HARMONY OF MIND: Psychotherapy & Stigma with Prof。Etheldreda Nakimuli Mpungu

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:00]Hello and welcome to the Harmony of Minds podcast. Now, Harmony of Minds is a mental health initiative that talks about mental health awareness. We talk about mental health awareness, we're talking about culture, we're talking about innovation, we're talking about um and education and we're talking about uh any form of knowledge that we can get out there. Uh when we talk about the podcast, we're talking about stories um of people that can give us the information that we need. Stories of those that are in the creative sector that can tell us their story of how they've been maneuvering uh their journey with maybe mental health or maybe any struggle they've been having, their resilience journey, how have they overcome. And the reason as to why we want to talk about uh mental health is so that it can help a creative out there who is struggling, probably burnout, fatigue, depression. And we are here for you to tell you that story so that you can get encouraged, be empowered, and feel like you are at home. Today, we are having an amazing, amazing personality who is here with us to us. Uh she's called uh Dr. Ethelred Natchimully and she's going to be talking a lot like we've just been talking before we started, and I'm like, "Okay." Now, I'm like, "Okay, now."

[00:01:17]>> [laughter] >> Yes, please, doctor. Please, tell the people um who are you uh beyond what I have been just saying.

[00:01:24]Yes. Well, first, uh Jacqueline, thank you so much for inviting me to this space.

[00:01:29]>> I'm obliged. This gives me an opportunity to share my knowledge and skills and in doing so, I'm fulfilling my life's purpose. So, it becomes, you know, for me, it's very exciting, very fulfilling to come in these spaces and talk about mental health, which is actually a passion of mine.

[00:01:49]So, um I am Ethelred Natchimully, as you have said. Yes.

[00:01:55]>> I have served in the mental health sector for the last 25 years.

[00:02:00]>> First with the Ministry of Health at the National Referral Mental Referral Hospital, Butabika, for 12 years. Then I moved to Makerere University, Department of Psychiatry. I served there for maybe like 12 years or so. And then I pivoted and I went to the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

[00:02:20]I'm based at the Medical Research Council in Entebbe.

[00:02:23]Now focused on research on culturally sensitive psychotherapy. And that and how that works for our people.

[00:02:31]>> Actually, you've talked about cuz I I I said what what we're going to discuss may change cuz you talked about culturally relevant psychotherapy.

[00:02:39]>> Absolutely.

[00:02:39]>> Please tell us more cuz we're having a very interesting topic about that. Yes, about the cultural relevance for why we should why we should involve our culture into therapy. Yeah. Yes.

[00:02:52]>> [sighs and gasps] >> So you know, first of all, psychotherapy is the first line treatment for the common mental health problems that affect one in four people in our population. One in four people.

[00:03:08]So that's like 25%.

[00:03:11]The first line of treatment is psychotherapy. But when I came into the mental health field, it was the least developed aspect of health.

[00:03:23]And I recall we would hardly hear anything about psychotherapy. It was just medication, medication, medication.

[00:03:33]But then when I started to read the text, it says, "Well, but the first line treatment is psychotherapy. Why why don't we do that?"

[00:03:42]You know? And then I also read that this was for mild to moderate and it could help prevent the progress to severe mental disorder. The >> Yes. Wow.

[00:03:54]>> So, I started feeling inadequate Mhm. uh sitting in Butabika waiting for people to come to Butabika with a severe mental disorder. I said isn't there something we can do? Yeah.

[00:04:06]You know, in the community identify these problems early Yes. and give the psychotherapy so that people don't progress to severe mental disorder. Wow. But then there was no psychotherapy.

[00:04:18]So I said well um this is a gap I am noticing in the field >> Yes. and I think when the opportunity presents itself I'm going to try and address this gap.

[00:04:33]Oh. So, then you address the gap. Yes.

[00:04:37]So, um for um a listener out there, um you know, like we've been talking about the psychological terms. What do you think a listener out there would think that psychotherapy is? Yes, cuz they may not know what is that term, psychotherapy. Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

[00:04:54]So, um psychotherapy in in in a very simple language uh kind of consists of two words, the psych and then therapy. Now, psych means the mind. Yes. Oh, okay. The human mind.

[00:05:10]So the therapy is for the human mind. And what our our viewers may not know or may be asking, but what is the human mind?

[00:05:23]What do you mean by that?

[00:05:24]>> Yes. And I want to take some time to explain.

[00:05:30]Um you see, as human beings, we experience the world around us through our senses. Okay? Our eyes see something. Yes.

[00:05:42]A signal is sent to the brain. The brain interprets, generates thoughts about what you're seeing. We hear something, Yeah. if it's good music, our again our brain interprets that and generates thoughts about the good music. If it's bad music, it will generate thoughts about the bad music.

[00:06:00]Yeah, so those thoughts that are generated as a result of our senses taking in the world.

[00:06:08]They They are They are invisible.

[00:06:10]>> Yeah, yeah. You can't touch them. Yeah, and then those thoughts trigger our emotions, you know? So, if you see something pleasant >> Yeah.

[00:06:22]the the thought that is going to be generated about it is going to be positive. So, you're going to feel good.

[00:06:27]You're going to feel happy or excited or >> thought is what triggers what you feel.

[00:06:34]>> Yes.

[00:06:35]So, now this this things that we cannot touch, the thoughts and the emotions, they are the ones that make up our mind.

[00:06:43]Yeah, and both of these drive our behavior.

[00:06:48]They actually also drive the way our bodies function internally. Wow. Yes, so that's the human mind.

[00:06:56]Okay? Now, the human our thoughts >> That important.

[00:07:00]>> [laughter] >> You see, our this head of ours contains the brain.

[00:07:06]So, of all the body organs, the brain is on top of the body, not so?

[00:07:11]All the signals that direct our behavior, our feelings, our thoughts coming from up here Wow. So, it's the most important body organ driving our lives. Okay?

[00:07:26]>> [laughter] >> So, what the viewers need to know that these mental processes, the thoughts, the emotions, they can get sick, to put it simply.

[00:07:39]Yeah, your thoughts can become sick. Okay.

[00:07:43]When they're sick, they're negative.

[00:07:45]Mhm.

[00:07:46]Okay? You start to have negative thoughts.

[00:07:50]Um I am ugly. I am useless. I will never become something.

[00:07:56]>> Not worthy. I am not worthy.

[00:07:59]Uh that girl looks horrible. I don't like her. You know, negativity.

[00:08:04]>> un- that the thoughts alone become unhealthy.

[00:08:07]>> The thoughts become unhealthy. You have used the right word.

[00:08:11]>> Okay?

[00:08:12]Then when you have an ill unhealthy thoughts, >> Mhm.

[00:08:16]they trigger unhealthy emotions.

[00:08:19]Yeah, true. They're they're going to trigger sadness. They're going to trigger anxiety or fear.

[00:08:26]They're going to trigger anger.

[00:08:28]Irritability. Irritability. And when those processes when those emotions become excessive, >> [clears throat] >> they harm our internal organs Wow. in the body. Wow. Just >> Okay? So therapy therapy of the mind >> Yeah. becomes important. Such that when our thoughts have have become unhealthy because of the negative experiences in the world, >> Yes. we can receive psychotherapy. We can heal those thoughts. They can be healed. We can heal our emotions and you know, bring bring them back to the normal.

[00:09:08]Okay? And when our thoughts and emotions are are balanced, then they drive us to do the good things in life. The the productive things. The things that help us.

[00:09:23]Yeah. So you've talked about balance.

[00:09:26]Uh cuz at first I thought you're supposed to have positive positive so when you talk about [laughter] When you talk about balance, does it involve both? It has to be at least a level amount of negative [clears throat] and also positive. Is that That's the balance you're talking about. Okay. Um the balance I'm talking about is that these emotions that we feel >> Yes.

[00:09:48]and the thoughts that get generated it's a normal process. That's how the brain works.

[00:09:57]Okay? Yes. So you can get a thought um let's say you can get a feeling of let's say jealousy. It's a normal feeling. It's normal to feel jealous. It's normal to feel sad.

[00:10:11]>> Yeah. It's normal to be angry when you're frustrated when things are not going well.

[00:10:16]But when these emotions become excessive That's the lack of balance.

[00:10:22]>> That's the lack of balance. When your thoughts are excessively negative you know? They're in that negative loop 24/7, Monday to Sunday, January to December.

[00:10:37]That is where the problem comes in.

[00:10:40]So we have to learn how to regulate Yeah.

[00:10:43]>> our emotions so that they don't become excessive they don't go so low Yes.

[00:10:50]>> and they don't go so high.

[00:10:53]Just that balance. Okay. You you've talked about like >> And therapy helps someone achieve achieve that.

[00:10:59]>> Achieve that. I was going to ask >> [laughter] >> and say how does someone learn to regulate? But when you talk about like therapy helps. So um actually coming still back to therapy um how does someone when does someone think they need therapy?

[00:11:15]Yes. So that it doesn't go to that extreme of what I become. When should they do? Absolutely. So now um it's it's going You know when you're affected >> Yes. when when your experiences in the world are negative, you know? What you're seeing is negative, what you're hearing is negative. You're hearing people backbite you. They say things that you never [clears throat] did. You know, when you look, you know, people are avoiding you or they are looking you up and down, you know? So, your your senses are taking in all this negativity.

[00:11:51]It's going to It's going to create negative thoughts within you.

[00:11:58]Yeah, with time the So, if you're in that environment chronically, okay?

[00:12:03]Uh let's say you're you're in a toxic workplace. Whenever you go to work, you get these negative experiences. Or you're in a toxic relationship. This is someone you are with every day, but he's minimizing you, he's abusing you, he's beating you, but you still have to go back to him. You know, so that chronic state.

[00:12:20]So, someone in that chronic state is going to be emotionally activated. It's going to be have an excess of negative emotions.

[00:12:28]And when that happens, there's a part in the brain called the amygdala, responsible for this emotional balance.

[00:12:37]If it becomes activated, excessively activated, it prevents another part of the brain, which is at our front here. It's called the prefrontal cortex, which deals with thinking, which helps us think clearly and plan. Okay. So, when you're in so many problems and you have all these negative emotions, you're so emotionally activated, you're not going to be able to think.

[00:13:00]You're not going to be able to make decisions.

[00:13:03]So, it's unlikely that this person is going to willingly get up and say, "Oh, I am I am so sad, I'm so down. Let me go for therapy."

[00:13:14]They can't do that. They're incapacitated.

[00:13:16]I'm sure you've come across an experience where you see somebody needs help. You try to go and and talk to them. Maybe let me escort you. They said, "No." Mhm. They refuse. They said, "No. Leave me alone." I want to be alone. want >> be alone."

[00:13:30]You know?

[00:13:31]They're in that state of excessive emotional activation such that they cannot think clearly. They cannot see reason.

[00:13:42]Okay? So, by themselves it's going to be very difficult for them to up and go.

[00:13:49]Such a person is going to need a support system.

[00:13:51]>> Yes, true.

[00:13:53]>> Yeah? If they have people around them you know, who are really their confidants, they trust them, they care about them.

[00:14:01]That person's role is to try and uh regu- emotionally regulate this person. You know, try to reduce that emotional excessive emotion they're feeling. And the way you do that is by empathizing.

[00:14:16]You know?

[00:14:17]So, such a person will need a close confidant to come and empathize with them, validate their feeling, let them know that they're not abnormal by feeling that way, but actually the feelings they have now or the overwhelm that they feel >> given the difficult experience that they are having, you know? Because they are human. This is how they are supposed to feel.

[00:14:48]It's like >> You un- You understand? Normalizing.

[00:14:51]That's what we call normalizing. You have to empathize and normalize.

[00:14:57]The moment you do that, this person is going to feel seen, is going to feel heard and understood. And that is going to have a therapeutic effect on their excessive emotion. Wow.

[00:15:11]>> They're going to start to calm down.

[00:15:12]They said, "Oh, so there's still someone who really values me."

[00:15:17]You know? That someone can really Uh, to me and tell me I'm not abnormal.

[00:15:23]That I That actually what I'm feeling is valid. That it is the normal response to difficult problems. Wow, this person must really care for me.

[00:15:33]Wow.

[00:15:34]>> So, that's how you get to people who are in that state. If you deal with them in that way, they're going to come down and their prefrontal cortex is going to be activated and they'll start to think clearly.

[00:15:50]And now start to follow your instructions. Wow. Yeah.

[00:15:54]>> So, when it comes to someone who is maybe in isolation and probably they are not They do not want to talk to anyone.

[00:16:02]And maybe someone there is listening and even maybe they're watching their phone they are alone. What are some of the maybe first aid or some things that they can do as maybe they are they they are coming to that their prefrontal frontal >> [laughter] >> frontal cortex Okay, frontal cortex starts to stabilize where they can maybe look for a friend, maybe call someone.

[00:16:23]What are those things that they can do in a meantime?

[00:16:25]>> Yeah. So, if anyone is out there and is watching us and is all alone, you know, with their phone and they feel the world does not, you know, understand them.

[00:16:39]I just want to tell them that what they're feeling is is valid. Is normal. Okay?

[00:16:48]That is expected. Those feelings are expected when you're going through negative experience, you know, when everything around you is not working, you know? It is normal to feel overwhelmed, to feel like no one cares anymore, yeah?

[00:17:06]It is normal to feel those feelings. And by the way, those feelings indicate that you're human. You know?

[00:17:12]But, I want to reassure you that there is help.

[00:17:17]You know, there is help. Uh you can be supported to get out of that situation.

[00:17:26]And for those who are listening, I would just encourage them, what is that smallest thing they can do right now for which they have energy?

[00:17:39]You know, can you reach out and text someone you trust that I need help. Yes. Yeah.

[00:17:48]Just that, you know. What is the smallest thing you can do to reach out and let somebody know you need help. All you have to text is I need help.

[00:18:00]Okay? So, if you have those people in your life, you know, I want you to do that right now.

[00:18:08]But otherwise, there are professional help helpers also available. I'm sure you have some contact >> Yes, I do have some contacts.

[00:18:16]>> you can share. And what I would encourage them that there is help.

[00:18:21]Reach out. If there is help, as doctor is saying, please reach out. Uh call some someone I think that you trust cuz some some people are in in situations whereby they around them there is no one they can trust. So, I don't know. I think that's why they need to go for professional help now.

[00:18:38]>> Yeah, that's where professional help comes in.

[00:18:40]Uh somebody who is not in their circle, but someone who's professional and trained and actually knows exactly how to bring them out of the situation.

[00:18:53]Wow.

[00:18:54]>> But my only reassurance is that it is possible to come out of this. Yes.

[00:19:00]Wow.

[00:19:01]You actually talking about us actually talking about someone not having someone to call it cuz we had a discussion about like community and how our culture was you first cuz you say it better like how culture was important then how it was formed and designed for wellness for mental wellness.

[00:19:23]>> Yes. Exactly. You you mentioned a very beautiful word word that our culture was designed for to keep us safe. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that.

[00:19:38]Um So you see as Africans Yeah.

[00:19:44]as Bantu we come from the Bantu group that's so.

[00:19:49]We have our philosophy Ubuntu Ubuntu bulamu >> [laughter] >> Ubuntu Ubuntu bulamu yes yes that's our philosophy the Bantu you know, I am because we are Thank you. You understand? So First repeat Dr. First repeat it for them cuz it's very important that someone listens this again to this word again.

[00:20:15]Yeah, so I'm speaking to to our origins you know, our culture where we came from we are from the Bantu people not so many of the ethnic groups in in this country we are Bantu Yes. and we we had our philosophy Ubuntu Yes. Yeah. Yes. I am because you we are we are you know, we don't exist in isolation you know, I exist because of others around me. I succeed because of others around me. I am healthy because of others around me.

[00:20:53]Wow. Okay.

[00:20:55]So that philosophy in itself you can see it is healing.

[00:21:03]Okay, you are never alone. You are not alone. There's somebody out there. Yeah.

[00:21:09]You know, that you can reach out to.

[00:21:11]There's somebody there who will see you, who will listen to you, who will understand.

[00:21:16]Okay? So, that alone generates positive feelings. Give you a sense of comfort.

[00:21:21]You feel that seed and validation you talked about.

[00:21:24]>> So, you can never be filled with negative energy.

[00:21:28]You know, because you're reassured of this system of people who are there.

[00:21:34]But, as you know, with modernization >> [laughter] >> Sometimes I be thinking, you know, like how we [laughter] used to be in class.

[00:21:42]Everyone like you have your book, I have my this. Yeah. I don't know. I I think that's right it reinforced that kind of mentality in us cuz I'm like some of us didn't even We didn't Majority of the Ugandans didn't even go to another country to learn this, but >> Yeah. for some reason.

[00:21:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, now of course with the modernization, the evolution of the civilization >> Yes. we have drifted away from that philosophy of togetherness.

[00:22:11]Back in the day our ancestors, they they did things in groups. Wow.

[00:22:15]>> Yeah. They hunted in groups.

[00:22:18]So fascinating. They were able to bring down animals that were bigger than them.

[00:22:23]Eh, I think that's why it was needed.

[00:22:25]>> And and provide for the family because they were working in groups.

[00:22:29]Um you know, they cultivated together.

[00:22:34]They cried together when there's sorrow, when there's death. You know how we you know, we all congregate and stay with the bereaved, you know?

[00:22:43]Um And so, you know, all those were support systems.

[00:22:47]You know, they were support systems to keep us to keep our emotions regulated, to create that sense that I belong.

[00:22:55]Yeah.

[00:22:56]>> I belong somewhere. I'm not alone. You know, whatever difficult it is, I can come out of it. Mhm. Yeah. So, but now with the civilization we have moved away from those groups.

[00:23:09]We used to live in extended families.

[00:23:12]>> Yeah. We are now in our single, what?

[00:23:16]Nuclear families. Me, my wife, and our children.

[00:23:20]Other Other people You know?

[00:23:23]>> become your enemies. Your cousins become your enemies.

[00:23:26]>> [laughter] >> Wow.

[00:23:28]>> [gasps] >> Yeah, so So, now, you see we have become It's very easy to become isolated.

[00:23:35]>> Mhm. You know, it's very easy to become isolated because now we have embraced this nuclear family from the Western civilization.

[00:23:44]And yet that's not who we are inherently. That's not in our DNA. Yeah.

[00:23:49]So, when we take on values that are not innate, are not within us, it causes a conflict within us. So, we are actually not at peace.

[00:23:59]within us ourselves.

[00:24:01]>> ourselves.

[00:24:02]>> we are against ourselves. Wow. So, how are we going >> [laughter] >> Wow. Where are we going Where Where are we going to get peace?

[00:24:12]So, we're going to be filled with this We have this conflict within us. It generates It's unpleasant. So, we are filled with negative energy. Yeah? We are angry people. You know, we are angry. We have so much anxiety.

[00:24:26]We are scared for the future. We are scared all the time.

[00:24:30]You know? So, these things are working against our nature. our mental health.

[00:24:37]Yeah.

[00:24:38]Wow.

[00:24:40]>> [snorts] >> Interesting, Professor. So, let's dive into depression.

[00:24:46]And I remember I read some part of your article and it was talking about like there are some people who can have medication whereby they can be mentally well, like depression is good, but then emotionally they are not there yet. It's what brings that kind of like thing whereby, according to the blood, or by I don't know how they check depression. You're okay, but then mentally you aren't well.

[00:25:13]Yeah, so yeah, that's a very interesting, you know, aspect that you're bringing up, but I want our listeners to to understand this depression thing. You don't wake up in the morning and you are depressed.

[00:25:32]Depression doesn't fall from the sky and boop Jacqueline, you you are depressed. You have depression. Uh-uh.

[00:25:39]So, let's understand how we move to depression. Okay. Okay?

[00:25:45]So, it all starts with our mental health.

[00:25:50]You remember I tried to explain the mind, made up of our thoughts and emotions. Okay?

[00:25:58]So, the those are the components of our mental health. So, we all have that aspect of mental health. Thoughts and emotions.

[00:26:10]>> Yes, and let's understand what is mental health. So, mental health is a state of well-being. Yeah, that that that term mental health.

[00:26:18]>> The term mental health. Let's start from there before we go to depression, because everyone has mental health, but not everyone gets gets what? Gets depression. And we want to understand how do we move from, you know, normal mental health and we get to depression. Okay. Yeah. So, mental health is a state of well-being where one is realizing your potential.

[00:26:43]One is able to realize your potential.

[00:26:45]One is able to cope with daily stressful events that is that are happening.

[00:26:51]One is able to nurture deep confiding relationships. You have meaningful connections with people. Okay? You're able to nurture meaningful connections with people. You're able to make decisions that build you up and you're working productively and making a contribution.

[00:27:08]So, when your thought processes are you have healthy thoughts, positive thoughts, they're going to drive they're going to give you this state of well-being.

[00:27:19]You'll be able to make good decisions.

[00:27:21]You'll be able to connect with people.

[00:27:23]You will be working productively. You'll be coping in a healthy way with challenges that come and you'll be on track to realize your potential to become that thing that you want to be.

[00:27:37]So, that's mental health. We all have it.

[00:27:40]You all have mental health. Yes, I don't want you to hear someone say mental health and then you're like, >> [laughter] >> Are you Are you calling me mad?

[00:27:53]That's what people say.

[00:27:55]Are you calling me mad?

[00:27:57]You are not mental. Some Some people, when I bring about these conversations on mental health maybe in a WhatsApp group, you you see someone typing, "Don't tell us your those mental health things of yours."

[00:28:08]>> [laughter] >> Wow, that stigma is so loud. That's the ignorance, my dear. The lack of knowledge. I mean, how can you say, "Don't tell me those mental health things of yours" as if you don't have mental health.

[00:28:22]What is that? Well, it's just the [laughter] state of your thoughts and and mind and emotions. Yes, which you have. Yes, which you have. You don't get angry. You don't [laughter] get happy.

[00:28:35]So, you see the lack of knowledge.

[00:28:38]Mhm? The lack of knowledge. So, now our mental health lies on a spectrum. A spectrum is like a one line like this, eh? One with two extreme ends.

[00:28:47]>> Yes. Yes. So, one extreme end, mental health is excellent. 100%. You Everything is going on well. You're on track to achieve what you want to be.

[00:28:56]Papas. You know how to cope, you know?

[00:28:59]You make decisions that are building you up. You're working productively.

[00:29:03]Excellent. Yes. Yes. That's the one extreme end. Then the other extreme end, your mental health is broken. Wow.

[00:29:10]That's where you have depression now.

[00:29:13]So, depression has that Is that the extreme end?

[00:29:16]>> end. So, now when you say let's talk about depression, you can see we're starting at the extreme end. How about now in between here? Who is in between here?

[00:29:28]Between excellent mental health and then the depression where someone is completely broken up. Wow. So, all of us, we're on that spectrum. Somewhere.

[00:29:38]Someone is Someone is fitting somewhere.

[00:29:40]>> We are all lying on some spectrum. Some are in Botanica. They're at the extreme end. Others are excellent, flying, achieving. Everything is fine. They're at the extreme end. But there are some of us who are in the middle.

[00:29:55]We are struggling. Our mental health is poor. But we're not yet to that into depression. Yes. Yes. You understand?

[00:30:03]So, that's what I mean by saying you will not wake up and you're depressed.

[00:30:07]You will not wake up one day and you're depressed.

[00:30:10]No. No. Like this. No. You will shift slowly but surely. Without noticing.

[00:30:16]>> Without noticing?

[00:30:17]From the other extreme excellent end, things start to happen. What shifts us on that mental health spectrum? It is the stressful problems in life. If we don't know how to manage them. Remember the balance you say that we have to maintain?

[00:30:34]If we don't know how to contain our excess emotions, how to contain our thoughts, Yes. so that they don't lead us to bad actions.

[00:30:44]That shifts our mental health.

[00:30:46]Slowly but surely, as things are happening, things are piling. Today this happens, today the other one, today the other one, and you do nothing. You don't know stress management. You have never heard about stress stress. You're [laughter] You're someone >> know what's happening. You're someone who doesn't want to hear anything mental health.

[00:31:03]Ah, you take away your mental health things. Are we mad here? We're not mad here. Don't tell us those things.

[00:31:09]Okay? So, then how would you protect your mental health to make sure that it stays at the excellent end? How would you do that?

[00:31:17]Okay?

[00:31:18]So, stressful problems pile up one by one one by one. They push you along the spectrum until you get to depression.

[00:31:29]>> end, depression.

[00:31:32]Wow. Yeah.

[00:31:34]Wow. So, that is the process. That's how it happens.

[00:31:38]It goes slow but surely.

[00:31:41]>> Slowly but surely.

[00:31:43]Actually, talking about depression, cuz that's with me I had I had like an issue with depression whereby it was even hard to get out of bed. I would stay in my bed for like 4 days. I had to fast.

[00:31:53]You're shaking. You have to eat because you have to You have to leave.

[00:31:56]>> You have to to leave. Your energy has left you. Mhm. So, you're like, let me just take some sugar. Let me Mhm. Wow.

[00:32:03]Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:04]>> Wow. Interesting. But how does someone What What should someone be looking out for? Mhm. Cuz cuz someone be like, oh, maybe I'm depressed. Like is there some some of those things that whereby someone would say, I think I need to check on myself to see Yeah. if I if I'm now starting to reach to the extreme of the negative of mental health.

[00:32:25]Very very good question. The first thing acknowledge and understand what you're going through.

[00:32:34]Accept.

[00:32:36]Find time and reflect on your life. Mhm.

[00:32:39]What is How is my life going? How is my relationship? Yeah.

[00:32:43]>> Is everything moving smoothly?

[00:32:45]>> And how is my work relationship with colleagues, with Is everything fine there? Mhm. Or are you experiencing difficulties?

[00:32:54]>> Mhm.

[00:32:55]You must acknowledge or you must have an awareness of the stressful things you're going through. Yeah. Have you just lost a loved one? Maybe you've lost your your your major caregiver. Yeah.

[00:33:09]>> Yes. Mhm. [laughter] Um you know, are you going through Have you just lost a relationship with a loved one? Yes.

[00:33:19]So, you try to understand what you're going through. Acknowledge the things that are hurting you, the things that are that are giving you a hard time.

[00:33:31]>> a hard time.

[00:33:32]>> Mhm.

[00:33:32]You know, because those are the ones that are going that are driving that will eventually drive you to depression if you do nothing about it.

[00:33:42]Okay? So, that's the first step.

[00:33:44]Acknowledge your stressors. Then now, the second step, you must understand what you're feeling.

[00:33:52]Understand your emotions. You know, we talked about the emotions.

[00:33:57]>> Yes. Yes.

[00:33:58]>> [clears throat] >> And in in order for for you to to stop the progress to depression, Mhm.

[00:34:05]you must start to take care of your emotions. You must start to express the negative emotion, to release them, to get them out of your system.

[00:34:16]>> Yeah? Yes. And unfortunately, [clears throat] that can only be achieved with another human being.

[00:34:23]To to for the for the emotional part, it has to connect another human being.

[00:34:27]>> Yes.

[00:34:28]Wow.

[00:34:28]>> You have to connect with another human being to facilitate the process of releasing all these negative things.

[00:34:37]Actually, you talking about it, I remember there was a study uh by a certain psych- I've forgotten the psychology I could cuz I got the study in APA and they were talking about how nowadays people are relying on AI.

[00:34:49]Yeah.

[00:34:51]Yes. Yes. Wow. Yes.

[00:34:53]>> Yet you have to deal with another human being. And I told I I remember I posted to a group where we you know we do this psychotherapy, the people have trained and all that. And I told them you guys we're lucky.

[00:35:07]Because AI will never take our jobs.

[00:35:11]True.

[00:35:13]AI will never take your job. Because as a human you need another human being to see you, to hear, Yeah. empathize, validate.

[00:35:25]That is when you get that that relief.

[00:35:28]Yeah.

[00:35:30]You understand?

[00:35:31]Yes, we can try to do other things like to journal, okay, other ways of releasing the negative emotions is you can choose to journal, you can choose to write down all the negative things you're feeling, all the negative bad thoughts, I want to kill this person, I want to strangle them, they did this this this, you know?

[00:35:51]That can be an outlet.

[00:35:54]But I'm I'm telling you >> the one that will satisfy that innate need that we have within us >> Yeah, yes.

[00:36:04]to be to be seen, heard, and understood, it's another human being. True.

[00:36:10]Looking at another face and them telling you >> It's another human being. That is why we need to connect with people. Mental health, as I defined mental health, that ability to nurture deep confiding relationships, you have to have people, my dear.

[00:36:26]>> Yeah.

[00:36:27]Mhm? That one, there's no way we can avoid it. You must connect with someone in this world. You must have a confidant. You don't have And you don't need many. One or two is enough, and you're sorted. You'll be covered. But you need to have someone you will go to Mhm. and be able to bare your soul. Mhm.

[00:36:47]You know? And they will listen, they will empathize, and the the positive feeling that creates is enough to take away all the negative whatever um negative thoughts and and and and and and emotions. And that's what makes group therapy so powerful. Because in group therapy, you receive collective empathy, not just from one person.

[00:37:16]Okay, individual versus group. With group therapy, you have all these group members. They are listening to your story. They're empathizing with you.

[00:37:26]They are validating you. It is collective. It is so powerful.

[00:37:31]>> [laughter] >> Cuz you're talking about the same issue, and then they tell you about you're like they have it worse, or they have it worse.

[00:37:37]>> [laughter] >> I don't know. I think that's that's what happens, cuz you're here trying to think yours is so big, then someone says something that is so worse.

[00:37:45]>> That is another aspect, yeah. Yes. There is this thing of which I'm trying to tell you, collecting empathy and validation. That is one aspect that heals in group that's so powerful. But then also, this realization that problems are universal.

[00:38:00]Pain is universal. I have pain, but oh my god, so is my colleague here. She's going through pain. And when your colleague tells their story, you even say, Oh my god, you're going through that?

[00:38:12]Now you start to see that your problem is even small.

[00:38:16]Yeah? Is even small. So, that realization that pain is universal, It also generates positive feelings in people. Gives people hope.

[00:38:27]And you know, once you start to generate positive feelings, you're pushing out the negative. That's how depression heals. Wow. Yeah. Oh wow, thank you so much professor.

[00:38:38]Just we are having just I just want to talk about Stream East Films for those of you that are not aware of Stream East Films. So Stream East Films is a platform that has our authentic and our African stories. Please go on the platform, purchase rent, sorry, rent yourself a movie. So there is our latest movie there is God's God's grace.

[00:39:03]Godsend. So sorry.

[00:39:06]Our latest film there is Godsend. It is a Christian film and renting it is just 1,500 for a month. Oh wow. Yeah, so we have our African Ugandan actually, not African, Ugandan authentic stories that are there right there.

[00:39:21]If you want to get encouraged, you want to know things about our culture, everything is on Stream East Films. So yes, you just go there on your Google app and then you download or you can go on their website www.streameastfilms.com.

[00:39:37]Yes please professor.

[00:39:39]We are back from that.

[00:39:41]We are back from that commercial break.

[00:39:43]Um you've really talked about depression and it has it has broadened how I've I've always viewed it from even even looking at other people and seeing how they experience it and sometimes someone can come to you and they actually do not know they are depressed.

[00:40:02]But then cuz you talked about something that was very important is that first and foremost have to know how you're feeling.

[00:40:09]Then you have to acknowledge how you're feeling because there's acknowledging I'm feeling bad but then you do not know. Okay, you're feeling bad and what is it? So, um for a creative out there or someone out there per se, an innovator, an industry person who is maybe struggling with depression or an emotion that is extreme, but then they are trying to make life normal.

[00:40:35]What are some of the things, especially when it comes to maybe health?

[00:40:39]Cuz I don't know if food is involved in depression or it's just the thoughts.

[00:40:44]Is there like a diet that they cuz sometimes people can look for maybe you eat this, you'll feel better.

[00:40:52]Maybe some people can tell you go to the club, drink alcohol, you know, people are bringing all these other because they do not even know it's depression.

[00:41:01]>> Because they don't know it's depression.

[00:41:02]Yes, so they are giving these different sort of like solutions. Yes, but before we go actually into that, um for when it comes to a coping mechanism of maybe challenges of people that we go through in general really, what are some of the coping mechanism that you can give to someone out there so that they can learn that resilience? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:26]Yeah.

[00:41:27]So, um thankfully, Jacqueline, we've just completed a research on depression recovery.

[00:41:35]How does depression recover?

[00:41:38]This is a research we did in a thousand people, a thousand plus, in a very vulnerable state.

[00:41:45]They're living with HIV, they have depression, they face stigma.

[00:41:50]And we, you know, brought these people, a thousand of them and more, divided them into two. Half of them gave them the group support psychotherapy, and the other half we gave them just uh education, HIV education. And this research has enabled us to and we followed them up for 2 years.

[00:42:14]So this data when we look at it critically using advanced methods, we've been able to figure out how did these people heal their depression.

[00:42:25]Because we saw a dramatic decline in the depression after therapy.

[00:42:31]But 6 months later there were some people whose depression had returned and others continued to be well.

[00:42:38]So this research has enabled us to study critically how did depression recover.

[00:42:46]And the results are truly truly amazing.

[00:42:49]And you asked me if someone is out there and they're having depression.

[00:42:55]The only way your depression is going to recover the things you need top of the list is open up about your problems.

[00:43:09]Yeah?

[00:43:10]We call it venting.

[00:43:13]Yeah?

[00:43:15]Find a space. Look for someone and open up about your problems, about those things that are challenging challenging you severely in your life.

[00:43:28]You must release them.

[00:43:31]That's the gateway to recovery.

[00:43:34]Yeah?

[00:43:36]You release them. It's like dirt. You know, just imagine you have a wound that's dirty. Will it ever heal?

[00:43:42]They have to clean that wound fast.

[00:43:45]Eh?

[00:43:46]So in order for us the first the gateway to recovery we have discovered from Ugandan research >> [laughter] >> in our own context in our own context, African context the gateway to recovery is open up about your problems and release them.

[00:44:05]Let them go.

[00:44:06]In a safe space.

[00:44:08]Don't go to the radio or or to a podcast. I can't come here and now tell you all my problems.

[00:44:14]>> [laughter] >> I will not heal. Yeah. Because first of all, maybe the host of the podcast is not a therapist.

[00:44:22]>> Yes. That's true.

[00:44:22]>> So, you will not respond in ways that are therapeutic. That is wasted time and energy.

[00:44:28]Find a safe space where confidentiality is assured that when I open up and put my problems there, they will stay in that space.

[00:44:39]Yes. No one is going to take them out.

[00:44:41]Wow.

[00:44:42]>> Yeah? And now I can release and release and release. And the person who has given themselves to be a vessel of healing for me, yeah? Is going to empathize. Is going to validate. That's when healing starts. Wow. Actually, doctor, I think this you need to maybe emphasize cuz as Ugandans we're not taking therapy seriously.

[00:45:07]>> aware. We don't have the knowledge. We have not been given this to This has not been given to us as an option. Because how many times do you hear the Ministry of Health officials talk about this?

[00:45:21]How many times do you hear at your health center that they're giving a health talk about depression?

[00:45:27]Okay? So, it's because society has not been given an option that these mental health challenges can be healed. They don't know. And it's not their fault.

[00:45:41]And this is why you the work you're doing at this podcast is trying to change this. You're giving a voice to mental health. You know? That you know, mental health is is real. We all have it.

[00:45:56]It can get impaired, but there's a way we can repair. That's what we're saying.

[00:46:02]You know?

[00:46:03]That we can repair our mental health.

[00:46:05]How do we repair? We have done the research, thank God, we know. We know how to repair, Jacqueline. Wow. That's >> So, for anyone who's depressed out there, >> Yes. There is hope. The pathway to recovery, we know it. You have to take that path. There's no two ways about it.

[00:46:23]>> Yes. Okay? So, the first thing anyone out there is depressed is to seek emotional support.

[00:46:30]>> Yes.

[00:46:31]>> Okay? To, you know, if I know with depression you're down, you don't have energy. But if you can master some energy, the first thing you should do is to reach out to somebody that you trust.

[00:46:45]>> you're saving yourself.

[00:46:46]>> Yes.

[00:46:47]Reach out to With that little energy you have, force yourself. Make a phone call, send a voice note, let someone know you you need them.

[00:46:58]So, that they can come and be that vessel of healing.

[00:47:02]Okay? Or take you to a professional, you know, who will give you those things. A depressed person needs emotional support, needs to express those emotions, and then they need to accept their situation.

[00:47:19]Accept what they can control and what they cannot control, and let go. Yeah.

[00:47:23]Have you heard of that statement that you need to let go? Let go. The things we need to let go are those that we have no control over. True. 100%. This one, don't even waste your time.

[00:47:35]I have no control. Let it be. What do I have control over?

[00:47:39]Let me put in effort. Me.

[00:47:41]Yeah.

[00:47:42]>> The only thing you have control on is yourself.

[00:47:46]You can only change you. You cannot change your your partner if you're having issues there. Yeah. If you're having issues with your daughter, with your son, there's nothing you can do.

[00:47:57]Just because you gave birth to them, it doesn't mean you can control them and change. They are human beings in of themselves. They are independent people.

[00:48:06]You can never change them.

[00:48:09]Okay? That's one thing we have to realize. So now in that in that in that space of this you know, disharmony feeling deep feeling depressed, the only person you have is yourself.

[00:48:24]Okay? You are the only The only thing you can change is yourself.

[00:48:29]So that one when you accept that, it's going to accelerate your healing.

[00:48:37]And then guess what we found that helps initiate recovery? Belief in a higher power.

[00:48:43]True, I was going to ask about it.

[00:48:45]Knowing that as a human being you have limitations.

[00:48:49]>> [laughter] >> You cannot control everything. You know, you cannot control everything. As a human you are human.

[00:48:56]There are things you you can do. There are things you can't do. Those you cannot do, you surrender to the higher power. Whatever that higher power should be. It can be Allah, it can be Buddha, it can be God, it can be Jaja Mwa Ng'a.

[00:49:10]Whatever it is. Something that shifts control from you >> Yes. to something else.

[00:49:16]>> Yes. Wow. So you can surrender all these things that are not going on well and then have faith. Yes. You must practice faith.

[00:49:26]You know?

[00:49:27]>> That everything will be okay.

[00:49:28]>> Things will be okay. Wow. Because me I me I am dealing with what I I can manage. The higher power is dealing with those difficult ones which I cannot manage. So why should I move around with anxiety? Why should I have fear?

[00:49:45]Do you see how that uh concept takes away the fear?

[00:49:49]Takes away the worries.

[00:49:52]And then you can put energy to things that you can do. Mhm.

[00:49:56]Why won't you be well?

[00:49:58]True. True.

[00:49:59]>> Yeah. So, that's how we recover from depression. Wow. That's That's so powerful.

[00:50:04]>> That's the beginning of recovery.

[00:50:06]>> Mhm.

[00:50:06]Other things that you need to do what our what our research has done is to now work on Again, they're on yourself.

[00:50:13]Build self-esteem. Mhm.

[00:50:16]Build self-esteem. Your therapist is going to teach you how to build your self-esteem.

[00:50:21]>> Yes. Your therapist is going to teach you how to cope with stigma. Mhm.

[00:50:25]Because stigma is a driver of depression.

[00:50:28]>> Depression. That's true. Okay. You're going to learn practical skills. Problem problem-solving. Mhm. Problems will always be there. Yeah. We just need to learn the skills Mhm. to problem-solve.

[00:50:41]So, a combination of all that within no time Mhm.

[00:50:45]you'll be free from depression.

[00:50:47]Wow.

[00:50:47]>> And you'll be back on track Mhm. to do your wonderful music Mhm. wonderful art Mhm. and anything else you're creating. Wow. Wow.

[00:50:56]Again, because of of the discussion that we've been having, I'm seeing there is much more need of therapy awareness.

[00:51:04]Yes, mental health, but also people knowing that therapy is actually a tool that we need as people because we need an aid. And uh we need someone to help us navigate life. We need someone to give us advice. Mhm. I don't know if some people go to their pastors or priests for counseling. Go to someone that you know can be [clears throat] of help.

[00:51:24]>> Mhm. Uh but again, we have to know Please, let us feel safe for those of you in especially religious communities.

[00:51:29]Nowadays, things are happening in churches.

[00:51:31]>> Yes. Please, be cautious.

[00:51:33]>> Yes. Yes. But now, uh Professor, we you we we are already Okay, we're talking to creatives. How is um music dance How is How does Have you seen Have you done seen and research or done any research on how that helps with the mental health of an individual?

[00:51:53]>> Yeah.

[00:51:54]Yes, research has been done on music.

[00:51:56]>> Yeah. Uh personally I've not done the research but I've read research work of others Yes. that use music to promote mental health.

[00:52:05]>> Yes. And it is a great a great tool.

[00:52:09]Music therapy is very helpful and let me try to explain a little why it is helpful. Yes.

[00:52:16]Music dance music and dance.

[00:52:18]>> Yes.

[00:52:19]Um uh are rhythmic processes.

[00:52:26]Yeah? Rhythm. Eh?

[00:52:28]>> [clears throat] >> That's the keyword.

[00:52:30]So when those rhythms are repeated, you know, they regulate the nervous system.

[00:52:39]Okay.

[00:52:40]>> Okay?

[00:52:41]They also do another thing.

[00:52:45]Uh um those repetitive movements, you know, through dance, through music, when you engage in them, now your brain start, you know, all those nerves in in the brain.

[00:53:01]>> Yes. They they now concentrate on those activities. They have no time to dwell on the negative thoughts. Oh, they don't >> brain takes a break from the negative thoughts.

[00:53:13]It make Yeah, oh my Yeah, [laughter] yeah, it takes a break. Okay.

[00:53:17]>> Your brain is able to take a break.

[00:53:21]And it is able to reset. In that time you're in music, you're engaging in some rhythmic activity, you know, choreography, what dance, or even just other things that keep you busy with your hands, crocheting, knitting, making baskets, you know, all those things.

[00:53:37]They regulate your nervous system. They give your break your your your your brain a break from the unhelpful thoughts that are coming from stressful situations around you.

[00:53:51]Well, you know, I've always been knowing that, but you explain I'm like, >> [laughter] >> "Oh, like that that break." Yes. Yes.

[00:53:59]Yes. So, in in our group support psychotherapy, these are the things that we use in that therapy. You know, there is a time for music.

[00:54:10]There's a I mean, we teach people the crafts of the hands, you know, crocheting, making mats, you know, learn a skill.

[00:54:19]You get out of that thread when you've learned something.

[00:54:22]Yeah, that is going to that you're going to use to give your brain a break from any unhelpful thoughts from any stressors out there in the world.

[00:54:34]Okay? So, it becomes your tool to you know, support your brain to regulate your brain, to give your brain a break from negative thoughts.

[00:54:44]Actually, [snorts] you you talking about that remember how we we started before the podcast started of how you were like you you you in those days that was a routine waking up in the morning. I had to do my chores, do this. So, when was that time you were going to think about something negative cuz you're busy.

[00:54:59]You're always Your mind is engaged. Yes.

[00:55:02]Wow. Yeah. Wow, that's so interesting.

[00:55:04]>> Your mind is engaged in a positive way.

[00:55:06]But, now with our phones and social media, we are engaged in a negative way.

[00:55:11]You know, we are seeing people people are showing us their posh houses, their dresses. We now start comparing. We start to think, "Hey, mama, why don't I have that one? Oh, look at this one.

[00:55:23]When will I be this?" So, you go in that negative state. Social comparison and you're in that loop of negativity.

[00:55:32]"Oh, I don't have this. Look at this ones. Me, I don't have this. When will I ever Yeah.

[00:55:38]Wow. So, why won't we be in depression and anxiety? True. Which is very easy to given that circumstance.

[00:55:46]>> Yes, given the state we are in now with this technology and the continuous bombardment things on social media. Oh. So, now when it comes to the mental health state in Uganda, that is the spectrum that you talked about. What is What do you think is the future of the mental health community or the mental health sort of like dynamics in Uganda today?

[00:56:13]Are people more so when it comes to awareness? Is there Is there a hope?

[00:56:19]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, I think there is hope.

[00:56:23]There is hope. There is now more awareness. Yeah. Many Many many organizations are coming up and they're doing awareness in schools and you know, workplaces in the community. Yes. Yes, but we need to move beyond awareness.

[00:56:41]So, we need to move in a direction where we're giving people interventions that work for them. You know, for example, we have developed interventions that for our context, for our African context, you know. So, we now need to get these interventions to everyone who needs them. This is going to need training.

[00:57:00]So, people have to you know, um be have the humility, you know, to to say that I need to be skilled so that I take my clients through the right process of recovery.

[00:57:18]Yeah. So, this will need the our policy makers to come in to make it possible.

[00:57:24]Yes.

[00:57:26]Okay. To bring those those kind of like activations, teaching Yes, to you know, to like um bring these therapies in our in our in our hospitals, in our health centers.

[00:57:40]You know, it is the ministry that has to mandate all health workers to get skilled, for example. That's true.

[00:57:47]>> Okay? Because if the ministry doesn't say so, they won't take you seriously.

[00:57:51]>> No one is going to take it up. Yeah.

[00:57:54]>> Yes. But really, my message is that we are going to heal through other people.

[00:58:00]>> Mhm.

[00:58:02]You know?

[00:58:04]So, those health workers who are willing to be vessels of healing, >> Mhm.

[00:58:08]those religious faith leaders, >> Mhm. the pastors, Yeah. willing to be the vessels of healing depression, you have to come for training.

[00:58:18]That is very important.

[00:58:20]>> That is very important. Very very important.

[00:58:22]>> if we move in that direction, there is hope. We can wipe out this depression.

[00:58:28]I shall always remember telling a pastor friend of mine I was organizing my mental health concert. And he was like, "Jangu n'oyogere on'oyogera ku by'obutwa bw'obutwa bw'obutwa So, obviously I was not comfortable with that statement.

[00:58:43]But then I told him, "You remember there was a certain time where by every pastor used to talk about AIDS.

[00:58:50]Like it was a movement. And then I told him, "Now it's now the time of mental health. whereby whereby a mufti is talking about it.

[00:59:00]A pastor is talking about it. It's like literally everywhere. Schools are doing MDD.

[00:59:06]Fear mental health.

[00:59:08]>> [screaming] >> AIDS poems.

[00:59:11]Now is the time for mental health.

[00:59:14]Because now with AIDS epidemic now I'm more aware. There are already structures for when someone has an issue they know where to go to, TASO. But for mental health So, for mental health, the creatives are going to come in and play a big role to to get the message out.

[00:59:30]You know, make the comedies about mental health, about psychotherapy. You know, make those comedies and send out the message.

[00:59:39]Write the plays.

[00:59:40]You know, about mental health and how we recover from depression. Act that that that process of recovery. Someone comes in, they have depression.

[00:59:52]They go here, they are not helped, and finally they come to psychotherapy. They go through the therapy, they heal. Do that acting.

[01:00:00]You know, we'll get the message out.

[01:00:01][laughter] I I don't know.

[01:00:05]We're talking about it.

[01:00:07]You know, but as creatives, this is our mandate because we are vessels of society. We are vessels of stories that need to be heard, that need to be listened to. Because Professor can talk about it, but then as an artist you can elevate the emotion at least.

[01:00:23]You can elevate the thought at least because when someone sees someone crying, they they they remember an auntie that I think my auntie was was going through this. We we we weren't happy, but she was going through this.

[01:00:36]So it makes it a little a little bit better for the awareness and also the intervention that you you talked about.

[01:00:45]Ah, Professor, our time is fast spent.

[01:00:47][laughter] I have a lot like I'm seeing a lot so many I think we need a part two. Part two.

[01:00:55][laughter] That's that's for real. We need a part two. We'll come back and do a part two. Yes, you shall you shall promise us you you [laughter] promised us live that you'll come back for a part two.

[01:01:04]But Professor, thank you so much for being around here today. I truly I'm truly I'm humbled and appreciate you being here and giving us this information. Ah, but for a young creative out there or not even may not even be a creative per se, but for a young person out there, what message do you have for them? Mhm. Yes.

[01:01:27]>> [sighs and gasps] >> Um for a young person out there, Yes.

[01:01:33]um I want to say that um your mental health is the most important aspect of your health. Yeah.

[01:01:44]Uh get become aware about your mental health and protect your mental health. Mhm. You know? Uh get to learn how you can protect your mental health and practice those skills.

[01:02:00]Um you will thrive in in in ways that you have never known before if you prioritize your mental health.

[01:02:09]Mhm.

[01:02:11]Um thank you so much for that, Professor.

[01:02:14]Um then if someone wants to reach out to you, where can they find you? Where can they find Professor your work? Um yes, cuz >> Yes. people we really will want to know.

[01:02:25]Yeah. So, I I am focusing on two things right now.

[01:02:31]Mhm.

[01:02:32]Uh that is research, researching culturally sensitive psychotherapy Yes.

[01:02:38]for us Africans.

[01:02:39]>> Yes. We are still looking more in-depth Mhm. about how we heal. Yes.

[01:02:46]>> to be bringing you more about >> research how we recover Mhm. uh from from depression. So, there is the healing part and also there is the recovery part.

[01:02:58]Um Is there It's it's it's it's it's the same journey, Oh, okay. Okay.

[01:03:02]>> the healing process, which eventually leads us to recover.

[01:03:06]>> Okay. Um then the second thing I'm doing is to train. Mhm. I'm I'm training health workers in this group support psychotherapy so that they can go out there in the community and help as many people as they can.

[01:03:23]So my desire is to create those people, men and women, equal numbers of men and because our therapy is culturally sensitive.

[01:03:32]Men meet men groups men meet alone in their groups with a a male facilitator and females meet alone. And the reason of that is cultural differences in our in our roles leading to different stresses. Okay, and we have found it it works beautifully.

[01:03:50]It has brought men to therapy.

[01:03:52]So I know men come to therapy and they and they benefited.

[01:03:56]So my desire is to train more and more people who can do this work so that we can bring healing to our communities. Wow. Wow.

[01:04:06]>> That's so beautiful. The work that you're doing and from me and Harmony of Minds and Living Art Studios, thank you so much for the work that you're doing, uh mentoring and training people to do that work that even right now that the government is not I'm sorry, but they are not talking about it.

[01:04:25]And um we are going to be closing.

[01:04:28]And I'm telling just someone out there as Kobs Singye Jaclyn today is that healing is possible as you you've heard Professor Shasha say that healing is very possible. You cannot stay in that loop of depression for a very long time. So please pick your courage, pick hope from I do not know where, from the our roof where, and look for help.

[01:04:53]Send someone a message, "Hello, I'm not feeling fine. Hello, this and this and this."

[01:04:57]Please do that until we meet another time.

[01:05:01]Professor, please say bye-bye to them.

[01:05:04]>> [laughter] >> Well, it's been a great great pleasure having this conversation in this space.

[01:05:12]>> Yes, thank you.

[01:05:13]>> so wonderful and I want to thank you for the opportunity to help me fulfill my life's purpose.

[01:05:19]I am feeling so good right now. Wow.

[01:05:23]>> [laughter] >> Thank you guys until we meet again.

[01:05:26]>> Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

[01:05:28]Ah, she's