‘Major escalation’ on NATO soil as Russian drone strikes Romania | Russia-Ukraine latest war news

追加: 2026-05-30

[00:00:00]I'm Dom Nichols and this is Ukraine the latest. Today, as Romania kicks Russian diplomats out of the country following a drone strike last night that has injured civilians, we ask why is it so easy for Romania to name the perpetrator of such attacks when others still seek to avoid aortioning blame. We then look at reports Russia is continuing to be hit hard on the southern corridor, including now by drone landed mines, followed by the second part of Francis's special dispatch from the Labiani Art Festival in Venice. Today, looking at the decision to permit the reopening of the Russian pavilion and his encounter with [ __ ] Riot. And we finish with a dispatch from me after my visit to a prison of war camp in western Ukraine.

[00:00:41]It's Friday the 29th of May, 4 years and 94 days since the full-scale invasion began. And today I'm joined by my co-host Francis Durnley. Now, the big news today and the only real diplomatic story we're going to concentrate on is that a Russian drone has hit a Romanian block of flats yesterday, leaving two people injured. NATO condemned Russia's recklessness, and the Romanian military scrambled two F-16 fighter jets. They either didn't get there in time or were unable to take action against the Russian weapon. The Romanian government sent alert messages to residents in affected areas and requested the accelerated transfer of anti- drone capabilities from NATO and EU states. In response this morning, the Romanian president has declared the Russian consulate in Constant in the east of the country on the Black Sea coast persona Nong Grata, saying it will close following the drone strike. President Nikas Ordan said, "We had a serious incident last night in which two Romanian citizens were injured and the entire responsibility for this incident lies with Russia." It's good to see someone actually naming who the aggressor is. Now, the drone hit a residential building in the southwest of the town of Galati in eastern Romania, causing a fire and injuring two people.

[00:01:51]Around 70 were evacuated from the building, which was heavily damaged. The Romanian Ministry of Defense confirmed the drone was Russian. Romanian Foreign Minister Anuyu said on X that the instant is a serious and irresponsible escalation by Russia, adding, "Romania will take the necessary diplomatic response measures regarding this serious violation of international law and of its airspace. Romania will act with the utmost determination to increase international pressure on the Russian Federation with a view to achieving an immediate and comprehensive ceasefire.

[00:02:24]Then Ursul Vandelion the European Commission president said Russia's war of aggression had crossed yet another line. Unverified imagery reported of wreckage from the site suggests a Russian Geran 2 drone which is based on the Iranian Shahed 136 was used in the attack. Now we've seen many times since the start of the full-scale invasion incidents where drones have landed in Romania, but they've actually been attacking Ukrainian energy infrastructure on the Danube River which forms the border in this area bit further to the east. It is highly unusual for drones to hit this area of Romania and to penetrate so far into Romanian and don't forget NATO airspace.

[00:03:02]We've argued in the past that NATO air defense assets should be covering this area. We've also suggested that if such an air defense umbrella happened to extend into Ukraine and shoot down any drones in Ukrainian airspace that might be heading for Romania, so much the better. The view seems to have been that such a move would be escalatory on NATO's part and that there was provision in place mainly in the form of NATO jets on the air policing mission to deal with errant drones. Surely now these ideas can be shown to be the straw man arguments that we've long suspected.

[00:03:33]They didn't work. A drone got through.

[00:03:36]People were injured in NATO territory.

[00:03:38]What part of Russia being an increasing threat to NATO do some of these people not understand or are willfully avoiding? Do people have to die in NATO countries before firmer action is taken?

[00:03:52]I bumped my gums enough, Francis. Uh I've spoken about this before and the the uh lack of resolve, should we say, from the international partners when it comes to air defense and bringing these things down, but what's your view?

[00:04:03]>> Well, I I think very much in accordance with you, Dom, we should be looking at this imagining that people have been killed. That's how serious this is. If there had been casualties of that nature, then we'd be having very different conversations now. But the fact is the fundamental facts remain the same. Russia has fired a drone that has entered NATO airspace and has put lives in danger and could have killed people.

[00:04:28]Where is the international response going to land as a consequence? There's no talk this morning about Article 5 being invoked. That might indeed be seen as a step too far. But nonetheless, one has to emphasize here that because we have seen again and again drones going into NATO countries, we have become in a sense adjusted to that reality. And that arguably arguably favors Russia.

[00:04:52]>> Yeah. No talk either this morning of article 4 being enacted, which is just bringing together >> um people for a chat. Don't have to take action at the end of it. You don't have to with article five either, but article four is seen as a step below. It's the it's the convening of uh of the um of the members for uh for a consensus. Um now I have I've been very critical in the past of the United Nations and other organizations for not attributing blame.

[00:05:17]It's it's very refreshing to see uh President Nixuran and the Romanian authorities naming Russia here. It might be a counterfactual too far, but I'm interested in your view here. I mean, what part of the calculus that Russia made to take the risk of a drone going into Russia or other other international airspace and injuring people outside of Ukraine, do you think might have been shorn up by this lack of attribution over the preceding four years?

[00:05:47]>> I think it's massive. I think it made a massive role in that. I think if there had been a really strong and robust response and understanding from the international community as to what the consequences of even the possibility of drones putting lives in danger in NATO in NATO territory then we'd be in a very very different place now and I think Russia has consistently been probing at Europe's borders in hybrid terms and indeed with literal incursions as we've been describing now for months and as we've always said now for the last four is Putin effectively operates in the space that is afforded to him and any space that we afford whether it be physical airspace or metaphorical airspace is in essence his to control and so we have by allowing this to uh reach this level are I think now putting ourselves even more at risk because we've seen this incident today there are strong words as you've just described from international leaders but it is not perhaps as strong as we would have been expecting had there been before this point very very robust warnings about what the consequences would be of any risk of this and as a consequence once again Putin has has crossed a red line without really serious consequence.

[00:07:06]>> Yeah, I've seen some reports today saying that the Romanian mod have said that they they didn't have time to to bring the drone down. Um I mean >> that's a concern by the way as well I think.

[00:07:16]>> Yeah, it is. it is and there may be any number of uh reasons for that. We shouldn't necessarily criticize them for the for the lack of action. I think it would be really interesting now to see what NATO does because you can't put the genie back in the bottle. This has happened. You can't say it it will never happen. People have been injured uh on NATO territory. So this idea about air defense, I mean not only does it show that that that NATO territory is permeable, which is not good.

[00:07:44]>> Mhm.

[00:07:44]>> But this idea now about uh is it escalatory to push air defense assets up to to cover the border area and then okay maybe maybe for now it's a it's a step too far to extend it as I've been suggesting 20 30 40 whatever case inside Ukraine and bring down the drones there.

[00:08:00]But are are NATO air defense assets going to be going to be moved as a result of this? because you can't just can't just be strong words and oh you pesky Russian just oh wait till next time you know this is the next time it's happened you can't say it's not going to happen >> and if I may offer one final thought on this I think it's really important to consider what certain countries including Romania will be thinking now in terms of next steps and whether that will put more pressure on them domestically as it has on other aspects of NATO's eastern flank for air defense to be prioritized domestically rather than being prioritized and giving weapons to Ukraine And that's the other aspect of this that is always worth bearing in mind. Putin knows that if he probes countries in this way with that would knowing there's not going to be a serious response that that actually helps his cause because it means that people are less inclined to support Ukraine directly.

[00:08:48]>> Obviously we will talk about this again.

[00:08:50]We'll see what happens uh over the weekend. Now uh looking at the more military updates, no moves on the front but very active again. A spotlight on how miserable it is to be an infantier at the front right now. Let's look at the comments by a spokesperson of a Ukrainian brigade deployed in the vicinity of Leman who said yesterday that they've been targeting Russian ground lines of communication I road and rail logistic lines and drone operator positions inhibiting Russian forces ability to supply forward infantry positions. The spokesperson said that this means Russian infantry are now sometimes having to emerge from their positions in search of food allowing Ukrainian drones or infantry to kill them. 960 Russian casualties yesterday.

[00:09:34]Uh stats from the Ukrainian general staff there. Now, Ukraine's unmanned systems forces say they've hit air defense systems, radars, logistic depots across Crimea and elsewhere in that 50 to 200 kmish mid-range zone that we've been talking about, continuing the campaign that has all but stopped movement by Russian forces at the front.

[00:09:53]There are also reports Ukraine is now mining Russia's southern logistic route through Melipole, Marupole to Crimea, that kind of route along the top of the Sea of Azov. There is imagery of uh mines that have been dropped by aerial drones on the roads that's going to further hamper Russian logistics in that area. Also, footage has been released today of a reported strike by a Ukrainian drone on a Russian ship at the Novarisk naval base. This apparently happened last Saturday. Numerous reports say that it was a project 11356 frigot Admiral Essen that was hit, but I've seen that report disputed and there's also doubt that the drone actually hit the ship. The footage cuts out before impact and the weapon may have hit a wall. Regardless, I think Ukraine will take heart from this operation from the fact that their drone got through some pretty wild air defense from Russia. Now sticking in the maritime domain and Ukraine's Navy said that a Russian drone had hit a Turkish registered tanker last night just outside the port of Adessa. A brief fire was contained, but two injured crew were taken off the vessel.

[00:10:55]That was almost certainly part of a wider drone attack last night against the city and across the country. 217 of 232 drones were brought down. 14 drones and one ballistic missile got through.

[00:11:06]Two people, a 65y old man and a 69y old woman were killed in a Russian strike on a civilian car. 27 injured elsewhere across the country. Now, just finally worth bringing to your attention, Putin is in the Kazak capital of Astana today for a state visit. He was met personally by President Tokv. It's the 39th meeting between the two leaders and unusually the second state visit of a single presidential term. It's perhaps indicative of Putin's concern, as we've heard many times from our colleague James Kilner, that Russia is losing relevance among countries it considers to be in its sphere of orbit. Anyway, Putin arrived to empty streets. That might be the way they do it in Kazakhstan or maybe a security request by Putin. He arrived in a very heavily armed motorcade. Uh quite striking imagery. Now, Francis, uh I thought your first part of uh the the This is This is nice.

[00:12:01]>> Okay. Okay. I'm I'm waiting for it to come. All right.

[00:12:02]>> Oh, the first part of your Labian uh dispatch uh was was very good.

[00:12:08]>> I thought it was amazing. I I really liked it.

[00:12:10]>> Thank you very Well, credit to Sophie O' Sullivan who edited it.

[00:12:12]>> Okay. Right. Sophie, it's all all your credit. I can't even I can't give it out here. Sophie. But anyway, part two today uh where you look at uh the the controversy over readmitting Russia into Lebanon and you just happen to bump into [ __ ] Riot on the street.

[00:12:29]>> Yes.

[00:12:29]>> So, come on. What's happening in part two?

[00:12:31]>> As one does. Yes. It was um if if part one offered a lighter look at the way that Ukraine was exploring art um through the lens of war and trying to find joy amid that horror that of course we were bought on every day. Just on that, I I thought that was partic butt in, but I thought that was that was excellent because as we've said many times on this on this podcast, we're we're all adults. So, amid all this >> these very very dark times, uh we we are allowed the space for joy and to take uh take heart in in life. Uh and I thought the exhibition still joy, that's what it was called, still joy, which as you say >> rifts on all the ways of uh of all the the different um ways of looking at that phrase. Uh it does look at at joy amid these as I say these dark times. I thought it was an excellent uh an excellent theme for the for the exhibition. But sorry I I >> well as well today is going to take a little bit more of a somber turn as you'll see because this is focused particularly on the Russian pavilion, the protests that I encountered there because of the Russian pavilion opening.

[00:13:32]And I've really wanted to expand on the the timeline here, exactly why this has happened, how it's been allowed to happen, what power governments, authorities, foundations have in stopping it, as well as, yes, my uh extensive discussion with one of the founders of [ __ ] Ride. So enjoy. In my first dispatch from Venice in yesterday's episode, I visited one of Ukraine's independent exhibitions at the Bonali, Still Joy by the Victor Pinchuk Foundation and the Pinchuk Art Center about how soldiers and artists are grappling with war, memory, and the search for joy amid catastrophe.

[00:14:08]But today, I want to focus on the core controversy at the heart of this year's festival. Often described as the Olympics of the art world, here more than a hundred nations, including Ukraine, present contemporary artists in national pavilions from May to November, projecting cultural prestige on the world stage while competing for the golden lion for best national participation.

[00:14:33]This year's theme, minor keys, turns its attention towards marginal and overlooked voices. Yet much of that has been eclipsed by the sudden reopening of the Russian pavilion. Russia was never formally banned from the 2022 Bonali.

[00:14:51]Instead, following the invasion of Ukraine, the pavilion effectively withdrew after its curator and artists resigned in protest. The bonali expressed solidarity with their decision and condemned the violence, but stopped short of imposing any institutional ban.

[00:15:08]Russia also didn't participate in 2024.

[00:15:12]Its pavilion remained shuttered. But then quite suddenly came the announcement that it would reopen this year. The BNI insisted it lacked the authority to exclude participating nations while the president of its foundation defended the decision by arguing that the BNR should remain open to everyone and closed to no one.

[00:15:34]Unsurprisingly, the decision provoked outrage from some quarters. Arriving on the festival's opening day, I was immediately confronted by visible expressions of that anger.

[00:15:50]>> I'm outside of the entrance to the bonal. You can see a spontaneous protest has formed here. People are not happy about the inclusion of the Russian pavilion.

[00:16:02]We are here to denounce as we are we have been doing for years the crimes of Vladimir Putin. Uh we want to express our support to the people of Ukraine to the people of Georgia to the people of Chuchenia. Every people that has been trying to uh liberate to be free from the regime of Moscow. We're a part of the movement nonformal arts against aggression.

[00:16:27]>> Okay. So we're here both to memorize the Ukrainian artist writers that will never ever many were here to speak for the colonized people in Moscow who do not have their own pavilion and who are shadowed and silenced by the empire.

[00:16:47]We're here to speak for Russian resident artists and we sent took a list of the artists currently imprisoned for their art and political descent. And we are here because we uh know that today is not just the day of the truly opening of Bianale but also the day of the Europe.

[00:17:06]Uh the day uh one Europe say of of Europe that is a space of statue of dit uh d the of liberty of freedom and of freedom to be himself herself to everyone. And we are here to celebrate Europe and to to celebrate freedom to celebrate art to celebrate art of course and for that uh it's very important to be here and we are not just against but we are for art but that art that don't uh put behind something like propaganda the crimes the war crimes that Putin uh do every day against civils in Ukraine also So for this with we wrote down this postcard to to send to Putin and we really really waiting for him in uh Aya uh at the European court uh just because it's the right place for Putin to be this pavion is organized from oligarchs from people that has their hands on with the blood of Ukrainian people.

[00:18:21]Italy is um strongly influenced by Russia.

[00:18:27]It's got this strong influence. I don't know why. Well, actually, I know why because um they Italians in general, they love this um romanticized version of Russia, you know, this uh the the writers and this uh um this Russian soul that nobody understands. But actually it's it's not true, you know, like they're people like the rest of us.

[00:18:56]It's just that they're hungry for this uh imperialistic power over everybody else and they think that they that they are superior to everybody else. But that's not in the cards, is it? Now, because we live in the free world, I guess we live in Europe.

[00:19:19]The previous day, the curators and soldiers I'd spoken to at Stilljoy shared their reactions to the reopening of the Russian pavilion, beginning with Bjorn Gildoff, artistic director of the Pinchuk Art Center.

[00:19:32]>> I think it's horrible. It's terrible.

[00:19:36]Art is not as innocent as we sometimes would like it to be.

[00:19:42]art really can be used as an instrument that furthers an imperialistic agenda or whitewashes actions of war. And if a large institution such as the bianial does not take that into account and stays oblivious on the fact that culture is more than just talking about art then I think they have failed and obviously we shouldn't be talking about Russia and its culture. We should be talking about Ukraine and its culture and we should talk about what Russia is actually doing. How it is destroying schools, how it is destroying museums, how it is killing artists, how it is killing thousands of civilians. That is what we should be talking about because that's the real Russian culture.

[00:20:32]>> Did you think it would open or did you think that it would, you know, be stopped because of the anger that there has been about this?

[00:20:44]>> I didn't think it would be stopped. I I understand that Russia has a significant soft power that they have built over a very long period of time and like anything we have to let go and many of my colleagues must let go of that Russian soft power and embrace the fact that we cannot remain so-called neutral by speaking to Russia still today. We have to see them for what they are. We have to read really what their cultural makers and decision makers are speaking about. Because if you read their words and you go in depth about how they look at culture, you would never be so innocently saying art is just a way of conversation. Because if you look at how Russia utilizes it, it is not. You know, I'm so disappointed about the people in general. I'm already used to the which is happening. People don't listen to Ukrainians. We ask sometimes very little thing. Let's Russian shut up until this war is going on. But people don't listen to us. And if somebody really has empathy, I'm surprised.

[00:22:05]So no comments.

[00:22:07]I already used that people really in general, not Ukrainians, not people who go through the same experience. We have many wars up to 20 armed conflict on our planet. They understand that when aggressor receive opportunity to speak up in the level of culture, it doesn't work with the country which is suffering.

[00:22:35]Uh our museum are bombed. We lose houses. Uh cultural uh things. Um our friends, my friends, artist also on the front line. Some of them already killed. I think on this background not the time to speak on the platform of culture. They have to I mean Russians they have to be busy with their own stuff. not to come to Venice. Where is the space to discuss um topics in art um for the countries which are not making chaos?

[00:23:21]>> Why do you think that they were permitted?

[00:23:24]>> I think uh artists can say anything. I think Russians pay money and the people who were involved for decisions just accept it and Russians they do have money.

[00:23:46]Yeah.

[00:23:56]Foreign speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.

[00:24:16]territory.

[00:24:33]There is the entrance to the bonali.

[00:24:37]And here is one of the Ukrainian pieces of art. This origami deer made of stone was originally in the cross somewhere that will be familiar to many of you.

[00:24:48]That's 600 km from this spot. And they've moved it here symbolically to make the point that the war is still going on, but also to underscore the consequences for art itself of Russian occupation. This was moved in haste because they knew it would be destroyed otherwise. And it still, you can see, bears the scars of the damage from when it was moved in order to first escape the Russians and then ultimately come here to the bonali. Yet only a few footsteps away, I find myself face to face with the Russian pavilion, recently restored and repainted mint green.

[00:25:29]We made it. We're outside of the Russia pavilion now. It's victory day and I'm very intrigued to see what other face Russia wants to present to the world. In a way, I think, as I always say, the medium is the message. The fact that they are here with those big letters pronouncing Russia is the real artistic message they want to send. Russia is back in the cultural fold of the Western world. But not everybody sees it that way. Because Russia owns the historic pavilion itself, constructed in 1914 and ironically paid for by a Ukrainian philanthropist during the imperial period. It needed only to notify the bonali of its participation. The move was not initiated by either the Venetian authorities or the Italian government, both of whom opposed it. Opposition quickly spread beyond Italy. The EU's cultural commissioner announced he would boycott the Bonali's May 9th opening in protest, while the European Commission withdrew 2 million euros in funding.

[00:26:35]Under mounting pressure, the Bonali jury declared it would not award prizes to artists representing states whose leaders face allegations or charges connected to crimes against humanity, an implicit reference to Russia and Israel.

[00:26:50]For many critics, however, that did not go far enough. The European Commission warned both Rome and the organizers of the bonali that permitting Russian participation risked breaching EU sanctions prohibiting the provision of services to the Kremlin. More than 70 parliamentarians from 29 countries signed a formal declaration calling on the Bonali's Foundation to reverse its decision. Eventually, the jury resigned on mass without publicly clarifying its reasons, and a compromise was reached.

[00:27:24]Russia's pavilion would remain closed to the general public and accessible only during the preview days of May 6th to the 8th. That's where a name familiar to many of you enters the story. [ __ ] Riotis.

[00:27:44]At the opening party for the Russian pavilion, where an open bar served vodka and prosecco to the pulse of rave music, a dramatic protest erupted led by the feminist art collective that first gained international notoriety through its confrontational punk performances against the Russian state. Its founder Naja Taliconikova along with two other members became globally known after being imprisoned in Russia for their activism.

[00:28:12]Wearing their now iconic brightly colored balaclavas, the group staged a protest outside the pavilion. I spoke to Naja to find out what happened next.

[00:28:21]>> I wanted to come back to this very raw sound of the punk music uh for this particular case because this is how I felt back in 2011 when um I was starting [ __ ] Red. The same anger, madness, and just desire to yell from every corner.

[00:28:41]Um so that's what we did. Um there were around 50 people who were able to get the passes and that was the whole issue honestly to get passes. It's funny and hypocritical that um Peter Angelo Buddha who says like the president of the panel says that everyone can come and protest, everyone can come and share their view.

[00:29:05]Um well, yeah, you can if you have €500, one single ticket um for the pre-opening of the um of the binal the days when Russia was performing.

[00:29:20]Um that's that's how much it cost. So it was really difficult to bring those people, but we were able to gather 50 participants and we performed a song. is called disobey a few times in front of the Russian pavilion with um balaclavas on our faces and the pink smoke.

[00:29:41]>> And what was the reaction of those in the pavilion and around it and the security in particular?

[00:29:48]>> It felt like the security was protecting the Russian pavilion.

[00:29:53]Um which was sad. There is a good phrase from my activist youth um that we would chant to cops to their faces.

[00:30:04]Don't serve the bastards police with the people and they could have chosen our side and help us carry the action but they were protecting the pavilion.

[00:30:17]Uh our idea, our initial thought was to perform the song for a couple of times and then get inside of the pavilion and stay there for a while and like kind of a sit in protest maybe for the entire day.

[00:30:32]But the pavilion closed the doors and the security including police including right police um kind of formed a chain a human chain around the pavilion in order not to let us come come through come in. As mentioned, it had already been decided that the pavilion itself would remain closed to the general public, but the Russians were allowed to still show fragments of the exhibition on screens outside. That exhibition was titled, "The tree is rooted in the sky, an idea inspired from Pushkin, whose work has at times been invoked by Russian forces to culturally legitimize the invasion of Ukraine. According to its organizers, the pavilion would feature dozens of musicians, poets, and philosophers meditating on how eternity prevails over momentary concerns. Most were Russian, though a number came from Africa and Latin America. Itself a revealing detail. The footage permitted to be shown had folk performers playing traditional instruments. But something felt off. On one of the screens, I noticed the unmistakable pink balaclavas associated with [ __ ] Riot. It appeared the pavilion had appropriated the very iconography of the protest staged against it the previous day. I'll let Naja take it over from here.

[00:31:56]>> I've discovered it the same day you did.

[00:32:00]It was um my colleague who was standing right with you. I mean that that's how we got connected because she told me that you might have better footage than she had cuz she had no no footage at all to be honest because she was just so surprised that the official Russian pavilion would ever show women in B clothes from what I have seen in your footage because I was already I was not in Venice then um it's some footage that they've done on their phones or something like filmed from possibly from inside of the pavilion. Um footage of the protest stripped of any political meaning. So there is no chanting slogans um no plards visible. So it it basically they just the imagery of Perat being used and that's why I looked at it as an attempt to co-opt it without with like at the same time removing any sort of political meaning that we brought to the Venice pinal. Um, there were a weird instance when a couple of people from inside of the Russian pavilion stole the masks that I've done with my own hands in my studio and brought them to Venice. I don't know how they got those masks, but there was a moment before the protest when we were just giving away the balaclavas to the volunteers and I think they probably saw it and joined and took the masks.

[00:33:39]and they were dancing to whatever weird tunes they were playing um inside of the Russian pavilion and uh so they were you know it's just so telling it and this ex exactly what Russia does it tills it looks um and it can't come up with anything original because originality and creativity can't really thrive in totalitarian state.

[00:34:08]>> Well, they say imitation is a form of flattery. Did you feel flattered?

[00:34:13]>> Not at all. I didn't care about those people. They're effectively dead to me.

[00:34:20]I don't give those people who who came from the side of the official Russia no like zero benefit of the doubt.

[00:34:30]Maybe some artists, they didn't know that they were used, but the people who are organizers haveing zero sympathy.

[00:34:38]Um, and I don't want to have any flattery from their side. They are personification of evil to me. I think you should just let them stay in Russia and marinate there in in their own weird rotten juice and never let them get out of their orc land, Mordor, whatever. And and and show their face in a civilized world >> after the um that new artwork as it were had been shown. I use artwork in the loosest possible uh uh use of that word.

[00:35:15]uh had been shown by the pavilion. What did you do next? Because you you shortly put out a statement after that.

[00:35:21]>> I wrote a statement saying that six months ago Russian government deemed Busherat as an extremist organ organization.

[00:35:32]Which means effectively if you spread any information about buserat or imagery connected with our movement, you can be put in jail for spreading extremist materials.

[00:35:44]And I pointed out to you the pavilion that they potentially exposed themselves to a criminal case.

[00:35:54]And to troll them further, I said that if in 24 hours you're not going to remove the footage from your dirty screens, I I'm going to write um a letter to the investigative committee of Russia saying that I I suspected there was a crime.

[00:36:13]And it's not like every I think that I mean I'm positive that they would never open a criminal case just because I said something because I'm the last person the Russian government will ever listen to. But I felt compelled to troll them and they responded to my trolling and uh in less than 24 hours they removed the footage. They claimed that they were censored by Butcherite. And it's funny because they admitted that we have enough power over Russia to be able to censor them.

[00:36:48]I find that flattering.

[00:36:51]>> After spending the rest of the day exploring the pavilions of the Giardini, a park created by Napoleon, and the Arsenal, the historic shipyard, I ended the evening looking more closely at those behind the Russian pavilion. What emerged was a network deeply entwined with the Russian state, a commissioner whose father spent decades in the KGB and the FSB, a Kremlin envoy decorated by Putin for his role in foreign policy, and a sanctioned billionaire whose gas company both supplies fuel to and recruits personnel for the Russian military. In response, Najar and others created an alternative pavilion titled Resistance Imprisoned in Strasborg. It features around 50 works by current and former political prisoners, artists, activists, and politicians jailed for anti-war descent alongside Ukrainian soldiers and civilians imprisoned in Russia. Many of the sketches were drawn hurriedly in detention and smuggled out of prison. Taken together, they offer a reminder of art's enduring function as a symbol of resistance.

[00:37:57]>> It um was a very bizarre feeling. Um it's it feels like Europe is forgetting its very recent past and then thinking about 2014 and when Russia invaded Ukraine for the first time and Russia next to Crimea and Europe reacted with sanctions and they were mad but they were meant for just few years and after that they they forgot and I think that's what led Putin to realizing if he can he can get away with a lot of wrongdoing and uh he invaded um it led to full scale invasion in uh 2022 and I'm afraid that something like that repeats again and um I understand it is difficult to be vigilant all the time the word is hard on everyone but it's harder than on more than anyone else, Ukrainians suffer from it and they suffer from it every single day. There are still childrens and mothers dying from everyday Russian attacks. And I don't think it's something we should forget. I think Russians are winning. They got exactly what they wanted. I think our action was effective, but it wasn't enough. And I mean, we are just a group of artists.

[00:39:24]We can't change the course of history, but we contribute. What really needs to happen is the Italian government to take it more seriously than they were taking it before to Europe to take it more seriously. And I know like a lot of really respected people and big politicians were doing statements against it, which is awesome. But there there's something to be done about this legally and Europe has to come together and say that it's not a place for Russian propaganda. Cuz the reason I'm saying Russia is winning, they claim that the Russian pavilion is closed right now, but you've seen it.

[00:40:04]It's not really. They're still showing the footage of it. They they're still spreading the propaganda. And what's the most important thing? They want to show the world that Russia is welcomed back.

[00:40:18]And it's just a part of this longer chain of events that we're going to be see unfolding.

[00:40:25]Um you already seen it at the Olympics, at Parolympics. Russian um um Russians are back. The Russian flag is um back at some um in some moments.

[00:40:41]And I think unless um Europe realizes that it's being exploited because Putin said it multiple times, he's waging the war not just with Ukraine but with the collective west with the idea of democracy. his biggest riv um rival in the entire world is not in particular country but the idea of democracy and that's what he punishes Ukraine for for choosing democratic paths.

[00:41:14]Putin is waging this hybrid war he's not going to stop.

[00:41:19]Well, I hope Europeans will understand that you have to stand up for your values because you're not living in a pink world with pink ponies.

[00:41:33]For years on Ukraine, the latest we've been reporting the activities of the resistance in the occupied territories.

[00:41:39]This is the memorial to the Venetian partisans who fought against the fascists in the Second World War. just a few hundred meters over there is the Russian pavilion which makes no reference at all to the war and in its opening has been allowed to present a different face to the world. I don't know about you but it makes me feel uncomfortable to say the least.

[00:42:11]Well, thanks again to everybody that I spoke to in Venice and to the team here for working on that film. Another film, Dom, is your prisoners of war film. Now, you and I at the time when you were in Leviv spoke about your encounter with Russian prisons of war and um we've now released that film. We'll have a link to that in the show notes, but today we're going to hear more from you about that shortly. Just set the scene for us again. So, this is one of five prison of war camps in Ukraine. This was in the west somewhere. I couldn't I wasn't allowed to say exactly where where we were. Um, this is a camp that houses those that have fought for Russia. So, not just Russians. There are a few um from South America, quite a few from Africa. They have had Europeans there before. And uh and we were able to uh to speak to a number of them. Um it it is tricky and controversial journalistic territory. It's tricky because these people are locked up. Um what are they going to say to us? Uh are they just going to say what they think we want to hear? So is it is it um is it interesting to the public? Very possibly. Is it in the public interest?

[00:43:19]May maybe not controversial because under the Geneva Conventions in 1949, they have to have their uh their dignity uh protected. they have to be uh protected against this phrase public curiosity which was written to stop them being paraded through the streets subject to abuse possibly violence that kind of thing. Um now obviously the telegraph is not a signary to the Geneva Convention. It's for it's for states but we took them to be a a reasonable moral handrail and if we uh if we stayed on the the correct side of the Geneva Conventions the journalism is probably in the right place. Um so uh in questions that I would have put to or I have put to other people and you have you have as well um that are that are supportive of the Russian position I couldn't really do that here. There could be no judgment no sort of very pointed uh why have you done that? Did you engage in war crimes etc etc. So I it was a bit uh I was I had to rely on their responses to give us and to give the listener and viewer an idea about their motivation and any sense of responsibility for their actions whatsoever. Uh and uh I don't think it's a plot spoiler to say that none of them showed any remorse showed any responsibility for their actions. I wouldn't necessarily have expected them to, but I was quite intrigued and surprised at the level of almost self-d delusion. They they uh they they were they were so so so mute.

[00:44:48]They had no voice. They have no agency.

[00:44:51]They are just a a porn at the the whim of the state. They they do what they told by by the leaders of Russia. These kind of things. So, you know, they didn't in fact one guy told us he's got he's got nothing against Ukrainians.

[00:45:02]They're very nice. They're quite sweet people. He said, I mean, it was absolutely extraordinary. I mean, so I would wanted to say to why did you choose to go there and try and kill them then? Yeah. I I didn't say that. I I opted to uh to not go into that sort of level of of um uh much more combative journalism. But anyway, I thought it was a very interesting visit. And after that, we then did uh travel somewhere away and went to Liv and spoke to a a Ukrainian who himself had been a prisoner of war. Although contrary to the Geneva Conventions, Russia is housing Ukrainian prisoners of war in regular jails. They're not supposed to be put in with with uh regular inmates.

[00:45:41]They uh they're supposed to have their own facilities. Um so Yevin spoke to us about his time in captivity and what happened to him afterwards. It was uh it was a very interesting very interesting chat. So if you're watching the video, you will now see see um part of that a short a short clip of that. And uh we'll put a link in the episode notes to the to the longer video. It's about 9 minutes or so, so it's not not massively long. You can spare the time. And thanks again to to Jack Leather for his work with this and to our uh and to our translator, Diana. We've reported pretty much every day on this war for the last four years.

[00:46:16]We've heard a lot of opinions supportive of the Russian case. However, the one voice we've never heard is that of the fighters themselves.

[00:46:25]We're at a camp in the west of Ukraine.

[00:46:27]I can't say exactly where, but it holds dozens of prisons of war who fought in Ukraine. Most are Russian, but there are also Europeans, South Americans, and many from Africa.

[00:46:41]Three young Russian soldiers took me to their cell to tell me about their experiences here and on the front line.

[00:46:47]They did not want to be named, but consented to being filmed.

[00:46:53]Two of the three young men in front of me had signed contracts with the Russian army to get out of jail. They knew they would have to fight in Ukraine. They now find themselves in prison again, but they told me that their treatment had been good on the whole.

[00:47:54]as Yes.

[00:48:20]Stormer.

[00:48:23]for What did you think would happened to you when you were captured?

[00:49:27]The young men had on rare occasions been able to communicate with their families through a phone call or letter. When I asked whether they would return to the front if released, they struggled to even understand the concept of having such a choice. If you are are exchanged, uh, you're still young, would you go and fight again?

[00:49:57]Before I left, the three men told me they had only had a few weeks training between them and were left to buy their own bulletproof vests.

[00:50:18]The lack of training and equipment was also something brought up by the next prisoner I spoke to, Shakmar, who fought for Russia but is from Azabaijan. What were you told would happen to you if you were taken prisoner?

[00:50:35]>> Were you told what to expect in Ukraine?

[00:50:47]Another prisoner I met, Alexander, was also reluctant to blame Russia for the ongoing war in Ukraine.

[00:51:17]Do you think your family and people at home in Russia understand what is happening in Ukraine?

[00:51:32]Has it been worth it for you? You you have survived, but you're in captivity now.

[00:51:55]The decision to leave the jail in Russia for you, was that a good decision?

[00:52:22]It's difficult to tell how much of this is a is a normal day and whether what we've been shown is the best face this camp could possibly put forward. I think I came away with two real thoughts.

[00:52:32]Firstly, the the dispondency. We were asked for cigarettes constantly. We were asked, could we take messages out? We were asked what's happening outside.

[00:52:40]What's happening in the war? How's it going to end? This real feeling that they've got no idea what's going on outside these walls. They're just cocooned there in their own sort of black hole almost.

[00:52:52]But more than that, I was left with this impression that there's no regret.

[00:52:57]Nobody here said that their choices had been poor choices or that they were mistaken for the for the path they had taken. When I asked the young lads and I said, "Look, you're you're young. You know, if you get exchanged, you could uh you could fight again." I said, "Would you would you go back to Ukraine and fight again?" And it was treated almost uh as an irrelevant question, like it wasn't up to them. They said, "Well, if the army says we go and fight, we'll go and fight." I thought that was very telling of their character and the system that they've come from and been formed by. Uh, and I thought it was quite chilling.