Episode 346 - ANNE BOLEYN: Reputation, Revolution, Religion with Martha Tatarnic

Añadido: 2026-05-24

[00:00:00]Welcome to Talking Tudors, Martha. How are you?

[00:00:04]I am great. Thank you so much, Natalie.

[00:00:06]It's lovely to be with you. Oh, it's so lovely to have you on the show. Lovely to be talking, of course, about one of our favorite women from history, Anne Boleyn. But before we do that, would you mind just saying hello to all our listeners and viewers and just telling us a little bit about you and your background?

[00:00:22]Yeah, well, I am a writer. I have published a couple of books, although this is my first foray into the world of the Tudors. I am also an Anglican priest in the Anglican Church of Canada. I have been ordained for almost 22 years, and I lead a large urban church in Niagara, Ontario, Canada.

[00:00:47]Oh, that's wonderful. And and yes, we're here to talk about your book, but before we talk about exactly what inspired that project, I'd love for you just to tell us when and why you first became interested in the life and the story of Anne Boleyn.

[00:01:01]Well, I think parts of my story will sound familiar to a lot of your listeners and guests, but then I think I have kind of a distinct edge to my story, as well. So, I was introduced to Anne Boleyn through the movie Anne of the Thousand Days. My mom introduced me to that movie, and um and I remember uh feeling very fascinated by it, but I think as many of us do when we're introduced to Anne Boleyn, I was left with the sense that there was more I wanted to know, that I had more questions than answers about uh her rise and fall. Um but it was really when I was in seminary as a young woman, I was in my early 20s, I had a lot of moments of wondering whether I was really in the right place, doing the right thing whether I fit in with this world, and I have to chalk it up to just gut instinct. I found myself gravitating toward the Tudor history section of the Trinity College library where I was attending seminary, and finding myself reading about Anne Boleyn. And what jumped off the pages for me then was that she was um not just a kind of a byproduct of the English Reformation, but really had her fingerprints smudged all across how the Church of England Church of England was shaped in the English Reformation.

[00:02:39]And I found that enormously validating as a young woman contemplating leadership in this church to know that women had such a heavy hand in forming the church and uh and the Christian faith, as well.

[00:02:57]Yeah, I love I love how people come to Anne's story through so many different paths and avenues, and that different aspects of Anne and her story appeal to people. I really enjoy hearing about, you know, what it is exactly that sparked an interest in in you. So, that's really interesting. And and of course, you have to introduce us to your new book. So, Anne Boleyn, Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and The Queen Who Changed History. So, of course, there are lots of books written about Anne Boleyn, you know, I penned one myself.

[00:03:29]So, what was it What exactly was it that sort of sparked your interest in in writing this book? Was there any sort of moment that you can recall where you thought, "You know what? I'm going to do this. I'm going to tell Anne's story."

[00:03:42]Yeah, it was a very specific moment. It was a conversation with my brother. Um over the course of being an Anglican priest, I do climb onto my soapbox whenever possible and I will tell people that, you know, although the origin story of the Anglican Church is often told as being started because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce, I will tell people, "Actually, our origin story would be better framed as saying that it was started because the woman that he was interested in marrying was a reformer." And that's a pretty different kind of origin story. So, I say this all the time. It's regularly greeted with surprise from people in my congregations, from other Anglicans, from other Anglican leaders. This is not a well-known part of our history.

[00:04:35]But it was uh over the card table with my brother um uh Christmas holidays when I climbed on that soapbox with him and he was actually interested in what I had to say. Now, my brother is not a churchgoer um and he's also not routinely interested in my ideas.

[00:04:59]Uh but he was genuinely interested in what I had to say about Anne Boleyn.

[00:05:06]And his reply to that was, "Where is that book? I want to read that book."

[00:05:11]I've He said like I've literally never heard that before.

[00:05:15]So, that got me thinking. Um now, the thing is is that I don't need to write the untold history of Anne Boleyn. That history has been told. Her impact on the Reformation is well documented and historians have certainly um spoken up about her impact and influence in the English Reformation.

[00:05:40]Um so the it didn't quite feel like that was the book that I needed to write. But it was um an essay that I read by a woman named Laura Saxton called The Unblemished Concubine, where she compared representations of Anne Boleyn in fiction and nonfiction sources in the early 21st century. And she really argued that even when you're writing nonfictional representations of Anne Boleyn's life, you still bring a particular filter to that representation of Anne.

[00:06:21]And [gasps] so, it really got me thinking, okay, well, what if I'm just super upfront about my personal filter?

[00:06:29]Like, what if I just put myself into the conversation about Anne Boleyn's history? And rather than just trying to claim her impact on the Reformation, what if I claim that impact through the question of why it matters? Why does it matter to me, and why does it matter to us? So, that was really the the genesis. I I give my brother credit for um for the spark, but uh that was how the book came to be shaped. Yeah, I have to say I have had a chance to to read your book and very, very much enjoyed it. And I think, you know, there was lots that I really liked about it, but one of the things I think that I loved was getting a little insight into your story as well. I really enjoyed the fact that I sort of felt that I got to know you as well, not just hearing Anne's story, but how her story's impacted you.

[00:07:29]So, I that was really, really enjoyable, and I think a fresh perspective certainly among all the books that I've read about Anne Boleyn. Thank you.

[00:07:37][laughter] So, of course, Anne has, you know, her story has been told and retold and reshaped over the centuries so, so many times, um, but in my opinion, suddenly, and I think perhaps you would you might agree with this, it has also been distorted quite severely. So, you know, I think in terms of Anne's the stories told traditionally about Anne Boleyn, in my opinion, I just don't think they really reflect the woman who who kind of walked this earth at all, really. So, why do you think that that why do you think there's been this sort of distortion in in the traditional retelling of of Anne's story?

[00:08:15]Well, I guess to start with, I mean, there's nothing that um creative or uh or different about how Anne has been slandered. Um, it has been a pretty regular trope for talking about women, strong women, women who don't conform, women who uh speak up to cast them as sexually problematic. Um, and, you know, eventually, not during her lifetime, um, but eventually Anne was also cast as a witch. That also uh was a label that got applied to her, and that also hasn't been a super creative way of talking about women who are judged as challenging or problematic. Uh in terms of Anne's story specifically, you know, a lot of the reasons why she was experienced as so polarizing and why these labels of, you know, a bad woman and a promiscuous woman and a sexually deviant woman, why those labels were applied to her was in part because of her religious convictions, because she was a reformer, because being a reformer was a polarizing uh stance to take and yet over the course of history, you know, the the reasons for people's disdain and upset toward Anne kind of have ended up on the cutting room floor and all we're left with are the labels and and those labels have been uh have been I guess profitable ways of talking about Anne because, you know, it's pretty soap opera-esque. Um I would also say that probably the church needs some credit in why Anne Boleyn's reputation has been so distorted. I think the church has been especially guilty of uh propagating the fiction that it is white men who have shaped the church and the faith that we have today, that have shaped the world that we have today.

[00:10:32]It's only recently that we've been able to acknowledge, for example, that there were female disciples as well as male disciples of Jesus and there were female leaders in the beginning and throughout the history of the church.

[00:10:45]Um but because it's been mostly men at the front of churches and mostly men in the pulpits and mostly men's writing that has been published, uh it hasn't fit into the church's storytelling framework to acknowledge that women have also [clears throat] had a pretty powerful hand in shaping the institution and the faith that we have today.

[00:11:11]Yeah, absolutely. Very male-centered, suddenly once you start looking into it, it's quite appalling, actually. But um it's it's really interesting how it that that sort of does become absorbed into the the kind of general subconscious, I suppose, if you like.

[00:11:27]And what I mean is that often whenever, you you if I post something about Anne Boleyn, let's say, that the criticisms that people level at her they're usually unfounded completely.

[00:11:38]But, the other thing is that the people don't themselves know why they're saying that. This is what I find particularly interesting. So, for example, you know, just one very common one that I hear, and I'm sure you've heard so many times, Anne Boleyn was horrible to the Princess Mary.

[00:11:54]You know, or the Lady Mary, however you want to refer to her. And And that's a you know, you can make that statement, but when I whenever I ask, "And can I just, out of curiosity, know what you're basing that on?" They actually don't know. They actually There's no response to that. Because I think it's just a story that's been so told so told so many times over the centuries, and you know, portrayed so well in films and shows, and and incredible authors have have created some amazing scenes in their fictional works that people just assume that this is all fact, that it's all correct. And of course, once you go in and look and look at who's telling that story, "How do you know this?" You know, that I think that's one of my favorite questions, Martha, at the moment. I'm like, "How do we know this?

[00:12:36]Do we know this?"

[00:12:37]>> [laughter] >> And then sort of going from there. But, it's interesting that we repeat things that we really don't have any evidence for.

[00:12:45]Well, and it's interesting how we repeat things that fit with broader storytelling arcs that we're used to telling. And, you know, it's not new for men's problematic behavior to get nailed to the woman that is by their side. I mean, we do know that Henry was terrible toward his daughter and daughters.

[00:13:11]Um, but, you know, it was easier to blame Anne for that than to take anything to the king. Yeah, well, 100% absolutely. Um, and so, you know, obviously, we've talked about the fact that women's contributions as well are often minimized. This is the interesting thing. If a man does something problematic in the past and unfortunately still today, there's usually a woman that's going to be blamed for it. It's It's quite incredible, actually. I was just watching we're reviewing um a show about Elizabeth becoming Elizabeth with my lovely friend Dr. Owen Emerson. And I was watching the the episodes last night that we're about to review later today. And it's so interesting how how Elizabeth, the young Elizabeth who at the time was 15 years old, is portrayed as being the cause of Thomas Seymour kind of abruptly losing his mind and going and attempting to kidnap the king. Now, this is how it's portrayed in the show, but I find that really interesting that again, there's Thomas Seymour doing something really obviously ridiculous attempting to abduct the King of England and Elizabeth's blamed for it. And I And she's 15 years old in the show. So, I thought that was really interesting and that happens over and over again, doesn't it? But not only does does that occur, also if if something good happens as well, if a woman does something that is really valuable, that is really important to talk about, often that is minimized as well. And And [clears throat] And so, how does Anne's story sort of exemplify that?

[00:14:41]Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that the subtext of so many conversations that I have about Anne Boleyn when people find out that I am interested in her, that I've been writing and researching about her, they will say things like, "Well, you know that she tried to get the king's attention. You know that she put herself in the sights of the king." The subtext being then she deserved what she got when she died. Um and you know, I think so much of Anne's story has been told as a question or a problem in someone else's story that um you know, what did she do to make Henry desire her? What did she do to make him get rid of her? What What was her power over Henry? Um, there's a whole other kind of part of the Anne Boleyn storytelling that's about her dad and how he manipulated the situation and kind of is presented as pimping her out to the king.

[00:15:46]Um, and you know, all of that, I think, plays into, again, you know, the the central interest of my book is her role in the Reformation.

[00:16:00]And so often she has been um, labeled as the catalyst of the Reformation, you know, the spark that that drove other people's actions and agency. And I think that historians, um, who have actually looked at the the evidence, um, are right to label her instead an architect of the Reformation, that she had agency and action in her own right in shaping what the Church of England was becoming. And that's a very different story than just, um, a question mark in the stories of men.

[00:16:45]Yeah, absolutely. And so I think it's probably a good time then to talk about what you actually think Anne's impact was then on the English Reformation.

[00:16:55]Well, I would say a couple of uh of the big contributions, um, would be first around uh the publication of a Bible in English in 1535. And just to put that in context, we know that um, we know from her influences and from her activities that uh, reading the Bible and having access to the Bible in the vernacular was uh, very important to Anne and very important to the women who um, who influenced and shaped Anne in her education, particularly in the court of Queen Claude of France.

[00:17:41]Um, and so we can see this massive sea change over the course of her time uh, in power in England. Um, prior to Anne, people who were publishing um, English translations of the Bible were doing so from a place of exile or um, you know, were putting their lives in danger to do so.

[00:18:09]Um, prior to Anne Boleyn and I believe even at the beginning of her ascent to power, um, there were public burnings of English Bibles. Like that was how vehemently uh, England as a power structure was opposed to the to having the the Bible translated into the vernacular. So to go from that to 1535, the first publication of a Bible in English dedicated to the king and to Queen Anne.

[00:18:43]Um, that was a huge uh, sea change that she was part of.

[00:18:50]Um, alongside that, uh, I think the biggest impact that we can really name from her time is around [clears throat] personnel.

[00:19:01]She had an eye for talent. Um, she was really interested in education. She was really interested in supporting um, the education of people that she saw as uh, uh, as having talent and having ideas that could be impactful in the emerging English church. And there's a long list of of men who we can see her her hand in moving into positions of of highest office in the English church, but among them specifically would be Thomas Cranmer and Matthew Parker.

[00:19:43]And they would go on to become two of the three theologians who are credited with developing a distinctive Anglican theology.

[00:19:55]Um, that's a pretty pretty remarkable legacy and Thomas Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer is still used across the Anglican Communion, the global Anglican Communion today. So it's basically being at the the heart of Anglican prayer and piety for the past 500 years.

[00:20:19]Um, you know, moving those various chess pieces around, getting those people into positions of power would have a long-lasting influence not just in reform continuing through the time of King Henry VIII, but uh but you know, Thomas Cranmer was really influential in educating Jane Seymour's son Edward and him being raised as a reformer.

[00:20:49]The the personnel that Anne got into place was a big reason why Elizabeth was raised as as a Protestant, why she was educated the way that she was and then of course it was during her 45 year reign that that that stabilizing of public consensus happened around what the Church of England would be as separate from Rome.

[00:21:18]So, you know, those those two pieces, the English Bible, personnel, I think that's where we can see and trace her impact most directly. I will say though for me the piece that I also find really interesting is you know, Anne I think could be fairly uh fairly claimed as a reforming Catholic. So, we can see how she continued in some of the traditions and sacraments of the church. She didn't seem to be agitating for a complete baby out with the bathwater kind of version of reform.

[00:22:04]Um but she certainly had her specific places of wanting to see change happen.

[00:22:11]Um you know there's certainly not a direct line between Anne Boleyn and the Anglican Church of today.

[00:22:21]And yet it is interesting to me that that kind of reforming Catholic ethos is what has come to define Anglicanism, that Anglicanism is defined as that middle way between reform principles and Catholic principles. And um it it just seems interesting to me that that the Anglican Church of today would actually be kind of an amalgam that Anne Boleyn would recognize.

[00:22:51]Yeah, that's really interesting. It's It's tricky, isn't it, talking about religion in this period, the late 1520s, the early 1530s, because there's a great deal of fluidity there. And I think sometimes, you know, we want to box people neatly up and categorize reformer Catholic, this, that. But of course, you know, this is a time of great revolution in many ways, and Anne is suddenly I've been able to map her ideas evolving throughout this period. And as you say, I do agree that she died an English Catholic. I don't think there's any doubt about that. However, she certainly was passionate about reform, and who knows where she would have ended up had she had another, you know, 10 years, 20 years. Of course, we don't know. But it But it is interesting, and I think important to keep in mind that this There's no blueprint for reformer in England in this period.

[00:23:41]Everyone looks very different. You know, if we take Thomas Cromwell compared to Anne Boleyn, and look at other people, there are suddenly differences. There are similarities, but there are differences as well, and I think important to keep that in mind. But yes, she I completely agree on both those points in terms of the English Bible and education. I There's so much evidence about her hand in education, and I think this is critical when we talk about the Reformation because these This is how the ideas were spread. You know, she's moving people into these key ecclesiastical positions, supporting, as you've said, talented scholars who will then go out and talk about these ideas.

[00:24:20]They're the men that are able to get on the pulpits, aren't they? And to do the preaching. So, the fact that it's not Anne standing up on that pulpit, and it's perhaps her armina, I don't think is, you know, I think we still need to to consider Anne as being suddenly critical in that process. So, really fabulous, really interesting. I want to read you, Martha, a quote here from Eric Ives, just to have a little discussion about it. So, this is from the wonderful late Professor Eric Ives.

[00:24:48]He said in his biography of Anne Boleyn towards the end, he said she had been a remarkable woman. She would remain a remarkable woman even in a century which produced many of great note. There were few others who rose from such beginnings to a crown and none contributed to a revolution as far-reaching as the English Reformation. And he then goes on and concludes that Anne was one of the makers of history. Now, I was wondering how you feel about Ives' conclusions about Anne.

[00:25:25]Yeah, well, I have a couple of thoughts about that. I mean obviously I think she's remarkable.

[00:25:32]Obviously I think she had a huge hand in um shaping our history and I am really committed to um to more people knowing her impact and her legacy. Um you know, she's captivating, she's fascinating. I just uh uh like guess based on being a listener of your podcast, I think she's the the figure from the Tudors that you talk about more than any [clears throat] other um figure from the Tudors. So, she's obviously got a a wide audience still of people who find her captivating. However, at the same time I'm compelled by the reading that I did in writing this book and by the conversations that I hear on your podcast and a few other podcasts, but uh that yours specifically um that I think at the same time that yeah, she was remarkable and we can claim that, um shout it from the rooftops, we do also need to see her as a woman of her time.

[00:26:46]Um and I think that that actually has a lot to do with why she did what she did and how she became who she became. I think that she was raised in a way um that saw the education of women as pretty normalized. And I think that she had a lot of examples of what female leadership could look like in a variety of places.

[00:27:18]Um and and at the same time that um that her story has obviously popped off the page over the course of the past 500 years, I think it's really important to note that for every woman who does pop off the page of our history books, there are a lot of other women who are behind the scenes um who are also agitating and speaking up and getting their voices heard and making their impact felt in one way or another. I was really interested over the course of my reading by the historian Sharon Jansen. I don't know whether you've read some of her work, but she um she has done some really interesting research in in how women, not just elite women, not just educated women, not just women that we know about, but women of a lot of different economic uh backgrounds and situations were actually involved in very interesting ways in the key like political and theological conversations of the time. And um and so yeah, like let's claim Anne as remarkable, but let's also be clear that she is representative of so many other women who um who are also leading and speaking up and influencing and impacting in that period of history as well. Yeah, really important point to make there, absolutely. I think again, this is an issue with the way that history has been told and will lead into the next question that I want to discuss with you, but I think certainly remarkable, yes, and quite a an extraordinary story actually and rise of Anne herself painting Anne as extraordinary diminishes the women around her and I think that is the the issue that we face. We can acknowledge, of course, how remarkable she was, there's no problem with that. We can acknowledge how how her situation, her particular situation, was quite extraordinary coming to become queen from her position, but I think in terms of the women who throughout history have been doing quite amazing things, you know, I think painting women as picking out these these few women through history and saying, "Oh, they're quite extraordinary." I I do that is unfair to the thousands and thousands thousands of women who have been doing extraordinary things throughout throughout their lives and who either through a paucity of sources or just through the telling of this very male-centered telling of history haven't made it onto our pages.

[00:30:01]I think we need to acknowledge that they're there and they've been doing incredible things throughout history.

[00:30:06]So, really great point to to highlight.

[00:30:10]Yeah. Um so, in sort of connected to that then and we talked about the fact that there is, of course, there are people who tell history and and narrative has such a power. I think there's a real power in narrative. So, talk to me a little bit about who gets to tell history, who gets to tell these stories and what gets erased?

[00:30:33]Yeah. Um so, in Canada, um we have been on quite a path of truth and reconciliation with indigenous people.

[00:30:47]And a number of years ago, there were calls to action around a path of truth and reconciliation. And a number of those calls to action um involved making sure that indigenous stories were told as well. That in the public narrative, that in our education system, that when we're talking about the history of Canada, we are talking about indigenous history as well. That that is also part of the story. And you know, I think that that is a a telling example of um what happens when stories [clears throat] get erased. You know, what happens when we don't um when we pretend that whole swaths of people have not been involved in the narrative, which is that um it becomes a lot easier to diminish and dismiss whole groups of people.

[00:31:57]Um it becomes possible to turn a blind eye to systemic injustice and violence.

[00:32:04]And there is a terrible history of um of violence and uh and injustice in terms of indigenous people in Canada. And um you know, we live in a world where there is ongoing systemic injustice and violence toward women as well. And um and you know, I don't think it's a one-to-one parallel, but I do think that there is a lesson there in terms of women's role in history, women's stories being represented in history, and why it matters that um that they get to be part of the narrative, too.

[00:32:52]Yes, and I want to talk a little bit more about why Anne's story matters today. But before we do that, just to say and I think it was I think it was Elif Shafak, actually. I was listening to a talk that she gave recently, and she said something that has just sort of stuck with me. She's She, of course, um acknowledges the power of of stories and narratives, um incredibly powerful.

[00:33:16]But she also says that we we don't just need to be storytellers, we need to be silent tellers. And I just was so moved by that because she she constantly sort of suggests that we need to look to the the sort of peripheries, you know, we need to look and listen for those gaps, listen for the silences, and and see what we can find there to to tell a supposed a more a fairer uh story about history. And I think this is so important with women's history, of course, in general, but certainly Anne's story as well. But, Martha, people will often ask, why does it matter? Like, who cares whether Anne said this or she didn't say that, or, you know, whether she did seduce the king or whether she didn't seduce the king. So, why does how we talk about women's women from the past in general, I would argue, but but we're talking about Anne today. So, why does how we talk about Anne actually matter today, right now?

[00:34:12]Yeah, I I mean, I think that she really can be seen as representing um some of the most problematic ways in which we have talked about women, and and how I think that that is connected to then how we have um turned a blind eye and allowed uh systemic injustice and violence against women to continue. I mean, Anne was killed by her husband.

[00:34:45]Um she was one of two wives that were killed by her husband. And yet, too often her story gets told as one where she is the problem.

[00:34:55]>> Yeah.

[00:34:56]Um and one where Catherine Howard was the problem. Um you know, we live in a world where women's rights have and can be curtailed at breathtaking speed, where we haven't really made any meaningful advances on bridging um the pay gap in men and women's work. Um I've heard studies that say that up to 95% of victims of sexual assault don't report the assault because they feel unsafe in doing so.

[00:35:36]Um like statistically, one woman every 10 minutes is killed in our world by uh an intimate partner or family member.

[00:35:50]Um you know, we're a long ways away from a world where women's lives are really treated like they matter.

[00:36:01]And um and I think that interrogating one woman's story that has been distorted and unfairly represented and subject to a lot of the victim-blaming tropes that we have used throughout history to um continue to propagate these systems of violence against women, I think that that matters in a really profound way.

[00:36:27]Yeah, completely. I completely agree with you and that suddenly motivates a lot of the work that I do, I think. This exact question of why it matters, because I do think that how we speak about Anne Boleyn, Catherine Howard, whoever, Elizabeth Woodville, anyone that you can sort of think of from the past actually does shape how we think about women today and what we say about women today. So, I think it's very important for us to reflect critically on those things actually. But, more broadly, Martha, I just wanted to to talk a little bit more broadly about why revisiting these historical women through a modern lens does matter to you now at this point as well. So, more sort of not just Anne, but just historical women, I suppose.

[00:37:10]Yeah, well, I I'm going to speak specifically about the church context, but I think that what I am saying applies broadly, um, outside of the church context. So, in the Anglican Church of Canada, which is where I serve, um, women have been ordained now, this is the 50th year, uh, that women have been ordained in the Anglican Church of Canada. So, in the grand scheme of it's longer than I've been alive, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a really short period of time. And I still regularly, uh, get people coming up to me and saying that I am their first experience of seeing a woman at the altar or seeing a woman in the pulpit.

[00:37:56]Um, and, you know, we can see women in the Anglican Church in a variety of places throughout our world breaking through those glass ceilings or those stained glass ceilings. Um, we have the first female Archbishop of Canterbury, uh, who has just been appointed and, um, taken that position this year.

[00:38:18]Um, and I think for all of us in leadership in the church, uh there is an easy way of thinking of what we're doing as being something new.

[00:38:36]You know, something that that we're trying out. Um and along with that comes this very different kind of standard by which we get judged because um you know, like it's not just me and my work that's being judged. It's sort of a referendum on female leadership in the church. Um whether or not I am successful, whether or not the Archbishop of Canterbury is successful. We get judged by this very different standard.

[00:39:09]I think it's really, really important for us in the church, and I think for women in leadership more broadly, to be able to claim that actually female leadership isn't new.

[00:39:22]You know, that we are part of a long uh history, a long legacy of women exerting influence and making an impact.

[00:39:34]And maybe we haven't been good at telling those stories. Maybe we have um not been good at seeing what women are doing and how they are contributing, but we've always been here. It's not that suddenly women woke up one day and said, "You know, I think I have something to say. I think I have something to offer."

[00:39:54]We've always had something to say, and we've always had something to offer.

[00:39:57]Um and that question of whether women can and should lead, that question should be settled by now.

[00:40:05]Yeah, it should be.

[00:40:06]>> [laughter] >> Um and I think that, you know, revisiting historical women, not just Anne Boleyn, but so many others. And again, I would go all the way back in uh the Christian faith to the women of the Bible, to the followers of Jesus who were female.

[00:40:24]You know, women have been leading and shaping and influencing and impacting all along. So, let's get our stories straight and let's be clear that we're just continuing a really great tradition.

[00:40:41]Yeah, absolutely. I think you have summed that up quite beautifully. So, thank you.

[00:40:45]Such a lovely conversation. It's been so interesting to hear your perspective on this and I think as I said, very fresh perspective given your position in the church as well. Really fascinating.

[00:40:56]There is one last thing that I do Martha when I first have guests on the show and it's what I call 10 to go. So, these are just 10 quick questions just to get to know you a little bit better because as you know, I love walking in the footsteps of of people from the past.

[00:41:09]So, do you have a favorite historic site that you like to visit?

[00:41:13]Um, I would say uh Oh gosh, probably um Well, Rome is definitely my favorite city to visit. Um, the lasagna city. I just I love um being able to see kind of all of the layers of like 2,000 years ago and 1,500 years ago and 1,000 years ago and 500 years ago and all just kind of piled up on top of each other and uh and then you know, the the pasta and the red wine is pretty good, too.

[00:41:50]>> [laughter] >> It absolutely is. No argument from me. I love Rome as well. Um, what about the last book that you read or perhaps one you're currently reading?

[00:41:58]I am currently reading The Vaster Wilds by Lauren Groff.

[00:42:03]So, um it is a fictional book but uh about um uh I guess it's sort of historical fiction and I she's a really wonderful writer and it's a fun book to read. Lovely. And what about a film or a movie? It could maybe a series as well that you've gone back to and watched more than once.

[00:42:29]Okay, this doesn't necessarily have to No, no, it doesn't have to be Tudor history.

[00:42:35]>> [laughter] [gasps] >> I do I do have to say that I have probably watched the Sex and the City series about 250 times. Wow, that's [laughter] a lot.

[00:42:48]Yeah, I don't know. I just I'm constantly I constantly enjoy those characters.

[00:42:55]Yeah, that sounds fun. And what about an ideal Friday night, let's say? What does an ideal Friday night look like for you?

[00:43:03]Okay, I think that being able to make supper with my husband, have a glass of wine, make some supper, eat with the kids, maybe watch a show with the the kids. My son and I are both really into watching Survivor and we also like uh sports bandwagons. So, you know, whenever there's like a Canadian team that's doing really well in hockey or >> [clears throat] >> or basketball or uh uh baseball. Um getting to watch a game with my son and have a really great meal. Those would be Go for a walk.

[00:43:51]Yeah. Yeah, that sounds lovely. with the family.

[00:43:54]>> good. And what about if you had some more spare time? Is there a new skill that you would like to learn?

[00:44:01]Well, I am a runner and I I really really like long-distance running. So, if I had more time, I would train for another marathon.

[00:44:13]I'm [clears throat] right now more into half marathons cuz they're a little bit more doable for my schedule, but I would really love to have the time to invest in um not just like the mileage that is required of getting ready for a marathon, but like the strength training and you know, being attentive to my nutrition and all of those pieces. I would love to If I had more time, that is, I would really take on a marathon in a very intentional way.

[00:44:44]Wow, that's impressive. I My husband does a lot of those events. In fact, he's out doing an aquathon right now.

[00:44:50]And he has done a marathon and I Yeah, it takes a lot of time and effort to prepare for something like that.

[00:44:56]But, fabulous. I love that you're wanting to do that. What about if you could just go back to history for a moment? What about if you could recover, and this can be anything, any artifact from history? Is there something that you would just be like, "Oh, I need to get my hands on that. I'd love to get my hands on that."

[00:45:14]Well, I I mean, I think right now, given all of the conversation that has been going on about what Anne Boleyn actually looked like, if I could go back and, you know, find one of those portraits for sure that was that was like maybe a whole body one that was done of her in her time, um that would be amazing to just truly be able to glimpse what Anne Boleyn looked like. I mean, I know that we have a couple of We have a couple of artifacts, but uh it'd be it'd be great to have like a full-color full full portrait. Wouldn't it be lovely?

[00:45:58]Yeah, I always think that the the full-length portrait that probably did exist at one point would have been amazing to see. I actually think we'd probably be quite surprised if we had a definite view of what Anne Berlin looked like.

[00:46:10]Right, interesting.

[00:46:11]>> that's part of what makes it so wonderful to contemplate that, you know, we could just be so surprised by um by our perceptions being challenged.

[00:46:23]Yeah, and just for the record, I I think the Windsors sketchy still Anne Berlin.

[00:46:27]Just thought I'd put that out there.

[00:46:29]Yeah, I know. I appreciate that.

[00:46:31]>> [laughter] >> And so what about where do you find inspiration for your work? Obviously you you work in the church but then you also have done this this incredible book with history. So what what inspires you?

[00:46:44]Um yeah, I like I I don't have to write.

[00:46:48]Um I do have a full-time job as a leader of a church and so I have this luxury of just being able to write when an idea comes to me and um I don't you know, I don't have to force it. I don't have to um write because I have a deadline or, you know, um things that people are expecting of me. So I just I really try to pay attention to the conversations that are happening around me and then I just I try to follow that energy that comes out of like just that little spark like the conversation with my brother that sparked like okay, well, now I want to read and now I want to now I want to know more and I want to think about what this could be and I like to just following that energy.

[00:47:42]Yeah, I think that sort of organic evolution of ideas and following your your creativity produces things that are a much more interesting and in my view and much more sort of genuine and I think have a bigger reach, too. I do think there is there's something interesting going on there with ideas and creativity. That would take us another few hours to discuss, Martha, so >> [laughter] >> maybe for another >> another time. Another conversation, yeah. So, apart from Lasagna City, I love that, um is there another travel destination that that you would like to visit? Maybe one you haven't seen that you would like to see.

[00:48:16]Okay, well, I was thinking about that question in particular, and I did go to Hever Castle last summer. I had a wonderful trip, but at the end of writing this uh getting my first draft into my publisher, I took my daughter to England and we had a week and went to Anne Boleyn sites all week. It was really, really um just such an amazing week and so special to share it with my daughter. Um but, now that there is the uh Anne Boleyn um Oh, the exhibition? exhibition at Hever Castle all of those images of her collected in one place, I tell you, I have just listened to the reports of that exhibition with the deepest longing for being able to find the resources to go back to England before that exhibition is over cuz it it seems like quite a remarkable thing to be able to see. Oh, yes. Look, if you can manage it, I would highly, highly recommend it. It's it's very it's very rare to have all those images of Anne in the one place. You know, normally you do need to traipse around the country to to see a lot of that, and then of course there's things that were in private collections. Did you find it like quite emotional to see?

[00:49:36]>> Oh, yes, absolutely. And I think what is really emotional is the fact that you're in their home on top of everything else.

[00:49:43]So, you know, you know, you know that you are and because Hever is so, as you know cuz you visited, it's so sort of intimate. You know, it's a small it's called castle, but it's it's quite like dainty in a way. And so you know when you are going up those steps, you know when you're walking through those rooms that you are literally walking where Anne walked. Not just Anne though, with George and Mary and Elizabeth and Thomas and Margaret Butler and you know, you could keep going. Anne of Cleves. So it it's quite powerful to be in that space.

[00:50:12]And then to follow the sort of evolution of her image and to be able to compare ones you wouldn't normally be able to to have so close together. And you see things Martha that you you just don't notice when you're looking at a a photo or a digital scan. You know, there's there's things that jump out at you.

[00:50:28]There's they've got their own auras these portraits and some I found really powerful and others not so much and it's it's really interesting. The other wonderful thing when I went was listening to the conversations, doing a bit of eavesdropping, and hearing people's responses to the various portraits. Like, "Oh, this is a great portrait. Oh, no, I don't like that."

[00:50:46]You know, for whatever reason. I found that really fascinating. But I think suddenly being in the in their family home while you are thinking about her image and the way her story's been portrayed cuz it's it's about more than just the image, isn't it? It's it's very moving and very powerful, especially if you're a very sensitive person like myself who's like, "Oh my gosh." You know, atmosphere affects me greatly. So it's it's really really wonderful. So I do hope you get to see it. I want to go so badly. Oh, I'm keeping everything crossed for you that you might be able to get there before it ends. I think it's January next year, I want to say.

[00:51:25]Could be the end of this year, but there's still a bit of time. You've got time.

[00:51:29]>> There's some time. There's some time. Um and then so a great um we might just end on one more question and that is a great piece of advice that you wouldn't mind sharing with us. Now this doesn't have to be about history or writing. It could just be life in general, something that that stuck with you, maybe something someone's told you, or you've read, that you wouldn't mind to to share.

[00:51:51]A piece of advice?

[00:51:53]Um well, maybe I will um share a piece of advice that I was uh that has been really important for me as a writer.

[00:52:03]Um which is uh just write a crappy first draft.

[00:52:10]Yeah. You know, like it really helps to get over the writer's block.

[00:52:16]Um when you just give yourself permission to just write a crappy first draft. Yeah.

[00:52:23]Once you get something down, um then you can shape it and iron it out and go back and fill in the details from there. Um people people often say to me um when they find out that I'm a writer that uh oh, I've always wanted to write a book. Yeah. A lot of people don't.

[00:52:46]Right. [laughter] >> Like a lot of people have ideas, but they don't write them down. Um and I would just give that piece of advice. If you really want to be a writer, just write a crappy first draft. Go from there.

[00:52:59]>> Yeah, you know what's so incredibly valuable, and it's a piece of advice that I need to hear often.

[00:53:05]>> [laughter] >> Because yeah, you know, I'm a bit of a perfectionist, I'm afraid, and I always feel like whatever I type has to be sort of perfect first round, and it it's so not like that.

[00:53:15]>> It's it's exactly what you're saying.

[00:53:17]It's a craft that you build, you develop, you work on. And so, I couldn't agree more. I think just put something on paper. Hand write it, type it, riddle it, talk it, speak it into a thing. You know, like there's so many ways now, isn't there, of recording our our thoughts. And I and I agree that it doesn't have to be perfect first time around, although I need to keep reminding myself of that.

[00:53:38]Um Martha, where can people We'll out more about you? Do you have a a website, are you on socials?

[00:53:44]Yep, I'm on social media. Uh I think I am the only Martha Tetarnik in the whole world, so Oh, really?

[00:53:52]>> I just [laughter] have like complete domain over that name.

[00:53:54]>> Oh, there you go.

[00:53:56]Well, if there are any other Marthas out there, Tetarniks, we want to hear from you.

[00:54:01]Yeah.

[00:54:02]I'm pretty sure I'm the only one, so my website is marthatetarnik.ca.

[00:54:07]I am on Instagram and Facebook, Martha Tetarnik, just my name.

[00:54:12]Um yeah, and also like my church is on all the social media as well, St. George's, St. Catherine's, so um you can certainly find my sermons and that kind of thing through the church.

[00:54:26]Um yeah, I'm pretty easy to find.

[00:54:29]Wonderful. Thank you. And this has been so lovely to speak with you. And again, I highly recommend people go out and order a copy of your book. As I said, I I feel it offers a really fresh and unique perspective and important among all the works of around Anne Boleyn. So, thank you so much for writing that, and thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us on the podcast.

[00:54:50]Thank you for having me, Natalie. I can't thank you enough for your podcast.

[00:54:54]I um just wait with bated breath for every episode to drop, and it was such an important companion to me as I was writing this book, so um thank you for your work. Oh, thank you. Music to my ears. Absolute music to my ears. Thank you.