Pope is one of the a really clever writer, and it's focused not on Worboys, it's focused on the women who are trying to be believed about what they are saying happened to them.

[00:02:57]>> Quite rightly. And Jeff Pope himself was really angry and astounded by when he cuz he did a lot of research on this. He spoke to Carrie Symonds, who is Boris Johnson's wife, Carrie Johnson as she is now.

[00:03:12]She was one of Worboys' victims. She was drugged by Worboys. He spoke to other of the victims, too, and piecing together exactly what they had to go through.

[00:03:21]And he's worked along with the victims.

[00:03:23]The Worboys is responsible for at least at least attacks on 105 women. I think he admits to about 90 himself. But the police think it could be much more than that as well. I mean, he is if not the certainly one of Britain's most prolific sexual offenders. Without any shadow of a doubt, he's a serial sex offender. And I think it might be helpful just here for people who haven't seen the drama documentary, but I think both of us are saying it's a it's sometimes a difficult watch. Um but it is a good use of true crime to tell a much broader story about an issue that's still affecting people within the within our country, within our culture. But effectively, War Boys, he's now changed his name to John Radford, War Boys passes the knowledge as I mean to Scott.

[00:04:17]>> 1996, he becomes a taxi driver. Yeah, he spends a couple of years doing it. And so he passes the knowledge, which means he's registered as a black cab driver.

[00:04:27]Who we trust.

[00:04:28]>> Who we trust. There's back to that playing with the title about believe me because the police were far more prepared to trust a black cab driver, registered black cab driver, as opposed to the women who were coming forward to saying that he that they had been sexually assaulted, drugged, and raped.

[00:04:46]So he passes the knowledge, he works as a black cab driver. The earliest that we know about women coming forward claiming that he had done something to them was from 2002.

[00:04:59]And effectively, 14 women between 2002 and 2006 are going to come forward and say this man attacked me in his cab. They weren't believed. Eventually, the police put two and two together. War Boys is arrested in 2008.

[00:05:19]There is going to be a trial in 2009 involving 12 women who are drugged, sexually assaulted, and raped between 2006 and 2008.

[00:05:32]And the trial takes place in 2009. War Boys is going to be given a life sentence with a minimum tariff, I think, of 8 years.

[00:05:42]>> Yeah. And then he is eventually going to come up for parole. Unbelievably, he gets parole. That causes furory again.

[00:05:50]But he gets parole because he has this Damascene conversion. That's right. To initially putting these women through it through the whole trial because he denied it.

[00:05:59]Yeah. Uh at one point he was even going to sort of, you know, take it to the criminal cases review. He was so so concerned about his miscarriage of justice. Then just a few months before he's up for parole, and of course if you're going to be up for parole, you have to admit to your crime, he says, "All right, I did it then." Yeah. And he but he even in admitting it, and we know these details partly because of the report that was written uh to support his parole case, and partly because of the controversy surrounding the fact that the parole board agreed to release him, which causes the public furory that's eventually going to have the his parole overturned.

[00:06:38]Um we know he was diminishing he diminished and discounted what he did.

[00:06:43]Uh uh I mean, I won't use the actual words that were that were used within the report, but he's constantly kind of accepting but not really accepting his responsibility for what he what he has done, which of course from in my world still makes him very risky. One of the strange things that hasn't really been given that much notice though, Martin, is that I know for a fact that he was advised about how to put forward his parole case. Unbelievably, by Levi Bellfield. Bellfield was his McKenzie man, the person advising him about what he should say, which leads to this Damascene um kind of conversion that yeah, I did do it.

[00:07:28]>> And Levi Bellfield, of course, is the notorious killer. Yeah, murders Milly Dowler, murders a a number of other women, um and of course is um one of our most notorious whole life tariff prisoners.

[00:07:43]So, the idea that you would be you would receive um you know, advice from him seems to me to be odd. Although, I did think it was I mean, I used the name Levi Bellfield.

[00:07:53]Levi Bellfield has subsequently changed his name and we also know that uh John Warboys has changed his name to John Radford. But, you know, that isn't the first time that Warboys played with his identity.

[00:08:09]Because, you know, prior to even at the time he was passing the knowledge in 1996, he was also working as a male stripper.

[00:08:21]He was also appearing in pornographic movies. He was also directing pornographic movies. And the persona that he used as a male stripper always seems to me to be have been really important because he was called Terry the Minder. And you know, there are lots of photographs of Warboys in this guise as Terry the Minder. And you know, what is that? And the And the the kind of guise that he used prior to taking off his clothes, of course, was of this kind of virile uh sexually attractive um protective um man that's going to be irresistible to women. And I think that uh you know, there there is something there about his psychology, I think. Well, the psychiatrists and psychologists who've been looking after him in prison or trying to um explain, you know, what drove him to do these things, um they're quite convinced there's no mental illness at play here. Maybe that's something that we'll come back to because to me it sounds there is some sort of mental illness there, whether it's narcissism or something. There's something going on with him. But, just to go back to the very start. So, he passes uh the knowledge in 1996. He's a cabby. And uh these attacks take place in the naughties, so 2000 up to 2008.

[00:09:39]Um he's uh his his modus operandi is to say that um he picks basically he um he drives in the early hours of the morning. He looks for women on their own who are vulnerable. He offers them a lift uh either um for free or a a discounted rate, but gets them into the car and says um It's your lucky night.

[00:10:00]>> having a good night. Uh and you know, he shows them what looks like a bag of notes saying I've won 40,000 lb in a casino. Uh I've got a bottle of champagne here. Would you like to celebrate with me?

[00:10:13]Uh and of course, what the the girls don't know, what the women don't know is that he has spiked the drink. And what is this the days before Rohypnol and the date uh drug came out. And what's so interesting, and I think the drama, believe me, does this really well, is that you can tell the women being offered this drink don't want it.

[00:10:35]Uh and it's just his persistence.

[00:10:38]It's just their kind of politeness that means that often they will be they will take the the so-called champagne, which is actually spiked with over-the-counter drugs or prescription drugs as opposed to Rohypnol. But I found that part really interesting in the drama because you kind of can sort of put yourself in that position. Would you after a night out accept a glass of champagne from the black cab driver? I thought that was really really interesting. But if we come back in a second to your statement about mental illness and narcissism and what might be driving him, let's come back to that once we mention the True Crime Channel because they are our sponsor. And if you are interested in true crime, and why wouldn't you be, you know, you're going to love the True Crime Channel. Are you not? You know, it's authoritative, it's led by experts. There's some really good people on that channel. I always mention shout out to Donald McIntyre, the investigative journalist, but also Dr. Julia Shaw, who's a wonderful psychologist who'll present on the channel as well. And you like Judge Judy. Let me stop you there cuz I know uh two people who like it just like us.

[00:11:53]This episode is sponsored by The True Crime Channel available on Sky Freely, Freeview, Freesat, and Virgin. And don't forget ITVX. Must never forget ITVX.

[00:12:05]>> [laughter] >> Now, True Crime Channel, where real life turns criminal, expert-led, investigative, and authoritative. Uh they may even have like professor of criminology. I know. Well, they do, and I'm very uh pleased to be on The True Crime Channel. I always say um if you're interested in true crime, you're going to love The True Crime Channel. Um my own series is called Murder UK, but quite apart from that, they've got some wonderful presenters, people who actually have walked the walk as well as can talk the talk. Like Donald McIntyre, who is Donald McIntyre, Dr. Julia Shaw springs to mind. Really interesting series. Donald, as you know, is an investigative journalist. Julia, a psychologist. You know, these are people who know their stuff, and they are presenting programs on The True Crime Channel. And that's why I think it's so good. And you and they're on at nighttime. During the day though, it's Judge Judy. You love Judge Judy.

[00:13:01]>> Now, each episode on The True Crime Channel, especially at nighttime, um is standalone, which is a great thing about it. By and large, The True Crime Channel is about British cases, isn't it? And my own series is called Murder UK, for example. True Crime Channel, thank you so much for being our sponsors. Uh back to this episode. So, we're back with War Boys, and as I said before, um the prison uh medics, psychiatrists, psychologists don't believe he has a mental illness.

[00:13:31]I think they're right. I don't think You know >> Was he just devious? Uh well, you know, at the end of the day you mentioned narcissism. Narcissism is not a mental illness.

[00:13:41]Um and I think I was brought up in a family of very powerful women and I learned very early on not to think of rape as about being about being about sex. I learned that rape was about an expression of power. And you know, that's what War Boys was interested in.

[00:14:00]War Boys was simply interested in demonstrating a kind of form of power over the women that he picked up.

[00:14:07]>> He claimed he did it as a reaction to the death of his mother.

[00:14:10]Oh, that you know, they're always You will always discover that offenders, if they don't take responsibility for what they've done, will have some excuse um in their back pocket that tries to explain what they've done without realizing it's no explanation at all.

[00:14:26]You know, we Sadly, we all have mothers who are going to die. We're all going to die ourselves. So, you know, the idea that somehow that would be an explanation. I used to get really angry when pedophiles would say to me that the reason that they sexually abused children was because they had been sexually abused themselves in their childhood as if that was somehow an explanation for their behavior. And you'd point out that lots of people get sexually abused but don't go on to abuse children. And indeed, many people who have been abused in their childhood would say, "Well, that's why I would never ever behave like that way to a child." So, offenders come up with all kinds of excuses that don't really explain their behavior at all. And all that we see, in my view, from War Boys is his determination to exercise a graceful form of power over women that wouldn't have been interested in him in any other aspect of their lives.

[00:15:28]There are a few scandals in this case, but probably the biggest one is the the way the police failed spectacularly to to get him. Despite being told several times by victims what had happened to them, they weren't believed.

[00:15:43]No, and And the police didn't link it together. And so there was a lack of linkage, there was an inability to accept what was You know, the women that were coming forward prior to 2006 weren't coming up with some kind of bizarre story. They were able to provide evidence, they were credible, there there were ways of checking what they had said. You know, it isn't simply a question of just being believed, it's a question of the police not doing their job that would have allowed them to have tested out what it was the women were saying. There was enough evidence to have been able to demonstrate what what they were saying was the truth. War Boys gets a slight pass from the police because of course on one occasion he drove one of his victims to the police station, albeit that there was a witness who said immediately to the police, "Hang on a minute, she's not drunk, she's being drugged." But the police again didn't interview that person, didn't take a statement, didn't get a number of the the cab, but there was also CCTV evidence that would have allowed the police to have connected these stories up. When they did test for what was in those women's bloodstreams, because of course they could do a chemical test to see if what what they they were claiming to have been drugged, what was in their system, um what they found were prescription drugs, temazepam in particular, or nightol. And but they never said they never said to the women, "Oh, well, there was temazepam in your system."

[00:17:21]They just simply went, "Oh, well, there was no Rohypnol in their system, therefore you couldn't have been date raped."

[00:17:27]>> And it was the it was the police themselves who decided to drop those cases, not the CPS. Yeah, the police themselves took it upon them to to do that. Also, when it gets to the trial, and again, uh it went to trial because Warboys denied it and forced the women to go through all this. Um and the drama, you know, uh really kind of exposes this. The way that the uh that Warboys' barristers um attack the women uh pretty much into tears. Uh and I don't think it's just the Warboys case, but this goes on a lot of rape cases where it's suggested that it's the women at fault. That they're not the victims, that or or they asked for it themselves because they got so drunk. Uh you know, there's an element of obviously, everybody's entitled to a defense.

[00:18:13]And obviously, again, if you're going to defend Warboys, you have to attack what's he's being accused of by focusing on the story that's being told by his victim.

[00:18:26]Now, uh going to court at the best of time, and I've only done this as an expert witness, is very stressful. And if you're constantly being attacked by the prosecutions by the defense saying, "What you're saying is a pack of lies." And, you know, they're exposing aspects of your private life because they've gone through your mobile phone records or they've gone through what's on social media about you, it is incredibly intrusive.

[00:19:01]And therefore, inevitably, there's sometimes what's called um victim um attrition.

[00:19:08]Women who will report rape don't want to go through it and therefore, you know, the numbers of reported rapes has increased, but the numbers of people going forward to court charged with rape rape prosecuted for rape are still incredibly low and ultimately, you know, what do we what do we know? We know about 3% of of all those women who will report rapes, 3% of those reports of rape will lead to a prosecution of rape. One boy's victims had such a dreadful time with the police that they said that the way they were treated by police was worse than the original assault itself. Well, you know, I want us to talk about some of this, Martin, because both of us are are in the media and here's a drama documentary, a true crime drama documentary, presenting something that seems to me to be really important. And one of the things that we don't see on all those observational documentaries that exist about the police, you know, um murder 24/7, 24 hours in police custody, we don't see a kind of approach that we've been describing that seems to me by the police interviewing women who are accused of rape. We don't see the kinds of things that we see in the drama documentary, in those so-called warts and all observation documentaries. And I think for our Patreon members, I would be really keen to just talk about what do those observational documentaries about the police do or not do? For me, increasingly, they seem like a bit of PR. Well, we [clears throat] will talk about that on Patreon. Um yeah, I've I've got views on that as well because I presume uh they rely on what the police allow them to get, basically. It's the It seems to be I mean, I may well be wrong, but I get a funny feeling that, you know, if the police don't want you to see it, then it's not allowed to be used. And think about things There's a body camera, videos, all those all that evidential stuff that they um they they collect.

[00:21:27]>> Uh but we don't Let's keep that for Patreon cuz I I want to carry on with with Warboys in particular because two of his his victims Uh And again, this is such a strange case, Warboys.

[00:21:38]Fascinating case, actually, because it becomes a landmark case. Uh with two of the victims, they successfully sued the Met police. Yeah. Um, after claiming the officers seriously mishandled initial reports they gave in 2003 and 2007.

[00:21:55]Um the judgment, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled the police failures breached the victims' rights under Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights. That's the right to be free from torture or inhumane treatment or degrading treatment, as well. So, they actually changed it so that the police in future had to take this more seriously. Had to actually up their game big time. So, they'd be sued. A big shout out to a lawyer called Harriet Wistrich, who is one of the heroes in this case. But also a big shout out to the Human Rights Act because so often the Human Rights Act gets caricatured as being, you know, an offender's charter.

[00:22:38]Well, here's the Human Rights Act being used to support to support victims. And you're right, as a consequence of those women that came forward to say And and and they're actually the the main focus of, believe me, as a result of them coming forward and suing the police and winning and winning that case, um the the Human Rights Act can be used now to protect victims in these kinds of circumstances.

[00:23:05]And And of course, that was on the that only is the prelude in one sense, isn't it, to the being a judicial review on the decision to give War Boys parole.

[00:23:16]>> And it was the same women who went through the judicial review, which is very tough to actually win one of those cases, and Carrie Symonds, Boris Johnson's now wife, uh did the press for them. So, the three of them, these two women, uh who are anonymous, and Carrie Symonds, who, you know, waived her right to anonymity, uh they went through the judicial review, uh kept him behind bars, kept him in jail, and those women were successful. And also, again, in terms of, you know, changing the way we look at these cases, not just the first one about the European Court of Human Rights and um suing the police, uh this was the way the Parole Board works as well was changed after this in the sense that they had to um declare and explain their decisions. Yeah. It was no longer the secret sect of victims wondering, "Oh, I don't know what's going on or why has this person been allowed out or not been allowed out." They have to explain now exactly what measures they've taken and why they came to that decision. And it was a bizarre decision. It was, for me, a bizarre decision when you saw the dossier of evidence that was placed before the Parole Board on which there there was a decision that War Boys was no longer posed a risk to women if he was released back into the community.

[00:24:33]And you just kind of shook your head in disbelief. Um of course, they would lose the judicial review, and the head of the Parole Board at the time was a man called Nick Hardwick. He um was uh he resigned. I'm not quite sure if he jumped or if he was pushed, but he resigns, and there were changes in the way that the Parole Board would operate.

[00:24:55]Now, that's quite important uh for a number of reasons because Warboys is going to be convicted again of four further charges in 2019, some of which predate charges that were some of which predate the original charges.

[00:25:11]>> More women came forward. More women came forward.

[00:25:14]And Warboys on that sentence that he receives in 2019 has literally as we're recording just been refused parole again and Carri Symonds has spoken very publicly about that, hasn't she?

[00:25:30]>> refused parole and as I said at the start it's a live case because he still has several days, I think 21 days to appeal that, but it looks like he's not going to appeal it certainly. Um his um uh the psychologist uh you know, examining him on his behalf so bought for by his lawyer or or some funds I suppose, even she agrees that perhaps now is not the time for it.

[00:25:53]Although he has shown remorse uh although he has been uh an exemplary model prisoner um done everything he's been asked, uh there's still questions not least between the two people who deal with him on a day-to-day basis in jail, his offender manager and another prison uh worker who say they can't be confident that uh he wouldn't reoffend again or he's not a danger to women to the public. So, he's been he's been denied parole. Uh this is what the parole board said and again we only be able to see these things now because of what these women managed to achieve in changing the way uh they're transparent basically.

[00:26:33]And they said Warboy continues to represent a high risk of committing further serious sexual offenses upon women. Although he accepts he does not currently meet the test for release.

[00:26:45]He claimed uh to feel enormous regret, remorse, and shame towards the women he has harmed and their families and friends. The board also refused to recommend a transfer to an open prison.

[00:26:57]Now, Carrie Johnson, as you said, who was Carrie Simmons at the time, she was drugged by Warboys. He picked her up. She'd been at Chelsea nightclub waiting for the night bus.

[00:27:08]He does his usual MO. Oh, hello. How are you? Where are you off to? Oh, I'm trying to get home to Southwest [clears throat] London. Oh, I just happen to be going there. That's you know, that's where I live.

[00:27:19]For your 5 lb fare I'll give you a lift.

[00:27:21]And so he drugged her on the way.

[00:27:24]We don't think any no sexual act took place, but he drugged her on the way.

[00:27:29]>> [clears throat] >> She was She was I suppose convinced that by coming forward and waving her right to anonymity, she would help in raising the profile and get other women to come forward and indeed that did happen. So after this latest parole board being denied, she said that the relief I feel knowing that he will remain behind bars is hard to put into words. Women and girls across Britain are safer as a result of this decision. Well, I think she's absolutely right. And one of the things that she's spoken about publicly, Martin, is that when she first was given the drugged glass of champagne, she surreptitiously poured it on the carpet of the taxi. And when Warboys realized that she hadn't come unconscious, he then forces her to drink a shot of I think vodka.

[00:28:27]But by then and when she got home, her mother was able to carry Carrie Simmons' mother was able to intervene and >> Well, she was violently sick.

[00:28:38]>> She was violently sick and she put that down at the time to the medication that she was on in terms of some underlying problem that she had. But yeah, Carrie Symonds, like Harriet Wistrich, like the two women that came forward, you know, they're really really incredibly brave.

[00:28:57]And one of the things about the risk assessment that you've just been describing now in relation to those various offender managers or prison staff saying, you know, he still poses a risk. Remember, way back in 2018, one of the decision one of the bases on which they were saying he should be released fro- from custody on parole at that point was the fact he had done the sex offender treatment program in prison, the SOTP.

[00:29:28]And yet the SOTP was demonstrated to actually make sex offenders more likely to commit further sexual offenses as opposed to less likely to commit further sexual offenses. And thank heavens that the SOTP no longer takes place in jail. So, how you test somebody out in relation to their risk is a very complex process. And of course, you have to, in my view, er on the side of caution as opposed to on the side of yeah, let them out and see if it's okay.

[00:30:04]Carrie Symonds, uh Carrie Johnson as she is now, also um did a big interview with the Daily Mail um just a few days ago after hearing that uh Warboys was not going to be moved to an open prison, no getting parole.

[00:30:17]Uh and this time she's she's going for the police. Really really critical of the police.

[00:30:23]>> Um and she says the misogyny the victims of Warboys experienced was eye-watering.

[00:30:28]I wish I could say things feel better now and I'm not sure they do. She says, "I don't have all the answers, but I really hope ITV's believe me acts as a wake-up call. It feels as though we're going to have to make a hell of a lot of noise if things are ever going to truly improve. And she revealed that two of her closest friends had been raped themselves in the past eight years, and both went to the police.

[00:30:51]Both were treated with no empathy, no respect, and their cases were never properly followed up.

[00:30:58]Well, and you know that So, two things. Jeff Pope's next drama documentary is going to be about the murder of Sarah Everard.

[00:31:09]Again, a young woman on the streets of London, um who is going to be uh murdered by um a metropolitan a serving metropolitan police officer. And I kind of feel here we've got the best of true crime, haven't we? Because it's holding a mirror up to society and saying, "What should we do to prevent this kind of behavior happening in the future?" And the last time we saw a drama documentary having that kind of impact on the public policy was when we discussed another ITV drama documentary called Mr. Bates versus the Post Office.

[00:31:49]Let's hope it does some good because, again, you look at the figures, and this is, albeit applying just to to London and Greater London, I'm sure it could probably be extrapolated to other big cities around the UK.

[00:32:01]Uh I despaired when I read this, Professor. Sexual offenses by taxi and cab drivers, as we speak, have tripled in the past 3 years.

[00:32:12]The Met Police recorded 70 arrests resulting in charges against taxi or minicab drivers between January 2023 and December 2025 in Greater London. So, in 2023, there were 10 offenses. In 2024, 26 offenses, and in 2025, 34 offenses.

[00:32:33]Seventeen of them were committed against passengers during journeys.

[00:32:39]What's changed? Well, well, nothing. And what's changed, I think, is a willingness to report rape. Um Louise Casey in 2023 came out with her report.

[00:32:49]She said the Met's culture was institutionally racist, misogynistic, and homophobic. Well, I think the only thing I can say that's changed is a willingness for people to come forward.

[00:33:00]What definitely hasn't changed is even if people are willing now to report these matters, they are simply not take being taken forward through to charging and then prosecution. And so, yeah, we're we're still back at the the the time of you know, um Believe me.

[00:33:23]Uh and also, just just on this, I mean, this is so quite depressing, the numbers, but just in terms of women who do report rape, there are more than 13,000 sexual offenses offense cases awaiting trial.

[00:33:36]Wow.

[00:33:37]>> More than 13,000.

[00:33:38]>> Wow. The Is that England and Wales?

[00:33:40]That's England and Wales Crown Court. Uh and roughly, it's right about 2 years you have to wait for it to come to trial now. Well, 2 years is a figure I recognize from looking at the Scottish figures. The Scottish figures would be also be about women who report rape would wait a couple of years before anything appeared at trial. But in Scotland, it's the same issue we've been discussing.

[00:34:02]There are number The number of reports of rape have risen, but not in term not um there's still an incredible uh paucity of people being charged and then uh prosecuted at court. But 2 years for the were in England and Wales or Scotland still seems to be the figure prior to anything going to trial. I'd like to think if, you know, if it was a woman who was a justice secretary, if it was a woman who was the prime minister, if it was a woman who was the home secretary, things might change. Haha.

[00:34:33]But when you actually look back into the Warboys history, it was home secretary Theresa May that threw a spanner in the works, that was siding with the police, and not wanting it to go further forward when she was the home secretary. Uh the police themselves actually challenged the the award, the compensation awards that was given out.

[00:34:54]>> Yeah.

[00:34:55]Yeah. Saying well, this this this this woman we have to pull resources from such as the fraud squad. Yeah.

[00:35:01]>> [gasps] >> Do they not read the room, these people?

[00:35:03]Oh well, no.

[00:35:06]I'm afraid they don't. Um uh and so it doesn't actually, you know, institutional cultures like the police are very difficult to challenge. And they're certainly difficult to challenge if they allow themselves to be presented as the only game in town, and they don't uh suffer from having to be accountable to the courts, except on this occasion because of the Human Rights Act, they are now accountable in relation to not doing their job properly in tying up all these allegations that were made to them in terms of not investigating properly, in terms of not believing those women.

[00:35:50]Well, well done to Carrie Johnson. Well done to those two anonymous women who have changed the law, and hopefully changed the way that um you know, we look at we look on on these cases. Uh more women need to come forward, they need to be believed as we know, uh which is the the title of the drama.

[00:36:07]>> And well done to Harriet Wistrich and Jess Pope. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and you know, people say, you know, what can television drama do? Well, we've seen what it can do in the past. Let's hope that this is a a force for good. I'm sure it will be. And before we finish, you're going to be appearing in The Borders soon, aren't you? At the Borders at the Borders Book Festival on June the 13th, I think it is, talking about the book I wrote with my wife, Fiona Phillips, and her Alzheimer's.

[00:36:37]So, I haven't been to Melrose before. If anybody's going there, please come and say hello. But you don't want me to come.

[00:36:42]>> I'd love to chat with you. Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm not paying for it.

[00:36:46]>> [laughter] >> Please.

[00:36:48]You don't need to pay for me to come, but you might want to give me a free ticket to get into your event. Well, I don't know if I get free tickets, and it's like you know, I've got to sell books.

[00:36:58]>> [laughter] >> Uh but listen, thank you for watching. If you've liked what we have been speaking about and down through our series, please click subscribe, you know, if you're on YouTube. Also, thank you very much to our sponsors, the True Crime Channel.

[00:37:13]>> We always like the True Crime Channel.

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