A PREDATOR WILL OFTEN TELL YOU WHAT THEY ARE - MARK VICENTE

Added: 2026-05-27

[00:00:01]And it was a a story he pitched me. And this was so I I discovered this in 2019, but he pitched this to me back in 2008 or 2009.

[00:00:11]And it was a story about a guy who was very idealistic and who worked with this corporation. And the guy begins to realize something's not right in the corporation. And the guy's mentor is this is the sort of leader of the of the corporation. He's almost a Jesus-like character.

[00:00:29]And so this young kid uh says there's a there's a psychopath in the system and he's trying to figure it out. And the the twist in the story is that the leader, the Jesus Christ character, is actually the psychopath.

[00:00:44]So he pitched that to me 10 years before the trial. And when I found that document, I think in episode seven or eight or something in the vow, you see I'm a complete mess. And I'm a mess because I've just found it.

[00:00:59]And I'm just I'm just stunned. And I'm stunned because I'm like, it occurs to me that he may have been playing this game with me for that long, >> 10 years, >> that he literally showed me the story that I was involved in and I couldn't see I couldn't see the story. I couldn't see how the plot worked. He was literally showing me who he was.

[00:01:23]And that level of evil where you can [ __ ] with somebody for that long.

[00:01:42]Hi guys, welcome to this very special episode of Making Monsters. Here with Mr. Mark Vicente, director, filmmaker, producer, and Nexium whistleblower. If you've seen The Vow, which I have twice now, um you'll recognize him. Fascinating work. Um and he's currently got a show out called InstaGurus, which what we're going to talk about mostly today as well. And then we're going to get to a documentary that he's doing at the very end, which is again dear to my heart because it crossed paths with some of my own path and my own past here. Thank you for joining me, Mark, for giving me your time, mate.

[00:02:16]>> Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. We have a lot to talk about.

[00:02:19]>> We have a lot to talk about on air and off air. It's a very strange world. Um, people that I don't want to labor the past too much because people can go and see the vow. They can see everything so much. You're a Nixxian whistleblower.

[00:02:31]You were in it for a very long time yourself.

[00:02:33]>> Um, and you got out a number of years ago and people like this lady um Sarah Edmonson, I've got her book here.

[00:02:40]>> She came out with you. She got in there with you and there's a big story there.

[00:02:44]Maybe we'll cover that one day. But today I want to talk about the Bentinho Msaro Instaguru podcast. So I suppose I want to start with like someone like yourself has been through this coming out a couple of times now I believe in in sort of culty kind of situations.

[00:03:02]>> I've been in a few. Yeah.

[00:03:04]>> Yeah. Does it hurt to go over this stuff again? like like is it feel like you're kind of trying to like heal something still because there's an attraction to kind of help get involved. It's almost like the pull back into the >> topic itself is still there, isn't it?

[00:03:24]>> Man, it's a it's a big question. So, I think it is healing. Um, it doesn't feel traumatizing in the same way that my thing was traumatizing like like creating the vow which is the the show you mentioned. It's it's basically for the audience know it's like 16 episodes over two seasons on HBO. That was very traumatizing because we were in the middle of trauma while shooting everything. We didn't know whether he was going to go to jail or not and he was after us as well. So that was very traumatizing.

[00:03:57]I think what happened is when I came out and woke up, I was like, "How the [ __ ] did this happen?" Like, "What is wrong with me?" was one of my first questions.

[00:04:05]And then I try to was trying to figure out like what what is going on in this dynamic between people with severe pathologies and then people that get screwed over. And the one thing I understood is well, first of all, nobody ever trained me to spot these people.

[00:04:18]Now, what's funny is my cult leader Reneeri talked about psychopathy, talked about dark personalities.

[00:04:26]And so, because he talked about it, we thought, well, he can't be it because like he's talking about it, you know, it never occurred to us. Um, also, I think part of the obsession is because during the trial, we had a six-week trial, a big federal trial in in New York, he never admitted to anything. So, Reneer has never confessed.

[00:04:44]for those who want to understand is my is my former cult leader never confessed to anything. So in some way me going through the process of working with and helping other people. First I've walked the path. So I kind of know how it works and what's going to happen. And then also in terms of the film we'll talk about at the end Narcissist playbook.

[00:05:02]You know the reason I was so interested in talking to narcissists is because I never got any kind of confession of any kind from my cult leader. And so by proxy I was interviewing my cult leader because it's a very similar pathology.

[00:05:16]So, this is just an obsession at the moment. It's not going to last forever, but at the moment, uh, I am obsessed with trying to to document and show people the patterns of how all this works. It's my current obsession.

[00:05:30]>> It's um it's almost like cuz we were looking for the the the father figure to say to admit their wrongs. That type of feeling, isn't it?

[00:05:39]Um, I feel that that's something that I've gone through. I found myself in very culty situations many times. still do. Um and um there is a kind of father figure. I want you to admit that you're wrong, but these people aren't capable of doing that. So when did you kind of realize that someone like a Bentino Misaro, a Keith Reneer are not capable or won't allow themselves to admit what they've done. Like it's such a complex because you're not dealing with a human like us in terms of >> Yeah. grandio narcissist dark triad.

[00:06:17]>> So I don't know I I don't there's no way I could diagnose continuous sorrow because I just I just don't know. I I don't have a degree. I can't do that [ __ ] But what I'm seeing is the level of pride, impenetrable pride that seems to suggest that there is a deep insecurity underneath. And the reason I say that is because defectors have reported that whenever he gets challenged, he he sometimes will curl into a little ball like a baby and just cry and need to be consoled by all the women around him and they treat him like a little child. And I was thinking, okay, well, so if that's what's going on behind closed doors and then what you see is this tremendous impenetrable pride and confidence, then like that's all just a mask, you know?

[00:07:05]So, I began to realize that's probably what's going on with a lot of these people. Reeri was the same. I mean, listen, in documents, I don't remember if it came out in court or just in the indictment with Keith Reeri, our cult leader. You know, we thought of him as like, you know, one of the smartest people that's ever lived, yada yada yada, highest IQ ever scored, yakada yak. And then we're reading text messages between him and a a young woman that about her lover's penis size compared to his.

[00:07:35]Like this is the obsession of a school boy.

[00:07:38]>> Mhm.

[00:07:39]>> Like that was going on behind closed doors. And only in court filings did we start to see this stuff. And so what I'm seeing more and more if I take like Reeri and many other people and and maybe including Bentino Misaro is that there's a It's like a rested development.

[00:07:57]>> They're a little child in an adult's body, but they've never completely grown up and they've never resolved those teenage issues or maybe early childhood issues, but they've developed a massive following. And people, as you say, they want a figure that they can hold on to because that figure represents something.

[00:08:19]If in the case of Reneeri there is a person that's this good that means the world is savable. This is this is the way I used to think.

[00:08:28]And then the idea that it's all a lie is too much for the psyche to handle.

[00:08:34]That's why it takes people so long to wake up. And that's why people sometimes feel suicidal as they're pulling their their psyche apart realizing this person I believed in is full of [ __ ] It's a very very difficult pill to swallow.

[00:08:49]That's why it takes so long and that's why there are people like in the case of Nixium, there are still people loyal to him. The trial happened, I woke up in 2017, everything blew up that year. 2019 was the federal trial. A bunch of people went to prison. He's in prison for 120 years. And there are still people, it's now 2026, there are still people that believe that he is some kind of Christ and they're not letting go. You know, >> so you mentioned there what the world can the world needs saving or that you can believe that it can be saved. What what is this about people like maybe you and me and maybe the people that get into cults that believe the world needs saving? What does it need saving from?

[00:09:33]You know, here's my current answer.

[00:09:37]I think I'm a I'm a recovering utopianist. You know, I really believed in utopia. And I think the reason I believed in utopia or needed to believe in utopia is because you know I I certain things happened in my childhood that were very painful. I think my escape was imagining a perfect world where those things didn't exist. And then that turned into my passion, my obsession, my career so to speak. I have to make the world the perfect version of the world. And I would say things like because of humanity, because of this, because of that. But what if in the end it's because I feel so bad with just recognizing the world is is as it is full of awful and wonderful things and I just could never come to terms with that. Now that I have come to terms with I think I don't have the utopian impulse anymore. Like I still really would wish for things to be better and I still feel well great. I'd love to improve this that or the other. But I don't think I think utopia is a complete fantasy and it's a fantasy. It's kind of a spiritual bypassing fantasy of if only the world would be like that, then finally I would be okay. Then finally I would be safe.

[00:10:47]Then finally I could be guaranteed love.

[00:10:49]Then finally I wouldn't be abandoned, you know. So that's my current answer. I don't know. That's just me.

[00:10:55]>> No. No. And I think that's that's that makes total sense to me. But what occurs to me when you're saying that, and we'll move on to onto the Instagram in a minute because it'll all fold in, is that is that not a very similar issue that the narcissist or cult leader has as well?

[00:11:11]>> Yes, 100%. I think that it's funny when you when you you know the the thing that I learned recently. I just put an episode out of Instagur. I think it's episode 8 with this uh spiritual teacher Erin Abkkey and he talked about and then actually it was more Jacquine more Jacine. Jacquine talked about how she saw Bentinho a number of times become obsessed with a new woman.

[00:11:39]And I think what happens in that particular personality is they see somebody that they think is the answer the the final love that they need.

[00:11:48]And what they have is they have a picture in their mind of who that person should be and they fall in love with that picture and overlaid on this woman in front of them until she behaves like herself and it breaks the picture in their head and then they get ragefully angry and want to destroy them. That seems to be the case with cult leaders as well. I I I I did notice like in the case of Reeri for instance that like there were certain women that he seemed obsessed about.

[00:12:17]He would always say like he wants to help them. Later he goes, "No, no, he just wants to [ __ ] them, you know, but that was that was the word he used." I do think they fall in love with this picture in their mind and I do think that they get very very upset when reality is not like that and then they make up all kinds of mumbo jumbo like in the case of Bentino Misaro like if he doesn't get his way he's it's a demonic attack like if somebody doesn't give him what he wants it's part of a demonic structure that's attacking him and listen I'm open to the possibility they're demons but come on every single [ __ ] time you don't get your way it's a demon come on Yeah.

[00:12:52]>> Come on. You know.

[00:12:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a really interesting one. And something I I've been around as well, been in the conspiracy world, is that the demonic entity, stuff like that, I always found that kind of a bridge too far. And I'm not saying that they don't exist. I'm saying that that doesn't really solve anything in this world. I mean, where are we with that if we're going to go that, >> right? And also, why why why give it up to a demon? What if you're just making shitty choices and you're being a shitty human? Like why do you need a demon to explain your [ __ ] behavior?

[00:13:24]>> Exactly.

[00:13:25]>> Can I swear on this show, by the way?

[00:13:27]>> Absolutely. Yeah, of course you can.

[00:13:29]Yeah. Um well, the other show's called What the What the The [ __ ] Going On.

[00:13:33]Um so, let's go back to how you first found out about this um this young fell um Antonio >> Bentio.

[00:13:44]>> Antonio, sorry. Bentiosari. How did you first find him and what kind of rung bells in you thinking, hang on a minute, there's something not right here?

[00:13:52]>> Yeah, so this was a few years ago. I mean, this would have been 2021.

[00:13:56]I had just started making a film which is now about to come out called Narcissist Playbook. And so we put out um a request online for stories about narcissistic abuse, be it romantic, you know, family, corporation, church, politics, whatever.

[00:14:13]And a a lot of people reached out. Most of them were romantic stories. And then one person reached out. It was Jacine.

[00:14:18]She reached out to me to tell me a story about a cult-like situation, but she didn't name the cult leader. And then finally, we began talking great in more detail. And I began me and my team began basically shooting the defectors, documenting everything, and we realized that uh this wasn't going to fit inside this film. It would have to be a standalone series. So that's what we've been doing for years and years. So basically between Jacqueline and then I met Jaden Keelin, I started listening to their stories and sitting them down and interviewing them and I was like, "Well, first of all, this sounds exactly like what I just came out of." And they'd seen The Vow. In fact, the reason Jacine reached out to me is because she'd seen The Vow.

[00:15:00]And they all started to see it that the patterns identical. And so they would say to me sometimes, "This is what happened." Or or this is the public statement he just made. And I go, "That's the same [ __ ] we we had." So, it's pretty much standard. It's a it's a cookie cutter thing. And what I believe it all comes back to and the reason it's the same is is because I think it all comes back to the pathology of the leader. A leader with a certain kind of pathology does certain kind of strategies and creates certain kind of structures. So, that's why cults are pretty identical. Now, when I say identical, it's not doesn't mean it's, you know, everyone wears robes and everyone chants the same [ __ ] and the same incense. It can be educational cults. Uh, I mean, I found out about a cult in LA a few years ago, a roller a roller skating cult, a group of like girls that were like doing a roller derby stuff in in LA and and the the the dude was a cult leader and it was controlling all of them. So, it could be sports, it can be whatever, but the pattern is identical every single time.

[00:16:00]And then as I started to study, you know, bentinium more and more carefully and like the things that people were reporting, I was like, "Oh, this is like this is very, very similar." And that happened with me by the way as well because the thing one of the films that helped me there's a film called Holy Hell made by my friend Will Allen and and that is a fascinating film. And when I saw that film which my wife made me watch, thank God. I was like, "Holy [ __ ] this is like the same [ __ ] This is the same. This is the same." Okay, so that leader was a gay dude who used to do gay porn and he was screwing all the boys. Ours was different, but in the end it's the same, you know? And that's what I'm obsessed with is having people understand the pattern. And I was seeing the pattern. And then what was happening is as I was documenting Jay Jaffin and Keelin and then many others. I I I went to the Netherlands numerous times. I've met like many many people that have left Bentino's group.

[00:16:52]Um I found myself they would ask me questions and I found myself telling them what we experienced and what we were going through which helped them.

[00:17:01]So at certain times I've sort of inserted myself in because and we've just we've sometimes shot scenes where they're asking me questions and I'm trying to explain what we went through and what I think is going to happen. And unfortunately every time I say what I think is going to happen is usually true. There's a there's a way like if if you know if they do a public announcement then what happens is the cult comes back with some written statement. I mean I've I've put an an I've put word out to Bentinho. I'd love to chat. I've been trying to talk to him for years. I mean, I went to the to the monastery in Bosam just south of Amsterdam where they were and I waited a long time to finally find someone to talk to and I spoke into spoke to his second in command and I've been trying for years to have a conversation with Bentinho.

[00:17:45]But you know, I don't think I'm uh enlightened enough for the conversation.

[00:17:50]Uh because they keep telling me that I'm biased. And then when I have a conversation about there is no such thing as objectivity, they want me to be non-biased. And then I would say, "You want me to say what you want to say, which is subjective."

[00:18:03]So, it's like a mind game, you know.

[00:18:06]>> Um but I'm still trying. I'm still open to it. I'm still open to a conversation with Bentin if he wants to have it. And listen, I was very very open to to it not being what I thought it was uh four years ago. And I've the amount of emails that I have, but like I'm at the point now I'm like, "Okay, you know what? I think you're just hurting people and it's got to stop now. Now we need to start like talking about what you're doing to people cuz like it's not good."

[00:18:29]>> Yep. And what what I find is what you mentioned there is that there's a thing in in the cabala and I'm sure you know these these sort of things called a calipotic shell and they kind of surround themselves with this shell of decency of good people of genuine people that they've hoovered in. Um and you can't penetrate that because these genuine people are still genuinely holding on to that. And there's a certain point where that that shell does crack and start to crack very very >> drastically. Was there a point in let's go back to the Nexium days where Keith saw the cracks and the people like yourself who've been there a long time started to see that for one of a better term Kelly shell c disintegrate. What happens when that guru that cult leader starts to see the world fall around them? because I'm that must be terrifying for them.

[00:19:25]>> I mean in the case of Reneeri I think there was the the paranoia got very heightened and my perception is that he began to get more and more deranged.

[00:19:35]>> I mean when he was finally caught by the Mexican authorities he was in a villa with a number of women all my female friends and they were about to give him do a ceremony which was a group [ __ ] How you get from ceremony a how you get from a a recommmitment ceremony to a group [ __ ] still mystifies me >> does >> because like the the why don't you just honestly say like I need suckling I'm a little baby I need you to to to to you know take care of my pee pee so I feel better but it's this whole thing of like a recommmitment ceremony so >> it's it's not a great sales pitch to be fair is it >> it's not a great sales pitch but you know listen bless their souls they believed him I mean That was a that was a deranged day because what happened is the the the the police came in. I mean they they were loaded with semi-automatic weapons.

[00:20:25]>> Reeri hid in a closet.

[00:20:28]>> Uh basically became a terrified little child and then once they put him in the police car and they drove away at high speed.

[00:20:35]Uh some of the women got in a car and and chased after the police with body armor and submachine guns.

[00:20:47]They >> Sorry, the the women had body armor on and submachine guns as well.

[00:20:51]>> No, no, no. The police The police The police did. The police did, but the women chased after >> armed men to rescue the cult leader. That's That's pretty That's batshit.

[00:21:03]>> Yeah, >> it was a great day. It was a great day.

[00:21:06]>> And you see that in the vow as well. And also you see what's happening afterwards is that there's still young people. I don't know if it's happening now, but in the vow it was still happening standing outside his cell like like outside in the street >> whilst he flashed I think it was um a torch light or something at them like is that still happening today?

[00:21:26]>> No, because now he's at a high security facility in Arizona so they can't get to him anymore and um he's not allowed to talk to them. I mean he can still talk to his lawyers that can talk to them. Um he's not fairing well in prison. I think he's pissed off a lot of the inmates and they're not happy with him. Uh but that's another story. But yeah, there there but to this day there's still a level of loyalty. I mean, listen, >> I have not fully told the story of what happened in Mexico. There's a lot of people in Mexico that are still loyal to him that hate myself and the other whistleblowers, refuse to talk to us, people that were once our very dear friends.

[00:22:04]Uh but yeah, there's I would say there's probably maybe 15 to 20 people that are still loyal and this is now almost a decade later.

[00:22:17]>> So when I was talking about the kind of explosion, the collapse of the narcissist there. So the reason why I brought it up is because if if you're seeing these things come out and I think this is a fair few years this sort of stuff about Bentin's come out now.

[00:22:30]>> Do you see any cracks in that kind of thing coming out? because there's going to be a like from what we know as you say it's cookie cutter there'll be a moment where he does go even more mental than some of the stuff that he's gone I mean he thinks he's got a magical penis so we're quite pretty far down you know down the rabbit hole there but um >> you know have you seen any signs of this ending >> um I'm seeing people more on the outskirts waking up the inner circle I don't I don't think so because they're they're getting tighter and tighter. But also what's going to happen as they get tighter and tighter is probably they're going to get more and more abused. So what it's going to take for somebody in the inner circle to wake up like at this point maybe it's a miracle but the amount of people that are reaching out we're in episode 8 now of instigur. The amount of people that are reaching out you know via social media or email just thanking everybody for speaking out it's pretty extraordinary. There's a lot of people that are waking up, a lot of people are going, "Holy [ __ ] that's what happened." There's also people that have been abused that are starting to to come and talk to us. So, there's a lot more people that I'm going to talk to.

[00:23:39]So, certainly in the outer edges, I'm seeing cracks. I don't have a lot of information about the inner circle. I do know that they've been panicking.

[00:23:51]I know that they've been moving around a lot. Um, but I the the sense I get is that they're kind of tripling down. And I imagine given what I've heard about Bentinu's behavior in the past, he's probably getting more and more afraid uh and more and more childlike and probably more, you know, irrational. But again, I I don't know his mind exactly.

[00:24:14]I'm just going based on the stories I've heard of how he's behaved in the past, you know.

[00:24:18]So as this happens and someone who came was in Nexium and woke up in that, what do you think that these people are going to go through in terms of reassessing things that happen? I mean, you're in there for a long time, Nexium, so >> like everything changes when the tint is. It's like changing the color gradient. It's everything in that that happened within those years has a different look and a feel and it means something different. How did you deal with that looking back and I'm sure you're still doing it today of you know what I thought that meant that then but now it means something completely different than the the world goes tilts.

[00:24:53]>> Yeah. Yeah. So I mean for me it was a very difficult there there was one particular day where it it sunk in in a way.

[00:25:01]It was almost like I crossed a bridge I couldn't come back from where I realized like he was a liar and that everything that I had stood for was backwards and upside down.

[00:25:14]That was a very bad day because that was the day I started feeling like I had all this suicidal ideiation. It was like something cracked inside of me because the structure that you're holding on to like your psyche kind of cracks. Now, I could imagine most people just go like, I don't I can't go there. And so, they just have to block out any information, any data whatsoever. In my case, I just said, well, [ __ ] it. Let's see where this goes. And what I discovered was that it was like the like Stranger Things, like I I've described it this way, like I woke up on the upside down, and I thought that was the right way up.

[00:25:48]Um, and I looked looked back suddenly, I was like, what the [ __ ] has just happened?

[00:25:53]It's a very very very difficult thing to go through and and the people that go through it's I heard somewhere that 30% go back once they have that awakening 30% go back. I think a large percentage of people just uh try and avoid it alto together and then some people just go like I got to deal with it and and for myself and many of us that came out of Nixxium was just I got to deal with it.

[00:26:15]In the case of Jay Jaclyn and Keelin and many others I've spoken to they're dealing with it. Um, but it's it hurts something inside of you because you've you believed that the thing you were involved in, you believed that its morality matched your morality and and your values. And when you find out that what you've been part of is probably 180 degrees opposite to your values, it actually hurts your values. It feels like it hurts your values. It feels like it hurts your morality. It feels like a moral injury. You know, like I remember that uh one of the producers on the vow said to me one day, I had a particularly bad day uh and and and he said to me, "Do you know what moral injury is?" I said, "I don't, but I think I have it. What the [ __ ] is it?" And he explained, "Well, moral injury is like what happens when soldiers go to war. They do things and they they get back and realize like that thing I did was was immoral or was not the reason I was told I was doing it."

[00:27:15]You know, >> now I didn't wipe out a innocent villagers, but like it certainly felt like, you know, I supported a system that was in the end really, really evil.

[00:27:24]It's a very difficult thing to deal with, especially if you're an idealist like I was. I still am to some degree. And many people who join cults are idealists. So, they have a value system that's precious to them.

[00:27:39]And it literally hurts your value system. There was a movie, I don't remember what it was called now, it was about exposing stuff in the Catholic Church.

[00:27:47]And the and I remember the character said something like discovering that the priests were doing terrible things to children. And I remember the character said something like it's broken something inside of me.

[00:27:57]It's broken goodness.

[00:28:00]>> And I was like, "Oh my god, I can relate to that." Because it did for a while. It broke goodness. you know, everything you you you've stood for, everything you cared about. The reason you joined the organization, you suddenly realize that like what you thought you were doing, you're not doing. And the leader's diddling everybody and creating a co coercive situation so that the leader can have sex with people and you thought somehow it was okay and then you realized, what the [ __ ] Nothing was okay about that, you know? But again, it's about the structure that that you're that you're caught in. But I guess in the end the answer is it's very hard. It's a very very very big wakeup call and it and it tends to break people's psyches and uh it takes a while to recover.

[00:28:47]>> Yeah. I think that's really important the people that are watching this and and looking into these things as my audience do especially conspiracy theories and and and into true crime and cults that it takes time afterwards and you're very vulnerable during that time.

[00:29:01]That's why I think maybe people find themselves cult hopping from one to the to the next because it's very easy to get caught up in the next one and they look for people, don't they? That they are predators, these individuals. There was something in the vow I really wanted to talk to you about. Um and um sorry if it seems like we're jumping all over the place. I'm trying to build a picture.

[00:29:20]>> Oh no, it's all related.

[00:29:22]>> What's going on? And it is all related.

[00:29:24]There was a point where Keith had told you very early on, read out a pitch for a film to you and you realized that it was about you or it seemed to be about you. Can we talk through that because I think that's really important because I've noticed these types of individuals do this to test.

[00:29:43]>> Yeah.

[00:29:44]>> To see where you are.

[00:29:46]>> Yeah. So, what happened is that this was this was right before the trial and I was I remember I was in Brooklyn and I the FBI said to me, you know, have you got anything like blah blah blah.

[00:29:59]They just asked me, "Do you have anything uh any of this documentation or that documentation?" I remember going through my I I went through my hard drives again and again and again just to to to look for things to be able to hand off to the Department of Justice. And then I found this letter, this one page, and I realized, oh, this must have been something he told me that I transcribed.

[00:30:20]And it was a a story he pitched me. And this was so I I discovered this in 2019, but he pitched this to me back in 2008 or 2009.

[00:30:30]And it was a story about a guy who was very idealistic and who worked with this corporation. And the guy begins to realize something's not right in the corporation. And the guy's mentor is this is the sort of leader of the of the corporation. He's almost a Jesus-like character. And so this young kid uh says there's a there's a psychopath in the system and he's trying to figure it out. And the the twist in the story is that the leader, the Jesus Christ character, is actually the psychopath.

[00:31:03]So he pitched that to me 10 years before the trial. And when I found that document, I think in episode seven or eight or something in the vow, you see, I'm a complete mess. And I'm a mess because I've just found it.

[00:31:18]And I'm just I'm just stunned. And I'm stunned because I'm like, it occurs to me that he may have been playing this game with me for that long, >> 10 years, >> that he literally showed me the story that I was involved in. And I couldn't see I couldn't see the story. I couldn't see how the plot worked. He was literally showing me who he was.

[00:31:42]And that level of evil where you can [ __ ] with somebody for that long with somebody who's idealistic.

[00:31:50]Um it's extraordinary. And I will tell you there's another project that that he and I worked on called Carbon Crimes.

[00:31:57]And he had me create a character. Uh this is all about climate change. He had me create a character um and we'd even cast it. And it's it's a well-known actress, you know, who was in the in the cult.

[00:32:09]And basically, he says the character is somebody that believes in goodness and when she finds out her boss is evil, it breaks goodness for her forever.

[00:32:18]So these were the kinds of things that he was pitching me as as ideas and characters and plots.

[00:32:24]I imagine knowing full well what this would do to me if I ever found out the truth. And that was, I think, kind of delicious to him.

[00:32:32]>> Like a delicious practical joke. The reason I was so [ __ ] up from that is because it's a level of evil that's just, you know, you can you can imagine doing something impulsive and hurting somebody impulsively, even even a revenge.

[00:32:53]But the idea that you do it over decades to torture somebody, to break them down, to want to see the moment where they completely fall apart and they no longer have access to their own goodness or their own idealism because you break it.

[00:33:09]That's dark tetrat [ __ ] >> It it there's hard to find words to think that that's going on a daily basis. Remember guys, over a 10 year period of someone you're speaking to on a daily basis, you're consistently reiterating that. And I think part of that, it's felt like a test at the start. So, I'm just wondering if people that if you've seen this come up with like the um the other cults you've looked into this um the one uh the InstaGuru one, is it something that you've kind of noticed elsewhere or something that we could pick up? Because I'm all about I want people to realize that look at the signs. Are they testing you to think to see if you're cottoning on? I've been called like lately there's been things the word naive has been thrown around quite a lot and um >> okay >> I'm watching this go on knowing full well what's going on but um I just wonder if there's signs of them proddding and pushing to see if you if you're one >> the type who would fall for it on two >> whether you are up on it or not. Yeah, I mean there are certain things and actually some of them are in are in the instiguru series. You know there's there's times when Bentinu admits to torturing animals for instance >> that I thought was very interesting and he's admitted it to a lot of people.

[00:34:27]Well when I say a lot at least six that I know of maybe more public you know maybe more publicly I'm not sure. Um, there's also there was this really interesting admission that I think he made to Jade where he talked about his fantasy of wanting just empty women that would do his bidding, like soulless empty robots.

[00:34:47]And then I think he said to her something like, "That sounds pretty terrible, doesn't it?" And I and and she describes this moment of like not knowing what to do with it. And I think some of these leaders do do this. They drop little things because they want to see maybe like who's in the club with me.

[00:35:03]>> Yeah.

[00:35:03]>> Cuz you imagine for instance, and I don't I don't know what um Bentinia's diagnosis is, but imagine, you know, you're you're a psychopath and you have unlimited degrees of freedom of whatever you can do, but you know, like it's just you and then you you you want to see is there anybody else like me? I'm I'm about to describe what government is, by the way. Is there anybody else like me? And then you find out that there are because you go to a party, you know, and you push the boundaries or you like you you you offer them something. Maybe you you you honeypot them with some underage girl or something and they go for it and you go like, "Oh, they're like me." And maybe there's a kind of weird communion in in these people. And so, yeah, maybe they're testing people to see, are they alone? You know, is it just them? Are there other people that they can actually have real conversations with?

[00:35:50]because all these naive people are boring.

[00:35:53]>> You know, I'm I realized later like Reeri and I would have a we spoke a lot, but like I would often go back to morality and I remember one day he said to sort of explain to me that morality was a was a limitation, you know, that there's something beyond morality. And I would say things like, I don't know, morality has kind of driven my entire life. I think it's kind of important. It's part of like who I am.

[00:36:15]It's my whole reason for everything. But he was testing me and I failed, you know. I I failed miserably because I was I was such a [ __ ] boy scout basically. So maybe you and I if if naive has been used uh against you, maybe you and I are in the same boat.

[00:36:30]But I will say when people say that [ __ ] and this is the problem with good people. When people say that [ __ ] listen to what they're saying.

[00:36:41]Don't whitewash it to make it comfortable for you just because you wouldn't say it.

[00:36:47]Don't try to change what they said into like, well, they didn't mean that. And I did that in Nixium.

[00:36:53]They didn't. That's not what he meant.

[00:36:55]And then later I was like, no, that's exactly what he meant. That's exactly what he meant. He knew he could say X, Y, and Z. Horrible thing. And most of the room would just go into a state of denial that that's the case. It's the same like if you if you say to people your ex your government leader ex whoever that is is an evil person, they just can't they can't go there. Even if there there's stuff in the press about the evil [ __ ] they've done, they just can't go there. And I imagine if all these some of these psychopaths work together, they must find this delicious.

[00:37:30]They can they can do and say whatever they want and all the good people are like, "No, that's not what's going on."

[00:37:36]And they just laugh behind closed doors.

[00:37:40]>> Yeah, they do. One of the things I was uh told over the years um I actually was asked by someone, do you have psychopathic thoughts ever?

[00:37:50]>> It was a hypo It wasn't really hypothetical question obviously it was a checking. I mean imagine asking someone that and I my answer was well we all do we just don't act on it.

[00:38:00]>> Um but that wasn't really the question was it?

[00:38:04]>> That's interesting. That's interesting.

[00:38:05]Yeah.

[00:38:07]Yeah. And that's, you know, it's interesting as well because in the case of Nixxium, there was so many discussions going on of a philosophical nature. There was one intensive. It was an 8-day intensive called civilization.

[00:38:18]And I remember the intensive was all about the worst of humanity.

[00:38:23]And so we were discussing torture and a whole bunch of different things. And I remember like pretty much everybody was horrified. And in retrospect now, I remember looking back thinking not everybody was horrified.

[00:38:34]You know, it's like it's like if you run a test, if you show somebody a terrible video and they're horrified, you know what kind of person they are. But but but if you're a psychopath, you're interested in the person that's sitting there studying the video with interest and detachment.

[00:38:50]>> Yes.

[00:38:51]>> Cuz that's a potential ally, you know.

[00:38:54]But also, as you just mentioned earlier, 10 years of working with this man, that is torturing someone that that is a they are sitting there watching you be tortured. They know what they're doing.

[00:39:05]So, you were tortured for 10 years.

[00:39:08]>> Yeah. Yeah. Also, something I learned from somebody um who was in the inner circle, she explained to me one day that her psychologist because she couldn't understand why she was so [ __ ] up.

[00:39:20]Now, she was with him for over 25 years.

[00:39:23]And the psychologist said something interesting. They talked about mind mapping. Like anytime you're with somebody, the interactions you have, you're mapping them, right?

[00:39:33]>> You're trying to see like what is the rules of this encounter.

[00:39:37]So when you're mapping healthy people that respond similarly to you, that's one kind of thing. But if you're mapping somebody insane, it means you have to to some degree map and mirror their insanity. And that starts to get into you and it starts to mess with you. And I realize with all of us, we were mapping insanity in the case of Reeri. And I think in the case of the people that are in Bentino's organization and others, I think the reason they're so um damaged at this point is they've mapped a kind of insanity um that is not good for them. But they're trying to, you know, what can I do to make him happy? what will make him unhappy? I shouldn't do that thing. But what if the thing that will make him unhappy is something that serves yourself and your higher aspirations?

[00:40:29]Then you have to suppress it. And what if making him happy is doing something that you would never normally do? Now you're starting to [ __ ] with your morality and break your moral compass.

[00:40:38]So mapping insanity starts to make you insane. Does that make sense?

[00:40:42]>> That makes total sense. Like Heath Ledger playing the Joker, he had to take night stuff to sleep at night. he became and I think um Jack um was the guy who played the guy from the shining um he had the same thing Jack Nixon it's when you start to play these characters as someone who works in the film industry yourself you can see that these people are very much like that they take on this kind of thing but to map someone's insanity and you you mentioned a term they're mirroring which I find really really interesting so they start to mirror you to get you in love bomb you pretend to be your best friend and I like the things you like and there's nothing there so they're playing a character the costume. They're putting you on for a little while and then they bring you in and then you start to mirror them.

[00:41:24]>> It's so like a virus, isn't it?

[00:41:27]>> It's extraordinary. That's the part I hadn't understood is that they create mini me, you know, and this is something Richard Granon and I have spoken about a lot. You know, the whole mini me thing like you become a little a miniature version of the cult leader because you have to alter your behavior to to to stop the punishment and to get the praise. M >> and you never know if it's going to happen or not because sometimes they praise you for something the next day they they they insult you for the thing they praised you for the day before.

[00:41:53]But you it's sort of like in some ways you mentioned the thing of a big daddy.

[00:41:59]It's sort of like kids modeling their parents, you know, to get their parents love.

[00:42:04]There's a little bit of that that goes on. You're fawning in a certain way.

[00:42:08]you're you've been punished and and maybe what they they they've done is that they you did something and they basically in front of like in in the case of me in one organization in front of a thousand people I got [ __ ] for something I did.

[00:42:20]That's great training to never do that thing again.

[00:42:23]>> Yeah.

[00:42:24]>> Because a thousand eyes were on me for the thing I did and there's a there's a corrective mechanism there. You know, public shaming is very very interesting.

[00:42:34]That's why it's used so much. I remember >> modify your behavior.

[00:42:38]>> I now you bring that up and I've never thought about this before. I was a very ill child. Um I was born without an esophagus. I had to have an esophagus built for me and you know all of this stuff. But when I went back to school after they did the operation second time.

[00:42:51]>> So I would have been eight nine nine maybe. Yeah. Um they stood me up in front of the class and said so this is 300 people in a hall said to me Richard's just come back out of hospital Great Orman Street which is the big child's hospital here please don't knock him over or hurt him because he's very vulnerable at the moment and even at nine I was looking around going that's not [ __ ] helpful that and now you've mentioned that I'm like that's and then I know it was done from the best interest that wasn't done that wasn't done in that way you got talking about 1980 9 this wasn't you know we didn't know what they did now >> but I think I carry that stuff I think you carry that stuff it's very similar public shaming but it was like you are vulnerable the program goes in there >> then you become >> vulnerable >> yeah it's a good point you know I I find a lot of this I find like evolutionary biology so interesting and the reason I'm so interested in all these things is I'm always not so much Now, maybe still, I'm not sure. But I was always trying to answer the question, how did I not see it? How did I fall for it? Cuz people would say to me like, "You're a smart guy." And I go, "Apparently not." They go, "No, no, no. You're objectively pretty smart." I go, "Okay, maybe a little." They go, "Well, okay, so how did you not see it?" And I would say, "It's not about smarts."

[00:44:15]And that's I started to like study, you know, what happened to prisoners of war, you know, in in Korea and like brainwashing and everything because I realized like it doesn't matter how smart you are. In fact, some of the smartest people I know are so [ __ ] brainwashed to this day. Um, and I think it has a lot to do with disconnection from self.

[00:44:34]>> Mhm. But I've always been trying to understand like what is this impulse that I had in you know in in in many of the religions I was involved in as a child and then different organizations to deify somebody to to feel awe over somebody and then to feel a sense of completion in the awe I have and I was looking at a rock concert the other day there's this um there's this uh singer uh musician her name is I think Sophia Asella and she goes down into the pit and there's all these teenage girls there and they're crying and they're weeping. It's like they've seen God and it's this it's this young girl who's singing and I was looking that that right there that is so interesting that adoration that you know me >> you your lyrics you know me better than every anybody knows me and this worship of a rock star cuz people say like oh that's only cults. I'm like I don't know go to a rock concert it's pretty [ __ ] culty.

[00:45:37]>> Oh yeah. And those biological impulses are going on which are which are the fabric of everything. And you know somebody Richard and somebody else said something to me recently that really helped me and they said we are a a cult desiring species. And I was like that's so interesting. Like it's a natural thing to want that bonding to want those things. And I imagine uh who was I talking to that Richard Granon always talks to? Professor Oh, Dutton, you know, uh, we were talking a bit about, you know, the reason that you you you wanted a psychopath running things is because you would be safe.

[00:46:18]So, you would have this adoration and respect the baddest baddest man in the tribe.

[00:46:24]Some woman would be like, "That's the [ __ ] need that I'm going to have children with because I will be protected and my children will be protected." You know, and it seems and people get all up in arms and say, "That's terrible. That's disgusting.

[00:46:35]That's misogynistic." Okay, [ __ ] all that [ __ ] Just get back to biology.

[00:46:39]That makes sense.

[00:46:41]If you can be killed at any moment, you want the baddest [ __ ] in charge of the tribe. And so, like, I don't know. Has that carried over in some ways? It explains why people want to elect morons who are very very certain of themselves. You know, I don't want to get into a whole thing about politicians, but there are politicians that are some of them are very grandiose. Some of them are more covert, but they seem to have an unshakable confidence.

[00:47:10]They're morons.

[00:47:12]They're idiots. Their their their ideas are stupid, but they're so sure of them.

[00:47:17]And I just watch millions of people just go, "That's the one. He's the one." Or, "She's the one." Maybe it's that same impulse, you know.

[00:47:26]>> Well, it is. I mean, I've just written a book called I am immortal or global death cult for immortality. And that is basically what it's about. They want immortality. They want all of these things. Um, and it is to do with basically you take those type of people and you bung a messianic religious ideology on it and then you're off to the races with all of that stuff.

[00:47:44]>> Um, and that's basically what we're seeing happening around the world now with the temple in Israel and all of this stuff. That's a different I mean that's a fascinating I'd love to have that conversation with you by the way.

[00:47:53]Um, but what you mentioned there was like why didn't you see it? I don't know. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's like I I I do see it. I see it straight away, but they undermine my um ability, not ability, my confidence to say, "You're a [ __ ] idiot." That's what they did. I It's not that I didn't I don't see it. It's that I see it, but I start to question what I see.

[00:48:18]>> That makes sense. Yeah, I like what you said there. I like what you said. I mean, there's two the two things I think about. The one is you're alone if you speak up.

[00:48:26]>> And who wants that?

[00:48:28]Um, and the other thing is that one of the first things they do is they debilitate your radar. They they try and take your radar offline. Like one of the things I find so interesting in the Bentinia organization is that normal human impulses and and responses to bad things are reframed as weakness. Yes.

[00:48:47]>> Or reframed as a demonic attack.

[00:48:52]So you would normally have a problem with somebody treating you a certain way, but that's part of your problem.

[00:48:58]And and the same thing happened in >> Nixium.

[00:49:00]>> Like if any of us had resistance, I had a lot of resistance about a lot of things. And I was told it's my pride.

[00:49:06]Everything's my pride or it's my suppressive impulse. And so being the [ __ ] boy scout that I was, I was like, well, I got to address my pride then. I got to address this. I got to address that. When I got out, I was like, "Oh, that was just my normal.

[00:49:20]That's just me being me. I'm I'm a I'm a director. That's [ __ ] me being me, you know? Like I I never try and hurt anybody, but like you can't run a film set and be a small personality.

[00:49:32]You you know, you got to lead."

[00:49:34]>> Yeah.

[00:49:34]>> And it was really interesting to me to see how they took your gut instinct offline. So anyway, those are the two things I was just thinking about as soon as you said that because you said you saw >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. saw it and I see it all the time everywhere. I just you get so one you get dependent which is the the other one they know that your weaknesses so you become dependent on them um for certain things. Um what you said there though was fascinating because they've got you in because of your talents and your skills. You were a well-known filmmaker before you went into Nexim. So they brought you in for your talents and your skills. They scouted you if I believe rightly. They actually scouted you years and you found out a while later that they actually were watching you and scouting you. Now, I think this goes on over all I've just done a um a video um about the X-P prize. Now, the X-P prize to me is a scouting like this just my view, a scouting >> funnel for talent who are vulnerable, who really want to make decent changes in the world. And that's a lot of I see go on around the world, >> especially in the Caribbean islands, by the way. Um it's uh it's a lot of that stuff. um this scouting for talent around the world dressed up as prizes as grants and then they get sucked into certain ways and I see this cult like global behavior of taking advantage of people that come from like backgrounds with not much money, not much um but they have a wealth of talent. Now the reason I'll come back to that is that they scouted you years before they took you in and then they took your talents >> and used them one against you but for their own Mavelian horrific ideals.

[00:51:17]>> Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. It was a shock to me to find out. I mean, I found out in 2017, one of the there was a a group of women called the Nixium 9 that left years earlier.

[00:51:28]And one of them, Susan Don, said like, she says, "I sat in the meetings where we talked about you. I sat in the meetings where we found radio interviews, TV interviews, things that had been written about you, things that you'd written, and we mapped you out and we figured out what do you want more than anything in the world, and we and we decided we're going to give try and give it to you, offer it to you.

[00:51:51]>> That makes that makes me angry because that is that's not even targeting.

[00:51:55]That's that's the prequel before the film.

[00:51:58]>> Oh, yeah. But it's also it's the same process that intelligence uses in getting assets, you know. It's the it's the same process, you know. Um I just I couldn't see it. Like my my dad was a spy and he taught me a few things and I remember recruiting attempts being made on me a number of times which I turned down every single time because I could see what they were.

[00:52:19]>> And also my dad said to me, "Once you get in intelligence, you never get out."

[00:52:22]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:23]>> You know, and I know there's all these whistleblowers saying like, "Oh, I used to be with the CIA." I'm like, ah, >> think you probably still are. Yeah.

[00:52:30]>> I've interviewed a few of them myself.

[00:52:32]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I couldn't see it with this because what they did with all the intelligence attempts, they they used the wrong bait.

[00:52:44]Um, they used money as a bait, they used sex as a bait, they used uh reputation as a bait. None of those things worked on me. M >> Nixxium used my greatest dreams and aspirations was to change the world through movies.

[00:52:58]That was the thing I wanted more than any of the other things that intelligence offered me. So that bait worked.

[00:53:05]They just the the intelligence agencies didn't understand what made me tick.

[00:53:10]Nixim did. That's that was the the tragedy of it.

[00:53:15]What's fascinating and and a testament to yourself, Mark, is that you've gone through all of that and you've still come out with the same goal, the same drive, the same thing.

[00:53:27]You've just used it. So, in a way, they've actually just like, and they haven't done this on purpose because they're [ __ ] and idiots, but you've taken that and gone, I'm still going with this, but now I've just slightly directed it. So, you got to give yourself some credit there that look actually what all you've really done is you've given me the you've given me some [ __ ] great material for the next 20 years.

[00:53:48]>> You have. That's true. They have. And also, they've given me fire and fuel.

[00:53:52]Like I I don't know if this is true. I don't know about how swords work. I love swords, but I don't know how how to make them.

[00:53:57]>> But they talk about folding steel.

[00:53:59]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:00]>> It feels a little bit like they folded a lot of steel cuz now I'm a determined [ __ ] >> Yeah. Like I and I don't mean this as a threat, but like if I have my eye on something, I I feel sorry for the person at the other end because I am [ __ ] I am determined.

[00:54:19]>> Well, let's talk about that now. Yeah.

[00:54:21]>> Yeah. I mean, I have the two things you've got going on now are >> Yeah.

[00:54:25]>> born from that, aren't they?

[00:54:27]>> They're they're very close together. I mean, so the one thing is Narcissist playbook, which is what led me to instigur, but narcissist playbook is basically came out of, you know, when my wife was beginning to, my wife was the one, those of you who watch the vow, you'll see my wife is the one that helps wake me up.

[00:54:40]There's a lot of stuff that's not in there, but she put in front of me articles and explained things about narcissism and spiritual narcissism and made me watch movies and she had a cult exit counselor that was telling her what to do with me.

[00:54:52]And um I think it was around 2019 after the trial I was so interested in understanding narcissism because I was trying to understand what happened to me and how did I not see that the leader had a pathology and she said to me you should make a movie about narcissism.

[00:55:07]So, uh, 2020 we were doing a lot of prep and then 2021 we started shooting. And what's cool about the film, you know, we interview obviously victims, we interview, um, clinicians, neuroscientists, psychologist, you know, the whole the whole thing, but then we interview four self-confessed narcissists.

[00:55:25]And that to me was very important because one of the things I saw with many people around me when I tried to explain who these people are that run these organizations or do these things.

[00:55:35]There was a lot of polyiana behavior of like no that's all these people can just be loved back into health and yada yada.

[00:55:41]They're all just wounded children. I'm like they're not [ __ ] wounded children. If there's a child there died a long time ago. The the [ __ ] inner child is dead. So, I wanted to talk to self-confessed narcissists, you know, uh, some of who are quite extreme, and they talk about what they think of ordinary people, and they talk about how they enjoy hurting people. And it's a very shocking film in some ways. And what's interesting and cool about the film is it takes the audience through the experience of of kind of being fooled and, you know, messed messed around with, which I think is very very important because it does answer the question of how do you not see it?

[00:56:17]because and this I don't want to give anything away but in the structure of the film is the is the experience of going through like oh I didn't see it oh [ __ ] I didn't see it you know it's it's a bit of a six sense kind of film um so I'm very very proud of it so that's you know that's coming out I mean the the release is in July which you know we've entirely privately funded so we don't have a studio behind us we don't have a streamer behind us we've been turned down by 26 film festivals Hollywood does not like this film they are not on board um so We're literally uh funded by survivors which is amazing. So you know please your audience if you want to help us you know donate towards the project I can give you the links um you know we're needing it for marketing and advertising and outreach and also putting it in theaters ourselves. So that's, you know, that project which just we're coming to the tail end now of production and now we're, you know, post-production's like days away and then it's going out in the world. And then Instaguru is this long-term project that I've been shooting for 5 years. Um, I've I've doc the amount of stuff I've documented is insane. I mean, I I can't even imagine how much material I have, but it's hard drives and hard drives. But what I thought I would do uh and I spoke to, you know, the three amigos, um Jay, Jacqueline, and Keelin, is we spoke about this and said, "Look, there's a bunch of stuff that's coming out.

[00:57:36]There's a book coming out and and I've been working with a journalist to put the book out. Eva Fanver >> wrote a book calledu um which is now out in the Netherlands.

[00:57:47]Uh there's another project that's been made in the Netherlands and we thought why don't we just get get a podcast started uh while we continue shooting because that also will be very good for meeting a bunch of people that will now start coming out as news breaks more and more. So there's a lot of very cool things happening. Um it's been insane.

[00:58:06]It's been intense. Um it is a hell of a journey. M >> uh one day I'm going to just make a happy movie about butterflies, but for now this is the obsession, you know, for now.

[00:58:18]>> Yeah, it'll end up being about monarch butterflies or something like that when eventually. [ __ ] something like that >> probably.

[00:58:23]>> Mark, thank you so much for your time and I know you're very busy. You've got everything going on. I'll put all the links below to the narcissist playbook to um to the Insta Guru as well as well to the book and to your Patreon. Where can people find your Patreon, support the work that you do? I know a lot of your stuff goes on Patreon, which I I subscribe to myself.

[00:58:41]>> Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So, it's just it's patreon.com/markvante.

[00:58:46]Um, and as you know, like I put a lot of raw stuff up there and I get feedback from the audience and kind of gives us a sense of where to go. Um, sometimes it's also like this weird confessional. I just tell people where I'm at. And then as um as we begin to roll out Narcissist playbook, there's a lot of additional material that I'm going to be putting um in Patreon. you know, that my my podcast is one thing. Um, but Patreon is it's just much more raw and and honestly I don't know if I'd say it's more interesting. It's just a it's a behind-the-scenes look as as you've seen. And you've started one too now, haven't you, as well?

[00:59:20]>> Yes, I have. Yeah, I started one about >> I love it.

[00:59:22]>> Yeah. Making monsters with Richard Willlet on Patreon. Yeah. So, um I'm kind of moving. I have a kind of different take because I come from the conspiracy world, self-development world, which is where I met Richard Granon, by the you made a documentary with one of the people that are in your narcissistic playbook film, by the way.

[00:59:39]So, that's how we go back. All massive big old story going on there. Um, so I kind of have true crime, conspiracy world, but they're actually all the same when it comes to the psychology of narcissism and abuse across the board.

[00:59:51]Big cult, little cult, doesn't really matter. They're all um the same. So, I I'm a big fan of your work. I really appreciate your time and hopefully we'll do this again pretty soon.

[01:00:01]>> I would love that. I would love that.

[01:00:03]Thanks, man. Hey man,