The reviewer provides a critical analysis of Percy Jackson: The Last Olympian, the fifth book in Rick Riordan's series, highlighting several key issues: the characters fail to mature despite being 16 years old, maintaining a 12-year-old mindset throughout; female characters, particularly Annabeth Chase, are portrayed as overly jealous and difficult, representing what the reviewer describes as unintentional misogyny; the narrative structure becomes less coherent with deus ex machina moments and dream sequences delivering information; and the book's treatment of redemption and character responsibility raises philosophical questions about whether a single heroic act can redeem someone who has caused massive harm. The reviewer ultimately rates the book as 'fine' but notes that the first three books were significantly better, and that the series lacks the depth and growth that would make it as beloved as other fantasy series like Harry Potter.
The Battle For New York City?!? | The Last Olympian | Full Book Review | Nerdy Wordy Book ClubAdded:
What's up, internet? My name's Nerdy and this is the Nerdy, the Wordy, the book club. That's right. We are live back on this channel after taking last week off unceremoniously to talk about Percy Jackson 5, the last Olympian, the finale of the original Percy Jackson series. And um I'm excited to sit here and talk with you all. Thank you all for being here live this morning. We did not cover Game Changer last week. Sorry about that. Um, that's all I'm gonna say about that.
Blue says, "Are we supposed to read the books before book club?" Blue, have you also not read the Percy Jacksons?
Um, yeah. Yeah. If you did not check out the video on the roleplay relay, I did have my craziest card pull ever. I I had my I had my many hundred dollar moment over there.
The card is not close enough that I can show it to you now, but everyone else has read the has to read the book except Blue. Clarice, I know you have not read the book, so I don't I don't even want to hear it from you. I don't even want to hear it from you.
All right, y'all. Let's talk about Percy Jackson, The Last Olympian. This is my review for the book. It's my review.
It's nobody else's review. And just because I say things in this review does not mean that you have to feel them, does not mean that you have to agree with them. And they do not mean that you have to change your opinions of the book because I know that this book is beloved and this series is beloved. And I don't want to sit here and make you think that because I have opinions that you have to change your opinions.
Okay? I just want to I want to get that out first.
I'm I am a little bit confused.
I I I'm a little bit confused about the love for this book in this franchise.
And it's not that it's bad. Okay, this book isn't terrible. It just it is less of a book and more of a series of deasx machinas of characters you've met in other books just kind of showing up to be present in the finale.
And Percy Jackson is just sort of present for a series of events happening in New York City around the idea that they're in a battle that he doesn't have that much to do with to be [laughter] honest and he doesn't precipitate much of the action in the book. [snorts] But we should get into what the book is.
Percy Jackson, The Last Olympian, takes place a little bit after the last book, The Battle for the Labyrinth. Percy Jackson is uh part of a strike team with um a young man who unfortunately passes in the mission. Uh what? Oh my god, what is his name? I And as soon as I have to talk about it, I'm blanking on him. Um Percy Jackson. And I need to just pull up like a [ __ ] chapter summary, but they are trying to take down the cruise ship that is the Princess Andromeda, the um uh Charles Beckondorf. Beckondorf. God damn. So Percy and Charles go on a mission to take out a cruise ship. Charles dies.
It's very sad. Honestly, I I really liked the opening decision to have a a friend and like compatriate die early in this novel. I think that it was a nice way to make the book feel like it was trying to grow up. It's not, which is kind of the biggest problem with the Percy Jackson series as a whole is um that Percy Jackson is still 12 years old. Percy Jackson is written for 12 year olds and so the fact that he is now 16 is not apparent in the books. These characters have not grown up at all from where they were in book one. And they've changed. Like the the experience of the books has changed them, but they are not older kids yet. They're they're not in any sort of teenage phase. They're all 12.
And that that nothing makes that more apparent than like the way in which Annabbeth is just absolutely ruined by the final two books of this series and goes from being like one of the more interesting characters in the first three books to being just an absolute drag in the last two cuz Ric Ryarden can only write women one way apparently which is that they're all just kind of mean and jealous.
And I I I'm not like blaming like the character Annabth. Like I am like looking at Ric Ryan and being like why are why are the women in these books all just sort of rough and like why are they all defined by jealousy?
Right.
It's so fascinating how there's there are so many I mean I guess like Rachel Dare kind of isn't defined by jealousy.
She's maybe the only one. And it it's because I don't think Ric Ryarden knew how to get out of the love triangle easily. And so she had to just be like, "No, Percy, you were always meant to be with Annabeth and I was meant to be the oracle." And so we don't have to do sort of the like complicated stuff of the fact that we have feelings for each other.
But like Annabeth in the last two books is just jealousy to the point that it becomes absurd. Rachel at the end of book four really helps them. like really shows up and helps them survive the battle for the labyrinth. Really does her part to become to to get some grace from Annabeth that Annabeth never shows her. Annth this whole book is just sort of like Percy, I'm going to fight by your side, but I am mad at you about that mortal girl who's nice to you when I am mean to you all the time, but I want you to like it.
It's very confusing. We meet Pphanie. We go to hell. We meet Praphanie. Praphanie is like so jealous that she doesn't even want to talk about Nico's mom even though Nico's in the room and Nico's mom is so relevant to the plot of the book.
But the reason why we can't talk about the plot of the book is because Pphanie is just the crazy jealous woman. And I I understand the concept that like we're talking about these Greek gods who cheat on their wives all the time and and Greek, you know, women who cheat on their husbands all the time. And I do understand the idea that jealousy exists within all of these relationships, but none of the men are defined by their jealousy the way the women all are defined by jealousy. And I do it really it really hurts the book for me. It it it it drags it down quite a bit the way the women are treated. But anyway, so Beckondorf and Percy go and they blow up the cruise ship. Um, this has no impact on the later plot of the book other than uh Beckandorf is dead, but like you know it is a sad and like it's a very impactful it's honestly the best part of the book in my opinion.
It's the best written part of the book.
uh Percy coming back to camp. Other than the fact that again the the the Percy coming back to camp emotional stuff is a little bit ruined by Annabth being jealous and weird towards him about Rachel when like he just lost a friend and you're like Annabeth Beckondorf just died like [laughter] what who [ __ ] cares about Rachel right now? Beckodorf died. And and then Percy immediately finds out that the prophecy is like, "Hey, Percy, you're going to die in a week. [laughter] You're going to die in a week, brother."
And Annabeth is like, "I can't believe you're talking about mortal girl." And Percy's like, "Beckindorf just died. I'm going to be dead in like seven days. Is this really how we want to spend our time?" And I just I I do find that to be kind of wild. We then start the side quest to get the curse of Achilles. We We want to go to hell and get the curse of Achilles because Nico D'Angelo is like, "I've got a plan." I'm not going to lie, I really wish the curse of Achilles thing had been foreshadowed in a previous book at all. And I wish it mattered more in this book. I feel like it allows Percy to have some really cool like like he kills like the entirety of Hades minions.
And then once they get to New York, he has the curse of Achilles, but he's not like wiping out all of Hades minions anymore or all of Kronos's minions in the same way that he did with Hades minions. And it just like the idea of the curse of Achilles in this book is really cool, right? And it does lead to moments that are great with AnnBth kind of naturally defending his weak spot as if she just kind of knows him with um the the concept of like Ethan Nakamura figuring it out somehow but not engaging with Kronos who he's on the side of in like what he thinks he's figured out. I didn't really know. I couldn't figure out how Ethan knew what it was but doesn't matter. Um I guess he just saw Annabeth defend that spot and then assumed that I the curse of Achilles stuff just it didn't end up mattering enough to me. Uh Percy feels mostly like Percy Jackson for a lot of the fighting once we get to New York. And that that that is kind of the the problem with the book is the there is this element of Percy becomes in this invulnerable fight god and then needs to be saved repeatedly by DSX machinas by Kairen showing up with the party ponies by um uh by um that says even didn't know it was lucky strike.
I mean, Kronos spends a significant chunk of the book being like, "Ethan, you figured out where his weak spot was.
Tell me if you tell me where his weak spot was, Ethan, I will give you the greatest reward ever given to a demigod when we win."
So, I don't know that I totally agree with you. I think Ethan did figure it out.
Um, so we we we go to Hades. Hades is like, "Hey, I'm actually just gonna lock you up."
Um, and then we just kind of break out real easily. And then we go, we go get the curse of Achilles. We beat up Hades minions. We go to New York. We start fighting in New York. A bunch of DSX Machinas happen. We go up to Olympus. We fight Kronos. We beat Kronos. It's really not that hard. Uh, and then the book kind of ends. And then we we we start dating Annabbeth in the final chapters. And it's it's just it's such a fascinating novel in the way that it's structured, right? In the sense that it is really just this big battle, most of which has not been foreshadowed by anything that like Percy experiences.
It's a lot of stuff that I think happens inside novels. Like if you told me that there's a there are a series of other books between book four and book five that explain where all of the [ __ ] that matters in book five comes from. I would 100% believe you. Right. Clarissa is all of the sudden really annoyed with other cabins for not liking Aries enough. And so she's like, "We have this flying chariot, but the uh I think it's the Hermes kids have it." And Clariss is like, "We should have it."
And they're like, "Well, no, it's like her. It's their like parents thing."
And Clarissa is like, "Okay, well, I don't care. We're not going to come fight with you."
This is I don't know. Percy has nothing to do with this. This is like a fight for a carriage that happened offcreen that is for some reason stopping Clarissa and the other Aries kids from joining the battle for the world. She's like, "No, no, no. We're not going to fight to save our home. We're going to watch you all die, and then we'll probably die because you failed because of a carriage that really matters." And then Selena, who's like kind of in the book, but isn't, but is like really close with Clarissa.
Clarice, I keep calling her Clarissa because Clarissa explains it all.
Clarice they like does show up at the end of the book and like does do her DSX Machina and it has not a [ __ ] thing to do with Percy. It just is like it literally is like there is another book running in the background of this book where characters are running around manipulating DSX machinas for them to happen for Percy. Percy does one. Percy does manage to convince his dad Poseidon. He sits in his dad's throne and his dad's a pissy little [ __ ] about it. And he does convince his dad to come help fight Typhen, which does work because the problem with the Typhen fight wasn't was was just that they just needed Poseidon apparently. Um 10 gods couldn't take down Typhen, but Poseidon and some and and 30 foot tall Tyson cuz he's 30t tall for some reason now.
Um uh Wise Eyes, thank you for uh joining the nerds. Radiant Arzu says a lot of this stuff is supposed to mirror real legends and myths in a fun way. So that's a background book here. Okay, I I understand what you're saying, Arzu. I do understand what you're saying.
But if the goal of this book is to get people to go read the myths and legends, I think that this book should be stronger and not be like, if you read this book and you're a little bit confused why all these random sort of characters are popping in, go read the once you go read this other book, come back to this book and this book will be better, right? And I do I understand like I understand the idea that Ric Ryarden is like oh like Achilles is a Greek thing so I'll just put that in the book but it ultimately doesn't matter like the the getting the Achilles power to me did not feel like it fundamentally changed how Percy engaged in the combat. It feels like Percy would have done a lot of the same things without the Achilles power except maybe on the bridge.
But even on the bridge, like Percy still has water powers, you know what I mean?
Like there there's just there's because this book doesn't have sort of the quest arc. It is mostly just combat in the city, right? It that's like 60% of the novel is just a big battle in New York City.
Percy doesn't engage in moving the plot forward very often in this book. He is engaged in that by like so many magical devices that it actually becomes kind of like comical at a certain point in a way that I didn't enjoy. Like I started to laugh at the fact that important information is just given to Percy in dreams every time he falls asleep. Percy falls asleep and then has like six subsequent dreams where he gets to go to like six different people and have the important information of the book just like told to him. And then he wakes up and he's like, "Guys, we don't need Rachel Dar's prophecy stuff. I actually just dream relevant information [laughter] in a way that like was in the first three books, but in the last two is so overused. It it it's like I don't know. Oh, it's very strange. Arzu, thank you for five gifted memberships. I really appreciate that. Um, thank you for the membos. Uh, people, we're there are going to be audiobook reactions coming up. We're going to be doing some for uh The Expanse book four next week.
Uh, and then we're going to be covering we're going to be covering uh Cradle book two the week after. I know there's a bunch of I know there's a bunch of commissions for that. Uh, so enjoy those from Arzu as well as Dungeon Carl in a bit here.
I think the [clears throat] the central relationship of the four so far four so far for damn um the central relationship of this book obviously is Percy and Annth the secondary relationship underneath that really is Annabeth and Luke. And while I think that the delivery mechanism of the information Percy gets is weak and Percy just sort of having dreams of the past, present, future, like Percy just kind of is the oracle in this book. I actually really quite liked the engaging in I'm going to come back to this because Hippol said something interesting. I enjoyed this book while I'm reading it, but honestly I don't recall much of it.
I totally understand why. I understand that, right? This book is very enjoyable because it is just a lot of easy information and hype moments. It doesn't um it doesn't challenge Percy very much.
It is just sort of like the there's a pig problem. Here's how we deal with the pig problem. Here's a oh my god, there's a dragon. Clarice is here. Clarice, stop the dragon. It it is just sort of a series of moments where every background character sort of gets their moment, but those moments don't sort of have an arc because they don't really tie to each other. A lot of the Battle of New York City doesn't like this beat doesn't lead to this beat doesn't lead to this beat doesn't lead to this beat. The statues come to life that ultimately is such an insane idea. [laughter] the idea that at some point, oh my god, what's his [ __ ] name? The guy um the the not Heesus, it's um the guy who made the labyrinth. He replaced every statue in New York City with [ __ ] robots.
Sure. Sure. Yeah. Dead. Dead replaced every statue in New York City with a robot. When? I don't know. [laughter] I always like when statues come to life and things. No idea. It just makes me happy. I agree with that. It makes me happy, too. I Here's the thing. I don't hate the fact that he replaced statues of New York City with robots, but but again, it just it just felt like it it felt fun. but not of consequence. And that's what I think I think that's why this whole book to me falls mostly flat is that it is this like big finale.
Watch some Doctor Who and you won't be happy anymore. Why won't I be happy anymore if I watch Doctor Who? There's many great episodes of Doctor Who.
Um, the the this book is so the the idea of this book is so fun and a lot of it is very fun and I wanted it to be more of consequence.
But going back to what I said about like this is a coming of age story that never comes of age is Oh, you're talking about the weeping angels. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, this is a coming of age story that never comes of age. Percy never becomes 16.
Percy never like takes on the mantle of leadership in the way that I felt I I felt like he learned from his adventures, right? He just sort of has to be the leader and so he is. And despite the fact that Percy is the like New Yorker who loves New York, Percy's love and knowledge of New York never comes into play in terms of like the way they defend the city, right? He even forgets about one of the entrances into Manhattan at one point. I I I wanted the I wanted the book to feel more of consequence for a finale. And I wanted the kids to feel a little bit older. I wanted them to feel like 16 and they just they still feel 12. But the one who doesn't is Luke, right? We get this that we get to go on like this memory road down Luke's past and like why Luke is the way that he is. how Luke's mom became the oracle. And a lot of that stuff is is actually really great. And it leads to um one of my favorite god conversations, which is Percy and Hermes at the very end when Hermes kind of talks to Percy about how difficult it was to be knowledgeable about Luke's future but not be able to say anything to him. And I I loved the concept that the gods are the limitation on the gods in this world is actually the way in which they have to interact with fate because they have the power to stop things.
But their actions, if they stop the things they know are coming, they will make them worse.
And you know that this is kind of tied into Zeus killing um Nicodangelo's mom when he blows up the hotel.
I Zeus Zeus blowing up a hotel was not something I expected. Uh I was it just wasn't wasn't something I expected. Uh that was crazy. [laughter] Truly nuts.
Um it just he's he's so evil and there's no consequences for him at the end of the book, but it is what it is. I don't know. it.
One of the one of the weird things about this book is it doesn't re it never tries to make an argument that it never tries to make the argument that the gods are good or worthwhile.
Right? So like the entire fight with Kronos, Percy's like, I'm choosing the God's side, I guess, but like I don't really want to.
And and every every demigod that goes over to the bad to to Kronos's side is justified because the gods are bad. And I've never read a book where the the heroes are just fighting for such a morally laxidasical side. And don't get me wrong, Kronos is worse. It's just very funny to me that this book never really tries to make the argument that Zeus and his team are worth it or that they make life better for anybody. That the Zeus that the gods don't improve life for anyone. They are just the problem. And I I think we could have seen more moments in these books of the gods interacting with the world to make things better. And we just kind of never do. They're just kind of the worst.
So, I just I I do find that part of it fascinating. The Oracle uh deserved to get cursed. I would have cursed her. I don't know that Here's the thing, Mary.
I don't think it's the Oracle's fault, right? Like I I think that I don't think the Oracle controls when she gets visions.
And so blaming her for being the vessel, it's literally shooting the messenger of fate and being like, "Well, it's your fault that you said something that you don't have control over." Like even at the end of this book when Rachel Dar says the vision at the end of the book, she doesn't like remember it, right? She doesn't engage in being the oracle in a in any like real way in any way that she has control over. So I think to blame her for a situation she cannot control is is difficult.
No, I mean how she rolled up to Hades while he was holding his dead lover.
Yeah, that is confusing.
I I I like how did she get there? She can't fly. Like she walked to Manhattan and climbed up a hotel after had it been been blown up by Zeus. I agree with you.
I don't I I didn't really understand why she showed up unless she can teleport.
Um Death says, "I am Brazilian. Do I I don't know if makes sense, but I saw a short saying that the way Percy divided the cabin on the bridges shows his knowledge of New York. What's your opinion?"
Um, [sighs and gasps] I I understand the idea that like, oh, Percy divides the cabins up to different places in New York.
I I don't really know that I understand tactically what what his thinking was.
It see divide people two places into the city, but I feel like you could reasonably do that if you had a map, right? Like I I wanted to I wanted him to engage in something a little bit more like deeper knowledge of New York that living there would give you. Like the the fact that they they they could have been like using the subway tunnels to move things around or like something that would make it feel like they were in New York City. they he just kind of keeps throwing out locations in New York in terms of like talking about it, but it is kind of the the map of New York as the fight plays out does get a little bit confusing. At one point, Percy flies a flying pig from Grand Central Station or from um Central Park somewhere in Central Park to Grand Central Station.
And I like I couldn't quite figure out how they ended up there other than the fact that it's like, "Oh, it's Grand Central Station." Like, we kind of need to name famous places in New York City. And it did kind of get I did sort of get the vibe sometimes of like, oh, we're doing like famous spots.
He goes all the way down to Battery Park at one point. to talk to the rivers and then he like flies. He's bouncing all the way around Manhattan. It like the the I would love for someone to put together a map of the Percy Jackson's travels in this book around the city and he can fly. So like because Blackjack can fly, it's not actually that crazy.
Um it isn't like it's not that nuts and and it is fun. Again, it's fun. It's tough.
I I feel I feel bad for not liking this book more because it's so fun, right?
Because it is a blast and I I genuinely think if if Annabeth were treated better by the writing of the book and if Percy felt a little bit older, I would have fewer complaints. like the the book around the main characters is fun enough that a lot of what I struggle with with the book is the fact that the main characters don't feel like they're taking it seriously or they're old and or they're as old as they say they are.
And so all of these fun things are happening and the main characters we keep coming back to are just dreaming relevant information and just kind of showing up and fighting and then being like really snippy with each other about dating. Even though Annabeth this whole book thinks Percy's going to die, like Annth has spent the last four years knowing this boy with the knowledge that on his 16th birthday he dies.
And so the way she treats him just feels extra weird cuz she's the whole time is like you're he's like three days from death.
And maybe that's why she's acting the way that she is, right? Maybe maybe she's being her maybe like the him being close to death is causing her to be more jealous and more like pissy with Rachel. Even though like I it just drives me crazy. Rachel Rachel really helped you out, girl. Your quest was book four and you would have failed miserably without that girl and she showed up. She put her life on the line for you and you're just awful to her even though you know she has superpowers.
like [laughter] you know you know the girl has Greek related superpowers and that she like has to be here and you're just so pissy about it because you want to date Percy but you won't communicate with Percy at all except in being mean to him and so you're just rude to this girl who literally like almost dies crashing a helicopter into New York to get you guys information that you need to save the day.
I feel like the last three of these books are Nerdy saying I like this butt focusing threequarters of the time on stuff he didn't like. I think that's fair. I I I it gets exhausting. I'm sorry, animal friend. I I'm not trying to be exhausting. I'm trying to like really share my opinions. And if you don't like my opinions, I think that's an entirely valid point of view. I want to get back to the thing I like. I like Luke. I I think that the I think more so than Percy, I I think Luke is the better part of this book, weirdly.
[clears throat] And it's because there's a real arc to there's a real arc to the the backstory of Luke leading up to his final moments with Kronos. Aridite says, "You think we are here for your opinions?" I don't know what else you're here for. Claris isn't here. It's just me talking for who knows how long.
Um, Luke is the the the the reframing of Luke's backstory as being really we we we we start by meeting his mom, right? We go and we meet his mom and his mom is in a bad way, right? She can't clean up.
um she she she's not aware that she has a mess. Like she's become a hoarder, but she doesn't see it. She keeps burning cookies over and over again. She doesn't have the wherewithal to really like engage in her own life anymore. And she has been destroyed by Hades curse, right? Hades curse uh towards that that was intended to like I think intended to harm Zeus harms this woman and Hermes I I would argue the most, right?
and we we get to go see her before we go to hell, before we go and get the um the curse of Achilles. And it's it's a rough scene. Like it it's a it's a difficult read in that it it felt very real to me in making me understand why Luke would run away and why he would blame the gods for so much after that, right? why he would be so intent on his deep hatred of his father for leaving his mom in this position.
And it it is that kind of thing where like the the gods have power. They have people. The fact that Hermes doesn't at least have a [ __ ] sader go and like I paid like a paid job to go clean up the apartment and and kind of like tidy around this woman is shocking to me.
You would think that in a world where we like there are just services where you can pay someone to go take care of somebody that the gods would do that.
But they don't, right? And and this is not that's not a critique of the book, Animal Friend. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying it's a it's it's a way in which Ric Ryarden is writing that the gods do not engage in the human beings that even the ones they care about that seriously.
Right. Hermes says that he loves this woman, but his version of love lives on this grand timeline that doesn't really take care of her in a human lifespan, right? And so he doesn't think to like have someone show up every week and just clean up her house. And says the laws around the gods non-intervention do end up feeling like plot conveniences. What in Percy Jackson? No.
No, there's no plot conveniences in these books.
Arzu says, "I like how Luke ended up being the hero named in the prophecy."
Yeah, I again I like that. I but I like it. I only like that genuinely because the Percy's like demands at the end demand so much of the gods to change.
And if I I would hate the Luke is the hero in the prophecy thing if the ending of the book was different, right? Because the Luke isn't really the hero.
He's not a hero at all. He harms so many people. Selena Borugard also not a hero.
I The book tries to do a like she did the right thing at the end, but like also her boyfriend died because of her actions.
Beckondorf is dead because of Selena.
I the the book tries to pretend that like oh my god she was just so misinformed. She reports to the bad guys about her own boyfriend's attack on their cruise ship.
I'm sorry. You're not a She's not a [ __ ] hero. It's so sad, Arzu. It is so sad. But like that's a decision she made. You know what I mean?
And yes, she leads the Aries campers back into war at the end, but how many [ __ ] heroes are dead because of her?
It's not just Beckandorf, right?
Uh are she was a foolish girl? I No, I refuse I absolutely refuse that.
I refuse the idea that if girls [ __ ] up, we soften it. If a guy [ __ ] up, we wouldn't soften it the same way. She made decisions and those decisions got her boyfriend killed. She betrayed her friends and she knew she was doing it and she allowed. And look, I'm not saying that she wasn't manipulated by Luke. She was manipulated, but she still went on with it, right?
She still continued to be the spy after Beckondorf was dead, right? There like you have to take responsibility for your actions. If a guy did this, I'd call him equally foolish. That's fair. That's fair. I I get I get a little nervous about that language because sometimes people will sometimes people will act as if like female characters in these books or in books like this are somehow easier to manipulate. And I I just don't agree with that idea. I I just I fundamentally do not believe that women are easier to manipulate. And a lot of fantasy, partially because it's written by white men typically does treat women like they are easier to manipulate, right? It does sort of there is a tendency in like western fantasy to treat women like they like their falling for the bad guys plot is less on them than if a if a man does it because men like to be bad. And I just I do try and push back on that kind of language in the way that I talk about these books because I do want to say that like Selena is responsible for her actions.
And the fact that Clarice is sad that she did those things does not change the fact that Selena is responsible for those actions. You are responsible for being manipulated.
you are like like that is just that's that that is something that we we gloss over is that it is actually your job as an individual to take responsibility for being manipulated and and she she she kind of does right like she she leads a bunch of kids into war and the way that she takes responsibility she does get the Aries kids to go to war which is you know a version of trying to make up for it and I do understand that but the immediate retcon con after her death of everyone being like, [snorts] "Ah, [ __ ] Well, we're just going to never we're just going to we're just going to say she was a hero. She's going to Allesium." That [ __ ] ain't going to Allesium. You sending your own boyfriend to his death does not get you the fields of Allesium. [laughter] Darth Vader does not go to heaven because he killed Palpatine at the end.
He murdered 30 children.
>> [clears throat] >> Um, if nothing else, she was actively betraying her boyfriend, so she has to at least know that was wrong. Yeah. Oh, a thousand%.
Um, yeah, she she like, it would be one thing if she was giving them some messages, but not everything. But for her to report to Luke about the secret mission her own boyfriend is going on, information that she probably only had because she was his girlfriend, right? I don't think that like Percy and I think that Percy and Beckorf probably didn't tell that many people they were going to go attack the cruise ship. And so she had privileged information because of her relationship with Beckondorf, the man she was dating, and so he he died. Like uh considering some of the stuff real heroes in Greek mythology did and still went to Allesium, I think her odds are decent.
Oh, that's interesting.
That's interesting. Yeah.
But yeah, I guess the like the the the limitations on going to Allesium maybe aren't actually that high.
Uh Calibra says, "I wish we got to know Charlie more before he died. Also loved the Niko and Hades scene. Honestly, he was the MVP of this war." I mean, Nik Yeah, Nico's great. I don't think I would consider him the MVP. Um, who would I consider the MVP of this war?
I mean, Tyson's got to be up there.
Tyson can apparently be 30 feet tall, but Tyson also like has been a a Cyclops for like a year and is the leader. That was pretty sick.
I also thought Tyson was going to like be a little bit smarter at the end because he had grown so much, but then he shrinks back down and just wants a stick. So, I don't know about that. I wonder I want to know what the best stick is. Like, what stick does Tyson end up with at the end?
Yeah.
Arzu says, "Heroes and myths were judged by how much they helped the gods, not what mortals thought of their deeds."
Oh, for sure. But Selena betrayed the gods to Kronos mostly.
You know what I mean, Arzu? Like I I I I I totally understand your argument that like it's about how much you help the gods, but the gods are like wait. Like Heesus is like, "Wait, my son is dead because that woman was a spy for Kronos." I don't know that that leads to I don't know that necessarily leads to like Allesium.
I don't know how I don't know how forgiving the gods are.
Tyson is a nepotism cyclops. Yeah. Uh, Hades on the Chariot was great. Hades, honestly, Hades has a lot of my favorite stuff in this book. When Percy goes down to hate, like I said, I don't think this book is very good as a whole. Like, I think that as a whole, it's kind of a mess, but there there's so many individual moments that on their own are good. If Rick Rarden had done a better job tying the individual moments together into like something that more resembled an arc, I think this whole book would be a lot stronger. But he did sort of write a book of of events that sometimes feel like they're just kind of there because like this is the next fun thing. Hades is great. Hades in his throne room being like, I think I'm going to lock you up so that the prophecy just can't happen is is hilarious to me cuz Percy still turns 16 in his dungeon.
Like I was like, "Okay, the the way gods view how these things work is just very is all the gods are always very funny in a way that is is always so petty and small." And the gods are so petty and small.
I do wish they had more moments where they weren't so that I felt like I wanted them to win. There were there were large stretches of this book where I was like, I don't know if I want the gods to win. What if we got what if what if we allowed Kronos to kill the gods and then we killed Kronos and we just kind of got rid of gods in general [clears throat] and then we just moved on without them.
That that sounds like the better ending to this book.
We can set up an experiment with 10 dogs and 10 different kinds of stick. Oh, to find the best stick. That's Yeah, that's pretty that's pretty solid.
All the heroes of the Trojan War were [ __ ] They all still end up in Allesium by Greek's conception.
Yeah.
Yeah, that that is true. I guess I guess I guess it doesn't really matter, right?
I guess what you act but that then that gets frustrating for me for these books.
Like if what you do throughout your life doesn't matter, it's just what your last act was.
That is that's such a depressing view of morality and like like value. And I I think we get so hung up on that because of Star Wars. Like genuinely, I think that the death of Darth Vader has retroactively created this idea that as long as you die doing something heroic, your actions leading up to that point don't matter.
And I I just so fundamentally disagree with that. I don't think doing the right thing in a moment of need supersedes the way you treat people when on a normal day, right? Like the the way you the way you approach every single day is who you are. how you approach a moment of need is adrenaline and we I think we sometimes get so hung up on like this person did an amazing thing because they had to and then we find out like oh but like in their dayto-day they're they're not a good person and it's like well yeah like they had to do that because it was it was the it was the the you know someone pulled a gun. Just because someone like stops someone from like shooting people doesn't mean that they're a good person.
Um Arzu says but if the last act doesn't matter then far more people would not believe in redemption.
I but my point is that I don't think you do believe in redemption if you think that it comes from the last act. I think that you are coddling yourself and believing in a idea of redemption that's easy so that you don't have to try very hard to be a good person. Right? I think that the the version of the last act of redemption which is what Luke gets, right? I Luke is not a hero. Luke is a piece of [ __ ] for most of these books.
Uh the the idea Luke's Luke doesn't get redeemed.
They decide to treat him like he's redeemed, but he isn't. He killed so many people like like thousands and thousands and thousands of probably hundreds of thousands of people die.
And the it is the the books act as if the way in which Luke is responsible for Typhen being released and destroying the middle of America [laughter] is somehow like okay because at the end he stopped Kronos. But like they murdered they murdered so many innocent human beings with the [ __ ] series of earthquakes, tidal waves, tornadoes, and all the [ __ ] that rampaged across the country. And I understand that the book doesn't want to engage in that because the the level of loss that we would have to talk about would be insane. Like it it would just be [ __ ] nuts.
But but there is a level of loss of life in this book that is directly attributable to Luke's actions that is just nuts [laughter] that they're like Luke really was a hero for 4 seconds right at the end and it's like and a 100,000 children in America are dead.
So So there's that.
Also the ship. Also the ship. Yeah.
Uh I think that the change of heart mind is the point. It's about that rather than the actions. I agree with that and I do think a change of heart mind is important. I just think that we because of the way we write literature and fiction. I think that we get too hung up on the change of heart being redeeming. And we've God we've had this conversation on book club before. I can't remember where but we've had this we've had this debate before chat like redemption comes redemption comes from the act of making things right with people and it does mean that some things you cannot be redeemed from right there there there's just a reality to the fact that there there are some things that come with no redemption your actions have harmed too many people and you can never make it right with anyone Dallinar Dallinar cannot be redeemed for his actions, right?
He just has to live with them.
Thank you, AR. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Uh, let's not bring that up because I don't want to get into spoilers for Stormlight, but [clears throat] the the idea that Luke is a hero because in five seconds at the end of his life, he did the right thing while staring at a girl he loved is a is just so detached from the fact that a Titan destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives crossing the United States and that is his fault right practicing says it's very Christian point of view as long as you genuinely ask forgiveness you can be forgiven sure you can be forgiven but that's for forgiveness is given redemption is earned and often times the Christian concept of forgiveness is confused because Christians believe that a a priest or someone, you know, a pastor can accept your forgiveness on behalf of God so that you don't need to get forgiveness from the person you harmed. And I think it's one of the reasons why Christianity struggles so much with um abusive relationships of of men really mistreating their wives uh and the women staying with them is because of the way that the Christians believe that as long as God accepts the forgiveness, it doesn't actually matter if the woman does, right? And so you you have sort of the church becoming this defensive barrier between an abusive relationship and the abused party getting out because their belief in God is like well God is forgiving him so he I need I need to stay with him because God has forgiven him. My pastor says that and it is you. That's just one example, but there are many examples of that that become sort of difficult to talk about once you start to peel back the ways in which these things are used as shields to allow shitty behavior, right?
Um I there was one question um uh Jared Pter says, "Uh have I watched M Shadow Alert?" I haven't yet. I'm going to react to it at some point. Um, probably over the summer when I have time. I'll sit down and watch all of it and I'll post it on Nerdy Daily. Um, I think the funny thing should be whether you would continue to be good if you survived. It's a beautiful thought.
It doesn't matter to the hundreds of thousand people who died, but it is a nice thought that Luke might have been nicer moving forward. I don't know.
That's tough.
Um I that that separates out redemption from becoming a better person. I agree with you to a point, but I also think drawing a line and saying once you have passed this, you cannot come back is dangerous. I don't think that's dangerous. I think that there are lines that you cannot come back from. Like genuinely, I I do I think that um I think that there are levels of harm that you can never no amount of good actions can ever make up for. Um and and some sometimes it's about the intent of the harm, right? Like I do think that there there are there are some things that are so extreme that you need to be locked up away from anyone else forever.
And I just I do believe that, right? I think that but then once the person is past that point, why would they try to be better at all? I don't think that you deserve a chance to be better.
Um, I don't think that you deserve a chance to be better once you've killed that many people. I I don't care that I don't care about your opportunity to be better or or I don't care if you feel like you should be given the chance to be better. I just don't. I think that once you've committed that level of harm, there is no reason why society should give a [ __ ] about your feelings.
And I think that you've you've forfeited that, right? The level of harm that you have perpetuated upon others is so great that I do not believe that anyone should have any sympathy for how you feel you should be given the chance to redeem yourself. And why should you? And look, I'm talking about extreme cases, right?
I'm talking like um I'm talking about like a serial killer who murdered nine people who who like who fileleted people alive like there people do such insane evil [ __ ] that understand that's an opinion which is different from a factual truth 100% all this is my opinion I don't think I I I don't think that you can like be factual about any of this right I don't think that there's a factual truth to the concept concept of redemption. I can only share what my my opinion of it is.
Which is why I'm saying like I don't I don't think that that society should care. I'm not saying society doesn't care or that nobody in society cares about those people's redemption. There are people who care greatly. There are people who are trying to redeem every single person on death row and they all have a very different opinion of that than I do. Right? I can only speak from my opinion on this. I can't speak from every human opinion under the sun. That would be absurd. I I just think that I don't care about your options to be redeemed once you have committed a certain level of harm, right? Like I I if if you're caught if you're uh running a child porn ring, right? and you are responsible for and you're like the person who's like filming kids getting, you know, assaulted and you're the one distributing that. I I genuinely don't care about the concept of your redemption.
I don't care for you to have a chance to try and be better. I just don't. We've just been extremely demonetized. Oh, no.
No, no, no. This won't get me demonetized.
Um, no, no, no. I'm the you have to speak about it in a certain way. Um, but I wasn't thinking about the FE. I was thinking about the level of good in the world as a whole. Anyone who decides to be a better person is a bonus to everyone in my opinion. I don't agree with that.
I I I don't I I I I hear what you're saying and I think there is a beautiful that that is a beautiful level of empathy for you to have that I don't have. I think that that person should not be allowed to interact with human beings ever again on any meaningful way.
I I don't think that there should be room in society for that person to ever be allowed joy again. Um especially if you harm kids like that, man. I I just I don't care. I I I the cell could not possibly be dark enough in my opinion. And but there's but again there's there's levels to it, right? And like I'm talking about like the most extreme people who I'm like, well, I don't know that I would trust them, right, to ever be out in the world again to to make right choices.
I don't know that I would trust them to nerdy's good opinion once lost is lost forever.
Um, yeah, even the crawl keeps kids out. Oh my god, DK Moon coming in with a banger.
Uh, Arerite over on Twitch says, "I think there's also something to be said for people with personal ties to the perpetrator being willing to overlook their impersonal atrocities to remember them in a positive light." Oh, 100%.
Right.
Um, uh, it's a Pride and Prejudice quote.
God, I haven't read Pride and Prejudice since college.
Uh, no, I I do understand what you're saying, Erdite. Like, it is the idea that they're like, well, we like Luke, so we're going to remember him well, even though he killed so many people.
Nerdy playing Darcy when any day. If anyone has the budget and wants me to do it, I was in the middle of time, but when I like Luke, okay, Luke, Luke, Luke, Luke, Luke, Luke's, Luke's backstory. Look, I don't think Luke gets redemption, but I also think that Luke's backstory kind of doesn't help me want the gods to win, which is a whole other piece of it.
But spending so much of the final book with Percy having to understand Luke and seeing the ways in which Luke's life went and how Luke ended up here, I actually really enjoyed. And I thought if if Percy had been written to be a little bit more mature and a little bit older feeling, I think he he could have as a character engaged in that better.
Um, but for the reader, I I felt like the book engaged it in a very interesting way and it led to I think like the best moment in maybe the whole series is Percy handing Luke the knife, right? and the understanding that the prophecy is about Percy having to give up control of the quest, which is something he's never been able to do, right? Like in Battle of the Labyrinth, I was commenting about how Percy sort of feels like he's almost like mansplaining how to quest to Annth. And he kind of does the same thing to Talia. And he he just can't help himself but involve himself and force himself on these quests. And the it is a it's a genuine moment of growth for Percy here to be able to let go and to be able to hand over control of that.
Um uh DK Moon says, "The evil that men do lives after them. The good is often inter with their bones unless given redemption." That's a great quote.
What's that from? Unless you just wrote that. if you just wrote that, that's a [ __ ] banger and I'm stealing it.
Um, but you know what I mean? Like I I think that the the the moment with Luke and the way in which uh he connects with Annabeth in that moment, I really I I don't want to be negative. I'm trying I'm trying to be positive here. I'm I'm struggling. I didn't I didn't think this book was very good. I I think that like the first three Percy Jackson books are are great. And I think book four and five are both at best fine. Um, that's Julius. Oh, the Shakespeare Julius Caesar.
I was like, Julius Caesar said that?
That's crazy.
[laughter] Oh my god. I was like, wait, you're quoting the actual Julius Caesar?
[laughter] Yes. Shakespeare.
Shakespeare's a pretty good writer, y'all. He He was He wrote a lot of dick jokes, but he was a pretty good writer.
Um, I was about to say that seems out of character. I think the the one thing that kind of ruined the the Luke's death, I really did not need Rick Ryarden to try and make that a love triangle as well. I felt it was very weird when Luke was like, "Did you love me?" And Annabeth is like, "I was 12."
You're not going to stay with any of Recruit's books after this, right? No, I don't think I'm going to I I think this is it for me. I like unless they do grow up quite a bit and are unless unless you're like the unless someone is like these books get significantly more mature.
Um I I don't know. I'm not I'm not particularly interested in them. I I the way they play with Greek mythology is fun if you're 12. I think that reading them as a 34 year old, I feel a little bit like No Cane Chronicles, they're so much better. I mean, I I I would maybe try and listen to them. I I would probably not book club them until I've read them because I don't really want to just [ __ ] on stuff. My goal isn't really to be negative on the internet. Um, it's why we're It's why I wanted to finish this because we did the first four and I wanted to like put a cap on this and have this series done. But I also just I I'm I'm getting tired of disliking things online and I kind of just want to talk about the stuff that I love.
They are more mature. I don't know about significantly more mature. I don't mean I want them to be porn. I'm not looking for smut. I I mean I just mean I want them to What's so fascinating is I think the first two books of this series are Are you worried about how negative you're going to end up being with Soul Smith? Yes, but everyone keeps joking about getting back to Cradle and so like I don't know. We'll see how it goes. Um I but also everyone already knows how things went with the first book and how much I did not like the first book. So I think it'll be funny. I think Clarice will be positive and um I don't know. We're going to see how that goes. I haven't read it yet, so I don't know. Um I think um I think that the first two of these books both had really interesting like beginning and middle and ends and I really liked the arc of them. The third one is good and I think is maybe the best book in this series. Um, but the third one still has the weirdness around um Bianca's death and how little that hit these children who just watch someone die for the first time. But whatever. The there there's weirdness in these books all the way around. But I think the first three are pretty solid.
And then I think book four and book five just I think because of his over reliance on sharing relevant information to Percy through dreams and through like Percy just gets information that he hasn't earned and through the way in which he writes Annabeth to just become so jealous and so difficult in the final two books in ways that she just isn't in the first three.
I I just I really I I I I think that the series became significantly worse after book three. I think that there's three solid books that I'm like, these are all very fun. I get why kids love them. I get why they're so popular. And then there's two books that I'm like, I don't I don't get what he was going for or why he gave up on the like structured storytelling that he was doing so well in the first three books to just do these sort of amling adventures that are just kind of a mess structurally. Battle of the Labyrinth bounces around in weird ways and just sort of you just kind of you're never quite sure why they're doing what they're doing. Partially because they don't know what they're doing. They just kind of wander and then go back to camp and then wander and then this book is like just mostly a battle in New York City where like everyone you know from the previous book shows up.
It's sort of like these DSX machina harrah moments that leads to like an a kind of easy ending and but it doesn't feel like it has much adventure to it there. This book didn't have a lot of there's nothing for Percy to figure out because his dreams just told him the information and he got like a superpower that protects him from really being in danger throughout the whole thing. So, there's not a lot of stakes in most of the fighting for Percy.
And I just I I I miss the I miss the fun wild ride of the first three books. I'm going to be real. Like when I was reading the first three books, I felt like I couldn't put them down. Like they they they insist upon themselves. There there there was the you felt like you were riding this wave with the books. And then the last two feel so stilted to me and so like I could have put this down multiple times and forgotten about it, which is crazy for like the big finale of a five book series. And I never felt that way in the first three books. And I I I just think that I think that he gave up a little bit on structure in favor of spectacle in a way that did in my opinion detract from my experience of this finale.
[clears throat] Uh Aerodite Gaming says it's endgamey derogatory.
The the difference between this and endgame for me and I I actually agree with that. It does feel endgamey.
The difference is Endgame came at the end of like a 22 book series, a 22 movie series and no one had ever done that before. Whereas like in books, people have had big book finales like this before because it's easy to do in books, right? And it didn't feel novel. Endgame at least feels novel in its attempt to do something truly insane.
And like there there's just for me Endgame there there is a level of the experience of Endgame is partially about the fact that it exists at all.
And I I didn't get that here. I didn't feel impressed that this existed. I just kind of felt like most chapters I was like, who's going to show up and stop this?
Oh, Clarice is here. Great. Oh, Hades and Nico are here. Okay. Oh, the party ponies are here. Like, and that the fact that you can just kind of keep naming sort of the DSX machines feels feels crazy. I I will also say I think that for the the the size of the fighting, I don't know that Ric Ryarden always does the best job describing fights as they're happening. He sort of just says and then they fought and then he sort of backwards describes the consequences of a fight post. So, you have to kind of like retroactively figure out what happened. like the Lenas the sader died and his death is very sad but I didn't like Lenas like shows up and then we don't hear from him and then he's dying and it was just weird to to experience his death without having like a memorable moment of him in the fighting itself and so it's sort of like if Endgame if Tony Stark was flying around the battle in Endgame and just kind of landing next to people while they died to hear what they said as they die and then took off and like flew around and didn't like participate in the fight itself. It's a very war records approach. Yeah. Yeah, it is.
Yeah. Just fascinating. [clears throat] Um, can we talk at the end? Okay.
Wait, wait, wait. Can we talk about the gifts that they're all given at the end of the book?
I look, I get that this is YA and I get that this is like four kids. I totally understand. Percy gets to like ask something of the gods and they're like, "We're going to make you a god." And he's like, "No, no, no. I I I want to date Annabv even though she is so mean to me." Um, Percy, great ask. [ __ ] great ask.
Recognize your [ __ ] children.
Recognize the minor gods. Let's Let's make things a little bit better for people who have superpowers so that people with superpowers don't become villains again. Fantastic.
Couldn't Couldn't have asked for a better ask from Percy. It saves the whole series in my opinion that Percy makes it about the other kids who are mistreated at the end. And I I know that's what he was always going to do.
But I just want you guys to handle your [ __ ] [laughter] It's such a good point, Jonathan.
Grover is like Grover is made a counselor, which is fine. I don't actually have a problem with that at all. Um he's basically given Lineas's chair on the Cloven council. That's sick. It's fun. Does he deserve it? I I mean, probably. I don't know. I don't really know how important like intelligence is to being on the Cloven Council. It's not something that Grover has in spades, but it's fine.
Annth is charged with rebuilding Olympus. [laughter] And I'm not saying she can't do it.
I'm not I'm not saying that she can't do it. I just Arzu, he's a [ __ ] Grover's a [ __ ] idiot. Okay, I I I like him. He's cute. He's an idiot. He got Bianca killed. Let's be real clear about this.
Annabbeth, the the book Grover getting on the Cloven Council is like, "Okay, that makes sense. He's the one who saw Pan die. He's spreading the word about PR pan.
Annabbeth has read Deadless's notes.
The This is This is why the gods think she should be the architect of Olympus.
They're like, "Anbe, you're 15 years old. You have read Dedalus' notes. Why don't you redesign [laughter] Olympus?"
I cackled. I was listening to the audio book. I stopped listening to the audiobook and cackled at the gym out loud. I gaued. I was like, "What do you mean?" She's read Deadless's notes. So, like, let her go to college first and learn how to be an architect. [laughter] It would be like me being like, I read an architect's notebook. I am now going to design my house. All of my friends would be like, "No, no, you're not.
You're going to hire a professional."
And I understand I understand that the like the buildings will probably be built with magic. So, I don't think like the math of like how they stand up matters, but I just I just found the that the the gods saying like Annabeth, you want to be an architect.
You want to be an architect, don't you?
You've read Dead's notes. You rebuild this [ __ ] We could just do it. We could do it today. [laughter] Uh, Arzu, she's the only one who wants the job. I doubt that's true. I don't think they asked a single other person.
Arzu, uh, they send these kids to war.
Why is architecture so bad? Because architecture is harder than war. I [snorts] don't know if you know this, architecture is actually more difficult than war.
Uh, I don't think the buildings can collapse because they're made with magic.
Although, no, they can collapse because Kronis destroyed them all.
Monarchy approach architecture is a very funny concept to apply seriously in a story. Oh, a thousand%. And here's the thing, this is it's it is a great moment for these books because it is her dream to build something that lasts, right?
And so, I'm not I'm not actually mad at it. I'm not really criticizing Rick Ryarden for writing it in. for a children's story. It is the logical gift for her to be given, but it is an example of how these books did ne never grew up from being 12-year-old stories.
Right? I think that Annabeth being given the architecture of Olympus is a really fantastic example of what I'm saying about this being a coming of age story that never comes of age.
it. This is this is the this is like the example that I mean when I say that the Percy Jackson books are not really coming of age stories because the kids never grow up because the good the gift that she's given at the end is the kind of gift that a 12-year-old would want.
But that a 16-year-old I think reasonably would go I don't know how to I like when I was 16 I managed a movie theater and I thought that was a reasonable job for me to have it oneups her delusion somehow. Yes. This is honestly more crazy than her dream of rebuilding Manhattan. Yes. I came in. It is absolutely more crazy than her dream of building Manhattan [laughter] because it's it's just it is I [clears throat] I I see people online sometimes being like I don't understand why people and look I'm about to mention Harry Potter. [ __ ] JK Rowling. I don't want more Harry Potter [ __ ] I don't I'm not going to watch a TV show. I'm not trying to defend JK Rowling. I I'm just bring this up because a lot of times I see the two series compare to one another and people say like I don't understand why people like Harry Potter when Percy Jackson is right there and it's kind of the same thing. And I I just fundamentally disagree with that. As much as I don't [ __ ] with Harry Potter, those books grow up with those kids.
Harry in book one is an 11year-old and Harry in book seven is a 17, 18 year old.
And like the the in the epilogue, they all have like jobs like they they have real like magical world jobs and they the books age with them and they grow up with them which I think is why my generation was so upset or was so obsessed, sorry, not upset, obsessed with Harry Potter because it felt like you could grow up with those kids and they would feel like the age that the book tells you they're at throughout and the maturity of the writing and the maturity of the concepts they're dealing with and the way in which they handle war grows up with those kids. So when people are dying in book seven, it feels so real. When when Sirius Black dies, it feels so real to them. The grief in those books feels real and it is much easier to be obsessed with that world because it is tangible.
Percy Jackson does not do that, right?
Percy Jackson does not grow with its kids. It keeps telling you the kids get older, but they are responding to their world in the exact same way. Even in the writing, like the jokes that Percy tells across this series of books don't grow with him. He doesn't get a he never finds a different humor. And I get that it's probably just Ric Ryarden's sense of humor, right? But Percy doesn't get kind of older with the novels. And so when kids start to die in these books, the grief doesn't actually feel that real, right? It feels childish and like it almost has like a dreamlike quality as if the mist helps them forget the grief that should be hanging over them.
and 16-year-old Percy at the end of this book when countless demigods are dead on the streets of New York down below and hundreds of thousands of people have been destroyed by Typhen crossing the United States and the the the rampant death and destruction of the end of this book happens. There's no mention of it.
There's no weight given to it. Percy's just fine. He goes to camp. Like the end of this book, Percy Jackson goes to summer camp and I I will say the [ __ ] final line of this book is fantastic.
It is so good when he's leaving camp and for the first time he didn't look back.
10 out of 10. No notes. Ric Ryarden could not have written a better finale line to the series. Genuinely, you'll never hear me speak a bad word about it.
I I think it is like it's a it's a perfect line and it's so simple, but it conveys so so so so so much, right? Just an absolute metric buttload of character and and whatnot in this book.
I love it. Genuinely, it might be the greatest line Rick Ryarden ever writes in his life. And it's so it's such a simple idea, but it's just God, what a [ __ ] banger, right? I got chills. I didn't like the book that much and I got chills at how good the final line is genuinely.
But these books don't grow up with them.
And uh I think part of that is also the certainty in the world of Rick Ryarden's books versus Harry Potter. They don't grapple with existential questions like afterlife. Well, yeah, I guess the the fact that they can go visit their friends in Allesium doesn't make it like they could go see Beckandorf tomorrow.
But but the people online who compare Percy Jackson and Harry Potter, they don't they they they are not playing the same game at all. And I think that the expectation that people would become as obsessed with this world when it's as shallow and it's just shallow. Like Rick Ryarden's version of New York is shallow. And I I I know that people love it and I'm not trying to be mean. This is just my opinion.
But th this series will never be as beloved as something like a Harry Potter or a Lord of the Rings or a Stormlight Archive or something like that because it just isn't it it it isn't that deep.
This is kids. These are kids books and they pretend to get older, but they don't. It's a fugazi fugazi.
You know what I mean? And and that is it is unfortunate. I It's not what I expected at the beginning of this. When I started reading these, I was excited to watch Percy kind of grow up to be 16 and do these things. And I I did not I think part of the reason why I'm disappointed is I didn't get the experience I wanted out of this. But I'm 34 and that this shouldn't be about me.
You know what I mean? I think that if you're 12 years old, this probably [ __ ] so hard.
I I I if I had read this when I was 12, I think I would be deeply nostalgic for it today in a way that like I just can't artificially create at 34.
Uh, I think I think you would like Heroes of Olympus, but it probably won't satisfy the need you feel for improvement. Not fully. I might read it one day. I don't know that I would book club it. I also um Hey, Nibbon. What's up? I honestly don't think I'll ever do a solo book club again. I think that this podcast is two people. I think that like trying to do the solo stuff because there's more books I want to read. I think I need to just start reading books and maybe doing like like 10-minute book review videos and not book clubbing by myself. Um, and just like I think the podcast is me and Claruse and doing it without her. I don't know. I I don't think I I I've tried it. I've tried to make it work and I just don't think I'm going to do it anymore. Um, Marius says, "I wish Ricard would do more Kane Chronicles because I was introduced to him by Percy Jackson, but I liked his other one that is not the first ones." Yeah, I've heard was saying the Kane Chronicles is better. Um, I've heard Heroes of Olympus is interesting.
They introduce the like Roman gods, which makes no sense to me because the Roman gods and the Greek gods are the same gods.
So, I'm curious how that works.
Like, Aries and Aren't Aries and Jupiter the same person? Spoilers. Can't tell you. All right, that's the point. What do you mean that's the point? Arzu, the Kane Chronicles is better.
Can I say how he does?
Uh, my son read these a few years ago, enjoyed it, and burned through all the rest of Rick's book, but he's 14 now.
Oh, Jupiter is Zeus. Jupiter is Zeus.
Aries is Mars. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. That That's right.
No, the gods being the same is part of the major conflict is just that they have different names. That sounds inc. Okay, I'm not reading these books. That sounds so stupid [laughter] that this this is immediately so judgmental of me, but the fact that the Roman and the Greek gods have different names is the major conflict of a book series. Deeply uninteresting to me. I I mean, we just did this. Do they Wait, are there like Roman kids?
Well, now I'm curious. [ __ ] It's actually fascinating. All right.
All right.
The best thing is that you get seven different POVs.
Oh my god.
Wait, some of them Roman?
Wait, so there are Roman children? Are any are any are are they actually in Rome ever? Or are we just calling them the Roman kids and the Greek kids even though they're all blonde children in New York City?
It is my favorite thing about this book that everyone is like incredibly blonde.
[laughter] Except I guess Grover, but [clears throat] uh seven book one has three different POVs. Okay, the series does go to Rome at one point. Thank god. This series needs some international travel.
I also just want a book where Percy has to like get a job and like make money and survive. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Something I love about this book that I didn't bring up earlier. Something I love about this book, Percy Jackson talks about Paul Bloffus as his parent in a way that I thought was a really good representation of stepparents. I I I really really appreciated the way in which Percy the language about Paul Bloffus at this point because he's been dating Percy's mom for what like a year and a half at this point I think and I think that um I think that there's just something about the casual way in which Percy engages with Paul being his parent now as being just a really positive message for kids who have stepparents to engage with him. Just like my my stepdad is my is my father, you know what I mean? Like he's I I I am more the man I am today because of my stepdad Kim than I am my actual dad. And you know, it just I I as as someone who has a stepfather who I and you know what, my dad's kind of a narcissist like Poseidon if I'm being completely honest.
Maybe I do relate with Percy Jackson quite a bit because of that. Anyway, my mom is the best and uh my stepdad [ __ ] rocks. And I as as someone who has this dynamic, I felt very seen by the casual way Percy Jackson's like, "Oh no, my parents are downstairs. My parents are in the car. My parents are in danger." Paul Blofus [ __ ] comes out with a sword, kills a [ __ ] creature.
Which does get into one thing about the the monsters in this book. I will say the way in which I was a little disappointed the way in which the like big monsters that had been so scary for multiple books did sort of feel like fodder in these fights. There were a couple of ones that stood out, but for the most part we're fighting like minotaars and [ __ ] And the the monsters weren't very memorable in a lot of the combat. Part of it is that the combat isn't overly explained. Um it's not very visualized. It sort of is just like telling us the combat is happening. But I do wish they I do wish that um we gotten a little bit more variety in the fights.
Although Clarice Clarice killing the dragon was pretty cool. Uh the hero series engages more accurately with the idea of gods and the myth being shaped by shifts in civilization and dominant culture. Oh god, I don't know that I want to read required in writing about that. I already think, let's be real, I already think the the like this America is the seed of the west is kind of hilarious. I don't know. I don't know if I want to keep going, man. I don't know.
I did not I didn't like the last two books in the series as much as I wanted to. I'll be real. And I have been real.
There's There's multiple hours of me talking about it. I I think that I think that the first three books in this promised uh ending that I don't I don't think he delivered on. And that's fine.
It happens. You can't always get what you want in this life. Next week, we're going to be reading The Expanse, though.
And I'm not worried about liking that cuz god damn does James James SA Cory know how to write a book. I'll say I wasn't a fan of book six. Is that the first Heroes of Olympus book? Wait, book six of which series? What is book six?
Nine Bishop?
I don't know.
You're going to miss that book club.
Blue. No, we're doing it for you. You're the only reason we can do the expanse.
God, I am caffeinated right now.
[clears throat] Yeah, this has been an interesting ride, y'all. Um, this has been an interesting ride. I I'm sorry I'm not continuing for the people who do want me to. Um, I don't know that there's anyone who actually wants me to, which is understandable.
Uh, I'll be driving to Minnesota during book club. I'll probably put up so I can listen, but I won't be able to participate. Ah, I'm sorry, Blue. I'm so excited because it is the one season of The Expanse that I did not like as much as the rest of the show. And so, I'm so excited to see how I feel about how they about the adaptation process. Like, is this the one book in the series I don't like, too? Or not not that I didn't dislike the fourth season. I just found it more frustrating than other parts of it. I didn't think it was as good as other parts. Um, but yeah.
Yeah. Are you going to do a strength of the few book club? Uh, I I think we're going to try after the summer.
Uh, I think this is the best way to put my thoughts on book four. I didn't do a reread to try and find chapters that would be good reactions. That's That's fair.
That is fair. And say, "I'm glad I read these. I might get them for my nephew when he's a bit older." Oh, I got them for my nephew. I did. Uh, my nephew is seven and he really liked it. The first one or eight. Uh, so no, like I do think here's the thing. I think that these are fine for kids. I do wish the I wish that it treated women a little bit better.
Like ultimately like my biggest my biggest concern with giving this to young boys is the way that it I I think it uses pretty misogynistic language a lot.
Um and I think the way that it treats female characters is pretty like it feels like 2005.
I'll be honest. I I wish that he I I wish the women were especially Annth. Anna Annabbeth [ __ ] sucks in the last two books. It's crazy because she's such a great character in the first three books and she just is Ric Ryarden just doesn't know how to write about her in the last two books except in terms of how she feels about boys and Luke's death being like Annth did you love me and she's like no I was 12 years old you were 15 the [ __ ] is wrong with you?
Like I I I I genuinely hated that line so much. I love that she said no and that Luke was like, "Yeah, okay, that makes sense." But like at what point would she have loved you, Luke, when she was 11? Like what what are we doing? What? He's like what? In that scene, he's like 20, almost 20. He's 19, 20 years old. And he's like, "When you were 11 years old, did you want to date me?"
It's like, "What are we doing? What?"
And and maybe I maybe I missed I maybe I missed something in that, but it just it it felt like such an insane piece of writing [laughter] that came out of nowhere. It it never really felt like they had a romantic relationship at all cuz she's like four or five years because he's what 12 when she's eight, right? So he's at least four years older than her. Maybe five depending on when their birthdays fall. And I just I just found it I just hated it. Or or did she turn 16 before Percy? He might be like 20 21 in this final book.
Did you Did you Annabbeth? Did you love me? No. Why? What? What?
Did you Did you love me, you [ __ ] weirdo? Like, I don't know. I just I wish that his I wish that his ending had been ever so slightly different.
Uh, she seemed to have a bit of a crush on him in the first book, but lots of kids have crushes on people older than them. Oh, no. No. I don't have a problem at all with a 12-year-old having a crush on a 16-year-old, right? I think that that is completely normal.
I do I just find it weird for him to ask if she loved him when he's 21 and she's 16 or 20 and 16. I I like I think that that that's what's weird. Her having a crush on him is not weird. Him having a crush on her or thinking that there's any romantic thing between them is very weird and uncomfortable and like groomy in a way that I I I don't think is intentional. I think it's supposed to be sweet. It just didn't come across as sweet to me because he's he's been her villain. He's been a villain in her life since she was like 12.
Oh my god. Animal friend, we're just talking. I'm literally responding to things that the [ __ ] chat is saying.
We're having it's a [ __ ] live stream.
I didn't write my thoughts out and say them in order. We're just chatting.
[clears throat] Cringe as an adult, but so so true from a kid's perspective. From Annabth's perspective, 100%. From Luke's I No.
You know what I mean? Like, that is the line for me. If you're a 12-year-old and you have a crush on a 16-year-old, that's fine. If you're a 16-year-old and you have a crush on a 12-year-old, that's not fine.
You know what I mean? Like, it is actually not okay for a 16-year-old to be attracted to a 12-year-old. That's [ __ ] weird.
Book club isn't scripted. My illusions are shattered.
I just this show could not be more casual. Like the idea that I've like I these are I have no notes.
It just this just says in person. That's it. I have no notes. I'm just chatting.
This couldn't be a less like structured review of a thing ever. If you animal friend, if there's something you want me to talk about, bring it up in the chat and we'll chat. That's how this has worked for the last hour.
He's [clears throat] more of a hero figure to her. He was the one who found her alone in an alley as a child. I agree with that completely. The thing I'm saying is I don't understand why he asks her if she loves him. Like I don't know what he wants her answer to be there is I guess what I'm saying.
Jonathan O'Neal, right? I don't I don't know what he I don't know what answer he wants back.
[clears throat] Um, I think it reads really well, but the fact that Annabeth was the only person there he ever genuinely cared about in any way informs it a little. I I understand that. I I do from that perspective, Aridite, I wish Talia had been there. I wish Talia mattered more.
I I Talia really matters for a book and then she is this series really lets go of her really fast. Hey, she's like in this book like fighting and stuff, but I would have loved more from Talia in this book.
Talia took herself off the board.
Um, I wasn't arguing with you or opposing your view. I think that's the only love she had for him, though. Oh, I agree with that. And I do think she loved him as a brother. And so, I guess maybe maybe that's what he was asking.
Like, did you love me as a brother? But it just because because Ric Ryarden writes it as like another jealousy moment where she like looks at Percy and Percy feels his like heart clench per Rick Ryarden makes it about romance.
That's what it is. It has It's not the line. I I think that even if he had been like did you love me and Annabeth had like knelt down and take took his hand and been like we were family Luke. Of course I loved you. I still love you.
It wouldn't have been weird.
It would have been a beautiful moment of her being like, "I love you. I love you with my whole heart and I'm so sorry that I couldn't save you from your bad decisions." Right? I think there's a version of it that's beautiful. It's the fact that like I wish I had the book in front of me, but I I it's downstairs. I It's the fact that the line is like, "Did you love me?" And then Percy's like, "My heart clenched. Oh my god, this is how Annabeth felt when I talk about Rachel Dar." and she's like, "No."
That makes it romantic in a way that I just don't think it should be. Like, I genuinely think the way it should be written is Luke goes, "Um, Annabeth, did you love me?" And she kneels down and takes his hand and is like, "We said on that day in that safe room that we would be family.
I will always love you, Luke."
There's no romance in that. There's nothing weird about it. the age gap stuff doesn't come up. It's just this like beautiful moment between them and an acknowledgement that there's a genuine love that has carried through the series for them. And it's the it gets ruined as a moment because it becomes about Percy's like feelings and his like heart clenching, but like there's there's a world where per she can say that she loves him in a way that isn't weird and actually I think would be like the better moment, right? like would be the more like like heartbreaking moment of her just being like, I love I I still love you. Loved.
No, no, no, no. I I love you and I will always love you. You are my family. We decided that day that we were family and despite all the decisions that you made, we are family. There's so many different ways to word that line. And it would be a [ __ ] banger. And but it just comes down to the like every woman's interaction with everyone has to be about jealousy in these books and it it's it does kind of like kill it.
Percy's heart clenching would even work if he got expanded into pity or sympathy or whatever. Yeah. If Percy was feeling something about Luke. 100% Herodite.
And if Annabeth didn't look at Percy for his reaction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Like the book makes it about romance in a way that it just as a moment doesn't need to be because she was 12 and he was 16. And it like there there's so many kinds of love.
Like the Greeks are the best at naming love. The Greeks have so many [ __ ] words for love. Agape, right? Isn't that familiar love is agape?
I wish that it was from Annabet's POV than Percy. Oh, Marius. Marius, you're speaking my [ __ ] language now. You make that you make that the first scene from you make you tell the whole thing from Percy's POV and then Percy hands over the knife. He hands the knife to Luke, right? And then from that moment on, never Percy's POV again. From the moment Percy hands over the knife and gives up being the leader of the quest, it's Annabth's POV until the end of the book. Oh, we'd be cooking with [ __ ] gas. And at the end, the you don't even have to change the final line cuz Annabeth watches Percy leave the camp and Annabeth is the one who notices that for the first time he doesn't look back.
You don't have to change anything about any of the like end of the book. You just make from from the moment Percy gives up the knife until the end of the book, it's Annabth's POV.
That would have been Chef's kiss because then we would get her her getting to say goodbye to Luke. Percy doesn't really care about Luke that much. You know what I mean? Like they they he they spent one summer kind of training together, but they he doesn't have the relationship with Luke that has. And I don't know. Ultimately, I like I'm glad I read them. I'm glad I know the story of these now. I do understand more. Filia is brotherly love. What's familial love? I know they've got a word for it. Agape is pure love. Percy, I think, cares about Luke in a sense that Luke is in the position Percy thought he would be in. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
Yeah. He he sees a lot of himself in Luke and like who he doesn't want to become, right?
I'm I'm glad I read them. I I I do understand more now why they're changing so much in the TV show. When we when we watched season two, I was confused. It felt like they were changing things for no reason. I think that having read the final two books, the the final two books do a lot of random [ __ ] that isn't very foreshadowed and that isn't, in my opinion, very good for a especially for a TV show. And I think they're going to have to change a lot, especially like Talia. Talia just kind of is treated as being very important and then disappears. Like I think there's going to be a lot of um I think there's a lot of ways in which the TV show is going to have to adapt this to a make Annabth seem way less like whiny and weird in the second half. Um what's up Sin Sid? Welcome in. Uh I I I think that the people who love the books and and want a very faithful adaptation are going to be disappointed partially because can we talk about this for a second? There's no [ __ ] way that TV show can afford to do the final book.
There is not there is not a world unless they get an absolutely metric buttload of money.
How how could you possibly do the final book on that t on the TV show budget that season 2 had? They didn't have lights for night scenes.
They didn't they didn't have [ __ ] Talia and Zeus have the most important conversation in season two in the dark.
They didn't have lights. How are they going to [ __ ] do the battle of New York City in the TV? How are they going to do with the giant pig that crashes into Grand Central Station?
Like [laughter] there's just no way.
And honestly, this this this book would be a bad TV show.
It's like let's let's just be very we let's be real. It would be like one episode to go get the curse of Achilles and then seven episodes of just fighting in different parts of Manhattan at night.
Yeah. Hippue at night. Right. Cuz Kronis' army can only attack at night because they're more powerful at night.
And so it's just it's [laughter] it's seven episodes of them fighting in the dark.
>> [laughter] >> It's just seven hours of children swinging swords in the dark. They're like, "There was a minotaur there. You couldn't see it cuz it was night time and we're using real lighting." So, [laughter] but like actually like what would the episode breakdown be? I guess episode Oh, no. No. Okay. So, let let let's actually try and think this out. Episode one, right, is attacking the cruise ship, right?
And it ends with Nico.
Episode one of season five would be attacking the cruise ship. Ends with Nico being like, I have a plan. Episode two, we go to hell.
Uh, we fight uh we break. Maybe episode two ends with Percy. So, episode two, we go, we do the oracle stuff at the house.
Um, right. We meet May Castellan. We go to hell. End of episode two, we're put in prison by Hades. Episode three, we break out of prison, get the curse of Achilles, and we fight off uh Hades army, and we go back to camp.
Episode [clears throat] four is rallying everybody to get ready to go to New York, the fighting with Clarice about stuff. Um, it's mostly just arguing about the battle in New York. And at the end of episode 4, we get in the vans and we the end of episode 4, all of the vans are driving to New York City and then there's four episodes where we fight New York City. It would be h it would be half the season. Wheel of Time season 1 graphics. I mean, yeah, it's crazy, but yeah, I I think that like episode five.
I mean, they haven't established the party ponies, so I guess the party ponies are just cut.
Yeah, it it would just be it would be essentially like a 4hour chunk of battle with probably like the entire final episode being like Kronos probably gets taken out in episode 7. It's probably three episodes of battle. Kronos gets taken out in episode 7. Um, and then episode 8 is just fully like Denuma, [clears throat] a little bit of like time with the kids at summer camp and then like Percy, a lot of Percy Annabeth at the summer camp at the end, right?
get like just like to enjoy the summer with them maybe. So maybe it is just three episodes of battle. You cut the party ponies you you cut it down to mostly like you cut it down to three important fights, right? You would do the Central Park fight.
You would do Central Park. you would do the battle with the dragon where Clarice shows up in episode six.
Um, and then episode seven is Olympus, the fight on Olympus.
Cuz then if you cuz then if you do if you do the like bridges and tunnels at the beginning of episode five, but Percy goes to Central Park, you're just fighting in trees with like CGI buildings over top. That would probably be a little bit cheaper. The dragon fight in episode six is probably the most expensive fight in the season where that's the only one that you actually do on like a New York City street.
Um, you have Clarice on Fifth Avenue in like a CGI Fifth Avenue fighting a dragon. And then episode 7 takes place in a CGI room, right, where they're just in the god's chamber.
Arzu says they will have made so many of their own storylines by then that sticking to this book just would not happen. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Talia's [ __ ] on Kronos's side by this fight based on how the end of season 2 went, right? Like, why would Talia ever fight on the side of the gods in the show?
I'm I'm not going to lie. I do think that book two is better than season two, genuinely. Like I think that I think that the Sea of Storms or Sea of Monsters, sorry, is a better book than season two of Percy Jackson is a TV show, but I think the TV show can improve upon the last two books.
Genuinely, I just don't think they have the money to. I ultimately think that like the the the biggest problem the show is going to have is that they're just not going to have the money to do any of this. They didn't have the money due to the Hydra in season 2. They didn't have the money to do um they didn't have the money to do so much powers of the show. You have two episodes for battle. Make it fit. No, I think they'll do three. I think it'll be five, six, and seven cuz I think Central Park like I think the the the people running the show will be like here's the deal. Episode 5 is going to be really cheap. We're going to spend some time with Morpheus and the sleep god and Grover in Central Park. It's just going to be trees. We can film that anywhere and pretend it's Central Park.
Um, they won't film an actual Central Park because it's so expensive, but the doing an entire episode of the battle in Central Park just really makes production of it so simple. CGI is expensive, so it's going to be mostly just demigods like it was at the end of season 2, and it's just going to be a bunch of kids hitting each other with sticks in in like fake Central Park. The only one that'll have a monster will be the dragon.
There will be shots from very far away of monsters at the bridges and tunnels fighting with demigods. Percy will fly around on Yeah, he'll fly around on blackjack and you'll see the like CGI creature fights at the edges of the city where people are holding bridges and holding tunnels and then he'll go to Central Park and he'll fight other kids.
And like the fight with Prometheus will be in the Central Park episode. It's just going to be a really tall dude. It'll probably be another wrestler. Maybe they get like, I don't know, the Big Show or the Undertaker. No, those they're they're old. Not old, but like they're like retired. They'll get someone like Roman Reigns or Cody Rhodess or, you know, some modern wrestler, John Cena, someone like that will play Prometheus.
That way, it's just a big dude fighting Percy.
Like, that's cheap, right? You could do that pretty easily and then you save on money.
God, I I and this this is how it happens, right? This is how the stuff that people love getting adapted becomes the stuff that we don't love honestly, right? Because it's these conversations that they're having in those rooms of like, how do we afford this? And then we blame them for ruining it when it really just comes down to like nickels and dimes. How can we afford to make this?
Because no, no, unless you had a Marvel movie budget to make a two and a half hour The Last Olympian film, which Disney has the money, but it would never make the money back, so there'd be no point for them to do it.
How how would you do this? It's so crazy. There's like there's like 50 centaur or what? What?
No, there's like there's some crazy number of centaur from across the entirety of the United States of America at one point. It's like 200 centaurs or something or I can't remember.
There's centaur from everywhere. There there's dragons. There's a giant flying pig. There's multiple Pegasuses. There's multiple water spirits. Poseidon consumes Oh, Typhen. Cut. Typhen never happens. Um the Poseidon shows up and like consumes Typhen into the ocean.
Definitely cut. Tyson is just with them the whole time. Um, in season 3, Tyson will have uh something to make the eye cheaper as well. But yeah, the the Poseidon takes out Typhen. That's cut. Like DK Moon says hope DCC adaptation is pretty good. The thing about DCC that makes it a little bit easier than this show is a it's not a it's like the most um it's not old, right? Percy Jackson is trying to make money off of nostalgia by making a children's show for adults who loved a children's book when they were kids. And that is a tough group of people to get a lot of money out of.
Percy Jackson hasn't been a hit in a long time. Dutch Carl is arguably the biggest book series in the world right now. If you go to any Barnes & Noble in Canada, it is. There are signs for it in the window. They're running every pro or we don't have Barnes & Noble, but we have Chapters in Indigo. I say Barnes & Noble because most of the people watching us are American. I want you to understand what I'm talking about. There are signs in the window being like, "Hey, if you buy all we'll give you 20% off if you buy all of the DCC books as a bundle." It is the biggest thing in the world right now.
Whereas Percy Jackson was pretty big 15 years ago. You know what I mean? And it's just tough to make the money that way. Have you read the whole saga of Rick Ryden trying to make Percy Jackson movie not suck? No, but I know he doesn't like the movie, right? I'm not going to lie. I I like the first movie just fine. I I think that um I enjoyed the first movie.
I enjoyed it when it came out. Um I haven't seen it since, but I thought the first one was fun. I thought the first one, based on what I remember, the first one was um the first one was fun in a way that the TV show isn't. And I think the first one got the vibe of the books right, even though it's more inaccurate to the books.
Um, but I think the vibe of the first movie is closer to the vibe of the books than the show gets. I think the second movie was terrible. I I remember it being awful, but um the first movie I remember enjoying.
I'm calling it now. The final battle is just going to be like six people total on screen. No, they managed to get like 30 kids on screen at the end of season two in armor that didn't really fit all that well, but they they had like 30 kids on screen in season two. They they'll have a little bit more than that. There'll be more adults, I think, is what it'll be cuz that'll be cheaper than having a bunch of kids. So, Percy, but by then, [ __ ] Walker is going to be [ __ ] 6'5. Dude's growing like a [ __ ] He's going to fight a bunch of adults.
It'll be fun if it happens. I I don't see them getting past season 3, to be honest. Uh maybe they do. Uh I just think that uh with the economic realities of where things are going and I think it's going to be really tough for I I I don't know. I I I'm I'm anticipating season 3 will be the end of the show, but that's based on the viewership for season two being so much lower than season 1.
Uh DCC being a bit unhinged makes it easier to make it on a lower budget. We just get Donut to blame the AI for bad special effects.
Yeah. And I think that the fun thing about Donut is that like Donut is I was I was listening to Seth McFarland talk about Ted and the show Ted and how expensive Ted is, but Donut is just so much easier to have a physical prop attached to Carl's shoulder. Like I think that Donut is going to just live on Carl's shoulder for so much of that show and we're just going to get used to the visual being the two of them like this and so many shots are going to be them talking to each other like this because it's that saves so much money where Ted walks around on his own mostly in that show which just is a whole different rig. But I think there will be a physical thing on Carl's shoulder and they're only going to have to do his donut's mouth mostly. Um, but yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see what that show does. If the Wheel of Times anything is that no matter how good season three of a show is, there will be issues. Well, but the problem is season 3 was too late for Wheel of Time to get good Aridite, right? Like, and I agree with all the people that are like, "Yeah, but season they found their stride in season 3." It's like, yeah, they did. Season 3 is so much better than the first two seasons and it ends on a banger ch a banger episode, but you you they have just lost too much audience by then. And it's the same problem Percy Jackson's going to have is like even if season 3 is incredible, I do think that the way that Percy Jackson fans talk about the show online is the death nail of the show. Because even people who are like Percy Jackson books are my childhood complain about the show constantly and aren't that interested in it. And in in that like from that perspective, what what is the incentive for Disney to keep the show going if the fans of the books are also kind of like I don't know it they're they're not really doing what I want until she has her baby to ride. Oh yeah.
No, no. I'm talking about season one only. Jonathan, [ __ ] is a problem.
[ __ ] is [ __ ] is going to spend a lot of time in the Pokeball.
[snorts] [ __ ] will be in two episodes each season and that's about it.
But honestly, like I'll be really happy if DCC just has a really solid first season. I don't Here's the thing. I don't need an adaptation of DCC. The books are basically perfect. And Jeff Haye's performance in the audiobooks is so good. I don't know. I'm good. Like I I feel fed.
[ __ ] is appalled. I know. I know [ __ ] is appalled, but [ __ ] is expensive.
[ __ ] ain't cheap. [ __ ] is allowed to be appalled. [ __ ] is a pricey little [ __ ] [laughter] I wish more adaptations with the animation route. Oh, dude. I would give anything for like Studio Trigger to do the DCC anime. Give me give me Dungeon Crawler Carl in the Cyberpunk Edgeunners anime style. I would I would come I would just I would just our reactions would have to be censored from the waist down. I I would be I would lose my mind.
I just popped in, so I don't know if you already talked about this, but do you think the low-key misogyny continued in this book? And if so, how? Oh, I'll drew on. I talked about it. Trust me, I do think the low-key misogyny continues in this book. I think it is I think it's ultimately like the reason why I'm it's the biggest reason why I'm not that interested in continuing reading Ric Ryarden series is I don't I don't like the way he treats women and I don't like the way he not treats women I'm sure as a person he's I'm I don't want I I treats women in his books. I don't I'm not making any statements about how he treats women in his life. I'm sure he's a very nice guy and I don't think any of the misogyny in these books is intentional. I do actually think it is very accidental.
I don't like the way he handles females characters. Yeah. And I think that there's a lot of unintentional but deeply ingrained misogyny in the entirety of Percy Jackson. And I I don't know. It's it's in the way he describes female characters, particularly elderly female characters.
He's really sweet to Sally. Like Sally, Percy's mom is is such a sweet character. But I think in a very unfortunate way he captures the mind of a 2000 teenage boy.
I agree with that. I agree with that. I I but I do think it is a it is detrimental to the way that I view the world and it's a detriment to my desire to read more of his writing. Um I I and look I I think that women can be jealous. I'm not saying women can't be jealous or can't be rude or can't be gruff or it is just the consistency with the way he attributes that to all of these women that I find to be um the misogyny part, right? Like if the women were complex and contained multitudes, their rougher parts wouldn't be as like wouldn't feel as sort of grifty as this book makes them feel.
But this book paints Percy as a character who mostly sees negatives in women and is mostly judgmental of the women he sees. And I don't know. I I just I I didn't I don't like I don't like Percy's inner in the way he views women and the way that Percy's inner life talks about women. And like the thing is like The Last Olympian book came out in okay 2009. That's actually earlier than I thought. So yeah, like this is this is very early 2000s and I I think that young boys would get the wrong lesson from this book genuinely.
Have I listened to the sound booth version yet of Percy Jackson? No, I have not. Marius, is it better than the audiobook? I thought the audiobook react uh the I uh I haven't talked about it much. I think the audiobook narrator did a pretty banging job. Um I I don't know that I know what his name is off the top of my head right now. Uh, can I find it on the Wikipedia page? No, I don't think it's here. We should be We should be saying who does the audiobooks on the Wikipedia pages. I think um I I I think the I think the narrator of the audiobook does a pretty banging job. And I uh I think that he did a good job across the whole series. Um no, DCC. Oh, the DCC sound booth. No, I've only listened to the um the Jeff Hayes version. I didn't know there was another version. I don't know that I would want to do the sound booth version till I finish the book the first time. The the maybe after book eight I'll do the sound booth versions.
Especially with how fast [ __ ] grows.
That's not one prop. That's multiple.
They'd have to stop the growth. Yeah, I think [ __ ] will grow in the Pokeball really quickly and then be full full size ER real fast. Did you see that Epic will get an animation? Yes, I think that Epic getting an animation is the best thing possible. I know they were trying to do a stage show for a while and I think that that would have been a disaster financially. Um especially in the the the market of for like theater right now is just really really awful. I think that them getting an animated movie is incredible for Jorge. Like what a what a massive accomplishment of work that he did. Really really really cool. Jesse Bernstein. Yeah, Jesse Bernstein did a great job in these audio books. Um, Philiston says, "I feel like several people highlight misogyny, but lots of people don't talk about misundy that exists in several stories." Philiston, if you want to talk about the misery that you see in the Percy Jackson series, please bring it up. If there's if there's misery in uh Percy Jackson, please drop it in the chat. I would love to talk about it with you. I don't think that this series uh has a lot of misery in it personally. Um it would be I think it would be hard to find it since almost every uh main character is a white man uh with an incredible amount of it's mostly superpowers and gods who are white men.
So I I I think it would be hard to say that this series is a misinterest. Um, it's mostly only negative in the way that it describes women. Uh, there's no female main character who isn't described as being incredibly jealous at one point or another. So, sure, if you want to if you want if you have an example in these five books that you want to bring up as misendry, go ahead. I will happily talk about it with you. But I don't know, bud. I think you might be barking up the wrong tree with this particular series.
Uh, I wouldn't have mango appear till third season. If the show is making money, then spend the manga money. No, I wouldn't change anything. Third season is going to be third floor, right? I think they have to do they have to introduce [ __ ] when they can. I think they just put him in a Pokéball. I think that they introduce [ __ ] It's a very funny scene where [ __ ] is running around destroying things and then they get the Pokeball almost immediately. They throw [ __ ] in the Pokeball. A few episodes later, uh, Donut lets [ __ ] out of the Pokeball and is like, "I've been practicing in our safe space with him." And look at how well behaved he is. Ah, good boy, [ __ ] [ __ ] like bites the head off something that is not immediately bites the head off something he's not supposed to.
She's like, "Oh, still some more training to go." And then in like season 3, [ __ ] is around more. I think, but I do think we'll see [ __ ] when he's introduced in the book. It'll just he'll be in for like two scenes over the course of the first two seasons just to be present. Jeff Hayes is the founder of sound booth. He does a more produced version of DCC that has bigger cast and does more sound effects. I haven't listened to it. I'll have to check that out. I think that sounds fantastic.
Ardite says, "I would find some misery from Ric Ryarden refreshing to be honest."
Deluxe Frog says, "Why are you reading Percy Jackson? Nostalgia reasons." I've never read it before, so no, I have nostalgia for this. Uh I won't have nostalgia for this. I didn't like the last two books very much. I'll be honest. Um so I have a book club, Deluxe Frog, called the Nerdy Worthy Book Club.
We've been reading fantasy books on this channel for um over four years now doing this podcast. We've done hundreds of episodes, literally hundreds of episodes, which is crazy. Uh and so Percy Jackson was the latest series that uh I've been covering since the beginning of the year and I've been giving my thoughts on it. So that's why every time you say [ __ ] I think of the character from Blazing Saddles. Very different [ __ ] Very different [ __ ] [laughter] >> [snorts] >> What is the name of the book you're now talking about now? DCC, Dungeon Crawler Carl. Uh, it's a series of books. Uh, Dungeon Crawler Carl is a sci-fi modern fantasy book uh series by Matt Deniman.
If you are going to Gen Con, my friend Taylor is actually playing This is crazy. Okay, they are playing the Dungeon Crawler Carl TTRPG on stage at Gen Con with Matt Dinaman as a player and with um Jeff Hayes as a player. My friend Taylor's [ __ ] in it. One of the Maroy in it. I can never I I can't tell the Maroys apart, but one of the Maroys is in it. The craziest stage show ever. I'm so jealous of my friend Taylor. She's going to have such a blast. It's such a cool experience. Uh go. I cannot wait to see Matt Deniman play the DCC TRPG live. Although, will there be spoilers? I might not be able to go to that panel because I won't be caught up by then.
No, I imagine they'll No, they'll they'll make it spoiler-free because they'll know that it's an opportunity to get people into the books.
We're just talking about Dutch call now.
Y'all, let's end book club. Um, we're going to call it here. Uh, ultimately, I think that, uh, good for Rick Ryarden.
He made a [ __ ] ton of money and, uh, a bunch of people call him Uncle Rick. For me, three really, really solid books, two less solid books, but uh, an enjoyable few months of reading and I'm glad that I have now read them. I might read the other ones in the future. I might review them. I probably won't book club them.
But um has this TRPG released or is this like a beta play? It is currently on backer kit. So if you want to sign up for it, you can currently uh sign up for the backer kit for the dcc TRPG, but it is not yet out.
Um although I know people have like seen it. Apparently it's very good. Um but I haven't seen it yet or played it. So hopefully soon. Uh y'all, thank you so much for a great book club. My high of this book has to be uh the um H I think it is.
I was going to say I was going to say my high for this book is I'm going to give it to Clarice killing the dragon. That moment [ __ ] And then like Selena dying was like emotional.
The last line. Oh yeah, the high is the last line. No, that's actually a really good point, Jar. The high is the last line. and for the first time I didn't look back is got to be the high. Uh my low of this book is just sort of the fact that it it didn't hold together for me, you know. Uh if you like the video, like, subscribe to the channel. If you don't, leave the comments down below because the algorithm goddess is hungry.
We must feed her. Algorithm goddess this episode is Oh boy. I guess we'll give it to Annabeth Chase. If you want to follow me on the internet, you can. I'm nerdy nightly. Uh, still not doing any smut corner on these books because they are still all children. Uh, even though Luke was like, "Do you love me?" Uh, and Bryce says, "I backed it for far too much money the other day. I wasn't supposed to be back, I think, this year, but somehow I I can't believe how much money I put in the Cyberpunk TCG, so I get it." Uh, Percy saying gods to pay child support. [laughter] [snorts] All right, y'all. Thank you so much for a great book club. I will see you all next week for The Expanse book four. Uh, I'm going to go watch the first ever professional women's basketball game in Toronto tonight. So, if you're going to the Toronto Tempo game, say hi. Do something nerdy tonight. Bye.
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