FINDING PEACE AS AN ADOPTEE with Lauren Williams

[00:00:10][music] Hello everyone. this another freedom to feel conversation and my guest today is Lauren C. Williams. She is a psychotherapist, founder of Park Avenue Mental Health Counseling in New York City, and a graduate of Columbia University. As an adoptee herself, she helps adopes navigate complex family relationships, strengthen their sense of identity and self-worth, and finding healing and empowerment through their life stories. So this is my brief introduction to you Lauren. My the full bio will be at the end. The question that I always begin all my conversations for some reason never left me is still the same. How would you introduce yourself? Who is Lauren in this very moment?

[00:01:09]>> Uh let's see. Lauren is someone who is a victim of trauma herself, an adoptee herself. So, I focus with my clients on trauma, various forms of trauma, some very bad forms of trauma, unfortunately, and um adopy. I also work with adopes.

[00:01:27]I'm a Christian counselor also, so I work with lots of different types of of clients, but mostly ones that are the victims of trauma.

[00:01:36]>> Um, thank you for the beautiful work that you have been doing. I know we just met and I know you've been doing this for a while.

[00:01:43]What did you always um kind of had this in um in the background of you of becoming a therapist at some point? When would that happen?

[00:01:54]>> I would love to.

[00:01:54]>> Yeah. Well, actually, well, part of my trauma was that my father was very abusive and he cut me off and fortunately I got a full scholarship to college, but I wasn't able to continue on with my studies after college. So, I had to get a job and make some money.

[00:02:10]Um, and I worked for a large several a large software company and then I ended up starting my own software company and ran that for years. I still own the partner, but I don't run it anymore. And I said, "This is a great time. I can go back to school now." And I've always wanted to be a therapist, always. Um, if I had gone if I had gotten out of school earlier, I probably would have gone and got I would probably would have gotten my PhD, but I didn't have time to do that. So, I got two masters from Columbia. Um, but I've always wanted to be a psychotherapist. I've always wanted to help people with trauma. I've always wanted to help people. I work with couples, too. And a lot of a lot of therapists don't work with couples. Um, that I find that very rewarding also.

[00:02:57]So, um, I've always wanted to do this. I just got the opportunity to finally do what I really wanted to do.

[00:03:03]>> That's beautiful to hear. What is about your work that something that you really love about your work? And I know it sounds like a very um obvious question.

[00:03:12]You would say I hear that a lot where they get the their patients or their clients to kind of realize something that they had not had they had not realized before almost like the aha moment. What from your perspective, what is like incredibly beautiful about your work that you find it on a dayto-day?

[00:03:38]>> I just got off the phone with a client who said, "My life has been changed because of you." And I said, "No, it's been changed because of the work you've done. You're just do you're doing all the work, not me." And um she her life has significantly changed. But I also um her child is is has a very very deadly disease and I um I have a functional medicine background also. So I helped her find some doctors to a doctor to treat her daughter and she's thrilled by that and and it's been very successful.

[00:04:12]Knock on wood. Um because she's a very very rare disorder. Um and it's just been it it's seeing people blossom. It's seeing people get that twinkle back in their eyes, get that sparkle back. It's just it gives me so much joy and it's it's it's therapeutic for them. It's therapeutic for me. I I just I it gives me a lot of joy and for whatever reason I don't take the trauma home with me. Um because I get it gets me so much joy to to give them hope and help. Really does.

[00:04:47]>> Yeah, I can see that. I think you're even listening to you. It's it's so clear. It's it's a beautiful thing to help others. Do you do any you said you don't take that with you, the traumas?

[00:04:59]Because I think we talked off record before we met before this interview and I was thinking about me becoming a therapist. A lot of people ask and never thought and I that's something that I would do because of my sensitivity. I would just break down and bring everything with me. So is that something that is this work that you do that part of preparation before meeting your clients or >> you know it's I think it's I think when I went to graduate school I developed a lot more empathy for people.

[00:05:32]>> Yeah. and started channeling started channeling that empathy towards my clients so that but you can't take it home with you because you take it home with you you're going to be you're going to think the world's coming to an end because I work with a lot of rape and incest victims and I mean incest victims from their own parents so really bad stuff and just seeing them flourish and seeing them um reframe do a lot of cognitive reframement um and see them really change their lives and and they're doing the work.

[00:06:10]They really are. I'm just I'm I'm there to help them along, but they're doing all the work and it's just it's it's a beautiful thing to watch. So, it's it's it's a lot of fun. I mean, you're not successful in every case, but in a lot of cases, you are. And so, that brings me a lot of joy. It really does.

[00:06:30]A lot of it makes it it's makes me fit for joy. [laughter] >> That's it. Yeah. That's the reason I do this, Lauren. I always ask myself, is there anything else? If it's not joyful, I'm not doing it. I remember saying that, you know, the very beginning without >> being is in.

[00:06:48]>> So the the theme of our conversation is finding peace as an ade. So I love how you titled that. The word peace says a lot. is a powerful concept in a state of being a state of mind. So perhaps to set the stage, what is peace to you? What does it feel like to be at peace?

[00:07:12]>> Um not ruminating about the past, not ruminating about the future, not trying to stay in the present moment. um trying to enjoy everything day by day, counting our blessings. Um having great friendships, having great relationships, having you know people that I love in my life that I know that I can count on. Um I I adore all my patients too. So or my clients, whatever you want to call them.

[00:07:38]Um but they are, you know, they bring a lot of joy and peace to me too.

[00:07:44]>> I love that answer. What a beautiful and clear. And I wish everyone to embody that. And I know it's something that feels like for some of us feels like a practice finding peace and staying in that in that state kind of day to day every moment.

[00:08:00]>> Do you feel like it is a practice?

[00:08:03]>> It is a practice. Yeah. You have to do a lot of cognitive um work where you I do a lot of thought stopping. So if a lot if if that's CBT, cognitive behavior therapy, um for those who may not know the terminology, um they it it's it's basically where I say to myself, "Nope, not today, Satan. Not today.

[00:08:26]>> We're not we're not having this and and we're not having this internal dialogue today.

[00:08:31]>> We are going to be happy. We are going to try to share our gifts with the world >> that you know, God-given gifts from the world. and we are going to do the very best we can to do so.

[00:08:42]>> Wow, that's beautiful. How do you integrate spirituality within your work?

[00:08:48]I'm wondering is everybody open to it or >> um Well, they they tell me if they want to or not.

[00:08:57]>> Yes. Uh so >> I don't I I I don't push any kind of spirituality on anybody.

[00:09:02]>> It's not my place.

[00:09:04]>> Yes. That's >> But I I do get quite a few people that call and that are spiritual people.

[00:09:10]>> Yeah. And that Do you feel like it helps when somebody's already spiritual in their own way? Does it help with healing in trauma?

[00:09:19]>> I I think so because they believe in something bigger than themselves >> um and bigger than what happened to them and that there's a reason and that they can also turn that that something horrible into a gift.

[00:09:34]um and learn from it and survive it and be stronger for it. You'd be surprised how many of my clients are very very successful people, you know, it kind of goes one way or the other.

[00:09:48]>> Fascinating.

[00:09:49]So that is so so true. I mean I I can't I cannot help it but um resonate and from my own experience um confirm that because of my spiritual background healing became so much more not easy but became let's say more playful where I'm able to see the parts and you know the past in a playful light not in in the light of playfulness and in a sense of curiosity too so I'm not so caught not being >> too serious about anything. So that really really helped me.

[00:10:27]>> Yeah, definitely.

[00:10:28]>> I'm glad that's you and and I always bring them together from my perspective because I have that as my background. I always bring that into conversations here and I hope you don't mind about spiritual kid.

[00:10:40]>> No, not at all. And that's I mean it sounds like you're using a combination of internal family systems when you talk about different parts of you >> and you're using your spirituality in combination which is great. That's exactly I I I do that with my my my clients. So you you seem like you've done the work yourself.

[00:10:59]>> My god. Yes. It's still ongoing but yes absolutely.

[00:11:03]>> It's always a work it's a work in progress but you know some days were better than others you know but look what you're doing for millions of people. So that's true, Lord. Yeah. And I never think about results. That's one thing. Every time when I'm here in the presence of of you in your presence and anybody's presence, everything disappears. And this moment is the not just sacred, but it's the only moment that there is. There's nothing else happening. And I guess I don't know how I learned that, but >> it it really really makes a huge difference if we can be >> Yeah.

[00:11:38]>> to be here.

[00:11:40]>> So, >> oh yeah, >> I I think you're in the same position as me and that what you're doing is feels very therapeutic for you, >> too.

[00:11:49]>> It's not only therapeutic for your listeners. It's not even it's not, you know, it's therapeutic for you also to you learn from your you learn from your client. I learned from my clients, you're learning from your your listeners >> and um in your speakers and so I think it's you know it's it's very interesting circle of joy.

[00:12:11]>> Yeah, that's it. I love that. That would be a good a good title of a book, right?

[00:12:16]>> Circle of joy.

[00:12:17]>> Yeah. Are you planning to write one?

[00:12:18]Maybe one thing. Um, I have been asked to several times and I'm thinking about it, but right now I'm focused on um, you know, getting the word out about my about my practice and um, probably I'm I'm licensed in New York. I'm probably going to get licensed in Texas, too. So, I'm working on that right now. And then I can go to a book.

[00:12:39]>> Maybe maybe in my maybe when I get a little bit older, I'm going to write a book. So, we'll see.

[00:12:44]>> Yeah, that's Yeah, that sounds good, too. I think we talked about this off record. Yeah, I remember asking the question. So, um yes, and the um I want to make a comment about the the therapeutic um kind of um resonance or um that comes from these interactions, but there's also a sense of connection.

[00:13:06]And I think that's what >> Oh, I just love that, Lauren. I love love love being connected, being connect with the other, >> right?

[00:13:16]>> I love that. So >> right >> I guess >> people people have to feel safe.

[00:13:21]>> Yeah.

[00:13:21]>> Yeah. And and that creates right the sense of connection when we feel safe >> and or maybe when we wanted to connect.

[00:13:29]So h it's for my sense of spirituality too that I feel that we are already connected that underlying uh divine intelligence it's kind of it's everywhere and it's not just up in heaven it's on earth too. It's in you and me.

[00:13:44]>> Absolutely. So >> absolutely >> there's something about that that kind of fascinates me and I'm always looking to connect with the secretness out there. So going back to the topic because I could go on and on and on talking about about other things. So um finding peace as an adapt I guess we can start with your story. Uh you we talked off record about this too but I would love for you to share your own adapt story.

[00:14:11]>> Sure. Sure. Um, I was adopted as a baby or at least that was the story. Um, you know, my that was what I was told. Um, but my parents were told some different things about me that weren't necessarily true, but or or my mom told me some stuff that wasn't true. Like she told me that my parents were married and stuff like that. and that, you know, um I ended up hiring a um I waited till my mother passed away um because my mother did not want me to find my real parents or my real family. She was very adamant about that and felt very um very um challenged by that and um uncomfortable with that.

[00:14:54]>> It's not like I would not love her. It was just, you know, but she just she didn't feel comfortable with that. So, I respected her wishes. And after she passed away, I went through several different places to find my real family um to no avail. And then I end up calling somebody who I found out some about a friend of mine who had found her family. And she's like, "You got to know this this amazing woman is and she's a let me forensic investigative genetic genealogologist."

[00:15:25]>> Oh, wow. and her name is um she her name is um her name is um her last name is Travis and she's with www.dnow.life and she is uh she found my family in about 4 days and put in the original call to them.

[00:15:48]So, she's some miracle worker. So, she did this from a DNA test. Um, and she went through and found my birth certificate and everything.

[00:15:58]>> Um, so she um I found out it was it was both a burden and a blessing finding my real family. Um, I went in I I went in with very low expectations and I really recommend that all of your adopes who are looking to find their birth families that they go in with low expectations because we tend to romanticize, you know, what our real parents were like.

[00:16:25]You know, we tend to we have this fantasy in our brain about what our life's going to look like. You know, that kind of thing. Um, adopes all do it. And, um, the reality is, you know, you were chosen by a family that really, really wanted you. Um, and you know, but you could have a lot of mixed feelings because you can feel like, well, I also came from a family that didn't want me.

[00:16:48]So, it can be very difficult as an adoptee to grapple with those two, the juxaposition of the two. Um, so I found my real family. Um my father's side was my father was was married um and he had an affair with my mother and um it unfortunately it destroyed my father's family and so I found my siblings but they were none too pleased to find me um and they were worried there were more Laurens out there apparently. Um, so that didn't go over well. But my mother's my mother's side, I'm very close. Oh, I'm close to my half brother and I'm very close to a cousin on my mother's side, excuse me, my father's side, who was beyond delighted to find me. So, you never know. Um, both my parents had passed away, unfortunately.

[00:17:44]Um, so I didn't get to see that. But as in growing up, I was an only child. I hated being an only child. And now I've got, you know, a half brother. I've got um I've got half brothers and sisters, but they're not in my life.

[00:17:59]Unfortunately, they don't want to be. Um I think they somewhat blamed me when, you know, I was just the product of this, you know, relationship. I didn't I I didn't I had anything to do with it.

[00:18:14]Um, but they, you know, and I understand that and respect their wishes and have no ill will towards them at all. Um, but then I found a cousin on my father's side, my father's brother's dod daughter who is wonderful. Tells me every day how much she loves me, tells me how excited she was to find me. So, that's been incredibly rewarding. And to find that I have a half father, too. It's been great. Um so it was a you know it was a a work in progress. Um but again I think if you go in with very low expectations um and you do a lot a lot of cognitive reframing. I was speaking to a um adoptee from China who was very angry because her parents put her her parents put her in foster care in China. And China, Romania, and um and Russia are some of the worst places to be adopted from because they put them in foster care and they sort of ignore them. So they have attach a lot of them have attachment issues. Really serious attachment issues.

[00:19:17]>> Um as do a lot of adopes. A lot of adoptes have attachment issues. Um but because we and there's a book there which is kind of controversial called the primal wound about when you separate a w a separated child from parents what happens but I was talking to her and she was writing an article and she contacted me to help um make to do some quotes for the article and we started talking about her story and she was um adopted in China and she was pretty angry about the whole situation because she was involved sister care and she was old elder she was older and I said you know that was back during China's one child policy and let's think about it this way your mother and father loved you so much >> they did not terminate that pregnancy they had the baby which there was a lot of issues back then I mean they would really really punish you if you had a second child or if you had you know >> a child and she wanted you to have a better life and she goes, "You know, I hadn't thought about it like that." And I said, "Yeah, I mean, it really," and she's like, "Thank you for helping me, you know, cognitively reframe that." So, um, you just never know. You never know the circumstances. You never know when you're adopted what the circumstances was. if it was an underage, you know, young girl that got pregnant on accident or there's religious reasons or it was affair or something, you know, that could have been that could have been, you know, a or there was drugs or alcohol or there was, you know, other things involved. But what I have found through therapy is that I'm seeing the same stuff >> with with biological parents. Yeah, >> that you know they're not always the best.

[00:21:18]>> So, you know, try not to romanticize, you know, the this this this family that you don't know and hopefully you've been adopted into a family that's very loving, that's very caring that and and truly try to appreciate them. And if you have not been adopted into a family like that, then make your family. You know, you you can get married, you can have kids, you can have great friends, you can have great pets, you can have, you know, you don't have to settle for what life brought you. You can you can always change the story and change the ending for you.

[00:22:00]>> Wow. I love that. There's a lot to explore within [laughter] you said, but yes, absolutely.

[00:22:10]I love love love the part that you said now romanticizing biological uh parents like it it is my case I wrote a book about it with all the traumas that I have been through with my biological >> I'm sorry >> this is just >> and so yes so this is is a huge huge um kind of almost like um piece of understanding if we can get if If the be adapt um can can get that and one day they will understand that humans are humans and they they come in all forms and sizes and and and in psychological shapes. So in my case it wasn't um at some point I thought that I was adopted because I couldn't believe how the head they were. So, and that doesn't that's funny how sometimes we have this impression that uh that parents who brought us into the world in this world would be humans that would care for us but it's not that simple.

[00:23:22]>> No. No. And I love your suggestion about creating our own family, our own sense of um relational identity instead of trying to hold on to the past or what it could have been. I love the piece about expectations.

[00:23:38]>> Do you I mean you you mentioned about reframing. Is that something that you work with adapt like a lot?

[00:23:44]>> Absolutely.

[00:23:44]>> Yeah. Absolutely. But look what you've done. Like you had a very traumatic background.

[00:23:50]>> Yes.

[00:23:51]>> And look what you've done. and you started this podcast called Fit for Joy.

[00:23:55]>> Yeah.

[00:23:55]>> So, you know, you kind of wonder sometimes >> like cuz I had a traumatic adoption too.

[00:24:02]My because my father was not a good guy.

[00:24:04]My mother was wonderful. But um but my father was a my adopted father was a a bad person and um really really terrible ugly guy um violent guy. And um you know, you kind of wonder, would we be where we are if we didn't go through that? Could we have the empathy for other people that we have? Could we would we you know, would you be doing this podcast? You know, would I be a psychotherapist?

[00:24:39]Would I be, you know, where would I be?

[00:24:42]Because if sometimes if you're raised in these perfect homes with everyone telling you how wonderful you are, that's not always the best outcome for kids either. So there's got to be something there's something there's got to be something in between that makes people healthy with and and want to succeed without um without going through trauma to get there.

[00:25:06]>> Yes. Yeah. Yes. And you just made me think now about the what would be that in between right Lauren. Um where we don't need that much suffering because I'm not grateful for the suffering that I went through all the the violence >> but um also what would be in between like we are not also overprotected and um like you said we are not always told that we are wonderful and we are perfect. So that doesn't also help. But it feels to me like that it would be therapists perhaps spiritual teachers and therapists being parents. They would they would make wonderful parents. I mean from my it seems to me it did from what my experience has been with therapists. I just love therapists. Do you feel the same way? Do you see that as a vision that we all can somehow become a little therapist? You know have bring the therapist in us in our parenting style? Well, I think people that have been through trauma clearly don't want to be well, they either repeat the pattern of their parents or they're unbelievably great parents.

[00:26:13]>> That's because they want to be the exact opposite of the way their parents raised them. So if they were raised in a violent home, they were raised in abusive home, they if they're if if they're emotionally mature enough, they know not to repeat those patterns. And are they protective of their kids? Yes.

[00:26:35]Um but they make sure their kids know that they are loved, their children are loved, that they are supported, that they have their backs, and that no matter what happens, they're there for them. And I think that's a very important thing to tell your children is that you you that but but be discip disciplinarians too.

[00:26:55]>> Yes. Yeah. Of course.

[00:26:57]>> Just don't violent just don't violent ones.

[00:26:59]>> I know. Yes. I love your wisdom, Laura.

[00:27:02]I love what you're doing um these days.

[00:27:05]I love it. Feels like a mission to me.

[00:27:07]That's the purpose of your life. That's your mission because coming from your background too, from your own experience, it feels very real, very authentic.

[00:27:16]>> So it's really a beautiful >> I asked you earlier about uh peace. What is peace? How would you describe that?

[00:27:24]What is like you know to have peace? But a question that comes to me now is how did you find that in on your journey as an adoptee? When did you feel that you had enough to let that sense of peace flourish and and become more of you?

[00:27:45]>> It's still a work in progress every day.

[00:27:46]I have to remind myself if if those bad thoughts crop in or you know start coming in I have to I I'm like no no no we're not doing this and I reframe it immediately. Uh so that's something that that's fascinating because I asked you about practice too. So peace is not a destination. It's this ongoing >> a process process. Peace is a process and you pray you, you know, you pray, you uh you ask for peace, you um you practice.

[00:28:18]>> Um again, I if something pops up in my head telling me, you know, that giving, you know, a lot of a lot of adopes and a lot of children that grew up with trauma have imposter syndrome. They never think they're good enough. And um for those for for our listeners who don't know what imposter syndrome is, it's people that are generally highly successful but never feel they're good enough or they feel like they were lucky or they feel like whatever. And when that starts popping in, I'm like, "No, no, I'm not going to do this today. This is not what God wants for me. This is not what, you know, the people that love me want from me. This is not what I should have for me." And if you and there's also an orary part of it in that, you know, I had a bad father. Well, guess what? If I continue on and think badly about myself, he's pl he's he's he's he thinks that's great.

[00:29:16]>> Yeah.

[00:29:17]>> So, you know, if you've got bad parents and you think badly about yourself, that's not your fault. you you are born into this family or you were adopted into a family where people were not good people and but that doesn't mean that you have to repeat those patterns you can break the pattern anytime you want you just have to decide and maybe maybe it's out of anger maybe it's like I'm not going to be like that I mean my father told me my whole life how stupid I was so what did I do and he was he was a PhD by the way um and he went to several very good schools. So, what did I do? I fought to get into Columbia.

[00:29:59]>> You know what I'm saying? I'm like, and I'm sure he's rolling in his grave, >> but okay.

[00:30:04]>> Yeah.

[00:30:05]>> You know, sometimes you use it to um sometimes you use that kind of anger for positive, for good, that abuse for good. And and that's not really the way I want to say it, but you know what I mean. I think you know what would agree.

[00:30:25]>> I absolutely do and I so so admire you.

[00:30:29]That's what I was talking about. Fun like playfulness. Sounds very playful when you Oh, >> so you are not going to get the best of me if you think that's what you're doing, >> right?

[00:30:40]>> You got to get orary about it. You got to get orary. You got to go. You know what? when I was when I left school when I left you know home at whatever 17 18 you don't get to do this anymore and you can cut them off and you can don't feel guilty don't feel bad >> yes ah >> it's called boundaries >> that's huge huge one because I lot of people they go back uh in my case I never went back with my parents too so but there's this thing about going backh what is that about I have seen that in Same with my sister. She never left my mother. My mother my mother is highly abusive to her and she's still close to her. And I never understood that. Why are you close to her? She needs it close to me. I um a lot of people get used to um abusive people. They don't know any different and a lot of times they marry somebody that's like that or they're friends with people like that. So I would say, you know, a pink flag or a red flag or a yellow flag would be if you are like, let's say you're dating someone and then you start seeing characteristics of your parents that you didn't like, that's your flag, you know, because if you're if you come from a sympathetic nervous system um state of fight or flight your whole life or your whole childhood, And then you you are dating someone that re that sort of pushes those buttons again. You know, a normal healthy I shouldn't say normal, a healthy person who came from a good family or like a healthy family would run.

[00:32:24]>> But we don't we we we're more attracted to it because it feels familiar. It feels, you know, but we've got to we've got to say, "No, this person is emotionally unavailable. This person is not going to give me what I need. This person is reminds me of my father or this person just is not going to cut it and next next.

[00:32:45]>> Yes.

[00:32:46]>> Wow.

[00:32:46]>> Move on.

[00:32:48]>> Oh. Oh, I have a lot of compassion for that because it's been my uh experience too. So, we need to It's a lot It takes a lot of courage, Laura. It seems like courage. The courage to be alone even if we had to.

[00:33:03]It's something >> to me.

[00:33:05]>> That's really hard. That's hard for me, too. It's very hard for me to be alone because I I was the only child and I hated it. So, um being alone, being alone is probably the biggest challenge for me.

[00:33:17]>> Yeah. And that's the thing. At some point, we need to if needed, I know we all need support, but at some point if needed, it's important to have to be strong enough, brave enough to be alone as well. Right. And I learned >> and love love yourself and love yourself and be okay with it and take care of yourself and practice self-care.

[00:33:36]>> That's it. Yeah. Oh, that's it.

[00:33:38]>> And surround yourself by people.

[00:33:40]Surround yourself that are with girlfriends. Surround yourself with, you know, people that you meet that you would never think that you would, you know, connect with. Meet a lot of people and find your own find your new family.

[00:33:56]>> Yeah. Find your find your find your people.

[00:33:59]>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you do you recommend um is this the case with all adopes, Lauren? Do you feel like pretty much all adopes have this stronghold within that they want to find a biological family that they have the sense of uh the sense of worth? Their worthiness is not the selfworth. it's um kind of uh shaky per se. It's not established. Is that something that um pretty much affects all adopes or I certainly can't speak for all adopes. I certainly can't. Um but I will tell you that adopted adopted children have more instances of of depression, anxiety. Um, we started noticing that a lot of people that were in addiction centers were adopted.

[00:34:52]Um, so there was there's a high correlation and and it depends on when the adoption is, right? It depends on if the if an adoption was as a baby, if the family that they, you know, were raised by, if you were um I think it's important to discuss multiculturalism with adoption. You know, if your family, let's say you're Chinese or let's say you, you know, you're you're African-American or something and you're adopted by a white family, it's important for that family to make sure that you're exposed to your culture.

[00:35:25]I mean, you're you know, you live in Hawaii. Hawaii's got its own culture. I mean, it would be very important to introduce an adopted child from Hawaii to the Hawaiian culture, right? because but it's even, you know, when you're when you talk about children from China or Russia or Romania or um Africa, you know, or different or multicultural, you want to make sure and and introduce them to people like them, you know, dive into their roots, dive into their culture, dive into the food, dive into their, you know, introduce them to people. There's also another issue that I we don't know about yet and I don't think there's been enough time or longitudinal studies but people we haven't thought about the concept of surrogacy and it's interesting you know surrogacy is a form of adoption and it's very it would be very interesting to me to do a longitudinal study which you know probably someone out there can do it um on ch people that I mean I hate to use the I hate to talk about the Kardashian.

[00:36:31]Let's say the Kardashians. They all have like one kid or one child that's theirs and then you know other children that are the surrogacy. I wonder what the attachment patterns are for the children that they gave birth to, they raised for 9 months, you know, had it in their belly for 9 months versus the children that that, you know, someone else gave birth to. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.

[00:37:00]And how do people I have a friend who adopted or who was was inciminated by two by she has two boys by the same man and it was from a you know fertility clinic. She didn't know that she doesn't know the dad. I wonder what's going to happen when the child grows up and you know with DNA testing you could find out you've got a hundred brothers and sisters. Like how how is that child going to feel?

[00:37:26]>> I don't know the answer. You know I really don't. We we don't know the answer. It's not technology has been hasn't been along hasn't been around long enough for us to to answer that coherently. We just don't know.

[00:37:38]>> That's a very good point. Yeah. I never thought about that way too. But uh that would be wonderful for that those research to be conducted and and you even thought that you could do that perhaps some one day. That would be incredible.

[00:37:51]>> Yeah.

[00:37:52]>> I know it's >> Yeah, that's that's a huge right undertaking that would be amazing. It's >> been around. I mean, it just hasn't been around long enough. You know, we have all these new technologies. And so, what happens if you run your DNA one day to find out who your parents are and let's say you're from artificial incimination and some guy, you know, paid his way through college, you know, going to fertility, going to IVF clinics, you know, I don't know. And you could have hundred brothers and sisters, you know, >> and then you and you had a and you had a father that didn't want you at all, right? And and just got paid to, you know, >> but >> you never know. You You just don't know.

[00:38:33]And you don't know about surrogacy either. You just don't know, you know.

[00:38:37]>> Yeah.

[00:38:38]>> Um how those children are going to feel?

[00:38:40]How is a surro is a surrogate child going to feel different in a family that has, you know, um where the mom gave birth to the children. Are they going to feel a little different? I don't know the answer to that. I really don't. I'm not going to pretend to. But it would be interesting to have some ch some people on. I don't know how long sacy's been around, but um but it would be interesting to have people on that would that if if they're old enough now to talk about how surrogacy affected them versus um versus their biological siblings. Um, it's weird because I when I run a search, I get two answers and because I ran a search, I was like, I wanted to see how many people were adopted in the United States.

[00:39:27]>> And I get anywhere from 1.8 to 4.6 million.

[00:39:33]And I don't know the answer. Um, >> so it's kind of hard to tell because I'm getting two different statistics. The other thing that's that's um that's interesting is um I've just lost my train of thought. Um the um I lost my train of thought. I was going to say something.

[00:39:54]>> It's it will come up. Yeah, I'll wait.

[00:39:58]>> It'll come up. It'll come up.

[00:40:00]>> Yeah.

[00:40:00]>> Um >> you remember I have a question about um something that came to me. I know this sounds um might not sound uh what's the word politically correct but um was that possible um for is there a possibility of not revealing not telling the adoptee that he or she was adopted? Would that be a actually a better way to protect them emotionally?

[00:40:33]>> You know my they'll find out. They'll find out.

[00:40:36]>> They'll find out. They'll find out. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with the story about Ted Bundy, but Ted Bundy's um was raised by his his um his sister, who he thought was his sister, was actually his mother. They find out.

[00:40:52]>> So, you might as well My parents were very, at least my mother was very good about telling me that I was chosen um and I was bullied for being adopted.

[00:41:02]And I would look at them and I'd be like, "My mom, my parents chose me. they were stuck with you. You know, you don't have to say it quite like that. But >> I was being bullied, so I kind of fought back. But um >> but you know, there definitely is, you know, and and and adoption, it's interesting because adoption takes place in the mammal kingdom, too, or the animal kingdom. Um you know, there's I don't know if you've heard of Patch the Monkey from um Japan.

[00:41:32]>> Yeah. P patch, you know, he was he was abandoned by his mother. I think his mother was sick or something and couldn't raise him >> and he um they gave him a little pet they gave him a little toy orangutang to play with and then all the other monkeys started taking him in. So, it's kind of a universal trait to want to take in children and and and you know, ba and and monkeys apparently and and you know, it's something that it's something that happens. Yeah.

[00:42:03]>> Yeah. Um, yeah, that's a that's a fascinating thing about even in the animal world, right? But then that answer to my question is that no. Yeah, it's not a good idea not to help. Uh, and what is the the best way to do it? I love how your mother did it. Uh, you're chosing. I love love that. Um, but when did she do it? Is that does it very very early on she had a book and I can't remember what it was called. I think it was called like the chosen one or something >> and the chosen child or some I I could be saying it wrong so I forgive me.

[00:42:38]>> Um >> that um she read to me very early on very early on. She told me I was adopted which people that have said that they found it later >> have not had as much success as someone like me because I didn't really have any qualms about being adopted or anything when I was growing up. Um it was really more later in life and you know the thing about adopt this I remember now what I was going to say the thing about adopes is you know as we get older we like we'll walk through a doctor's office for example and they'll say well tell us about your health history with your parents. Well we don't know we don't know if our mother died of breast cancer. we don't or god forbid died of breast cancer or had breast cancer or colon cancer or you know these genetic diseases that we need to know about or heart disease or you know things like that hunting god forbid Huntington's disease >> yes >> something like that you know we don't know and so it can be um it can be very difficult as a as an adoptee that's it's a that's a good reason to find your your real family for that and then adoptions very different. I had a closed adoption.

[00:43:52]Um, adoptions now are open. You can meet your family. You can, you know, your birth family, the birth family and the um and the adopted family meet meet each other and sometimes have a relationship.

[00:44:08]And I wonder if those kids turn out better. I don't know the answer, but I I know people that have done it. In fact, I was helping I helped somebody do a whole like um book for uh their their adopted child they wanted to have. So it that basically said here's our home, here's our dog, here's where we go to church, here's what we here's what we do for a living, here's you know this is what your child's this is what your child's going to be exposed to [snorts] and it's been a very very successful adoption. So um it's very interesting.

[00:44:43]>> Yeah. Oh, I love I love love love the uh the ways that people are becoming more the system too seems like the system and people are becoming more creative around adoption. I I just recently I I mentioned to you that I I hosted a workshop here and we had an adapt and then she said something fascinating. She said she was so upset. She's still upset about this whole thing about the system because she believes that that whoever wants to adopt the baby should also adopt the mother. So she wants to write a book that says take the mother too, you know, love the mother too because usually the mothers are teenagers. They are very young women. So what do you think about that idea? She's still contemplating the idea of writing a book and but she's very she's like an activist. She she's trying to change the system. Um, I think it depends on the mother. What if the mother has a drug problem? What if the mother has a use?

[00:45:37]What if the mother I think it really depends on that mother. Honestly, you might not want >> I I I I do I also have a friend who um he she's married to a very very successful lawyer, like very one of the top trial lawyers in the country, and he's adopted. and she looked into the family and she decided not to tell him who his real family was because she didn't want to hurt him. She didn't want to upset him. So I and I I don't know the circumstances. She didn't tell me.

[00:46:10]But you know that person can be in you know this that person could be in prison. That person could be on drugs.

[00:46:15]That person could be schizophrenic or you know what if they have a horrible disease. You don't want them to know that maybe or you do. you know, there's a lot of ethical issues that come up and I would want if if I was your friend, I would want to meet the mother before I advocated for that.

[00:46:32]>> That's a very good point. Yeah, we yeah, we got very emotionally kind of connected with this idea that oh yeah, why not? And um I guess nobody including myself didn't question that their side of it. What about that's >> could go very well. Could go very self.

[00:46:51]>> Yes, that's true. I'm very pragmatic person and it just you never you just don't know you know but it could also come it also could be a young young girl that would has been thinking about that child forever and would love to you would love someone to have adopted her too. So >> yes >> so I I I completely see your friend's point of view. I I do I just would be careful because you just never know.

[00:47:21]>> Yeah. Like with everything, it's not it's not just one way, right? It's not as simple as we would love it to be. It can be that too.

[00:47:29]>> Yeah. And we tend to rom and keep in mind we tend to romanticize our our our real parents or our excuse me, our biological parents. We tend to romanticize that. So, we have to be careful with that because that's not always the most romantic story.

[00:47:45]>> Yeah. That's a big one. Have you um read any books out there about this specific topic um romanticizing expectations from aductees about the biological because this is a great topic for a book.

[00:48:00]>> You know what um I was going to say I have a few books in here. I have the the books the books I focus on are more like books like attach or the body keeps score.

[00:48:13]>> Yes.

[00:48:13]>> Or more trauma focused.

[00:48:16]>> Yes. Um but um there are some books like there's one book called Adult Adopes in Writing to Heal: Migrated Toward Wholeness.

[00:48:27]Um there's another book, It's Okay to Talk About Adoption. I'm sure there's several books about it. Um and I really recommend if you do have an adopted child that you do tell them early on and you tell them they're chosen and make sure they feel very very special.

[00:48:44]I love >> I recommend that for all parents actually.

[00:48:48]>> Yes. Yeah. And when you say an early age, what is the age? Two, three, four, any idea, Lauren? Any suggestions?

[00:48:57]>> I cannot recall. I think probably one of the first books I ever read that my mother read to me was about being an adopted child and being chosen.

[00:49:06]>> But you don't remember the age. From your experience now, what would that >> probably? I mean I I learned to read when I was probably >> I don't know how old were you when you learned to read like three four.

[00:49:17]>> Yeah, that age. Yeah.

[00:49:19]>> Yeah.

[00:49:19]>> Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And um did you have do you remember having the um almost the capacity to understand that? Um I mean this emotionally understand what was happening. Is that something that because it doesn't I don't know it child. It seems to me at that >> my mother did such a great job of normalizing it and making me feel special.

[00:49:46]>> Yeah.

[00:49:46]>> Because of it. Um I don't know if she had read some books about it. I don't know what she did, but she was all over that. All over the topic. And so yeah, I I didn't I never had any kind of resentment or anything.

[00:50:03]Um they told me very early on they that made me feel at least my mother did made me feel very special and um it maybe why I'd never attached to my father maybe there was an issue there um but definitely my mother we definitely did um and so uh I yeah you I don't know I I I think telling them as early as possible making them feel as great about it as possible um introducing to any kind of multicultural issues is very important >> very very early on so they feel part of the family. Um, another issue we have not discussed are, you know, how do how do kids how do children feel that are um that maybe have biological siblings or non-biological siblings, you know, that where the sibling where they're maybe they because I I know somebody I have a friend who adopted several children from Romania and then had their own child.

[00:51:08]>> Yes. Um, so I wonder how I'm wondering about the attachment issues regarding those the differences.

[00:51:14]>> Oh, that would be fascinating too. So you never had siblings. You never had um adapt, brothers and sisters or >> No, I was the only child. Yeah.

[00:51:23]>> So you don't have that experience.

[00:51:24]That's fascinating to I mean I love your uh how interested you are. I mean obviously from the perspective of your own your career what you're doing now but I see also how much you care that's what I see clearly that you trying to go as deep as you can in all all these areas to because you it feels to me like you care about their psychological health and you know their emotional health. It's a beautiful thing to to witness. Yeah. I I see that throughout the interview you have you have been saying that. So you really really care about the um the long-term effects of of how children are raised one way or another. So that's really a beautiful thing.

[00:52:13]>> Beautiful thing Lauren. Thank you.

[00:52:16]>> Thank you. Well, you do the same.

[00:52:18]>> Thank you. So we almost at the end and hopefully we explored pretty much the topic. I had so much. I know you sent it to me a lot to read and I had the notes in front of me and we just kind of took off on our own on this.

[00:52:31]>> You and I you and I get along very well.

[00:52:33]>> No, you you and I you and I just naturally talk, >> right? I didn't go through my notes. So, is there anything that we uh left on set questions that I didn't ask to explore the topic a bit more? Is there anything that you would like to add? Um just if anybody is really looking for their parent you be careful um go through a reputable place. I don't know if people are selling off DNA genetic tests now or not. There's been some questions with with one one of the DNA facilities if they are interested in finding their real family. Um this forensic genealogologist is amazing. Her name is Janet Ronaldo Travis. Um, and she's with www.dnaow.life.

[00:53:21]And I'm just giving her a plug and not getting anything in return. She just was a miracle worker. And you could spend thousands and thousands of dollars and years looking for your real family if you were in a closed adoption. And she did it in like four days. So, it was crazy. So, um, anyway, and if anybody wants to contact me, they can reach me, reach out to me at, uh, lauren park therapy or la Lauren at, uh, yeah, Lauren Parker therapy.com or my website is Park Avenue Therapy or Park Therapy and Park Avenue Mental Health Counseling.

[00:53:58]>> Yes, I do have the link here. Thank you for mentioning that. And I do love that you mentioned her, too. Yes. And I'll have her um the her name and the website on the podcast notes. So, we'll have it click there. So, we'll be better that way.

[00:54:12]>> I want to mention there you your services. So, individual therapy, couples, PTSD, adoption therapy, and yes, >> trauma, right? Yeah. All kinds of trauma.

[00:54:21]>> Yeah. Traum all traumas, too. Okay.

[00:54:23]PTSD, trauma. Yeah. Thank you for editing. And then park therapy.com will be on a podcast notes also. Um, anything else if you want? I know you gave your email. Uh would you like me to disclose your email too, Lauren? Uh within the podcast notes or only the websites?

[00:54:40]>> Um they can um there's a contact form.

[00:54:44]You think it's safer?

[00:54:45]>> You think it's safer? Okay.

[00:54:47]>> So, I'll have the Yeah.

[00:54:49]>> Thank you so much for your beautiful presence and the work that you do and we'll talk soon. We'll be in touch again. I would love to be in touch.

[00:54:56]Thank you.

[00:54:56]>> Thank you. I would too and feel better.

[00:54:59]Kisses.

[00:55:00]>> Yeah. Thank you.

[00:55:15]>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]