An Influencer Exploited Me

追加: 2026-05-11

[00:00:00]She totally betrayed me and took advantage of me. She was willing to be an active participant in the trial against me or my grandfather supporting a child sex abuser. There was intention on her part and I was too afraid to go into my Instagram messages and check.

[00:00:15]There's not a word to describe the violating feeling I felt. I feel like physically nauseous. And the fact that she did exactly the freaking opposite.

[00:00:25]You can't go further from that. You're like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[00:00:37]Welcome to Silent No More. I'm your host, Yeti, and I'm genuinely so glad you're here. This podcast is about listening to the voices of survivors of child sexual abuse with the goal of raising awareness, educating our communities, and challenging the silence that allows this abuse to thrive.

[00:00:50]Whether you're a parent, educator, advocate, ally, or simply someone that wants to know more about this issue, this space is for you. Before we begin, please know that this episode contains sensitive content about trauma and abuse. If you're a survivor and need support, we've included resources in the episode description. This podcast is intended for adult audiences ages 18 and older. Please take care while listening.

[00:01:11]Hi Ricky, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:13]>> Hi, thank you for having me.

[00:01:15]>> For sure. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for being willing and open to do this. Do you want to introduce yourself?

[00:01:22]>> Sure. I'm Ricky. I am a licensed clinical social worker. I work in Rockland and Orange County and New York.

[00:01:29]I also have my doctorate um and I studied religious trauma. So, I think that that's going to be relevant in this conversation. And yeah, that's pretty much it.

[00:01:41]>> That's fascinating. Religious trauma is like a beast of its own, but it is intertwined with child sexual abuse.

[00:01:49]>> Oh, yeah. So much. like when you get down into the research of it, it's like it's like they're one and the same. Like you can't, you know, you can't escape it.

[00:01:59]>> Yeah. I would love to see some of your research papers. I actually did um a research paper on child sexual abuse in insular communities. My my question was, is it more prevalent in insular communities? And the answer is yes. But I had to do all these theories as to why.

[00:02:19]>> Yeah. You know, and it's has to do with religion a lot. Trust in leaders and not trusting outside communities and >> Yes. And so much around sex education that makes a big difference like especially when it comes to incest abuse. There's a lot in there too like around sexual repression or not like I'm speaking specifically in the Orthodox community like when boys are taught certain things about you know about sex and or the little bit they're taught let's say around masturbation how that's >> and there's no difference to them between the you know sinning because they're masturbating and sinning by you know inappropriately touching their sibling or some you know so when you don't have that distinction Then of course there's going to be more of that.

[00:03:07]You know, >> it's so real. It's so I know I know people that have experienced that like incest abuse by siblings because there's just no education.

[00:03:17]>> Wow. I feel like we could have such a good conversation about that. First of all, I just want to say like thank you for trusting me to be a part of this conversation. I feel like this story and I know a little bit of it. So, you know, but even the little bit that I know and I know it's so personal to you. It's it's such a big part of your own, you know, trauma recovery and it's so delicate and it's so much. So, like, thank you for trusting me to be part of this conversation with you. Thank you.

[00:03:44]And I think, you know, and we'll we can, you know, get more into this when we talk about the advocacy piece, but I think like so many people don't want to touch this in general because it's so like it feels so dirty and it's it's so unfair because like you didn't cause it.

[00:04:02]So like why should it be dirty, you know? Like why does it feel like >> And it's understandable that people don't want to touch it.

[00:04:10]>> Yeah.

[00:04:11]>> You know, I get it.

[00:04:13]>> Yeah. and and also like it needs to be talked about. So, you know, people have to be willing to, you know, I guess get their hands a little dirty and have these conversations that that really again shouldn't be dirty, but like just are. And so, you know, I'm I'm happy that we're talking about this and that like you're coming forward and and sharing this story. So, so can you like backtrack and just like I'm so curious as to, you know, why did you reach out to this influencer? Like what and what did you share with her and what was like the leadup to that?

[00:04:47]>> Yeah, such good question. So, when my grandfather was first arrested, there was news articles, I think, you know, like a few news outlets, you know, just wrote in the news that he was arrested for this and this and this. and I sent it to her and I asked her if she would share it. You know how like in our community especially in insular communities people don't speak up about these things but when one person does speak up other victims feel empowered to come forward. That's what I was hoping for because I know he has other victims.

[00:05:19]I have personally spoken to his other victims. Uh not all of them some of them one or two of them whatever or people that know people whatever. And I was hoping that more victims would come forward also because you know how a case gets stronger when there's more people you know my case is like 20 something years 30 almost 30 years old you know so that's what I was hoping for her response was very supportive she said wow I cannot believe it you usually don't see family members you know standing up to you know their abusers so you mentioned that like she was really supportive and that your intention was to like, you know, like put it out there because, like you said, people don't usually put that stuff out there and don't really talk about child sexual abuse and it was a way to like invite more victims to come forward and those are all so important. I guess I'm curious too like based on this particular influencer like what were some of the reasons you went to her specifically? Like what are some of the stuff that she's done? like what made you think like okay she's the right person to go to?

[00:06:32]>> Yeah. So also really good question. She has previously posted first of all I met her personally like 10 years ago you know we worked on something together.

[00:06:43]Um, so she knows me, I know her not well, but you know, and she has um posted about other child sex abusers and more recently she's been, you know, a staunch supporter or it looks like she's a staunch supporter of Auna victims and and she really um advocates for them and tries to get them a divorce.

[00:07:11]>> Right. So in your mind, she's this is somebody who like clearly supports people who are like the underdogs who are being victimized by like these big powerful forces, especially in the community. Um, and she's like out there putting herself out there supporting these people and then she went and did what she did allegedly.

[00:07:37]>> Exactly. I like how you put it. Exactly.

[00:07:40]I think she put herself in a position that advocates for abuse victims, plain and simply. I think she would even say that herself, right? I don't know.

[00:07:52]>> It's interesting cuz I'm thinking about what we were saying earlier about like people not wanting to like touch these like seemingly like dirty topics. And I think that like one of the things that she really I think says about herself is like I'm the only one who's willing to, you know, to go there and to do all the things that I do. And it's like no one else wants to get their hands dirty in the way that I'm willing to. And then this happens. You know, my grandfather was arrested in 2021, I think, maybe 2022. I'm not sure. And we didn't have trial until 2024. This process takes a very long time. Somewhere in between that process, the prosecutor and the detective emailed me that they want to have a meeting with me. I, you know, had a Zoom conversation with them because they're in Canada and they said, you know, we have not such good news for you. Um, apparently you messaged an influencer about this case and they have the evidence. They have all the conversations. They have all the voice notes and they want to bring it into trial as evidence.

[00:08:59]So, what's going to happen is that there's going to be two separate hearings before the trial to see if it could be admitted into evidence for the trial. So it prolonged the case and the fear I felt for simply messaging someone from my own private phone and other people had the messages. I was like I was shook. I I Yeah. And I they didn't tell me who it was at that point and I was too afraid to go into my Instagram messages and check. So, I was like, "Whatever. I don't want to know who it is. I'll find out when I find out."

[00:09:46]>> Yeah. And I'm guessing like, did you find out from the court or you did your own like backtracking in your messages to find that out?

[00:09:54]>> So, I didn't. They gave me my own lawyer for this case separate from the prosecutors. They're like, "We think you need to have your own lawyer." She sent me the screenshots and the voice notes.

[00:10:06]>> Wow. Okay. There's not a word to describe the um violating feeling I felt getting my private messages, my private screenshot from a lawyer that got it from his defense who got I don't know who it went through. It went through so many hands. Everyone saw this like >> Yeah.

[00:10:31]>> so violating.

[00:10:32]>> I feel like physically nauseous. like I I had this like such a like gut like like my stomach just turned when you said that. She never did post it, which also begs the question, how did my grandfather or whoever his defense or who whoever that was in touch with her, how did they know that I messaged her? She never posted anything about it.

[00:10:56]>> That's so weird. like bizarre and and also kind of speaks to like whatever happened means that there was intention on her part to go after this and you know so I'm also curious you know like what was it like when you got you know now I guess we're going back to that like that moment where you get that I guess we know that message from the lawyer and you get these screenshots and these voice notes and it's this person.

[00:11:28]>> I had a feeling it was her because I didn't really message a lot of people about it. Um, it could it could have been like her or like one other person.

[00:11:36]It was so violating. I felt violated. My stomach like literally dropped, you know, and it it dropped for a couple months, you know. Also, I want people to understand that if it was admitted into trial, in the end it wasn't, but maybe I'm jumping ahead too much. if it was admitted into trial, she was willing to be witness in my trial against me for my grandfather. So that's also part of it.

[00:12:06]She didn't just send the screenshots.

[00:12:07]She was willing to be an active participant in the trial against me for my grandfather supporting a child sex abuser. It's so wild. It's so wild.

[00:12:20]Right. cuz like she would have to come and testify in court and like authenticate those messages in order for it to even like be admitted into evidence probably, right? So like that's crazy that she would go to that length to support an abuser. I feel like I'm missing information. I did reach out to her um a couple weeks ago. I very respectfully, you know, because it could be I don't understand everything about the advocacy space she's in or how she does things. And so I just asked, you know, could it be I don't understand, you know, why did you do this? And she never responded. She saw the message, but she didn't respond.

[00:12:56]>> Wow. Yeah. I like I don't know how you come back from that.

[00:13:03]>> It's very It's I don't know how to describe it cuz it's so betraying. Like I trusted and I think a lot of people trust her.

[00:13:16]Trust that she's doing good work that she's doing that you can trust her that she will stand up to abusers for victims. And the fact that she did exactly the freaking opposite like you can't go further from that.

[00:13:33]That's that's the furthest you could go from standing up for victims.

[00:13:38]>> Yeah. And and I like I think to the point like you know if somebody doesn't support victims and they're kind of like open about that then it's like okay I know like you know we have choice words for you but like fine but then if you like you're like a wolf in sheep's clothing like you're coming as like this advocate and then you're backstabbing the victim and like engaging in all of the behaviors that the abuser themselves engaged in, right? like the violation and the betrayal. Like it's crazy.

[00:14:10]>> Yeah.

[00:14:12]Ironic, betraying, hypocritical.

[00:14:16]>> Exactly. You make really good points.

[00:14:18]Yeah. And I want to point out what the defense was trying to do with these messages. What they were trying to prove. They were trying to prove that I wasn't a victim myself and I was just trying to get justice for other victims.

[00:14:33]It's very interesting. Like, >> wait. And how were they going to use these particular messages to prove that?

[00:14:40]>> Because I said I want other victims to come forward and I wanted to publicize it. Also, you have to think about it.

[00:14:48]They were admitting that there are other victims, but we're just saying like I'm not a victim. And that totally passes in court.

[00:14:57]>> That's crazy. Actually, just like side point. That's crazy.

[00:15:01]>> Yeah.

[00:15:02]>> Whoa.

[00:15:03]Yeah, the legal system, you know, >> it's not perfect.

[00:15:07]>> I'm so curious like do you like I wonder if she'll ever respond or like you know.

[00:15:14]>> Me too.

[00:15:16]>> How did you like recover from I mean I don't know if you recovered from it but like how did you work through that?

[00:15:23]>> I don't know that I have yet to be honest. Like I really haven't told many people about it. Whoever I have told it was like under like confidentiality.

[00:15:33]I don't know. I think I still am. I don't I don't know. Like I'm still recovering from the trial itself, you know.

[00:15:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:42]>> Yeah.

[00:15:43]>> Yeah.

[00:15:44]>> The whole system. I mean, this just like, you know, blows more holes in the system, but like the idea that it's all it's all so vulnerable to begin with and then like they have to put that all in display to be like countered like you know like they're trying to prove you wrong. So like you have to like take all of that and put it out there. Like it just makes so much sense that people don't come forward and like prosecute cuz like you already went through hell.

[00:16:12]like why put yourself through more hell?

[00:16:14]>> So many times throughout the like four years from when I first reported until the end of trial, I was like, "Wow, I understand why people die by suicide. I was never suicidal. That's not like one of my things, but I was like, "Wow, I to it was unbearable. It was unbearable at times." And I had support.

[00:16:40]Many survivors don't have support.

[00:16:43]>> It's crazy. And then, you know, and I don't know if this is true for your grandfather, although we're looking at, we're talking about somebody who claimed to advocate for victims and then ended up supporting your grandfather. So, maybe this definitely rings true, but like I would imagine your grandfather had a lot of support in the courtroom.

[00:17:00]>> Yeah. I had family members that uh testified on his behalf.

[00:17:05]>> Wow.

[00:17:06]>> So, essentially against me. Yeah.

[00:17:10]That's also such a betrayal. Like such a freaking betrayal. Like we all know. We all know what he did. We all know that he's done this not only to me.

[00:17:22]>> Yeah. And it's it's so crazy cuz like within the community there are so few and I think this also like speaks to the betrayal aspect from this particular influencer. There are so few people who are willing to like you know advocate for survivors and you know advocate support speak you know abuse like and put their names and faces to it you know like it's really easy to have the people in the shadows who like will privately support you but then won't actually do it in a meaningful way that like can help you in that situation. But people have no problem like like proudly with like putting their faces and names to support abusers. And it's just wild.

[00:18:08]>> It's so wild. The abusers are way more protected and supported than than victims. Simple as that.

[00:18:16]>> Yeah. I'm thinking like this is just like a throwback moment that I'm remembering now when all of the stuff came out around Caim Walder. And at that point, I feel like that was like a little bit a breaking point for people to be like, oh, like, okay, so this really exists. As much as there were like people who like spoke out against him and like you know got rid of the books and whatever, like I remember seeing the funeral and how many people like thou like by the thousands showed up for that funeral and it was like am I living in an alternate reality? Like what what am I missing? It hurts me. It hurts. It hurts so much to see that this advocacy work is really really hard, you know, like I have to put myself out there and it hurts. I get a I get push back, you know, not even push back, people that simply just don't believe that it's an issue or like, you know, be like, but the victim this and the victim that, and try to discount the victim, but they're not even doing it in in a in a mean way.

[00:19:30]They don't mean to be mean. They just don't know.

[00:19:35]And it's so hard. It's so hard to counter it with respect, which I always do, try to do, which I always try to do, because it's triggering for me also. You know, there's a little me that lives inside me that was hurt by one of these people. And I have to try not to cry and try to stay levelheaded by speaking about it and standing up for myself and all other victims. It's very hard.

[00:20:06]>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think like something that I I think shows up across the board is that, you know, survivors talk so much about like the abuse itself, but then the not being believed is like the killer. And it's kind of crazy because like it doesn't even like it doesn't even take that much to just believe somebody, you know, to be like, I hear you. I see you. I believe you. You know, like what what does that require? Like no one's asking you to go protest. No one's asking you to show up in court.

[00:20:35]Like it's just a matter of being like wow that happened to you and like period end of sentence. Like so it's wild that there's this like innate like push back of like trying to discredit the victim like you're saying why like why is that such like an automatic response from so many people? I literally sometimes lay awake at night thinking why I think there's a lot of reasons. I think you know the cognitive dissonance is just it's too much. just too much to think that that is possible especially if you know the person and then I think some people some people could be protecting themselves you know maybe they have similar tendencies or have done similar things and so they just don't want to go there they want to say no all this doesn't happen or all victims are lying you know what are >> I'm thinking like the cognitive dissonance for sure like you know just having to hold the truth that somebody that was maybe well respected and well established and someone that people looked up to can also do those things.

[00:21:45]like it's it's really really hard to reckon with especially I think in places like religious communities where things are very often presented as very black and white you know so like good people only do good things and bad people only do bad things as opposed to like humans are really complex and people can do really awful things and also do really amazing things and they don't you know one doesn't discredit the other but But we also have to hold them accountable for the bad things that they've done.

[00:22:19]>> Exactly. So that's what I'm trying to do with this specifically also. Like we have to call it out.

[00:22:26]>> Yeah.

[00:22:27]Like going back to your experience with this like with this particular advocate like I'm curious if there at any point were any like moments when you sh after you shared what you did with her like where you thought like if there was ever any like sense that you got that like oh like I shared with somebody that maybe I don't have the best feeling about or I don't trust her or you know anything like that. Interestingly, no, because she's such a staunch advocate and she's fierce, you know, and it looks like to the viewer that she will do anything to stand up for victims. It's hard to know or to see that someone is that inauthentic. Or maybe it's not inauthentic. Maybe it's like just I don't know, confused. I was going to say self- serving because I feel like she she probably got something out of that.

[00:23:25]I mean, I could only imagine. But even still, like that that's that's like a pretty deep level of self-s serving. Um, >> that's such a great distinction. Yeah.

[00:23:36]So, how can you tell if an advocate is selfserving or serving the public?

[00:23:44]>> Yeah, that was my next question. It's like what? Because this unfortunately like this is not like advoc advocacy spaces have their flaws too and like people who are in advocacy spaces are not necessarily like trustworthy and people that you should open up to and be vulnerable with and how do we distinguish in that sense?

[00:24:09]>> I think uh maybe a red flag that you mentioned in another conversation I just want to give you credit is respect.

[00:24:18]is if they respect every single human.

[00:24:23]Like sure, did the person do something terrible? Yes. They still deserve our respect. We cannot go and dehumanize them, you know. And maybe looking back like that that could have been a red flag like you know just how she talks about people or talks to people. Yeah. And I feel like it's it's uh it's tough because like when we're talking about people who have done like horrible things, it's so easy to fall into that like let's just bash them and say terrible things about them to them, you know, whatever it is. to be able to maintain a level of composure around that and like and it's not even so much about them. I feel like it's so much more about us staying close to our own humanity because like we need to like be able to stay within that bounds because I and that's what I think happens. It's like the minute you you are able to do that to other people then that's it.

[00:25:28]Like we lost our own humanity and that's it. And then wow, >> you know, it's really easy to do terrible things.

[00:25:36]>> I love that. I love how you put that.

[00:25:38]It's kind of like a slippery slope.

[00:25:41]>> Yeah, >> I agree. I agree. Like even, you know, the whole time during the trial, I'm not saying I'm amazing, but I'm saying I really tried to think of my grandfather as a little boy.

[00:25:57]And to have compassion for that little boy because I know he went through terrible things. He must have. You don't just You're not born like this. I don't think so. I think you can have a genetic predisposition, but I think trauma does stuff like that. That doesn't mean I am still not holding him accountable and it doesn't mean I am angry and I know he shouldn't have done that and he should still be held accountable. It just means that you can hold both at the same time and I still have to treat him with respect. I don't respect I don't mean like cub of not saying, right? You know, that's where Yeah.

[00:26:38]>> Yeah.

[00:26:39]>> I can I just say like that that I feel like that like demonstrates first of all like so much like inner strength that you possess to be able to do that. So, like that's incredible and again like really speaks to like your ability to stay close to your humanity to be able to do that cuz I think anyone would be totally you know validating of you if you would be like cursing him out and you know spreading I don't know what like just like you know raging about him anywhere and everywhere like that would be so valid and the fact that you are able to do that I feel like is you know like I said just like really represents who you are as a person.

[00:27:21]>> Yeah. So I thank you. I think it ties back to, you know, the red flags and advocacy spaces or or how survivors could know who to trust. And then you you also mentioned selfrespect, you know, boundaries.

[00:27:34]>> Yeah.

[00:27:36]Do you want to say more about that?

[00:27:37]>> Yeah. Um, well, I think, you know, like as far as boundaries go, like when we see people who are acting out of their own boundaries, I feel like it's like it's kind of telling that like you they they can't be trusted. Like I I love that you kind of put it into like self-respect. Like when we were talking about it earlier, you know, we were like trying to break this down and you were like, "Oh, boundaries, self-respect."

[00:28:01]Yes. And it was so like it it just kind of really tied that together. But yeah, I think like I think in in advocacy spaces also like and and some of it is well-meaning. I think a lot of it is well-meaning, but it's so important for people in in that space especially to have like good solid boundaries around what they can and cannot do, what they you know what they say and don't say, what you know like whether it's like the hours that they're working uh like when they pick up the phone, what what their role is. is I think a lot of times there's a lot of like role confusion like they're showing up in this way and then showing up in that way and like they don't even know themselves like what they're supposed to be doing. And again, I think in a lot of ways it's it's coming from a place of like well-meaning, like I want to be here and be in service and help, but in a lot of ways it like it again it kind of feels like it can be very like like it's a slippery slope again, right, to that like to like now there can just do anything and everything and and and like it it it's like not contained. I love how you gave examples and those are good ones because it could be simple hours worked, you know, so simple to all the way to role confusion what they're willing to do. Yeah. And I can say this, you know, and and I think this is like this shows up in like therapy spaces too, unfortunately, where and I and I think like I think we've moved away in a certain sense from like the olden days of therapists being like blank slate and like that kind of way. And I and it's hard because as therapists like navigating that space of of the like the boundaries can can be it's a lot of like intentional work but unfortunately like you know that's sometimes seen as well where like like therapists can act out of bounds and often also in a well-meaning way that ends up doing harm in some way.

[00:29:58]>> Yeah. Or being against you know the ethics of >> Yeah.

[00:30:03]>> being a therapist. I've seen that many times as well. And it it usually comes from good intention, wanting to help the person, >> but it doesn't mean you should not have boundaries.

[00:30:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think what's scary in the advocacy world is that there isn't a code of ethics holding you accountable.

[00:30:19]Like there isn't, you know, your license on the line, you know, it's kind of a free-for-all.

[00:30:25]>> Scary.

[00:30:26]>> Yeah, it is a free-for-all.

[00:30:29]And I I find a lot of times the loudest voice wins. And I just want to say too like I think both respect towards others, you know, and like not dehumanizing others and having boundaries and selfrespect is really like the core at at of like having integrity. And I feel like that's just another like important like word to just even put out there cuz I think you know unfortunately we live in a world where not not very many many people uh like are showing up with integrity. So, it's hard to spot it and know what that looks like. And I feel like that's kind of what we just explained.

[00:31:07]>> Such good distinctions.

[00:31:09]>> Yeah.

[00:31:09]>> Such good distinctions. And I And I think that's helpful. Really helpful.

[00:31:14]>> If I would have heard that prior to reaching out to her, maybe I wouldn't have. Also, when you're in such a situation when you're where you're like, there really is no one. There's not many advocates for this cause, so there's not a lot to choose from.

[00:31:29]>> Yeah. And that also I think speaks to something that's just so like that feels so like delicate when like what you're saying when there are so few people who are willing to go there and you have such people who are so desperate you know I think victims of abuse aunas right like these are people who are so disempowered and so desperate to be seen and to be heard and to be supported and to be believed and to have someone with the loud voice who can fight for them when you know that when they they don't have the wherewithal or the power to do it themselves. Um and really who can like we can't fight these battles ourselves you know and so you take somebody who is so desperate and so vulnerable and then that happens it's just like heartbreaking.

[00:32:22]>> It's abusive. It's abuse. It's It's uh >> I don't know if you're looking for the word predatory, but I would say predatory.

[00:32:29]>> 100% predatory.

[00:32:31]>> It's not the word I was thinking of, but 100% predatory. And also an abuse of power.

[00:32:37]>> Yes.

[00:32:37]>> Which is also predatory, but Yeah.

[00:32:39]>> Yeah.

[00:32:40]>> It's literally the exact same. Not exact cuz it's not sexual, but the idea is the same as what the child sex abuser is doing.

[00:32:50]>> Yes.

[00:32:51]>> I want to talk about my sweater for a minute. This is the front and this is the back. This is better safe than silent merch. It's called swag for survivors and 20% of the proceeds go to the healing efforts of victims because healing is expensive. Therapy I think the estimated lifetime cost of being a victim of child sex abuse is over $200,000. It is very expensive to heal.

[00:33:15]And I want to help survivors. That's why I'm here. And so if you purchase a sweater like this one, it comes in many different colors. You will be supporting survivors and helping them heal. I also have it in ally. So if you're not a survivor, you can get an ally. Or you don't have to be a survivor of child sex abuse. You can be a survivor of anything to wear the sweater. I hope you enjoy it. It's very cozy and comfortable, and I can't wait to see you all wearing it.

[00:33:44]What changes do you think communities desperately need?

[00:33:49]>> Where do we start with that? Are you referring to like any particular community or communities in general?

[00:33:56]>> I think our communities because that that's where really this pertains to to many many different communities. This is not a problem that just we have. This is a universal problem. I just want to be very clear about that. But since you know we're in our community, >> yeah, >> maybe we should start there.

[00:34:15]>> Yeah. So I wanted like I think one point that we had talked about previously like earlier um in earlier conversations was around the um the issue of institutional betrayal and that feels like an important place to you know hang out and I think so many of the things we touched on already speak to that and what that is exactly what it sounds like but it's you know when people are betrayed by institutions and like and the trauma that comes from that is like is is very specific and really soul crushing. And I think within the community where that shows up and why why that's so crushing is that people like especially children like a lot of this we're talking about kids right like they we grow up thinking like these institutions like the the schools the rabbis the things that we're learning around um you know any like Jewish education all of that is pure and good and is like the ultimate right and then you have this experience of being abused by somebody who claims to have, you know, have authority in that space.

[00:35:28]Um, and then, you know, and betrayed by them, violated. And then you have the institutional backing, right? Like the people who are going to write letters to the court and are going to show up and who don't believe the victim and and you're silenced and told you're crazy and, you know, and you don't have any like no one's there. No one's in your corner and everyone's in the abusers's corner and just that the level of betrayal like that is institutional betrayal when you have so much faith in a system that ultimately betrays you and like I said it's it's absolutely like soul crushing to experience.

[00:36:08]>> Yeah, that's the word I was thinking of.

[00:36:10]Crushing.

[00:36:10]>> Yeah, >> it's crushing. You're taught to to to have faith in the system. Yes, >> you're taught to believe in it that it's good that they're going to have your back and then when they don't on the most basic fundamental level, it's crushing.

[00:36:29]>> Yeah. So, you ask this question of like, well, what do we need to do? And it's like we're we're really, you know, fighting a system. I I think there's willingness in some ways to change it, you know. I think that it's certainly like it's grown more in that direction in the last you know 10 years or so like you know this was a different conversation like in the early 2000s or in the '90s but even still I feel like there's just so much there's such a long way to go and so much of it is in the attitude and like the minimization and the dismissal of these experiences like still happening on the regular and still like as much as there's like you know, all these like efforts for like abuse prevention or education to some degree.

[00:37:18]Like it it feels like such a tiny drop in the bucket.

[00:37:22]>> It is a tiny drop in the bucket, but we're just trying to do what we can, you know?

[00:37:26]>> Yeah.

[00:37:27]>> And this is why we're here. We're we're literally showing up for this. In terms of like advocacy spaces, like what changes do we need in that? Like yeah, we need we need people to act with integrity, to have integrity, but is there something else? I I would hope that there is something else. I don't know if you know I'm curious. Well, now you're in this like an advocacy space and I'm curious how that's been for you around some of these things that we've talked about and if you've you know if you've done something to create structure around what you're doing to make sure that like you're a place that's doing this right. So that's a good question. Well, first of all, I'm becoming a therapist. I'm in grad school to be a social worker. And I think that learning the code of ethics and really applying it the same way is super helpful. And I think also having boundaries, like let's say some of my boundaries are, you know, we discussed this before, so that's why I'm bringing it up. Like when I do an interview with someone, sometimes the abuser's family reaches out to try to say like it's not true, whatever. I don't interact. That's not why I'm here. I have no, you know, like do they deserve to speak to someone? Yes, but that's not my space.

[00:38:52]I'm here for the victims and that's what I'm going to do. I can't do it all. It's too much. That's not why I'm here.

[00:39:00]uh that that's not what I'm doing. And then I also think it's like kind of evolving, you know, my advocacy work.

[00:39:06]Like first I started with like posts and whatever. Then I thought of the podcast, then I did some education to staff and schools. And I think I'm just trying to see like where I could advocate the best in the most meaningful way. And I'm writing a children's book. I'm so excited about that.

[00:39:25]>> Yeah.

[00:39:25]>> What can you tell me about that?

[00:39:27]>> It's so amazing. I cannot wait for it to come out and it's it's amazing. It's called My Body Is Mine. These different scenarios where children may find themselves in and it's all said in a very practical light. It's rhyming and it's just like how to stand up for yourself.

[00:39:44]>> I love that.

[00:39:45]>> And I love what you were saying about like your boundaries. Like it sounds like like we were I was saying earlier about role confusion. Like there's no role confusion. Like you know who you're here for and what your like role is and and you're sticking with that. And I feel like it's it can be so easy and like that's like I I feel like I need to say that too in terms of like advocates like and I've been in those places where like it's so easy to get pulled into that like of course I want to like talk to these people and argue with them or you know just like have conversations with them and you know especially when like you feel so passionate about this and like you want the the victim to be believed and you want them to be supported and and all of that. So, like again, it can be so well-meaning but also so detrimental and really detract from the what you're really wanting to do. So, like kudos. I think I'm evolving and and seeing where I can make a difference cuz that's really the goal, you know? It's not about me at all.

[00:40:38]Someone asked on my Instagram page the other week like why are you doing this?

[00:40:42]Like there's other people that do this already. I'm like we need to have more people. One or two people is not enough.

[00:40:49]like why are we stopping there? You know, I don't know why people are so afraid of it. That's such an interest because I it's funny like right as you were saying that I was like you know what we really need we really need to like spread this into like like I feel like it needs to become so normalized to be cuz what ends up happening it's like oh like you know that crazy lady who talks about you know CSA and it's kind of like you know you're in this like little corner of the world and you're like that person as opposed to like no we're actually a full community of people who support survivors and hold abusers accountable and that being normalized as opposed to like, oh, you're already talking about like whatever other other crazy people are already talking about this. You know what someone recently said about me and which is hurtful, but I think it also speaks to what exactly you're talking about. Someone said that I make my trauma my whole personality. It's hurtful. I still think about it a lot.

[00:41:46]Well, it just happened recently, but Oh, and they finished it off with, "And it's so sad." But they don't understand. It's not sad. It's not sad. It's empowering.

[00:41:59]There's nothing sad about it. I don't want what happened to me to happen to other people, >> right?

[00:42:06]>> That's it.

[00:42:06]>> Right. And like people missed the point on that, >> right?

[00:42:10]>> Yeah. That's horrible. I'm sorry that happened.

[00:42:13]>> Yeah. And I love I do love the the condescending like pitiful like and it's so sad but and I think like you said that so speaks to like how this work is kind of looked at in general which is only the crazies talk about it and you know and they're few and far between and they're you know just stuck on these like traumas that they experienced.

[00:42:40]>> Exactly. And that's why we need more people. And I think everybody brings different aspect to it. A different we have different mediums. We have different ways of approaching it. We don't all speak to the same people. Not everyone will want to hear from me. Not everyone will want to hear from someone else. We don't connect all to everybody.

[00:43:00]We need many people on this. Yeah. Like whoa. I just got this like visual in my head. Do you remember like the internet asa that happened like in I don't know like Metife stadium or something crazy where like tens of thousands of people were showing up and like imagine something like that would happen to address the issue of child sexual abuse in the community like straight up upfront just like that and then what we would have is like the expertise of you know organization number one who has dealt with this for x amount of years and specifically deals with this type of like situation and someone from organization 2 who like you know does this kind of work and and everyone bringing everyone to the table everyone sharing their insight and their expertise and their you know whatever like how incredible would that be I think it would be a miracle if that happened but it would be >> yes >> it it would be awesome it would be amazing just think about how many children it could save and I do want to point out something like there are many advocacy groups and adv as a kid that I don't agree with all their methods. And the same goes for me. I'm not either perfect and I sometimes do things that I I need to apologize for or I need to learn about still cuz I don't I don't know everything. But I think the key difference is acting with integrity. And that I will always try to do.

[00:44:29]>> Yeah. And I think that's so like important. And thank you for saying that cuz I I I feel like we're kind of taking like that same expectation of like, you know, these like religious institutions like that they're so good and pure and perfect and putting that on advocacy groups or advocates and saying like I expect them to be like pure and great and perfect and like what you're saying is like no actually like part of acting like with integrity and like being an institution that has that can be trusted is the fact that that you can hold yourself accountable and like apologize when necessary and that's amazing and I think that that's so important like I think that institutions you know especially in advocacy spaces need to like lead by example and like model that and again especially for people who have been traumatized by institutions who have not done that. So yeah that just feels important. Yeah. And I actually thinking maybe that's another red flag.

[00:45:27]Not apologizing, doubling down. We're always right. We always know the best way to do things.

[00:45:36]>> Yes. And you were saying like, okay, what can people like how what can advocacy groups do like, you know, to not be that way? Like that's such an important one. Like maybe that's number one is like being able to acknowledge when something was done that was wrong and to apologize for that.

[00:45:53]>> I love that. I love how we came to that.

[00:45:56]>> Yes. I guess like I would just ask you like what is it like to go from being, you know, having gone through the the trauma of being abused and then going through the court system and everything you and then this experience with this with this particular advocate to now being in an advocacy role yourself? Like how has that been for you?

[00:46:17]>> It's hard. Like I said, I I do get triggered. You know, sometimes the work is really, really hard and I it takes me a day and I'm I'm sad and I am angry and it's hard, but it's also so rewarding. I feel like I'm putting purpose to the pain, you know? It's not for nothing. At least I'm I'm I'm doing something and trying to protect children and advocate and educate. So, it's meaningful, but it's hard.

[00:46:50]incredible that you're even able to do this. You know, I feel like you're like the rare like diamond in that was a like that's able to do this kind of work of having been in the like you know having been a part of like the system that hurt you to now be able to like bring that forward.

[00:47:11]>> It's very hard work you're doing.

[00:47:13]>> It's very hard. I get why people don't do it. I think that I'm not like special. I think I was born this way, you know. I think I was born with this strength.

[00:47:25]Not everyone is.

[00:47:27]>> Yeah. And I have like one one more question to like almost bring it full circle like if you could have because I know that this particular influencer did not respond to you, >> but I'm curious, you know, maybe she'll listen to this. Who knows? Like what like what would you want to say to her or what would you want her to know?

[00:47:47]That's a great question.

[00:47:50]That's a super question. I would want to ask again. I want to know why she did it. I'm very curious what transpired.

[00:47:58]What made her do it? Cuz I feel like there was a need for her there somewhere that she wanted to meet. Like you said, self- serving, if it was money, I don't know what it was, but there was a need for her. And I want to understand that need. I don't know if I could explain it to her because I I don't know if she'll understand.

[00:48:17]But I would just say like, you know, you really took my trust in a very vulnerable and powerless position. You betrayed me in such a deep way. You know, I I don't wish this on anyone.

[00:48:32]I hope you never do it to anyone else.

[00:48:34]>> Yeah, that feels like the highlight underscore of this, like that this shouldn't happen to anybody else.

[00:48:41]If I had to guess, I'm not the only one that something like this has happened to with in with this particular advocate just because it's usually not like that.

[00:48:52]Yeah, that's another reason for for me speaking up is because I never heard anything. People are afraid to say people are afraid to speak up for very rightful reasons. Very understandable.

[00:49:06]No one wants to be slammed with a lawsuit on top of everything else they're going through. or their reputation to go down or whatever.

[00:49:14]>> Yeah. Which is again like just it like mimics like the initial like trauma of like not wanting to speak out and like being afraid of you know being slammed with a lawsuit. Um you know >> it's it's like >> it's deep systemic issues. Yeah.

[00:49:34]>> Yeah. And so much of it is around silencing people who have been hurt.

[00:49:38]>> Exactly. Yeah, >> these are deeply rooted patterns that show up in in various ways and we have to speak up about it.

[00:49:46]>> Yeah. I'm just thinking I know we also talked about this in an earlier conversation, but now I'm thinking about something that we talked about here around, you know, like the unwillingness to be able to like hold that somebody who we perceive as good can also do things that are bad. Um, and I'm thinking about like again like like what has what happened with it's so interesting like how this is happening on like such a global scale for Jews around the world around like October 7th and specifically like the sexual abuse that was perpetrated and how it's so easy you know these these same people who don't believe you know you and maybe others will be so quick to 100% say like of course these terrorists s, you know, abuse these women and like and it's like horrifying that like the BBC or the New York Times or whoever it is like is denying that and like it's crazy and you know whatot. So, it's almost like it's not that they don't believe that that could happen at all. You know, it's that they can believe that people that they already perceive as monsters can do that, you know.

[00:50:57]>> Exactly. It's hard to to come to terms with the fact that someone from our community, someone respected, someone you know, whatever the case is, could do something like that. It is so much easier to think that like, oh yeah, of course I'm not supposed to do that.

[00:51:12]What message would you have for survivors who are, you know, maybe haven't even told anyone yet or are currently in the process of their own court, you know, um, experience or who are trying to reach out to advocacy groups and, you know, are looking for support. The first thing is I see you. I feel you.

[00:51:38]It's so tough out there. It is so tough.

[00:51:42]You feel like you're all alone.

[00:51:44]Essentially, you might be. And if it becomes too much, it's okay to stop.

[00:51:49]It's okay. Not everyone can can stand up. Like, if it comes at a cost of your mental health in a in a big way, it's not worth it. You know, I think that's that's my message. And for reaching out for to advocacy groups, I think look out for the red flags we spoke about. I want to know if you have a message.

[00:52:11]>> I mean, I definitely, you know, share similar sentiments, you know, that like we see you, we hear you, we believe you, >> we're with you.

[00:52:21]>> And that recovery has to come first, I think, because it's just like it's so much. And unfortunately, like, you know, we were saying like, you know, sexual abuse is soul crushing. add layers of institutional abuse and religious abuse like the it it's it's so much to recover from and like you were saying which I love like the the gentleness around like slowing down and pausing and you know pulling back fully if you need to like those are so important and like honoring your needs is so important especially when you you know survived situations where that that was not the case by others.

[00:53:05]And yeah, and I think it's just holding all of the pain around that.

[00:53:11]>> Yeah. While you were talking, I was thinking to add something. I'm worried that survivors are going to listen to this and feel that they didn't do enough or that maybe they should have done more or maybe they could still do more.

[00:53:24]Surviving is hard enough. Living with the pain every day is hard enough.

[00:53:29]Dealing with the issues as a result of your abuse is hard enough.

[00:53:34]And that is enough. That is enough. You don't owe anyone anything. Just yourself. And you don't have to do more than survive. Yeah. And also I would add that going against a system that is so stacked against you takes an inordinate amount of like strength and resources and like you first need to have the resources. So true that should be, you know, needs to be like first and foremost is like working on, you know, getting those resources, getting the support, whatever that looks like for you in terms of your own recovery process is so important. And also like you don't ever have to go against the system that's stacked against you. Um, but certainly I I would imagine like it's impossible to do without support.

[00:54:24]>> Yeah, I agree.

[00:54:26]Thank you so much for doing this with me, Ricky.

[00:54:29]>> My pleasure. Thank you for having me here.

[00:54:32]>> Yeah, I appreciate your willingness to do dirty dirty work and to be a witness for me and for all other victims. It's not easy. So, I appreciate it.

[00:54:47]>> Yeah, thank you. And again, like it's an honor to be trusted with something so delicate. So, thank you.

[00:54:53]>> I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

[00:54:55]Thank you for joining me on Silent No More. If today's conversation moved you, taught you something new, or gave you a moment to reflect, I hope you'll share it with someone else. Together, we can create a world that listens to survivors, protects children, and breaks the silence around abuse. If you are someone you know is a survivor and needs support. You can find resources in the episode description. To stay connected, follow along at Better Safe than Silent, and be sure to subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Until next time, stay informed, stay compassionate, and never be afraid to speak up.