@TruthUnites whines about Orthodoxy: Eastern Orthodox response

Added: 2026-06-01

[00:00:00]Hello everybody, this is Nikolai in Korea back at you with another response video. This time we're going to be responding to Gavin Ortlund. Now, I have not watched this yet. So, we're going to go ahead and make sure that this is sped up.

[00:00:16]And then we are going to go right on into it.

[00:00:19]>> Sometimes the response to concerns about the exclusivity of Eastern Orthodox claims about salvation is, well, you Protestants don't understand what we mean by salvation. Protestants think salvation is a one-time event or it's it's just about or mainly focused on just going to heaven when you die. We have a more full orbed view of salvation and so forth. I saw this in a post on X from Jonathan Pageau. I appreciate Jonathan and I regard him as a serious, thoughtful, good faith Orthodox voice.

[00:00:46]And I'm always eager to try to improve the state of online discourse and lower the temperature, especially right now.

[00:00:49]It seems crazy right now. And >> Um, [snorts] why is it crazy right now? Because you and people like yourself refuse to call the Baptists and all of the evangelicals who attack Orthodoxy and by extension Catholicism every single chance you guys get.

[00:01:04]The problem is is that you will not call out needgod.net even though you agree with needgod.

[00:01:10]By the way, you're a Calvinist, right? You believe in salvation by decree, Ortlund.

[00:01:18]Here's the thing about Gavin Ortlund.

[00:01:20]He doesn't actually hold to his own presuppositions, nor will he tell people his presupposition.

[00:01:27]He'll maybe glance over it for a spot for a second, but then he'll just talk about generic Protestantism as if Protestants just agree.

[00:01:37]It's a ridiculous standard, a ridiculous thing that he does, and it's never a serious actual response. He never responds in meaningful uh context what we're actually saying. He talks about uh the temperature in the room and all these things.

[00:01:54]Again, what Gavin's about to do here, and I guarantee you this is what he's about to do. I have not watched this yet. He is going to take out of context statements from people in the Orthodox Church that seem to contradict someone like Jonathan Pageau. But why should we trust Gavin Ortlund and his interpretation of our saints and our bishops and our church versus someone like Jonathan Pageau who is in the church, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, sealed, regenerate, had his nous is cleaned, participates in theosis. Why should we trust him?

[00:02:33]The problem with Protestant discourse with Orthodox is very simple.

[00:02:38]Protestants refuse to abandon certain presuppositions they have to engage with us understanding our paradigm. Instead, they want to apply their legal forensic framework onto our framework. It doesn't work. It's not honest.

[00:02:56]And this is exactly the problem.

[00:02:59]But Gavin always deflects. He says, "Oh, the temperature is so high." Well, who's caused the temperature behind? Orthodox have always been very consistent about our claims. We believe that we are the one true church.

[00:03:10]And here are the reasons why.

[00:03:12]Now, people are outraged by those claims, but that doesn't change the fact that that's what we believe.

[00:03:16]Engage with what we actually say, and maybe we can have fruitful discourse.

[00:03:22]>> And so I try to One way I try to do that is try to engage the best representatives of of other perspectives. And so since he tagged me in his post and I started thinking about it last night, I want to offer a respectful response here for why I don't think Protestant concerns about this issue of exclusivity, no salvation outside the Orthodox Church, uh are are reducible to just a misunderstanding. I think it's >> Um again, he's already using the Protestant language that Jonathan was trying to push back on.

[00:03:50]This is This is mind boggling.

[00:03:53]We just said that our understanding of salvation is very distinct and different from there. We will not make salvific claims normatively about those outside of the church. We believe that God can mystically join people into the Orthodox Church by many means.

[00:04:13]Baptism is one mean.

[00:04:16]And it's the normative means in which God unites him people to himself via his church.

[00:04:24]But we have examples of saints and we have examples of church fathers who have expressed and spoken about extra normative means.

[00:04:33]So once again, just because you find it personally incredulous, Gavin, that for some reason Orthodox are just completely unreasonable about these exclusive claims. You're an exclusivist as well, Gavin. You're a Calvinist.

[00:04:52]You believe in salvation by decree. You believe there are people that are elect and people that are elect unto damnation.

[00:05:03]Now, unless you don't hold to all the Calvinistic paradigms, unless you don't hold to all these Calvinistic presuppositions, if you unless you don't hold the tulip, then I don't even know why you call yourself a Calvinist in the first place.

[00:05:15]You guys are just as exclusivist. The difference is is you want to try and be nice about it.

[00:05:23]You want to have your cake and eat it, too, Gavin.

[00:05:27]>> It's just a disagreement. Not a misunderstanding.

[00:05:30]But I'm I'll listen to responses, but this is my sincere thought process. Now, I'm not going to focus on the fact that Protestants actually agree. Sometimes in the way this is unfolded, Protestant views get caricatured. Protestants totally agree that salvation is a process. Read, you know, historic Protestant theology, um the Dutch Reformed theologians.

[00:05:46]>> Absolutely not. What are you talking about?

[00:05:49]Again, anyone who holds to a Calvinist presupposition about decree salvation by decree and evanescent grace knows absolutely that salvation is not a process. It is a event [snorts] in which one is regenerated.

[00:06:07]From there, you participate in sanctification, but the process of you being saved is a past tense event.

[00:06:16]The only Protestant reformers that don't agree with you, unironically, are people like Luther who doesn't believe in salvation divine decree. The Lutherans don't agree with you, yet you will team up with them every chance you can get.

[00:06:28]Now, of course, modern Protestants, even Lutherans, a lot of them, have been influenced heavily by reformed theology.

[00:06:36]And a lot of them now adopt ridiculous paradigms like PSA, even though that wasn't their historical paradigm.

[00:06:45]So, once again, I'm just I'm asking Gavin, show me the sauce. Give me something. Show me where your views are.

[00:06:53]Why don't you say what your views are, Gavin?

[00:06:57]Instead, this is it's constant pearl-clutching about the temperature in the room and oh, you're misrepresenting the Protestant. No, we're not. Most of us were Protestant. Most of us know the Protestant doctrines very well.

[00:07:10]We studied the major theologians from those backgrounds. But, I don't remember Gavin being up in arms when people like John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul, Paul Washer, um R.C. Sproul Jr., uh and and [clears throat] many of the Bapt- Where Where was Gavin calling on the Baptists to chill out when they were going around calling us uh of the demon spawn and things like that. Oh, the temperature was too high. The Orthobros are causing all this temperature to be high. Oh, come on.

[00:07:38]Where were you calling out all the Protestants who endlessly slander the most holy Theotokos, who slander our saints, who call us kissing dead feet water and things like that. I mean, come on.

[00:07:53]Where was that, Gavin? Where was all this irenic kindness when that happened?

[00:07:59]Of course, it didn't happen.

[00:08:01]>> It's like Herman Ridderbos and your heart is boss and people like that about union in Christ in the past, present, and future. Salvation is past, present, and future. Salvation is a process.

[00:08:09]Protestants also have an emphasis upon participation in God and so forth. But, let's just leave all that aside because I think there's a more important point that I want to make here, and that's the nature of salvation is a distinct question from the recipients of salvation. They are related, but they're distinct. However salvation happens, we still need to know, in fact, who gets it, right? And let me clarify that with a metaphor. So, I'm filming this at the pool today. There may be background noise. I just don't have time to get It's summer break. Uh I don't have time to record something more uh standard.

[00:08:38]Sometimes a video like this can be kind of fun anyway. It's like, you know, no slides, little more rugged. But, suppose that's that it you know, there's a disease going through a city, and there's a a doctor at a at one particular hospital who says, "Only patients who are admitted to this hospital can receive the cure."

[00:08:56]So, this is a statement about exclusivity.

[00:08:58]And then suppose a sick person asks the natural follow-up of, "Okay, so does this mean that everyone else outside this hospital won't be saved?" And then you the answer comes back, "No, no, no, no, no, you're just misunderstanding.

[00:09:10]The cure is not a one-time event." The sick person asking the question is probably still going to have confu- >> That's not the response that we give. We say, "The cure can be found here. The therapeutics that are necessary can be found here.

[00:09:26]But, is there a chance that somebody outside of this hospital, their natural immunity kicks in, and they stumble their way towards an accidental um therapeutic means in which they heal themselves.

[00:09:41]Yeah, happens all the time.

[00:09:43]Is that how you normally want to go about it if you have a serious illness?

[00:09:47]Of course not. You're going to want to go to where the cure is. You're going to want to know where the therapeutics are.

[00:09:54]You're going to want to know how to heal yourself and then not just heal yourself, but get better.

[00:10:00]Go through the process of healing, but also working out, getting stronger, improving your immune system against these various illnesses that attack the human spirit and the ability to fight off future infections from entities like the demons.

[00:10:20]So, his analogy breaks apart almost immediately.

[00:10:24]>> fusion because whether or not the cure is a process or not is a distinct issue from who can receive it. There's a a category confusion here. The cure being a long process doesn't detract from the exclusive statement that was initially made. Only patients in this hospital can receive the cure.

[00:10:40]>> Yeah, there is a category error here and it's you not understanding the categories and after how many years of engaging with Orthodox including speaking with some of the best Orthodox theologians and clergy alive today in the English speaking world like Father Stephen De Young, Father Peter Heerssen, having numerous outlets in which you can go and actually ask these clergy, go and actually ask our bishops, go and actually ask these things.

[00:11:03]For some reason, you continue to not understand these basic things. So, I can only I mean, considering I believe you Gavin to be a immensely intelligent person, I can only assume ill intent to blatantly misrepresent our position so badly that there's simply no way to get around it.

[00:11:26]This is ridiculous.

[00:11:27]>> This is what I've brought attention to.

[00:11:29]In my videos on this topic, I've drawn attention to some pretty strong language in historic Eastern Orthodox contexts, uh synods, encyclicals, various writings of saints. And the language is pretty exclusivistic. You know, one of the points I've made is it's it's hard to know how theoretically you could ratchet it up anymore. How can they be saved unless they openly renounce the Filioque and rejoin the one true church? Apart from a valid bishop in the Orthodox Church, you can't speak of Christians or churches. Uh the Protestant heretics have been forsaken by the Holy Spirit.

[00:11:55]They have no understanding. They're in the darkness, blind. Galatians >> Absolutely.

[00:12:00]But we would say the same thing about anybody, not just the Protestants.

[00:12:04]We'd say the same thing about the pagans.

[00:12:07]We're consistent. That's what you don't like. You don't like that we won't say, "Oh, yeah, you know, believing the Filioque and believing all these heresies, that's totally fine."

[00:12:16]Gavin, you would be one of the guys that's at the council saying, "Hey guys, we really need to be nice with the Nestorians. We really need to be nice to the Arians. We really need to be nice to XYZ heretics. They just They mean well.

[00:12:27]They might be wrong on a few things, but they mean really well." There were a lot of heretics that were condemned by the Ecumenical Councils and by the Church Fathers who were not that different from us, who had some fairly nuanced views, actually, and weren't so wrong in the way that even modern Protestants are to Orthodox.

[00:12:54]There were heretics that were condemned and cut off and anathematized who are much closer to us today than any Protestant sect is to us.

[00:13:08]So, what you want us to suddenly not be consistent?

[00:13:11]You want us to just ignore the history of all these errors? You want us to ignore what the Church Fathers say about being in error, about being a schismatic?

[00:13:23]Come on, Gavin.

[00:13:25]>> one anathemas, charges of apostasy. Both the Catholics and the Protestants are the enemies of the truth, right? You know, very exclusivistic language. And so, trying to steel man the possible reply here. I I I've listened very patiently to the responses to this. I am underwhelmed by them with all love and good good will. I I don't find them persuasive. But, to try to steel man >> That's just an argument from incredulity. So far and and if so far it's been you've been attempting a steel man, it's not been very impressive, Gavin.

[00:13:50]>> One possible reply, I don't want to put words in Jonathan's mouth, but I think this is one possible reply which is close to what he's saying is you could say this in response. You could say, "Well, this language in this exclusivistic in these exclusivistic statements is is just about salvation in the sense of wholeness and healing and the fullness of salvation. Uh it's not about necessarily final eschatological status. In other words, these exclusivistic statements are talking about salvation in a sense that doesn't speak to ending up in hell. They're not talking about salvation in that sense."

[00:14:14]So, that's one possible >> Yeah, we do have two different understandings of salvation. So, sometimes when the church fathers are talking about people not being in paradise, they're talking about the initial judgment. Once you uh die initially, but that the lake of fire does not exist yet, Gavin.

[00:14:32]Hades is not the lake of fire. Everybody will be raised at the last day and everybody after the bodily resurrection will be judged.

[00:14:43]Everybody.

[00:14:46]So, again, this is just a confusion of our understanding of salvation, the process of it, and the eschaton.

[00:14:53]>> reply. The answer to that is I don't think that's authentic to these historical sources. Because if you read them, the healing and participation language is precisely ordered onto eternal life, resurrection, final judgment, final communion with God. And there's a lot of language about everlasting salvation and everlasting damnation and everlasting anathema. And so, you know, >> Yes, if you hold to these errors outside of God being merciful it will lead you to these things.

[00:15:24]But that doesn't mean that God's not going to have mercy on some people. This is why we have prayers for those outside of the church. This is why we have people praying. We have monks and monastics praying for the whole world as we speak. This is why we have prayers praying for those in Hades. This is why we have prayers for those who have reposed outside of the church. This is why we have funeral services for catechumens. This is why we have funeral service for miscarried infants who by necessity are not baptized and joined to the church.

[00:15:51]We have all sorts of things like this, Gavin.

[00:15:55]In fact, your guys' view is worse than ours.

[00:16:03]You guys believe hell already exists.

[00:16:08]But again, you will never defend your own view. It's always about this weird abstraction of attacking Orthodox views and saying, "Oh, it's so uncharitable."

[00:16:16]Meanwhile, you ignore that Calvin believed in salvation by decree. He believed in evanescent He believed that God can literally fool you your entire life that you are saved and you still not be saved.

[00:16:33]Oh my gosh.

[00:16:34]>> Oh, it's really problematic to come later on and try to separate what for the entire Christian tradition and for the scriptures belong together. Christian salvation is not just about going to heaven. And Protestants don't reduce it to that, by the way.

[00:16:46]But it is about that.

[00:16:47]>> Many of them do, Gavin. Why do you Why are you so dishonest about this?

[00:16:53]It act Go talk to needgod.net.

[00:17:00]Okay?

[00:17:01]He'll say good works are necessary, but they have nothing to do with whether you are saved or salvation.

[00:17:08]The good works are a product of it.

[00:17:11]So you can say, "Oh, well, we still believe it's a uh it is a process." Not needgod.net.

[00:17:16]And by the way, that's a huge swath of Protestants that believe exactly what Nigaud doesn't it believes.

[00:17:22]RC Sproul Paul Washer, all of these different types, huge [snorts] names in the Protestant sphere believe these things.

[00:17:31]Baptists Need we go on?

[00:17:36]>> Ultimately, it involves that. It includes that. That is its final purview.

[00:17:40]It's nothing less than that.

[00:17:41]And so and you see that in these sources. So, for example, in the in uh question 272 of St. Philaret's Longer Catechism, this is not a uh ecumenical council level uh sort of binding authority on every single Orthodox Christian. Nevertheless, it's an approved and highly respected Russian Orthodox Catechism.

[00:17:56]It talks about everlasting salvation.

[00:17:57]Listen to this language here. Here's the question. If the Catholic Church, now in this context that means the Eastern Orthodox Church, they call themselves the Catholic Church as well.

[00:18:04]If the Catholic Church contains all true believers in the world, must we acknowledge it to be necessary for salvation that every believer should belong to her?

[00:18:12]Answer, exactly so. Since Jesus Christ, in the words of St. Paul, is the head of church, and he is the savior of the body. It follows that to have part in his salvation, we must necessarily be members of his body, that is of the Catholic Church. Ephesians 5:23. So, there's the exclusivistic statement.

[00:18:23]Now, listen to how that is defined. It continues, "The Apostle Peter writes that baptism saveth us after the figure of the ark of Noah. All who were saved from the general deluge were saved only in the ark.

[00:18:32]So, all who obtain everlasting salvation obtain it only in the one Catholic Church." End quote.

[00:18:39]So >> [laughter] [gasps] >> Okay. Gavin Does that mean just uh Does that mean that the only means in which God can join somebody to his church? By the way, I I want to Gavin, hint. Every single person in heaven every single one of them is an Orthodox Christian.

[00:19:01]Even the prophets.

[00:19:04]Even Adam and Eve.

[00:19:06]Even those that are joined mystically to its body are Orthodox. It is only within the church that any salvation is possible.

[00:19:15]It is only because the church exists headed by Christ and because of the prayers of the saints that there is any chance for mercy for those outside of the church. Otherwise, God would not tell us to pray for people.

[00:19:31]This is just a misunderstanding of a general statement talking about the normative means in which God unites people to his church.

[00:19:46]Again, without fail, every single video Gavin makes essentially boils down to argument from incredulity.

[00:19:57]>> The adjective everlasting means something.

[00:20:00]Are we being asked to believe that eschatological status, ending up in heaven or ending up in hell, ultimately, is not included here in the language of everlasting salvation? What does the word everlasting mean except for everlasting?

[00:20:12]Or consider the language of eternal anathema in the 1848 encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs. This is a letter sent from the four Eastern Patriarchs responding to Pope Pius the IX condemning the Roman Catholic Church as heretical and apostate. And throughout this document, I mean again, it's the kind of thing it's like they they couldn't have used stronger language.

[00:20:26]It's blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It's Galatians 1 anathema. The Catholics are the enemies of the church with reprobate minds. Um the papacy is of one piece with Arianism. What Arianism was then, the papacy and the filioque are today.

[00:20:38]That's the thinking. Go read it online.

[00:20:41]>> Yeah, what's the problem with that?

[00:20:43]We're condemning the beliefs of those groups. Does that mean, once again, that God does not have extra-normative means to join people to his church?

[00:20:51]No.

[00:20:54]Holding to these beliefs in ignorance is much different than a positive affirmation against it.

[00:21:01]Please remember, Gavin.

[00:21:03]The people that are going to be on much more serious of grounds of the people that know better and still reject the truth. These are responses to people that were Orthodox, were united to the church, and have separated from them.

[00:21:19]There's going to be much harsher language because an apostate is a much more serious offense than somebody born into ignorance.

[00:21:27]This is why you won't find nearly as harsh language towards say a Buddhist.

[00:21:37]Granted, we have a lot less connections and interactions with them, but go read St. Nicholas of Japan's writings on Buddhism.

[00:21:47]And the Buddhists themselves.

[00:21:52]Of course, you can't be bothered with that. You just want to cherry-pick um a couple quotes that you find absolutely ridiculous to sow outrage amongst your audience so that they won't look into the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[00:22:06]>> And I've stated this at greater length in other video contexts. But, it's good to have my kids running around in my line of vision to to keep me pleasant.

[00:22:13]That's how I feel. Um but it's very strong. It's very bracing.

[00:22:16]It doesn't hold back. It's not giving qualified or nuanced condemnations. And in the context of these denunciations, it is stipulated that any who change the faith, who make heretical intrusions, and that would be in this context the Catholics, the Roman Catholics, as opposed to >> Again, what is a heretic? A heretic is someone who is obstinately opposed to the truth. If your little Baptist grandmas walking down the street one day and she's trying to follow Jesus with all her heart, she's never heard of the Orthodox Church, never has had the opportunity to know about the Orthodox Church, etc., etc., and she dies doing her best for Jesus, we pray that God will have mercy on them.

[00:22:57]And you want to know it, it can even be said that we think that God will have mercy on them.

[00:23:04]But we don't stand in the judgment seat of God. We've said this I don't know how many dozens of times we've said this to you.

[00:23:12]Father Stephen De Young, one of the best scholars in the English-speaking Orthodox world, has told you this, Gavin. And yet for some reason, you seem to think that you can interpret these things and apply these things better than he can.

[00:23:26]You don't think we're not aware of this stuff?

[00:23:29]You don't think that we're not aware of this exclusivist and rigorous language?

[00:23:32]Course not.

[00:23:35]But once again, you're more interested in feigning outrage than actually engaging.

[00:23:43]Cuz it hurts your feelings. That's really what it comes down to, doesn't it, Gavin?

[00:23:48]>> The these Orthodox are said to be struck with eternal anathema for blaspheming the Holy Ghost. And then it quotes Galatians 1 and it quotes Christ's words about blaspheming the Holy Spirit. So, because of the responses, I need to put the question like this. Are we seriously being asked to believe that an eternal anathema, in the context of blaspheming the Holy Ghost, which is the unforgivable sin, doesn't have reference to final eschatological salvation? How >> Yes, are as every Catholic equally equally responsible for the decisions of their leadership and aware of the decisions of their leadership?

[00:24:24]Are we serious here with it Are we serious with this, Gavin?

[00:24:27]I mean, this is just dishonesty at this point.

[00:24:29]You are smart enough to know better than this.

[00:24:33]>> How else could you reference it than with that language?

[00:24:37]Here's a third example from the confession of Dositheus uh from the 1672 Synod of Jerusalem. I've cited this many times. This is a pretty pretty Again, a pretty bracing series of statements.

[00:24:45]This one is occasion is not in response to the Catholics, but in response to the Protestants. Uh >> It's specifically in response to Calvinists, Gavin, which you are one of them, which you always try and avoid to tell your audience because you have just as exclusive as claims. In fact, you believe in salvation by decree that God has decreed some unto damnation.

[00:25:03]By necessity, this is a basic doctrine of Calvin. So, if you don't even hold to the basic doctrine of Calvin, why do you claim to be a Calvinist?

[00:25:12]Just be a non-denominational evangelical where you can believe anything you want.

[00:25:16]>> And I have a whole video on what occasions this with the patriarch Cyril Lucaris. You can look for that video entitled A Calvinist Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople. I I recount all this history there. But, there's lots of exclusionary language. Um the dignity the the >> Uh just a note, uh Cyril Lucaris uh was brought before two different synods and renounced and denied being Calvinist both times.

[00:25:39]>> Bishop is so necessary to the church that without him you don't have church or Christian.

[00:25:42]Uh these heretics forsake the church. They have not the Holy Spirit. They have no understanding. They're in the dark. You know, all all this language. And so, then we ask the question, "Okay, could it be that this language is talking about salvation in some sense less than final eschatological sense?

[00:25:55]Could it be that it's not talking about going to hell?"

[00:25:57]Well, once again, that's not an authentic reading either in the historical context for how this language is used or just >> You realize none of this was written in English.

[00:26:07]This this is another problem. None of this was written in English.

[00:26:11]And again, when you're condemning a belief system, you're condemning the system that can lead people to these final states.

[00:26:21]You're not condemning each individual soul, Gavin.

[00:26:27]And in particular, it's most of the time these are specifically addressing the leaders who are leading these people. So, actually, Gavin, no offense, you're in a much more dangerous of a situation than any of your listeners.

[00:26:41]Because you're leading people into falsehoods and misunderstandings about the Orthodox Church, and thus you are harming your own soul in the process.

[00:26:50]>> is what's explicit in the text. So, if you keep reading to the epilogue, it says I'll just read it exactly so people don't get mad. "Terror will overtake those that have separated from the church the pains that are reserved for heathens and publicans." The pains that are reserved >> separated from the church. Are you separate Did you separate yourself from the church, Gavin? Or were you born born outside of it?

[00:27:10]That's talking about apostates.

[00:27:13]Talking about people who leave the church for this. You Please remember, Gavin, the Confession of Dositheus is not for you.

[00:27:23]It's not for people outside of the church to be reading.

[00:27:26]It's not In fact, the modern internet has allowed you to read those statements even though they weren't meant for you.

[00:27:34]They're meant for people inside the church saying, "If you hold or adopt any of these beliefs, Orthodox Christian, and separate yourself from the church, you're condemning yourself."

[00:27:47]This is for internal use. That's the context.

[00:27:52]That is in fact the context.

[00:27:54]>> reserved for heathens and publicans does refer to final damnation in hell.

[00:28:00]And so, and I could give more examples of this, but the point that I'm trying to make is when the Eastern Orthodox Church claims there's no salvation outside the church, no salvation outside of Eastern Orthodoxy, it is not speaking in a more limited, qualified way that would only apply to this life and wouldn't apply to final eternal destiny.

[00:28:13]Destiny, no, that is included. That is referenced. And the reason that we as Protestants reject this claim is not that we misunderstand it with all good respects and love and goodwill and desire >> No, you just misunderstand it because I can poke holes into your ridiculous theory in 5 seconds, and I'm not even a Orthodox scholar.

[00:28:30]>> [laughter] >> Like, this is just this is just argument from incredulity times X. This is the same video he's created 10 different times to Sunday. He's created He's made these same arguments 50 different times.

[00:28:43]>> desire to improve our dialogue and have positive relationship across our differences, all of which I so deeply desire in my heart. But uh that doesn't preclude vigorous argumentation. And here I want to say it is not that we misunderstand, it is that we disagree.

[00:28:55]And we think that these exclusivistic statements are not consistent with the New Testament.

[00:28:59]>> Go talk to your Baptist, go talk to your Calvinist, go talk to R.C. Sproul, go talk to Paul Washer, go talk to any of the dozens of clergy or people that have been engaging in the online space who say that we are damned to hell because we're idolaters.

[00:29:13]Oh, but just ignore that, Gavin. Just ignore that. Yeah, well yeah, well they're not really Protestant. Oh, come on. They're Protestant. Stop pretending otherwise, Gavin. And stop pretending you don't hold to the same exclusivist claims. And if you don't, you're not a Calvinist, and therefore why do you claim to be one?

[00:29:31]>> We're not making an appeal to emotion, and we're not advocating for universalism, and all these charges that are >> Literally exactly what you're doing.

[00:29:37]>> sometimes made that really represent a misunderstanding. We're appealing to the words of our Lord, where we are to discern the good tree on the basis of good fruit, and all these other texts that reference from the New Testament, 1 Corinthians 12:3, and so on.

[00:29:47]>> There's all sorts of Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals.

[00:29:52]Uh let's How How long are the list do we need to go? Donatists, Sabellian Sabellianists. Uh let Pelagians.

[00:30:04]Right? People that are Pelagians.

[00:30:07]There's all sorts of people.

[00:30:09]Universalists.

[00:30:12]Mormons.

[00:30:16]We can go on and on and on that all would say the same thing.

[00:30:20]They have good fruit, Gavin. Oh, they have such good fruit, Gavin. Oh, Gavin, how can you condemn them to hell? They have such great fruit.

[00:30:32]Once again, he keeps on saying this is not an argument from emotion, but it seems very much so.

[00:30:36]>> and many others in my videos on this and in my book. Actually, chapter one of my book, What It Means to Be Protestant.

[00:30:40]Now, of course, I understand Again, we have to ward off the misunderstandings.

[00:30:43]Some people are going to say, "Oh, you don't understand. Not everything you referenced is necessarily binding on every Orthodox Christian." No, I do understand that. I get that. I'm talking about historical historical Orthodox teaching. And others are going to say, "Well, but but no no no, that we're That's not what what people believe."

[00:30:55]>> Yeah, but even the ones that you referenced here, I was able to answer very easily, and they weren't even that difficult. And I wasn't even that anxious about it. Like, he's like, "You guys are running from this." No, we're not.

[00:31:06]>> [laughter] >> You You guys literally just don't understand. Oh, do we misunderstand?

[00:31:10]Yes, literally, this video is one big misunderstanding. It is, once again, an example of why Dosetheus says, "No, you shouldn't be reading by yourself. You need the guidance of a spiritual father, because you going off and reading this is exactly the kind of thing he's talking about when it comes to reading scripture."

[00:31:29]You're not equipped to do so, Gavin.

[00:31:31]>> believe today. I I get that. I know that's not what many Orthodox Christians believe today. That's kind of my point, is there's been a changing of the tune here.

[00:31:37]Prior to the 19th century, and a a lot during the 19th, as well.

[00:31:41]And with the occasional continuance to today, the teaching of the Orthodox Church about salvation was more rigorous and exclusivistic, and it did involve within its purview final salvation as well.

[00:31:53]And that's >> No, that's just not true. We still hold to the same position as always. Yes, sometimes our language is a little bit more harsh.

[00:32:01]Um but that's because the emphasis is whom we're addressing.

[00:32:07]When we're evangelizing somebody, it's going to be very different than when talking about somebody in the church and warning them of these heretics and these heresies. You have to warn your flock and tell them, if you leave the church for these heresies, your soul is in serious danger.

[00:32:28]>> is our concern, is we just don't think that's true based on the New Testament. Final comment is, let's try to work on our dialogue on this. I mean, my gosh, the the the online discourse right now is pretty tough. I have to say with all love that now I'm responding to Jonathan Pageau because I really respect him. And there are so many fantastic representatives of the Eastern Orthodox tradition that I try to engage with them because I feel they are they are good faith people that I honestly really admire in so many ways. And I am not of the mind as anyone knows who follows my work that we as Protestants are condemning everyone on the other side. I think many of these people are wonderful Christians. But I have to say I think there's a lot of arrogance from others in the online world that comes against us and it's just asserted very condescendingly if you don't agree with us then you just don't get it. You just don't understand.

[00:33:05]And then that leads to >> Uh yeah, it's called being illuminated by the Holy Spirit. You hold to this too. You believe that people outside cannot come to true faith unless they're illuminated also.

[00:33:18]Gavin stop with the piety signaling. So sickening. It's so disgusting.

[00:33:26]So and and frankly it's it's like the worst type of dysfunctional womanly behavior.

[00:33:34]Dysfunctional womanly behavior. Not condemning all women here. Ladies, if you're listening.

[00:33:40]Pathetic.

[00:33:42]>> an incredible proliferation of motive attribution and character assassination.

[00:33:45]So I guess I'm just saying I want to acknowledge that and say uh some people are just going to do that no matter what. To them I just tune it out completely. But for everybody else who's interested like I am in trying to improve the dialogue.

[00:33:54]>> Well, clearly not because you're making a video about it and you're commenting about it. I tune it out completely. No, you just aren't willing to engage. Let's just be real.

[00:34:02]And by the way, Jonathan Pageau, I almost guarantee you if you showed him this video, he might not use as harsh of language as I do. He's much more irenic than I am.

[00:34:10]But if Jonathan Pageau heard this video, he probably would say, "Yeah, this guy is saying exactly what I would say in response."

[00:34:18]He might say it a little nicer.

[00:34:21]But that's just a personality difference.

[00:34:23]>> dialogue. Let's lower the temperature and let's stick with the arguments. If you are an Eastern Orthodox Christian and you disagree with what I'm saying in this video, fine. Make an argument.

[00:34:31]Engage the various three historical texts I've just cited and give an alternative interpretation of them.

[00:34:36]>> I just did.

[00:34:38]>> Engage the New Testament text and give a plausible rendering of text like Matthew 7:15-20, but don't just call me a liar and denounce me and attack my character.

[00:34:44]That's not going to convince anybody.

[00:34:45]It's not helpful to the dialogue and that's kind of where >> Well, we're not here to convince you, Gavin. You've already made your bed.

[00:34:51]If you do change your mind, great. If you give up all the money's, if you give up all of the the fame and uh other things that come with this, sure.

[00:35:00]I mean, fine. Whatever.

[00:35:02]Let's be real, dude. Let's be real real.

[00:35:05]You're not much older than me.

[00:35:07]Uh believe it or not, guys. He's only like I think like 8 years older than me.

[00:35:10]That's like an older brother.

[00:35:13]>> [laughter] >> Um he's not much older than me.

[00:35:18]Uh so Gavin stop being so sensitive. Like seriously, dude.

[00:35:27]>> where we're at. We have a real sticking point when we understand the exclusivity of the Orthodox Church and how to cast that out. It's an honest disagreement.

[00:35:32]Maybe there are misunderstandings that impinge here, but we need to work at that in ways that are more about board and not just attacking people's character. I'm thankful for people like Jonathan and so many other Orthodox Christians who do that. They >> Okay, then why don't you engage with us?

[00:35:45]Because you find excuses for any of the people that you consider too exclusivist or rigorist not to engage with them. You always try and find the ecumenists in every tradition.

[00:35:56]>> agent good faith. They're they're interested in trying to say, let's help the dialogue get better and so forth.

[00:35:59]Let's keep arguing. We're allowed to make arguments, but when we steer away from argumentation altogether and we're just blasting away at the character of people, we're actually may I may I say this strongly as we're actually dishonoring Christ himself. It's we who bear his name.

[00:36:14]>> Guys, this video has ended up being basically a nothingburger. It's an entire video dedicated to feigning outrage about the rigorists, about the orthobros, without saying our name.

[00:36:30]Without engaging with us.

[00:36:33]And here is my call to Gavin.

[00:36:38]You'll never ever ever do this.

[00:36:41]Why don't you ask one of us to come on?

[00:36:45]Why don't you ask one of us to come into your DMs?

[00:36:52]We are increasingly seeing a lot of people reject your guys's paradigm.

[00:36:57]And it's going to continue to happen if you refuse to do this.

[00:37:02]So, make your choice.

[00:37:05]>> I didn't plan to go into sermon mode here at the end of this. Disregard that if it doesn't apply to you.

[00:37:08]But, I think that needs to be said in the state of discourse. So, I hope this video will explain a very simple point.

[00:37:13]Let's reiterate it. The nature of salvation is distinct conceptually from the subjects of salvation. Even if salvation is a process, even if we want to clarify the nature of how it happens, we still have this question of who's it for? And I think the historic orthodox teaching on that is about as clear as it could be. I can't imagine really honestly how it could be clearer.

[00:37:33]And it and and the concern with that is not an appeal to emotion, it's an appeal to the New Testament. So, I hope that video is clear.

[00:37:38]>> Okay, whatever. Yeah. The um again, this is just it was a nothingburger.

[00:37:44]Um the reason he engages with Jonathan Pageau is because he doesn't expect Jonathan to actually attack this view and be aggressive about it. But, you guess what? All these orthobros that you don't like, Gavin, Jonathan has no issues with.

[00:38:00]Jonathan hangs out and actually is engaged with someone like J. Dyer.

[00:38:04]He's engaged with someone like Neil from Dirt Poor Robins, who also hangs out with J. Dyer. Let's all be real. The real people you have problems with are people like J.

[00:38:14]Why does it have to be like tiptoed around? Why is it beat around the bush?

[00:38:17]Just say the names of the people you think aren't engaging well.

[00:38:22]Please, say the names.

[00:38:24]Is it Father Stephen?

[00:38:26]Father Ron?

[00:38:28]Father Peter Heers?

[00:38:29]Who?

[00:38:34]It's getting utterly ridiculous.

[00:38:38]With that being said, guys, I hope you enjoyed this video. Please let me know if you want me to respond to anything uh anything else in the comments below, and please share this video.

[00:38:46]I appreciate you guys. Have a wonderful day.