Justice Hagen steps down, Sen. Curtis considering running for governor

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[00:00:00]Time now for Inside Utah Politics with Lindseay Erics.

[00:00:05]>> Well, welcome on in today. Thank you for joining us. News for Utah Plus is where you can find us. If you stream on Amazon Fire, Apple TV, Roku, newer Samsung devices, any of those devices, just search for News4 Utah Plus, you will find our show there. Joining me today, Taylor Morgan and Liam Murray. Hi guys.

[00:00:21]>> Hello.

[00:00:22]>> It is good to be with you. Happy uh middle of May. Hope Mother's Day was lovely for everyone. Uh, okay. Let's dive right in. Uh, we've got some semi-breaking news off the top here, although by the time you're watching this, you've probably already seen it.

[00:00:35]Uh, Salt Lake City Council member Ava Lopez Chavez has vacated her seat on the city council. Essentially, what that means is, uh, an investigation by the city attorney found that she had a residence outside of her district. And state law says you have to live inside of your district in order to hold the seat you're representing on the city council. So, Leah, let me start with you. this she is the same council woman who also has some sexual assault allegations against her that the council is also investigating but what do you make of her essentially being ousted for a different reason here >> well I think like there are rules in a little bit >> what >> we should abide by them >> seems pretty cut and dry >> right and I do have feelings and again I think we use geographic representation Lindsay that means something and when you're doing that the people who represent you should actually live in the geographic area I think that they are representing.

[00:01:25]>> Yeah. Taylor, is there anything more to this than just on the surface that you got to live within the boundaries?

[00:01:32]>> Well, for her sake, I hope so. I mean, this seems to be kind of ridiculous. I mean, no offense to Ava. Boy, she was a bright, shining, you know, up and cominging star, right, in uh Utah and in Salt Lake City politics, right? A really young, hard-working, impressive candidate. Uh, you know, got right on the Salt Lake City Council on her first try. had a lot of uh support fundraising actually from even some Republicans right in Salt Lake City. So she had a very bright future ahead of her. But goodness gracious, this is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. You you have to know that when you're representing a specific number of district in Salt Lake City, you have to live in that district. She she should have known that, right? But then decided to rent out her place and get a different place. I I don't know what went into that decision. I I hope she had some reason for that, but boy, she had to have known she couldn't have gotten away with it, >> you know. And a little bit too, like I would just add, how much of what we're doing here in this country relies on people of good character actually doing the right thing? Because how would you have caught it, right? Like you require like does the city reporter's job is to check someone's house and where they're living on because of reporting, >> right? So it only got caught because other things and that's Yeah. So, I'm speculating here, but did she run for Congress perhaps because she knew she was eventually going to get ousted from the Salt Lake City Council because of this? Is that why she ran for Congress?

[00:02:53]>> Just a thought.

[00:02:54]>> I don't know.

[00:02:54]>> Putting it out there.

[00:02:55]>> Pure speculation at this point.

[00:02:56]>> I like to start rumors right here. Okay, >> we are good at that. Um, I haven't spoken with her, so I don't know her defense of that. I think our team is working to kind of get her side of the story, so we'll see if she agrees to an interview, but yeah, nonetheless, that's the latest uh decision out of the Salt Lake City Council. Uh moving to another topic here. Uh on Friday of last week, a major bombshell in Utah politics in that Supreme Court Justice Diana Hagen stepped down from the bench. This leaves three vacancies essentially on the bench because we're in the process of expanding the state supreme court and filling those two seats. Uh this comes amid the investigation into her personal life and allegations that she had an affair with a attorney on the redistricting case. Now, we've been round and round on this show about the JCC report, whether it should have been released, what happened here, but Leah, let me start with you. Um, for those who kind of aren't up to speed, essentially, we had an investigation that didn't kind of uh go to full investigation. We had top Republican state leaders coming out and calling for a full investigation after the JCC dismissed initial claims.

[00:04:06]when you saw the news that she resigned, I mean, was this the proper thing for her to do at this time or should she have waited to see kind of what came out here because she's maintaining her innocence still?

[00:04:17]>> Yeah, I mean, I think one, any issue that we're having needs to be had around the process by which this information got out because that is against state code. So, we've argued about that here before, but it is and we were already facteed.

[00:04:30]>> Talk about rule, >> state code, and we should abide by rules. whoever leaked it. Secondly, the judicial conduct commission, right?

[00:04:38]Maybe we question how they do investigations and what that looks like a little bit. My problem with this whole story is the only person who is being held to account for anything is Justice Hagen, right? There's no conversation around did the JCC do a good job.

[00:04:53]There's no calling for investigation into how the JCC does its job.

[00:04:57]>> Time out though, I am going to push you there. There is there is people looking into the processes of the JCC and how that report got leaked. So I do I do want to stop you that that is happening.

[00:05:08]But to your point that >> correct we're not as having as much conversation around David Raymond and >> right there's no robust conversation around that. So thank you for correcting me. I didn't know that third or whatever number I'm on in my rant that I'm having. But like the answer from the governor in what I read over the weekend was that people who are justices are not allowed, excuse me, not allowed to have a personal life. And I can't what more could she have possibly done? What is the judicial recourse? The minute she probably figured out there was a problem, she recused herself from the case.

[00:05:41]>> That's what you're supposed to do. No.

[00:05:42]>> Yes. So Taylor's eyes are rolling back in his head because what Leah is bringing up is a question of timing, right? Judicial timing. If she did indeed have an inappropriate relationship, does the timing matter in terms of if she had recused herself, if she didn't have any ruling on the case, then does that matter at that point what she did behind closed doors?

[00:06:06]>> It's a great question. This is really hard, right? Because this has become a political uh drama, so to speak. And when it comes to a justice, especially a state supreme court justice, uh we tend to see things through more of a technical policy academic light, right?

[00:06:23]We don't elect judges here in Utah. We vote to retain them. We haven't always voted to retain Supreme Court justices, right? So typically they have been uh kind of above the political fray, right?

[00:06:36]This is very very political. I I believe she did resign because of the political pressure. Ultimately, she resigned because she didn't want to subject, you know, her her family and close friends to discovery, right, in an investigation or potential legal action. She she didn't want all of the sort of details potentially. I'm not >> perhaps, but your point is right that some people are speculating she's admitting guilt here by stepping down.

[00:07:00]>> It looks that way. I'm not saying she is, but the optics are that she had an affair and she doesn't want to subject her family and friends to all of that personal information, you know, coming out and being part of a ongoing news cycle and political controversy. So, she resigned essentially to to spare everybody from that. And look, that's unfortunate. That's too bad. Um, she essentially has been a political scapegoat in this sense over the Prop Four litigation.

[00:07:28]At the same time, I don't know. It I'm not saying there isn't a double standard. At the same time, if you're a Supreme Court justice, a man or a woman, maybe don't have an affair with an attorney who regularly argues before the state supreme court. That kind of seems obvious to me.

[00:07:44]>> Yeah. But she probably didn't, right?

[00:07:45]And by the way, >> we don't know that. She hasn't denied having an affair. She she has denied that anything with that relationship influenced her decisions as a judge.

[00:07:54]>> She stopped being part of the case. And so do fact check me because right no you're right October of 2024 question I'm bringing up so we talking like long before any of the decisions that mattered that bothered everybody she wasn't even in play. So >> she's still a state supreme court justice right on an issue that is is essentially in front of the state supreme court on an ongoing basis.

[00:08:16]>> And that's where Governor Cox chimed in.

[00:08:18]Leah to your point is saying you're held to a higher standard when you're a sitting Supreme Court justice. And Leah, you're saying, but is she? Because I mean, in terms, >> can I say this? I'm fine with a higher standard, but we have to apply that standard consistently across genders and across political parties. Okay. So, if we're going to have a higher standard and we're going to really go after Judge Diane Hagen like this, we have to apply that same standard equally, right?

[00:08:43]Everyone needs >> and not just on the issues that made people angry. Correct. Right. Okay. So if there is a problem, it can't just be, well, I'm annoyed at your decision-m around Amendment D or around Prop 4, all this that's blown up. It would have to be all the time, right? So then what you're doing is imbuing the JCC with make sure they never eat ice cream on a Friday. I mean, a little bit >> essentially, it's hard, right? Because the chair of the JCC is also Diane Hagen's best friend. The chair, she recused herself, right, from that investigation into the uh alleged affair. But again, it's look, Utah politics and Utah judicial system is a very shallow pool with a lot of big fish, right? But to Leah's point, what were the steps that were supposed to happen short of don't have this relationship?

[00:09:30]Let's just assume the relationship if for the sake of argument, assume it if it happened, what were the steps she was supposed to take and what did she do wrong?

[00:09:38]>> She probably did everything right, Lindsay, and she is simply being punished for a political issue. I think that's what's happening. This is political. This isn't about her doing something right or wrong really. I think it's just about the politics of everything happening right now between the legislature and the Supreme Court.

[00:09:54]>> And a little bit she's the only one being punished. So the person she had the affair with, we're not talking about whether that's a problem. Right. Correct me if I'm wrong. Right. So I just >> Yeah.

[00:10:04]>> A little bit.

[00:10:04]>> And we should mention too, I'm sorry. We should mention that she was on the ballot this November for retention and there has been a lot of chatter about uh a wellfunded no campaign uh vote no on Hagen for November that could have gotten messy and ugly and expensive.

[00:10:23]>> So are we still going after Peterson then? Cuz Peterson and Hagen are both up for retention.

[00:10:29]>> Okay.

[00:10:30]>> Sorry. Coleman. Sorry, not Peterson.

[00:10:32]It's >> Coleman. That's right. I I think so.

[00:10:35]Although that ballot campaign now becomes a lot more difficult to cut through the noise without the Diet Hagen story. So we'll see, >> right? Because what you need is a scandal.

[00:10:43]>> So Hagen may have saved Pullman also by resign. There could have been a lot of good reasons for her to resign. Again, it's all political. I'm not saying she did anything wrong or she's a bad person. She's probably an excellent, brilliant judge. She I'm sure she is.

[00:10:55]She got to the Supreme Court, right? So I feel bad. It's it's unfortunate.

[00:10:59]>> Yeah. Looping back, Lindsay, to your question earlier when you asked like, is it the proper thing to do? The problem that I have is we're never going to have a conversation, right, around what it is that we're talking about. We cannot possibly mean that humans who are judges don't get to have a personal life. That can't possibly be the right answer.

[00:11:18]>> And we will never get to see any late night spicy text messages through discovery. We'll never really know what happened.

[00:11:23]>> Some of us journalists are working on this, okay? So, stand by. That's the conversation we need to have, right?

[00:11:29]Like to what extent we hold these judges to a higher standard, what does that mean? What is the rules? Like that's how you right.

[00:11:38]>> And so essentially we're saying now any relationship between judges and attorneys in any sort of capacity is >> I think that's a little too expansive, >> but it's a problem because you said the JCC chair was her best friend, right?

[00:11:52]Like so the answer is now the minute these people who you said was a shallow pool and I was like it's a small town they all hang out together they are probably friends.

[00:12:00]>> Right. Conversations happen over lunch they're going to run into each other.

[00:12:03]Exactly. So the idea what are we talking about? When you become a judge you have to go live like in a vault and never speak to anyone. You can't coach your kids basketball teams. I mean like that can't be right.

[00:12:13]>> You can coach basketball. Just don't go home with somebody else's husband.

[00:12:17]>> And is Governor Cox's personal life off limits? Is that what you're telling me as a reporter?

[00:12:22]>> Of course not. Again, I what did I say?

[00:12:23]I said if we're going to have a higher standard, we have to expect everyone to live up to that higher standard. I also would argue that the standard for a Supreme Court justice might even be a little bit higher appropriately than say, you know, a legislator, but only if we apply that standard to everyone on the Supreme Court, not just pick and choose bas.

[00:12:45]And so then we kind of go, okay, justice is here. I just it just all feels like we had the wrong conversation about something that might be really important in the way that we do right our checks and balances.

[00:12:56]>> I mean again I think she did everything right. I think she followed the process.

[00:12:59]Um even her friend who was JCC chair recused herself from the I mean it appears that everyone followed the protocol here that they did the right things. But again that's the academic that policy side of this conversation.

[00:13:13]What really drives things here is politics and this is a political outcome because her personal situation got caught up in a very controversial political issue right now in Utah.

[00:13:25]>> We'll have to leave it there. We'll keep an eye on it uh for sure. Let's move to another topic uh related to politics and that is uh some possible movement from the good senator from Utah. uh this week got a chance to sit with the chief of staff of uh John Curtis's office and he told me and has kind of signaled publicly before that uh John Curtis is eyeing could be eyeing a run for governor. He's not ruling it out. He's not closing the door. Let me play this clip from uh Corey Norman, you guys, and then you can kind of react to uh this and a political article that came out kind of detailing uh Curtis's thoughts here. Okay, let's move to another issue that maybe our viewers out there haven't heard, but I run in political circles, so I have heard this rumor quite a bit that your boss is going to run for governor.

[00:14:17]>> Oh boy, >> what can you say?

[00:14:18]>> Oh boy, >> dear chief of staff.

[00:14:20]>> Okay, let me let me be let me be absolutely transparent with you, and this is true. My boss is 100% dedicated to being the best possible senator he can be for the state of Utah. Okay.

[00:14:33]>> But is he running for governor?

[00:14:34]>> I wouldn't I would be I would not be telling you the truth if I told you if I said that people don't call me because they do. And John Curtis has been he is an executive problem solver at heart. And my opinion, he would make an exceptional governor.

[00:14:52]Um is he running? Uh he hasn't said yes or no.

[00:14:57]>> But I'm not hearing you say no.

[00:14:59]>> I'm not I'm not saying he he said yes.

[00:15:01]said, "I'm not saying he he's going to say no, but I will >> but you're not closing the door."

[00:15:05]>> No, but I will tell you this, and this is the reason I'm not closing the door.

[00:15:08]John Curtis will serve where the people of Utah want him to serve. If that is >> I don't take no for an answer, guys. I love you in that clip.

[00:15:17]>> Just give me an answer. Just give me an answer.

[00:15:18]>> The answer is I'm not saying no.

[00:15:21]>> Right. What But what I'm hearing is, you know, if someone's not going to run, they say no. Right. Otherwise, they hedge their bets. I've been doing this in politics long enough to know how someone's answering a question. So, Taylor, what do you make of this? I mean, John Curtis has only been in the Senate for 16 months and he's considering leaving already. What does that say?

[00:15:39]>> John Curtis is a Utah boy. He pronounces uh Escalant the correct way. He I think >> Escalante.

[00:15:46]>> Escalant.

[00:15:47]>> So, I say >> do not say Escalante.

[00:15:49]>> Really?

[00:15:49]>> Do not. No. Uh if you drive your Subaru with your Ngene to uh go hiking down there, then you can say it that way.

[00:15:54]Otherwise, Otherwise, it's Escalant. Um No, John Curtis loves Utah. He's from Utah. He loves the mountains. He loves the wilderness. He's a big outdoor guy.

[00:16:02]Also, Cory Norman, I think, has like 3% body fat.

[00:16:05]>> Yeah, he runs Iron Man.

[00:16:06]>> Wow. That guy is felt. Um, I think John Curtis would be an incredible governor.

[00:16:10]Uh, uh, there's a lot of things happening here. If we look at the field of the names that were being talked about in the 28 race for governor, you know, there's not a really high-profile, well-known, highly regarded kind of centrist Republican in the field. There there really isn't anyone here in Utah on that bench that would fit that mold, so to speak. I think John Curtis would absolutely he would be highly competitive. I don't know that he would be the front runner that if he jumps in right away, but I think he would be neck andneck with Jason Chaffitz. I I think John Curtis doesn't love DC. And who would the US Senate? I mean, come on.

[00:16:44]It's Congress. How much fun can that be really?

[00:16:47]>> Yeah. Leah, what do you make? I mean, does is this a is this a freezing the field type of situation where candidates try to get in early in order to kind of like halt everyone else? Can anyone really beat John Curtis? I mean, his allies telling Politico that it's sort of a two-way race between him and Chafitz, >> right? I mean, a little bit. Oh, yeah.

[00:17:03]That you just said Chaffit's name. I feel like we are hearing big names. So, a little bit if you are at all interested, this is what um in academics we call it the invisible primary season, right? So this is where you're like before we're running we are shoring up endorsements we're shoring up money we're making sure people are thinking about us right so I don't know that it freezes the field Lindsay but it actually make you're in play right >> the donor class is out there deciding who >> the Utah business kind of centrist crowd like the the big Utons uh who have a lot of influence in pole all are putting pressure on John Curtis to consider a run and the nice thing for Senator Curtis is he would not have to leave the US Senate to run. It would be midterm for him. And so if he were to not win the race for governor, he could go back to the Senate.

[00:17:53]>> No harm, no foul. No harm, no foul.

[00:17:55]Yeah. I didn't think about the lane either.

[00:17:56]>> You know, I don't know that he would hate being governor in Utah for the Olympics in, you know, 2034. That could be attractive as well.

[00:18:02]>> Interesting. All right. Lots to watch there for sure. Uh >> but I also think, sorry, just before you go there, >> please.

[00:18:08]>> I would think that you would rather as a politician, if we're thinking about like kind of levels, right? you'd rather be in the US Senate and your next executive position should be president, right? So, you should see a senator looking for that. Sure.

[00:18:21]>> Um, but a little bit, we don't get presidents from the state of Utah.

[00:18:24]Smaller state, so I don't think >> Not yet, Leam Murray.

[00:18:27]>> Not yet.

[00:18:27]>> I've heard the opening line of Governor Cox's book is I'm not running for president, >> which means he is.

[00:18:34]>> Um, but in writing, >> if you're being strategic and what I heard Norman Cory Norman say there was he's an executive at heart, right? Like first job I thought was made decision maker. Yeah, put that on my LinkedIn.

[00:18:45]>> Yeah, if that is the thing, then maybe governor is >> right the right next step.

[00:18:51]>> Yeah, I I just think John Curtis is a again, he's a Utah boy. He loves Utah.

[00:18:55]He is Utah through and through. I I think he would be an incredible governor. I think that would suit him really well. I'm not saying he isn't an effective US senator. I I really think he is. I I think he is encountering a challenging dynamic right now working with Utah's senior senator uh in the Senate. I think that is a difficult challenging thing uh for anyone frankly uh but especially for Senator Curtis. He just loves Utah. He loves the local issues here. Uh he's always been out and about on the ground uh in this state especially when he was in the US House.

[00:19:24]I think he is just made to be governor of Utah. I think that role would fit him really really well.

[00:19:29]>> I don't know. You maintain your Washington DC contracts while you're governor. Maybe you chair the Western Governor's Association or the National Governor's Association, make some more executive decisions, and then there's an a higher executive office in your future, maybe.

[00:19:42]>> Then there's a path to that maybe. Yeah.

[00:19:44]>> Right. You can go from governor to president. So, who knows? All right. We shall watch. Uh finally here on the program today want to uh circle back to the Boxelder County data center and specifically the conversation I feel like maybe isn't happening as much as we're fighting over land use and water use and power and all those that conversation is certainly important but want to talk to you guys about the oversight on Maida. So Utah's military installation development authority this is a legislatively and um statutoily created authority that has taxing authority and bonding authority. they can essentially go into our communities, section off some land, uh use it for military purposes, and try to develop it economically to help raise money essentially for our military installations. Um Taylor, what what in your mind um oversight exists for Maida and does there need to be more?

[00:20:36]>> Well, I think Maida, the way you characterize Maida, I think is not fully complete. I think Maida, >> do correct me. Well, MIDIA doesn't just doesn't raise revenue for just the military, right? Maida's actual primary purpose is to uh protect and look out for the local economies and to to oversee these large private public military related installations and developments. Their real purpose is actually to look out for the local taxpayers and the local communities and economies in places where these kinds of projects could be developed. And so that's exactly their role uh in this the data center agreement between you know with Maida and with the state with the military and with Stratos. Um I I think transparency is always important. Um I think Maida is set up as a uh oversight body themselves. I I believe the legislature and the governor have some power uh to essentially you know direct Maida. I don't know. I don't know Lindsay. I think this is really the first time that people have even heard the acronym MIA. Has anyone even known about Maida? But MIA MIA came about in Utah back uh when Hill Air Force Base, right, came to the state. It was set up to make sure that Hill Air Force was base was done in a responsible way that benefited Uton's residents, taxpayers, right?

[00:21:55]>> I think they've done a great job and I think they are being made out to be something they're not in this data center controversy. What do you do you want to elaborate on that or Leah you can take that point like >> yeah no I was just going to say when you ask Taylor if it needs more oversight and the answer is they clearly are very effective right so they can move things >> through quickly um we've kind of talked about this around the data center in a way that other governing agencies cannot so a certain extent if MIA is supposed to operate to protect local economies visav their relationship with the military then it's almost like you don't want more oversight because that might hamster >> I think MIA is the oversight body frankly right I think it's Maida's job to oversee these kind of projects right >> and themselves in making the decision about those projects >> now I don't think anyone would argue I'm certainly not arguing that MIA handled this the right way >> no no you're not but it's just like none of us have heard of it and it clearly has a ton of power yeah right >> and it's appointed by five members of it are appointed by the governor the legislature gets one or sorry the house the senate gets one so it's This is a top state leader appointed uh um entity, but only two of those Yeah.

[00:23:08]Only two of those are elected officials.

[00:23:09]So technically the Senate President and at this juncture, >> but they're all the other appointments are put there by elected officials.

[00:23:15]Correct.

[00:23:15]>> Governor >> by the governor >> largely by the governor. I mean it reads and feels like >> Yeah. It's like Yeah. cabinet, a commission.

[00:23:24]>> So yeah. So I think in this scenario, you know, we've seen MIA kind of come in, make this deal, you know, behind the scenes and then kind of not even roll it out, but like, oh yeah, Boxelder County, we need your permission here on some things. And >> I don't think that's how it happened. I think might has been working on this for 6 months. Uh the again this is about the public knowing well legislators knew the governor's office knew the Utah legislature passed significant bills in the 26th session uh dealing directly with his data center in Boxelder County because MIDA was working with legislative leadership on this. Uh however your point is absolutely correct when it comes to the public should the public know I guess >> we all should have known about this 6 months ago. We should have known about this a long time ago.

[00:24:08]>> We should have all been tracking why they existed.

[00:24:10]>> Yeah. There should have been a significant public outreach and education campaign by Maida, by the legislature, by the governor's office, right? Uh voters should have known about this.

[00:24:20]>> It's just incumbent on them to make it known or should there be some requirement that they make things known.

[00:24:27]I I understand there's a business element, right? You can't post all your deals and all your negotiations. Fine.

[00:24:31]>> I imagine a lot of that has to be kept confidential.

[00:24:33]>> Sure. Sure. And that's not what I'm suggesting. is just sort of at what point should this have been made public and and who whose responsibility is it to do that?

[00:24:43]>> I think it's case by case.

[00:24:45]>> Yeah.

[00:24:45]>> Right. Again, how many times have we talked about MIA before this data center?

[00:24:50]>> I didn't know it existed. So, I was one of the people who did you and every other very much involved in a lot of different developments, too. So, yeah.

[00:24:57]Interesting. All right. We'll leave the discussion there for today. Taylor Morgan, Liam Murray, always appreciate your insights. Producer Peter's been here, too. I haven't had a chance to pull him in.

[00:25:05]>> I sure have. Well, and I didn't insert myself into the conversation. We're all facts. I mean, like, listen, I'm right here. Excuse me.

[00:25:12]>> He's just been yelling at me to wrap it up.

[00:25:14]>> I did have to fact check a couple times.

[00:25:17]So, I did Peter's job for him.

[00:25:18]>> I hate to be the one that makes us go even longer here. But now I just have to ask Taylor, can I say Escalani?

[00:25:23]>> Nope, you cannot.

[00:25:24]>> No. So, Escalant.

[00:25:25]>> Escalant.

[00:25:26]>> Hold on. Are you a register? What does your party affiliation do?

[00:25:29]>> I I don't think I can answer that. Okay.

[00:25:32]>> Don't even ask him.

[00:25:33]>> Okay. Well, if you're in that area and you're not driving a Prius or a Tesla, you could >> I Yeah, you need to say Escalant. It's Escalant. Okay. I I learn new things as a transplant every day.

[00:25:45]>> Yes. Brush.

[00:25:47]>> It's Utah culture, y'all.

[00:25:48]>> Escalant.

[00:25:49]>> Yeah. Respect it. Come on.

[00:25:50]>> Okay. Well, Taylor's the only one who gets to make the rules around here, apparently.

[00:25:54]>> Obviously, I am the Republican.

[00:25:56]>> Okay. Uh we will leave it there. Uh thank you both. Watch Inside Utah Politics this Sunday 8 a.m. at 4 p.m.

[00:26:02]Congressman Blake Moore will join us and we'll talk about a few other topics as well. So, we'll see you there over on ABC4 at 8 a.m. and 4 pm and we will see you here on this program next time.