Proof Research and PXT Rifling

Added: 2026-05-28

[00:00:05]Hey guys, this is Mike from Sons of Liberty Gun Works and I'm sitting here with Greg from Proof Research.

[00:00:11]We got Scott over here who's our director of special programs and projects and Shawn Murphy who is our VP of sales, marketing and a lot of development stuff and just overall gun guru.

[00:00:24]And we wanted to sit down and start talking a little bit about the things that Sons have been working on specifically in regards to the stuff that Proof has been working on.

[00:00:34]Stuff that's been going on behind the scenes for a long time, longer than you know, I've been super excited to do this video for I guess a couple of years.

[00:00:44]Just knowing and we're finally able to start talking about a little bit and yeah, Greg, you want to kind of explain what were or explain who you are a little bit.

[00:00:55]Tell tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, thanks again for having me down here to San Antonio.

[00:01:02]Greg Hamilton, director of special projects. I think I stole stole his title.

[00:01:10]I've been with Proof Research since its inception 15 years ago.

[00:01:15]Held a bunch of different titles and responsibilities along the way, but most recently what we've got here is kind of been the combination of a lot of the years of experience and work coming together.

[00:01:31]We are releasing officially the PXT rifling. So this will be Proof Exponential Twist Rifling to the market. It's been, you know, as you know, behind the scenes for quite a long time.

[00:01:49]It is a new way of getting the bullet spun up to its prescribed twist rate.

[00:01:59]Um it has its inspiration uh that we kind of learned about. I think we started in 2018 doing medium caliber cannon barrels.

[00:02:10]Um medium caliber for us is uh above 50 caliber and below 70 75 mm.

[00:02:19]So >> So between 50 cal and 75 mm. So that's where the this like all this kind of started to emerge. Correct. That's that's one of those where um you know, the barrels are 3 ft long to 10 and 1/2 ft long. So um they have at that point they're ordinance. That's it's like not shoulder fired.

[00:02:42]Um you know, projectiles are going to be in thousands of grains to multi-pounds.

[00:02:47]Um and those those projectiles are um not being engraved down the length of the the bearing surface, but instead um the body is going to ride on top of the lands and it will have a driving band um bronze alloy or or some of the new stuff is running a polymer driving band.

[00:03:07]So with that, they needed to start the twist rate very very slow and ramp up progressively down the length of the bore uh so you don't strip that uh driving band off.

[00:03:23]How were those types of barrels made traditional What was the traditional process for making a barrel like that until this technology? Oh man. Um well, it's been it's been in uh service probably 50s, 60s, 70s.

[00:03:39]Um in in the medium caliber world.

[00:03:43]Um some of those are are broached. Um you know, ECM uh the electrochemical machining um kind of debuted. I think I've read some D Tech papers all the way back into the '60s on that.

[00:03:58]It's you have a lot more space to work with when when the Yeah, it's like a couple of issues with the hammer, big big fight.

[00:04:08]But, you know, for for us, we started that in '18 and um we always threatened to take lessons learned from those projects and roll it into small arms for what people really know know us for.

[00:04:26]And I think [clears throat] by '23 um was really starting to put a lot of thought into it. By '24, yeah, sent Shawn a a SIG Creed barrel and I'm like, "Hey, man, it's the this does not look normal.

[00:04:45]Don't don't be scared. I've already gone through the scary part. Um Yeah, and turned off first rounds. He wasn't sure if it was one of those scenarios where you should close your eyes or and hope for the best.

[00:04:58]Yeah, we've been there.

[00:05:01]Yeah, it turned into like, "Holy smokes, this thing is crushing it. This is worthy of taking conventional cut rifled barrels off of our match guns and putting this in its place."

[00:05:15]Um but, I know you you guys are competing on the I don't know, the absolute top top of the precision competition.

[00:05:24]Um you know, you you guys are winning almost everything I'll go see. I mean, this is you know, I'm a big fan of watching y'all shoot. Yeah. I see the results. And so, if you're taking if you're using this equipment in competition, it's because you honestly believe it is giving you the absolute best competitive advantage. Like, this is not You you guys would not stake y'all's competitive reputations on Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a gimmick, right? Like, it's the the is there where you would just not use it. Correct. Y'all are shooting the way >> Yeah. Yeah, we I mean, I don't know I mean, we've shot together since 2017, so long before I was at Sons, but uh yeah, we kind of Yeah, I So, tell us a little bit about yourself, Sean, cuz I want to like we're going to be we're going to kind of circle back to this, but but Sean, who are you and then what do you do? Who is your daddy and what does he do?

[00:06:09]>> [laughter] >> Got you. Uh yeah, so as you said, VP of Sales and Marketing here, but um cut my teeth for a long time at Nightforce, so I was kind of a front-facing guy there and got to do sales, marketing, product stuff. Um but along the way kind of nerd for shooting and was able to uh harness my position there to get to do a lot of cool stuff in a lot of different disciplines. And along the way um got to meet Greg and then eventually also got to meet Scott here. That's kind of how I'm here is like all these guys sitting right here. Um but uh kind of a the very short version is uh Greg and I got linked up to go shoot a team match together in Montana in spring of '17 with like 5 weeks notice, something like that. He's like, "Hey, just bring a bring a pistol and like we'll work out the rest." And so, we ended up shooting that. We took second place. Like, "Hey, this is actually kind of fun." And worked out together. Like, we just gelled instantly kind of thing.

[00:07:01]And then pretty much became like best buddies since. Like, I officiated his wedding and um many many hours on the phone. Our unofficial team name is Unhealthy Bromance.

[00:07:13]Yeah. So, um So, yeah, so we've we've shot a lot of rounds together and and it kind of really drove like I've been a competitive shooter for a long time, started a pistol and then got into carbine stuff and then worked for Nightforce. That got me into the long range side to it. And uh and then yeah, with Greg got into kind of the team Unknown Distance and that's like now the the offshoots of that of a variety of of disciplines. And um I wish Gas Guns part of it as well as Bolt Guns and what and what not. And so, I just love shooting it But, uh yeah, to your point, we we started, you know, we got second place the first match we ever shot and we've shot almost 50 matches now and we have and we've got Yeah, we've won like 45 of them or so.

[00:07:59]Well, I want to say it again. So, out of 50 matches y'all shot together, y'all have won 45 of them. Ish. Ish. Okay, yeah. So, yeah, that's that's not bad.

[00:08:09]So, when I see at the top of the competitive game and this the equipment that you're using Yeah. Well, we and I guess the to tie it all together is we were both fortunate at, you know, now I mean Sons is the same way as as it was in my last job. Like, you know, I kind of had access to the resources of the company and Greg in the same way, you know, and then other partners along the way. Like, we both do some work with Hornady and some other companies. And so, the uh we're able to kind of harness and what turned into like a fun thing for us and turned out to be pretty good at actually help drive in a lot of ways.

[00:08:41]Whether at the time it was like optics and reticles or, you know, what now on his side was turned into PXT and like, you know, Hornady ATIPs. We're shooting that before it was released. And so, we got to be at the front edge of stuff. We look back and we're like, man, we do some cool stuff. And uh and so, to your point of like when he got that barrel, you know, I burned out a whole bunch of 6 Creed barrels. And so, I'm pretty familiar with a Proof 24-in 6 Creed barrel, what it can do, the load, how it felt like when you get to that point, you're like, how the gun recoils, like the subtlety to it. It's like, that is different and in a better way. And so, um Oh, I can't wait to We're going to go into the weeds. It's super new. Yeah, we're going to we're going to get into the weeds here, man. It's Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:18]So, Yeah, and so, yeah, but to Greg's point, too, he's like, hey man, I work for barrel company, so like we're never going to have issues because of barrels.

[00:09:26]But, also, if it's not good enough, we're not going to replace what we got.

[00:09:29]And so, when he says something is good on a barrel, it's like, okay, you know, open your eyes and see what's going on.

[00:09:35]In the in the time that we've been talking about a over a year now, you know, you and I I've These guys were kind of, you know, handling the relationship proof or something. We got involved, started talking.

[00:09:46]I got to tell you, one of the most forward-thinking, like, kind of perfection, precision-driven people I've I've ever met in the industry. And then I mean the your standards are insane. By the way >> [laughter] >> No, I'm like I project the phone, I'm like, "What's wrong with this thing?"

[00:10:03]My my wife is going to appreciate that as well, cuz it's like middle of night, wake up 3:00, like, "Ah, I got an idea, write it down, try to go back to bed."

[00:10:11]Um it's it's 24/7, it's non-stop um in pursuit of something better.

[00:10:17]Um There's a saying that like balance is the antithesis of greatness. You know, anybody that's going to be truly great at anything I mean that's you know, you almost singularly obsessively focused on that one thing. I I can relate. That explains all of our problems.

[00:10:33]I wish I actually tried it out. Tried to get weird on things and >> Yeah, yeah. Um Yeah, it's there's been so many um projects that were in the pursuit of a competitive edge for for me. Um you know, 2014 um Precision Rifle Series, um the Gaskins Series portion of it. Um we came out with the uh rifle length plus two uh gas system where we extended the gas system out to reduce the port pressure um on the 6.5 to really get them to hum.

[00:11:09]Um that provided a competitive edge right there. Then the following year we rolled into the plus three on the six Creedmoor intermediates on you know, 16-in 5.56.

[00:11:21]So optimizing the gun to run to its, you know, ammo potential. Um and and getting the most out of it so he and I could focus more on you know, finding the targets and hitting them than keeping the gun running.

[00:11:37]Um, and in that also rolled into Scott, you know, when when I met him um, at the Army Marksmanship Unit. It's like, "Hey, you're you're doing cool things and you know, something that we rarely would see say to people, but um, unhealthy bromance, yes. Um, resource unlimited, also. Um, we could tap into the best of the best. Um, if we didn't have an answer, we knew somebody that could provide an answer. And, you know, from a a high-level marksmanship standpoint, um, AMU has a lot of jobs out there, but being the best at pulling trigger is one of them. And, yeah, that's how he and I kind of really kind of connected.

[00:12:26]>> That's Scott also. Scott, tell us about yourself. Um, yeah, so Scott Peterson, uh, director of special projects here. Uh, do some product development R&D, is kind of what all that entails and and you know, whatever Mike ta- tasks me to do. Um, and it's it's been awesome. So, I met Mike, uh, so I've been the 20 years in military, did some time in the Marine Corps, got on the Marine Corps shooting team. Uh, left the Marine Corps, went over uh, to the Army side and did a right at 9 years in the Army Marksmanship Unit where through that, um, actually when I was transitioning from the uh, the our Marine Corps to the Army is when I kind of got spun up with with Mike and uh, there's some herbs to just chat, you know, and for years we never actually met each other, but we'd spend a lot of conversations and then, you know, kind of fast forward, I was getting close to retirement and was reached out to Mike and like, "Hey, I don't I don't know what I want to do, you know?" And he's like, "Well, you always got a job here." kind of thing, you know, and it was we for years we waited on that and then but at the AMU, you know, I was surrounded by um, I mean, just the best trigger pullers in the world. Yep. Legit.

[00:13:24]>> Across across all the spectrums from a shotgun to a rimfire air rifle, you know, pistols, etc. Whether be accuracy based program or speed or mix of both.

[00:13:34]And so we've I've seen a lot of different things over the years of different barrels from all and there's a lot of great companies out there, obviously, and a lot of great people in those companies. Um and then but we always try to gravitate just like some of your you know, your LE and and federal agencies and and you know, W agents you know, units as well as what's what's the best, right? And kind of you know, you guys nailed it as far as like the competitive advantage. If it's not going to be good, if it's going to be worse than what we have, if it's not better and and even met, you know, even a magnitude of better, um it's probably not worth our time, right? And so if we're going to make a change, it has to be quantifiable and show up. And so you know, running into you guys over the years at matches, um you know, working through Mike, I'm just friends of conversations and always just hey, here's what I've learned, here's what he's learned in the industry. We were able to put some stuff together. And then when I retired, came on board a little over a year ago, um you know, I even brought Shawn and Greg out to to AMU to teach a couple years back. We were the whole team was getting ready for Mammoth Sniper Challenge. These guys had won like everything knowing at the time that we have a team in front of it or sniper team or whatever it was the the match was called.

[00:14:40]So we instructed a lot at AMU.

[00:14:43]And so not just because they were amazing shooters, but they also are secretly instructors on the side that a lot of guys don't know and have been doing that a while at a very, very high level. So like bringing them in for the organization piece, bringing them in for the knowledge that they have. Um as well as not just related to the shooting aspect, but what they know in technology of of things, whether it be a Nightforce product or, you know, Proof product. So we kind of coordinated that and we also visit with our gunsmiths and stuff like that. So there's been a lot of, you know, knowledge sharing over the years, um you know, for my understanding talking to you like some of the progressive or gain twist, if you will, or or uh rifling type has been around for many, many years. It's just now what is what's next? What's new? We're changing bullet construction. We're changing you know, pressures of ammo that we'll get into in in a bit. But, um you know, I've I've had a pretty awesome career. I can't I have no no regrets, as as we say, not a single letter. But, um had a little awesome career in precision shooting. Um got more into the team stuff more recently in the in the last couple years. But, you know, won some stuff in PRS, won some stuff in the NRLs uh stuff, won some team matches, you know, and I've always I'm able to do that because of guys like Shawn and and and Greg and you, you know, building the guns that work, building the you know, making awesome barrels that we could compete and win with and and optics, you know, uh and other industries. We're just learning, you know, just the knowledge sharing, I mean. Yeah. Um Yeah.

[00:16:05]>> know if there's a more comprehensive duo out there from instruction to to knowledge, whether it be a, you know, if they're selling a product or making one.

[00:16:13]I mean, these guys are are freaking spot-on, you know, um Well, and I just and the reason why I wanted to kind of get some of this out of the way. I know you guys don't like talking about yourselves or bragging about yourselves, but I I do. I like talking about you guys and bragging about you. You see? But, I want to kind of for the for the audience that doesn't know y'all, doesn't know y'all's backgrounds, which y'all come from, it's important to establish I guess baseline kind of credibility that from some of the two of the best two of the best legitimately match shooters in the country, the Army Marksmanship Unit, some of the best shooters in the world.

[00:16:43]And to be on that team, to even remain your to keep the to keep your place on that team, you have to win. People always like, that's awesome. You guys get paid to shoot. You're like, no, we get paid to win.

[00:16:54]Yeah. You want to You want to ruin a hobby? Just shoot it for a living. Yeah.

[00:16:58]And then be pressured into doing well at it. Yeah.

[00:17:00]>> It's It's uh It's pretty wild. And it's I think we all feel, you know, like your comment about staying up waking up at 3:00 a.m. because it's always a always a a move to make the next best thing. It's the same thing in the in the competitive sports. And it's no different than it's a professional shooting team. Yeah. And we're professional gun builders and barrel makers and salesgirls.

[00:17:18]Yeah. Uh-huh. But there's the the the reason again, just this the reason why I wanted to hammer on that a little bit is because having been in this industry for we're going on our 13th year now.

[00:17:29]I've seen so much stuff come in and go out. Like it there's some new gimmick, some new [ __ ] some new whatever, and it's new for the sake of being new, but they haven't made any type of meaningful improvement to it, right? And and and you see this idea and that idea is always being and then it fades away, right? But whenever you start seeing tech that is legitimately driving everything and like it is you know, you can replicate it in a lab, you can measure results, it's quantifiable.

[00:17:57]And it's it really is driving the future, that is different. So this like you know, we're not talking about this isn't a gimmick, this isn't something that we can you know, whatever, the the results are pretty crazy. Now, I'll let you get back into the kind of the precision aspect, but but even longevity, the you you know, recoil is that is it's a it's a very different way to make a barrel. Mhm.

[00:18:19]Well, and just to kind of I guess capstone everything of what I think makes our group gel really well and get along is we're pursuing, you know, excellence whether it's, you know, motivated by maybe competition or work or something else, but then also the consideration of it's an ecosystem. It's not just the barrel or the bullet or the gun. It's actually how it all works together.

[00:18:42]>> Systems level approach, yeah.

[00:18:43]>> that's the that's the pro grade approach to it. Like a race car team doesn't look at the race car, they're looking at the fuel and the tires and the how fast they change the tires. Everything matters and that's very rare. I mean, to your point, like we're not making gimmicks, we're like, is this legitimately better? And sometimes it's as we'll talk about it here on like this one project that we really want to talk about is like you need to know all the variables cuz we can make a better gun or barrel without necessarily specifics or um just to make something different, but it's like what is it doing it better or worse or helping or like how does all that interface together? And that's that's I think the the super fun part that we all like is like it's not just we made this awesome barrel, but like what's crap hanging off the end of it versus >> Wait, in in the big freak like the places where we have we've worked together on this barrel, they're not just taking your word for it. It's gone through some of the most rigorous testing in the world.

[00:19:37]Uh you know, and the the results are there. This is not like, "Hey man, you know, we we shot a couple rounds in the backyard." Like this is the stuff that we're working on and at the highest levels of military programs in the future weapon development and you know, from what I'm tracking it's it's performing well, right? So maybe that's right back to you. I just kind of wanted to establish kind of where we're coming from in this. The So you you hit on it a little bit that you know, gain twist has been done before.

[00:20:02]Absolutely.

[00:20:04]Historically in small arms, um a gain twist was uh a linear progression. If it was break it down on a 24-in barrel, and it started from a a 10 twist at the breech, you know, at 12 in it's going to be a nine, and at the muzzle it's going to be eight. And you can predict where what the twist rate's going to be through its entire length.

[00:20:26]And the validity of that has been debated on Snipers' Hide and everywhere else, especially with the traditional kind of that that kind of gain twist. So you know, and it's it's there. It's it's probably never going to go away, and it's um it's a very incremental um change down its length. We we took a completely different approach.

[00:20:50]And if we stick that same 24-in barrel, um you know, we might be starting at tens of feet, you know, one in 500. I'll do the math. That's 41 ft. Yeah. Yeah, the breech. And then um but for the end user the only thing that matters to them honestly is going to be you know the muscle it and it makes it twist Yeah so twist rate um more proper terminology at this point might be spin rate since we're not twisting the same down and slight but um it'll be engraved PXT dash 7.5 7.5 goes into the Kestrel and the Ford off or AB and and that's all that really matters but what that what that gained and uh what we learned along the way you know at this point going on you know coming up on 3 years 2 and 1/2 3 years is the more shallow twist rate turns into um you know how how the engraving um or how the projectile is engraved by the riflings um instead of starting off that at a constant 7 and 1/2 twist that would be me as a 16-year-old kid dumping the clutch and chirping the tires um that poor projectile has a really rough launch um cuz you're in you're instantly trying to accelerate >> yep to the final twist rate yeah now um the projectile has one job it just has to go forward um that twist rate has slowed down so much um you know and fast for twist rate um caliber or for calibers exiting about 6° to bore line um we might be starting it at.1° and it's essentially straight yep on a on a longer barrel um that um originally turned into you know and I was motivated shooting competitions with Shawn on precision long gun.

[00:23:08]Be it a gas gun, bull gun, whatever, but it it had a 20 plus inch long barrel.

[00:23:14]And right out of the gate, holy smokes, this thing shoots remarkably better.

[00:23:21]Um You're talking not just talking precision, you're talking actually like the way that rifle torques on recoil. Well, that was That's notice Dispersion was the first thing.

[00:23:31]You know, the A letter report, I look over the computer, it gives me a number.

[00:23:34]We all like numbers.

[00:23:37]Then you really started looking at after firing so many rounds of say 6.5 Creedmoor, the gun's just moving different.

[00:23:45]Um and I knew what I saw, but I knew that it was one of those that I had to go back to the engineers and be like quantify this, put some math to it versus me just thinking I'm a little bit crazy on this.

[00:24:01]Um and the initial torque, which I've been kind of talking to everybody in the form of recoil. Linear recoil, we measure that on a um accelerometer accelerometer or a gauge, what have you.

[00:24:19]>> straight back straight back into your shoulder.

[00:24:21]It's not really influencing that.

[00:24:23]But reticle movement that we're all fighting through in order to regain your sight picture is really the torsional part.

[00:24:32]Um that that optic twisting.

[00:24:36]Um you know, we're in the business of building light guns and big magnums.

[00:24:41]Some of those were torquing enough that magnification rings were moving, that illumination was turning on.

[00:24:47]Um and now the the sight picture is moving so much less.

[00:24:52]Um so at that point I was like, okay, Shawn, you're you're getting one of these.

[00:24:57]Um first one I think was a 24-in 6.5 Creedmoor.

[00:25:01]And then afterwards, after we start putting more and more rounds down range, um started seeing like the these barrels are lasting a lot longer.

[00:25:13]Um and you you don't get to see that right out of the gate. But, um that shallower twist rate, um was sort of selling out with, you know, some help from Army Research Lab, um DMA, Smart Greg. There's some big brains over there that can that know much more about the inside of a barrel um in that regard.

[00:25:38]And um the the amount of stress on that bullet um was also going hand-in-hand with the amount of torque that was going into it.

[00:25:51]Um conventional rifling, you're hitting peak torque at ignition. It's following peak pressure. And then you're riding it out. Um on this, you're hitting peak torque at peak velocity. So, when when the barrel or the projectile is coming out the end of the barrel, that's when you've hit that highest torque number.

[00:26:11]But, the magnitude is also depending on barrel length, you know, 30-40% reduced in in that regard. So, that's what we were seeing.

[00:26:22]Um So, like when you're shooting the long range side, yeah, you want to see where the bullet went. Both, not just to know if you hit it or not, so you can argue with the RO if that was a hit, but really it's the follow-up shots, too, cuz you're not just shooting one shot.

[00:26:34]It's while you're hitting it again, are you going to go to the next target or the next target, change direction? And so, you're trying to learn where the shot. And so, that torque is what we're fighting. It's like, where'd it go? And you know, sometimes that timing of, you know, how's the plate moving? You know, cuz you might if you're coming back down and it's swinging one direction, well, if you're late, you're actually making an input that's wrong cuz it's already swung back one direction and going back the other way. So, you know, the that timing of it and that torque of can I see what the bullet's doing lets you make a better next shot. So, it's not just about the one shot. It's a game of how can you get every round to close to center on the target on every target.

[00:27:10]And so, what can I learn whether it's a hit or a miss? You know, it's not just about, you know, the I say it's probably the one big thing that like you get into the trying to win it is it's not just oh, I hit the target. It's now I hit exactly here. You know, we made corrections that are like 0.05 of a mil.

[00:27:25]Like, hey man, you're like you know, we're just making ever so slight adjustments to fine-tune that that game to clean up more hits in the long run.

[00:27:31]And and it's tough to like people to visualize it. The short version is oh, I took a shot. I didn't even see the deer go down. Like, well, that's that's the gross example on a big magnum hunting gun. But when you get to like, hey, we're shooting, you know, 4-in plates at, you know, 400 yd or 300 yd, it's like well, that's once that bullet smacks, it's moving a lot. And so, if you can catch some movement, and maybe you clip the very edge, well, my next shot, you know, maybe the wind shifted a little, so I might miss the edge versus oh, I saw it hit the edge. Well, now I need to hold a little more into the wind kind of stuff.

[00:28:01]>> Yeah. Well, then for like the practical engagement distance, like if you if you're shooting a thousand or something, you have time to, you know, go ride the recoil and settle back in and then you may not be able to see what's going on on that really intermediate practical engagement distances. That's where this is going to probably make the most meaningful difference, right? Yeah.

[00:28:18]Yeah, I mean, especially with you know, building lighter guns, right?

[00:28:21]Lighter hunting rifles and and stuff like that, being able to see whether it be an animal, if it's a combat weapon system, seeing, you know, Two legged quarter of a Yeah, or threat go down.

[00:28:30]>> Your matches were like, you know, for that's where we really saw it cuz we're walking 30 mi with the gun and having to go shoot a stage. And so, you want a lightweight gun. Yeah, and so, you know, recoil's going to exploit any angles.

[00:28:41]Um, you know, so whether it's linear and then now rotation adding the rotational piece to it. So, if I only have to fight if I have to fight something, I'd rather just have to fight one thing instead of two or three things, right? And so, cutting that down is that was the note first thing I noticed um you know, even down to 5.56 uh shooting it offhand, right? And the torque of the gun when you shoot enough rounds, you get kind of intimate with the with the rifle system whether you're doing everything right or perfect as they'd say, you know, um or you just built certain habits um that have worked out for you, but you shoot these things offhand in 5.56 and you can notice it.

[00:29:13]You know, you may not notice it under load of a bipod or something, but you see it offhand. And that's more often where these short guns in 5.56 are going to be utilized is offhand. You don't have time to hop down and Yeah.

[00:29:24]>> get something prone in perfect position.

[00:29:26]You can you can absolutely you can see it on a shot timer. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That it the numbers don't lie. If you give the target the respect it deserves and you burn that shot as you see it, not on the cadence that you're, you know, programmed for, it shows up on the shot timer.

[00:29:43]When uh when we came down and and saw you guys, um there's an another side of of the AMU from the Vitality side. Mhm.

[00:29:53]And kind of got that first peek behind the the sheets on on higher pressure ammo.

[00:30:00]And that was one of those that um kind of an unintended consequence. We're we're working on this and then also um you know, there's there's higher pressure ammo kind of in development um combining the two and seeing the enhanced uh dis- dispersion with the PXT and you know, steel case ammo that's pushing things to you know, plus three plus four plus 500 ft a second um when Yeah.

[00:30:36]when a projectile is getting the target that much of a head start you're not accustomed to seeing like how we were we had to slow some ammo down to see stay inside the speed limit. Yeah. Um when we could drive 73's at 3250 and we have to throttle them back.

[00:30:55]Um the less that gun is moving, the better off we are. Oh well, yeah. And you know, I noticed it I had to dial some ammo back last year for the gap grind. You know, shooting a gas a.223 gas gun in a PRS match was probably not the smartest choice I've ever made, but uh it worked out for me but I had to dial the ammo back, you know, cuz How'd you feel in the match?

[00:31:13]Uh well, I won the gas gun. Oh yeah, okay. Anyway, this this is fine.

[00:31:16]But uh you know, same thing like you I reached a point where there was targets inside of a few hundred yards even with the minimal recoil of.223 it was it was getting there so fast, you know, um so if there's a con, maybe it's I just need to shoot better.

[00:31:29]You know, or manage recoil better. Um and I really haven't found one. I mean, this you know, the other things I've noticed on this stuff is not just doesn't it doesn't just shoot better. It doesn't just show up in the dispersion. It's not just the recoil.

[00:31:41]It's and I know we'll get into it, but uh it's less sensitive to a lot of things that hand loaders have been chasing for years, you know, like jump. Um it you know, there's there's some longevity pieces to it that are very, very beneficial. If I don't have to change a barrel in an overboard cartridge every 5 600 rounds, I can go maybe double that or whatever it could be. I mean, it's going to change obviously probably with whatever cartridge you use. But from a competitor's standpoint, that gives me a longer that gives me more time to shoot that gun to be more intimate with it and be familiar with it and be trained up on it. And I'm not always constantly trying to work up a load and then now I've got to change a barrel because I just got to where the load really was doing well and now the barrel's shot out. Now I can have a gun that I don't I can potentially have one load or I can shoot factory ammo across you know, three times the barrel barrel life of, you know, what it used to be.

[00:32:27]Uh which is pretty amazing.

[00:32:28]>> So I'm a mouth a mouth of precision guru here, man, but I mean, my understanding is that most barrels die at the throat.

[00:32:36]I mean, for precision dies at the throat, right? Is that Is that fair or is that >> Unless you're an AMU over cleaning them and it dies at the the muzzle.

[00:32:42]>> Right. Right. Right. Right. But but with with the with with barrel construction in this type of novel geometry, the you're [snorts] having to kill more of the middle. It's not as dependent on just the throat for precision or is it just that we're keeping the throat alive longer? I I think it there's a lot of things going on. Um there's some some things that with a borescope, they're going to be hidden in plain >> Right. uh which is is good for us. But to your point um on that constant twist rifling on this barrel, um you know, that chirping tires is the 16-year-old fun kid to this. Um it's wearing everything out at that point. That bullet is slipping um and the the slippage is it may be a very small number, you know, 6 arc. I think we did the math on it and it it was we found it um So, sort like 4 mm, like 1/16 of an inch. So, basically you're saying the bullet is actually not fully locking in the lands quite yet.

[00:33:44]>> it's going forward whether it's turning it out. And it's having to catch up.

[00:33:49]Yeah. Well, when we um take that portion out of it and it can just go forward, there's so much less friction that's happening as. Now the friction's going to happen. But instead of it being an instantaneous thing right at the throat now we're spreading it over, we're energizing over a much greater portion of the barrel.

[00:34:10]So, um you know, we've seen um and I like to work in extremes. So, you know, one of the tests that we ended up doing was >> Yeah.

[00:34:20]um 7 back country. Okay. Um that was one where we did a a really aggressive test.

[00:34:28]Like it was 10 shots a minute um for 200 rounds seconds. So basically a PRS match, a good PRS match every 20 minutes.

[00:34:40]And you know, mid barrel is hitting 500 some odd degrees and we cool it down shoot it for dispersion and then wash and repeat.

[00:34:52]We did that on conventional barrel that we built and a PXT barrel that we built.

[00:34:59]at 2500 rounds on the conventional a third of the projectiles starting to come hard.

[00:35:06]Like it's that is definitely a sign of end of life.

[00:35:12]We just just did a video that'll is you know, searchable on the worldwide webs where we pushed that over the PXT barrel over 5000 rounds.

[00:35:26]So double the barrel life, not a single projectile blew, it had less less velocity loss from barrel wear at 5000 than the conventional one did at 2500.

[00:35:38]So so you know, depending on barrel life, it may be it may be a 100% improvement in in its longevity.

[00:35:49]This is there's like a there's a renaissance period right now with small arms tech. There's a lot of cool stuff happening. But this is like this is a really exciting time to be in the small arms game just the advancements in and ammunition like the the the requests for lethality and for improvement in performance.

[00:36:06]The leaps that are happening now are not they're not incremental. You know, we're not we're not making something 5% better. You're talking about you know, perhaps in this instance that at least for that particular example it might be 100% improvement which is a a leap. That's not a you know, And it's funny that you bring up the 7 back country because for the last year and a half or 2 years since I've been trying to like say as much as I can without getting in trouble, you know, not just with some of the barrel tech, but also some of the ammunitions stuff that we've been tracking, the weapons that we're building preemptively for the new ammunition that's coming.

[00:36:41]The seven the seven back country was a safe way to try to talk to the like the consumer market about what new case technology looks like out of the bag, right? That's open source. And so I And so I can just I always would point like go look at the seven back country and look at that kind of case technology, the pressures that they're loading to a If they're selling that If they're selling ammunition loaded to that pressure to the commercial market, you can bet it's way under yield of what that case can do, right? They're being very conservative. So if you All you have to do is use a little bit of imagination to what it can do, you know, if if you wanted to push it. Wait. That The cat's out of the bag and the train has left the station. Like high pressure, high velocity ammo is coming.

[00:37:24]It is the future. It's uh And I would imagine that that the companies that aren't necessarily thinking about that are going to be at a disadvantage to the companies that have been working on it for a little while.

[00:37:38]And so I mean that that performance you're seeing out of the new stuff and the guns built, you know, to actually handle it um It's pretty neat. Like And I don't I don't I know this I know this for a fact cuz we've tested we The The people sitting at this table have tested it to failure.

[00:37:56]Um legacy and conventional barrel and weapon making uh techniques or or our theories or ideas are not going to survive this ammo, at least not for very long. No, it it'll be adequate, but not excel adequate >> Not the performance we like. I mean, like for everything from dispersion to longevity to endurance to catastrophic issues to everything else. I mean like there's it's your gun will probably shoot it for a little while. Yeah. Yeah, or there's a Yeah, but not very Or or there's a limit, you know, and that's that's the thing I think is unlocking potential with like with the PXT. I mean seeing it over time what we started with on the deadening of the recoil. Okay, well, if we have that and we crank the velocity up, what does that mean? And what's like what's that natural evolution and uh and and where can that go with it?

[00:38:49]Um You know, cuz then it's like, well, now we're buying back capacity to do more, you know, versus redlining the engine.

[00:38:55]We're adding more cylinders to the engine. Like, oh, now I can go even even more crazy with it.

[00:38:59]Yeah. Now, this like 5.56 specifically I don't think I've shot a match in 5.56 in the last 2 years that the cases were made out of bricks.

[00:39:11]What?

[00:39:13]It's just >> I feel that. It's just What high pressure's like? Yeah, once once you once you've cracked it open, you don't want to go back. Um there, you know, obviously there's the recoil disadvantages potentially when you get bigger, but man, the the stuff you the stuff we're able to do with a you know, a.223 bullet going down range is um is pretty wild with high pressure both on the terminal effect and and in the competition space and then you scale that up to a 6 mm, you know, a 6.5 or.338,.375, whatever the sky's the limit. Your 10 and 1/2 foot barrels. No.

[00:39:46]Um it's pretty wild what we can do and like the capability whether it be a lethality or competition or just It's a combination of.

[00:39:53]>> The combination of. Our our 18-in barrel brass case load was our steel case 11 and 1/2 in velocity. Yeah.

[00:40:04]So, do do you want a combination that wants some more performance but some less barrel?

[00:40:11]Or the same performance and none of the barrels?

[00:40:16]Yeah, but the I'm saying, man. Is this I guess there's some applications where you want to try to get as much performance as possible and then so you go there. But if you're getting adequate velocity out of a much shorter gun, then for at least the the professional in user that is pretty attractive. I would imagine that's going to drive everything from even like the way optics are designed. You know, whenever you have Well, if the guns are shorter guns are shorter, everything is getting kind of shorter, you know, or like that gun that was a you know, a saltier carbine can every bit perform as a wrecky rifle now, you know, cuz you're getting that velocity. I mean, it's it's changing it's changing just the overall expectation and and role of a gun. Now you have a truly And those are tough And all of that in a very pretty short package. We saw that in 300 blackout, which was insane.

[00:41:06]Nobody would ever would think 300 blackout could do that, but it damn sure can.

[00:41:10]I mean, man, there might be some 300 blackouts out there that could win a match.

[00:41:13]>> [laughter] >> So 300 blackout for me, I I didn't even own one.

[00:41:20]It was of no cool factor for me.

[00:41:24]Right there there was one sad you know the need to clear house. Where we live.

[00:41:30]We live in the woods. If something's going to be in the house, it's going to be a grizzly.

[00:41:33]Blackout ain't going to cover that.

[00:41:34]Well, we need to bring something bigger.

[00:41:36]But but when we were working with you guys and I 8-in blackout was doing Like this little guy?

[00:41:45]Uh just that little guy. Yeah, it's all about that little guy. Um you know, factory ammo was 2,000 per sec.

[00:41:52]And you know we went [snorts] to a high pressure version of that exact same projectile. That was 2450.

[00:42:03]And like holy smokes. Now, what that changes trajectory-wise, you know, lethality It plus 120 120 m or something like that from equal impact velocity.

[00:42:18]But what that changed the trajectory was huge.

[00:42:22]Foldovers on a blackout are challenging at distance.

[00:42:26]>> So a height of human height, not oh hold a little higher. It's like no hold two humans high. It it does. And this this changed that Yep. a lot. And a lot went into just making you know, this little guy do things that I think were out of the ordinary.

[00:42:45]For me from a precision rifle standpoint, if it's not accurate, I don't really care. You you're it is a task to do, not a task to like that I love to pursue.

[00:42:56]And um you guys had some very interesting parameters. It was like it's going to be this ammo and it has to do these things.

[00:43:07]I'm like, okay. Well, let's take out a bunch of variables and um you know, Scott and I went back and forth. I think you and I did as well on different twist rates. Um you know, took took my um long time retired PRS gun and took a bandsaw to the forends. Uh so it's like this ugly little bastard child that Put a little stubby in there.

[00:43:34]>> Yeah, put an 8-in long barrel into the front end of that >> sense.

[00:43:40]>> [snorts] >> And um we're shooting that for dispersion.

[00:43:46]Um and then it's like, hey Scott, this is this is what I'm seeing.

[00:43:50]And I didn't believe it until I saw it. You know, it was uh It was wild uh to see that. And it at a factory ammo nonetheless um which was amazing. Um supers, subs, you you basically everything.

[00:44:07]Um then well, almost everything till you wanted to put in something that was way bigger than that.

[00:44:12]>> Oh, yeah. I mean, we played with a Yeah, we played with a lot of you know, various twist rates and different pressures and played around with some stuff and then you know, eventually got some some ARs put together and Mike and I were shooting them and it was like Yeah, yeah. When you sub or sub sub subsonic rounds or sub MOA out of a 30 cal that's like that's something else.

[00:44:33]And to that That's me. Your your dispersion in a gas gun was mimicking my dispersion in a What was it 308?

[00:44:43]>> No, it was it was same same. I was like, all right. I guess somebody can build all right ARs. There I mean Yeah, so so you're saying we built a sub MOA 100 m 300 blackout, probably the world's most accurate blackout.

[00:44:55]I I mean I I don't know I don't personally know of anything that would out shoot it. I I I've been I've been a you know, rifle manufacturer for you know, 13 13 years now. I've I've never been a I've never been a fan of the blackout because I've I've always thought it was kind of done done wrong. It was very First of all, it's a very misunderstood cartridge. You know, it's a I think it's one of the most misunderstood cartridges.

[00:45:21]But what we were able to achieve not just on mechanical reliability, just on operational envelope from everything from high pressure, supers, subs and then being able to jam all that stuff into a mag randomly and the gun just eats up the need for mechanical adjustment. Like no no gas blocks, no no the gun just eats. It's you know, whatever.

[00:45:43]And one of the dirtiest cartridges probably known to man with unburnt propellants. Yeah, and the the fact that it just kept chewing, but the precision on that the precision on that rifle with those those barrels and that that 300 blackout we developed uh it it opened my eyes to like the the this thing has a ginormous, you know, use case scenario. Everything from, you know, confined space, you know, PDW to even, you know, using as a medium range real wrecky type of rifle with the right kind of setup.

[00:46:16]It like in my mind like it it it it's blown that that that capability up well more than it ever has in the last, you know, but 15 years of its inception.

[00:46:30]and the whisper always JD was doing the work.

[00:46:36]No, like yeah, it was like 2010-ish, plus or minus a couple years. And when AAC had blackouts, hand loading it, you know, in the chop down going to Harbor Freight chop saws and forming the brass and six brass and forming it and then, you know, here we are now to the point where that was where things started and and that and you know, with Proof and Greg and the guys that are doing everything the awesome stuff there with, you know, with the PXT, we're able to now push the pressures and and velocities well above what we even played with, right? And we got to experience that some of that recently.

[00:47:06]You know how hard it is to You made a wrecky comment, right?

[00:47:09]You know, essentially a 300 blackout wrecky.

[00:47:12]Better start looking at different glass.

[00:47:14]Yeah, well we got to look at, you know, you start seeing some of these more compact two two to 10s and things like that they're out. Um or, you know, even one to 10. Or there's like little EOTechs or little mini EOTechs and stuff. Three nines and the four four to 12 EOTechs and then but you've you've you've got a rifle now platform that's you can build it shorter than 8 in right? Uh with the right ammo.

[00:47:33]But we're reaching a point where we now have the precision from a cartridge that's typically not been known for that. And I can, you know, if I were a law enforcement officer or military personnel, you know, going into a house, but I had to dictate like, do I take two guns or do I have to have more uh overwatch to to cover a distance outside the house um just because I don't have the platform that can reach out and touch, you know, the distance that I need. And now going in the house maybe with some subs but switch over a magazine, put in some you know, some some higher velocity supers and now I've got three, four, 500 m stand offs that I didn't have before. I had to have, you know, Ranger over watch or something, right? And so the lethality changes of just something as simple as what this started with, you know, combining with high pressure, the PXT, you know, a gas gun company.

[00:48:23]Um and it just opens up the potential. But I mean so a gas gun company that's making >> [snorts] >> fighting rifles, you know, confined space for PDW rifles then pairing up with the with a truly a precision company, you know, and I think y'all's y'all's pursuit of the PXT and stuff was was all like the the precision side which which turns out to have kind of really amazing, maybe I don't even know, unintended, you know, uh For sure.

[00:48:51]benefits you like the like the fighting gun side on the I said on on the longevity on, you know, a lot of the other things that slide from. Everyone knows that proof barrels precise. Like that that there's no debate about that.

[00:49:01]Y'all have earned y'all's reputation over years and years of years of making precise barrels.

[00:49:05]To me, you know, I'm I'm not a precision guy. I'm more of an endurance guy. To me like that what's super impressive about the PXT is the endurance aspect of it.

[00:49:13]You know, the You know, on that um you know, we had that conversation internally. It was like well what's most most important?

[00:49:23]Uh really depends on the audience.

[00:49:25]Right. Um if it was um you know, talking to the guys from your old work, you guys can change barrels pretty frequently if you need to. Uh you made a comment Resource Unlimited. Yeah, I mean So longevity wasn't like the biggest Yeah.

[00:49:44]the pursuit of winning.

[00:49:46]So >> Yeah, I mean I can't In that world I I I could not have a gun that failed me.

[00:49:50]Like I need to be the weakest link.

[00:49:52]Never want to what you know in the endurance piece, the precision piece, the ammunition piece, all of it above.

[00:49:57]Um I the system had to be all working in in in tandem together. And I needed to be the weakest link. I never wanted to be able to blame my gear. So, we would swap stuff out earlier than than the average person, you know. The but then you talk to, you know, Mil-Gov LE um the longevity sit but they got kind of hits you in the bottom line of you know, how long is that going to be in a in service?

[00:50:24]Um yeah, when do we have to allocate funds to rebuild?

[00:50:29]Um if somebody's on deployment, is it going to get through that entire deployment um without, you know, pulling it out of service?

[00:50:37]Um or do you change a barrel pre-deployment so you don't have to deal with that?

[00:50:43]Um the logistics chain of of maintenance on firearms is pretty substantial um depending on the end user group. So, the precision was was where it affected and pulled on my heartstrings the most, but the longevity is showing up as a bigger portion for some customers.

[00:51:07]Um Well, I mean, I think it's ultimately, I mean, we we talk about it for the stuff that we build. Like, we're competing with Ferraris and they're, you know, and we're asking for the durability of a pickup truck. And so, now as you put it to the you know, but we're willing to take the penalty of, you know, nobody expects like a race car to go down the street every day for 100,000 mi, you know, it's rebuilt after every race and like we've built guns just for one match and throw it away afterwards and like rebuild to the next thing. You know, but that was a willingness willing to do.

[00:51:37]But now as new cartridges, you know, let alone existing 5.56 and high pressure and these new capabilities, like they can't afford a race car, but they want the performance. And so now I think that's where the the real key of it is that you're getting the race car performance, but now we're finding ways whether it between the gun, the barrel, the tech to make that pickup truck durability to go with it. And that's kind of the really cool thing is like it's it's an becoming more an everyman capability um versus just something that maybe is a specialized unit or application.

[00:52:10]No, it's when I met Mike, um you know, or when we just first started talking, his rule number one that that it must work. Like uh there's my some colorful language in there to to to pound it home, but like I emphasize Yeah, yeah.

[00:52:25]It it has to work, right? And so for so many years or decades or who knows like people didn't court the correlation of precision and a duty rifle just wasn't there, right? And now we have breached where especially in the last, you know, 2 years where we're building guns that are combat proven, you know, going out in the law LE hands, things like that. And just the civilians who protect their life or shoot a match.

[00:52:52]That you can get a factory gun that we used to have to build ourselves out of all the parts available to us or have custom things made. And we can provide a factory rifle that's affordable.

[00:53:03]Um that that can rival the stuff that we built years ago. And it's not We don't have to look back and go, "Well, they don't build them like that anymore." No, you know, we were beyond that.

[00:53:12]You're not building them like us. You know, that that is almost almost to where we're at and and or where maybe that's where we are. That's where the you know, we lose a little bit of humility there and have some ego, but like that's that's where this is going.

[00:53:22]And and if, you know, if we're not on the front of it, then we're going to be at a disadvantage. You nailed it earlier. It's the the ammunition, the barrel here is doing it, the way, you know, you've beat into everybody to assemble the rifles. Um that's what's got us here and we're three precision nerds and you're a the eccentric builder of it has to work.

[00:53:43]And now let's put it together and now we make guns that protect lives and win matches and it's a factory gun. You don't have to do anything custom to it. Then and then to me it's rewarding that a lot of these projects that we've all worked on together, they have been they have been subjected to again the most rigorous testing in the world. Over and over over and over again and and not a sample size of one.

[00:54:05]You know, you're talking about a meaningful sample size so that true data can be collected and then you have in the user evals and then you have laboratory tests and you know, and and this isn't You know, like we we both both entities Proof and Sons work closely with ARL. You know, we we have cooperative research development agreements with the army. You know, the like this is this isn't a couple of dudes in their basement, you know, like well, you know, and they the the the you have to be able to replicate, measure, quantify it and and and repeat you know, or you don't have anything, you know, and and and the fact that we're sitting here finally talking about it means that I guess people don't realize how much went into this, how much how many years or hours or The years to bring this to maturity Yeah, is tremendous. And also and then just specifically to Proof, that's easy you guys, the again you said the rounds, the time I would imagine that if for the stuff that we've done that's been pretty cool, though, the the amount of failed attempts though at at at at holding in perfection as far as I can for us people don't see all of the stuff that that that you know, you destroy along the way to kind of like to kind of get there to something that you're ready to bring to market and uh it's it's expensive, it's time-consuming and you you have to have a almost an obsessive passion to want to do something better because you get discouraged if you if you >> Well, well, yeah, if you attempt people quit or like you know, the the the budget's not there or you're not willing to, you know, you're not willing to for us for for Mark one anyways, we were I was willing to bet the farm on it. You know, like, you know, I was literally you know, uh to to to to kind of get it there and there's a lot of rapid failures which you learn very quickly.

[00:55:54]But so when I I know that there are I I've seen a lot of people talking about, you know, some other different kind of novel barrel tech or other things that people may be working on and I and I know I I know I know for fact that some at least some of the stuff I've seen uh has not gone through this this level of testing and evaluation total testing and evaluation development and validation.

[00:56:23]Validation to you you know, so anyways, if we're going to stake our reputations on something, it's it's cuz it's there. It's proven. You know, I it it it hurt my soul when we had a a small pallet of of Mark one's show up at the shop with the intent these are going to be deadlined when we're done. You know, we put every single one um chamber bore obstruction and that was just to evaluate the bolt and extensions.

[00:56:59]>> Yeah. And we're going to put a high-speed camera on it and Listen to a million million frames a second. Yeah, I mean we detuned to to get the, you know, uh gazillion field of view where it needs to be, but you know, torch that thing off and that that rifle had a um weapon life of one round. That was to ensure that end user is going to be in a good position if the one in, you know, 10 zillion uh opportunity happens to where you get a a true chamber board obstruction and they all were varying degrees of successful.

[00:57:42]Uh you know, it was like quite quite good to So I mean you yes, you were going to transition to a different gun, but you almost don't know anything happened. Yeah. Um so that was the level of um investment that you guys were willing to do in just that split second amount of time um to make something better than the rest and know the answer uh of the test before the test. Yeah, you well, you know, you you learn a lot when you blow [ __ ] up.

[00:58:18]Like but I've got some signatures on the wall of well, that that went poorly. Um and we learned a lot. Yeah, but but but that's just it. I mean, like it's it's not just you know, the performance of it. It's the total It's the Can this rifle be fielded safely and under um catastrophic you know, events, you know, and and does the end user walk away and safe? The consideration that goes into the design of these things is more than I think most most people truly consider. And then, you know, willing to blow up a bunch of >> [laughter] >> very semi very semi expensive rifles, but you know It's How much is your Yeah, we're you know Yeah.

[00:59:03]>> This stuff doesn't come cheap, man.

[00:59:05]Right. No, and uh you know How much is your reputation worth? How much is the end user's fingers and eyes worth? You know, like these are Let's let's go blow some more up just just to make sure.

[00:59:15]You might end up and it does happen unfortunately, but um you know, you know, that even down whether it's a board obstruction or just 300 blackout makes its way into 5.56 gun and then we've seen what those can do. Uh just to something as simple as that. It doesn't necessarily have to be a typical I fell in the sand and the mud clogged it up and had to shoot shot or you know, something else. But it's been pretty cool to learn along the way. I remember getting phone calls from Greg and going back and forth and visits and everything else and it's like learn something new today, whether it was good or you know, everything was good. You know, even if it was a failure, it was good. And that was super cool to see cuz that's what wakes you up at 3:00 a.m. going I got a lot of new things and that's how you make it even better and it took years to do it. Tens of thousands of rounds, hundreds and that or thousands of barrels at this point like Oh man, we're up to a number. It's It's more than one.

[01:00:03]It's more than one. It's a big number.

[01:00:05]Yeah. Um you know, these the the tech that's going under the barrels.

[01:00:11]I think as I said before like I don't care about a unicorn.

[01:00:14]I I don't want to build an example one and this has to be manufacturable, sustainable, get it out to end users and the masses.

[01:00:26]Um you know, at this point there's 10,000 of these things that are already built before the launch date. And scalable, too, right?

[01:00:37]>> And yeah, it's cartridge size is built.

[01:00:40]We've done it from Um tested evaluated it from.22 rimfire, which also really cool, all the way to.50 BMG.

[01:00:51]Um and standard pressure ammo from short action to long action to big action and then high pressure stuff from.556 blackout, ARC, Creedmoor, uh.338 Norma. I mean, let's refrain from those cuz older feels that from here.

[01:01:11]That's why I'm slow in the mornings.

[01:01:13]Mentally. Um Well, now you're not getting torque. Yeah, there you go.

[01:01:16]Yeah.

[01:01:17]Um So, yeah, it's scalable from cartridge, it's scalable from capacity Um and you know some of the stuff that we've been putting a lot of time into chasing you guys that we actually never really hit on yet and that was 416 stainless Cool.

[01:01:41]That's what the Precision Rifle World knows but the pursuit of the super alloys Yeah. the armods the GMB 200s the the nitride the Chrome the Chrome replacement being able to manufacture those barrels with this tech and combine all of the things into one quote unquote super barrel the Uber barrel Mhm. is I don't even know how long those barrels are going to last. That's what I was going to hint at whatever I was saying where we're in a race against Barry where it's just how fast the ammo is developing but yeah we're we're way way way way trying World War II era barrel technologies and then you start getting into these some of us are. Yeah some of us are. Oh yeah right. So we start getting into your these new like super alloys like your armods you said your GMBs So you're making a massive and legitimate material improvement and then you're making a massive and legitimate geometry and like you know form improvement and then what we're doing with different platings and coating technology or the combination of a few while you're working on some stuff there and you start putting that stuff together you don't have an incrementally better product you have like you you've made a leap in what the expectation was or what the if someone would have told us what we were able to achieve today if If would have told me that two or three years ago, or even four years ago, like I would I would have said that was impossible.

[01:03:21]Anybody would have said that was impossible. The speed at which this stuff was moving is is crazy. And the more we learn, the the the more we learn, and it compounds.

[01:03:29]This is it's it's been a really fun ride to to work with you on this stuff, man.

[01:03:34]The the cooperation, um you know, we're we're not dirt track racing right now.

[01:03:41]This is F1s. Um the whole engineering team from the ammo side, the um you know, the government lab standpoint, um the you know, rifle manufacturer, barrel manufacturer, the user feedback, >> end user feedback, um the uh the steel manufacturers, um all of those things are playing into one full ecosystem to build like a next generation Ferrari. It's >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It is all included, kitchen sink. It's all there. It's the V20 in a Ferrari. It's the right end, yeah. I mean, we've got precise guns with with fast ammo, reliable, awesome sound suppression, flash suppression. Uh we've got a lot of great partners across the industry, you know, from from optic stuff to accessories on the gun to the suppressors to the ammunition to you know, the barrels that are manufactured.

[01:04:40]And then Yeah, I mean, recoil reduction, Well, there and and all those things, you know, you the use that triangle, like if I want to increase speed, well, then equal and opposite reaction, I'll probably create more recoil, um more throat erosion to and then of heat, right? So, like we have to start mitigating heat uh both in the in the barrel itself and the gun and you know, how the gun how long can you hold onto the gun, um as well as the suppressor, you know, as if it precision world, you don't mirage is a is is your enemy coming off the barrel.

[01:05:08]Um but also like are we getting more gas out of Is it more flash because the of the new powders or whatever maybe we may be approaching. And so it's it's been a an awesome ride to kind of figures a lot of this stuff out with our friends in the industry, you know, that when I was just you know, shooting and teaching for a living, um that's how I met you guys. You guys are all my friends in the industry and then to have to finally bring that all together um to create products together has been freaking wild. Um we started in the basement or the garage, you know, and look at us now.

[01:05:42]That's that's kind of where we're at, you know, making the joke that we you know, we stopped doing this in the basement. We might have started in the basement, but we're we've definitely upgraded.

[01:05:49]>> We we resemble that remark.

[01:05:51]>> our but that's been our position, you know, that's how we thing is shooting like if I'm standing, but I can go prone and make a more precise shot, why would I still stand? I'm upgrading my position all times and that's whether you're in a firefight or competition or in life, you know, we probably should strive to upgrade our position and that's why we're all fanatics and can't sleep at night. Yeah.

[01:06:10]Now there's there's a there's a lot and outside of stealth I'm not going to give myself any of the credit, but like there's some really smart people and some really driven people, you know, working on on bringing this next gen stuff to life and like I said in the metallurgical side of it, working with the mills, the metallurgist that developed the raw material all the way down to you know, reticles in development to track the new you know, or whatever perform with the new kind of it's just a across the across the spectrum to where when this thing is finally is ready to go, it's it's it's it's turnkey, it's ready, it's happening in scary fast.

[01:06:47]>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't think people realize how fast it is and what is coming capability like we know, but I don't think most people understand like we're on that generation of we're putting powder down the barrel and jamming a bullet over it to a cartridge. We're kind of in that generation of leap even though it's going to look similar, but just what you can do and all the other things like it's so hyper optimized it's just like you're going to take an M4 from 1990 and you're going to take an M4 from 2030, you know, and you look at the two like that is like flintlock compared to an M16, right? Like it's it's going to be quite a bit different. When you combine all these things together, this is this is a a generational leap not unlike, you know, the mid-1800s when some dude showed up with this cool new thing called smokeless >> Yeah, or the repeater.

[01:07:38]Yeah, and well, what's up?

[01:07:40]Yeah, and and it's like, okay, the only people that are still shooting that old tech were fanatics that were into black powder or they were poor. Now, it's like, well, kind of like shooting if you're not shooting a high-pressure steel case and really, you know, super precise, reliable rifle, like you're already behind the curve.

[01:08:06]What's the quote, uh, only accurate rifles are interesting?

[01:08:09]Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:10]Um, but now we have accurate and precise and fast and reliable.

[01:08:17]Um, mitigate heat. Yeah, they can mitigate heat and integrate all the explosion resist. Anywhere in the world and needs to have fast capabilities and then that kind of leads into we didn't do this just by our in our own echo chamber, right? Like um, you know, we all have our own insights and we we've conversed that, you know, over the years of like I got this idea, let's try it and we will try it. We also put the guns in hands of you know, everyone across the spectrum of of capability from like, hey, person that's really never been been shooting guns, just put it in your hand, tell me what you think. That feedback all the way to the professional shooter, the or maybe the professional end user, law enforcement, wherever and you give that feedback.

[01:08:53]>> Yeah, at this point legitimately I can say it's globally. Globally, you know, we're getting that feedback from every every entity on the client that we're, you know legally allowed to talk to a rifle. Yeah, I mean and so you're this this isn't the like everyone likes their their mom's cooking. This this is a little bit more objective than that or I should say the the the sample size of sample size is huge non-deniable.

[01:09:20]Yeah, we got I mean we're all honest with each other enough to know if we have a product that's not cutting up to snuff. Like we we tell each other, you know, and so like if I did something for Greg, he's like that didn't cut it. Let's try it again, you know, or it wasn't good enough even though it was it went better than expected. You just be find out like we can do better, you know, and that's been a pretty cool journey with all this and being part of it with Bruce has been pretty awesome especially kind of how we all linked up with Sons and stuff and just oddly enough how you know just running your mouth and being friends with people and network >> Don't be an [ __ ] Yeah, don't burn a bridge, right? And so like I said, you know, Mike Mike gave me my opportunity in an industry and I just happen to know some cool people and the cool people I knew knew some more cool people. Well, I don't know if you're that cool, but Yeah, I mean and biggest can be choosers. Yeah, but it's it's it's been amazing. End users are extremely happy across the board whether it's our gun or with your barrel um your barrel in your own guns or your barrel in somebody else's guns. I mean like they the the end users are seeing the performance whether it be me on a match, you know, living the dream with 73s at Mark Jesus.

[01:10:28]Um you know, and then I'm going to download them to people laughing at me and be like I brought a pea shooter to a big boy match apparently and I'll stand by, but Hold tight. What are you shooting? That's 223. You know, is that is that 22 arc? Is that you know, 22 Creed? No, that's a that's a 223, baby.

[01:10:44]Here you go. Don't reload that. That's a You know, so that's where we're at and man, the technology they're pushing from from across this is is pretty wild and I think you know, you made a comment up to 4 500 we we've seen things that are much higher than that on velocity. I've seen 300 blackout out of an 8-in gun and the Garmin said a three on the front.

[01:11:07]>> Yeah. Like yeah, more to follow.

[01:11:08]Exactly, more of that. I think I think that's a good segue for uh like where where is it going? I mean we've been I'm over an hour already, believe it or not. Um but more to follow, you know, I know we're talking about all this cool stuff, but everybody's going to know when can we get it, right? Yeah. So we I mean we're what's exciting, more to come from us.

[01:11:26]We don't have anything that I think we want to show for this, but uh I think this is a good tease, you know, maybe some stuff sitting here and you know, more to come very soon. True. When when will when will these be available for retail purchase and when and what calibers and kind of what what's the deal launch for this, dude? So by the time this airs it's already out.

[01:11:50]It's out. It's they're already shipping right now. Um yeah.

[01:11:54]Complete bolt action rifles from us are already in the mail. Um barrels are already in the mail. Um headed to dealers, distributors, OEMs like yourself. I mean obviously you guys seen this. You've gotten a sneak behind the curtains way way way early in the game.

[01:12:11]Yeah. But um you know, 556 ARC I mean I hate to say what's available today because tomorrow it'll be different, but um but our entire lineup will ultimately be available. Um and at some degree I would be really surprised if um conventional rifling stays you know as predominant if this is an option.

[01:12:38]This is a this is a better way to skin the cat.

[01:12:41]Yeah, I've been trying to hint this for a long time. I mean I again I got to be careful. We all have you know, I want to protect your intellectual property and all the stuff that you've been working on and some of the other partners and stuff that we have. I've been trying I've been kind of trying to hint for a while that uh the these guns are going to look a lot different tomorrow than they do than they did yesterday.

[01:13:05]And I don't think that that people realize that gap is pretty short. But like what's coming is I mean as I said, the train has left the station. Like it's it's here, you know.

[01:13:14]Dude, this has been a blast, man. Greg, thank you for everything, all the hard work, man. We've uh It's been It's been a fun ride. Yeah, the reason why I have sleepless nights that got us to this point. I think more to come.

[01:13:27]Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:13:30]Yeah, we got We just started, man. Yeah, so That's been the hardest thing, right? Is to to keep it quiet.

[01:13:36]You get so excited about the products you're working on.

[01:13:39]Um whether they're like super successful or they're you're still still building them out to be there and uh you just want to tell people and that's that's been the hardest thing for me is is keeping >> [laughter] >> I'll be like, "Hey, I got this thing."

[01:13:51]And like He's only talking about my trees. Right now he said it again. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm shooting all kinds of stuff, but uh those are my little babies right now. Um and they work.

[01:14:03]So, no, I I can't thank you enough um you know, making the trip down here, talk to you guys about this.

[01:14:11]Um get to hang out with my friends. Like that's that's a good day for me. That's really good cool part about the industry is um you know, I I when I left AMU, I didn't think I'd have job satisfaction. You know, doing that for so long. And so, coming out here, being able to do a job that's exciting and fun. Um and stressful and you're learning and you're There's never a day that goes by you don't learn something. And I do it with friends.

[01:14:35]That's pretty awesome. Yeah, and you know, hopefully our products kill terrorists.

[01:14:44]All right, sure don't tell. Yeah, I mean, we well, we've some stuff recently in the LE world um for our products, you know, and and with the collaboration with with Greg and the guys at Krieg uh and people at Krieg, you know, we're going to continue to see that, I think, out there. Um and we're going to see it winning matches. I mean, we all Sorry, we've been winning matches now.

[01:15:03]Yeah, yeah, I was going to say. There's There's actually been a lot of matches for a stealth stealth gun, yeah.

[01:15:10]A long period of time.

[01:15:12]Yeah, I mean, I've won a few um and it's It's been pretty cool to But again, you know, I'm like They're like, "Ah, what are you shooting?" And I'm like, "Ah, it's a gun." This is a We're getting ammo, but the powder and the bullet and the case, you know, they'll reload it.

[01:15:26]You know, oh yeah, just throw that in the trash. Don't put it in the brass bucket. Yeah, kind of thing. And it's But it's been awesome.

[01:15:31]>> Oh, and you can use a magnet, by the way. Oh, yeah, I got to use the cup.

[01:15:34]It's lighter, it's cheaper manufactured.

[01:15:36]There's a lot of cool stuff there.

[01:15:39]All right, Mel. We'll We'll stay tuned.

[01:15:41]It's a It's about to get pretty exciting.

[01:15:44]More to follow. More to follow, man.

[01:15:47]I just think very much.