Why Point Systems CAN’T Fix Your Draw Odds | Fresh Tracks Weekly Ep. 129

Added: 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]All right, Mike B here. Welcome back to Fresh Tracks Weekly. I'm filling in for Marcus this week. We got a good one for you. We'll catch you up on what the crew's been up to, and then Randy and Marcus are diving into a topic that I think every western hunter should know about. This past weekend, Jason and I competed in a rifle match here in Southwest Montana. There were some highs, some lows. We had a few stages where everything came together and a few where things definitely didn't go according to plan, but that's part of the fun of it. We learned a ton, had a great time, and most importantly, we brought the cameras along. So, if you've ever wondered what happens when a couple of hunters jump into the precision rifle competition world, you'll get to see that firsthand in an upcoming video.

[00:00:41]Meanwhile, Marcus and Cara have spent the last couple weeks in Slovenia chasing marble trout and exploring the country. I've only been able to follow along through Snapchat and some photos, but it looks like an incredible adventure, and they will talk about that more next week in Fresh Tracks Weekly.

[00:00:57]Last week, Randy competed in an NRL hunter match with a setup that probably raised a few eyebrows. While many competitors are running extremely expensive rifles and advanced ballistic systems, Randy showed up with a factory how rifle, a looold VX6 rifle scope, and a simple CDS dial. It's a great reminder that practical field shooting skills still matter a whole lot regardless of how much technology is bolted onto your rifle. We also wanted to feature you in one of our upcoming videos. If you like to participate, upload a short video clip of you or someone you know enjoying public lands. Whether it's picking wild flowers, walking your dog, chasing up birds, hiking with a family member, or packing out a bull elk, we'd love to see it. Please don't send any kill shots as we will not use those in this video. You can upload the video in the link in the bio. Um it's a Google form, so you have to sign into Google to upload. And if you don't have a Google account or don't want to sign into Google, just go ahead and send us an email with your video attached. Okay. And this one I'm super excited about and I hope you guys are as well. On Friday, July 31st, we're hosting our first ever community event with Mountain Tuff in their parking lot.

[00:02:08]We're calling it the freezer burn party and we're asking people to bring a package of thawed ground venison or steaks. We'll have multiple Trager cooking stations to cook on. Uh please only bring enough for yourself and a friend. This is not a donation event. Um we'll provide the fixins. There will be free beer from Bridger Brewing and raffles that benefit RMEF. It starts at 4 PM and we'd love to see you there. And if you plan to come, please RSVP via the Facebook event link in the description.

[00:02:38]For Ry's garage sale this week, we have a couple of Montana decoys up for sale.

[00:02:42]These are genuine show used decoys from past hunts. If you want to purchase these, visit shop.freshtracks.com and know that the all the proceeds from this will be donated to the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.

[00:02:56]for a little bit of news this week. Um, last Friday an executive order was signed removing restrictions on off-road vehicles on federal lands that have been in place since the 70s. Next week, Randy and Marcus will discuss this further in their deeper dive segment. But this week, the boys are discussing a question that just about every western big game hunter has experienced in the past. Why are tags becoming so hard to draw? The answer might surprise you. So, let's get right into it. Today we're talking about why you can't draw a tag.

[00:03:30]>> Well, part of that is the tags I apply for, I probably am not going to draw anytime soon.

[00:03:34]>> Yeah, I guess just in general, I think uh it's the season. Is that what you're about to say?

[00:03:40]>> Yeah, I was about to say it. Tis the season for >> draw results come out and people, >> you know, they're they're upset.

[00:03:48]>> Yeah. And and especially with things like the big three, as we call them, moose, sheep, and goat. Yeah, >> those are, you know, few and far between and in high demand and it's very difficult to draw a permit.

[00:04:00]>> Very difficult.

[00:04:02]>> That being said, I did uh just draw a Mountain Goat permit. So, I'm one of the >> After how many years though?

[00:04:08]>> 25 years.

[00:04:08]>> 25 years. Yeah.

[00:04:10]>> And I and applying for a very e I mean, compared to most districts, one of the easiest districts to draw. Right.

[00:04:16]>> Yeah.

[00:04:17]>> You just wanted to go. So you picked the district with the easiest draw oper highest draw probably.

[00:04:23]>> They don't kill big goats there.

[00:04:24]>> No. Well, but >> cuz you wanted to go.

[00:04:27]>> I want to go. Yeah.

[00:04:28]>> A lot of people say, "No, if I'm going, I want the best of the best."

[00:04:33]>> Yeah, >> I get that. So, >> but probably the thing that, you know, last night Utah's draw results came out.

[00:04:41]And again, I didn't I didn't draw in Utah. I didn't expect it, right? odds are really really low.

[00:04:46]>> And pretty soon we'll have moose, goat, sheep, and bison results in Wyoming, followed by elk results, male deer, pong horn. All the results are coming in across the west.

[00:04:58]>> And when people don't draw their tag, you hear a lot of we need a point system, we need this, we need to not let these people apply, we need to so >> yeah, or different changes to resident versus non-resident. There's a lot of arguments about >> how to fix the system so you can draw the permit that you want, >> right?

[00:05:22]>> But as you were talking about populations for a lot of these animals and the tag numbers that go along with that have declined from their previous highs. And I think it's important to mention like the wave of like we >> as humans when we colonized the west we declined all the wildlife way down like we there you know the numbers of deer, elk, moose, sheep, goat, we knocked everything >> way way way down and then did a pretty dang good job of bringing them back. And so that that is like a important part of the story I think is like we you know it's been worse before for sure. But we showed that we're capable of bringing species back through the North American model of wildlife conservation >> and of instituting all these these rules, checks, balances and you know >> and a lot of effort on wildlife agencies and you know dedicated people to reestablish a lot of the populations through introductions and through just proper management and so forth.

[00:06:20]>> But since that peak >> Mhm. in a lot of well not everything but in and it's and it's spec area specific right but I think what our lens we often look at Montana and in Montana you look at >> moose sheep and goat and from our highs of permits essentially that and and populations post >> you know pre-1900s I guess but like so like >> we're declining again >> right we we kind of peaked out around 2000 to 2005 >> y >> somewhere in there. And uh so I used to keep track of all this stuff and then I kind of lost track of it, but a guy out on our hunt talk forum went out and grabbed the data. Uh and it's very similar to what my sheets used to look like. Um Montana Moose Eggs 20 years ago in 2006, we gave away 610. This year we gave away 312.

[00:07:17]For mountain goat in 2006, we gave away 293 tags. This year 180. And sheep is the really big decline. We gave away 332 sheep tags in 2006. This year 105. Less than a third.

[00:07:33]>> Right?

[00:07:34]>> So a lot of people uh seem to be dumbfounded that they didn't draw a tag.

[00:07:40]Well, I took fractions in the third grade. You have a numerator and a denominator.

[00:07:46]And the wildlife population is the numerator. The number of applicants and hunters applying for tags is the denominator.

[00:07:58]If you really want to increase probabilities, you have to keep the numerator constant or growing.

[00:08:06]But we've we've used point schemes and all these other get my legislator to do that, get my commission to do this, and all these things that we say we want or that we lobby for do nothing to put more critters in the hills.

[00:08:23]>> Yeah. Basically, it it seems that people like to often argue about >> the things that Yeah. It's like the scarcity mindset that you talked about where it's like, how do I get how do I get what's left? How do I get of this the smaller shrinking pie? How do I get >> what's mine?

[00:08:40]>> Whereas, you know, it might be well you'd probably be well more well off if you argued for, >> you know, advocated for habitat, advocated for more animals on the landscape. And um and I think it's also important like habitat is a big thing for most of our species and it certainly is for moo, sheep, and goat. But there those three species also have a lot of other unique >> problems with them that have probably caused more of the decline >> than habitat solely. Yeah.

[00:09:09]>> I mean moose I think would probably be the most affected habitat. But when you think about sheep and goats, >> they're alpine habitat, you know, especially mountain goats, right?

[00:09:18]>> Alpine habitat specialists, big horn sheep as well for their summer range.

[00:09:21]They might be more in the foothills and have a lot more habitat issues on their winter range.

[00:09:25]>> Yeah. But it's those factors of disease uh with both sheep and goats are two of the biggest ones.

[00:09:33]>> Y >> and then also for moose you have ticks are what kill a lot of moose and they have different disease pathogens and arterial worm.

[00:09:42]>> Yep.

[00:09:42]>> That are you know there there's a lot of >> unfortunately a lot of things that are working together to decrease these populations.

[00:09:52]>> Right. But to your point when you start when you said going back to the homesteader days of the 1800s from there to the turn of you know the 1900s to the early 2000s there was this abundance mindset that let's put more on the hills more in the hills more in the hills and somewhere along the way we got into more of a mindset of well I need mine how do I fight and come up with a a system or a strategy Y so that I I I at least get mine.

[00:10:25]>> Mhm.

[00:10:25]>> So somewhere along the way, we went from the majority of us being abundance thinkers to a lot of us now being complacent and just look my hunting days might come to an end. I'm it's I got to get mine and not keeping our eye on the abundant side. And those three species you talk about are such a great illustration of that. Yeah, they the their numbers are down, but we can if I in preparation for this, I went and did the the average between 2004,5 and six >> for male deer and pong horn. And I did this average 20 24 25 26 of population numbers. I didn't do tag numbers because it's hard to sort out what's buck tags and do tags, >> right? But if you take the population numbers with the exception of pong horn in Nevada, mu deer and pong horn in Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Wyoming, Montana are all down more than 30%.

[00:11:29]>> In some cases 50%.

[00:11:31]So if our numerator is the number of tags and that's driven by the harvestable surplus, >> right?

[00:11:41]The harvestable surplus is a function of the total numbers on the landscape.

[00:11:47]So if we want more tags and more opportunity, we aren't going to get there by coming up with elaborate schemes to get rid of this person or that person or raise the price to price people out >> or for that matter just really anything with hunting regulations in general, right? Like we like hunting regulations. It's important to have those arguments about hunting regulations, but the state agencies have been doing this long enough that they're not stupid. They know what they're doing. They are able to maintain populations or keep populations growing through the number of tags allocated. We can argue about how we do that and but that's mostly hunter satisfaction with all of these species. Yep.

[00:12:31]>> It doesn't have a whole lot to do with the population. Nope. Although there is a few examples with mountain goat which I can get into later but um for the most part that's this hunter satisfaction like >> I I think it'd be interesting to survey hunters. I think people who are in the know and involved might have you know realize how much of habitat and climate are really your massive driving forces behind populations >> by far. But very often when you talk to people, they're complaining about the amount of non-resident hunters or the this amount of hunters in general or whatever. And that's that's the main issue. And again, that's a hunter satisfaction issue. It's important, but it's doesn't have anything to do with the populations, >> right?

[00:13:15]>> Very little. I mean, I shouldn't say nothing, but it's very little in the scheme of if you had a pie chart and like the number of or the proportion of things that are affecting the total population, right? Hunter harvest is very very small in that in that scheme of things because our biologists and managers know what they're doing.

[00:13:30]They're not going to implement a season that's going to decrease the population unless that's the goal which is another can of worms that we don't need to get into right now.

[00:13:38]>> So if you look at pong horn and milde iconic species of the west I went to every one of those four states and did the research of what were the primary causes for decline in the population.

[00:13:52]Why? Why did Colorado male deer numbers and prongghorn numbers both drop more than 35%.

[00:13:58]Nevada, why did male deer drop more than 35%.

[00:14:04]You can go through any of those. Every one of them had the two same primary causes. Habitat decline due to human pressures and drought slash whatever you want to call it. Some people, you know, we've been now in a for my adult life.

[00:14:21]So the last 40 years we have been in a drought.

[00:14:24]>> Yeah.

[00:14:25]>> So a lot of people want to say, "Oh, you're just trying to say that's climate change." I don't care what the hell term you want to put on it. Don't tag Don't Don't put some political tag on something so you can ignore it.

[00:14:39]>> Okay? I don't care if you want to call it long-term drought, climate change. It doesn't matter to me what you call it, >> but the landscape is changing rapidly.

[00:14:49]>> Yeah. It's undeniable. I mean, you look at the Great Basin, like you said, the long-term drought, it's insane. And it it's compounded by a lot of other things like invasive annual grasses and, you know, cheat grass coming in and >> disrupting the landscape and fire ch changing how that's all taking place.

[00:15:05]And so, there's a lot of factors that compound, but the biggest thing is warming temperatures, right? And when you think about when I go back to mountain goats and moose, those are the two I mean that's probably the biggest factor in the declines in both of those populations as well. With moose, you have the, you know, cold temperatures historically will kill these ticks off, right?

[00:15:25]>> In some of these populations, they're having 70% mortality on their calves because of winter tick, >> right?

[00:15:30]>> And then in mountain goats, they die of heat stress if they don't have sufficient snow to cool off in in the summer. They they are these incredibly insulated animals. They have a ton of fur. Like they die of heat stress and then they also get disease as well which you know like all of these factors compound and then >> you you know a mountain goat getting pneumonia is going to be compounded by having other stressors and other you know aspects on the landscape and alpine vegetation is changing as well.

[00:15:59]>> Yeah. And so all of that changes the quality and quantity of the habitat.

[00:16:03]Right. And habitat's not just forage.

[00:16:05]It's other things you mentioned. How can I regulate my body temperature? How can I avoid disease? How can I avoid predators? How can I habitat is all these things? But when things are changing because of human pressures, >> you know, I don't care if you want what human pressure you want to look at, just year round recreation in their in where they live. Yeah. It might be subdivisions, it might be roads, highways, it might be energy development, whatever.

[00:16:33]>> Human pressures are adding more and more to this. So where a lot of people say, "Well, I guess I should just give up." No, we have groups out there that are doing something about it. And if it wasn't for these groups, these numbers were talking about would probably be even worse.

[00:16:52]>> Mhm.

[00:16:52]>> So, as hunters, we can join these groups. We can donate money. We can go and volunteer. We We can go get our hands dirty on a project. We can go do a goat survey. We there's no shortage of things to do to help put more wildlife on the landscape.

[00:17:12]>> Mhm.

[00:17:13]>> Because if we continue in these trends that people seem willing to do, a lot of people anyhow because the shiny object of some point scheme or some other way to you know blame this person, blame that group that does not solve the problem. The problem is the numerator, the number of tags that you are all fighting for is shrinking because the wildlife numbers are shrinking because the habitat quality is getting compromised, >> right?

[00:17:46]>> And it's it's really that simple to to illustrate where the problem is. The hard part that takes time and money and effort and advocacy is putting more wildlife on the landscape.

[00:18:00]>> Yeah. But that's what our predecessors did. They accepted that this was going to be hard work.

[00:18:05]>> Yeah.

[00:18:06]>> And they knew they probably weren't ever going to see the benefits of it.

[00:18:10]>> That it was going to be their kids or their grandkids or someone still unborn who was going to be the beneficiary.

[00:18:16]But they did it. And that's that's my point in all this. When we hear all this complaining after tag, if you want to call it tag draw or application season, if if you didn't draw your tag and you want to make it your odds better, put more wildlife on the landscape, >> right?

[00:18:34]>> Be a part of the groups, be be there showing up, you know, make your voice heard when things are happening to habitat, when things are happening to funding, for management of species >> and for research, too. Because I think that's like we've come a long ways with big horn sheep in particular and trying to understand what's causing the declines. And with big horn sheep, disease is one of the biggest things.

[00:18:57]And we know like I mean the basic premise breaking it down super simply is you put uh wild sheep with domestic sheep, the wild sheep are going to die.

[00:19:06]And so we know that and it's a it's a delicate balance of trying to figure that out of mitigation of trying to keep them separate and trying to figure out is there ways that we can build immunity maybe or is there like can we remove these chronic shedters of pneumonia in the population to you know there's a lot of work going into that right now. So people are putting a lot of money and effort into trying to figure out solutions to the disease problem cuz that has been the biggest contributing factor to that.

[00:19:34]>> You know, like you said, like 70% decline in sheep permits in Montana.

[00:19:38]>> Yeah.

[00:19:38]>> Which sucks.

[00:19:39]>> And then mountain goats, we still don't know. They're starting to do some research, but disease is also a >> contributing factor to mountain goats as well.

[00:19:47]>> And the interesting thing about mountain goats is they're actually doing really well in a lot of introduced populations.

[00:19:54]So like over half of the mountain goat population in Montana >> is in introduced ranges. In the 1940s they started putting mountain goat.

[00:20:03]They're like, "Hey, there's no there's no animals at the tops of these mountains. Let's put mountain goats there." And which is one of the populations that I drew a permit for this year. So they're actually doing really well where I have my permit. But in their native mountain ranges in the western half of the state, they're declining. And it's like and part of it is we don't know. Like it's just like there I mean we know we know some of the factors that contribute it to it but we don't know at what level each factor is contributing.

[00:20:28]>> Yep.

[00:20:28]>> And so and I think it's important like I think people get mad if I don't mention predation in a lot of things because predation does definitely play a role but it's just like >> it it's hard to do predator control as a solution to help populations out because it's just a band-aid on the problem.

[00:20:43]like it's it's uh like certainly has impacts and especially when populations get low with things like sheep and goats like >> a mountain line comes in and can completely devastate a new introduced big horn sheep herd. So it is important to think about and be taken into account but >> predation as a whole is a bandaid on the problem compared to what habitat and >> and even disease I think is a much bigger proportion of that >> pie of declining or the reasons for decline. Yeah.

[00:21:11]>> Um, but one thing about mountain goat that I alluded to earlier is they did there is some indications that hunter harvest is actually having a contributing factor to some of these declines in these low population native herds which is like we should that one we should take seriously because I earlier we said how hunters don't have an impact but with mountain goats >> they can and the biggest problem is killing nannies.

[00:21:33]>> Nannies. Yeah. Females they're a low productive rate. They can't sustain that level of harvest on females.

[00:21:39]>> Yeah. And so and like unfortunately the vast majority of mountain go seasons and regulations allow for nanny harvest because it's incredibly difficult to tell the difference between a billion and nanny.

[00:21:50]>> And there was a study that they did where it was I think it was 52% of hunters were incapable of distinguishing >> really I want to say I think it was like the same survey or study that it was like 92 or 90 around 90% of people wanted to shoot a billy. they intended to shoot a Billy, >> but only 50% were capable of identifying a Billy versus Danny.

[00:22:10]>> So that of that, you know, >> proportion and if you look at the harvest results, a lot of nannies get killed. I don't know, I should have u actually added it up, but I >> in a lot of districts, it's at least 50% of the harvest. That's nonsustainable.

[00:22:24]are nannies and well I mean >> it is it because I think managers recognize that this is happening and then they have but then they have to lower the total number of >> that tag level is not sustainable at that har female harvest rate with mountain goats >> right they're just their managers are going to give out less permits because they know that 50 you know or you know hopefully less than 50% harvest is going to be nannies but they have to take that into consideration so they're just going to they're going to give out less permits because hunters are killing nannies.

[00:22:57]>> If everybody was determined and only killed billies, then they could give out more permits permit.

[00:23:02]>> And I don't know what the solution is. I think only >> education >> education. Well, the I think a mandatory goat identification course would be helpful. And then in Alaska, there's a like a descentive program where you're punished if you shoot an So, it's legal to shoot a nanny, but if you do in certain areas, then you're prohibited from goat hunting for 5 years. But it it's not unreasonable to expect hunters to invest more time and money and effort into their own knowledge so that they can stop that trend.

[00:23:31]>> Right. And if hunters aren't willing to do that, that means collectively we're accepting this continual decline. And then every May and June we're going to complain that we didn't draw our tag.

[00:23:41]Well, I mean, it's hard because like I I'm gonna put myself to the test this year because this use I mean I've been on several goat hunts and when you wait a lifetime, you're going to get to do this maybe once in your life, right?

[00:23:54]>> Y >> I waited 25 years to draw this permit.

[00:23:56]>> Y >> I'm really excited. I'm going to try my hardest to kill a billy. But if you get this one opportunity to kill this special species in your life and it dumps four feet of snow, you can barely get into your unit and it's the last week of season and there's a nanny there.

[00:24:14]>> Most people are going to shoot that nanny.

[00:24:16]>> Yeah, >> cuz I I mean it's just like >> they shouldn't, but I get it that they will.

[00:24:21]>> Yeah. And it's legal. It is legal. But it's this like I think it's this u that one's a tough one because it's just like it's such a it's not like you're going to go goat hunting every year unless you live in Alaska or Canada. But >> it's just like it's it's a tough one to to tell somebody that hey this one thing one chance you get in your lifetime.

[00:24:39]>> Don't mess it up. Like don't don't shoot.

[00:24:42]>> No I I get that. But I also don't have much tolerance for that.

[00:24:46]>> Yeah. Because I've had goat tags >> and if you spend enough time researching, you go and do enough scouting, you observe enough goats, you learn how to tell, right? Watch them long enough, they when they go to pee, one stretches and one squats.

[00:25:00]>> Yeah.

[00:25:00]>> You know, they're just so the privilege of having a goat tag in in your case, and I know you will do this, is high. That's a that's that's a privilege that comes on the backs of a lot of conservation work of other people that got our goats to where they are today or kept them from completely disappearing.

[00:25:22]>> Yeah.

[00:25:23]>> I feel that everyone who has that tag has the obligation to at least invest some time in knowing the difference between a nanny and a Billy >> and not shooting an Annie.

[00:25:34]>> Yeah.

[00:25:35]>> That that that's my own personal opinion. And I know some people are watching this who've shot an Annie and like, "Well, that's easy for you to say."

[00:25:42]>> No, it is easy for me to say because when I've had those tags, I put a lot of effort into knowing the difference.

[00:25:47]>> Yeah.

[00:25:47]>> And most other hunters I know take it seriously.

[00:25:52]And you should take it seriously. But that that's just one of the the many species that a lot of people probably aren't ever going to get to hunt. My point in in a lot of this is that we've we've been the beneficiaries of a lot of work from a lot of people to get to where we are.

[00:26:11]>> Mhm.

[00:26:12]>> And I'd love to do this interview if I'm alive in 20 years because we just measured a 20-year window. I may not be alive in 20 years, Marcus. You will be.

[00:26:22]>> But I'd love to see what these trends look like because we know the US population is going to continue to grow.

[00:26:31]basically or I I I would say most of the science we see says that we're going to have more drought, we're going to have warmer periods, which is very difficult for the habitat >> that these animals evolved on. They can't evolve that quickly and adapt that quickly. So, I'd be interested to see where these numbers are going to be in 20 years. And if hunters as a collective group, we we're different, right? Some are going to be on one have one idea or advocate for another. Collectively though, what's going to carry the day?

[00:27:06]The scarcity mindset of well, let's cut this group. Let's cut that group. Let's let the old greyhaired guys like me have 10 times as many points and more raffle tickets in the bucket. Or are we going to say, "Yeah, it's a lot of work to improve forage, to improve all the other things, water and space, and and we're going to have to change our behavior so we aren't disrupting them every day. Are we willing to make those kind of investments of our time and our money, of our advocacy, of our of our way of doing things for the benefit of those who may not even I I have no guarantee that I'm going to if I go and do this that I'm going to live tomorrow where I'm going to get to do this. So if if I become or or use my time or my talent or my money towards a cause of improving habitat, that's not something I should look at as, oh, what's my return on that?

[00:28:05]>> Yeah. It's hard >> because it's a long-term investment. And that's what these people did before us.

[00:28:10]They made long-term investments.

[00:28:13]>> Yeah.

[00:28:13]>> In the infrastructure, the research you talked about, the funding of things that don't show an immediate result. They did all of that and we're the beneficiaries of it right now. And are we going to piss it down our leg or are we going to keep it going?

[00:28:27]>> Yeah. It's hard because everyone likes instant gratification. They like they like to see the results, you know, of like I killed that coyote. That coyote didn't kill that fawn. So like that's an instant grat gratification result.

[00:28:40]>> That's great. Like you can do that, but it you're kidding yourself if you're thinking that's going to make a long-term impact on the population, right? And so that's the that's the point. I think it's like you're saying, it's a a long-term investment. This is not this does not happen overnight. And it's hard. People, >> you know, disease research and habitat improvements and habitat protection and conservation easements and all these things like you don't see the result the next year.

[00:29:08]>> No, >> it's decades down the road. But >> that it's the most the single most important thing for our wildlife is just having a home and having food for them.

[00:29:19]>> Yeah.

[00:29:19]>> And like they they they need habitat and they and especially like we say with changing temperatures like the quality of habitat and the available riparian areas for moose and willows and all of this stuff is >> like changing and the as it degrades it's just going to get worse and worse.

[00:29:37]>> Yeah. And so anywhere we can protect and conserve and improve habitat, it's it that's what pays dividends down the road.

[00:29:45]>> Yep. Every point we've touched on in this discussion, predation, disease, uh all you name it, the higher the quality and quantity of the habitat, the less effect predation and disease have because it makes the populations more resilient. So, >> exactly.

[00:30:06]>> It's I I I keep going back to this. Are you a saver or are you a spender?

[00:30:13]Our predecessors were savers and they built and they invested.

[00:30:18]I I have confidence that we're going to we're not going to let this fall apart.

[00:30:23]People are going to do what they can with their time, their talent, and their treasure, and they're going to make sure that these trends don't continue.

[00:30:32]Because other than elk, which if I were to do this same thing, elk numbers actually have increased a lot, but there's a lot of advocacy for elk because we get a lot of opportunity to hunt elk. There's a lot of people who are in invested in the idea of, hey, I go to elk camp every year.

[00:30:51]>> Mhm.

[00:30:51]>> So, there's a lot of habitat work been done.

[00:30:55]You know, 10 million acres just by the elk foundation, >> almost 10 million acres of habitat improvement. So the it becomes a bit of a chicken and an an egg. The more someone can engage in an activity, the more investment they'll put into it and the greater that species and that habitat does in the face of all these other pressures.

[00:31:16]>> Mhm.

[00:31:17]>> When you start having, well, why do I care about sheep? Why do I care about goat or moose? I'm never going to get to hunt them. So that it gets in these cycles, but all those cycles can be slowed or reversed if all of us say it doesn't matter whether I get to hunt them or not. I care about wildlife. I care about the future of hunting and and and this species and I'm going to speak up.

[00:31:41]>> Yeah. And when it comes to habitat, single species management is rarely a thing either, too. Like if you improve habitat for one animal, it's probably going to improve for all others, too.

[00:31:50]>> Yeah. But one last thing just because it reminded me when you said incre how well elk have done there is some studies too that suggests that because of increased elk populations in some areas that's led to that you know increased competition with moose on riparian habitats. So >> competition with other species is definitely a part of it issue. you compare like you know that's a when you look at male deer and prongghorn and they they use some of the same resources and same with elk and so those three species are competing for habitat and when you have big boom cycles of one there's there's simply just less of the pie to go around for others. So, that's another factor in this whole puzzle that's uh an interesting one that again it's not as huge of a proportion, but like there's only so much habitat that can go around and only so much wildlife that can exist on it. So, >> yeah. I mean, when I look in the mirror at this and I kind of be moaning that I didn't draw my tag this year, I point at the guy in the mirror and say, "It's the habitat, stupid. Quit worrying about these other things. take care of the habitat and most other problems will get a lot better.

[00:32:58]>> Yeah.

[00:32:59]>> But anyhow, >> yeah. Well, that was >> we'll see the comments below about who did or who didn't draw and you know why why this agency is no good and why these people are the took my tag or whatever.

[00:33:12]>> Well, it's awesome. It's I mean it's the influencers because you you overpromoted the resource and so everybody which I mean it again that doesn't have zero impact either like promoting the res like the more applications that go in are going to decrease your odds for sure but again it's just like >> the population is increasing people are going to continue to be interested in hunting like the demand for these tags is >> likely going to go up. like it's just it is the reality that we live in and we can argue about it and try to limit the number of applicants but like you said realistically the biggest factors are going to be >> improving increasing conserving habitat >> right and the more people we have advocating for that the better the habitats are going to be the better the wildlife's going to be and the bigger that numerator of number of tags is going to be >> for sure all right well thank you Randy >> yeah thank you Marcus I don't think I'm going to draw a tag this year but that's all right someone drew tag. Yeah.